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BS: Are we alone?

Donuel 30 Apr 21 - 04:27 PM
McGrath of Harlow 30 Apr 21 - 05:03 PM
Mr Red 01 May 21 - 02:05 AM
robomatic 01 May 21 - 07:03 AM
Donuel 01 May 21 - 08:34 AM
Dave Hanson 01 May 21 - 09:13 AM
Bill D 01 May 21 - 10:06 AM
punkfolkrocker 01 May 21 - 10:13 AM
Mrrzy 01 May 21 - 11:17 AM
Bill D 02 May 21 - 10:35 AM
Steve Shaw 02 May 21 - 12:10 PM
Donuel 02 May 21 - 01:56 PM
Dave the Gnome 02 May 21 - 02:04 PM
Donuel 03 May 21 - 08:12 AM
Mrrzy 03 May 21 - 09:39 AM
gnu 06 May 21 - 08:51 AM
GUEST 06 May 21 - 06:23 PM
Donuel 07 May 21 - 08:06 AM
Donuel 08 May 21 - 02:47 PM
Steve Shaw 08 May 21 - 07:36 PM
Ebbie 10 May 21 - 02:07 PM
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punkfolkrocker 11 May 21 - 06:37 AM
The Sandman 11 May 21 - 07:14 AM
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robomatic 11 May 21 - 05:16 PM
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Subject: BS: Are we alone?
From: Donuel
Date: 30 Apr 21 - 04:27 PM

Are we alone?
No, but we're getting lonlier. The universe is probably about 15 billion years old but it has expanded perhaps 96 billion light years and its hard to say what is beyond the visible horizon. This concept is complicated further by saying the big bang happened everywhere when created space time was small. So for the last 10 billion years conscious life has had time to evolve in special places. The time to visit each other ould have happened when we all lived closer to one another in a smaller universe. The odds of a visit strikes me as becoming less likely with each passing day. There could be nearby neighbors or species that have no home to go back to, or reach if they tried.
Scientists say that the universe is not intuitive to our minds. Thats one way to look at it considering the truths of quantum mechqnics but lets look at the similarities. I say we are a universe in ourselves that is born from something very small. When we were eggs we were .2 millimeters at most, just barely visible to an adult. The universe was tiny too. We will die, so will the universe in a thinned out big chill.
We are not one individual but are actually many lifeforms in that half our body weight is countless millions of bacteria. The universe is also a conglomeration of countless stuff. We get bigger, so does the universe etc etc etc.

We are made from the universe and obviously share some of the big things that the universe also experiences as Rap recently mentioned, everybody poops.

Will we get along with aliens? Probably no better than we get along with people on line.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we alone?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 30 Apr 21 - 05:03 PM

The galaxy we're in isn't expanding, and it's a fair old size, so I wouldn't worry too much. Not that I think we're too likely to run into anyone else any day soon, if ever.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we alone?
From: Mr Red
Date: 01 May 21 - 02:05 AM

hard to say what is beyond the visible horizon

There was this school of thought that says: "what if light is bent by the passing of so much mass that we are seeing ourselves in the past?"
After all, History repeats itself.

And our view of the very very small is incomplete. There is a measured discrepancy at Fermi Labs and at Cern where scientists are now pondering if we have all the particles named and nailed-down. And they still don't know why gravity's force is so small by comparison with the others. And gravity takes us back to the bending light hypothesis.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we alone?
From: robomatic
Date: 01 May 21 - 07:03 AM

Either we're alone, and that is deep and incredible.

Or we're not alone, which is also deep and incredible.

If you're into the deep meta, it's win-win!


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we alone?
From: Donuel
Date: 01 May 21 - 08:34 AM

McGrath, Then we can rule out extragalacticans.
Red, cool.
robo, deep.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we alone?
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 01 May 21 - 09:13 AM

I am.


Dave H


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we alone?
From: Bill D
Date: 01 May 21 - 10:06 AM

Oh, I'd bet that in the vastness of time & space, there are.. and have been.. other 'beings' complex enough to ask the same question.

I also doubt the bet will ever be settled. I'd like to be wrong about never finding out..but...


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we alone?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 01 May 21 - 10:13 AM

I think We're alone Now


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we alone?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 01 May 21 - 11:17 AM

I like the math idea... Life is, apparently, likely anywhere within the Goldilocks zones for gravity, water and air. Multicellular life is highly unlikely. Intelligence, vanishingly rare, perhaps.

Planets in such zones may be vanishingly rare.

But this is a biiiiiiiiig universe. The chances of it having only happened once? Infinitesimal.

But the likelihood of us ever *encounter* such other intelligences, infinitesimal again.

So I don't worry about it. I just assume the galaxy is full of life but it's spread out and unlikely to encounter us.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we alone?
From: Bill D
Date: 02 May 21 - 10:35 AM

...and there are millions of galaxies....

I love science-fiction stories which posit FTL travel and speculation about what alien civilizations might be like.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we alone?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 May 21 - 12:10 PM

"The chances of it having only happened once? Infinitesimal."

I'm not so sure. It's a rock-solid bet that that any life in the universe progresses via evolution by natural selection. It took billions and billions of tiny steps over three billion years to progress from simple multicellular organisms to our advanced civilisation. Only a tiny percentage of planets will possess suitable materials and the environmental conditions needed to drive that process. It's about as likely as a chimpanzee randomly banging typewriter keys managing to type the Bible. But it is a very big universe.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we alone?
From: Donuel
Date: 02 May 21 - 01:56 PM

Actual scientific math shows the odds are most challenged by an encounter within the time frame of two co-existing civilizations over 10 billion years and not monkeys randomly typing the Bible.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we alone?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 02 May 21 - 02:04 PM

Depends who you mean by we and what you mean by alone.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we alone?
From: Donuel
Date: 03 May 21 - 08:12 AM

Good point. In a star trek movie 'we' meant whales.

Alone is silly when there are other conscious species right here on earth.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we alone?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 03 May 21 - 09:39 AM

We includes all terrestrial life. Is terrestrial life all the life there is? I doubt it. Are the terrestrial intelligence sall the intelligences there are? My guess is no but we'll never know. One guess, that.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we alone?
From: gnu
Date: 06 May 21 - 08:51 AM

I am alone. I like it that way.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we alone?
From: GUEST
Date: 06 May 21 - 06:23 PM

Suppose the probability of intelligent life (per unit volume) is zero. Then it still might have happened somewhere, and wherever it happened, there we would be. (If you fire a point bullet at a target, the probability of hitting a particular point is zero, but you are bound to hit some point if you hit the target at all.) However, the current picture seems to be that the whole universe is effectively infinite (the distant parts of the *observable* universe are winking out, but we are winking out from their point of view, and they can see stuff that we can't). But now, suppose that the probability of intelligent life is nonzero but extremely small. Then there might be no hope of finding another example in the observable universe, but almost surely (i.e., with probability 1) it has happened infinitely often, and in one of the places where it has, there we are. We cannot expect to distinguish these possibilities.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we alone?
From: Donuel
Date: 07 May 21 - 08:06 AM

Good thinking guest.
As tenacious as life has been on Earth while it has lived through lava hot impact eons as well as totally frozen snowball Earth millenias, it seems to me life is most certain to be elsewhere over a wider range of extremes than we can imagine.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we alone?
From: Donuel
Date: 08 May 21 - 02:47 PM

People familiar with Gaia have run accross Panpsychism. Physics gives us behavioral structure; panpsychism is a proposal about what underlies that behavioral structure. Think about a mathematical model in economics that’s just a bunch of equations that abstracts away from the concrete realities of labour, prices, etc. The reality of labour doesn’t add to the reality specified by that model - to the contrary, labour is the very thing one of those symbols refers to Similarly, according to panpsychism, physics gives us mathematical models that abstract away from the concrete reality of a universe filled with consciousness. The term ‘mass’ refers to something that physics characterises in terms of its behaviour but which in its intrinsic nature is a form of consciousness. If that view makes sense, then there’s no conflict with physics. There are all sorts of ways you could (and people do) challenge it, but IF consciousness is a fundamental reality then at some point physics will join panpsychism in a theory of everything. On the other hand if the universe is all inanimate and unconscious but the Earth is the only exception then everything is all physics and no consciousness. Meaning we are alone.
I doubt it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we alone?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 May 21 - 07:36 PM

What a load of obscurantist bollocks. Still, an entertaining read if nothing else.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we alone?
From: Ebbie
Date: 10 May 21 - 02:07 PM

My notion is that even if we are NOT alone, we would not/do not recognize it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we alone?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 May 21 - 08:22 PM

Without wishing to ponder this too narrowly, I think it's difficult to imagine life in any kind huge diversity and complexity existing that isn't predicated on liquid water and carbon compounds. The home planet must exist for millions of years, if not billions, in a Goldilocks zone. The atmosphere must be such as to protect evolving life from radiation from the parent star. And then life has to kick-start. Suppose everything is just right, but life doesn't kick-start. Or that some kind of photosynthetic process never evolves. I mean, the current thinking is that life on Earth started just once. I know that there are probably billions of planets that might fit the bill. We have no idea what the probability of that kick-start was. To get us from the slime of three or more billion years ago to where we are now required a multitude of fortuitous stops in evolution, any one of them not taking place potentially ruining the whole project. The Earth may well have changed drastically again and again, but evolution can keep up, once it's firing away. A big if. Big ifs all round. Humble life-forms of some kind might be arising in many parts of the universe. Getting from humble to here means a myriad cogs, all meshing in harmony for billions of years. I don't think there will be very many "advanced civilisations" out there at all.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we alone?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 May 21 - 08:49 PM

And I will post with my reading glasses on in future.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we alone?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 11 May 21 - 06:37 AM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SMoq9GoQmlE&ab_channel=RussellBrand



...??????????????????????????????????????????????????????????


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we alone?
From: The Sandman
Date: 11 May 21 - 07:14 AM

all the time i can play music i do not need aliens, thankyou for you consideration.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we alone?
From: Donuel
Date: 11 May 21 - 07:19 AM

I always thought red dwarf stars could have planets with life since they last longer than our sun but red dwarfs have violent episodes that makes trouble for life. Water acts like a solvent and is every where. It does seem best for life. Slow life would be possibly invisible to us as much as fast life so Ebbie sounds correct also.

Steve are you familiar with some of the strange aspects of water and how its crystals can make extraordinary beauty depending on exo-factors?
The science may be hooey but it almost seems it is influenced -gulp- by good thoughts.
I think the universe wants to be conscious. Even a cat is consious to an amazing degree. Bacteria has intention if not a kind of consciousness.
When I look at the mega scale pictures of the universe it looks like a microscopic picture of living tissue. That is as far as I can go when tip toeing into pseudo science or something called para this or that..


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we alone?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 May 21 - 07:50 AM

Water is an amazing solvent. It is liquid at temperatures that don't destroy organic molecules. It exhibits capillary action and surface tension. It starts to expand as the temperature drops below 4C (the calculation is that if water behaved "normally" in this regard, the oceans would be frozen solid from the bottom up and life on earth would be impossible). It has an amazing specific heat capacity. It facilitates chemical reactions in solution better than anything else. It is scarcely compressible in liquid form. It can exist as solid, liquid and gas all at the same time. Lotsastuff. I can't imagine any form of life other than extremely "primitive" that is not predicated on water. And don't get me started on carbon.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we alone?
From: Donuel
Date: 11 May 21 - 08:55 AM

Haha
I have never seen a grey or a mantis man but I have seen a suspected life form that amazed me, and my cat. Going full circle I posted here 20 years ago that two globes of light slowly passed through brick walls to reveal the surprise of my life. We are electrodynamic but these things were possibly 4 dimensional and electrodynamic life forms. My cat appeard it was responding to sound but I didn't hear anything. I jumped on the couch to touch one but I was too wary to stick my finger beyond the outer glowing diffuse nebulous shell. 2 meters behind the first globe, followed the second. We have all seen amazing lifeforms but this was a one off for me. I tried to follow them but I lost them when they passed through the opposite wall effortlessly and silently.
Afterwards I was very excited yet confused and my cat had puffed up double its size in this hair raising event.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we alone?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 May 21 - 09:36 AM

Ball lightning. I've seen it myself. An electric red glowing sphere as big as a beach ball drifting up the street at roof level. Lasted two minutes and vanished into Epping Forest. It left no trail but it did make a faint hissing sound. I was on my own and I can't prove it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we alone?
From: robomatic
Date: 11 May 21 - 05:16 PM

Hasn't our life on earth been defined as water getting to know itself?


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we alone?
From: Donuel
Date: 11 May 21 - 05:50 PM

cute robo
Ball lightning is the best Razor explanation but with no sulferous smell.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we alone?
From: Donuel
Date: 11 May 21 - 06:19 PM

https://www.britannica.com/story/does-ball-lightning-exist


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we alone?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 May 21 - 07:20 PM

What I saw was just after midnight on a sultry summer's evening in the early 80s. I'd gone outside to get my cat in (I'm having the same trouble this very evening). There was no-one else in the street to corroborate my claim. I asked around next day - nobody. Nary a drop had passed my lips. I know what I saw but I don't expect anyone to believe me. It can't have been anything else. By the way, there was a bit of what looked like smoke but the wind was in the wrong direction for me to smell anything. It was stunning experience but how good it would have been to have shared it...


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we alone?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 12 May 21 - 07:19 PM

"It's about as likely as a chimpanzee randomly banging typewriter keys managing to type the Bible."

That's essentially what actually happened. Close relatives of the chimpanzee, and actually typing it out came later, but that's just details.

These analogies can be deceptive. Bertrand Russell used the concept of a teapot in orbit round the sun as being a case of something the existence of which could not be disproved, but which was clearly impossible - and yet there are any number of teapots sitting on shelves in kitchens here on earth, and indubitably they are in orbit round the sun, along with their owners.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we alone?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 12 May 21 - 07:32 PM

I note that the common element between Steve and Donuel's ball lightning experience is the presence of a cat...


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we alone?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 May 21 - 08:01 PM

Well the cat (Pud was his name) was purely peripheral in my case! :-)


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we alone?
From: The Sandman
Date: 13 May 21 - 07:32 AM

I note that the common element between Steve and Donuel's ball lightning experience is the presence of a cat... a catastrophe


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we alone?
From: Donuel
Date: 13 May 21 - 08:35 AM

Bertrand Russel ALSO made references to the possibility of advanced physics being as far out as the far fringes of spiritualism.
This is a nod to what we call panpsychism today.

I have the freedom to change my mind and admit the materialism of particle physics is a dead. I have satirized, doubted and critisized it for decades. However tweeking it a bit can answer the oddities of quantum mechanics and the dead ends of math.

btw   the ease ball lightning has to pass through walls is creepy and why when I touched it did it not discharge? I admit I was not grounded.
My co witness was a Manx.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we alone?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 13 May 21 - 02:09 PM

I'll be really pissed off if we find out there is a god..

.. And it's a cat...

But that would explain the sheer irrationality and cruelty of the universe...


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we alone?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 May 21 - 03:25 PM

That would piss off all those dyslexic agnostics who lie awake worrying whether there's a dog...


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we alone?
From: Bill D
Date: 13 May 21 - 05:39 PM

Dyslexic, agnostic insomniacs.... *grin*. always loved that one!


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we alone?
From: Donuel
Date: 13 May 21 - 05:46 PM

I can not even imagine mankind believing in a universe that had both experienced as well as inexperienced electrons. Uniting panpsychism with physics works with the very small but I don't see a connection to the really big because I don't have any of the really big consciousnes... In materialism we can look at atoms, the sub atomic bits then field vectors and ever smaller bits down to theoretical strings in a never ending rabbit hole. With pure Panpsychism there is no duality or threshold but a animate quality in all the same stuff we can split into smaller pieces. A table will not have conciouness but is composed of stuff that has experience. ? !
Its like I am the tail of a pachyderm and have very little conception of the elephant but I am connected nonetheless even if I can never look Horton in the eye.

Some will object to any attempt to join physics with philosophy but its worth try without losing any sleep over it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we alone?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 13 May 21 - 08:40 PM

You're saying you're an elephant's arse..
Or just staring up one..???

One way of thinking about the meaning of existence, I suppose..

That reminds me, I've just rediscovered the magic mushroom pamphlet
I bought in a hippie shop back in 1979...


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we alone?
From: skarpi
Date: 14 May 21 - 02:50 AM

no we are not alone, have never been and never will.
we have been told a lie about our history on earth and things been hidden from us, any if some one is wondering why they dont conntact , they already have, but what would you do if the ET would stand in front of you , shoot first ask qestion s later or communicate in peace.

I would choose the second one , and dont forget that we are for other s ETs an Alien spieces living on earth in the Milkyway Galaxy.

all the best Skarpi


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we alone?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 May 21 - 12:32 PM

A better analogy than an elephant might be an octopus. There are so many neurones in all parts of an octopus that it's valid to think of the all parts of the body as. being in a sense parts of the brain, responsible for the goings on of that part of that part of the body, but very much involved with the activity of the whole creature.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we alone?
From: JHW
Date: 15 May 21 - 04:42 PM

The next nearest thing we're looking at now is Mars. Was there ever life there?
Maybe and maybe someone like us has already been and killed it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we alone?
From: Donuel
Date: 15 May 21 - 06:10 PM

McGrath, thats true but Horton is funnier to me.
Still an elephant's tail or an octopus tentacle does not have eyes.
To look upon the face of God in our universe might take a different universe and even then they might not see eye to eye


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we alone?
From: Donuel
Date: 16 May 21 - 07:52 PM

I would give the grand prize for the truthfulness award to skarpi.
Tonight 60 Minutes featured UAP and ATIP advanced radar pictures and more of what the rest of us call UFOs. 4 different types of craft were shown. 80,000 mph was clocked and G forces were assumed to be impossible for Earth beings.
Witnesses, politicians, restored investigation and policies werer most concerned with threat ssesmnt thansimpke realities.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we alone?
From: Donuel
Date: 17 May 21 - 07:12 AM

Pentagon admits ufos are real


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we alone?
From: Donuel
Date: 17 May 21 - 07:28 AM

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/ufo-military-intelligence-60-minutes-2021-05-16/


When I recently posted a political link between UFOs and the new administration some of you laughed. Its here.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we alone?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 17 May 21 - 11:53 AM

Ok mudcatters, maybe it's time to own up which ones of you are space aliens..

.. and that includes you alternative reality dimension aliens as well..

So why have you all been in deep hiding here, disguised as human folk music fans, for all these years ..???


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we alone?
From: Donuel
Date: 17 May 21 - 12:47 PM

duh! You guys are still dangerous in primitive nuclear ways.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we alone?
From: Bill D
Date: 17 May 21 - 06:47 PM

UFOs are, by definition unidentified. That does not automatically mean aliens. The SR-71 Blackbird used to bring UFO reports when it was tested in Nevada.

   I will wait.... although as a Sci-Fi fan, I hope they are genuine


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we alone?
From: Donuel
Date: 17 May 21 - 08:11 PM

Well they could be AI. Explanations of their tech based on ufo maneuvers has been around for 50 years. To produce no G forces the craft would have to be in a negative gravity field. Electromagnetic fields would have to be phenomenal. I would like to see where they are serviced. Maintanence free craft seems like an impossibility to me.

Why do they have the need for daily flights???

Bill is your tech really better than the US military?


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we alone?
From: Donuel
Date: 18 May 21 - 07:48 AM

At Northwestern I used to visit J.Allen Hynek at his home. Toward the end he was catagorizing various ufos by different charasteristics. That is virtually where we still are today. He was ahead of his time by the position he was thrust into. Most of us do not have a dog in the fight for the truth. Dr. Hynek did suffer for his quest and was disinvited to the American Academy of Scientists Convention by the now unknown status quo ass holes of his day.

As for 'the boys upstairs' they certainly have a perspective on us which is more tolerable over time than our perspective on them which could be summed up in a current populist phrase 'illegal aliens'.
They used to be gods who may or may not have helped or interacted with us. Perhaps in our time they know better.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we alone?
From: Donuel
Date: 18 May 21 - 02:37 PM

In defense of Bill's caution is that the US has had 2 seperate space programs since the 50's. You may have never heard of Dyna-Soar but they had their own one man space shuttle first.
NASA was the peaceful program and the other one was not. The early secret space program was mostly for cold war reconnaisence.
Trump declaring a new Space Force is an example of repetative redundancy.

Occam's Razor would likely come down on the side of the military hiding its right hand from the left hand. A third of the space shuttle missions were military and some are still classified.

So Bill are you saying the US is probably operating special craft globally or is another entity?


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we alone?
From: Bill D
Date: 18 May 21 - 03:23 PM

"Bill is your tech really better than the US military? "

"So Bill are you saying the US is probably operating special craft globally or is another entity? "

I'm not saying either of those things. I was very careful to say... UFO means unidentified.

   It's like religious questions to me. I don't **believe** in Gods or UFOs... that has nothing to do with denial OR acceptance.

The things is...I personally do not NEED answers in either case. If a very clear, obvious manifestation of either happened, I'd be fascinated, but ever since Roswell there have been claimed sightings of 'stuff'...and in the case of religious entities, for many centuries.
Most events are 'witnessed' by individuals or small groups... events seen by larger groups have many time been explained by various natural phenomena.

Repeating: I do not assign probability to any of them. I remain curious, but like the "Fair Witness" in Heinlein's "Stranger in a Strange Land", I report what **I** see and hear..


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we alone?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 May 21 - 06:39 PM

I'm not comfortable with "believe," Bill, as I've said many times in those "pete threads." ;-). "Believe" means "to accept, on balance, without evidence." The flip side is that "I don't believe" means that "I don't accept, on balance, though I haven't got the evidence." The debate is somewhat skewed, though, in favour of believers. To dig up the usual old chestnut, if you tell me that there is a chocolate teapot in orbit around Jupiter, it's pretty useless for me to say that I don't believe you. You'll simply tell me that I can't prove that you're wrong, which is true. You've succeeded in playing the game on my turf, so grrr. Far better for me to tell you that your claim is outlandish, and that, whilst there's a vanishingly-small prospect that it's true, I require evidence of the scientific kind (definitely not the religious kind), otherwise I'll just ignore you and have another beer. That's how I feel about UFOs. So, I neither believe nor not believe that they exist. I shrug until you can come up with something credible. The ball's in your court, not on my turf...


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we alone?
From: Donuel
Date: 18 May 21 - 07:10 PM

The US has reacted with a massive shrug and yawn. There was a day when the Rand think tank deduced that society and religions would be thrown into chaos. Since then there have been so many catastrophes that "ufos are real" is a page 10 story. Besides most folks expect the government was lying.

The 'belief' saga has always been a sideshow.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we alone?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 19 May 21 - 12:48 AM

Perhaps space aliens are still keeping quiet
because they are embarrassed about all that abducting and anal probing
back in the pre 'me too' era...???


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we alone?
From: EBarnacle
Date: 19 May 21 - 01:14 AM

The reality is that there have been too many reliable observations, both by Mk 1 eyeball attached to trained observers and by instruments. If the USAF is reopening Project Blue Book, they believe there is something worth investigating.
The next question is "How do we communicate with them?" Are we still too primitive?
An alternate hypothesis may be that these are the equivalent of alien teenagers having a good time and showing off for their girlfriends.
The one thing we can be sure of is that we are not alone.
The paranoid hypothesis is that they are military scouts keeping an eye on us. I hope not.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we alone?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 May 21 - 04:19 AM

Well there are plenty of "reliable" observations of ghosts too, but the final decisive clincher is always missing, as with flying saucers. They both make good yarns, and I'm all for that, but that's as far as it goes with me...for now....


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we alone?
From: Donuel
Date: 19 May 21 - 07:33 AM

There he goes again.
Just because you have an UNKNOWN cancerous tumor does not mean you do not have cancer. Unequivically the cameras, eyes and telescopes have proven real and physical objects but Joe Sixpack says I choose to ignore ignore reality. In the face of incontravertible proof the old world 'Deniers' be they climate, plastic pollution or UAP, are now silly outliers.

PS Project Bluebook is gone forever, ATIP is what has been reinstated.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we alone?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 May 21 - 07:40 AM

What a stupid comparison. That's surprising, even from you. :-)


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we alone?
From: Donuel
Date: 19 May 21 - 01:22 PM

"Unidentified cancer" is dramatic but its got balls.
Phrases like "old chestnut" are worn out and tedious.

regarding types of UAPs, I find the Dropa ships most intriguing and ancient. The upide down pyramid is new to me.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we alone?
From: EBarnacle
Date: 19 May 21 - 06:00 PM

The poin of my post is that a reasonably authoritative an responsible organization has accepted that there is likely to be merit to studying the question.
Whether you call it Project Bluebook, ATIP, SETI or Area 51, the question is being explored. In every one of these cases, the question is the same. How do we talk with them?


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we alone?
From: Donuel
Date: 19 May 21 - 08:49 PM

There seems to be plenty of 'body language' in their flight characteristics and mimicry of our flight paths. That tells us something.

We are going to have to make apparant freindly displays and gestures, then watch for response.

We have the tech to project motion picture holographic imagery in the sky. There are plenty of ways for us to take a first step.

Meanwhile social distancing is the rule.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we alone?
From: Donuel
Date: 19 May 21 - 09:08 PM

I wouldn't rule out prior encounters and "talk".

Raise my rent and call me Nancy if 'they' land and emerge looking like ancient Sumerians carrying a little purse in their left hand.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we alone?
From: Donuel
Date: 23 May 21 - 04:03 PM

700 G force at 13 times the speed of sound yet thre is no sonic boom are two clues at the unique travl of the clocked UAPs.

Anyone care to xplain how this could be possible?


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we alone?
From: Donuel
Date: 24 May 21 - 07:41 AM

I get the concern from physicists that technologically advanced extraterrestrials might behave as powerful human civilizations have in the past. But maybe the concerned physicists should engage a little more with social scientists. The assumption is that powerful, technologically advanced civilizations will act in a destructive manner. That is possible, but perhaps civilizations that reward destructive entrepreneurship are less likely to generate the technological wherewithal for interstellar travel. And if those UAPs are ETs, maybe there is more hope for interstellar relations than either scientists or science fiction envision.
If they are not organic but are like advanced AI self repairing drones that are not programed to break the prime directive, we may never have a "talk".


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we alone?
From: skarpi
Date: 24 May 21 - 04:45 PM

Hallo all ,
No, we are not alone, there is a question going on it is : who is walking among the humans , looking like human, but is not human ?
we are Et, why well , we live on Earth witch is in the Milky way Galaxy going through the Universe, but among us here on Earth are other ´s beings , only 10 % of our Ocean has been checked, so what s hiding down there , or on the dark site of the Moon, few years back I was taken, through the witch I called the tunnel of light, I did not understand this until later, and then I understood that we are not alone, there is also a world between the worlds, I cannot not explain it , yes I am from the land of Elf and Trolls
and the world of the Vikings , and though who knows me tell s me that I am
crazy to talk about this , well we the humans have lost out touch to our Mother Earth and to the Universe, your Americans Natives have still the touch, but most of the human s are to busy looking at the phone, computer´s and things that does not matter s at all, it´s the NOW that count´s not yesterday or Tomorrow, consciousness, love , peace, not hate or greed for power over people, when the humans get that, things will turn to the right for us . But that s me ,
I can only speak for my self, one day they will show them self among us .With all respect of what ever who ever think ,
all the best Skarpi from Iceland North Atlantic Ocean


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we alone?
From: Donuel
Date: 24 May 21 - 07:43 PM

While I can not share your certainty of exsistential realities, over time you have certainly progressed from an experiment with english to near fluency. Icelandic is considered to be the most difficult language for english speakers.
I'll give you this; metaphorical truth comes in strange packages.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we alone?
From: Ebbie
Date: 25 May 21 - 05:50 AM

What makes us think that that any visitors would be human? Humans don't have the biggest brain to body ratio and we are not necessarily the most effective in managing our home environment. We are illogical, petty and destructive every day of our lives, frankly, we barely get by.

And I still maintain that we need a third arm and hand.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we alone?
From: Donuel
Date: 25 May 21 - 09:24 AM

I know neutron stars more destructive than humans. Some of my best friends are human. :^}
What separates humans is education and talent.

On one hand we have humans like Martha
and on the other hand mental midgets


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we alone?
From: Donuel
Date: 25 May 21 - 10:58 AM

The new news about ufos is still the same old cold war stance. What has been done however is to remove the stigma that used to be suffered by innocent witness's.
Q Anon has their conspiracy thories about the military shift but I won't get into those.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we alone?
From: Bill D
Date: 26 May 21 - 01:59 PM

"And I still maintain that we need a third arm and hand."

Well, for sci-fi fans. there is The_Mote_in_God's_Eye
..and its overwhelming sequel The Gripping Hand

Long, engrossing stories, but with amazing detail & imagination.

"Robert A. Heinlein, while giving the authors extensive advice on a draft manuscript, described it as "a very important novel, possibly the best contact-with-aliens story ever written".[3] Theodore Sturgeon, writing in Galaxy, described The Mote in God's Eye as "one of the most engrossing tales I have encountered in years"


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we alone?
From: Donuel
Date: 26 May 21 - 02:34 PM

For second time since the thirties population growth has stopped and is retreating.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we alone?
From: Bill D
Date: 26 May 21 - 06:50 PM

??? The rate of growth has declined. I don't think overall growth has. Sources?


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we alone?
From: Donuel
Date: 27 May 21 - 04:52 AM

While some countries have already been on a downward path I'm sure a psndemic has influenced countries overall.

Game changers can happen all at one. Shell, Chevron and Exxon were court ordered to cut emmissions by 45% - within hours of each other yesterday.

The enevitable has to happen at some time.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we alone?
From: Ebbie
Date: 27 May 21 - 05:54 AM

Bill D - PM
Date: 26 May 21 - 01:59 PM

Interesting, Bill. I haven't read either of the books.

My innovation pictures the third hand curled up flat into the bosom when not in use. But just think what a lifesaver it would be!
'
My other proposal may not be as popular: I visualize one's head being able to lie on its side or even upside down on one's shoulders. Painting a ceiling would be a breeze.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we alone?
From: Donuel
Date: 27 May 21 - 05:00 PM

Extra arms just like the Independance day invaders?

If UAP's were of a domestic Earth origin, secrecy would be neccesary so their use in unimaginable crimes would prevent an assured getaway.
Tampering with space time can do things we could not catch with our best detectives or investigative reporters.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we alone?
From: EBarnacle
Date: 27 May 21 - 10:47 PM

Consider that we are not alone on this planet. There are those who say that dolphins and other cetaceans have been trying to communicate with us for centuries. Perhaps the "saucer people" are talking with them already.

Is it that much of a stretch to consider the possibility of visitors from elsewhere?


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we alone?
From: Donuel
Date: 27 May 21 - 11:20 PM

As in Star Trek movie "The voyage home"?


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we alone?
From: Donuel
Date: 27 May 21 - 11:43 PM

Space Time manipulation is beyond our imagination since we think of space in terms of being 3D but we think of time as a linear single dimension.
Why can't time have 3 dimenions as well. Past, present and future come to mind but I am thinking of a simultaneous 3D quality of time.
No not a time machine per se but nudging space and time to a limited degree so that the UAP's can appear to do impossible movements unrelated to propulsion or areodynamics.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we alone?
From: EBarnacle
Date: 28 May 21 - 12:52 AM

Magic is just science we don't understand yet.
We are all time travers, moving at one second per second--except for those who aren't. [Thank you, Spider Robinson.]
Donuel, the idea was around long before Star Trek.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we alone?
From: Ebbie
Date: 28 May 21 - 05:19 AM

: Donuel - PM
Date: 27 May 21 - 11:43 PM

I like to say that it wouldn't be so bad that life is short if only it were wider.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we alone?
From: Donuel
Date: 28 May 21 - 08:24 AM

hahahha but sometimes its thick.

No sarcasm intended with movie references. I didn't even know about the Tulsa massacre until I saw the movie Watcman on HBO.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we alone?
From: Donuel
Date: 30 May 21 - 08:17 AM

https://ui.adsabs.harvard.edu/abs/2011JBIS...64....3W/abstract


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we alone?
From: Donuel
Date: 05 Jun 21 - 10:14 AM

I participated in a radio show on WHAM Rochester NY and other smaller stations where we discussed ufo's and also belonged to a witness group subject to hypnosis interrogations. I met many of the pioneers so after talking to literally thousands of people including military, I had formed a solid opinion but admitted I had no hard evidence. Separating the frauds from the truthfully sincere was easy.
I did not want a career in the field to cloud my judgement so now at long last the truth I knew has been affirmed which is satisfying but still empty of substance. I don't think the pervasive silence from 'above' will change in my lifetime. I think they are smart to have been quiet but obvious for the last couple hundred years.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we alone?
From: Bill D
Date: 05 Jun 21 - 10:37 AM

Barack Obama was just interviewed about the recent UFO concerns. He stated that after taking office he did ask if there was any truth to the rumors of alien bodies and spacecraft hidden away at secret locations.

He says he was told "No!"... that there are no confirmed actual sightings. UFOs remain **unidentified**.
This, of course, will not satisfy many believers and those who assert "close encounters".

Me? I'll just wait....


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we alone?
From: Donuel
Date: 05 Jun 21 - 10:46 AM

Actually Obama was interviewed in May and affirmed actual sightings
https://www.cnn.com/2021/05/19/politics/barack-obama-ufos/index.html


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we alone?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Jun 21 - 11:52 AM

I wont even bother waiting, Bill. There are ideas which are far less daft with which to entertain myself. It's up there with the little people, the fairies, ghosts, Bill Gates and his vaccine microchips and God...


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we alone?
From: Donuel
Date: 07 Jun 21 - 06:52 AM

Steve will not even wait and prefers to ignore reality. For whatever reason Bill will sit on the fense for now. I am willing to climb the fense and look at demonstrations of advanced physics that may or may not be understandable to us.
Endemic to mankind is a long standing pandemic of ignoring reality however there is a long list of actual scientists who have had the courage to advance science for the sake of knowledge through out history, no matter how 'unpopular' reality is judged by the miniminds.

Some are forever in the minority like the Q crowd. Reality is viewed dimly by the Q crowd, and by golly ya ain't gonna change their minds neither. :^/


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we alone?
From: Donuel
Date: 09 Jun 21 - 10:57 AM

Harvard University astrophysicist Avi Loeb says the significance of the UAP Task Force report will depend on the evidence it discloses, which at the moment remains mostly unknown. “But this focus on past reports is misguided,” he says. “It would be prudent to progress forward with our finest instruments rather than examine past reports. Instead of focusing on documents that reflect decades-old technologies used by witnesses with no scientific expertise, it would be far better to deploy state-of-the-art recording devices, such as cameras or audio sensors, at the sites where the reports came from and search for unusual signals.”

Loeb goes a step further, saying he is willing to sign up to help unravel the UAP/UFO saga. “Personally, I will be glad to lead scientific inquiry into the nature of these reports and advise Congress accordingly,” he says. “This could take the form of a federally designated committee or a privately funded expedition. Its most important purpose would be to inject scientific rigor and credibility into the discussion.”

History lazily repeats itself in some circles.
For some seasoned investigators, such as William Hartmann, a senior scientist emeritus at the Planetary Science Institute, headquartered in Tucson, Ariz., the current dustup over an influential government report on UFOs is a reminder that, eventually, everything old becomes new again.

Hartmann was a photography consultant and a co-author of the University of Colorado UFO Project’s report Scientific Study of Unidentified Flying Objects. Funded by the U.S. Air Force from 1966 to 1968, that investigative effort was led by physicist Edward Condon, and it had dismal effects on subsequent scientific investigations. The extensive study of UFOs, Condon and his co-authors concluded, is simply not a fruitful field in which to seek major discoveries and “probably cannot be justified in the expectation that science will be advanced thereby.”

Reflecting on his work for the project, also called the Condon committee, Hartmann says that none of the photographic evidence he examined could establish anything extraordinary about the observed phenomena. “We proved that some of [the cases], including classic photos still being trotted out, were fake,” he says. “That fact alone makes it extremely difficult to apply straight scientific techniques because we know some, not necessarily all, of the data we were given were carefully prepared to delude us. [That is] not quite like astronomy, where we can assume that the photons coming through our telescope atop Mauna Kea in Hawaii are not put in there by a hoaxer.”

Deniers with their lies and false equivalancies are alive and well and will have to die of old age, like our own usual suspects, to allow unimpeded truth to flourish.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we alone?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 09 Jun 21 - 12:50 PM

What if they do make contact..
We find technological means to communicate..
.. and they turn out to be really boring conversationalists...???

The kind of folks we dread having to stand or sit next to at social gatherings...


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we alone?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 09 Jun 21 - 12:57 PM

"Mr President sir, our new alien visitor friends will not stop droning on and on about out how much superior their new spaceship is to last year's model.
They are completely oblivious to any hints it's time to end the meeting..
We are sick of looking at their holiday photos, our whole Earth delegation is exhausted and needs to sleep..
Surely it's time to send in special agent Donuel to outbore them into going home...
"


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we alone?
From: Bill D
Date: 09 Jun 21 - 01:59 PM

Obama said there are no ***confirmed*** instances of alien craft and that those who ought to know said we do NOT have alien bodies frozen away somewhere.
Of course there are daily reports of *U*FOs, and will always be. Things happens.. and now there are so many real things in orbit that more people will see things.

Let me know when one lands on you lawn and says "Klaatu_barada_nikto


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we alone?
From: Donuel
Date: 09 Jun 21 - 04:35 PM

Bill if you insist upon reporting only half of what the man said you should

All indications point to an alien conversation that would be so rapid in a concentrated time frame, compred to our sense of time, that humans would be totally reliant on nn app if we can come up with one. Their single syllable could be like a song with 42 stanzas but as boring as Vogon wav poetry about our insurpassible imbecility. Their sense of humor is primarily stupid human jokes much like our blonde or polock jokes. I think I would like them.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we alone?
From: Donuel
Date: 12 Jun 21 - 06:25 AM

Nothingissacredndthere isroom to pokefun at ufophenomena howevertheydo exist AND SO DOES NEGATIVE MATTER which could be key to ufo
propulsion. negative matter

Where would we find some? Its probably dark matter. Negative mass is an object whose existence is required by the law of the conservation of energy. The fundamental properties of negative mass can explain important characteristics of dark matter. 1) additional centripetal force effects, 2) explanations derived from fundamental principles about the reason why dark matter does not have electromagnetic interaction, 3) repulsive gravity ensuring almost even distribution and lower interaction of dark matter, 4) gravitational lens effect, 5) accelerating expansion of the universe can be explained with negative mass. Therefore, we should seriously examine the negative mass model.

To apply this notion to uap propulsion would involve an encapsulation of negative matter and applying a push upon it from various opposite directions to go in a desired direction.The technology would be fantastic to produce such a real time balancing act.

I am about new ideas and don't give a damn about credibility to people who can't imagine something new. Playing with forces that are essentially similar to gravity will have an effect on time and make
things even more interesting. :^O => :^o => :^.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we alone?
From: Donuel
Date: 12 Jun 21 - 07:47 AM

I too find deniers and nay sayers silly. As silly as saying since we haven't seen any moons elsewhere in the Universe they do not exist. Except in our solar system.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are politics being manipulated?
From: Donuel
Date: 12 Jun 21 - 03:02 PM

Based on 3 black and white "playstation" videos I'm not impressed.
Maybe thisisa political move as I predicted.

Adam Jentleson, a former top aide to Reid in the Senate, said that as the country moves its faith away from institutions, a growing openness to the paranormal makes sense — even if it is taking the unlikely form of bipartisanship toward UAPs.

“I can’t tell if this bodes well or ill for the direction of our democracy, but there’s certainly some irony around the fact that we can define bipartisanship around what used to be conspiracy theories,” Jentleson said. “Maybe the lesson is that we are expanding our imaginations and the full range of things that are possible. The possibilities of what the future may hold may be beyond the bounds of what a worldview circumscribed by norms can envision.”


Powell said the media’s depiction of UAPs has also evolved. “Most of the time in the past when the media highlighted what was then called a UFO-type incident, they really were highlighting a person who was really a little bit wacky and they were trying to get ratings.”

He pointed to Dennis J. Kucinich, the former Democratic congressman from Ohio, who was mocked during a 2008 Democratic presidential primary debate after being asked about a book by actress Shirley MacLaine, who wrote that Kucinich had seen a UFO while visiting MacLaine in Washington state and found the experience very moving.

“It was an unidentified flying object, okay?” Kucinich said when asked about the account. “It’s like, it’s unidentified. I saw something.”

But now, “this subject today is considered seriously by a lot of scientists,” Powell said.

After Obama expressed his openness to UAPs last month, Fox News’s Peter Doocy recounted the former president’s comments to Biden, and asked him what he thought. “I would ask him again,” Biden said, to laughter, brushing off the question.

In a White House briefing last week, press secretary Jen Psaki offered a more serious response to a question on the UAP report, saying, “We take reports of incursions into our airspace by any aircraft, identified or unidentified, very seriously and investigate each one.
Administration officials are unlikely to weigh in further on UAPs until the report’s release, a White House official said. This person added that Vice President Harris, in her role as head of the administration’s National Space Council, is also likely to be briefed on the findings before they are released.

Thanks to Trump-era covid relief bill, a UFO report may soon be public

The interest in UFOs shows how the extremes of the ideological spectrum can end up closer to each other than to any political center — not unlike the two prongs of a horseshoe.

“It’s like who was the viewership of the ‘X Files’ in the 90s?” Jentleson said. “If you saw someone walking down the street wearing an ‘X Files’ shirt, it was a coin flip as to whether they were going to be a hard-right conspiracy theorist or a hard-left conspiracy theorist.”

The idea of UAPs, he added, “unites conspiracy theorists of all ideological stripes,” born out of a shared “distrust of government and authority.”

A 2019 Gallup poll found that 33 percent of adults said they think some UFOs have been alien spacecraft visiting Earth from other planets or galaxies, while 60 percent said all sightings can be explained by human activity or natural phenomenon. The belief was largely bipartisan, with 32 percent of Democrats, 30 percent of Republicans and 38 percent of independents saying some UFOs have been alien spacecraft visiting Earth.

Both the Gallup poll and a more recent CBS News poll from this year found skepticism of the U.S. government’s handling of information on the issue. The 2021 CBS poll found 73 percent saying the U.S. government “knows more about UFOs than it is telling the general public,” as did 68 percent in the 2019 Gallup poll.

Steve Bassett is a registered lobbyist, political activist and “Disclosure” advocate — someone who pushes for the formal acknowledgment by heads of state of an extraterrestrial presence engaging with the human race. He argues that being more forthcoming about UAPs will serve to strengthen the credibility of the evidence and the government itself.

“The American people may hear from their government the biggest truth, ever relayed, in a formal way to the human race,” Bassett said. “Now if you’re going to start truth-telling, to regain trust, why not start with a big one?”

Scott Clement contributed to this report.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we alone?
From: Lighter
Date: 12 Jun 21 - 04:11 PM

"UFO" does not automatically mean "alien ship" or "alien intelligence."

It doesn't *not* mean it either.

Assuming that something truly mysterious is going on - as the Pentagon seems to be saying - alien intelligence (and especially "friendly aliens") is not necessarily the explanation.

There are many good reasons to doubt that UFOs are from "elsewhere." And every reason to doubt that they are all one thing, whatever they are.

But we don't know what we don't know. All we know is that some reports are baffling.

And, for now - as for the past 74 years (or more) - that's that.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we alone?
From: Donuel
Date: 12 Jun 21 - 06:35 PM

I find mysteries fun.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we alone?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Jun 21 - 07:17 PM

Reality is far more fun. Try it sometime.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we alone?
From: Donuel
Date: 22 Jun 21 - 08:25 AM

The disclosure of UAP by the Navy, as I predicted 4 months ago, is a politically based decision in reality. There was a social media call for truth for hundreds of people to storm the gates of area 51, starting as a joke. wiki
The pentagon in light of the insurrection at the Capitol, it was decided it would be best to toss the people some crumbs and buy time if not defuse a situation of using deadly force against the crowds.
Bill thinks people will always 'see things' and Steve thinks he has a lock on reality bless his heart, omni experts don't exist but these are pitiable pithy arguments in light of all the evidence presented for a very long time.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we alone?
From: Donuel
Date: 22 Jun 21 - 10:55 AM

May the Schwartz be with you. ;^}


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we alone?
From: Donuel
Date: 22 Jun 21 - 10:10 PM

I was a serious ufo resarcher for about 20 years. I confered and consulted with Dr. J Allan Hyneck, astrophysicist and chief of project Bluebook at his home several times. There has been hard factual evidence of exceptional craft but as for the 'organic alien pilots' virtually nothing substancial. I remotely confered with Dr.John Mack Harvard professor who explored the psychology of those who claim 'close encounters'(a Hyneck term) and I exposed researchers who used bad science and leading interrogations via hypnosis. In the loony fringes of a ufo community if you critisize one you are a threat to all the con men.
Nothing is sacred is my credo. John Mack was even handed in his approach and gave me an advanced copy of his book before he was killed during a UK visit in a pedestrian accident. Dr.Hyneck died of a similar brain cancer as John McCain but remained steadfast and passed the torch to many graciously till the end. Dr. Hyneck never had a sighting of extraordinary craft of his own. I have by some quirk of fate. But organic pilots? - NADA-ZIP-ZERO.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we alone?
From: Donuel
Date: 24 Jun 21 - 09:24 AM

For those interested there are are several names that you may not know but are crucial in knowing 90% more about uap pheenomena. They are 'Ben Rich, Philip Corso, John Callahan, Bigelo'.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we alone?
From: Bill D
Date: 24 Jun 21 - 10:03 AM

Most "uap pheenomena" are personal anecdotes about subjective experiences.

I am sure that most anecdotes are honest recounts of what someone experienced, but 1000 anecdotes do not = one solid bit of evidence. An 'experience' is not necessarily external.

There are thousands of anecdotes about religious visions, also. The human mind is a powerful thing and interpreting its own patterns is dealt with in Phenomenological philosophy.

note: I do NOT 'deny' the possible truth of real 'uap' or 'ufo' occurrences. I merely have followed the stories for about 65 years with hope that some WOULD be authenticated.
So far, none of the supposed musings and semi-denials and reluctant shrugs about possibilities from those who should know... if there is anything to be known.. pass the test. I've watched many TV programs and read about Roswell and Area 51 till I can't take any more.....
There was a 'famous' photo of 4 lights in the sky in formation many years ago. Some guy glued 4 cotton balls to his window and recreated the photo almost exactly... and so it goes.

Physics & chemistry are such that certain conditions WILL produce events leading to DNA and a lot of complex results.
   If I had an extra $, I'd bet that in billions of galaxies with 1023 stars, there are...or have been... other places with sentient life.
I'd also bet that none of them can overcome the limits of space/time that we find insurmountable. Maybe someday? *shrug* I think my $ is safe.

Over & out...


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we alone?
From: Donuel
Date: 24 Jun 21 - 11:40 AM

Another clue to UAPs is that they average 700 F while our Southwest airliner in summer averages 32 F in summer.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we alone?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Jun 21 - 11:45 AM

Good man, Bill. But will you keep Donuel's feet on the ground? Or is that as likely as having a chat with a real alien...or getting a visit from God in his chariot of fire...? :-)


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we alone?
From: Bill D
Date: 24 Jun 21 - 03:16 PM

Donuel has wide interests and an extremely complex set of life experiences. I can't 'keep' his feet..or his mind & attention... anywhere.
I do make comments when something anyone says pushes my "Oh-oh" buttons. Like Pete ******* and a few others.. (grin).
My mind is mostly elsewhere these days, as my wife's health has declined and she in in hospice care.
    Browsing Mudcat is a temporary escape from my daily efforts to prove Sisyphus wrong, but it seems there is more than one stone to push uphill...or perhaps a better metaphor is a plate spinner.

Anyway.. Donuel is on the way to a Mudcat record for most posts. He just has his own topics ...which do change over time. I really miss hid brilliant cartoons from years ago...

C'est la vie.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we alone?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Jun 21 - 05:34 PM

I'm sorry to hear that, Bill. Mrs Steve and I have both passed 70 now and the odd scare (unfounded so far, thankfully) reminds us of the potentially troublous times to come...


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we alone?
From: Donuel
Date: 24 Jun 21 - 05:59 PM

I was exposed to the same paradigms and mind sets as you guys but its not the 1950's anymore. Yes the pentagon lied back then and now after several Senate investigations they are admitting various types of extraordinary craft are monitored and deemed real-not illusory.
Are they lying now?
Its possible but unlikely.
At least that is a more savory arguement than Steve's.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we alone?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Jun 21 - 06:18 PM

I haven't got an argument. Joe thinks I have an argument against the existence of God. I haven't. All I want is to hear evidence. By evidence, I mean evidence that goes beyond hearsay, witness, sci-fi stories and received wisdom. Evidence that can leap that difficult high bar. Stuff that is repeatable, unarguable and able to be corroborated. You simply can't give us that about your ufos. No fuzzy-wuzzy photos or dodgy videos will cut it. No assertions from eminent but unqualified politicos. Your powers of imagination may well be admirable. But those who dabble in the true magic of reality are even more so.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we alone?
From: Bill D
Date: 24 Jun 21 - 08:34 PM

The Pentagon had stuff they NEEDED to keep secret...like at Groom Lake/Area 51... they would have lied, or at least dissembled.. when asked about odd sightings of aircraft.

My uncle did blueprints for Consolidated Vultee in San Diego in the 50s when the VTO planes were first revealed. He told me he'd known about that for several years... and that I wouldn't believe some of the secret stuff they were working on.
   Of course, that sort of stuff is still going on. There will always be secrets... but we 'usually' hear about them later.. like the Stealth stuff.
   Alien craft hidden at Area 51?   *shrug*.. that assumes that alien craft which can cross interstellar space can crash and be found and no real leaks about it... I am still waiting.......


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we alone?
From: Donuel
Date: 25 Jun 21 - 05:53 AM

While I am glad you have made it through the pandemic you both are missing the obvious and harbor worn out realities in that you can not accept the pentagon announcement that the ! craft ! are real.

For the same reason we had to avoid contact with each other is probably why contact is dangerous to not just us but to 'them'.
It explains alot. We all carry a micro biom of bacteria and virus. Even the bodies of dead animals including us in the dirt and melting ice are full of virus for eons. Its not so much War of the Worlds but war of the'germs'

Humans can manipulate mass and energy. They seem to manipulate space and time. There is debate that 'they' are us as Bill was hinting.
I find that argument on the narsicist side.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we alone?
From: Donuel
Date: 25 Jun 21 - 08:09 AM

An aside to Bill, I still contend that Pete was necessitated to have his anti evolutionary and other beliefs due to a personal long lasting tradgedy.
I also still do a 'daily' cartoon that comes about once a week. I just don't spend 2 hours making it with photoshop. I like making myself laugh be it a snide laugh, wide laugh or an 'oh my' snicker.

Questions about who what when and where are simple compared to WHY.
Maybe thats why you persisteently saw a wisdom in philosophy. There is a why I choose the path less traveled but lately its becoming a highway due to the internet. I have been called everything except a 'stogey old fogey'. Except when I try to use a %#*&^ smart phone.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we alone?
From: Bill D
Date: 25 Jun 21 - 09:42 AM

That final 'report' is due today, but nothing so far says "... the pentagon announcement that the ! craft ! are real." They just say that WE had no craft where these 'events' were reported. It doesn't assume there are **real craft**.

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/experts-weigh-in-on-pentagon-ufo-report/
"Although the task force’s unclassified assessment is not expected until June 25, the New York Times provided a cursory preview of its contents in an article on June 3. Citing anonymous senior officials familiar with the report’s contents, the story said that the assessment has come up short of explaining what UAP are and that it provides no evidence to link them with any putative alien visitation—despite reviewing more than 120 incidents from the past 20 years. The report’s firmest conclusion, it seems, is that the vast majority of UAP happenings and their surprising maneuvers are not caused by any U.S. advanced technology programs."

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/06/03/us/politics/ufos-sighting-alien-spacecraft-pentagon.html

"June 3, 2021

WASHINGTON — American intelligence officials have found no evidence that aerial phenomena witnessed by Navy pilots in recent years are alien spacecraft, but they still cannot explain the unusual movements that have mystified scientists and the military, according to senior administration officials briefed on the findings of a highly anticipated government report."

https://www.livescience.com/ufos-not-alien-spacecraft-pentagon-report.html {which includes the pic of the 4 "cotton ball craft" I mentioned before}

"A new report from U.S. intelligence officials claims that there's no evidence that the unidentified flying objects (UFOs) sighted in recent years — even objects that seemed to perform aerodynamic feats beyond the capabilities of human aircraft — are extraterrestrial in origin. "


'....wisdom in philosophy."

Philosophy doesn't (usually) deal with what is 'truth'.. it examines the logic and implications of assertions that claim truth. Occam's Razor, the Explosion Principal...various 'informal fallacies', etc. are used to put assertions to various tests for internal consistency.
It is **possible** for a seemingly amazing claims to BE true, even if arrived at by dubious premises... but this is not the usual outcome.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we alone?
From: Donuel
Date: 25 Jun 21 - 11:38 AM

While I posted those 3 links already consider if I had the tech to track you driving down Veirs Mill and your van reflected radar, your car temp was taken and your vehicle relected and emanated photons for a photograph, I would assume you are actually there. It would be accurate but incomplete to say there is only evidence your vehicle was there.
Technically we could split hairs.

When I said humans can manipulate energy and mass I mean we can convert/transmute one to another in both directions. We can make energetic explosions from mass or with energy we can seed and grow diamonds.
But we have to imagine if someone could convert/transmute space and time. We don't even think in those terms. But that is merely a simplified speculation that could explain some unknowns...
I am not saying we probably have evidence of how or why. I do know we have lots of who, when, where and bits of what.

Honestly I will never expect a 'final' report.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we alone?
From: Donuel
Date: 25 Jun 21 - 03:01 PM

It takes us 8 1/2 minutes to reach 5 miles per second and excape Earth's gravity. It takes a UAP about a second from our perspective, but what if it takes them about 8 minutes from their perspective inside a special field of manipulated time and space. We all understand relativistic time distortion orbiting a black hole but to have the time distortion without the incredible mass of a black hole is something I wish Asimov would explain.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we alone?
From: robomatic
Date: 25 Jun 21 - 03:14 PM

I wish you could ask him but I think if you did you'd find him unresponsive.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we alone?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Jun 21 - 03:41 PM

Here's the thing with you, Donuel. You don't check your facts and you play fast and loose. The escape velocity from Earth is a shade under seven miles per second. You said five. You tell us that you've studied these things for decades, etc. So what else do you say that can't be relied on?


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we alone?
From: Donuel
Date: 25 Jun 21 - 04:27 PM

Oh dear go back to your kitchen and beat eggs. Your vendetta has blinded you forever. Have an original thought or shuddup.

I was once trying to reach a famous author by phone and a secretaty said, "sorry he's dead right now"


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we alone?
From: Donuel
Date: 25 Jun 21 - 04:34 PM

weightless orbit is 5 miles/sec, 7 miles/sec breaks orbit and sends you 'elsewhere'.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we alone?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Jun 21 - 05:50 PM

Well five miles a second is certainly an original thought. No-one's had that one before. :-). At least my eggs are real. I know this: I've eaten six in the last forty-eight hours and I cracked them all myself...


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we alone?
From: Donuel
Date: 25 Jun 21 - 07:01 PM

In court you may hear the word 'argumento' which is a devil's advocate way of arguing for the sake of learning. I think others think an argument is akin to a fist fight.

Steve and I may break the same number of eggs but I usally just go for an omlette, he might make a souffle' but still prefer to critisize my omlette. Nutrition was my goal but it seems Steve has a different agenda. Vivre l'differance.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we alone?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 25 Jun 21 - 07:22 PM

.. is this about eggs, or ego...?

.. if the aliens are a lot smarter than us,
I hope they are not as obnoxiously conceited about it...


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we alone?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Jun 21 - 08:18 PM

....And I hope they realise that they'll never get away from the clutches of Planet Earth at five miles per second. They'll be doomed at that speed and we'll 'ave 'em. They won't won't like it up 'em is my theory...


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we alone?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Jun 21 - 08:20 PM

...Or maybe they will will...


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we kidding?
From: Donuel
Date: 26 Jun 21 - 01:46 AM

There are some things I can't divulge in a public forum still the things I can are hopeful such as the largest aliens are rather awkwardly insecure and are obcessed with doubts but they have good intentions and work hard. The smallest aliens are snooty like mean girls in high school.
Overall their eyelids do not blink in the wrong direction. Reports that they have no mouth or anus is incorrect, they are however virtually vestigal. Travel is often in excess of 1,000 miles per second in the upper atmosphere. In empty space, fuggetaboutit. They are secretive about recipes, especially their hot blood cheese. They are resigned to the inevitable norm of extinction so they are not a desperate lot despite millenium lifespans.. AND yes they have a darksidethatskindofcute.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we alone?
From: Ebbie
Date: 26 Jun 21 - 05:32 AM

Don, you "can't divulge in a public forum"? That is a red flag waved by charlatans, as I am sure you know. You lost a LOT of credibility there.

Bill, your news about your wife's health is devastating.
Like you, she is a special person and I love you both.

But on to my eccentricities:
Let me throw something really bizarre into this too, too erudite discussion.
What if the 'aliens' are amongst us - but are not from outer space or .... What if they are here but in our oceans or in our mountains/earth?
My benefides: At about 6:00 on a September morning I was almost at my home in the country. As I topped the hill, just before the road drops into the valley, I came to a stop because some thing somewhat torpedo- shaped traveled through the air not much higher than my car in front of me and as I watched, it rose to clear the tree tops to my right. There was what appeared to be colored flame inside the frame. I no longer remember the colors but I do remember white and blue.
I heard no sound; on the other hand my window was shut.
Bemused, I went on home barely another mile away. I decided that probably someone in the neighborhood had built something that he or she could set off and had chosen the early morning hour to avoid detection .
But then a few weeks later I met my brother at my parents' place a half mile or so from mine and I told him what I had seen. He looked at me funny and said that he and Dad were out mending fence the summer before when the same thing that I described went past them and straight into the front of the heavily wooded and steep loaf of mountain across the road from our dad's place. He said it didn't 'crash' into the mountain but that it seemed to just enter it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we alone?
From: Donuel
Date: 26 Jun 21 - 10:59 PM

its called a setup for a joke
https://www.nytimes.com/2021/06/24/books/ufo-books.html


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we alone?
From: Donuel
Date: 30 Jun 21 - 12:52 PM

The few talents I have helped me explore the esoteric. People who have the usual recognized talents help them see the universe in a conceited and narcissistic pov. It is evident in the divided opinions here. Truth however is not democratic.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we alone?
From: robomatic
Date: 30 Jun 21 - 02:40 PM

Dontrumpuel:

I love your similarity to the past lamented President and your ability to justify whatever BS you spout or have spouted. I've issued non sequitors with more hair on their chest than all of your softcore aphorisms laid end to end.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we alone?
From: robomatic
Date: 30 Jun 21 - 06:15 PM

Donald Rumsfeld passed today. He it was who made the famous statement, which was sometimes used against him, that "there are known knowns":

Reports that say that something hasn't happened are always interesting to me, because as we know, there are known knowns; there are things we know we know. We also know there are known unknowns; that is to say we know there are some things we do not know. But there are also unknown unknowns—the ones we don't know we don't know. And if one looks throughout the history of our country and other free countries, it is the latter category that tends to be the difficult ones.

Similarly, there are people who think they know what they're talking about, people who know what they are talking about, people who know they don't know what they're talking about, and people who don't know they don't know what they're talking about. This last case is often referred to in whole or in part as an example of the Dunning-Kruger effect

We have by no means exhausted the topic. There are the BSers, those who simply want to be paid attention to, or believed, for the time being. One such well known sample was Rush Limbaugh of blessed memory. I tend to regard 'the newt' Gingrich as another example, but I have not amassed evidence to that effect. And there are the online charmers who will say anything to appear to be of interest, or relevant, topical, engaging, consciencious, moral, etc. etc. There is a great history of success with this tactic in the United States. At least one recent President achieved placement with this technique and he may very well keep trying it. So aren't we lucky to have our own variant right here in this forum, in this thread even.

But I don't think he's a Delta variant. Yet.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we alone?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Jun 21 - 08:18 PM

You got it... ;-)

No tears shed this end for that particular Donald. Neocon arsehole....


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we alone?
From: Donuel
Date: 01 Jul 21 - 09:48 AM

I hope to never see the Omega variant or another damned (not blessed) Rush Limbaugh or Rummy.
I've noticed that Bill's pov is identical to Walter Chronkite in 1965. What we are dicussing is really two seperate questions. One is what are those objects seen by eyes, radar and other sensors? The other question is who or what directs them?
We should not arrogantly dismiss all explanations. Even Neil Degrass Dyson dimisses all evidence before cell phones by looking at only military releases of grainy monochromatic video. He says we need better evidence. I used to play the skeptic on public media like Hyneck but like him I too changed my mind over time. It was not a suspension of belief but by a preponderence of evidence.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we alone?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 01 Jul 21 - 11:31 AM

So.. what's the problem...???

It aint that difficult for ordinary intelligent folks to be healthily open minded,
and skeptical at the same time...


'They' might exist - I hope they do..

Though I'd prefer it if they are friendly, musical, and not tedious egotists...


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we alone?
From: Donuel
Date: 01 Jul 21 - 12:33 PM

I loved the musical part of the Spilberg Close Encounter movie.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_yIp2huYgD8


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_reported_UFO_sightings


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we alone?
From: Bill D
Date: 01 Jul 21 - 01:04 PM

My POV?? You fail to provide a link or quote from Walter Cronkite (no H).
My POV, as stated several times, is simply waiting for evidence... and a bit of "The burden of proof is on the assertor." Spell check says it doesn't recognize assertor... but...this clarifies it.

https://www.logicalfallacies.org/burden-of-proof.html


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we alone?
From: Donuel
Date: 01 Jul 21 - 03:39 PM

auroas


A show called ufos friend foe or fantasy aired in 1965 hosted by Walter.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we alone?
From: Bill D
Date: 01 Jul 21 - 07:15 PM

A giant, colorful image of Saturn tells me nothing about his POV.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we alone?
From: Donuel
Date: 02 Jul 21 - 07:24 AM

Walter Chronkite was always distinguished, polite, and no nonsense.
Surely you don't mind a societal status quo comparison?
And I'm NOT calling you Shirley.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we alone?
From: Bill D
Date: 02 Jul 21 - 09:20 AM

Mind? Not if it's relevant to the discussion. I try to be polite with only occasional nonsense. But Walter's view of UFOs WAS the point.


...and again.. where did you get the 'h'? It's Cronkite.
It's important when doing searches.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we alone?
From: Donuel
Date: 02 Jul 21 - 09:43 AM

I viewed the introduction to 'UFOs Friend, Foe or Fantasy' on MSNBC on 'The Beat with Ari Melber' 3 days ago. His guests were former CIA director Brennon and astronomer Dyson. The similarities of attitudes is of course my opinion but I enjoy the discourse of burdon of proof which is also fundamental in the philosophy of LAW.
The show was a fair and interesting discussion, especially Brennon.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we alone?
From: Donuel
Date: 02 Jul 21 - 05:53 PM

In law eyewitness testimony is given a great weight but in science it is the lowest form of proof. Dr. Tyson


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we alone?
From: Bill D
Date: 02 Jul 21 - 07:27 PM

Yes... makes perfect sense. Law & science are different realms. Science can sometimes aid legal investigations, but eyewitnesses ..the more who agree, the merrier... are often crucial. It all depends on what question is being asked. I'm still working my way thru that interview and exposition to sort out exactly how Tyson explains it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we alone?
From: Donuel
Date: 02 Jul 21 - 08:47 PM

The Tyson link is a GREAT link into understanding dimensions and inspires insight into picturing the shape of our curved space universe. This link makes quick work what took me years to piece together after I had an unusual sighting in Rochester NY.
Its taken 40 years but I can now visualize a hypercube easily.

aside:
I always felt this was an open universe but evidence is working against my initial early guess.

Right now I am thinking about imaginary time in a early universe where gravity and density does not allow for normal time as we know it now. Its a different way of expressing inflation theory.

ps My new lap top has me amazed how much easier it is to text.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we alone?
From: Donuel
Date: 04 Jul 21 - 11:54 AM

There is a current meme that asks why are there so few cell phone images of UAP?

I have to laugh that an intelligence that can use space/time and mass/energy to propel craft would not know of our technology spread of cell phone cameras. It seems they have made adjustments to encounter rules.

They seem to say through their silence that its good for you to know we exist but don't call us, we'll call you. I also believe we have become more beligerant in the last 80 years from their perspective.
Bottom line is we probably have proved ourselves recently untrustworthy.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we alone?
From: skarpi
Date: 05 Jul 21 - 03:20 PM

Are we alone ?
NO we are not .
all the best Skarpi


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we alone?
From: Donuel
Date: 05 Jul 21 - 04:11 PM

If you are an indoor persom you may never have had the experience of finding life everywhere you look. When it comes to in, on and around Earth its everywhere. There are even fish deep underground below Death Valley.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we alone?
From: Bill D
Date: 05 Jul 21 - 08:37 PM

Don..."I have to laugh that an intelligence that can use space/time and mass/energy to propel craft would not know of our technology spread of cell phone cameras."

   Sounds like certain 'proofs of God'. And resembles the story of the 100 MPG carburetor that was rumored in the 50s and of it 60s. Of course no one could find the plans or a model of it... the oil companies hid them! Speculation about 'alien intelligence' that seems to already posit it is a prime example of a logical fallacy.
I repeat. I hope we DO find some... but I'll wait.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we alone?
From: Donuel
Date: 06 Jul 21 - 10:37 AM

Bill I am honest when I tell you sometimes I wish that I could afford the luxury of my early skepticism or that the 4 visual experiences and one audible phenomena had not happened to me. That this topic is just a 5,000 old hoax of history. That it did not resemble a proof of God fallacy. That there is not a different take on intelligent life because we are the only game in town but I can't.

I know our own experience is more important to ourselves than to other people or that coincidence has a major role to play in our billions of interactions. When we consider Kruger Dunning its amazing we can agree on anything at all. There are certain realities we can agree upon but they are usually the self centered ones.

I will remind you of Carl Sagan's book Contact when Ellie appearded before Congress with no evidence and is justifiably criticised despite withheld evidence. While the character was more passionate and invested, I too can not abandon the personal reality of my collective experience. I would sooner claim love is a total delusion.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we alone?
From: Donuel
Date: 06 Jul 21 - 02:11 PM

5,000 year old hoax of history?
probably older.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we alone?
From: Bill D
Date: 06 Jul 21 - 03:40 PM

No one can doubt that you... or anyone ... had personal 'experiences'.

We just cannot base general public knowledge on them unless they are some combination of replicable, recordable, predictible, and coherently explainable.

The "Miracle at Lourdes" was a personable experience of two young girls who 'saw' a religious vision. People WANTED to believe it.

It can be hard to distinguish a vivid dream from an "Out of the Body" experience.. and from a near-death experience. (I once had a vivid dream about a friend from high school that had me composing an anxious letter... until I realized that the details were fading as I wrote.) And 12 eyewitness reports of traffic accidents, shootings and UFOs can vary widely.... which is one reason police body cams and other digital monitoring equipment is becoming popular. Right now I can't remember if you ever posted any details of YOUR experiences, but if you experienced something, I cannot doubt that you are recounting things honestly. Neither can I take your honest report at face value.

   There are so many things that can be the source or 'cause' of an experience that sorting genuinely possible events from old hoaxes and honest mistakes is a never ending task.

I will continue to **doubt** but not to directly **deny**.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we alone?
From: Donuel
Date: 06 Jul 21 - 04:33 PM

We are in agreement except that a retrospective view of any state of consciousness reveals what it was - be it a dream or other.

PS I once found an original Beethoven scrape manuscript that I began to transcribe to see if I could alter or enhance when I noticed that the note I would write would dissolve after I wrote it,
because it was a dream. It wasn't hard to discern the unreality.


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Subject: RE: BS: Are we alone?
From: Bill D
Date: 06 Jul 21 - 06:46 PM

Yes.. a " retrospective view" of an event tells us most of what we need to know about it...except causality and accuracy.... that is, whether our senses were deceived in any way. Senses and memories are often times confused, and we know that eyewitnesses of events DO disagree--as in Jan. 6th.

Discerning UNreality is one thing. Clarifying reality is usually much harder.


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