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BS: The New Non Voting America

Donuel 01 Apr 21 - 04:42 PM
Donuel 01 Apr 21 - 05:01 PM
Steve Shaw 01 Apr 21 - 05:22 PM
Donuel 01 Apr 21 - 06:35 PM
Steve Shaw 01 Apr 21 - 07:32 PM
McGrath of Harlow 01 Apr 21 - 07:56 PM
Joe Offer 01 Apr 21 - 08:21 PM
Steve Shaw 01 Apr 21 - 08:37 PM
McGrath of Harlow 01 Apr 21 - 09:06 PM
Steve Shaw 01 Apr 21 - 09:15 PM
Donuel 02 Apr 21 - 12:05 AM
Bonzo3legs 02 Apr 21 - 02:51 AM
Steve Shaw 02 Apr 21 - 06:13 AM
Bill D 02 Apr 21 - 10:23 AM
Bill D 02 Apr 21 - 10:55 AM
Bonzo3legs 02 Apr 21 - 11:39 AM
Steve Shaw 02 Apr 21 - 11:49 AM
McGrath of Harlow 02 Apr 21 - 03:41 PM
Helen 02 Apr 21 - 04:36 PM
Joe Offer 02 Apr 21 - 04:51 PM
Helen 02 Apr 21 - 05:34 PM
Steve Shaw 02 Apr 21 - 06:02 PM
Bill D 02 Apr 21 - 07:12 PM
Bill D 02 Apr 21 - 07:17 PM
Steve Shaw 02 Apr 21 - 08:00 PM
McGrath of Harlow 02 Apr 21 - 08:02 PM
McGrath of Harlow 02 Apr 21 - 08:05 PM
Bill D 02 Apr 21 - 08:37 PM
McGrath of Harlow 02 Apr 21 - 08:55 PM
Bill D 02 Apr 21 - 09:22 PM
McGrath of Harlow 02 Apr 21 - 09:44 PM
Bill D 02 Apr 21 - 09:51 PM
Joe Offer 02 Apr 21 - 10:11 PM
Helen 03 Apr 21 - 01:06 AM
beardedbruce 03 Apr 21 - 02:00 PM
Bill D 03 Apr 21 - 02:38 PM
beardedbruce 03 Apr 21 - 03:02 PM
Bill D 03 Apr 21 - 05:07 PM
McGrath of Harlow 03 Apr 21 - 07:29 PM
Donuel 04 Apr 21 - 08:09 AM
McGrath of Harlow 04 Apr 21 - 08:52 AM
Bill D 04 Apr 21 - 09:24 AM
Donuel 04 Apr 21 - 10:05 AM
Donuel 04 Apr 21 - 10:50 AM
Steve Shaw 04 Apr 21 - 10:59 AM
Donuel 05 Apr 21 - 07:28 AM
beardedbruce 07 Apr 21 - 09:04 AM
beardedbruce 07 Apr 21 - 09:16 AM
beardedbruce 07 Apr 21 - 09:19 AM
Jeri 07 Apr 21 - 09:22 AM
Stilly River Sage 07 Apr 21 - 11:24 AM
robomatic 07 Apr 21 - 07:37 PM
Donuel 08 Apr 21 - 05:41 AM
beardedbruce 08 Apr 21 - 08:02 PM
robomatic 08 Apr 21 - 09:18 PM
Stilly River Sage 08 Apr 21 - 11:41 PM
Donuel 09 Apr 21 - 03:22 PM
Steve Shaw 09 Apr 21 - 05:30 PM
Bill D 09 Apr 21 - 06:54 PM
beardedbruce 09 Apr 21 - 08:29 PM
beardedbruce 09 Apr 21 - 08:31 PM
Bill D 09 Apr 21 - 09:09 PM
beardedbruce 10 Apr 21 - 08:00 AM
beardedbruce 10 Apr 21 - 08:06 AM
beardedbruce 10 Apr 21 - 08:13 AM
beardedbruce 10 Apr 21 - 08:17 AM
Donuel 10 Apr 21 - 08:52 AM
Donuel 10 Apr 21 - 09:05 AM
Donuel 10 Apr 21 - 09:35 AM
Bill D 10 Apr 21 - 10:59 AM
beardedbruce 10 Apr 21 - 05:58 PM
beardedbruce 10 Apr 21 - 06:31 PM
Bill D 10 Apr 21 - 10:17 PM
Steve Shaw 11 Apr 21 - 08:41 AM
beardedbruce 11 Apr 21 - 09:03 AM
Backwoodsman 11 Apr 21 - 09:05 AM
beardedbruce 11 Apr 21 - 09:38 AM
Jeri 11 Apr 21 - 09:40 AM
beardedbruce 11 Apr 21 - 09:47 AM
Stilly River Sage 11 Apr 21 - 10:29 AM
Jeri 11 Apr 21 - 10:45 AM
Donuel 11 Apr 21 - 11:26 AM
Bill D 11 Apr 21 - 11:59 AM
McGrath of Harlow 11 Apr 21 - 12:07 PM
Bill D 11 Apr 21 - 01:44 PM
Stilly River Sage 11 Apr 21 - 02:08 PM
Bill D 11 Apr 21 - 02:27 PM
Stilly River Sage 11 Apr 21 - 02:37 PM
Stilly River Sage 11 Apr 21 - 03:40 PM
Steve Shaw 11 Apr 21 - 03:56 PM
Donuel 11 Apr 21 - 07:00 PM
McGrath of Harlow 11 Apr 21 - 07:14 PM
Bill D 11 Apr 21 - 09:17 PM
Donuel 12 Apr 21 - 06:57 AM
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Subject: BS: The No Black Voting America
From: Donuel
Date: 01 Apr 21 - 04:42 PM

For the last 5 weeks One Hundred and Eight proposed laws in 43 States have limited the right to vote for whites only. I have held my keyboard tongue these last two months hoping anyone would mention this as a post or topic but the silence besmirches the existing mudcat participation.
Georgia is the first state to actually pass these new anti democratic laws. Most people are not so busy as to have this national Republican crime miss their straight ahead gaze.
Boycots of Coco Cola and Delta are the first of many corporations who currently support the new voting laws. My disappoinment in mudcat does not include the many true democratic Americans here. Brits are off the hook since their price of fish is of major concern. ;^/
No mention of the Chauvin trial either,
or the 6 mass shootings or
asian hate attacks thats
Very white of u


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Subject: RE: BS: The New Non Voting America
From: Donuel
Date: 01 Apr 21 - 05:01 PM

I consider calling 911 or using a camera in response to wrongdoing to be a duty among civil citizens. To physically intervene when we can is our next duty to civilization. For evil to succeed only requires the silence of good people.


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Subject: RE: BS: The New Non Voting America
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 Apr 21 - 05:22 PM

"...the silence besmirches the existing mudcat participation."

No it doesn't. For starters, you need to expand on the accusation of enforced whites-only voting. Second, there are huge numbers of topics on which the few people who post below the line are "silent." The rape of rainforest to grow beef, soya and palm oil. The low price of gasoline in the US engendering extreme inefficiency and pollution in road transport. The fact that a country with five percent of the world population produces at least 18% of the world's carbon emissions. Extreme inequality in the world's richest nations. The western world's obesity crisis. The repression of millions of Uighur Muslims in China. The wrecking of democracy in Hong Kong and Burma. So come off it. You start a topic if you want it discussed. You'll usually get takers. Don't pretend that our not mentioning these things all the time or any of the time is our deficiency. You haven't a clue as to what we discuss, and with whom, in our non-Mudcat lives, thank you.


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Subject: RE: BS: The New Non Voting America
From: Donuel
Date: 01 Apr 21 - 06:35 PM

You put yourself back on the hook so.. Imperialist geezers like your self outsourced your racism to the countries Britain exploited. If you are truly distracted by the price of gas, ride a bike.
Bigotry runs silent deep and invisible to the ones who really are bigoted. Others are loud and proud. My opinion shouldn't bother you.


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Subject: RE: BS: The New Non Voting America
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 Apr 21 - 07:32 PM

You're such a bloody idiot that your rude, insulting post was expected, and was no less risible than your other recent silly offerings. Talk to yourself and stop insulting other members of Mudcat, many of whom are far better people than you.


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Subject: RE: BS: The New Non Voting America
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 01 Apr 21 - 07:56 PM

This appears to be a private fight. The kind of thing that so often gets in the way of potentially interesting and even useful discussions.


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Subject: RE: BS: The New Non Voting America
From: Joe Offer
Date: 01 Apr 21 - 08:21 PM

I got a meme yesterday that demanded a boycott of CocaCola. As far as I can see, the only offense by CocaCola, is to be located in Georgia. Same with Delta Airlines. Pretty stupid reason for a boycott. Please remember that the good people of Georgia elected TWO Democratic senators and a Democratic President.

There's another meme circulating for a boycott of Home Depot because one of the company's founders was a major contributor to Donald Trump. Trouble is, the offender left the company in 2002. Another stupid reason for a boycott.

Boycotts are a powerful tools, but they should be used sparingly and only for very clear and important reasons. Stupid boycotts diminish the power of this very important tool. On top of that, they bring down ridicule on the very cause they are intended to support.

That being said, the laws manipulating voters are insidious indeed. They are part of a well-planned campaign by Republicans to manipulate elections, a campaign that has gone on for most of three decades. Most of these voter suppression tactics would have been illegal under the Voting Rights Act of 1965, but a Supreme Court decision gutted that Act in 2013.

We desperately need the U.S. Senate to pass the For the People Act, H.R. 1. This Act will restore and protect the rights of voters. It won't fix everything, but it's a good start.


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Subject: RE: BS: The New Non Voting America
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 Apr 21 - 08:37 PM

Thank you for at least giving us something to get hold of, Joe, unlike the guy who started the thread. Kevin, I'm not going to do private wars, but this chap has a habit of being unable to accept any criticisms of his half-assed and obscurantist posts without having a dig. A man with big problems. Anyway, I'll be having a look at Georgia tomorrow, thanks to Joe's interesting post, and only that. And kudos to those Mudcatters who take on the issues of the world below the line. We often get it wrong but "silent" we are not. And we can't do everything. Why the hell should we?


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Subject: RE: BS: The New Non Voting America
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 01 Apr 21 - 09:06 PM

Best thing when you're not into private wars is not to take part in them. "It's easy if you try". Of course sometimes it's the trying that is hard.
................

I imagine that the proposed act Joe recommends is only too liable to come unstuck with the Supreme Court you are stuck with. Skimming through the summary of that link to it there are so many elements in it that it won't be too hard for a Supreme Court which is liable to be hostile to strike it down.

Something simpler might have more chance. How about some law requiring that there should be a place for voting within walking distance of everybody?

And why complicate matters by including statehood for Washington DC in a wider act? Surely that's a pretty simple measure that just needs the Senate to vote for it?


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Subject: RE: BS: The New Non Voting America
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 Apr 21 - 09:15 PM

I cruise gently through life knowing that taking on idiots is usually futile, but every now and then the prince of misinformation spouts nonsense that shouldn't really be left unsorted. That's all. If you were to display the same bad behaviour I'd be on to you too.


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Subject: RE: BS: The New Non Voting America
From: Donuel
Date: 02 Apr 21 - 12:05 AM

Its no longer April fools day. No meaness intended but the US is still god awful racist.


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Subject: RE: BS: The New Non Voting America
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 02 Apr 21 - 02:51 AM

I thought Boycott was a cricketer!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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Subject: RE: BS: The New Non Voting America
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Apr 21 - 06:13 AM

We have discussed here before the fact that poorer people - which often and disproportionately means black people - are frequently almost disenfranchised, or, at best, strongly discouraged from voting in the US. Felony laws, inadequate networks of polling stations leading to queuing to vote for hours on end in poorer areas, then being turned away when voting time runs out, strict ID rules, etc, all discriminate against black people. If that's what we're talking about, it is not a new discussion here. If you are really saying that blatant new laws to prevent black people from voting are proposed, well let's be having chapter and verse. I've had a quick look just now and I can find what I've just said, that's all.


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Subject: RE: BS: The New Non Voting America
From: Bill D
Date: 02 Apr 21 - 10:23 AM

Steve... there are so many new attempts to restrict voting that I can't possibly list them all. Here's a quote from CBS news:

"The Brennan Center, which has been tracking voting law proposals across the country, found that lawmakers in 47 states have introduced 361 bills that would restrict voting access. Of those restrictive bills, at least 55 are currently moving through legislatures in 24 states. So far, 29 of them have passed one chamber, while 26 of them have made it through a committee vote. Overall, five bills have been signed into law, including Georgia's last week."

Many of these are states that had fairly recently created easier access to polls, including vote by mail, absentee voting, dropboxes, etc. Now most states where the legislature & governor are Republican have had 2nd thoughts about easier voting when they see that this brings out more minorities... and thus Democrats.
   Lawsuits are already being filed to counter these obviously attempts. (I see TV news about this almost every day.)
   It is clear that IF free, easy voting is allowed everywhere, demographics have changed.. and continue to change... that would gradually break the stranglehold very conservative states have on their poor and minority citizens.

   Georgia is already getting serious backlash over its blatant attempt. It simply takes time for things to work their way thru the courts.


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Subject: RE: BS: The New Non Voting America
From: Bill D
Date: 02 Apr 21 - 10:55 AM

If you can see this site, there are more details:
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/voting-laws-georgia-texas-arizona-florida/


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Subject: RE: BS: The New Non Voting America
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 02 Apr 21 - 11:39 AM

It seems that the usa is full of absolute wankers!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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Subject: RE: BS: The New Non Voting America
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Apr 21 - 11:49 AM

Well I don't live in your country and I find it difficult to glean precise motives for wanting to change voting laws in the ways that I've seen described (I read your link, Bill). If there is a feeling that voting is not secure and vulnerable to fraud, then you have to do something. The trick for a civilised country is to be extremely sensitive to the unintended consequences of each change in the law and not rush through clumsy measures that make it harder for minorities to share in your democracy. If the system isn't broke, and the consequences are intended, then we can start accusing people of racism, covert or not so covert. I'm not over there so you'll have to tell me what's what. Is it OK if I choose who to listen to? ;-)


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Subject: RE: BS: The New Non Voting America
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 02 Apr 21 - 03:41 PM

When the result isn't what you want, the temptation is to claim that means that means the system is wrong.

So if your candidate loses by eight million votes, the obvious answer is to find a way of getting those eight million to stop voting, if you know there is no realistic way to get them to vote the other way.

Though of course you don't need to get the whole eight million. A few thousand voters in the right places could fix the problem.


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Subject: RE: BS: The New Non Voting America
From: Helen
Date: 02 Apr 21 - 04:36 PM

Donuel, for a lot of the past year, I have not only been watching Australian ABC-TV news, and reading it online, but also watching ABC America news and PBS news on TV, so I have been keeping up with the latest developments in the U.S.

I have to say that the reason I have not raised the issues you listed here is that I thought I couldn't be any more shocked than I was already until I heard about the Republicans' proposed changes in voting laws.

I do believe that it is deliberately targeting the poorer people and people of colour because as McGrath of Harlow said:

"So if your candidate loses by eight million votes, the obvious answer is to find a way of getting those eight million to stop voting, if you know there is no realistic way to get them to vote the other way."

Some of the proposals I have heard include closing voting at 5pm, and as voting occurs on a weekday (why??!!) then people who are in workplaces without flexibility cannot go and stand at a polling station during working hours and risk losing their job, and also volunteers are not allowed to hand out water bottles to the people standing in line. And of course mail-in and pre-poll voting processes are under attack as well, even to the extent of placing drop boxes *inside* the polling place so that the voters still have to stand in line to place their vote in a box.

And another proposed change that I have heard is that proof of identity is being required, or the requirements are being severely tightened, which sounds like common sense on the surface, but I believe that it is more difficult for poorer people including poorer African-Americans to obtain proof of identity. Correct me if I am wrong on that.

Then there was a segment showing historical measures - no longer in place - to put pressure on poorer people and people of colour by requiring a (very convoluted and idiotically difficult) literacy test before being able to register to vote.

I keep saying, in relation to the U.S., "how low can you go?" and then I am shocked, totally gobsmacked, by the next development, and then the next and the next.

I am crossing my fingers hoping that Derek Chauvin is convicted of murdering Mr Floyd, and that the racist attacks against Asian people are reined in, and that firearms laws might finally be sensibly tightened, but more than anything else I am hoping and praying that the whole voting and election process of the U.S. is taken under control at a federal level to stop the whims and caprices of whoever is in control of each state from coercing and controlling the citizens of the U.S. especially when this is based on discrimination against poor people, people of colour, or any other classifications that these legislators choose to target.

Thanks, Donuel, for raising these issues.


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Subject: RE: BS: The New Non Voting America
From: Joe Offer
Date: 02 Apr 21 - 04:51 PM

Steve Shaw says: If there is a feeling that voting is not secure and vulnerable to fraud, then you have to do something.

I suppose it's true that this "feeling" exists. Many Republicans are still convinced that Joe Biden was fraudulently elected. The trouble is, this "feeling" was something that has been methodically instilled by the Republican Party over a number of years, and especially by Donald Trump throughout 2020. This propaganda has instilled a belief that there are individuals from the unwashed masses all over the country who are voting fraudulently. Trump also alleged that there was fraud in the 2016 and 2018 elections, and launched an investigation of the 2016 election that determined that there was no fraud.

We Democrats also think there's fraud, and the fraud we allege is that Republican legislators all over the country are enacting laws to make it more difficult for the unwashed masses to vote. We haven't called it fraud, but that's what it is.

So, we're at an impasse.

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: BS: The New Non Voting America
From: Helen
Date: 02 Apr 21 - 05:34 PM

Joe Biden has a huge task already, with the other challenges of recent years. Unless he is superhuman, and especially not having a good majority of Democrats, I can't see the election process being overhauled in the near future.

However, I have always believed that the worst perps i.e. The Trumpster in this case, can often bring about change in the opposite direction that they intended just by opening people's eyes to what is really happening.


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Subject: RE: BS: The New Non Voting America
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Apr 21 - 06:02 PM

Joe, when I say that if there's a feeling, I need to be a bit more precise. I am not referring to conspiracy theories. I'm talking about genuine concerns expressed among responsible people who takes measured views.


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Subject: RE: BS: The New Non Voting America
From: Bill D
Date: 02 Apr 21 - 07:12 PM

Steve.. as Joe Offer and McGrath said, the perceived remedy among many Republicans for losing an important election is to allow politicians to choose their voters, rather than the 'natural way'.

Yes, a country should be able to "do something about" such attempts.
Our problem with this is that, like gun laws, we have this awkward bit called "states rights" left over from the original constitution. It is VERY hard to pass laws that apply to ALL states. (There is, right now a bill, already passed by the House, but doubtful in the Senate... that filibuster thing..., that would set certain standards for some voting procedures.
It is really hard for most countries to grasp what an interesting hole we dug in the past that allows individual states to do things counter to the majority. There are a couple of Constitutional amendments that we need to create.. and get approved BY the very states that don't WANT to give up their independence.
Biden and his friends are working very hard to find ways around this... and as I said, we do have some hope of various courts saying "These voting restrictions are simply unfair!"

WE shall see.


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Subject: RE: BS: The New Non Voting America
From: Bill D
Date: 02 Apr 21 - 07:17 PM

BTW... Georgia, where this election was won and where the 1st stupid attempts to restrict voting began, is also home to some major advertisers and companies.
Plus, major league baseball has just taken the annual All-Star game away from them. Pressure may do what laws cannot.


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Subject: RE: BS: The New Non Voting America
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Apr 21 - 08:00 PM

Cheers, Bill. Your perspective is very valuable.


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Subject: RE: BS: The New Non Voting America
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 02 Apr 21 - 08:02 PM

To get rid of the filibuster, as I understand it, all they need do is get a vote in the Senate to do that. It's not like it's in the Constitution or anything. But that can't be done because that would be prevented by means of a filibuster.

It's only in recent years that it has become anything more than on odd political oddity that came out of tfe cupboard for use by rather eccentric Senators.

If even a handful of Republican senators had any kind of respect for democracy or indeed self-respect, it would have been written off years ago. But of course that's a bit of a pipe dream in present day politics.

In principle the way to defeat these efforts to corrupt the electoral process would be for the Supreme Court to determine that they are unconstitutional, which does appear to be the case for some of them at very least - but with the present stacked Supreme Court that seems pretty unlikely.

in principle however, if the President were to recalibrate the Supreme Court by increasing it that would only need a simple majority to approve the, because a ciu0le of years ago tge Reoublicans
.


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Subject: RE: BS: The New Non Voting America
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 02 Apr 21 - 08:05 PM

... took away the possibility of using the Filibuster to block a Supreme Court Justice being approved. But I can't see that scenario working out.


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Subject: RE: BS: The New Non Voting America
From: Bill D
Date: 02 Apr 21 - 08:37 PM

Kevin.. the big problem is that one 'Democratic' senator Joe Manchin, is from West Virginia, and opposes getting rid of the filibuster. It makes it an interesting dilemma. There are hints that Biden 'may' be working to find something that Manchin can live with... but.... :>(


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Subject: RE: BS: The New Non Voting America
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 02 Apr 21 - 08:55 PM

But surely even if Manchin did back down, and vote to abolish the filibuster, there wouldn't be a filibuster proof majority in the Senate. And that would still be the case if the DC and Puerto Rico were admitted as States, and the Democrats had four more Senators.

Pretty foolproof block. Rather analogous to the block on electoral reform in the UK to get some kind of electoral reform, which is that by definition any government is likely to in power only because it was elected by the present system.


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Subject: RE: BS: The New Non Voting America
From: Bill D
Date: 02 Apr 21 - 09:22 PM

One idea is to go back to a "talking filibuster" like they used to require. Right now, any senator can just announce they won't allow a vote, and nothing happens. If they had to stand up and actually talk to delay a vote, there would be fewer delays.
-------------------------------------------------------
Regarding the other issue, here's the New Your Times today:

"The league’s decision comes as other states are moving closer to passing new laws that would further restrict voting. In Texas, the State Senate passed a bill this week that would limit early voting hours, ban drive-through voting, add restrictions to absentee voting, and make it illegal for local election officials to mail absentee ballot applications to voters, even if they qualify. In Florida, the State Legislature has introduced a bill that would severely limit drop boxes.

A fight is now intensifying over the Texas bill: American Airlines and Dell Technologies this week voiced their opposition to the legislation, taking stands that major companies in Georgia like Delta and Coca-Cola declined to do until after the law there was passed. Michael Dell, the chief executive of the Texas-based company that bears his name, said on Thursday that “free, fair, equitable access to voting is the foundation of American democracy” and noted that “those rights — especially for women, communities of color — have been hard-earned.” Republicans have shrugged off that criticism so far."


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Subject: RE: BS: The New Non Voting America
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 02 Apr 21 - 09:44 PM

Going back to the real, filibuster, like in Mr Smith goes to Washington, would be at least more entertaining. How many Senators would have the stamina to manage that? I gather Biden favours a return to the traditional way of doing it.

Maybe there should be a movie about a marathon filibuster in which Senator after Senator collapses with exhaustion. "They Shoot Horses, Don't They 2"


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Subject: RE: BS: The New Non Voting America
From: Bill D
Date: 02 Apr 21 - 09:51 PM

Well, in theory, a filibuster should be serious statement to gain attention to a serious matter.... not a routine maneuver to slow your opponents' agenda. It was seldom used much until they put the new rule in. I'd love to it go back to former times.

I don't 'think' any of it would allow just taking turns for days.


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Subject: RE: BS: The New Non Voting America
From: Joe Offer
Date: 02 Apr 21 - 10:11 PM

Well, I think "feeling" is a fairly accurate term. Even among the most rational of Republicans, there is an uneasy feeling that the electoral process is corrupt. I worked as a federal election observer under the Voting Rights Act, so I've had the chance to watch elections quite closely. All over the nation, election officials take their jobs very seriously, and take great pride in their integrity. They don't use the photo ID that lots of Republicans demand, but their systems of identity verification are quite effective. And after years of accusations of election fraud, the Trump Administration had a thorough investigation of the 2016 election and found very few problems - a questioned ballot or two here or there, but certainly not enough to affect an election. But Trump keeps crying fraud, and his constant harping has succeeded in undermining the trust that people have in the election process.

But there IS a problem with the wholesale suppression of voters that is done out in the open by party officials. Both parties are guilty, but particularly the Republicans. The philosophy is, "If we have the power, we're gonna use it to help us keep it."

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: BS: The New Non Voting America
From: Helen
Date: 03 Apr 21 - 01:06 AM

Bill D said:

"Plus, major league baseball has just taken the annual All-Star game away from them. Pressure may do what laws cannot."

Yep. Good strategy. Hit them where it hurts them the most: in the hip pocket nerve.

What I've learned about Republicans from the last four years is that "money talks".


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Subject: RE: BS: The New Non Voting America
From: beardedbruce
Date: 03 Apr 21 - 02:00 PM

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/coastal-progressives-your-boycott-of-georgia-is-hurting-our-cause-opinion/ar-BB1fflaJ?ocid=mse


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Subject: RE: BS: The New Non Voting America
From: Bill D
Date: 03 Apr 21 - 02:38 PM

The author of that is an independent writer whose business is "having opinions". His concern, while sounding serious, is mostly speculation of the "slippery-slope" variety. There is little likelihood of a general 'boycott of Georgia'. Some pressure by certain interests to protest an obvious racist set of laws will most likely be temporary, and may help to right a wrong.
No doubt, some hoped for $$$$$ during the All Star game will be disappointing, but that is not an annual thing, and can be given back to Atlanta in the future...if....


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Subject: RE: BS: The New Non Voting America
From: beardedbruce
Date: 03 Apr 21 - 03:02 PM

From the article

"And trust me, that help is needed and wanted by those of us on the left who live in red America. We cannot simply boycott every time a Republican legislature passes an oppressive law. These states are our homes. Not only is not spending money an impossible proposition, but we do not want to see our communities suffer any more than they already are. We want to make them better.

As one Hoosier I spoke with in 2015 put it, "I do not want anyone to boycott Indiana. I want them to come here to help us."

I hope people will heed his words, and the words of Stacey Abrams and Bernice King, and stop this talk of boycotting Georgia. Punishing red states for passing bad laws might seem like good politics from New York or Los Angeles, but it actually harms those of us living in and working to make these states fairer, more equitable places. Progressive Georgians need your money and your support now more than ever.

It seems the devil went down to Georgia on a road paved with good intentions. Help us show him out."


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Subject: RE: BS: The New Non Voting America
From: Bill D
Date: 03 Apr 21 - 05:07 PM

I read the article....


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Subject: RE: BS: The New Non Voting America
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 03 Apr 21 - 07:29 PM

I read that in 43 states in the USA there are proposals in the pipeline which make voting harder, and which would be likely to particularly affect black people.

Why is Georgia being picked out as the one to boycott?


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Subject: RE: BS: The New Non Voting America
From: Donuel
Date: 04 Apr 21 - 08:09 AM

Helen, When I watch the news I am amazed that Australia is virtually Pandemic free and Mass shooting free which both have good reasons behind it. Nutty leaders aside Oz has it going on.


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Subject: RE: BS: The New Non Voting America
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 04 Apr 21 - 08:52 AM

Australia took advantage of thefact its an island country in the same way every other island country in the world did, Resulting in a much smaller death rate from tge pandemic. The only island country on the planet which didn't was the UK, and we paid the price, with almost the highest death rate, even higher than the States.


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Subject: RE: BS: The New Non Voting America
From: Bill D
Date: 04 Apr 21 - 09:24 AM

Georgia was the first to pass those laws... probably because it was the state which finally handed Biden the win and gave him the Senate. It also has probably the worst Republican governor and a legislature to back him... a very awkward situation when its voters went for Biden and 2 senators.
Other states...like Texas & Florida... said "Oh, what a good idea!"


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Subject: RE: BS: The New Non Voting America
From: Donuel
Date: 04 Apr 21 - 10:05 AM

The World's foremost authority on the United States, Steve Shaw, reported today on FNN Fake News Network that Marijuana laws are changing so rapidly in Virginia that police report that "traffic is moving so slowly it is difficult to get cars to travel the speed limit. Trucks are a different matter". Also Steve Shaw has lost his bid to be the Repugnacan candidate for US 'Presient' having been born on a tramp steamer in the middle of the English Channel. ...This just in, Steve Shaw denies it was a tramp steamer but said it was The Queen Mary. It was on the Queen Mary II that he renewed his vows with the Captain presiding over the ceremony along with an unknown distant Beethoven descendent.
"there's always room for good fun"
quote: Bill Cosby


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Subject: RE: BS: The New Non Voting America
From: Donuel
Date: 04 Apr 21 - 10:50 AM

I would not be surprised if some states try to require black people to litterally vote with their feet.


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Subject: RE: BS: The New Non Voting America
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Apr 21 - 10:59 AM

Do something useful. Go and take a long walk on a short pier.


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Subject: RE: BS: The New Non Voting America
From: Donuel
Date: 05 Apr 21 - 07:28 AM

The changes on the voting laws shoukd be judged by what is the Republican intent. On the surface the new proposed laws are not that bad.
They do take away the authority of the Secretary of State and gives it to the legislature.
The NYT has investigated and says it doesn't change turnout.
The devil is usually in the details. The Donald was rebuffed by the Sectary uf the State of Georgia so perhaps intimidating legislatures is perceived as being easier.

I am sad the donald has in a sense politicized Baseball as well as Football.

Correction: Coke and Delta are on the protest side of the new election laws.


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Subject: RE: BS: The New Non Voting America
From: beardedbruce
Date: 07 Apr 21 - 09:04 AM

In case one wants to verify the facts on the new Georgia law, instead of judging based on Donuel's somewhat warped version:

https://news.yahoo.com/georgia-voting-fact-checking-claims-230025392.html

https://news.yahoo.com/setting-record-straight-georgia-voter-164658566.html

"In his statement, Biden also alleged that the new law “ends voting hours early.” Even the left-leaning Washington Post agreed that wasn’t true, giving the claim four Pinocchios and saying “there’s no evidence that is the case.”

The reality is that Georgia remains a national leader in access to the polls.

Georgia has the most successful automatic voter-registration program in the country. Automatically registering eligible voters through the Georgia Department of Driver Services, which confirms citizenship prior to registration, makes it easier for eligible voters to vote, and ensures that election officials have accurate, up-to-date information. Notably, President Biden’s home state of Delaware does not offer this to voters.

Stacey Abrams is pushing for just 15 days of early voting, below the 16 days Georgia has offered its voters for years. SB 202 has built on that, requiring 17 days of early voting at minimum, including two Saturdays. By contrast, Abrams recently praised New Jersey for having nine days of early voting. If more access is better, how is nine days praiseworthy but 17 suppressive? Ditto for President Biden. His home state of Delaware doesn’t offer any early voting. And though Georgia voters can request an absentee ballot without explanation, President Biden’s home state of Delaware still requires an excuse."

For a further statement of how the present administration has out-Trumped Trump in distorting facts, see:

https://www.nationalreview.com/2021/03/joe-biden-botches-the-georgia-voting-law/


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Subject: RE: BS: The New Non Voting America
From: beardedbruce
Date: 07 Apr 21 - 09:16 AM

BTW, from https://republicapress.com/us/full-text-georgias-voting-law/


Any person applying for an absentee-by-mail ballot shall make application in 944 writing on the form made available by the Secretary of State. In order to confirm the 945 identity of the voter, such form shall require the elector to provide his or her name, 946 date of birth, address as registered, address where the elector wishes the ballot to be 947 mailed, and the number of his or her Georgia driver’s license or identification card 948 issued pursuant to Article 5 of Chapter 5 of Title 40. If such elector does not have a 949 Georgia driver’s license or identification card issued pursuant to Article 5 of Chapter 5 950 of Title 40, the elector shall affirm this fact in the manner prescribed in the application 951 and the elector shall provide a copy of a form of identification listed in subsection (c) 952 of Code Section 21-2-417.


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Subject: RE: BS: The New Non Voting America
From: beardedbruce
Date: 07 Apr 21 - 09:19 AM

And to prevent my comments being ignored due to the SRS Rule,
https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2021/04/01/us/politics/georgia-voting-law.html


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Subject: RE: BS: The New Non Voting America
From: Jeri
Date: 07 Apr 21 - 09:22 AM

I ignore them due to the "ohmigoditsbruceagain" rule. Waiting for the thread bombing...


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Subject: RE: BS: The New Non Voting America
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 07 Apr 21 - 11:24 AM

I know. He only comes back to fight with people.


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Subject: RE: BS: The New Non Voting America
From: robomatic
Date: 07 Apr 21 - 07:37 PM

Every poster so far is someone who has written things I have appreciated in the past. Several of them have written stuff I found inaccurate or self serving. I enjoy the one and try to tolerate the rest, as I pray they will also extend those privileges to me.

Seems to me that the President 45 had some good leftovers in that he stirred a pot that maybe needed stirring. The incredible number of votes we had in November 2020 let all people know that democracy, while being challenged world-wide, is far from over.

There are many countries however where democracy is on the pavement with bad hombres putting pressure on its neck.


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Subject: RE: BS: The New Non Voting America
From: Donuel
Date: 08 Apr 21 - 05:41 AM

PU, that needed some social media distancing but consider how much better authoritariniam is than Demoxracy; no more fighting - all you have to do is obey and not be informed of anything. Be careful though, what if it was I that you would have to obey?


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Subject: RE: BS: The New Non Voting America
From: beardedbruce
Date: 08 Apr 21 - 08:02 PM

Care to discuss the topic instead of attacking me for not agreeing with you?


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Subject: RE: BS: The New Non Voting America
From: robomatic
Date: 08 Apr 21 - 09:18 PM

I liked the end of the article where you could select: HAPPY ANGRY SAD SURPRISED.


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Subject: RE: BS: The New Non Voting America
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 08 Apr 21 - 11:41 PM

Daily Caller - Patriots Fighting For You - that's all I need to read about your link to know what the content will be.


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Subject: RE: BS: The New Non Voting America
From: Donuel
Date: 09 Apr 21 - 03:22 PM

There they go sounding victimized and yelling opinionated lies louder as if more outrage equals truth in their alternate fact universe.

but that is not the ultimate point.

The ultimate point is that lies in defense of fascist authoritarianism who name the crazy devils to be punished be it any selected peoples or a religion or indian tribes or party...
ULTIMATELY IT ALWAYS ENDS THE SAME

In violence, dehumanization. murder, slavery and extermination.

We have new names for this reality today be it genocide or shoa but it has probably existed extending back into PRE history.

I hold certain people respondsible for the lustful murderous crimes of such an ideology. I could say forgive them for they do not know what they do because they are stupid enough to follow that dark path but I think eyes are opening to exactly who they are.

'They' may not be at the stage of currently cruelly killing women and children but the process remains the same while the means usually progress from starvation, knife , sword, gun, bomb, gas, missile and disease.

GO AHEAD AND DEFEND THE INDEFENSIBLE. WE KNOW EXACTLY WHO YOU ARE.


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Subject: RE: BS: The New Non Voting America
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Apr 21 - 05:30 PM

Turn the record over, Brucie.


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Subject: RE: BS: The New Non Voting America
From: Bill D
Date: 09 Apr 21 - 06:54 PM

Many, many people, both in & out of politics have agreed that the new Georgia laws are designed to limit voting options...especially with regard to black & brown voters.
   It is always possible to find some conservative pundits and organizations which carefully **interpret** the details to cast doubt on what experts and careful amateurs are seeing..in Georgia and a number of other states. Smoke & mirrors and rhetorical hashing don't alter what is going on.


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Subject: RE: BS: The New Non Voting America
From: beardedbruce
Date: 09 Apr 21 - 08:29 PM

BBC
Georgia voting: Fact-checking claims about the new election law
Jake Horton - BBC Reality Check

A controversial new election law in the US state of Georgia has led to heated disagreement between Democrats and Republicans over its impact on voting.

Georgia voted for Joe Biden in the 2020 election, the first time the state had chosen a Democratic presidential candidate in more than 25 years.

Democrats say the new law aims to restrict voting in future elections, but Republicans who control the state's government say it expands access and increases election security.

We've looked at some of the main claims.

From my first clicky- are you claiming that the BBC is "conservative pundits and organizations"?

I know that many here are perfectly willing to believe the "experts and careful amateurs " without looking at the facts, but can any one of YOU tell me HOW the requirements of the new Georgia law ( in itself more open than the laws in New York and a number of other states) " limit voting options...especially with regard to black & brown voters."?

PLEASE TELL ME what those requirements are, according to you, that the BBC doesn't seem to agree with.




Isn't the accepting of those "Many, many people, both in & out of politics" without looking at the facts as stated by the law, and discussed by the NYT and BBC basically what the Left has complained about Trump?


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Subject: RE: BS: The New Non Voting America
From: beardedbruce
Date: 09 Apr 21 - 08:31 PM

Just trying to understand how looking at the actual words of the law, and seeing they are expanding voting as opposed to limiting it, is such a crime, Stevie.


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Subject: RE: BS: The New Non Voting America
From: Bill D
Date: 09 Apr 21 - 09:09 PM

Well..gee. Here's a comparison of Georgia's law(s) compared to Colorado's: (New York Times)
"After Major League Baseball announced recently that it would move the All-Star Game from Atlanta to Denver in protest of new voting restrictions in Georgia, numerous prominent Republicans accused it of hypocrisy.

“Georgia has 17 days of in-person early voting, including two optional Sundays; Colorado has 15,” Gov. Brian Kemp of Georgia told Fox News. “So what I’m being told, they also have a photo ID requirement. So it doesn’t make a whole lot of sense to me.”

Senator Tim Scott of South Carolina made a similar argument in a widely circulated post on Twitter.

But while the 15-day and 17-day numbers are accurate, the overall comparison is not. Here are four key differences between Colorado’s and Georgia’s systems.

In Colorado, every registered voter receives a mail ballot by default.

In Georgia, people who want to vote by mail must apply, and the new law more than halves the time they have to do that: Previously, they could apply as much as 180 days before an election, but now no more than 78 days before. Georgia also forbids officials to send voters an absentee ballot application unless they request it.

In Colorado, eligible voters can register anytime, including on Election Day.

In Georgia, the deadline to register to vote is a month before Election Day, and under the new law, the same deadline applies to any runoff — meaning if a Georgian is not registered by the deadline for the first election, they cannot subsequently register to vote in the runoff.

In Colorado, only newly registered voters have to provide identification with their mail-in ballot; for subsequent elections, all that’s required is their signature. And contrary to Mr. Kemp’s statement, there is no photo requirement: Voters can use a birth certificate, a naturalization document, a Medicare or Medicaid card, a utility bill, a bank statement, a paycheck or another government document that shows their name and address.

In Georgia, only photo identification is acceptable for regular mail-in ballots, and it has to be one of six specific types. The requirement will apply to everyone who votes by mail, not just to newly registered voters as in Colorado.

In Colorado, there were 368 ballot drop boxes last year across the state’s 64 counties, not just in government buildings but also at schools, parks, libraries, businesses and more. Boxes were open 24 hours a day.

In Georgia, the new law requires at least one drop box in each of the 159 counties. (Mr. Kemp and other officials note that before the pandemic, Georgia didn’t have drop boxes at all.) The boxes will be only at registrars’ and absentee ballot clerks’ offices or inside early-voting sites, and open during limited hours.

In 2020, Colorado had the second-highest turnout rate in the country: 76.4 percent of eligible voters, behind only Minnesota, according to data compiled by the United States Elections Project. Georgia was 26th, with a turnout rate of 67.7 percent of eligible voters."


Governor Kemp sure leaves out a lot in his analysis...

It's late... there's other sources which give similar information, but it is easy to see the Georgia has LIMITED voting registration and hours in various ways that inconvenience black voters in particular.


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Subject: RE: BS: The New Non Voting America
From: beardedbruce
Date: 10 Apr 21 - 08:00 AM

"In Georgia, only photo identification is acceptable for regular mail-in ballots, and it has to be one of six specific types."

And the state will provide this ID FREE if one asks for it.

Please explain how this "inconvenience black voters in particular."


More questionslater on other points


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Subject: RE: BS: The New Non Voting America
From: beardedbruce
Date: 10 Apr 21 - 08:06 AM

"n Colorado, every registered voter receives a mail ballot by default.

In Georgia, people who want to vote by mail must apply"

So you are in favor of mailing out ballots to EVERYONE even if they do not ask? And then NOT require any id for that ballot to be counted?

And you don't understand why 70 Million of us think that the election MIGHT have had invalid votes counted?


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Subject: RE: BS: The New Non Voting America
From: beardedbruce
Date: 10 Apr 21 - 08:13 AM

"In Georgia, people who want to vote by mail must apply,..... Georgia also forbids officials to send voters an absentee ballot application unless they request it."

And then they get ballot and can vote.



And other states? Does Delaware, with it's ZERO days of advanced voting, allow any absentee ballots WITHOUT request with REASON that has to be acceptable? Seems like a larger burden than getting an ID, which you claim is unreasonable.


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Subject: RE: BS: The New Non Voting America
From: beardedbruce
Date: 10 Apr 21 - 08:17 AM

"n Colorado, eligible voters can register anytime, including on Election Day.

In Georgia, the deadline to register to vote is a month before Election Day,"

And other states? IN MOST states, there is a time requirement for registration before elections. - Let me know what states have shorter ones, if you would be so king. They have BEEN in place for decades. No complaints about that, though.


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Subject: RE: BS: The New Non Voting America
From: Donuel
Date: 10 Apr 21 - 08:52 AM

I gather you believe you understand and we don't. Its a common problem.
The way you try to recover truth is like reaching for a quarter stuck beside a car seat and console. The further you reach, the more you loosen the quarter which eventually falls further. Try recovering it from the bottom/foundation to begin with.
A foundation of history and other education is path most intellegensia take. The reason why Hitler put the intellegensia to death first will become crystal clear.


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Subject: RE: BS: The New Non Voting America
From: Donuel
Date: 10 Apr 21 - 09:05 AM

Clarification: I am not the intellegensia but by their success rate, I am a big fan.


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Subject: RE: BS: The New Non Voting America
From: Donuel
Date: 10 Apr 21 - 09:35 AM

The neo Republicns have found that voter suppresion alone does not win the day anymore. They have moved to voter elimination tactics.
Just like putting a handcuffed person on their stomach will suppress breathing but a knee on the neck can eliminate breathing.

There is the possibility draconian new laws will end up as a wash.
This country prefers democracy over fascism at the end of the day.
It did last tim. Next timeprobably by more than 7 million votes.

Have ever counted out loud from 1 to 7 million? Its alot.


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Subject: RE: BS: The New Non Voting America
From: Bill D
Date: 10 Apr 21 - 10:59 AM

"So you are in favor of mailing out ballots to EVERYONE even if they do not ask? "
Several states automatically register people as they become eligible... and many DO mail ballots

You keep playing Socrates on the issue and asking me leading questions, as if *I* must eventually agree that good 'ol Georgia and Florida and Texas etc...etc.. had nothing but "election security" in mind.
What do YOU propose states do.... and with what goal in mind?


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Subject: RE: BS: The New Non Voting America
From: beardedbruce
Date: 10 Apr 21 - 05:58 PM

I propose that

1. Ballots NOT be mailed out without being requested by the voter
2. A reasonable number of days of Pre Election voting be available- such as 15 ( the number of days Georgia had BEFORE this bill) Georgia now has 17 required.
3. PROOF of the person's identity equal to that of in-person voting be required. VALID ID of some sort. PROVIDED BY THE GOVERNMENT as the Georgia law provides for


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Subject: RE: BS: The New Non Voting America
From: beardedbruce
Date: 10 Apr 21 - 06:31 PM

Goal?


How about to eliminate the APPEARENCE of improper votes?

How about codifying in the law actually LOOKING at complaints of election fraud by a NEUTRAL group? Telling someone who questions the vote counts that there is no need to investigate since it did not happen is like the KKK saying there were no lynchings.

Would YOU believe that a recount of ballots THAT YOU DO NOT THINK were VALID is proof of Validity, and not just of the number that had been counted?

How about allow people that wish to vote the same chance to do so regardless of party? Even in the Democratically controled states?

How about not telling false stories about laws such as Georgia's?
Why do states that have more severe restrictions on voting, but are under Democratic control get a pass and are NOT racist?

The MOST gerrymandered district in the country is in Maryland, put in place by Democrats to eliminate a district that had voted for Republicans.   

I have never received a reason that the intimidation of white voters in 2008 in Philadelphia by ARMED "poll-watchers" of the Black Panthers was ok, but the observation of vote counting in 2020 by Trump supporters was somehow improper.


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Subject: RE: BS: The New Non Voting America
From: Bill D
Date: 10 Apr 21 - 10:17 PM

You & I have both voted in MD and ID has been routine. Some states are putting additional layers in the ID process that complicate it by requiring documents that many poor & rural voters find complex & difficult to obtain.

The "..the APPEARENCE of improper votes?" To whom, exactly?

"Would YOU believe that a recount of ballots THAT YOU DO NOT THINK were VALID is proof of Validity, and not just of the number that had been counted?" That doesn't track. How am I to decide that some ballots are not valid? Georgia's ballots were recounted 3 times, I believe..once by hand. (after Trump almost demanded that they 'find' him enough ballots to cast doubt on the totals!)

"... complaints of election fraud by a NEUTRAL group..." It seems as if any group that complained about fraud in Georgia was never satisfied with the neutrality of the counters.

The real bottom line is that actual provable fraud in voting is very rare and was seldom a serious issue until Biden won by a large margin..

I want a TOTAL end to Gerrymandering.. and an end to the electoral college nonsense. The vote for president and V.P. is national, and should be by a majority of the total country, not a game to win 4-5 key states. That's what "One man, one vote" should mean.

"Why do states that have more severe restrictions on voting, but are under Democratic control get a pass and are NOT racist?"

You name them... your assertion. Racist attitudes are everywhere, but show up in laws much more in some states. (another reason for national voting for POTUS)


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Subject: RE: BS: The New Non Voting America
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Apr 21 - 08:41 AM

Everyone in England and Wales who is on the electoral register receives a polling card several weeks before any election. You are allocated a local polling station and you can't vote anywhere else. You can vote by post without giving a reason but you must apply several weeks in advance. You can get a proxy to vote for you, again which must be arranged in advance, but there's provision for last-minute hitches such as illness. You don't have to take the polling card with you to vote and you don't need any ID. When you arrive at be polling station, the officer in charge takes your details and ticks you off his list. You're then given a ballot paper which bears a unique number, which cannot be used to identify you but which may be used at the count to ensure that there's no fraudulent voting going on.

Polling stations are open from 7 AM TO 10 PM. If there is a queue close to closing time, you will still be allowed to vote even after 10 PM. Polling stations are abundant and no-one has to travel very far. The officer in charge at the polling station must show the empty ballot box at the start of polling to others present in the polling station. The ballot box must be sealed in front of witnesses immediately the voting has ended.

Accusations of fraud are very infrequent, demonstrated fraud even less so.


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Subject: RE: BS: The New Non Voting America
From: beardedbruce
Date: 11 Apr 21 - 09:03 AM

"Some states are putting additional layers in the ID process that complicate it by requiring documents that many poor & rural voters find complex & difficult to obtain."

I agree, and that is wrong. Now why how is Georgia any different from other states, that also require identification? It seems that the requirement for ID on ABSENTEE ballots is the problem- WHY?



"The "..the APPEARENCE of improper votes?" To whom, exactly?:

How about more than 25% of the voters?
I stated "How about codifying in the law actually LOOKING at complaints of election fraud by a NEUTRAL group? Telling someone who questions the vote counts that there is no need to investigate since it did not happen is like the KKK saying there were no lynchings."

If the BALLOTS are in question, is a recount of those ballots meaningful? TELLING us that there were no invalid ballots when there is no serious look at the complaints is just like accepting the KKK at it's word.



"The real bottom line is that actual provable fraud in voting is very rare "

Possibly, but without an actual investigation how would you know? The complaint on the part of the conservatives is that very few issues were addressed, just a RECOUNT of ballots that were being questioned as valid. NO attempt to verify that the ballots counted were valid at all, just a recount.


The laws in Georgia are an attempt to insure that BALLOTS COUNTED ARE VALID-

Why does this make them Racist? Who is it that objects to only having valid votes count?


"I want a TOTAL end to Gerrymandering.. "


"and an end to the electoral college nonsense. The vote for president and V.P. is national, and should be by a majority of the total country, not a game to win 4-5 key states. That's what "One man, one vote" should mean."

Except without the Electorial College, the election would be settled by the votes in a few states. CA, TX, NY, PA and such

The present system biases away from one person/one vote in small states, then gives states like CA that have a large undocumented population a bonus. The Census is counting people to determine the representation- which gives the number of EC votes- AND THE CENSUS DOES NOT ASK ABOUT CITIZENSHIP!

So CA gets an extra 4 million plus population worth of representatives.

Fix that and I will agree with "One Citizen, ONE Vote" and direct vote- when ALL STATES have the SAME standards imposed.

Then candidates only need to go to 4-6 states and the election will be over.

I would prefer to see a modification of the states giving electorial votes by percentage of votes within the states- WHICH IS LEGAL NOW for states to do, without changes to the constitution. If a candidate get 30 % of the popular vote have them get 30% of the EC vote for that state. AS LONG AS ALL STATES do this, it is fair. But if some give ALL the votes to a winner who get 51% this cannot work.


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Subject: RE: BS: The New Non Voting America
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 11 Apr 21 - 09:05 AM

They do seem to make voting quite unnecessarily complicated in the US. Wonder why?


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Subject: RE: BS: The New Non Voting America
From: beardedbruce
Date: 11 Apr 21 - 09:38 AM

"You name them... your assertion. Racist attitudes are everywhere, but show up in laws much more in some states."

SB 202 leaves no-excuse absentee voting in place and expands early voting in Georgia by mandating an additional day of weekend voting in all Georgia counties. It also continues Sunday voting in counties that want it.

YOUR COMMENT???


In his statement, Biden also alleged that the new law “ends voting hours early.” Even the left-leaning Washington Post agreed that wasn’t true, giving the claim four Pinocchios and saying “there’s no evidence that is the case.”

The reality is that Georgia remains a national leader in access to the polls.

Georgia has the most successful automatic voter-registration program in the country. Automatically registering eligible voters through the Georgia Department of Driver Services, which confirms citizenship prior to registration, makes it easier for eligible voters to vote, and ensures that election officials have accurate, up-to-date information. Notably, President Biden’s home state of Delaware does not offer this to voters.

Stacey Abrams is pushing for just 15 days of early voting, below the 16 days Georgia has offered its voters for years. SB 202 has built on that, requiring 17 days of early voting at minimum, including two Saturdays. By contrast, Abrams recently praised New Jersey for having nine days of early voting. If more access is better, how is nine days praiseworthy but 17 suppressive? Ditto for President Biden. His home state of Delaware doesn’t offer any early voting. And though Georgia voters can request an absentee ballot without explanation, President Biden’s home state of Delaware still requires an excuse.


YOUR COMMENT??? How about a boycott of Delaware and New Jersey???



The legislation moves Georgia from the subjective signature-match identity-verification process for absentee-ballot voting to objective ID numbers from photo IDs, free voter IDs, or other documents. I introduced this concept last year with the absentee-ballot-request portal, and it won bipartisan praise. With such close elections, moving to an objective standard takes pressure off of our local election officials.

It is also convenient for voters. Over 97 percent of Georgia’s voters have a driver’s-license number associated with their voter-registration record.

To ensure voters actually get their absentee ballots in time to cast them, SB 202 puts reasonable deadlines in place for receiving absentee-ballot applications and sending out absentee ballots, and moves Georgia closer in line with other state timelines. The massive increase in absentee ballots last year stressed Georgia’s election system. Over 500,000 people requested an absentee ballot but showed up in person anyway. This slowed down in-person voting and increased the possibility of double voting.

YOUR COMPLAINT???

SB 202 takes steps to cut down voting lines. If voters have to wait more than an hour on Election Day, the relevant county has to add voting equipment or split the precinct if there are too many voters assigned to that precinct. The bill directs voters to cast ballots in their assigned precincts, eliminating the extra steps for processing out-of-precinct voters that lead to long lines.

YOUR COMPLAINT???

The bill also takes steps to minimize the voter confusion that undermines integrity in elections. SB 202 requires third-party groups to clearly identify who they are on absentee-ballot applications they send to voters. My office received countless calls from individuals who thought they were sent several absentee ballots because third-party organizations kept sending request forms. SB 202 codifies the early processing of absentee ballots to allow for quicker posting of results and more transparency. It also requires counties to publish the total number of absentee ballots they received during the election soon after the polls close to avoid the perception that ballots came in after the deadline.

YOUR COMPLAINT???

SB 202 clarifies that giving away food or drink within 150 feet of a polling place is considered campaigning and is not allowed. The polling place should be a place where voters are free from pressure and influence and can cast their vote in peace and confidence.

Perhaps unsurprisingly, there is little controversy about the same rules in New York, on which the Georgia’s legislature modeled their own provision.


WHERE IS YOUR CALL TO BOYCOTT New York State???

Now, first of all, notice what is not prohibited here. Voters can still bring bottled water or other food or beverages with them to stand on line to vote, as people often do when waiting at Disney World or to buy concert tickets or in other public places where people stand on long lines. Voters can still also, if they like, order food; the bill doesn’t stop the Domino’s Pizza man or the local hot dog cart or taco truck from doing business. And if you feel impelled to donate food and drink to voters, you can still do that, too; you just have to give it to the poll workers so they can put it out for general use. The president’s claim that “You can’t provide water for people about to vote” is just false. What you cannot do under the new Georgia law is deploy people in National Rifle Association t-shirts and MAGA hats to hand out free Koch-brothers-financed, Federalist Society–branded pizza to voters.

Never mind that if outraged groups were truly interested in just making sure waiting voters got water, they would be more than satisfied with giving the water to the poll manager to distribute, as allowed by SB 202. These groups can also just stand 25 feet away from voting lines and 150 feet from the precinct and let voters comes to them.

In other words, this entire controversy is not about people dropping dead of hunger and thirst on long voting lines at all. It’s about electioneering around the polling place by people looking to advertise that they represent a cause, and who try to influence voters by giving them free stuff. Across the country today, we already have lots of laws against this sort of thing. There is nothing wrong with Georgia trying to limit it.

While state laws vary, many other states have electioneering bans that prevent people from giving gifts to voters, approaching voters on line or in the process of voting, or wearing or displaying political messages around the polling place. Minnesota law has a broad ban on approaching voters:

No one except an election official or an individual who is waiting to register or to vote or an individual who is conducting exit polling shall stand within 100 feet of the building in which a polling place is located. Minn. Stat. § 204C.06

In 2018, the Supreme Court in Minn. Voters Alliance v. Mansky found that Minnesota had a valid basis for its ban on voters wearing any sort of political badge, button, or insignia inside a polling place. Chief Justice Roberts, noting that the majority of states had some restrictions on campaign-related clothing and accessories at the polls, explained:

We see no basis for rejecting Minnesota’s determination that some forms of advocacy should be excluded from the polling place, to set it aside as an island of calm in which voters can peacefully contemplate their choices. . . . Casting a vote is a weighty civic act, akin to a jury’s return of a verdict, or a representative’s vote on a piece of legislation. It is a time for choosing, not campaigning. The State may reasonably decide that the interior of the polling place should reflect that distinction.

Seven Justices joined that opinion, which nonetheless found that the law entangled Minnesota too much into deciding what messages were political; the two dissenters would have upheld the law.

Montana’s law aims directly at campaigns handing out food, drink, or tobacco:

On election day, a candidate, a family member of a candidate, or a worker or volunteer for the candidate’s campaign may not distribute alcohol, tobacco, food, drink, or anything of value to a voter within a polling place or a building in which an election is being held or within 100 feet of an entrance to the building in which the polling place is located. § 13-35-211, MCA

New York makes “Furnishing money or entertainment to induce attendance at polls” a class A misdemeanor, and explicitly includes handing out “meat, drink, tobacco, refreshment or provision” unless it is worth less than a dollar and the person providing it is not identified:

Any person who…in respect of any election during the hours of voting…gives or provides, or causes to be given or provided, or shall pay, wholly or in part, for any meat, drink, tobacco, refreshment or provision to or for any person, other than [poll workers and other voting officials], except any such meat, drink, tobacco, refreshment or provision having a retail value of less than one dollar, which is given or provided to any person in a polling place without any identification of the person or entity supplying such provisions, is guilty of a Class A misdemeanor. N.Y. Elec. Law § 17-140

Biden’s own home state of Delaware bans giving gifts or rewards to voters in presidential primary elections:

Whoever…pays, transfers or delivers, or offers…any money, or other valuable thing as a compensation, inducement or reward for the giving or withholding or in any manner influencing the giving or withholding a vote…shall be fined not less than $100 nor more than $5,000 or imprisoned not less than 1 month nor more than 3 years, or both. 15 Del. C. § 3167

Laws of these sorts have been the product of experience. In 1998, the Supreme Court of Kentucky, in Ellis v. Meeks, threw out the results of a primary election where the winner, Meeks (who prevailed by eight votes) had handed out free food at the polling place, and made it available to voters. The court rejected the argument that this was all harmless because there was no direct evidence that he had changed any votes or had demanded any explicit quid pro quo from voters:

At ten of the fifteen voting stations in the 11th Ward, Meeks made free food available to anyone present, glad-handed voters as they entered, and spoke with voters as they signed in to vote. Based upon this evidence, we… hold that Meeks’ non-verbal conduct solicited votes and amounted to electioneering within 500 feet of a building where votes were being cast…We can conceive of no other explanation for his actions…. We find that making free food available to precinct workers and voters was an item of value offered by Meeks in exchange for their votes or moral support in violation of [Kentucky law].

Georgia’s law follows the same line of reasoning: The obvious motive of showing up to hand things directly to voters, rather than just providing them to poll workers to distribute, is to influence their votes.


YOUR COMPLAINT???


The bill also includes more practical measures that will help smooth election administration. Counties can now hire poll workers from neighboring counties if needed and if the neighboring county has enough of their own staff. It also requires political parties to train their poll watchers on relevant laws and regulations.

YOUR COMPLAINT???

"If these things sound like commonsense solutions, that’s because they are. SB 202 will increase confidence in our election system, ease the burden on local election officials, and expand access to the polls"

Obviously the stated goals are most certainly something that Liberals have no interest in, and will fight to the death to prevent.(SARCASM)


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Subject: RE: BS: The New Non Voting America
From: Jeri
Date: 11 Apr 21 - 09:40 AM

Republicans know that if people can vote, they'll never win another election, so they try to stop them from voting.

Be aware that this is the sort of interminable fighting that gets people's cookies removed. This isn't the right website for it.


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Subject: RE: BS: The New Non Voting America
From: beardedbruce
Date: 11 Apr 21 - 09:47 AM

"Some states are putting additional layers in the ID process that complicate it by requiring documents that many poor & rural voters find complex & difficult to obtain."

Please tell me what states these are, and why you think "poor & rural voters find complex & difficult to obtain" them?
Driver's license, free ID provided on request, Social Security number?????
WHAT ID do you need in MD, since you state you "voted in MD and ID has been routine"? Will you declare that racist if it happens to be the same as GA?

Next thing we know, you will want to cast ballots for the poor and ignorant so that what YOU think is their vote will be properly accounted for- Just wait until someone you disagree with gets THAT kind of lock on elections!

BeardedBruce is on time-out.


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Subject: RE: BS: The New Non Voting America
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 11 Apr 21 - 10:29 AM

Your suggestion about usurping the votes of "poor and ignorant" - your words - voters is foolish. And you and everyone reading this thread knows why poor people have difficulties getting the newly-required types of IDs required at polling places.

BeardedBruce you landed on this thread as a place to start fighting with people with your particularly obtuse and tedious approach to discourse. There's a reason that other ex-members are particularly offended that you are allowed any access at all to the Mudcat site. You've pushed your luck as far as it will go. Stop stalking members and stop the "butter wouldn't melt in your mouth" BS questions. We all know what you're up to.

Yes, Mossback/Greg/whoever you are, we are aware of your pique over this development. Your wish may come true.


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Subject: RE: BS: The New Non Voting America
From: Jeri
Date: 11 Apr 21 - 10:45 AM

Reduce the number of polling places so people who don't own cars can't get to them easily, reduce early voting so people have to take time off work to vote, and give up some pay, or get rid of some drop boxes so people, again, have to travel just to put their ballot in a box (it would also help discourage people if you didn't tell them where the polling places or drop boxes are), make them get an ID that requires they travel (again, with no car, and loss of pay) to the DMV.

To NOT see that this is voter suppression takes an incredible amount of stupidity, and I think Republicans have grossly underestimated people's ability to figure out their tactics.

And furthermore, when you get to the point where YOU'RE SHOUTING THAT MUCH, it's time to pull the plug.


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Subject: RE: BS: The New Non Voting America
From: Donuel
Date: 11 Apr 21 - 11:26 AM

By starting this unfair and eliminationist path to voting again we are going to justify more state formation. Like 3 Texas or 3 CA, PR and DC - TO GAIN MORE SENATORS. There could e stacking the supreme court and god knows what else, best to nip it in the bud now. Will republicans listen to reason? -rhetorical question alert-


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Subject: RE: BS: The New Non Voting America
From: Bill D
Date: 11 Apr 21 - 11:59 AM

Not much to say after SRS and Jeri were so eloquent in their reasoning.Probably just as well. I get sucked down that rabbit hole too easily.. forgetting that BB can go forever.
I appreciate the break.. *wry smile*


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Subject: RE: BS: The New Non Voting America
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 11 Apr 21 - 12:07 PM

"Be aware that this is the sort of interminable fighting that gets people's cookies removed.. This isn't the right website for it."

The problem is that too often what happens isn't that. The repeat offenders are allowed keep their cookies, and carry on, but potentially interesting discussions get derailed, and terminated.

It's remarkable the way that so often people lack the elementary self discipline not to get stirred up to launch into temper tantrums. In a face to face argument there's some excuse for losing one's rag, and striking out verbally if not physically. But in an online setting like this where we can hold pf posting a hasty response, there really isn't.

..........

Voting by post is very much a second best. The rutual of voting personally is an important one for a society. Widespread postal voting in a society reflects the fact that there are serious problems that get in the way of being able to vote in person. The pandemic was an example. But there are clearly many more, particularly it seems in the States. That's where the problem lies.

For example consider the question of freedom to give water to people waiting for hours to cast their vote. Why on earth should anyone have to wait for hours to cast their vote? It just wouldn't arise if there were sufficient polling places in the right places at the right times to meet the needs of the community. If people feel inhibited or frightened to vote in person there is something clearly wrong with the voting arrangements and that needs to be dealt with.

Postal voting is a stop gap solution that needs to be defended, but it should be recognised that the demand for it reflects serious failings in a society.

And of course the big underlying fault evidenced in the USA at this time is the existence of a powerful minority which sees voter suppression as its only real pathway back to hegemony.


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Subject: RE: BS: The New Non Voting America
From: Bill D
Date: 11 Apr 21 - 01:44 PM

That's a good summary, McGrath. The problem is, population increases in urban areas has created a situation where there are more voters than can easily vote in person on one day. I have waited for 2 hours (2004..for Obama) in a district which is not super crowded. More voting stations require more trained and competent volunteers and careful placement for best access.
   Early voting and mailed ballots are almost required in some places..so far.
The other issue is, of course, the polarization of the electorate and intimidation of those brave enough to show up in person.... and the ongoing question of HOW to vote... paper..machine....which machine and how to control paper ballots after voting.

   I personally cannot see why they allow machines to be linked online.Hacking has gotten pretty clever. Yes, it speeds up reporting, but why not just an internal memory which can be retrieved and taken to a central point for quick reading?

Too many questions.........


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Subject: RE: BS: The New Non Voting America
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 11 Apr 21 - 02:08 PM

The turnout (returned ballots) was so much higher when every registered voter received a ballot in the mail in states that don't usually vote this way (COVID-19 delivered some interesting discoveries in 2020, voting interest is one of them.) The states that do vote this way show higher turnouts consistently.

The obstacles that GOP legislatures are putting in front of voter access to the ballot are clearly because when more people vote the GOP parties tend to lose, and instead of making their party more welcoming and reasonable, they are instead trying to block access to voting at all. In a nutshell.

My question is - these legislatures aren't writing all of these new proposed laws themselves, they're getting them from conservative organizations that want to see the reduced voter outcome. What organizations are doing that? We know about the Federalist Society "vetting" possible judge candidates, that (until recently) the National Rifle Association (NRA) provided sample gun-proliferation legislation; what group writes the sample legislation that is being picked up now?

I did my own search on that and found the American Legislative Exchange Council (ALEC). So did The Atlantic, referring to them as A shadowy organization uses corporate contributions to sell prepackaged conservative bills -- such as Florida's Stand Your Ground statute -- to legislatures across the country.

More about ALEC from Wikipedia.

USA Today and The Arizona Republic also found answers - corporations are writing sample legislation favorable to their own business.

ABOUT THIS REPORT
This story was produced as part of a collaboration between USA TODAY, The Arizona Republic and the Center for Public Integrity. More than 30 reporters across the country were involved in the two-year investigation, which identified copycat bills in every state. The team used a unique data-analysis engine built on hundreds of cloud computers to compare millions of words of legislation provided by LegiScan.


COPY, PASTE, LEGISLATE
Published — April 4, 2019

You elected them to write new laws. They’re letting corporations do it instead.
Rob O’Dell

Each year, state lawmakers across the U.S. introduce thousands of bills dreamed up and written by corporations, industry groups and think tanks.

Disguised as the work of lawmakers, these so-called “model” bills get copied in one state Capitol after another, quietly advancing the agenda of the people who write them.

A two-year investigation by USA TODAY, The Arizona Republic?and the Center for Public Integrity reveals for the first time the extent to which special interests have infiltrated state legislatures using model legislation.

USA TODAY?and the Republic found at least 10,000 bills almost entirely copied from model legislation were introduced nationwide in the past eight years, and more than?2,100?of those bills were signed into law.

The investigation examined nearly 1 million bills in all 50 states and Congress using a computer algorithm developed to detect similarities in language. That search – powered by the equivalent of 150 computers?that ran nonstop for months – compared known model legislation with?bills introduced by?lawmakers.

The phenomenon of copycat legislation is far larger. In a separate analysis, the Center for Public Integrity identified tens of thousands of bills with identical phrases, then traced the origins of that language in dozens of those bills across the country.

Model bills passed into law have made?it harder for injured consumers to sue corporations. They’ve called for taxes on sugar-laden drinks. They’ve limited access to abortion and restricted the rights of protesters.


This is what is going on, and this is what BB was hoping no one would bother to post. Get pissed off enough and you can wipe the floor with the bugger.


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Subject: RE: BS: The New Non Voting America
From: Bill D
Date: 11 Apr 21 - 02:27 PM

Yep.. everyone has known that 'interested parties' have been feeding Republicans designer legislation for years. Direct evidence is hard to prove, and it's not even clear it would be illegal. I suspect that laws restricting it would need to be passed in each state... and impossible to pass in some.


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Subject: RE: BS: The New Non Voting America
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 11 Apr 21 - 02:37 PM

Lots of people generate sample legislation; federal agencies have people who do it when requested by congressional or senatorial legislators. The amount of what is probably dark money that goes into the non-governmental entities writing this legislation should be tackled in another Citizens United-style debate and law.


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Subject: RE: BS: The New Non Voting America
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 11 Apr 21 - 03:40 PM

An aside: Geez, Moss, read the invisible writing on the wall why don't you. 11 Apr 21 - 10:29 AM


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Subject: RE: BS: The New Non Voting America
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Apr 21 - 03:56 PM

On a slightly broader and philosophical note, I think there's something incredibly and healthily democratic about going to vote in person if you possibly can. Postal voting is admittedly popular in the UK, and there are good reasons for having it. But I've never used it. I vote in every election, local or national, and in every referendum, even though I'm opposed to referendums in principle. Polling stations are thick on the ground here. I've voted many times, here in Cornwall, in east London, in Essex and in Manchester. I've never had to queue to vote and never had to travel far to vote. If I've been at work, the polling is open at seven in the morning and stays open until ten at night. You can't by law be disenfranchised by a queue as long as you arrive before ten. As you arrive to vote, the bureaucracy is next to nil. No polling card needed, no ID needed, and it takes thirty seconds for the chap at the desk to log you in and give you your ballot paper. It takes me twice as long to go into the shop next door to buy a pint of milk. There is absolutely no need for armies of "qualified" people to man polling stations. Where I vote, I've never seen more than two officials in attendance, and they are not professionals. Until a couple of years ago, the man at the helm was Ray Shaddick, a legendary Radio Cornwall presenter, there as a proud volunteer. Sadly, Ray passed away a couple of years ago. For decades, going to vote was going to say hello to Ray. True enough, there's always someone who will kick up about alleged fraud, etc., but to the average person going to vote is one of the most stress-free things in life. True democracy demands that that is how it should be.

Just thought I'd mention it!


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Subject: RE: BS: The New Non Voting America
From: Donuel
Date: 11 Apr 21 - 07:00 PM

The Masters at Augusta Georgia was won by Matsuyama of Japan HOWEVER by Republican new rules the second place blonde blue eyed Zalatoris wins the green jacket.
White Republicans - the other master race.


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Subject: RE: BS: The New Non Voting America
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 11 Apr 21 - 07:14 PM

Like Steve, I've never had to wait in a long queue to vote, and our voting numbers tend to be significantly higher than in the USA. I don't know how many polling stations are seen as enough. Here we have them in schools most of the time, but all kinds of other places get used - church halls, sports centres, even pubs. A city of 250,000 population (all ages), Derby has about 80 polling stations.

At present you jus5 walk in, and give them your name and address, and the volunteer behind the table ticks off your name on the register in front of them, and hands you a voting slip and you go and mark it in a voting booth and stick it in the box. The boxes get picked up and taken to the Town Hall, and counted by tellers, and the result gets announced some time later that night. Pretty simple.

Mind they're talking about bringing in a requirement for some kind of identity check, such as requiring you bring in the card you've been sent at home giving details of the voting station and date of the election. Possibly something more. Can't see the point myself. Keeping things simmple works best.

If someone turned up and personated you and you went to vote it'd show up automatically. A personator would be risking heavy penalties chancing that you might not have voted already. Doesn't happen.

.Voting the dead has been a fairly traditional custom in Northern Ireland, but with both sides doing it balanced out fair enough. And it was often said, why should you lose your chance to vote for your side just because you'd died?


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Subject: RE: BS: The New Non Voting America
From: Bill D
Date: 11 Apr 21 - 09:17 PM

For about 40 years, I have voted in person at a high school 5 min. away. There have sometimes been lines in an especially important election, but like Steve & McGrath, once registered, I had only to give my name, quote my birth date and been checked off. Last Nov, with COVID, I stuck my ballot and my wife's is a drop box at that same school.
   All this is likely due to the fact that Maryland, and my precinct in particular, are steadily Democratic and never in doubt. Republicans just don't bother about harassing voters here..


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Subject: RE: BS: The New Non Voting America
From: Donuel
Date: 12 Apr 21 - 06:57 AM

I have not been so lucky.
For about 20 years, I have voted in person at a high school 5 min. away. There have sometimes been lines in an especially important election, but I only had to give my name, quote my birth date and address HOWEVER I WAS FORCED TO VOTE PROVISIONALLY THREE TIMES, BALLOT DISQUALIFIED ONCE AND MACHINE MALFUNCTION ONCE.

For two years local republicans would mail a postcard to 'verify' voter registration, if not returned promptly it would be used to challenge voter registration. One year we had a trick ballot like FL.
A Diebold machine died once when I voted.


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