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BS: The mechanics of genius

Donuel 28 Oct 20 - 11:37 AM
gillymor 28 Oct 20 - 11:59 AM
Donuel 28 Oct 20 - 12:41 PM
Donuel 28 Oct 20 - 01:10 PM
Donuel 28 Oct 20 - 01:38 PM
Donuel 28 Oct 20 - 05:47 PM
Mrrzy 28 Oct 20 - 06:28 PM
Doug Chadwick 28 Oct 20 - 07:11 PM
Bill D 28 Oct 20 - 09:16 PM
Mr Red 29 Oct 20 - 08:29 AM
Donuel 29 Oct 20 - 12:30 PM
Bill D 29 Oct 20 - 04:58 PM
Donuel 29 Oct 20 - 05:49 PM
Bonzo3legs 29 Oct 20 - 05:55 PM
Bonzo3legs 29 Oct 20 - 05:59 PM
Bill D 29 Oct 20 - 06:25 PM
Bill D 29 Oct 20 - 06:28 PM
Jeri 29 Oct 20 - 06:33 PM
Bill D 29 Oct 20 - 06:48 PM
Bonzo3legs 29 Oct 20 - 07:30 PM
Jeri 29 Oct 20 - 09:45 PM
Ebbie 30 Oct 20 - 03:54 AM
Mr Red 30 Oct 20 - 06:09 AM
robomatic 30 Oct 20 - 08:37 AM
Jeri 30 Oct 20 - 10:39 AM
Mrrzy 30 Oct 20 - 11:09 AM
Bill D 30 Oct 20 - 11:37 AM
Ebbie 30 Oct 20 - 01:07 PM
Jeri 30 Oct 20 - 03:48 PM
robomatic 30 Oct 20 - 04:15 PM
Donuel 30 Oct 20 - 07:57 PM
Donuel 31 Oct 20 - 07:54 PM
Donuel 01 Nov 20 - 10:20 AM
Donuel 02 Nov 20 - 07:24 AM
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Subject: BS: The mechanics of genius
From: Donuel
Date: 28 Oct 20 - 11:37 AM

This a a lesson about the mechanics of genius and how anyone can learn to use simple rules to use genius in their lives. Were not all genius. I am not. But genius methods can be shown to us What true genius's have in common. Their are other kinds of genius like savants that are cloaked in mystery and are unavailable to everyone. What one can observe in a simple bubble can lead to genius discoveries for example. Nature uses the least energy to perform feats that could be ours for the taking if we only look. Etc.
Everyone has learned short cuts and how to make the complex seem simple. Just the very notion that anyone can be and do genius, will give some people the 'permission' to try.   

Rule #1 What a genius does is observe what nature does to solve a problem or enable a fantastic ability. Leonardo did it, so did Alfred. So can you.


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Subject: RE: BS: The mechanics of genius
From: gillymor
Date: 28 Oct 20 - 11:59 AM

Alfred E. Neuman?


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Subject: RE: BS: The mechanics of genius
From: Donuel
Date: 28 Oct 20 - 12:41 PM

personally i tink worry helps like rumination.

DaVinci observed birds - deeply. We can still learn from the birds today. By looking at a photo of a penguin surfacing with 100 feet of bubbles behind him like a rocket it was discovered the bubbles reduced the drag of the water. Now ships use this fact. Torpedoes now go 80 mph with bubble technology. I can go on with bubbles for an hour but the point is to look deeply. The more knowledge and connections we make, the more neurons and connections we make in an upward growing spiral.

Rule number 2: Allow even unrelated ideas or irrelevant notions to surface, they may be of help later. While studying bubbles the framework of a cube allowed bubbles to combine to create the dimensions of a hypercube. It is unrelated but worth noting.


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Subject: RE: BS: The mechanics of genius
From: Donuel
Date: 28 Oct 20 - 01:10 PM

Just looking at nature is not all the looking you can do but can be enhanced with mental pictures just as Eienstien did. He mentally pictured the face of a clock moving away from the train staion clock at the speed of light and saw how the light speed clock virtually stopped. He made similar thought experiments with gravity and inertia.

Rule #3 There is such a thing as divine inspiration, personal revelation or epiphony. The more scholorship preceding the revelation the better. The downfall of this phenomenon is that the more you don't know the more likely you won't know how you are wrong. Still a tiny fraction of genius has happened this way.


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Subject: RE: BS: The mechanics of genius
From: Donuel
Date: 28 Oct 20 - 01:38 PM

A woman measured the surface tension of water in her kitchen with a glass of water, a button, a string and a scale. She also showed how soap made the surface tension of water decrease.
Simplicity is a key. Richard Feynman demonstrated the failure a complex space shuttle launch with a simple glass of ice water and an O ring. A math genius can show the most complex relationships in the most simple terms.
People like Obama who can concisely sum things up are on the right track.


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Subject: RE: BS: The mechanics of genius
From: Donuel
Date: 28 Oct 20 - 05:47 PM

In a word it comes down to reading.

What makes you so smart and in what field?


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Subject: RE: BS: The mechanics of genius
From: Mrrzy
Date: 28 Oct 20 - 06:28 PM

I was born smart and then well-educated...


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Subject: RE: BS: The mechanics of genius
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 28 Oct 20 - 07:11 PM

What makes you so smart and in what field?

Stinging nettles make me smart. I don't need to find a field, there are plenty of them growing in my garden.

DC


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Subject: RE: BS: The mechanics of genius
From: Bill D
Date: 28 Oct 20 - 09:16 PM

I have a number of examples, but it's late. I'll try tomorrow.


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Subject: RE: BS: The mechanics of genius
From: Mr Red
Date: 29 Oct 20 - 08:29 AM

Smart is when you DO analyse "that which you are glad to hear".

Even Einstein was politically naive. We can't do it all. Or even know when we can't - sometimes!


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Subject: RE: BS: The mechanics of genius
From: Donuel
Date: 29 Oct 20 - 12:30 PM

Al just had a unique view of social science and "Poli Psych"
His best friend invented mustard gas and he became conflicted with war in unusual ways.

We are now exposed to the stable genius. (An ego without a soul)
True genius to me has a flame of madness.
We all have a spark of madness we should treasure.
Once that is gone you are no longer the fireworks fruit of the universe, you're just a vegetable.


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Subject: RE: BS: The mechanics of genius
From: Bill D
Date: 29 Oct 20 - 04:58 PM

"In a word it comes down to reading.
What makes you so smart and in what field?"

Reading is great, but genius, being a subjective term, is a lot of other things. It involves observation and an ability to connect things about what is observed in ways that allow new things to be realized and created that were previously not there.... both in ideas and objects.
   Imagine the 1st of our remote ancestors noticing what sharp sticks or rocks could do...then figuring out that they could sharpen sticks and rocks without having to find them! The process of making specific noises to refer to objects, and then actions was pretty automatic, but categorizing and organizing the noises and later using drawings and marks to refer to them was often an early form of genius.
   A lot of truly creative ideas comes from what we now call "inductive logic", in which defining principles are extracted from observations instead of just basic information.
There is a 'card game' called Eleusis in which one player defines the way cards are allowed to be played and other players try various plays and are told that the play is valid or invalid as they try to figure out the rule. I have played it... and it can be quite frustrating in several ways. If the rule is too easy OR too hard to guess, players can become bored or angry, so there is a form of genius involved in constructing interesting but possible games (like crossword puzzles)... and another form of 'genius?' in inductively guessing the answer. (Be careful who you play this with!)

Now.. my 'field', such as it applies to me, was originally philosophy/logic, although I never became a professional at it. I did, however, 'inductively' extract from reading various approaches to "how to think" some rules for classifying and evaluating stuff I read and hear. What that leads to is the often awkward situation of finding someone agreeing with your own position, but for really illogical and foolish reasons! (Humans are blessed/cursed with brains able to evaluate 'stuff', but also to **rationalize** and totally get answers they like, no matter what the evidence shows.)

   My other 'field' was for the last 25 years or so, woodworking...especially working on a lathe. There are some fairly clear, standard 'rules' about how to do... and not do.. certain standard processes. But when wanting to do something really different, "thinking outside the box" comes into play, and the visions and habits of Leonardo and Einstein and Eli Whitney and Gutenberg become an integral part of it all.
   Part of the process is not limiting the use of various tools to some limited ways.... and of seeing some items that were not meant to be tools AS tools. (347 examples left out to keep this..um... short ;>)) One brief story: when working at my university's wood shop as student asst., I was often sent out to repair a broken window. For whatever reason, they never seemed to order putty knives... so when a window needed puttying, a couple of us would take the 'blade' out of a try-square and make it work, even though it was far too stiff for best results!
    I have no doubt that most of you have 'invented' some trick in your 'field' or at home to solve a problem... (and maybe discovered that others had done the same thing.)
Anyway, when these common 'inductive' things that we all do occasionally are done way above what most of us do, we classify it as examples of genius.

   That's a bare beginning to my analysis.. and because my own habits and/or abilities don't seem to include organizing everything I think about, you may not find me publishing any books.....


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Subject: RE: BS: The mechanics of genius
From: Donuel
Date: 29 Oct 20 - 05:49 PM

Your writting reads like a book.
It is simple genius when a nautical mechanic can gerry rig a fix at sea without a true replacement part. We used to refer to Yankee ingenuity but now Silicon valley is publicly leading apparent innovation while most genius leaps are actually being made in bio tech imo.

Thinking outside the hypercube can result in a lucky guess or a vision. Practice in this kind of non traditional thinking is helpful but without real genius it will lead to many gross mistakes or a one trick pony genius. Those who are seldom wrong are the genius' we need.

Pure research as opposed to goal oriented projects will attract genius' of different talents. To recognize who that one or two genius people are out of billions is not always obvious. I'm thinking of last century's Indian mathmatician who was brought to Cambridge.

DMcG thinks its best to look among the young grad student for the genius. Old folks are not in the running I guess.

BILL I bet you can carve a mobius strip out of wood, but you coudn't carve a Klien bottle, and if you could half of it would be hidden.


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Subject: RE: BS: The mechanics of genius
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 29 Oct 20 - 05:55 PM

You can't keep taking away from a positive integer without it turning negative!!!


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Subject: RE: BS: The mechanics of genius
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 29 Oct 20 - 05:59 PM

Question: 20 random cards are placed in a row all faced down, moves consist of turning a face down card face up and turning over the card immediately to the right. Show that no matter what the choice of cards to turn, this sequence of moves must terminate.


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Subject: RE: BS: The mechanics of genius
From: Bill D
Date: 29 Oct 20 - 06:25 PM

Mobius strips out of wood don't require carving... *grin*... just the right kind of wood cut into a thin strip and twisted and the ends reglued.
Nope.. a Klein bottle is a different matter. If I want one, I can

As to genius in math, it varies from 'idiot savant' to the Indian you mention to the guy (
John Von Neumann) who was visited by some computer folks a number of years ago. They were hoping he could design a program to help their computers solve some arcane problem. He asked them to show them the problem and the parameters. When they finished, he gazed at the ceiling for awhile, then said, "You don't need a program... here's your answer." He was right.
"Von Neumann believed that much of his mathematical thought occurred intuitively; he would often go to sleep with a problem unsolved and know the answer upon waking up."

   I think that synesthesia might be a form of genius, though not in the common sense.


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Subject: RE: BS: The mechanics of genius
From: Bill D
Date: 29 Oct 20 - 06:28 PM

"...this sequence of moves must terminate. "
Umm.. the sequence is defined as having a right hand limit...


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Subject: RE: BS: The mechanics of genius
From: Jeri
Date: 29 Oct 20 - 06:33 PM

I'm sure there's something you missed explaining.
You have 20 cards. If you turn over the most cards, 10 sets of 2 at a time, you'll simply run out of cards to turn over.

Before we discuss whatever it is we're discussing, we should agree on what "genius" is.
I think the accepted definition has to do with IQ.
We all know there are different ideas about what genius is. The test is math-centric (IMO). Even if there's a wide definition, where does the guy who can figure out how to jury-rig an engine when he doesn't have the right parts fit? What about the girl who can't count to 10, but can watch a dance performance, and copy it exactly? Is it problem solving, or remembering things? Is it being able to figure out that Andy doesn't like Bruce without talking to either one?

So Don, when you wrote "...genius methods can be shown to us What true genius's have in common. ", would you give us a clue what you're talking about? If it's what a "genius method" is, we need an example. I think they are infinite, and I think one has to BE a genius tor recognize a genius.

But whatthehell - it's fun to talk about.


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Subject: RE: BS: The mechanics of genius
From: Bill D
Date: 29 Oct 20 - 06:48 PM

If I was good at math, I'd have been working at the EPA in an Francisco in 1972. They tried to hire me, but I had to take the FSEE and got 'only' a 95.5 percentile because I was in the 8os in math while at 98+ in language. Veteran's preference put many ahead of me. I was told that if I could get a pure score of 97+ they could ask for a special exception for me.


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Subject: RE: BS: The mechanics of genius
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 29 Oct 20 - 07:30 PM

Answer:
Look at the cards as numbers
Face Down = 1 and Face Up = 0

Initially there will be a sequence of 1ís as all the cards will be face down. After a while it would look something like this:
1 0 0 1 1 0 1 0
As we can see this is a Binary number, and a move that consists of turning a face down card face up and the card immediately to the right could be that a one followed by a one will turn into a zero followed by a zero; which would look like this:
1 0 0 0 0 0 1 0
Or it could be a one followed by a zero turning into a zero followed by a one
1 0 0 0 0 0 0 1
In either case we can see that the number in Binary is strictly decreasing, which means the sequence must terminate as you canít keep taking away from a positive integer without it turning negative.


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Subject: RE: BS: The mechanics of genius
From: Jeri
Date: 29 Oct 20 - 09:45 PM

Bonzo, I think I'd have to see you do that. If you had to turn every card to the right of a face up card face up, how can there be two ace up cards separated by a face down cards? In other words, there would never be a sole face up card.

For the record, I avoid numbers whenever possible. I do language, and I do logic, but algebra is for other people.

What is a "zero turning into a zero"?


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Subject: RE: BS: The mechanics of genius
From: Ebbie
Date: 30 Oct 20 - 03:54 AM

Genius can be pragmatic too. Once I was with my brother driving through the Cascades when the radiator blew. Using his felt cowboy hat I refilled the radiator from a nearby stream while my brother whittled out a plug from a branch. Within an hour we were on our way, no stress, no complaining. My brother was no genius but I was very impressed with him that day.


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Subject: RE: BS: The mechanics of genius
From: Mr Red
Date: 30 Oct 20 - 06:09 AM

a Klein bottle is a different matter. If I want one, I can

can what?

In my potting phase I fashioned a Klein bottle. The only problemo was smoothing the join on the inside. But it was a Klein bottle. No practical use though.
Didn't bother with Mobius Loops, even though I could have. Preferred to make Puzzle Mugs.


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Subject: RE: BS: The mechanics of genius
From: robomatic
Date: 30 Oct 20 - 08:37 AM

Ebbie. Your story flips the thread title to "The Genius of Mechanics."!


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Subject: RE: BS: The mechanics of genius
From: Jeri
Date: 30 Oct 20 - 10:39 AM

because leather and wood are mechanical?

I think it's more like the geniu of knowing how things work.

Serious: what do you think an IQ test actually measures? What are the questions about?


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Subject: RE: BS: The mechanics of genius
From: Mrrzy
Date: 30 Oct 20 - 11:09 AM

Genius can't be defined by IQ as nobody knows what IQ is.

And I assume here the poster means IQ as a shorthand for intelligence. IQ is mental age over chronological age but mental age remains defined by intelligence tests, and nobody knows what those assess beyond the ability to take IQ tests.

That card game reminds me of two fun party games for smart groups, Great Aunt Sally and Four Is Cosmic. Don't want to spoil those by explaining how they work but inductive reasoning is fun!

Then there are the never-ending-question parlor games where an odd situation is given, and the crowd has unlimited yes-no questions to try to figure out how the situation could have arisen. Those were popular in the 90s but I can only remember 2 of them, the naked dead guy with half a toothpick and the guy who goes back to jump off the bridge. There were others, though.


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Subject: RE: BS: The mechanics of genius
From: Bill D
Date: 30 Oct 20 - 11:37 AM

If I want a Klein bottle I can buy one...

And Ebbie... hidden in my tedious post there was the sense of 'pragmatic' as being often part of a very creative aspect of 'genius-like' solutions.
You reminded me of two friends from Wichita who spent (mis-spent?) part of their youth doing drag racing in a flat-head Ford. In an attempt to get better performance, they ordered a fancy carburetor, but they hadn't realized it required a special adapter plate to fit that old Ford. Hmmmmm.... so they made one.... out of a piece of oak!
   Next race, they submitted the car for inspection, and had the officials frantically thumbing thru the rules. Nothing seemed to rule out an oak adapter, so they we allowed to run! Later, they felt that oak was not quite 'safe', so they made another from phenolic.. an artificial stuff. I don't remember whether they ever managed to get a real adapter.

(When I had a sink blockage in the bathroom, I bought a rubber pressure gadget that attached to a garden hose. You stick it in the sink outlet and it shoots water at high pressure.) But the bath tub was part of the drainage system, and the water backed up into the tub causing reduced pressure at the sink..... so I turned a Teak plug for the tub drain and wedged it in very tight! ZOOM! pressure now did the job.)
Pretty low on the genius scale, but I'll take 'clever'.


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Subject: RE: BS: The mechanics of genius
From: Ebbie
Date: 30 Oct 20 - 01:07 PM

The Genius of Mechanics- good one, robomatic. And Bill Day, for illustrating it!


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Subject: RE: BS: The mechanics of genius
From: Jeri
Date: 30 Oct 20 - 03:48 PM

I figure I was right with the "genius of how things work", although it pretty much means the same as "genius of mechanics".

IQ is, as far as I know, how many people define genius. I was pointing out that we're discussing something we don't know how to define.

For the record, a high IQ has nothing to do with how a person interacts with the world. It's like having a huge library of books. It doesn't mean a person's read any of them, or arranged them in a pleasing sculptural arrangement. It's about the potential of someone to score highly on a test.

I had an art teacher who, so I HEARD, had scored under a hundred on his IQ test. 100 is average. Maybe he did, but he was/is a brilliant artist, and he was a brilliant teacher. I took two different IQ tests, one oral and one written. I scored 8 points higher one one than the other. I also have ADD, so what happens when a person just reaches their ability to focus on a PITA test? What happens when their eyes get tired, or they're sick so they don't care? Tests are of some value, but aren't the be all/end all. There is no single reliable way to define genius.


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Subject: RE: BS: The mechanics of genius
From: robomatic
Date: 30 Oct 20 - 04:15 PM

This might be on another thread, but when my family moved to a town with a good school system, I was given an IQ test. At the end of it, the very patient man who'd given me the one-on-one test said I would not be informed as to the numerical 'score' I was assigned, but to remember that it wasn't so much what your IQ was as it was what you did with it.

I suspect that there is a lot more data and theory on intelligence than any of us non-professionals know. I think of 'IQ' not on a spectrum leading to genius but on a more definable spectrum involving pattern recognition and problem solving. I think in reality there are multiple spectrums and something along the lines of "I can't define it, but I know it when I see or hear it" regarding genius.


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Subject: RE: BS: The ULTIMATE mechanics of genius
From: Donuel
Date: 30 Oct 20 - 07:57 PM

What would take our super computers 10,000 years to solve can take a quantum computer 10 minutes. We are on the cusp of ultimate genius mechanics. What AI and quantum computers can do can be verified to you with a 100 links and many of you will be distracted by consciousness arguments but are we ready to take this step?


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Subject: RE: BS: The mechanics of genius
From: Donuel
Date: 31 Oct 20 - 07:54 PM

https://newsroom.ibm.com/2020-01-16-The-Qua-n-tum-Computing-Era-Is-Here-Why-It-Matters-And-How-It-May-Change-Our-World


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Subject: RE: BS: The mechanics of genius
From: Donuel
Date: 01 Nov 20 - 10:20 AM

UK quantum video even Americans can understand
narrarated by a Brit


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Subject: RE: BS: The mechanics of genius
From: Donuel
Date: 02 Nov 20 - 07:24 AM

Nope ee's Australian?
My IQ is a proud 90. Jeri is a timid 160. Lbs.


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