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BS: Brexit & other UK political topics

Dave the Gnome 29 Jun 21 - 05:25 AM
Dave the Gnome 29 Jun 21 - 05:22 AM
Steve Shaw 29 Jun 21 - 05:13 AM
DMcG 29 Jun 21 - 04:19 AM
DMcG 29 Jun 21 - 03:38 AM
The Sandman 29 Jun 21 - 03:11 AM
DMcG 29 Jun 21 - 03:01 AM
DMcG 29 Jun 21 - 03:00 AM
robomatic 28 Jun 21 - 03:22 PM
robomatic 28 Jun 21 - 03:21 PM
punkfolkrocker 28 Jun 21 - 12:03 PM
The Sandman 28 Jun 21 - 05:17 AM
Steve Shaw 27 Jun 21 - 06:49 PM
punkfolkrocker 27 Jun 21 - 06:01 PM
Bonzo3legs 27 Jun 21 - 05:57 PM
DMcG 27 Jun 21 - 05:55 PM
Backwoodsman 27 Jun 21 - 05:23 PM
Raggytash 27 Jun 21 - 03:54 PM
Bonzo3legs 27 Jun 21 - 03:05 PM
robomatic 27 Jun 21 - 02:42 PM
Jos 27 Jun 21 - 02:14 PM
DMcG 27 Jun 21 - 02:07 PM
Dave the Gnome 27 Jun 21 - 01:43 PM
DMcG 23 Jun 21 - 12:09 PM
Raggytash 22 Jun 21 - 05:17 PM
The Sandman 22 Jun 21 - 04:29 PM
punkfolkrocker 22 Jun 21 - 02:33 PM
Donuel 22 Jun 21 - 10:56 AM
Raggytash 22 Jun 21 - 10:08 AM
Donuel 22 Jun 21 - 09:05 AM
SPB-Cooperator 22 Jun 21 - 06:43 AM
SPB-Cooperator 22 Jun 21 - 06:24 AM
DMcG 22 Jun 21 - 05:32 AM
DMcG 22 Jun 21 - 05:31 AM
The Sandman 22 Jun 21 - 04:40 AM
Nigel Parsons 21 Jun 21 - 02:25 PM
DMcG 21 Jun 21 - 10:58 AM
Rain Dog 20 Jun 21 - 12:23 PM
DMcG 20 Jun 21 - 12:11 PM
DMcG 20 Jun 21 - 12:11 PM
punkfolkrocker 20 Jun 21 - 11:51 AM
punkfolkrocker 20 Jun 21 - 11:23 AM
The Sandman 20 Jun 21 - 08:11 AM
DMcG 20 Jun 21 - 05:33 AM
Dave the Gnome 20 Jun 21 - 05:31 AM
SPB-Cooperator 20 Jun 21 - 05:17 AM
Dave the Gnome 20 Jun 21 - 05:04 AM
The Sandman 19 Jun 21 - 02:48 PM
Jos 19 Jun 21 - 12:46 PM
SPB-Cooperator 19 Jun 21 - 11:39 AM
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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 29 Jun 21 - 05:25 AM

Opticians is the more common spelling of course...


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 29 Jun 21 - 05:22 AM

Ear syringing is no longer available on the NHS either. Our local optitions do it for £100 or Specsavers do it for £55.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Jun 21 - 05:13 AM

About two years ago I had a large sebaceous cyst on my shoulder that was constantly prone to bursting (and coming back). I was flabbergasted to be told by my GP that he couldn't deal with it under the NHS. He gave me the number of a private clinic. I rang them. They offered me a half-hour appointment (which included "counselling") with no guarantee of success. £450.

I sorted it myself.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 29 Jun 21 - 04:19 AM

I suppose I should reveal my hand after that.

My wife has osteoarthritis. She has had both hips and both knees replaced. One operation was on the NHS, three we paid for privately, primarily because of the length of the waiting lists.

When Johnson became Prime Minister, I took out private health insurance for myself for the first time in my life, because my trust in the government is that low. Even in Thatcher's time, I did not consider private health insurance.

Naturally, the cost of private health care for my wife is totally prohibitive so she is not covered.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 29 Jun 21 - 03:38 AM

I may have said this before here, as I have certainly said it in a few places, but I will repeat myself if I have. No matter.

Talk of selling off the NHS is unwise. I do not think the Conservatives would do anything so crude. But they don't have to. All they have to do is ensure that for those who can afford it private medicine is the preferred route. There are all sorts of ways this can happen: allow the waiting lists to grow and grow. Restrict the range of operations on the NHS (eg varicose veins are no longer available on the NHS. I think they dropped around 35 such things not long ago.) Restrict the criteria for access ("BMI over 35? Sorry, no treatment until you get it down. Obesity is a health risk and we need to atop it")

All of those are happening at the moment (and were all pre-covid, by the way.)


Next, paint those who take out private healthcare as patriots, for reducing the waiting lists for the NHS. Such selfless people.

Next, think about tax relief for individuals with private healthcare. After all, if they are not using the NHS, it is fair they don't pay as much for it, isn't it?

They do not stress that reduces the NHS funds, so makes things like waiting lists worse, but it does. Which of course makes the private more appealing, and more go private, leading to whittling down the NHS further.

And yet, they could still boast that the NHS exists and is free at the point of use. So it has not been "sold."

If you look at the reports from private healthcare companies for the year before covid struck, they reported a boom in the self-pay sector. I.e. those without health insurance but paying for a private operation directly.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 29 Jun 21 - 03:11 AM

javid has outside interests which include private medicine.
this is a little like giving a job to a thief to guard the crown jewels

Sajid Javid is the new Secretary of State for Health and Social Care.

Alongside being an MP, last year Javid was hired as a paid senior advisor to the US bank JP Morgan.

JP Morgan is a major player in private healthcare.

The NHS isn't safe in the Conservatives' hands.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 29 Jun 21 - 03:01 AM

Before I am picked up on it, when I said "every case occupies a hospital bed", I meant of course "every hospitalisation occupies a bed"


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 29 Jun 21 - 03:00 AM

Chart for UK cases on 29 June 2021

Javid's speeches yesterday put him firmly on the side of dates rather than data. He committed very strongly to removing as many restrictions as possible on 19th July and living with the consequences.

Such bravado could very easily cause him a huge headache. Even though the numbers are lower than before, it would be foolish to think the number of hospitalisations is independent of the number of cases, and every case occupies a hospital bed for a comparatively long time (many operations, such as my wife's knee replacement earlier this week) occupy beds for two or three days. Covid-19 hospitalisation is longer. The chart I took a snapshot of and linked to above shows the UK is not doing well controlling the delta variant, and relaxing in a few weeks if we have not got this under control looks very unwise from a data viewpoint.

He is also gambling that a new variant will not emerge that has worse statistics than delta.

SO he could very easily find himself in the nearish future - say before the end of the year - having to decide whether to eat humble and pie and actually reverse the irreversible, or to be held personally accountable for any deaths etc arising from this hypothetical variant.

In essence, he has already gambled his future that such a variant will not appear. JH, and the rest of us, may be lucky.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: robomatic
Date: 28 Jun 21 - 03:22 PM

That was supposed to be:

WWC(hurchill)D?

but I butterfingered it (Yes, I made 'butterfinger' a verb. I went there).


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: robomatic
Date: 28 Jun 21 - 03:21 PM

WWC(hurchill)?


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 28 Jun 21 - 12:03 PM

Dick - the same reason fleas, lice, and ticks
don't voluntarily leave their warm-blooded host victims...


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 28 Jun 21 - 05:17 AM

why dont the whole cabinet resign


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Jun 21 - 06:49 PM

And now Dom Cummings is claiming that 'twas Carrie who got the "bog-standard" Sadge appointed. Heheh...

I'll swear that I read somewhere that the camera was embedded in the room's smoke alarm...


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 27 Jun 21 - 06:01 PM

Why does BBC persist in calling it "Kissing",
when it was a full on teenage disco snog and arse grope.. at their age...???

Tory party now deep in debate on best ways to monetise the full sex tape...£££


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 27 Jun 21 - 05:57 PM

Of course he was!!


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 27 Jun 21 - 05:55 PM

One of the things I thought interesting is that while Hancock said those who make the rules must abide by them, there is not a thing in Johnson's reply to say he agrees. In fact, though he accepts the resignation there is nothing in his response to suggest he thought it right to resign.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 27 Jun 21 - 05:23 PM

He may not have been sacked (for the aforementioned reasons), but I’d bet a pound to a pinch of snuff that he was ‘resigned’.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Raggytash
Date: 27 Jun 21 - 03:54 PM

Johnson could not have sacked Hancock for having an extramarital affair ............. how could he sack someone for doing exactly the same as himself on numerous occasions.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 27 Jun 21 - 03:05 PM

Just as I suspected, hancock' s brains are in his pant's!!!!!


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: robomatic
Date: 27 Jun 21 - 02:42 PM

Do we know more about the who and how of camera placement in Hancock's work environment. As in, has this been happening right along and could it be a factor in various decisions in officialdom?


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Jos
Date: 27 Jun 21 - 02:14 PM

I can't help suspecting that rather than Hancock having now 'left' his wife, she may have kicked him out.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 27 Jun 21 - 02:07 PM

I think Matt Hancock should have been sacked, although I can cope with his resignation. Nothing to do with the affair, I should add, but for the breach of rules (And I would like these other offences taken into account, m'lud)

I am not at all convinced Javid will be a good health minister, but the choices available were somewhat limited.

The first serious thing to judge him on is who he appoints as head of NHS England. Serial-disaster Dido would be a really bad sign.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 27 Jun 21 - 01:43 PM

What do we think of Hat Mancock then?

(For the pedantic and those who cannot figure these things out, I am referring to the health secretary 's resignation)


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 23 Jun 21 - 12:09 PM

The return of roaming charges?

It will be interesting to see if O2 backs down, or the other providers follow them in restoring charges.

I remember being assured in posts to earlier versions of this thread that this was another unfounded 'Project Fear'-style claim.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Raggytash
Date: 22 Jun 21 - 05:17 PM

Yes Dick he is. But that has no place ,even if it were relevant, on the one thread we're allowed about UK politics.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 22 Jun 21 - 04:29 PM

he is talking about pr, it is being introduced in usa?


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 22 Jun 21 - 02:33 PM

Donny - quick, a UFO has landed in the other thread.
The visitors were looking for you,
with an important message only you can comprehend.
They were starting to look a bit impatient like they've been stood up.
Quick before you miss them...!!!

Now back to British political matters...


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Donuel
Date: 22 Jun 21 - 10:56 AM

Try it you might like it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Raggytash
Date: 22 Jun 21 - 10:08 AM

Just why is that posted on a Brexit & other UK politics thread?


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Donuel
Date: 22 Jun 21 - 09:05 AM

NYC is trying out Rank Based voting in the primary for the Mayor election. https://www1.nyc.gov/site/civicengagement/voting/ranked-choice-voting.page


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 22 Jun 21 - 06:43 AM

The other problem with the poll is that it does not separate dogma from informed opinion. For the survey to have any real value the answer needs to be qualified and the way to pick up the people in the middle would be a further question: -   Please give your reasons why you believe Brexit is NOT going well or badly. An example might be that UK has control of its fishing waters (well) versus UK has lost most of its market for selling fishing catches (badly).


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 22 Jun 21 - 06:24 AM

I tend to look much more at the drivers for leave - both from the tory and labour point of view. In the case of Labour, those who were driving it saw it as a step towards their revolutionary socialist ideals, while the conservative side was much more about realising capitalism from social responsibility. Again this is about the drivers, not the voters.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 22 Jun 21 - 05:32 AM

string => striking


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 22 Jun 21 - 05:31 AM

The commentary around the table of results (which is a bit buried in the middle) is propaganda, I would say. So I tend to focus on the table and largely ignore the surrounding text.

One of the reasons I said YouGov is unreliable is that a major bias in any survey is determining who you ask. Most YouGov surveys are based on filling in online questionnaires, so you suffer from all the 'self-selection' problems.

As we are coming up to the five year anniversary of the vote, ask "how's it going?" is quite a reasonable thing to ask.

I agree with Nigel that it is interesting that there is a string difference in the opinion of Conservative and Labour Leave voters. There are probably dozens of factors in play. One is that with the Conservatives in power, it is much harder for Conservative voters to say "this is going badly" whereas there is quite an incentive for Labour voters to say 'this is not the Brexit I voted for.'

A second one is that it is very likely that Labour Leave voters and Conservative Leave voters agreed that the UK should leave the EU, but they genuinely had different ideas about what should happened next. I suspect, but do not know of course, that many of the Labour Leaves felt it was the best way of protecting UK jobs (i.e. essentially protectionist), whereas many Conservatives were much more 'free market' inclined, and so opposed to protectionism.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 22 Jun 21 - 04:40 AM

its called propoganda or sometimes news


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 21 Jun 21 - 02:25 PM

Yes, they clearly use the headlines which will reflect their own views. "Just 25% of the British public think Brexit is going well".
Although that is clearly less than the alternate headline "Just 38% think Brexit is going badly".

By ignoring all those who say either "not going well nor badly" or "Don't know" any other option is never going to manage to make a big headway.

It's surprising the correlation between Conservative/Leave figures and Labour/Remain figures on the basis that this wasn't ever supposed to be a party political decision.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 21 Jun 21 - 10:58 AM

How is Brexit going?

Polls are always suspect, and YouGov more than most, but even so it is interesting.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Rain Dog
Date: 20 Jun 21 - 12:23 PM

Jonathan Freedland in yesterdays Guardian

"Plot it on a graph and the change stares right back at you. Fifty years ago, parties of the left fared best among those with the least education and the lowest income, while the right flourished among those with the most of both. These days, the right still does well among the affluent, but on education the two camps have swapped places: these days, and far too crudely put, if you’re a graduate you vote left; if you’re not, you don’t."

And
Thursday’s byelection result will prompt a lot of excited talk of what educated, progressive voters might do if they join together. But it will never be enough. The harder truth is that those who want change will have to speak to voters about the things they, the voters, care about, and in a way that makes sense to them. It will require discipline and coherence, even from those who think they’re doing noble work “widening the debate” or “raising awareness”, when in fact they’re just making progressives look weird. There is no short cut – via Chesham and Amersham or anywhere else."


Jonathan Freedland


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 20 Jun 21 - 12:11 PM

Opps! Thread, not threat!


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 20 Jun 21 - 12:11 PM

The main problem with a two party system is they can put all sorts of stuff in their manifestos and claim that is what people demanded. We had a nice example just recently in this threat when Gina Millar was given as an example of how individuals could hold governments into account, while apparently unaware the manifesto for the winning party in 2019 included a commitment to 'rebalance' rights to make it possible to stop any such 'politics by other means'. (Admittedly, they did add a whole pile of fluff and chaff disguising how to achieve that, but they did make that a clear objective.)

Sometimes, I think I am the only one that reads manifestos ...

Anyway, having a two party system would amplify that: how do you say that you do not want the objectionable stuff in the manifesto? Especially if the other side had different but equally objectionable stuff?

My personal preference is for a large number of parties, and I would have liked to see a pro-Brexit Tory and a pro-EU Tory on the ballots in each constituency (ditto for Labour) so that we elected a pro-Brexit or anti-Brexit House without needing a referendum at all.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 20 Jun 21 - 11:51 AM

Btw..

I've suggested it before,
and I'm becoming increasingly convinced that a two party system might be more effective..

However you name it, or label each opposing party,
voters would need to be honest with themselves and pick a side.

Individuals stubbornly posturing as centrists,
would need to do some serious heart searching thinking;
and decide which side they actually lean towards by the narrowest margin...

It wouldn't be a perfect solution, obviously..

(Single issue obsessed militant activists would still be a distracting divisive pain in the arse..)

But it might be better than our present charade of democracy...???


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 20 Jun 21 - 11:23 AM

Hmmmmmmmmmm..

John Bercow.. next Labour leader and prime minister...???

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.............


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 20 Jun 21 - 08:11 AM

i agree that there are advsntages and disadvantages to the different PR systems , but it is indisputable that with two social democratic opposition parties the liberals and the present labour party ,the opposition is split . tactical voting in chesham defeated the conservatives.
i have never voted liberal in my life but they are different from the conservatives in that they are pro european, and they are the party that consistently suffers with first past the post election system


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 20 Jun 21 - 05:33 AM

The whole debate on voting systems is complex, and it is worth getting your head round Arrow's Impossibility Theorem. However, it is also important to understand this theorem does not say FPTP is better.

Over-simplifying, the theorem says all voting systems have flaws. But, recognising where and how and how severely they go wrong, you can choose a system ;with open eyes' to its limitations.

I head a great lecture by John Curtice a month or two back explaining how FPTP has failed to achieve what its supporters claim with any reliability for decades now. Hid did not recommend any specific voting system, but he did say many of the claimed benefits of FPTP are spurious.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 Jun 21 - 05:31 AM

Letter to Starmer from a member of the working class.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 20 Jun 21 - 05:17 AM

I prefer preferential vote systems as it maintains constituencies voting for their representative,,, and also addresses progressive votes being split so that constituents can reject an incumbent without having to vote tactically and a candidate winning a seat in spite of two thirds of voters being against them.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 Jun 21 - 05:04 AM

well the "country" is the electorate

It isn't just the electorate though. It is the companies that employ and pay people. It is the transport infrastructure. It is those who maintain national parks and other treasures. All those and many more have to have their best interests protected too.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 19 Jun 21 - 02:48 PM

it is partly a fault of first past the post, the two social dmocratic parties, liberal[pale pale pink] and labour[ pale pink] have their vote split, divide and rule


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Jos
Date: 19 Jun 21 - 12:46 PM

What a depressing solution to a depressing problem.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 19 Jun 21 - 11:39 AM

Then you need to vote for the candidate who is most likely to defeat the candidate youe want least.


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