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BS: Brexit & other UK political topics

McGrath of Harlow 24 Jan 22 - 04:13 PM
McGrath of Harlow 24 Jan 22 - 04:09 PM
Steve Shaw 24 Jan 22 - 12:56 PM
Dave the Gnome 24 Jan 22 - 12:52 PM
DMcG 24 Jan 22 - 11:10 AM
Raggytash 24 Jan 22 - 10:43 AM
Nigel Parsons 24 Jan 22 - 10:24 AM
Nigel Parsons 24 Jan 22 - 10:21 AM
Dave the Gnome 24 Jan 22 - 09:30 AM
Steve Shaw 24 Jan 22 - 08:59 AM
Nigel Parsons 24 Jan 22 - 08:44 AM
McGrath of Harlow 24 Jan 22 - 07:57 AM
Backwoodsman 24 Jan 22 - 07:36 AM
Raggytash 24 Jan 22 - 07:13 AM
An Buachaill Caol Dubh 23 Jan 22 - 10:08 PM
Steve Shaw 23 Jan 22 - 07:50 PM
Nigel Parsons 23 Jan 22 - 07:44 PM
Dave the Gnome 23 Jan 22 - 02:47 PM
An Buachaill Caol Dubh 23 Jan 22 - 02:44 PM
Dave the Gnome 23 Jan 22 - 01:14 PM
SPB-Cooperator 23 Jan 22 - 05:11 AM
DMcG 23 Jan 22 - 01:55 AM
DMcG 23 Jan 22 - 01:53 AM
Steve Shaw 22 Jan 22 - 04:57 PM
Nigel Parsons 22 Jan 22 - 03:06 PM
Steve Shaw 22 Jan 22 - 01:15 PM
Dave the Gnome 22 Jan 22 - 12:33 PM
Nigel Parsons 22 Jan 22 - 10:33 AM
Nigel Parsons 22 Jan 22 - 10:23 AM
Bonzo3legs 22 Jan 22 - 09:19 AM
Bonzo3legs 22 Jan 22 - 09:16 AM
Steve Shaw 22 Jan 22 - 07:20 AM
Steve Shaw 22 Jan 22 - 07:16 AM
Dave the Gnome 22 Jan 22 - 06:55 AM
Steve Shaw 22 Jan 22 - 05:02 AM
Steve Shaw 21 Jan 22 - 08:43 PM
Nigel Parsons 21 Jan 22 - 08:28 PM
Steve Shaw 21 Jan 22 - 07:58 PM
DMcG 21 Jan 22 - 02:17 PM
Steve Shaw 21 Jan 22 - 01:15 PM
Dave the Gnome 21 Jan 22 - 12:22 PM
DMcG 21 Jan 22 - 12:07 PM
Nigel Parsons 21 Jan 22 - 11:54 AM
DMcG 21 Jan 22 - 10:49 AM
Steve Shaw 21 Jan 22 - 09:37 AM
Nigel Parsons 21 Jan 22 - 07:49 AM
Dave the Gnome 21 Jan 22 - 07:24 AM
Dave the Gnome 21 Jan 22 - 07:22 AM
Raggytash 21 Jan 22 - 07:15 AM
Nigel Parsons 21 Jan 22 - 07:09 AM
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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 Jan 22 - 04:13 PM

I see no one seems to have picked up on the significant typo in that email invitation.

Surely that first paragraph should have read "After what has been an incredibly boozy period we thought it would be nice to make the most of the lovely weather and have some socially distanced drinks in the No10 garden this evening.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 Jan 22 - 04:09 PM

"Maybe 'bring your own booze' was insisted on to avoid passing bottles back and forth with the increased Covid risk."

Implying that the people who work in Number 10 are the kind of oiks who drink out of the bottle. Probably accurate enough.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Jan 22 - 12:56 PM

"Hi all,

"After what has been an incredibly busy period we thought it would be nice to make the most of the lovely weather and have some socially distanced drinks in the No10 garden this evening.

"Please join us from 6pm and bring your own booze!"

There ya go, Nigel. BYOB, let's have some drinks (we've been told there was food too), nary a mention of "work." A big indication that it was a reward for all their hard work. At that time, the maximum number of people you were allowed to meet outdoors was two. In fact, just an hour before, Oliver Dowden had publicly warned us of just that.

What part of "illegal" are you failing to grasp here?


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 24 Jan 22 - 12:52 PM

The straws you are clinging too are getting desperately thin, Nigel.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 24 Jan 22 - 11:10 AM

Judging by the way words are being stressed by Nadhim Zahawi, the report is going to be hidden from both public and wider Parliamentary view, with only the 'findings' released. What that means is anyone's guess, but it could be a one page summary simply saying Johnson should have done more to deal with the original party - which he has already admitted at PMQs - but it is outside her remit to say if anything was illegal - which it is.

If anyone imagines it will stop there, they have grossly mistaken the public view on these matters.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Raggytash
Date: 24 Jan 22 - 10:43 AM

If the man who is at the head of the body that makes the rules has to be advised that what he is doing may break those rules one has to consider if he is competent to lead that body.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 24 Jan 22 - 10:24 AM

Steve:
Cling on there, Nigel, cling on... :-)

But no response to the question of how you know that the meetings were illegal, despite your insistence that that was the case?

You may be proved to be right in time, but stating now that they were illegal is 'prejudice'.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 24 Jan 22 - 10:21 AM

Dave:
Going back to earlier comments, how many works meetings have you attended where the invitation says bring your own booze?
None that I can remember, but I have been to works meetings where booze was available. Maybe 'bring your own booze' was insisted on to avoid passing bottles back and forth with the increased Covid risk.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 24 Jan 22 - 09:30 AM

They can call it what they like, Nigel. Every man and his dog knows it was a party. Going back to earlier comments, how many works meetings have you attended where the invitation says bring your own booze?


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Jan 22 - 08:59 AM

Cling on there, Nigel, cling on... :-)


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 24 Jan 22 - 08:44 AM

The gatherings were illegal, Nigel.

On what do you base that? The Met have said that they will investigate if they have any information on illegal gatherings. If they were 'parties' they were almost certainly illegal. If they were working meetings between people who would otherwise have been mixing indoors that may be a wholly different matter.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 Jan 22 - 07:57 AM

It's by no means unusual for journalists to carry out what is genuinely work in a drinking context - interviews and such carried out in pubs etc. I'd suspect that would have been very much Boris's style. And the same can be true in political circles - beer and sandwiches in negotiations with Trades Unions back in the old days, political shenanigans in the Commons Bars.

In itself the presence of drink doesn't rule out the possibility that people are working. But there's a limit, and it seems clear that this was well and truly crossed on numerous occasions.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 24 Jan 22 - 07:36 AM

Raggy, in every company I worked for from 1980 until I retired in 2012, alcohol was forbidden on the premises. Bringing alcohol on to company premises would render the offender subject to disciplinary proceedings for gross misconduct, putting it into the same group of offences as assault, fighting, sexual harassment, theft, etc., the penalty for which was dismissal without notice.

That rule applied to every employee and director, from the MD/CEO downwards.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Raggytash
Date: 24 Jan 22 - 07:13 AM

" all day every day in this period there were many work meetings in the No10 garden."

I don't know about your personal working life Nigel but in any position I have ever held if I had turned up to a meeting with a bottle of wine questions about my suitabitity for the position may have been questioned.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: An Buachaill Caol Dubh
Date: 23 Jan 22 - 10:08 PM

That does indeed add a new perspective, and shines a - rather unsteady - light on the doings of our superiors, elected or no. "All day every day", is it? No wonder BJ didn't notice there was more alcohol around than usual. It's a wonder he was able to shamble back into the housie to "continue working", or whatever.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Jan 22 - 07:50 PM

The gatherings were illegal, Nigel.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 23 Jan 22 - 07:44 PM

The Telegraph (Ok, not impartial) has today (Sunday) quoted a blog from Dominic Cummings (possibly the source of anti-Boris briefings) which sheds a whole new light on 'Partygate':
"Because No10s political and communications operation has imploded, it has failed to explain something very obvious to anybody working there at the time: No10 staff were ENCOURAGED to have meetings in the garden April-August for the obvious reason that we were in a pandemic with an airborne disease and being outside was safer! all day every day in this period there were many work meetings in the No10 garden."

Adds a new perspective?


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 23 Jan 22 - 02:47 PM

Me? Ironic? Surely not...

:-D


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: An Buachaill Caol Dubh
Date: 23 Jan 22 - 02:44 PM

I'm certain sure that you're being ironic in making a "sweeping statement" such as that, Dave the Gnome. Amidst all the flotsam, jetsam and swimming rodents surrounding the wreck of the Ship of State, one question occurs to me which I haven't yet heard asked about the various get-togethers in Downing Street; why is it that those who were best informed about the Coronavirus were clearly unconcerned about any consequences of such gatherings, at least with regard to health? Or were they all wearing PPE?


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 23 Jan 22 - 01:14 PM

I see that the Islamophobia that everyone else knew existed in the Tory Party has now surfaced in the mainstream media. Still, could be worse. We could have ended up with Jeremy Corbyn...

LABOUR ANTISEMITISM!!!


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 23 Jan 22 - 05:11 AM

Two legs on my Bonzo, but he's still posting along.....

Sorry, couldn't resist it......


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 23 Jan 22 - 01:55 AM

Sorry for the typo reducing Bonzo's legs even further.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 23 Jan 22 - 01:53 AM

This seems a strange diversion into personal taxation arising from a comment of Bonzo2Legs, when we had been talking about MPs potentially being 'blackmailed'. Admittedly we only got there after queries about the most aesthetically way of phrasing it, rather than the substance.

The current state of play is that the MP concerned, Christian Wakeford, has told the Sunday Times that the threat came from Gavin WIlliamson, then Education Secretary. Quoting the article:

In October 2020 the footballer Marcus Rashford vented his despair at MPs voting down proposals to extend free school meals during holidays. He was not the only one.

Christian Wakeford, then Conservative MP for Bury South, a few miles north of Rashford’s Manchester United home ground, Old Trafford, was also appalled by the move. The 37-year-old, who had been elected to the Commons the previous year, told friends it was mean-spirited and the opposite of what red wall MPs were elected to do.

Yet rather than voting for the opposition motion on school meals, and against the government, he abstained. His decision was informed by a conversation he had had with a colleague shortly before the vote.

Wakeford says Gavin Williamson, then education secretary, pulled him out of the Members’ Dining Room of the House of Commons and threatened to cancel plans for a new school in his constituency if he did “not vote in one particular way”. He first made the allegation, without identifying the culprit, last week.

Asked today who threatened to scrap the school, he said: “It was Gavin Williamson.”


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Jan 22 - 04:57 PM

Everywhere I looked, Nigel (and it's been a couple of years and I can't remember exactly), the advice was that you could give £3000 per annum before tax liabilities potentially kicked in, plus a number of gifts not exceeding £250 each, but it was not made clear that this only applied if your assets went beyond the nil rate band. Understand that most of us non-millionaires only have to grapple with this a couple of times, if that, in our lives, and that it's a learning curve every time. I spent hours and hours on this, wondering whether my mum could give all us kids the money from house she'd sold for £125000 after my dad died (she could, no hassle), without a tax liability kicking in. We're not all accountants or people who are genned up on every aspect of tax law. The information on this was extremely difficult to obtain.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 22 Jan 22 - 03:06 PM

You have to be pretty wealthy before you need to worry about being taxed from your estate on gifts, and then only if you fail to live seven years after the giving (there's a taper). If your assets are below the IHT threshold, you have no problems no matter how much you give, and if you're married your threshold is double. After my parents died within the last few years I found most online advice on this to be opaque and unhelpful..

You probably didn't look at the HMRC advice, which appears to be both clear and explicit. Any other 'advice' is based on the HMRC instructions, but may lose something in translation.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Jan 22 - 01:15 PM

You have to be pretty wealthy before you need to worry about being taxed from your estate on gifts, and then only if you fail to live seven years after the giving (there's a taper). If your assets are below the IHT threshold, you have no problems no matter how much you give, and if you're married your threshold is double. After my parents died within the last few years I found most online advice on this to be opaque and unhelpful.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 22 Jan 22 - 12:33 PM

It has been alleged that Conservative ministers and whips began spreading rumours about Christian Wakeford’s personal life minutes after the MP defected to Labour, amid growing concerns over dirty tactics in politics.

Still no better, Nigel. It loses the emphasis of the first where it says "it has been alleged amid growing concerns" etc. Anywho - Here is the headline that you missed which states in big letters, twice, that it is an allegation

Tory whips allegedly tried to smear Christian Wakeford after defection

Exclusive: Allegations emerge of attempts to spread rumours about Bury South MP minutes after he crossed floor


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 22 Jan 22 - 10:33 AM

Don't forget you can give away up to £3,000 a year, thereby reducing the value of your estate for inheritance tax purposes

But if you do forget you can carry the £3000- gift exemption forward to next year (but for 1 year only)
Also, if you made no gifts last year (6 April 2020 - 5 April 2021) you can carry that year's exemption forward and gift £6,000- this tax year without affecting inheritance tax.

HMRC Inheritance Tax - Gifts


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 22 Jan 22 - 10:23 AM

Dave: If they moved "it has been alleged" to the start of the comment yes, they would need to re-write it slightly, such as by adding 'that' after 'alleged'

Steve: We have to forgive journalists somewhat as they have to cover their arses for fear of being sued!
The easiest way to avoid being sued is to quote the truth. 'Weasel words' are only required by those who rush to print without first checking their facts/sources.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 22 Jan 22 - 09:19 AM

Don't forget you can give away up to £3,000 a year, thereby reducing the value of your estate for inheritance tax purposes!!!


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 22 Jan 22 - 09:16 AM

The deadline to file UK 2021 tax return and pay any tax due remains 31 January 2022. The penalty waivers will mean that:

1. anyone who cannot file their return by the 31 January deadline will not receive a late filing penalty if they file online by 28 February

2. anyone who cannot pay their Self Assessment tax by the 31 January deadline will not receive a late payment penalty if they pay their tax in full, or set up a Time to Pay arrangement, by 1 April

However - Interest will be payable from 1 February, as usual on any unpaid tax, so it is still better to pay on time if possible.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Jan 22 - 07:20 AM

Actually, things such as "it has been alleged" come into a similar category as "experts have found that..." and "it has been claimed...", all prime examples of weasel words. We have to forgive journalists somewhat as they have to cover their arses for fear of being sued!


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Jan 22 - 07:16 AM

:-)


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 22 Jan 22 - 06:55 AM

If they moved "it has been alleged" to the start of the comment it loses grammatical correctness and that would have been picked up by you instead, Nigel


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Jan 22 - 05:02 AM

Referring back to the article, I note that the headline of the piece, which I didn't quote, has "allegedly" as its third word.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Jan 22 - 08:43 PM

Take it up with the Grauniad, Nigel. I found the report to be unobjectionable, though corroboration is clearly needed.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 21 Jan 22 - 08:28 PM

From the latest post:
Conservative ministers and whips began spreading rumours about Christian Wakeford’s personal life minutes after the MP defected to Labour, it has been alleged amid growing concerns over dirty tactics in politics.

Would it be too much to ask that the 'it has been alleged' came at the start of the comment?

This smacks of comments on BBC where a tirade is given against someone, and, at the very end, they add thge word 'allegedly' to try and cover themselves.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Jan 22 - 07:58 PM

From the Guardian website on Friday:

Conservative ministers and whips began spreading rumours about Christian Wakeford’s personal life minutes after the MP defected to Labour, it has been alleged amid growing concerns over dirty tactics in politics.

The Guardian has been told that senior members of the government spread the rumours in parliament after the MP for Bury South crossed the floor on Wednesday.

A Labour source said the party had prepared Wakeford before his defection for the possibility of the Tories or hostile media trying to dig around in his private life.


Well now. That all has to be substantiated. Does it seem within spec to you?


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 21 Jan 22 - 02:17 PM

He has probably got them this senior school at least. If there is no sign of it being approved by the next general election, it will certainly be remembered and count against the Conservative candidate.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Jan 22 - 01:15 PM

I hope not too. He needs (not necessarily deserves) the chance to show that he's the real deal, a proper fighter for his community, which, for goodness sake, needs a fighter. One of the reasons he crossed was because he couldn't stomach the threat of the whip attacking his community.

If Johnson were to be chucked out and replaced, it wouldn't trigger an election, would it? Yet there's been plenty of chatter about it was Johnson's charisma wot won it... Watch out for double standards here...


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 Jan 22 - 12:22 PM

I don't think there will be a byelection even if there is a strong call for it. Just my opinion of course!


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 21 Jan 22 - 12:07 PM

It seems there is a strong call for a bye election in Bury. That would be a real problem for Labour. Their original candidate only lost by about 400 votes. It is reasonable to assume Christian Wakeford would lose some votes by being seen as untrustworthy or a turncoat, to quote some of the accusations. So who should they have as their candidate? Tricky...


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 21 Jan 22 - 11:54 AM

Steve: "The BBC do aim for a diverse audience, but it's surely not unknown for people to lie on their application forms?"

Only lefties, Nigel. As we've discovered over recent weeks and months.


If you had read the comment immediately above yours you would see that I had already agreed with Raggytash that "It works both ways!"


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 21 Jan 22 - 10:49 AM

I was on Question Tume once as well, though I did not ask a question (which would have been about the cost of repairs to the Houses of Parliament
)

There was a fairly elaborate interview beforehand, as Steve reports.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Jan 22 - 09:37 AM

"The BBC do aim for a diverse audience, but it's surely not unknown for people to lie on their application forms?"

Only lefties, Nigel. As we've discovered over recent weeks and months. Tories never, ever lie about anything. Why, we know that "conservatism" and "integrity" are actual similes!

Don't we, Nigel?

I was actually in a Question Time audience once. Before we were selected we were grilled over the telephone about our circumstances, our views on all sorts and our political affiliations or allegiances. The panel was Shami Chakrabarti, Margaret ******* Hodge, that LibDem MP who had to leave in disgrace over a rent-boy scandal - Mark Oaten, that was him - Liam ******* Fox and some right-wing bellend who once justified waterboarding at Gitmo. My lad, in his early twenties at the time, kept elbowing me in the ribs to stick my hand up. It worked and Bumblebee picked me out. So I made an extremely boring comment during an extremely boring topic about whether the Lords should be elected. Three million people saw me doing it. It's been downhill ever since...


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 21 Jan 22 - 07:49 AM

Raggytash: Yes, it can work both ways.

It could also be that members of the audience did not wish to speak out and be identified. It's a common occurrence, to avoid vilification. The UK often has a 'silent majority' which is why pollsters can predict elections/referendums one way, but, following a secret ballot, the outcome confounds them.
The Conservatives insisted on proper secret ballots for 'industrial action' to prevent the old-fashioned 'show of hands' intimidating those at union meetings from showing their true feelings.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 Jan 22 - 07:24 AM

Sorry Nigel. I know you are not chief Whip! Stephen Kerr is and I missed out his name. Mea Culpa.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 Jan 22 - 07:22 AM

Nigel, chief whip for Scottish Conservatives, was on the panal and even he does not support Boris.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Raggytash
Date: 21 Jan 22 - 07:15 AM

"The BBC do aim for a diverse audience, but it's surely not unknown for people to lie on their application forms?"

You may be correct Nigel and if you are surely conservatives supporters could claim to be labour supporters just as easily as labour supporters could claim to be conservative supporters.

Just saying like ....................


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 21 Jan 22 - 07:09 AM

Dave (tG):
Did you see Question Time from Stan Drews last night? When Fiona asked if anyone wanted to support Boris, there was a distinct tumbleweed moment.

At least Fiona followed it up by saying "I know we have Conservatives in the audience" otherwise I would have assumed that they had an all Left audience.
The BBC do aim for a diverse audience, but it's surely not unknown for people to lie on their application forms?


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