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BS: Brexit & other UK political topics

Steve Shaw 22 Jan 22 - 07:20 AM
Steve Shaw 22 Jan 22 - 07:16 AM
Dave the Gnome 22 Jan 22 - 06:55 AM
Steve Shaw 22 Jan 22 - 05:02 AM
Steve Shaw 21 Jan 22 - 08:43 PM
Nigel Parsons 21 Jan 22 - 08:28 PM
Steve Shaw 21 Jan 22 - 07:58 PM
DMcG 21 Jan 22 - 02:17 PM
Steve Shaw 21 Jan 22 - 01:15 PM
Dave the Gnome 21 Jan 22 - 12:22 PM
DMcG 21 Jan 22 - 12:07 PM
Nigel Parsons 21 Jan 22 - 11:54 AM
DMcG 21 Jan 22 - 10:49 AM
Steve Shaw 21 Jan 22 - 09:37 AM
Nigel Parsons 21 Jan 22 - 07:49 AM
Dave the Gnome 21 Jan 22 - 07:24 AM
Dave the Gnome 21 Jan 22 - 07:22 AM
Raggytash 21 Jan 22 - 07:15 AM
Nigel Parsons 21 Jan 22 - 07:09 AM
Steve Shaw 21 Jan 22 - 05:00 AM
Dave the Gnome 21 Jan 22 - 02:41 AM
Steve Shaw 20 Jan 22 - 07:40 PM
Steve Shaw 20 Jan 22 - 01:36 PM
Dave the Gnome 20 Jan 22 - 01:18 PM
Steve Shaw 20 Jan 22 - 11:27 AM
Dave the Gnome 20 Jan 22 - 10:47 AM
Nigel Parsons 20 Jan 22 - 09:49 AM
Dave the Gnome 20 Jan 22 - 08:38 AM
Steve Shaw 20 Jan 22 - 08:16 AM
Backwoodsman 20 Jan 22 - 07:47 AM
Backwoodsman 20 Jan 22 - 07:08 AM
DMcG 20 Jan 22 - 06:34 AM
Nigel Parsons 20 Jan 22 - 06:03 AM
Backwoodsman 20 Jan 22 - 05:31 AM
Steve Shaw 20 Jan 22 - 05:13 AM
Dave the Gnome 20 Jan 22 - 04:46 AM
Steve Shaw 19 Jan 22 - 04:01 PM
Backwoodsman 19 Jan 22 - 03:55 PM
Dave the Gnome 19 Jan 22 - 02:05 PM
Backwoodsman 19 Jan 22 - 12:44 PM
Steve Shaw 19 Jan 22 - 12:24 PM
Dave the Gnome 19 Jan 22 - 12:19 PM
SPB-Cooperator 19 Jan 22 - 08:55 AM
DMcG 19 Jan 22 - 08:08 AM
Backwoodsman 19 Jan 22 - 07:56 AM
Steve Shaw 19 Jan 22 - 07:52 AM
Rain Dog 19 Jan 22 - 06:40 AM
DMcG 19 Jan 22 - 06:21 AM
Steve Shaw 19 Jan 22 - 05:16 AM
Steve Shaw 19 Jan 22 - 05:16 AM
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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Jan 22 - 07:20 AM

Actually, things such as "it has been alleged" come into a similar category as "experts have found that..." and "it has been claimed...", all prime examples of weasel words. We have to forgive journalists somewhat as they have to cover their arses for fear of being sued!


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Jan 22 - 07:16 AM

:-)


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 22 Jan 22 - 06:55 AM

If they moved "it has been alleged" to the start of the comment it loses grammatical correctness and that would have been picked up by you instead, Nigel


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Jan 22 - 05:02 AM

Referring back to the article, I note that the headline of the piece, which I didn't quote, has "allegedly" as its third word.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Jan 22 - 08:43 PM

Take it up with the Grauniad, Nigel. I found the report to be unobjectionable, though corroboration is clearly needed.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 21 Jan 22 - 08:28 PM

From the latest post:
Conservative ministers and whips began spreading rumours about Christian Wakeford’s personal life minutes after the MP defected to Labour, it has been alleged amid growing concerns over dirty tactics in politics.

Would it be too much to ask that the 'it has been alleged' came at the start of the comment?

This smacks of comments on BBC where a tirade is given against someone, and, at the very end, they add thge word 'allegedly' to try and cover themselves.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Jan 22 - 07:58 PM

From the Guardian website on Friday:

Conservative ministers and whips began spreading rumours about Christian Wakeford’s personal life minutes after the MP defected to Labour, it has been alleged amid growing concerns over dirty tactics in politics.

The Guardian has been told that senior members of the government spread the rumours in parliament after the MP for Bury South crossed the floor on Wednesday.

A Labour source said the party had prepared Wakeford before his defection for the possibility of the Tories or hostile media trying to dig around in his private life.


Well now. That all has to be substantiated. Does it seem within spec to you?


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 21 Jan 22 - 02:17 PM

He has probably got them this senior school at least. If there is no sign of it being approved by the next general election, it will certainly be remembered and count against the Conservative candidate.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Jan 22 - 01:15 PM

I hope not too. He needs (not necessarily deserves) the chance to show that he's the real deal, a proper fighter for his community, which, for goodness sake, needs a fighter. One of the reasons he crossed was because he couldn't stomach the threat of the whip attacking his community.

If Johnson were to be chucked out and replaced, it wouldn't trigger an election, would it? Yet there's been plenty of chatter about it was Johnson's charisma wot won it... Watch out for double standards here...


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 Jan 22 - 12:22 PM

I don't think there will be a byelection even if there is a strong call for it. Just my opinion of course!


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 21 Jan 22 - 12:07 PM

It seems there is a strong call for a bye election in Bury. That would be a real problem for Labour. Their original candidate only lost by about 400 votes. It is reasonable to assume Christian Wakeford would lose some votes by being seen as untrustworthy or a turncoat, to quote some of the accusations. So who should they have as their candidate? Tricky...


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 21 Jan 22 - 11:54 AM

Steve: "The BBC do aim for a diverse audience, but it's surely not unknown for people to lie on their application forms?"

Only lefties, Nigel. As we've discovered over recent weeks and months.


If you had read the comment immediately above yours you would see that I had already agreed with Raggytash that "It works both ways!"


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 21 Jan 22 - 10:49 AM

I was on Question Tume once as well, though I did not ask a question (which would have been about the cost of repairs to the Houses of Parliament
)

There was a fairly elaborate interview beforehand, as Steve reports.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Jan 22 - 09:37 AM

"The BBC do aim for a diverse audience, but it's surely not unknown for people to lie on their application forms?"

Only lefties, Nigel. As we've discovered over recent weeks and months. Tories never, ever lie about anything. Why, we know that "conservatism" and "integrity" are actual similes!

Don't we, Nigel?

I was actually in a Question Time audience once. Before we were selected we were grilled over the telephone about our circumstances, our views on all sorts and our political affiliations or allegiances. The panel was Shami Chakrabarti, Margaret ******* Hodge, that LibDem MP who had to leave in disgrace over a rent-boy scandal - Mark Oaten, that was him - Liam ******* Fox and some right-wing bellend who once justified waterboarding at Gitmo. My lad, in his early twenties at the time, kept elbowing me in the ribs to stick my hand up. It worked and Bumblebee picked me out. So I made an extremely boring comment during an extremely boring topic about whether the Lords should be elected. Three million people saw me doing it. It's been downhill ever since...


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 21 Jan 22 - 07:49 AM

Raggytash: Yes, it can work both ways.

It could also be that members of the audience did not wish to speak out and be identified. It's a common occurrence, to avoid vilification. The UK often has a 'silent majority' which is why pollsters can predict elections/referendums one way, but, following a secret ballot, the outcome confounds them.
The Conservatives insisted on proper secret ballots for 'industrial action' to prevent the old-fashioned 'show of hands' intimidating those at union meetings from showing their true feelings.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 Jan 22 - 07:24 AM

Sorry Nigel. I know you are not chief Whip! Stephen Kerr is and I missed out his name. Mea Culpa.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 Jan 22 - 07:22 AM

Nigel, chief whip for Scottish Conservatives, was on the panal and even he does not support Boris.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Raggytash
Date: 21 Jan 22 - 07:15 AM

"The BBC do aim for a diverse audience, but it's surely not unknown for people to lie on their application forms?"

You may be correct Nigel and if you are surely conservatives supporters could claim to be labour supporters just as easily as labour supporters could claim to be conservative supporters.

Just saying like ....................


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 21 Jan 22 - 07:09 AM

Dave (tG):
Did you see Question Time from Stan Drews last night? When Fiona asked if anyone wanted to support Boris, there was a distinct tumbleweed moment.

At least Fiona followed it up by saying "I know we have Conservatives in the audience" otherwise I would have assumed that they had an all Left audience.
The BBC do aim for a diverse audience, but it's surely not unknown for people to lie on their application forms?


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Jan 22 - 05:00 AM

I did! Quite a moment was that. If I were 40 years younger and Scottish I think I might be joining the SNP... ;-)


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 Jan 22 - 02:41 AM

I think it's probably legal to sell alcohol anywhere now it is classed as office supplies :-D

Did you see Question Time from Stan Drews last night? When Fiona asked if anyone wanted to support Boris, there was a distinct tumbleweed moment.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Jan 22 - 07:40 PM

The Ghanaian footballer Thomas Partey, who was sent off for Arsenal tonight against Liverpool, has been dubbed by the Liverpool Echo and lots of others "Thomas Work-Event."

Liverpool beat Arsenal 2-0 on aggregate to go through the Carabao Cup final (we used to call it the League Cup), by the way. Can't think why I mentioned that...


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Jan 22 - 01:36 PM

As with Dud applying for the job of Tarzan, even though he had only the one leg ("a unidexter"), with Pete as the interviewer:

Pete:
Well, Mr. Spiggott, need I point out to you where your deficiency lies as regards landing the role?

Dud:
Yes, I think you ought to.

Pete:
Need I say without overmuch emphasis that it is in the leg division that you are deficient.

Dud:
The leg division?

Pete:
Yes, the leg division, Mr. Spiggott. You are deficient in it to the tune of one. Your right leg I like. I like your right leg. A lovely leg for the role. That's what I said when I saw you come in. I said "A lovely leg for the role." I've got nothing against your right leg. The trouble is - neither have you....


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 Jan 22 - 01:18 PM

Don't try that here, Steve. You have not got a leg to stand on


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Jan 22 - 11:27 AM

Which reminds me...See joke thread...


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 Jan 22 - 10:47 AM

Well I never! Thanks Nigel.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 20 Jan 22 - 09:49 AM

Dave: Talking about 'daft arguments':
Apparently cutting off the wrong leg does not debar you from being a surgeon: BBC News 2021


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 Jan 22 - 08:38 AM

There are some really daft arguments on radio talk shows at times. Today's cracker

"Well, we all make mistakes. We should just let him get on with his job"

I wonder if he would say that about a surgeon who cut the wrong leg off?


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Jan 22 - 08:16 AM

A bit of sour grapes, Nigel?

Many people in Labour will have mixed feelings about Christian Wakefield. But his defection was no sudden decision. He's been unhappy with Tory policies for a while (a mind-changer, definitely, on some) and has been contemplating this move for months. He's also worked closely with Barry Gardiner, who likes him and who encouraged him to join Labour. He's a Lancashire lad, from Burnley, hardly the most affluent area of the country, though his forays as a Tory in local government politics in the area centred more around the rural (Tory) parts around Pendle. I'm confident that he'll find that his true, natural home will be in Labour.

I know that constituency better than any other (as Dave will know). My mum was brought up in Whitefield, in a street that would have been just behind Morrisons, and went to school in Prestwich at Our Lady Of Grace. My grandad and uncle both played in Besses brass band, and grandad and grandma lived in a tiny council house in Whitefield. I was born and bred in Radcliffe, where my mum and dad lived all their 67 years of married life until my dad died in 2018, so I was up there an awful lot even though I moved away half a century ago. I watched the awful decline of Radcliffe from being a bustling and vibrant mill town with an amazing sense of community into a sorry, hollowed-out backwater with no secondary schools and just about the dowdiest town centre you've ever seen, made worse by being sliced in two by a huge arterial road, all-in-all a typical plight of many a northern town ignored by politicians.


On the day of his defection, Wakeford wrote, "the policies of the Conservative government that you [Johnson] lead are doing nothing to help the people of my constituency and indeed are only making the struggles they face on a daily basis worse." He wrote that he had no doubt his constituents would best benefit from his "joining a party that genuinely has their interests at heart."

I strongly feel, knowing the area as I do, that he's the sort of MP that's sorely needed there. As long as he remains sincere. A big if...


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 20 Jan 22 - 07:47 AM

Nigel might be very surprised to learn that I agree with the principle proposed in the Manchester Evening News article that, when an MP ‘crosses the floor’ and changes his/her party-affiliation, there should be a by-election in their constituency. For the past fifty years or more, the inclusion of party-affiliation on election polling slips has meant that votes are probably cast less on the basis of the individual, and far more on the basis of the party under whose banner they are standing for election. It seems to me to be only fair that, having elected the candidate of a specific party to serve for a full term, constituents should be given the opportunity to vote again if the elected Member decides to transfer to a different side.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 20 Jan 22 - 07:08 AM

Reports on BBC News right now of rebel Tory MPs being intimidated/threatened by their party to withdraw their support for a VONC against Johnson. Intimidation allegedly includes threats to withdraw finance/support for projects in the MP’s constituencies.

A lovely lot, aren’t they? NOT,


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 20 Jan 22 - 06:34 AM

My opinion (recorded on another site) was that if Johnson did not go on 17-19 because of feedback from the MPs constituents, he is probably safe until the May elections. Gray's report will lead to some more letters going in, but I doubt if it will be enough to be decisive. A lot of financial flak will hit people in April, and I don't think the potential replacements for Johnson want to be on the receiving end of that, so they are happy to wait it out.

I heard one of the government spokesmen saying what people cared about were things like the UK having the fastest GDP growth in it the G7. Stuff and nonsense, in my view. They care about the cost of petrol. The cost of gas and electricity. The price of food. Whether their wages cover the month (or week) without having to make significant choices like food or heating. Abstractions like GDP and whether G7 is more significant than other comparisons are from a different world to their experiences.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 20 Jan 22 - 06:03 AM

Christian Wakefield:
The Labour Party are welcome to him. His departure seems to have somewhat stifled Conservative action about Boris.

To quote the Manchester Evening News

In September 2020, he presented and backed the Recall of MPs (Change of Party Affiliation) Bill - which was sponsored by Conservative MP Anthony Mangnall.
The bill would enable constituents to recall their MP and call a by-election if they 'voluntarily change their political party affiliation'.

Young Labour said in a Tweet: "The Labour Party must uphold Bury South members’ right to choose their own Labour candidate and constituents should be able to reassess their MP."


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 20 Jan 22 - 05:31 AM

He won’t resign - not only his immensely-wealthy puppeteers, but his own huge ego, won’t allow it - and I can’t imagine for one second that Sue Gray will cross her boss. Tory MPs, in the main, know he’s the only reason they walked away with the 2019, and thus was responsible for them winning or holding their seats, so they won’t push for a VONC in sufficient numbers. I’m sure we’re stuck with him until 2024 at least.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Jan 22 - 05:13 AM

It seems that in the short term Christian Wakefield could have given Johnson a bit of breathing space. Johnson is clearly determined to dig in and hold his ground. I think the best outcome for Labour would be for Johnson to face a vote of no confidence from the Tories and win it narrowly. It would still be a fatal wound. I don't think that will happen. He's going to grind away and dig in and get away with all this. It's a long time until 2024. Of course, Sue Gray could change all this, but, as he's her boss...


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 Jan 22 - 04:46 AM

The better news is that the odious Tommy Robinson may get his comeuppance.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Jan 22 - 04:01 PM

De nada!


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 19 Jan 22 - 03:55 PM

Sorry Steve, I hadn’t noticed that you’d already noted the Tory Lackey’s resorting to the ‘Labour Anti-semitism’ nonsense after PMQs. I have to say I’m quite pleased he stooped so low - it’s an indication that they’re running scared.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 19 Jan 22 - 02:05 PM

Has anyone else noticed the 'argument by soundbite' tactic that Bozo is employing more and more? I suppose 'Get Brexit Done' won him an election but does he really need to use daft statements like "we delivered while they dithered" and "we vaccinated while they vacillated"? He needs a new scriptwriter!


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 19 Jan 22 - 12:44 PM

It’s a lot better than if it had been the other way round, Dave!

I see the Tory cowboys are drawing the wagons into a circle around their beleaguered leader (hopefully soon to be ex-leader), and are loading up their weapons with ‘Anti-Semitic Labour’ bullets - some Tory puppet firing off the first salvo post-PMQs today.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Jan 22 - 12:24 PM

Let's give him a whirl, Dave!


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 19 Jan 22 - 12:19 PM

What do we think of Christian Wakeford? A good move for Labour or rats leaving a sinking ship?


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 19 Jan 22 - 08:55 AM

True, unless they want to stand on the platform that the tory party fielded an anti-semitic candidate in 2019.

I wish that johnson would stop dragging up EMA. As we were part of the EMA up to December 31st 2020, and we were still able to develop our own vaccination programme under EU regulations when will the speaker apoligise to the people of the UK for allowing johnson to lie to the UK population week in week out? Or is it a simple case that the three-quarters of a million first vaccinations reported by the NHS in December 2020 were a lie, and anyone who says they were vaccinate din that time are liars?

If, in the future, being outside the EMA this means that it will be easier for pharmaceutical companies to get medicines onto chemist shelves quicker, which shortcuts in medicine standards approval. I suppose, for example, another tragedy such as thalidomide is a price worth paying if tory donors can get rich quicker.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 19 Jan 22 - 08:08 AM

I note that the Tory lackey interviewed by the BBC dredged up the antisemitism card

Yes, that struck me as well. If that is how they intend to fight for Bury, I don't think it will work this time.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 19 Jan 22 - 07:56 AM

Watching PMQs this lunch-time, I do have to wonder if members of the Parliamentary Conservative Party, and those who voted Tory in the 2019 GE, have begun to understand the innate truth of the old adage, ‘When you elect a clown, you end up with a circus’?


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Jan 22 - 07:52 AM

Just watched PMQs and I'm wondering whether David Davis is the new Geoffrey Howe...

Another lethal blow was the defection of the Bury South MP to Labour. That's my original home constituency. I note that the Tory lackey interviewed by the BBC dredged up the antisemitism card. Nasty piece of work.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Rain Dog
Date: 19 Jan 22 - 06:40 AM

"Mind you, just think of the awful people waiting in the shadows..."

Exactly. It is highly likely that will elect a tory to lead their party.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 19 Jan 22 - 06:21 AM

Just reading a 2009 paper co-authored by Liz Truss.
There are just some of the section heading from Chapter 5:
Work, Pensions and Health – cutting programmes and entitlements
* Restructure pensions
* Abolish mandatory retirement age of 65
* Remove gimmicky pension add-ons (things like winter fuel allowance)
* Simplify out of work benefits
* Target child benefit
Health
* Cut capital programme
* End public health campaigns
* Introduce user charges for GPs
Just so you know what you have to look forward to if she becomes Johnson's replacement.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Jan 22 - 05:16 AM

I left out a thing...


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Jan 22 - 05:16 AM

Me too, but you wouldn't know it... ;-)

Looks like the Tories are doing the only that the Tories do best - getting out the long knives and closing in on their leader. Remember the fall of Maggie Thatcher, largely brought about by quiet remarks from Geoffrey Howe (of whom it had previously been said by Denis Healey, somewhat mistakenly, that debating with him was like being savaged by a dead sheep). Is there a Sir Geoffrey in the house?

Mind you, just think of the awful people waiting in the shadows...Truss...Sunak...Gove... Maybe the modest Jeremy Hunt (slightly unfairly said by some to be the Cockney rhyming slang of what they regard as his more appropriate name, unfortunately exposed by Jim Naughtie's amusing slip of the tongue) will turn out to be the new John Major... Any bets?


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