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BS: Brexit & other UK political topics

Nigel Parsons 07 Sep 21 - 07:48 AM
DMcG 07 Sep 21 - 07:44 AM
Backwoodsman 07 Sep 21 - 07:42 AM
DMcG 07 Sep 21 - 07:26 AM
DMcG 07 Sep 21 - 07:20 AM
Nigel Parsons 07 Sep 21 - 06:54 AM
Dave the Gnome 07 Sep 21 - 06:27 AM
DMcG 07 Sep 21 - 04:44 AM
Dave the Gnome 07 Sep 21 - 03:48 AM
Steve Shaw 07 Sep 21 - 02:54 AM
Backwoodsman 04 Sep 21 - 06:54 AM
Raggytash 04 Sep 21 - 06:34 AM
Backwoodsman 04 Sep 21 - 04:53 AM
Dave the Gnome 04 Sep 21 - 04:14 AM
Backwoodsman 02 Sep 21 - 12:01 PM
Rain Dog 02 Sep 21 - 10:14 AM
Dave the Gnome 24 Aug 21 - 12:28 PM
DMcG 23 Aug 21 - 04:38 PM
Nigel Parsons 23 Aug 21 - 12:25 PM
DMcG 22 Aug 21 - 01:20 PM
Nigel Parsons 22 Aug 21 - 12:55 PM
Rain Dog 21 Aug 21 - 04:22 AM
SPB-Cooperator 21 Aug 21 - 03:22 AM
Donuel 20 Aug 21 - 09:16 AM
Dave the Gnome 20 Aug 21 - 07:46 AM
Rain Dog 20 Aug 21 - 01:58 AM
DMcG 20 Aug 21 - 01:40 AM
Rain Dog 19 Aug 21 - 07:50 PM
Dave the Gnome 19 Aug 21 - 04:15 AM
Steve Shaw 19 Aug 21 - 04:09 AM
Dave the Gnome 19 Aug 21 - 04:01 AM
Rain Dog 19 Aug 21 - 03:00 AM
Dave the Gnome 19 Aug 21 - 02:47 AM
Steve Shaw 18 Aug 21 - 04:28 PM
Dave the Gnome 18 Aug 21 - 02:07 PM
Backwoodsman 18 Aug 21 - 11:24 AM
Dave the Gnome 18 Aug 21 - 05:34 AM
DMcG 18 Aug 21 - 04:41 AM
Steve Shaw 18 Aug 21 - 04:34 AM
Rain Dog 18 Aug 21 - 04:28 AM
Backwoodsman 18 Aug 21 - 03:46 AM
DMcG 17 Aug 21 - 06:19 PM
DMcG 17 Aug 21 - 05:52 PM
Steve Shaw 17 Aug 21 - 05:52 PM
Rain Dog 17 Aug 21 - 05:17 PM
DMcG 17 Aug 21 - 04:53 PM
Backwoodsman 17 Aug 21 - 04:36 PM
Steve Shaw 17 Aug 21 - 04:11 PM
Backwoodsman 17 Aug 21 - 03:34 PM
punkfolkrocker 17 Aug 21 - 12:41 PM
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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 07 Sep 21 - 07:48 AM

DMcG: NI is better thought of as a very specific income tax on the employed under 60.

"Under 60"?
NI is payable until you reach State Pension age.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 07 Sep 21 - 07:44 AM

I may have been too hasty in my last post. It seems Johnson has said "He says from next April there will be a new 1.25% health and social care levy, hypothecated by law"

I will have to see precisely what the law says, but for the moment, I withdraw my previous post.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 07 Sep 21 - 07:42 AM

Johnson pontificating in the HoC just now, dropping out the same-old, same-old propaganda that the NHS’s financial problems are somehow the fault of the LP - that, of course, is the LP who last were in government eleven years ago!

When God put teeth in that deceitful PoW’s mouth, he really did waste a good arse.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 07 Sep 21 - 07:26 AM

Following on from that though, Johnson seems to be playing the same trick again. The proposed NI rise to pay for social care and to overcome the NHS backlog is being used, rather than income tax (or, as some of us prefer, inheritance tax) because people have a perception that there is a link between NI charges and NHS funding. But any ringfencing was abandoned years ago: NI is better thought of as a very specific income tax on the employed under 60.

The false association of NI charges and NHS funding makes the increase more palatable than a rise in income tax. But it is spin, that's all, just like the bus.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 07 Sep 21 - 07:20 AM

Equally though, Nigel, are you saying if the vote had been Remain there would have been no rise in the NHS budget?   Surely there would have been. So any rise due to Brexit would rationally have to be over and above that which would happen anyway?

Now, actually knowing how much over and above what would have happen is probably unknowable (though you could perhaps form an estimate of what the rise not due to Brexit would have been if historical trends were followed.) But it is clearly dubious to allocate all the rise to Brexit effects.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 07 Sep 21 - 06:54 AM

Besides, surely the £350,000,000 a week we have saved by leaving the EU is now being used to restore the cradle to grave concept of the NHS. Isn't it?

This one again?

Apart from the fact that the bus did not say that the whole £350m would go to the NHS, a quick check with a reliable source gives the NHS Budget as £137.4bn for 2016/17 and £159bn for 2021/22 a rise of £20bn (in real terms). £350m p/w for 52 weeks comes to just over £18bn

Details taken from here:


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Sep 21 - 06:27 AM

The other thing I am not comfortable with is the two tier care system. Those with the money will get better care than those without and, trust me on this, trying to find a good care home for those without funds is not easy. I also worry about what happens if you are still in care when your funds run out. Do they kick you out of the good care home that you helped to privately fund and put you in an underfunded one? Genuine question - I really don't know

I think it would be fairer all round if the property was left to the estate and inheritance tax was charged. That way, everyone can get the same care without losing their house and inheriting massive estates pay more than those with modest ones. Of course we know that is not the way bozzer and his cronies work.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 07 Sep 21 - 04:44 AM

I agree with you, Steve, that we should really be looking at inheritance taxes for this. (It would also, incidentally, allow the Tories to keep their commitment not to raise VAT, NI or income tax.)

But the effect would not be limited to those with high values estates. Broadly, anyone who currently pays someone as an accountant will find ways to avoid most of the inheritance taxes, probably. These are, though, well aware of the impact of the 'death duties' that ended a lot of old estates and why so many are in the hands of the National Trust instead. The wealthy do not want to see a repeat of that.

Many of us, though, bought a house a decade or more ago and have seen its price double, treble or more in that period. That is unearned income just like that of the super-wealthy. There will be a lot of people upset - i.e. not as likely to vote for you - if the value of their estate is hit too hard. That may be the most just way of paying for things. I think it probably is. But it will cost politicians dear, and so they will avoid it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Sep 21 - 03:48 AM

Problem is, Steve, those with a massive estate to protect have the wherewithal to set up protection for that estate anyway. Those, like us, who have a moderate estate could, possibly, loose it all to care costs. Those with no estate at all are looked after anyway. The other issue is that if long term care is for a physical disability, the NHS fund it. If, however, it is for dementia of any sort the NHS do not fund it and the local authority are empowered to use your estate to provide that funding. There are massive flaws in the system and, while I do not have the answers, I can see that it is distinctly unfair.

Besides, surely the £350,000,000 a week we have saved by leaving the EU is now being used to restore the cradle to grave concept of the NHS. Isn't it?


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Sep 21 - 02:54 AM

I don't give a stuff about Johnson breaking promises (thoroughly expected and unsurprising), but this furious debate about how we should pay for social care is something else. Many of the arguments about how much of your dosh you should keep before the state pays for your care, including keeping your empty house if you move into long-term care, I find to be outrageous. It seems to me that we're arguing for protecting inheritance. Well I don't think inheritance should be protected, obliging the state to pay for the care of people with large assets at a cost to much less well-off working people. If you have assets and you go into care with no prospect of that being turned around, you should pay for yourself. I see it as a pretty simple moral issue. Shoot!


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 04 Sep 21 - 06:54 AM

”A bit of "I'm alright Jack" and I don't give a fig about those who will suffer who tend to be the people at the bottom of the pile anyway.”

In other words, the attitude of your typical Tory - even more vicious when it’s a working-class Tory (or, as my dad always referred to those types, a ‘Mucky-Toff’).


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Raggytash
Date: 04 Sep 21 - 06:34 AM

There was at least one poster on here who was in favour of leaving the EU who thought (or knew) it might have adverse effects on a sizable proportion of the population and was quite happy for that to be the case.

A bit of "I'm alright Jack" and I don't give a fig about those who will suffer who tend to be the people at the bottom of the pile anyway.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 04 Sep 21 - 04:53 AM

Spot on Dave.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 04 Sep 21 - 04:14 AM

There are times when I really hate being right. I honestly wish that all the lies people were told about how good and easy brexit would be turned out to be true. Of course the ardent brexiteers will tell us how much worse it would have been to stay in but that is speculation fuelled by Daily Mail fairy tales. They would rather believe the nonsense spouted by the right wing media than admit they were wrong :-(


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 02 Sep 21 - 12:01 PM

“There will be no downside to Brexit, only a considerable upside.”.
David Davis, 10th October, 2016.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Rain Dog
Date: 02 Sep 21 - 10:14 AM

From The Guardian

Brexit: food and drink exports to EU suffer ‘disastrous’ decline

"Exporters have struggled with the extra paperwork and administrative costs that came into force on 1 January 2021, with companies required to document their products for trading standards, customs and health reasons before entry to the EU.

Food exporters are particularly exposed because of the physical sanitary and phytosanitary (SPS) checks that were not necessary before Brexit, with lorries facing partial or full unloads in Calais and other ports if any of the paperwork is missing."

And

"FDF said imports of food and drink and ingredients could “deteriorate” further in 2022 when full SPS checks on imports are introduced for the first time at Dover and other ports.

While the EU imposed the full suite of documentary, customs and SPS Brexit checks from 1 January, the UK decided to phase them in: new tax checks will be introduced on 1 October and food health checks are scheduled to begin on 1 January."


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 24 Aug 21 - 12:28 PM

Well, it's been sat there long enough

1700!


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 23 Aug 21 - 04:38 PM

No, I am not saying that, Nigel. All human systems have flaws, and some people will cheat them if they think there is a profit to be made. So the EU detection of breaches is part of the enforcement.

It is certainly no justification to abandon all checks and wave through those who want to defraud us.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 23 Aug 21 - 12:25 PM

Dave:
There are minimum standard of SPS required by WTO. These are substantially lower than the EUs standards, and the country concerned has great flexibility in what it chooses to implement. So I accept that when I said' obligatory' I chose a poor word - the obligatory checks are minimal.

So if, as in 2013, a a Romanian-based slaughterhouse chooses to pass off horse meat as beef in the UK, we are under no kind of obligation to have the checks in place to detect it. Even in 2013, it was Ireland that detected it, but that was a role shared across the EU in several places, Now of course, we have to do it on our own - or not bother, of course.


So in effect you're saying that although the EU have higher standards, they don't enforce them.
Just as well we left ;)

In the UK, a House of Commons Select Committee on Environment, Food and Rural Affairs report on the horse meat incident was not critical of UK or Irish producers. It expressed concern that horsemeat contamination was the result of fraud and other criminal activity across the EU. (From Wikipaedia)


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 22 Aug 21 - 01:20 PM

There is a bit of a change of topic, there, Nigel. Understandable given the thread, but a change nevertheless.

"the plans for food and animal sanitary and phytosanitary (SPS) checks at the site had been scrapped" is about all food and animal checks. It should not be confused with the fact my daughter is having problems getting flowers for her wedding.

There are minimum standard of SPS required by WTO. These are substantially lower than the EUs standards, and the country concerned has great flexibility in what it chooses to implement. So I accept that when I said' obligatory' I chose a poor word - the obligatory checks are minimal.

So if, as in 2013, a a Romanian-based slaughterhouse chooses to pass off horse meat as beef in the UK, we are under no kind of obligation to have the checks in place to detect it. Even in 2013, it was Ireland that detected it, but that was a role shared across the EU in several places, Now of course, we have to do it on our own - or not bother, of course.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 22 Aug 21 - 12:55 PM

"the plans for food and animal sanitary and phytosanitary (SPS) checks at the site had been scrapped."

- which raises the question where those obligatory tests will be carried out instead.


But, why are those tests obligatory for plants coming into UK from EU? We accepted the plants before Brexit, so obviously believed that the EU had sufficient checks already in place on the plants, whether sourced from the EU or transiting through the EU.
The fact that we are now entitled to insist on such checks doesn't mean that we have to.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Rain Dog
Date: 21 Aug 21 - 04:22 AM

There have always been customs checks. There were fewer once we became full members of EU but there were still checks.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 21 Aug 21 - 03:22 AM

Rain Dog, There was no need for customs checks before we left EU, so there is no need for them now.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Donuel
Date: 20 Aug 21 - 09:16 AM

There should be plenty of room for presient suppositions. They can often be wildly wrong but Mr. Red has a creative mind by merely delving into possibilities that eventually will have outcomes. My take is that there are so many behavioral apps and selective referrals in some platforms that it is a more complex subject than fluid dynamics. On top of that each app effects other apps, like drug interactions, so I believe no one can truly know what google or Facebook is up to including those in charge. Its the cooler heads that prevail, not as a contest but as insightful hypothesis creators. Even facts get picked to the bone so much that they have a spectrum of meanings.
But dammit some things do have a consensus. Celebrate them when they happen. Reasons given by mods are just as opinionated and random as anyone else. Its great to admit it when there are good decisions. UK threads used to be like a desperate team sport that were practically injurious. Good for tension release but bad for the bullied psyche.
Freedom of speech should allow for you guys to rant as much as your heart desires. (It really won't effect above the line music threads)
Now, back to your regularly scheduled and important discussions and/or rants.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 Aug 21 - 07:46 AM

Just project fear. Everyone knows that Brexit will go smoother than a piece of silk with WD40 sprayed on it. Must be true, Boris said so.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Rain Dog
Date: 20 Aug 21 - 01:58 AM

Indeed it does DMcG.

The reason i highlighted that part was due to our exchange about flowers. The article does state that they are looking for another 2 sites to deal with animal/food/plant checks. It seems highly unlikely that any will be ready in time.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 20 Aug 21 - 01:40 AM

"the plans for food and animal sanitary and phytosanitary (SPS) checks at the site had been scrapped."

- which raises the question where those obligatory tests will be carried out instead.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Rain Dog
Date: 19 Aug 21 - 07:50 PM

From The Guardian

"Controversial plans for an enormous Brexit customs clearance park in Dover with a capacity for 1,200 trucks have been dramatically downsized in a major victory for local opponents.

Devastated homeowners have spent seven months fighting the plans, under which former farmland would have been concreted over, an ancient Roman way destroyed and night-time light and noise pollution caused for families living just 25 metres away.

But at a meeting last Friday, representatives from HM Revenue and Customs confirmed to the local parish council their U-turn.

Instead of 1,200 lorries, the site will now accommodate just 96, with 20 extra spaces for reversing trucks, and take up just a quarter of the original space."

And

"Building work is not due to start until February or March, which means it is unlikely to be ready before the summer six months after Brexit checks will be completely implemented.

This could mean lorries being diverted to the Ashford site closer to the Eurotunnel exit at Folkestone."

And

"A government spokesperson confirmed the downsizing of the White Cliffs site and that the plans for food and animal sanitary and phytosanitary (SPS) checks at the site had been scrapped.

We have reviewed plans for the border facilities in Kent needed to undertake customs, sanitary and phytosanitary inspections on EU goods as it is important we have suitable facilities delivering value for money for taxpayers,” they said."

Dover Brexit lorry park

Good to see that well thought out planning continues.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 19 Aug 21 - 04:15 AM

I'm just going to say cont for short...


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Aug 21 - 04:09 AM

Hm

(Ever the contrarian...)


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 19 Aug 21 - 04:01 AM

Hmmmmmmmmm


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Rain Dog
Date: 19 Aug 21 - 03:00 AM

What's with the hmmm inflation?

17th August Hmmm
18th August Hmmmmm
19th August Hmmmmmmm


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 19 Aug 21 - 02:47 AM

Grudgingly...


Hmmmmmmm


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Aug 21 - 04:28 PM

Due to my herniating discs, I've lost two inches in height over the last ten years. Also, I have a thirty-year-old garden gnome (with a fishing rod and a fish) called Norman who looks great but who's lost a bit of his colouring down the years. I guess that qualifies me to be regarded as gnomic...


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 Aug 21 - 02:07 PM

The first poke I can see in the whole exchange, John, is your "grow the fuck up" immediately after Steve's gnomic (stop gnoming, Shaw!) "Hmmmmm"

I have no axe to grind here but suggest that you save your ire for more deserving targets such as the Tories and their inept opposition.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 18 Aug 21 - 11:24 AM

Ye gods Steve, you do seem to have big mouth issues.

Every time dogs are mentioned you start your poking and prodding. You do it deliberately to get a reaction then, when you get the reaction you were after, you try to take the high moral ground in order to win. Childish playground behaviour, you really ought to be better than that.

Don’t poke and prod, then you won’t get a reaction.

Now I’m done, I have a strong feeling that this is no longer the place for me.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 Aug 21 - 05:34 AM

I don't particularly like dogs. I'm not afraid of them and would never do one any harm but I would never have one. It doesn't make me a worse person. I don't know if Steve is actually afraid of dogs but I, for one, would never laugh at anyones phobias regardless of what they are. I know someone who is terrified of moths. She is neither childish nor a killjoy. To mock someone else's fears shows a distinct lack of sensibility.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 18 Aug 21 - 04:41 AM

I am just going out so have just skimmed this, but it gives a florists view

The impact of Brexit on the cost of flowers


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Aug 21 - 04:34 AM

Ye gods, John, you do seem to have anger issues!


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Rain Dog
Date: 18 Aug 21 - 04:28 AM

DMcG

I have had a search for info but have only found general information. The flower business in both the Netherlands and Kenya has bounced back after last year. The wedding industry was badly affected by covid. Since the partial return to 'normal' the surge in demand has caused problems within the supply chains and has increased costs for EU exporters to the Uk. Added to that we have the transport problems within the Uk caused by the driver shortage.

Like i said, i hope she manages to sort the problem.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 18 Aug 21 - 03:46 AM

We get it Steve, you’re scared of dogs. Now knock it off - a few of us were having a bit of harmless fun and you just had to come in with your po-faced, kill-joy comment. You’re really beginning to get on my tits, and it’s high time you stopped.

Have a bit of self-respect, grow up, and overcome your childish phobia - people are laughing at you.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 17 Aug 21 - 06:19 PM

On your other point about the export-import problems, RainDog: I don't run a florists myself, but if they are having lose business and the income from it, especially after these last hard years, I am sure they are doing for a solid reason. So when they say they can't import what they need, I believe them, whatever figures aggregated over all businesses may suggest. There will always be sectors that are not well described by such aggregated figures.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 17 Aug 21 - 05:52 PM

It is in the UK. Like many others, it has been re-arranged multiple times - this is the fifth date for her.

This version is for around 30 people - it has been much bigger and much smaller at various iterations. Her cousin gave up and got mattied when only five were allowed - the registrar, the couple the the two witnesses required by law.

we will try to find flowers but if we can't the wedding will just take place without them - I doubt if she could face another reorganisarion unless the law changed again.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Aug 21 - 05:52 PM

Uncalled for, John. And very defensive...


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Rain Dog
Date: 17 Aug 21 - 05:17 PM

DMcG, where is the wedding?

Exports from the UK to the EU have been affected but imports from the EU less so.

Republic and other EU exporters benefit from the UK’s phased 12-month transition

No doubt a lot of tax revenue will also be lost during the transition period.

I hope she manages to get the flowers sorted.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 17 Aug 21 - 04:53 PM

So today my daughter contacted the florist who was supposed to be providing the flowers for her wedding on 25th September. The florist had to tell her there will be no flowers because many of her suppliers have gone bust and those that are left cannot get anything like their normal supply. No doubt covid-19 plays a big part, but the trade organisations of florists were saying their supply was badly disrupted even before the pandemic because of the paperwork issues (you probably remember the seed potaro issue for Scottish potatoes; flowers have similar issues.

I mentioned this on another site where Brexit supporters were denying shortages, and their response was find a different florist and why should flowers from Kenya be affected. Apparently they do not understand that that is asking Kenya to supply everything it did plus a lot more ... But as I had to point out, even if we can, that is more work I have to do because of Brexit. (Our florists said the reason their suppliers went bust was because of supply issues, not staffing issues.)


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 17 Aug 21 - 04:36 PM

GTFU Steve.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Aug 21 - 04:11 PM

Hmmm...


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 17 Aug 21 - 03:34 PM

I rather prefer the thought of The Village People dressed as different breeds of dog. Everyone should be more Dog… ;-)


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 17 Aug 21 - 12:41 PM

It's Britain in the 21st Century.. Nowt wrong with canine diversity...


It's fun to be at the R.S.P.C.A..

Though better to be adopted into a kind forever home...


Mudcatters.. song challenge...???

woof...


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