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BS: Brexit & other UK political topics

Dave the Gnome 06 Oct 21 - 01:25 PM
Backwoodsman 06 Oct 21 - 01:16 PM
Dave the Gnome 06 Oct 21 - 01:01 PM
punkfolkrocker 06 Oct 21 - 12:44 PM
punkfolkrocker 06 Oct 21 - 12:41 PM
punkfolkrocker 06 Oct 21 - 12:37 PM
Dave the Gnome 06 Oct 21 - 12:33 PM
Steve Shaw 06 Oct 21 - 12:22 PM
Steve Shaw 06 Oct 21 - 12:07 PM
punkfolkrocker 06 Oct 21 - 12:03 PM
punkfolkrocker 06 Oct 21 - 11:52 AM
Dave the Gnome 06 Oct 21 - 11:44 AM
punkfolkrocker 06 Oct 21 - 10:01 AM
punkfolkrocker 06 Oct 21 - 09:52 AM
Steve Shaw 06 Oct 21 - 09:48 AM
Steve Shaw 06 Oct 21 - 09:40 AM
Backwoodsman 06 Oct 21 - 07:44 AM
punkfolkrocker 06 Oct 21 - 06:54 AM
Backwoodsman 06 Oct 21 - 05:17 AM
Steve Shaw 06 Oct 21 - 05:09 AM
Backwoodsman 06 Oct 21 - 05:05 AM
Steve Shaw 06 Oct 21 - 04:58 AM
Backwoodsman 06 Oct 21 - 04:53 AM
Steve Shaw 06 Oct 21 - 04:44 AM
Dave the Gnome 06 Oct 21 - 04:11 AM
Backwoodsman 06 Oct 21 - 04:01 AM
Rain Dog 06 Oct 21 - 03:44 AM
Nigel Parsons 05 Oct 21 - 09:31 PM
Steve Shaw 05 Oct 21 - 09:00 PM
Nigel Parsons 05 Oct 21 - 08:52 PM
Steve Shaw 05 Oct 21 - 08:00 PM
Nigel Parsons 05 Oct 21 - 07:49 PM
Steve Shaw 05 Oct 21 - 06:57 PM
Steve Shaw 05 Oct 21 - 06:00 PM
Steve Shaw 05 Oct 21 - 05:46 PM
Steve Shaw 05 Oct 21 - 05:34 PM
DMcG 05 Oct 21 - 05:10 PM
Nigel Parsons 05 Oct 21 - 04:53 PM
Steve Shaw 05 Oct 21 - 04:18 PM
Nigel Parsons 05 Oct 21 - 03:48 PM
Steve Shaw 05 Oct 21 - 03:12 PM
Steve Shaw 05 Oct 21 - 03:08 PM
Nigel Parsons 05 Oct 21 - 03:08 PM
Steve Shaw 05 Oct 21 - 11:54 AM
Rain Dog 05 Oct 21 - 11:41 AM
Backwoodsman 05 Oct 21 - 11:10 AM
Rain Dog 05 Oct 21 - 10:54 AM
Nigel Parsons 05 Oct 21 - 10:14 AM
SPB-Cooperator 05 Oct 21 - 09:42 AM
Steve Shaw 05 Oct 21 - 09:32 AM
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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 06 Oct 21 - 01:25 PM

That hot bed of left wing support, The Spectator, has just published this article on BoJo's Walter Mitty act. If even The Spectator can admit he is the shitiest leader we have ever had, how come the right wingers on here are still supporting him?

There's nowt so queer as folk...


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 06 Oct 21 - 01:16 PM

I had my flu jab at the doctor’s surgery a couple of weeks ago.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 06 Oct 21 - 01:01 PM

Who are easily spotted? Leftist elements or intelligent activist 21st century youths? No good looking on social media as all that provides is proof of how many armchair warriors exist. Real activists get out and do something. Most often anonymously as they don't want to get arrested!


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 06 Oct 21 - 12:44 PM

.. one quick identifier is variants on the slogan "At least they get people talking about it"...


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 06 Oct 21 - 12:41 PM

DtG - have a look round.. they pop up, easily spotted in social media...


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 06 Oct 21 - 12:37 PM

We'll probably pay for flu jabs at the chemists again..
We were texted and notified of free jabs by our GP weeks ago,
but heard nothing else since.

Last winter we weren't offered free flu jabs until the flu season was nearly over.
By then we'd already paid up for injections well before xmas...

Not a word about covid boosters yet ?


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 06 Oct 21 - 12:33 PM

Obviously, you know the kind of intelligent activist 21st century yoofs I'm actually talking about

I don't I'm afraid. Please enlighten me. One of the biggest secondary schools in North Yorkshire is about 500 yards from my front door and most of the pupils seem to be dropped off and picked up by their parents and seem to have an unhealthy pre-occupation with mobile devices. There may be the odd Greta Thunberg but judging by the general behaviour the "active conviction and call for immediate change" takes second place to home comforts. I'm not saying they are bad kids or that they don't care. I'm sure they care about the environment as much as the next person but I think that maybe you are overestimating their commitment rather than anyone underestimating anything. Maybe your wife can confirm that the generation in her care all walk to and from school and do not use mobile devices?

I also still don't know which "elelments of the left" give uncritical support to these "tools"


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Oct 21 - 12:22 PM

We can't get our NHS flu jabs. We had our appointments, which we'd made three weeks ago, cancelled two days ago. We got alternative appointments but they were cancelled this afternoon with the message "try again in early November." What a bloody shambles.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Oct 21 - 12:07 PM

"Like that idea would never have occurred to anyone else..."

This is not about ideas occurring to people (who then sit on their hands). It's about provoking/shaming the powers-that-be to DO something. It's all very well "ideas occurring to us," but "ideas occurring to us" hasn't stopped us from becoming one of the worst-insulated nations in the western world...


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 06 Oct 21 - 12:03 PM

.. and regarding uncritical lefty support for misguided road protesters...

Of course anyone with any sense supports fighting climate change,
but most folks object to the fanatical methods of road protest obsessed attention seeking zealots.
Apart from a vociferous pandering minority of liberals/greens/lefty useful idiots...

Yep.. they're a definite gift for pityless patel and her justifications
for harder harsher laws...


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 06 Oct 21 - 11:52 AM

DtG - I'm not a dad..
So I don't have to put up with those kinds of spoilt little shits..

Like many other frightened young lefties in the early 1980s,
I decided I couldn't bring any kids into the world of thatcher/reagan
and the kremlin,
poised to bring on nuclear apocalyse..

So I ended up marrying an infant school teacher who loves kids,
but has had enough of other people's little brats at wotk..

Obviously, you know the kind of intelligent activist 21st century yoofs I'm actually talking about...


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 06 Oct 21 - 11:44 AM

You seem to underestimate the active conviction and call for immediate change from young folks..

- 50 years younger than us...


You mean the ones that insist that we drop them off at school and take them everywhere in cars? Or the ones who seem incapable of conversation without hand held electronic devices? Or the ones who must have the latest phone while the old one goes into landfill? Let's compare that to when I was in my teens shall we? Walked to school. Went further afield on the bus. Bought stuff in paper bags. Took bottles back to the shop to get the deposit back. Went to the phone box to call people but only if they happened to have a phone. Need I go on? :-D

As to 'elements from the left'. Just who are these elements? Is support for fixing climate change limited to those on the left of the spectrum? I think not.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 06 Oct 21 - 10:01 AM

"Insulate Britain are making a very valid point about the poor state of housing which results in seriously higher emissions. Now that I can support!"

Yeah.. right..

Like that idea would never have occurred to anyone else,
if it wasn't for a bunch of crusading habitual nuisance duffers
disrupting transport systems at a time of national crisis...!!!???

At least they've got us all talking about it.. bollocks...!!!


I'm dismayed at the uncritical support from elelments of the left
for these tools...


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 06 Oct 21 - 09:52 AM

"We've spent the last forty or fifty years "talking about the issues" and DOING next to bugger all about them."

You seem to underestimate the active conviction and call for immediate change from young folks..

- 50 years younger than us...

They are the generation who will inherit the dire consequences of their elders inactivity, or outright denial of impending doom...

They are the effective instruments of real positive change;
who are coming of age and will soon occupy positions of responsibility and power..
Hopefully before it's too late...!!!


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Oct 21 - 09:48 AM

And just a word on this:

"...alienating many people who would otherwise have supported their protest..."

Let's see then.

"Insulate Britain are making a very valid point about the poor state of housing which results in seriously higher emissions. Now that I can support!"

"Hang on. They're sitting on the M25! I would have supported their cause* if only they hadn't done that!"

Really??

*("but done nothing...")


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Oct 21 - 09:40 AM

"They are an annoying distraction from talking about the actual issues..."

Well you certainly hit the nail on the head there. We've spent the last forty or fifty years "talking about the issues" and DOING next to bugger all about them. Carbon dioxide emissions still rising year on year, for example. I think I read somewhere this morning that the UK has the draughtiest, most poorly-insulated houses in Europe... All the talking-about-the-issues is just hot air. Literally. These folks are DOING something. The long history of protests is that if you do them quietly or politely or by signing a petition on Change.org you get ignored.   

So tell me of any cases you know of in which someone has suffered or died in an ambulance at the protests. Do you think that if protesters let ambulances through we would even get to know about it? I have my doubts...


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 06 Oct 21 - 07:44 AM

I’m broadly with you, pfr - I’m all for peaceful protest, but I feel that the Insulate Britain crowd are following a self-defeating policy by going too far and, thus, alienating many people who would otherwise have supported their protest.

Having been rushed by ambulance to hospital with life-threatening conditions a number of times, I know that Mrs Backwoodsperson would have torn a few heads off if my survival had been threatened by by demonstrators delaying the ambulance’s progress to the hospital.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 06 Oct 21 - 06:54 AM

"Is it counter-productive? Well, we’re all talking about it, so on an important metric they are succeeding in what they’ve set out to do."

It is ok for good lefties to call that out as utter bollocks...!!!

What 'we're' talking about is the fanatical numpty useful idiot protesters..

They are an annoying distraction from talking about the actual issues which matter more than just about any others
to the survival of our planet..

Issues which ARE already being widely discussed because of their vital importance to our future..

NOT because of vain protesting fools and their uncritical naive supporters claiming credit
for such timely current crucial discussions...

.. and what a joke if the Home Insulation industry is discovered to be covertly controlling Insulate Britain puppets...???

They got as far as legally tolerable with dodgy call centre tele sales teams
promising free govt money grants for shoddy home insulation products...


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 06 Oct 21 - 05:17 AM

As I’ve now said three times, it was a rhetorical question about the possible intentions of a government with a reputation for behaving dishonestly, not an indication of support, and I don’t care whether they’re introduced or not.

Alles klaar?


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Oct 21 - 05:09 AM

I was responding to your post that used the word "compulsory" twice, and your musing as to whether they'd be fine now. that's all!


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 06 Oct 21 - 05:05 AM

Hence my question. Has it been suggested that, should an ID card system be introduced, carrying it at all times would be compulsory? It may have been, but I don’t recall it if it has..


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Oct 21 - 04:58 AM

But I carry it out of choice, generally dictated by convenience. I don't carry it because I've been ordered to by a government. I will never do that, because, as I said, this country doesn't own me. That was my point. Give me an ID card and tell me that I can carry it if I want to. No problem with that.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 06 Oct 21 - 04:53 AM

So, you already have an ID card Steve. Fair enough. Has anyone suggested that, should an ID card system be introduced, it would be compulsory to carry it at all times? If so, I must have missed it.

And my suggestion that a ‘Voter ID’ document might be a stealth step by a less-than-up-front Tory government towards the introduction of an ID card system was just that - not in any way a recommendation or indication of my belief in such a thing, I thought I’d made it perfectly clear that I don’t care either way.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Oct 21 - 04:44 AM

This country does not own me, and what I carry around, or not, to identify myself should always be fully my decision. I never go anywhere (whether driving or not) without my driving licence. My decision. I need it (or something similar to identify myself), quite rightly, to pick up my wine order at Waitrose click and collect, and I need it this morning to pick up an order at the local Argos. I've been caught speeding several times, and that has taught me that it's always a great idea (though it isn't obligatory) to carry the licence with me as it means I don't have the inconvenience of having to go to a police station to show it later. Those are my choices, and I will not carry ID just because a government tells me to. I haven't got a problem with certain convicted criminals wearing tags, but that's the only acceptable exception as far as I'm concerned.

Nigel, dear fellow, there is no discernible problem with voter fraud that even remotely requires a law obliging us to carry voter ID. That's the argument, if you're making it, that you've lost. So nitpick away, I'm finished with that avenue of enquiry.

On a different tack, here's a comment from a reader under a Guardian opinion piece about the motorway protests. I'm reproducing it because I agree with every word.

One of my closest friends is involved in the Insulate Britain protests. In over 30 years of environmental activism she has sacrificed so much, at considerable personal cost. To hear her dismissed as an “irresponsible crusty” by Johnson brought home to me how little thought he actually puts into what he says. As long as he gets in a cheap ad hominem dig and gets to play to the gallery it’s job done. That’s the extent of his involvement.

As for the benighted Home Secretary. I was listening to her speech today. She shifted seamlessly from the word “protestor” to the word “criminal”, almost as if they were synonyms. She is a menace. She is a threat to all protest …... a threat to decency.

I accept that Extinction Rebellion and Insulate Britain really piss people off. That’s part of the point. Is it counter-productive? Well, we’re all talking about it, so on an important metric they are succeeding in what they’ve set out to do. After decades of activism with little to show, these are the tactics which finally seem to have broken through.

But be under no illusion that this doesn’t come at some personal cost for the protestors. Don’t fall for the bullshit of focusing on who the protestors are. Focus on the issue and its ramifications. Because if you think you’re inconvenienced now, just wait until you see what’s in store if we all continue as we are.

We should be just grateful that there are people willing to put themselves on the line for the sake of the rest of us.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 06 Oct 21 - 04:11 AM


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 06 Oct 21 - 04:01 AM

Possibly a step towards compulsory National Identity Cards?

(For the record, I’m ambivalent about compulsory National ID cards - they seemed to be acceptable during WW2 and in the few years afterwards, maybe they’d be fine now?).


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Rain Dog
Date: 06 Oct 21 - 03:44 AM

Proven cases of electoral fraud are small. There would appear to be little to no evidence that it is a problem in the UK. I would suspect that if it does occur it is more likely to do so in local elections but, like the government, i do not have any evidence to support that suspicion.

Of course it was a Labour government that floated this idea before. Indeed they introduced it in Northern Ireland in 2002. I don't know how people over there have taken to it. I am not aware that it is a major issue.

BUT.

The following text is taken from Channel 4 website.

++

In Northern Ireland, voters who didn’t have the right documents could apply for a free photographic electoral ID card from their local council.

This went some way to answering the objection that people who could not afford the application fee for a driving licence or passport might be priced out of voting.

When the government first announced this bill in the Queen’s Speech in 2019, it explicitly said it would follow the Northern Ireland model, saying: “Any voter who does not have an approved form of ID will be able to apply, free of charge, for a local electoral identity document.”

This assurance is missing from the notes that accompany the 2021 Queen’s Speech, and we haven’t been able to pin the government down on whether they still plan to offer free ID cards to people who don’t have them.

On the question of funding, a government spokesman simply told us: “We will set out detail in due course.”

++

The devil is in the detail. If people have to pay for voter id, it will hit the poorest hardest. They are probably more likely to vote labour rather than tory.

If the government try to push this through before the next general election, i think that even the less cynical among us will suspect their motives for doing so.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 05 Oct 21 - 09:31 PM

Stop squirming and admit that your original claim was wrong.
To 'a scientist' the difference between 'none' and 'some' should be significant.
The fact that there are some proven cases, even if only a few, does not preclude the possibility of other cases not brought to light. But it does preclude the possibility that there's no electoral fraud in this country.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Oct 21 - 09:00 PM

Single numbers per annum out of an electorate of forty-odd million. Congratulations, Nigel, on your greatest nitpick ever! Excellent, even for you!


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 05 Oct 21 - 08:52 PM

Well, Nigel, in each of the last four or five years, proven cases of electoral fraud have been in single figures every year (very checkable).

The very fact that you accept that there are proven cases is also acceptance that your earlier claim: there's no electoral fraud in this country was untrue. And according to you it was "very checkable". Obviously, as on previous occasions, you committed yourself to print without checking your facts in the belief that a strongly asserted statement would be accepted as 'fact'.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Oct 21 - 08:00 PM

Well, Nigel, in each of the last four or five years, proven cases of electoral fraud have been in single figures every year (very checkable). There are forty-odd million voters in this country. Please tell me, in all seriousness, that you support a measure "to combat electoral fraud" that would, in fact, make it difficult for many thousands of the poorest voters, who couldn't access decent ID, to vote at all. Come along now, Nigel...


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 05 Oct 21 - 07:49 PM

Oh yes, I nearly forgot. The bill that would require voters to produce ID (and who knows what that would mean...) before they'd be handed their ballot papers is still on the cards. As there's no electoral fraud in this country (which this measure is purportedly there to "eliminate"),

Again, a sweeping generalisation from Steve Shaw.
While there may not be a major problem with electoral fraud in UK, to say that there is none is not only unproveable but the statement can easily be shown to be false: The Electoral Commission


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Oct 21 - 06:57 PM

Oh yes, I nearly forgot. The bill that would require voters to produce ID (and who knows what that would mean...) before they'd be handed their ballot papers is still on the cards. As there's no electoral fraud in this country (which this measure is purportedly there to "eliminate"), you could conclude that this is a sledgehammer to crack a nut. But you'd be wrong. It's a measure that would make it much more difficult for the poor and the deprived to vote at all. Well, if they could vote they wouldn't be voting Tory, would they...


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Oct 21 - 06:00 PM

DMcG, you've neatly summarised why I would never join the National Trust. And the NT profiteers by grossly overcharging non-members for using its car parks round here. Last year, we could use the Leadmines car park at Pentireglaze for free, and the nearby Pentireglaze car park for a quid or two in the honesty box. To do the circular walk you need to park for around 2 1/2 to 3 hours. This year, that suddenly costs four quid in each car park. Both car parks have uneven, stony, weedy and often muddy surfaces. The National Trust can go hang as far as I'm concerned.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Oct 21 - 05:46 PM

Oh, and by the way, Johnson wants to appoint the bullying, foul-mouthed, alt-right off-shorer ex-editor of the Daily Mail, Paul Dacre, as the head of Ofcom, this country's media regulator. Wow...


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Oct 21 - 05:34 PM

Well I'm not quite sure which bit of what you've said I haven't addressed. Hey ho.

Johnson doesn't want to make misogyny a hate crime. After all that's happened recently. At the same time, Patel wants to make peaceful environmental protests an imprisonable offence. The Tories want to limit the potential for judicial review to investigate government. The Electoral Commission is also in their sights. Well I think we could be heading towards fascism. I don't think that's putting it too strongly.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 05 Oct 21 - 05:10 PM

On another topic, of less significance but important enough in its way. The National Trust AGM elects six places to its council at the end of this month. There is a group "Restore Trust" which is against all wokeness, pointing out links to slavery and suchlike on its properties. At least some of them are strongly opposed to LGBT+ issues, though the link to National Trust properties seems a bit tenuous. Anyway, these are the list of candidates they recommend you vote for:

Michael Goodhart
Stephen Green
Min Grimshaw
David Pearson
Andrew Powles
Guy Trehane

Alternatively, if you are like me, this is a handy list to ensure you do not vote for them by accident.

Steven Green's pitch for the role is especially enlightening:

am a long-standing member of the
National Trust and I seek election to the
Council to call the Trust back to its
founding principles, to treat its members,
donors, volunteers and tenants with
respect and to end its promotion of
fashionable ‘woke’ causes. Even as I was
filling in the Council election forms,
the Trust asked not just my sex but my
‘gender identity’ and my sexual orientation!
I believe the National Trust elite is obsessed
with LGBT issues. I believe a former
National Trust curator claimed historical
information about Trust properties
‘privileges heterosexual lives’ by ‘offering
information about marriages, inheritance
and the role of the family’. The Trust should
instead ‘provide more information on
same-sex desire and LGBTQ+ lives from
the past’.
The 2017 Felbrigg Hall affair, in which the
Trust claimed the donor, the late Robert
Ketton-Cremer, was homosexual, on no
evidence, shows where this madness leads.
I shall ensure that future donors feel safe
from the Trust poring over their past and
inventing salacious details of an imagined
private life.
I shall also want to know how much
members’ money has been spent in recent
years by the National Trust participating
in gay pride parades such as it did in
Birmingham in 2019. I shall stop divisive
marketing exercises and woke virtuesignalling.
I also seek your vote to end what I believe
to be the anti-democratic, corrupt system
whereby the Trust elite ‘recommends’
certain Council election candidates to
ensure nobody is elected who will ever
actually call them to account.
So if I am elected to the National Trust
Council it will be nothing less than
a miracle!


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 05 Oct 21 - 04:53 PM

So you have family here,(or) you expect a better life andor you can speak English. I could also add that you may well be very willing to work. But, despite all that, you're only allowed in if you're fleeing danger or death (the converse tbc, of course). Not let me think of a few groups of people who get in freely yet can't match those criteria...

No, I didn't say that.
I was responding to Backwoodsman's comment (endorsed by you) that these people were fleeing the danger of violence or death.

Set up as many straw men as you wish. My original comment has been avoided by you.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Oct 21 - 04:18 PM

So you have family here, you expect a better life and you can speak English. I could also add that you may well be very willing to work. But, despite all that, you're only allowed in if you're fleeing danger or death (the converse tbc, of course). Not let me think of a few groups of people who get in freely yet can't match those criteria...

Judge not, eh?


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 05 Oct 21 - 03:48 PM

And why would that be, Nigel? Because they have a few grand per person spare to just idly pay traffickers with dangerous dinghies? Feel like delving a little deeper?

No need to dig deeper, although several possible reasons suggest themselves:
Relatives already in UK
Expectation of better treatment here than in France
Already understand and speak English

None of that however goes against my point that in crossing from France to England they are not "fleeing the danger of violence or death".


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Oct 21 - 03:12 PM

And why would that be, Nigel? Because they have a few grand per person spare to just idly pay traffickers with dangerous dinghies? Feel like delving a little deeper?


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Oct 21 - 03:08 PM

By Woody:

Some of us are illegal, and some are not wanted,
Our work contract's out and we have to move on;
Six hundred miles to that Mexican border,
They chase us like outlaws, like rustlers, like thieves.

Goodbye to my Juan, goodbye, Rosalita,
Adios mis amigos, Jesus y Maria;
You won't have your names when you ride the big airplane,
All they will call you will be "deportees"


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 05 Oct 21 - 03:08 PM

"I detest the term ‘illegal immigrants’. It’s a meaningless dog-whistle term used by racists and Right-Wing media quite deliberately, with the intention to turn public opinion against a group of largely desperate and endangered people fleeing the danger of violence or death."

People putting their lives at risk by making dangerous crossings of the English Channel do not appear to be 'fleeing the danger of violence or death'. They are trying to move from one 'safe' country, France, to another, England.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Oct 21 - 11:54 AM

"I detest the term ‘illegal immigrants’. It’s a meaningless dog-whistle term used by racists and Right-Wing media quite deliberately, with the intention to turn public opinion against a group of largely desperate and endangered people fleeing the danger of violence or death."

I couldn't agree more with this. I've taken issue with yanks on the use of the word "illegals" as a noun. Calling a human being "illegal" is as dehumanising and, in this context as racist (as we use the term for "foreigners" only) as calling them any of those other names that we like to type as mostly asterisks.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Rain Dog
Date: 05 Oct 21 - 11:41 AM

Just been listening to the following programme on BBC Radio 4, which will be available on playback.

100 years of Exile

Who is a refugee?

100 Years of Exile

Episode 1 of 3

It is 100 years since a civil war caused a refugee crisis on Europe's borders and the appointment of the first High Commissioner for refugees. Today, as a series of refugee crises roils European politics, Katy Long presents a series examining what the century in between has taught us all about how to deal with a refugee crisis.

Across three episodes, Katy will examine how refugee crises start, what it is like to be a refugee, how the business of supporting refugees has changed (and grown), and how refugee crises end. She speaks to refugees and former refugees, to those who work with them and to the politicians who decide what will become of them.

In this first episode, about how refugee crises start, Katy will examine how the definition of a refugee has changed. Covering Russia, Rwanda and Syria, she'll consider how international agreements, legal texts and political pressures have shaped public and political understanding of who refugees are, and what they are owed.

Producer: Giles Edwards
Assistant Producer: George Dabby.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 05 Oct 21 - 11:10 AM

“Talk, talk, talk yet people continue to arrive by illegal means”

The means by which a migrant arrives is not subject to judgment over legality. It is not ‘illegal’ to arrive by small boat any more than arriving on a ferry or in an aircraft. The issue of ‘legality’ revolves around the person’s right to come here, and on them having declared their arrival to the UK Immigration authorities, not the means by which they arrive.

I detest the term ‘illegal immigrants’. It’s a meaningless dog-whistle term used by racists and Right-Wing media quite deliberately, with the intention to turn public opinion against a group of largely desperate and endangered people fleeing the danger of violence or death.

I would propose ‘Irregular migration’ as a more accurate, considerably less inflammatory, term.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Rain Dog
Date: 05 Oct 21 - 10:54 AM

I think that is highly unlikely that any vessels will be pushed back. It is just talk, down to the frustration of finding that there is no easy solution to the 'problem'.

Talk, talk, talk yet people continue to arrive by illegal means. Neither the French or Uk authorities have the means to patrol the coastline in order to catch the vessels as they set off. However, you might think that they have the means to target the gangs who are providing this service. Does anyone think that drug smugglers could act so freely?


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 05 Oct 21 - 10:14 AM

If border force employees obey orders push back asylum seekers they would be committing an offense under international law,

Not being an expert in international maritime law, may I ask what law would be being broken?
Also, does the same law prevent the French from pushing the boats 'forward'?


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 05 Oct 21 - 09:42 AM

If border force employees obey orders push back asylum seekers they would be committing an offense under international law, and would need to be brought to justice. Carrying out their job in accordance with government instructions is no defense and must never be.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Oct 21 - 09:32 AM

sets


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