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BS: Brexit & other UK political topics

Dave the Gnome 22 Aug 20 - 02:10 AM
The Sandman 22 Aug 20 - 03:14 AM
Dave the Gnome 22 Aug 20 - 03:32 AM
Mr Red 22 Aug 20 - 03:36 AM
Nigel Parsons 22 Aug 20 - 05:30 AM
Nigel Parsons 22 Aug 20 - 05:43 AM
DMcG 22 Aug 20 - 06:06 AM
Dave the Gnome 22 Aug 20 - 06:43 AM
Nigel Parsons 22 Aug 20 - 10:11 AM
Mr Red 22 Aug 20 - 10:27 AM
Dave the Gnome 22 Aug 20 - 01:28 PM
DMcG 22 Aug 20 - 02:07 PM
Nigel Parsons 22 Aug 20 - 02:51 PM
Nigel Parsons 22 Aug 20 - 02:56 PM
SPB-Cooperator 22 Aug 20 - 04:47 PM
Nigel Parsons 22 Aug 20 - 05:01 PM
SPB-Cooperator 22 Aug 20 - 06:54 PM
The Sandman 23 Aug 20 - 03:16 AM
DMcG 23 Aug 20 - 03:23 AM
Mr Red 23 Aug 20 - 04:57 AM
Dave the Gnome 23 Aug 20 - 05:57 AM
Backwoodsman 23 Aug 20 - 06:40 AM
DMcG 23 Aug 20 - 07:05 AM
DMcG 23 Aug 20 - 10:44 AM
Jos 23 Aug 20 - 04:18 PM
Dave the Gnome 24 Aug 20 - 02:54 AM
DMcG 24 Aug 20 - 03:17 AM
DMcG 24 Aug 20 - 06:39 AM
Nigel Parsons 24 Aug 20 - 07:09 AM
Nigel Parsons 24 Aug 20 - 07:15 AM
DMcG 24 Aug 20 - 07:48 AM
Nigel Parsons 24 Aug 20 - 09:48 AM
DMcG 24 Aug 20 - 10:02 AM
Rain Dog 24 Aug 20 - 11:07 AM
DMcG 24 Aug 20 - 11:29 AM
Nigel Parsons 25 Aug 20 - 05:52 AM
DMcG 25 Aug 20 - 06:07 AM
Nigel Parsons 25 Aug 20 - 06:15 AM
Dave the Gnome 25 Aug 20 - 09:01 AM
Backwoodsman 25 Aug 20 - 04:53 PM
DMcG 25 Aug 20 - 06:11 PM
Dave the Gnome 26 Aug 20 - 02:34 AM
Dave the Gnome 26 Aug 20 - 03:46 AM
DMcG 26 Aug 20 - 03:58 AM
Backwoodsman 26 Aug 20 - 04:33 AM
Nigel Parsons 26 Aug 20 - 04:45 AM
Nigel Parsons 26 Aug 20 - 04:53 AM
Dave the Gnome 26 Aug 20 - 05:51 AM
DMcG 26 Aug 20 - 03:10 PM
DMcG 26 Aug 20 - 03:42 PM
Nigel Parsons 26 Aug 20 - 04:33 PM
Dave the Gnome 27 Aug 20 - 02:24 AM
The Sandman 27 Aug 20 - 03:01 AM
DMcG 27 Aug 20 - 03:19 AM
Dave the Gnome 27 Aug 20 - 03:28 AM
The Sandman 27 Aug 20 - 12:33 PM
DMcG 29 Aug 20 - 07:01 AM
Stilly River Sage 29 Aug 20 - 09:17 AM
Nigel Parsons 29 Aug 20 - 02:04 PM
DMcG 29 Aug 20 - 02:49 PM
SPB-Cooperator 01 Sep 20 - 06:43 AM
Donuel 01 Sep 20 - 06:53 AM
DMcG 01 Sep 20 - 09:18 AM
Backwoodsman 01 Sep 20 - 09:25 AM
Mr Red 02 Sep 20 - 02:54 AM
DMcG 02 Sep 20 - 03:52 AM
The Sandman 02 Sep 20 - 12:49 PM
Raggytash 02 Sep 20 - 12:52 PM
The Sandman 03 Sep 20 - 02:04 AM
Mr Red 03 Sep 20 - 07:28 AM
The Sandman 03 Sep 20 - 01:23 PM
SPB-Cooperator 09 Sep 20 - 02:56 PM
Joe Offer 09 Sep 20 - 03:23 PM
DMcG 10 Sep 20 - 01:57 AM
Backwoodsman 10 Sep 20 - 02:07 AM
peteglasgow 10 Sep 20 - 04:09 AM
Mr Red 12 Sep 20 - 03:14 AM
McGrath of Harlow 13 Sep 20 - 08:05 PM
Nigel Parsons 14 Sep 20 - 05:09 AM
DMcG 14 Sep 20 - 07:38 AM
McGrath of Harlow 14 Sep 20 - 09:35 AM
peteglasgow 15 Sep 20 - 09:04 AM
Dave the Gnome 16 Sep 20 - 03:44 AM
DMcG 16 Sep 20 - 04:25 AM
Mr Red 16 Sep 20 - 07:09 AM
Bonzo3legs 29 Sep 20 - 03:23 PM
punkfolkrocker 29 Sep 20 - 03:36 PM
Bonzo3legs 29 Sep 20 - 03:50 PM
punkfolkrocker 29 Sep 20 - 03:57 PM
Steve Shaw 29 Sep 20 - 08:22 PM
Nick 30 Sep 20 - 03:27 AM
Stilly River Sage 30 Sep 20 - 02:22 PM
Dave the Gnome 30 Sep 20 - 05:42 PM
Stilly River Sage 30 Sep 20 - 05:46 PM
punkfolkrocker 30 Sep 20 - 06:08 PM
DMcG 30 Sep 20 - 06:41 PM
Doug Chadwick 30 Sep 20 - 06:55 PM
Steve Shaw 30 Sep 20 - 06:58 PM
punkfolkrocker 30 Sep 20 - 06:59 PM
Steve Shaw 30 Sep 20 - 07:55 PM
punkfolkrocker 30 Sep 20 - 08:10 PM
Steve Shaw 30 Sep 20 - 08:15 PM
The Sandman 01 Oct 20 - 11:33 AM
DMcG 01 Oct 20 - 05:09 PM
Dave the Gnome 01 Oct 20 - 05:24 PM
Backwoodsman 01 Oct 20 - 05:25 PM
punkfolkrocker 01 Oct 20 - 05:54 PM
Dave the Gnome 02 Oct 20 - 03:15 AM
Backwoodsman 02 Oct 20 - 03:30 AM
Dave the Gnome 03 Oct 20 - 04:50 AM
Dave the Gnome 05 Oct 20 - 04:50 AM
Backwoodsman 08 Oct 20 - 03:16 AM
Bonzo3legs 10 Oct 20 - 11:14 AM
Backwoodsman 10 Oct 20 - 12:17 PM
Doug Chadwick 12 Oct 20 - 04:05 AM
Backwoodsman 12 Oct 20 - 05:36 AM
DMcG 12 Oct 20 - 05:42 AM
Backwoodsman 12 Oct 20 - 07:10 AM
The Sandman 12 Oct 20 - 10:08 AM
Dave the Gnome 12 Oct 20 - 12:22 PM
Steve Shaw 12 Oct 20 - 02:04 PM
Backwoodsman 12 Oct 20 - 02:16 PM
Nigel Parsons 12 Oct 20 - 02:43 PM
DMcG 12 Oct 20 - 03:22 PM
Steve Shaw 12 Oct 20 - 03:23 PM
mayomick 13 Oct 20 - 10:00 AM
mayomick 13 Oct 20 - 10:12 AM
Bonzo3legs 13 Oct 20 - 06:35 PM
Steve Shaw 13 Oct 20 - 08:06 PM
DMcG 16 Oct 20 - 01:38 PM
Nigel Parsons 16 Oct 20 - 03:33 PM
DMcG 16 Oct 20 - 04:42 PM
DMcG 16 Oct 20 - 04:43 PM
The Sandman 16 Oct 20 - 05:10 PM
SPB-Cooperator 17 Oct 20 - 04:43 AM
The Sandman 17 Oct 20 - 05:26 AM
The Sandman 17 Oct 20 - 05:28 AM
Backwoodsman 17 Oct 20 - 05:54 AM
Backwoodsman 17 Oct 20 - 06:20 AM
Raggytash 17 Oct 20 - 06:23 AM
Backwoodsman 17 Oct 20 - 06:28 AM
Dave the Gnome 17 Oct 20 - 07:31 AM
Nigel Parsons 17 Oct 20 - 12:53 PM
Dave the Gnome 18 Oct 20 - 03:08 AM
DMcG 18 Oct 20 - 03:30 AM
Backwoodsman 18 Oct 20 - 04:20 AM
DMcG 18 Oct 20 - 05:17 AM
Backwoodsman 18 Oct 20 - 05:28 AM
DMcG 18 Oct 20 - 05:33 AM
Bonzo3legs 18 Oct 20 - 06:25 AM
Bonzo3legs 18 Oct 20 - 06:25 AM
Bonzo3legs 18 Oct 20 - 06:29 AM
Raggytash 18 Oct 20 - 06:39 AM
Dave the Gnome 18 Oct 20 - 11:32 AM
Bonzo3legs 18 Oct 20 - 12:16 PM
Backwoodsman 18 Oct 20 - 12:23 PM
Bonzo3legs 18 Oct 20 - 12:42 PM
SPB-Cooperator 18 Oct 20 - 01:42 PM
The Sandman 18 Oct 20 - 02:03 PM
Dave the Gnome 18 Oct 20 - 04:30 PM
The Sandman 18 Oct 20 - 04:42 PM
Dave the Gnome 18 Oct 20 - 04:50 PM
Raggytash 18 Oct 20 - 06:00 PM
DMcG 19 Oct 20 - 03:52 AM
Backwoodsman 19 Oct 20 - 04:28 AM
Dave the Gnome 19 Oct 20 - 04:47 AM
SPB-Cooperator 19 Oct 20 - 06:58 AM
Dave the Gnome 19 Oct 20 - 07:24 AM
Dave the Gnome 19 Oct 20 - 07:25 AM
Stilly River Sage 19 Oct 20 - 10:32 AM
Dave the Gnome 19 Oct 20 - 10:34 AM
Dave the Gnome 19 Oct 20 - 11:00 AM
DMcG 19 Oct 20 - 11:20 AM
The Sandman 19 Oct 20 - 04:09 PM
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Subject: BS: Brexit
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 22 Aug 20 - 02:10 AM

As there has been none of the regular infighting, circular arguments or abuse on the UK Labour party thread for weeks now and I have had no objection from the moderation team about starting new political threads I think it is safe to assume the issues have been resolved.

I have copied DMcG's post to kick this one off. Hope that's OK, Dave.

Subject: RE: BS: Important issues re UK Labour Party
From: DMcG - PM
Date: 20 Aug 20 - 01:08 PM

Nothing to do with Labour again: another Brexit consequence.

"EU negotiators have rejected a British request for a migration pact that would allow the government to return asylum seekers to other European countries.

When the Brexit transition period expires on 31 December, the government will lose the right to transfer refugees and migrants to the EU country in which they arrived, a cornerstone of the European asylum system known as the Dublin regulation."

Bit of a shame for those concerned about "all these illegal immigrants", I suspect.


I agree. Brexit is nearly on us and while it is just one of the many failings of the Tory government, it does deserve a thread of its own. I may start another on the other disasters.

Nope. This one can run because it has been quieter lately, but several others intended to cause chaos are being thinned out. Mudcat is a music site and the amount of political fighting in the BS threads from the general direction of the UK and environs is too disruptive to much of the membership who come here for music. ---mudelf


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit
From: The Sandman
Date: 22 Aug 20 - 03:14 AM

why?other disasters, covid 19?
Iwas cycling along yesterday, and stopped to say hello to a walker who used to play trad music, he got on the subject of covid as soon as he could, quote
the trouble began when they restricted congregations of churches t less than 50, it is the house of god, god is all powerful, you are safe inthe house of god unless you are an atheist or communist.
the alternative round here is to talk to sheep, the conversation is equally perplexing


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 22 Aug 20 - 03:32 AM

I think there is already a thread on the virus, Dick. It is a worldwide issue after all.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit
From: Mr Red
Date: 22 Aug 20 - 03:36 AM

Goggle Ads posted "the 10 best Casinos on line" at the top of this thread. Goggle knows everything about us, so what are they telling us this time?

I posit they are whispering Brinkmanship - the kind that doesn't have a contingency plan in case of rare but inevitable far reaching serious interventions.

And that intervention happened like shit does, when you leave things to the last minute.

Did they "beware what you wish for"? we have less than 6 months to find out what they** wished for. The bet is we will get just that. Then we will habituate to the new normal, and we will blame Brexshit and they will blame COVID and everyone will think they are correct.

**we should be obvious but who are they ? Fakebook & St Petersberg come into that equation IMNSHO.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 22 Aug 20 - 05:30 AM

Mr Red:
You're probably right about 'brinkmanship', but you wording suggest that you seem to think it is only being practised by the UK side of the negotiations.

Dave the Gnome:
Interesting to see that the original quote (whatever its unstated origin) mentions refugees and migrants . It seems someone at least accepts that not all those arriving are actually 'refugees'.

Maybe this time around we will see a discussion based more on facts than on suppositions. We can but hope.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 22 Aug 20 - 05:43 AM

As a partial answer to the usual question of why families are risking crossing the English Channel, this quote:

Though it is hard to grasp at first sight why any family would sleep in a wood rather than apply for asylum in France, the families and the charities who support them say the official accommodation centres are dirty, frightening and inappropriate for vulnerable families.
Armed police try to get families on to buses, tearing up tents. After a certain number of days families must apply to stay in France, and many do not want to do that.
One father told Fallowfield: “If the French would give us even basic support, I would go to the accommodation centre for my children’s sake. But they treat us like animals.”
Like other families here, he sees trying to reach the UK as his only option. “I have destroyed my life for my children to have a better future. I don’t want my kids to grow up where someone can brainwash them and make them kill for a living. Islamic State came to our country and that’s why I have come to this shit place. It’s the hardest job in the world being a parent.”

From The Guardian

So maybe they are still refugees, fleeing an oppressive regime. Do we really want to remain part of a Union with such a regime?


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit
From: DMcG
Date: 22 Aug 20 - 06:06 AM

Firstly, of course I have no objection to copying my post as an introduction to this thread.

I find it a bit of a stretch to imagine many people voting to leave because they were dismayed of what was happening to refugees and migrants in France and thought we should be treating them here and better. So that seems to be rather beside the original issue, which was the loss of the right to send such people who get to the UK back to the EU countries. Even last night on Newsnight one of the Conservative MPs for an area in Kent - I forget which - was stressing the importance of the Dublin Agreement.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 22 Aug 20 - 06:43 AM

I am happy to have facts quoted and sources credited, Nigel. Let us hope semantics do not enter into the argument when meanings are obvious either. I'm not sure how your quote from the Guardian answers anything though. After the end of this year we will have no right to send anyone entering this country illegally back to their country of EU entry. I think DMcG's point about this ruling being against what some leavers voted for is still valid.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 22 Aug 20 - 10:11 AM

So,if we can no longer return failed asylum seekers to France from 1 January, we will need to repatriate them to their homes, which is also an option. BBC: Failed asylum seekers
While this is more difficult than just returning them to France, it does stop them immediately re-joining the camps at Calais and trying again.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit
From: Mr Red
Date: 22 Aug 20 - 10:27 AM

but you wording suggest that you seem to think it is only being practised by the UK side of the negotiations.

Where in the UK might St Petersberg be?

they was deliberately vague but there is no doubt it refers to the politically oriented even if there is no nationality stated or (& I can be the authority on that point) ............ implied.
It has been inferred though. And other than my words, I am not in control of that.

There is no doubt that Europe has something to lose by not securing a deal. But the UK has more to lose. So playing my "life ain't binary" card, I am of the opinion that the brinkmanship is more irresponsible when the loss is the greater.

Change costs money, and this change will cost, and payback is ill-defined. Making deals at the last minute means dependent systems/infrastructure will be formulated in a hurry, and mistakes will be made. Which is why change costs more money. Which is why the UK has more to lose.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 22 Aug 20 - 01:28 PM

Absolutely, Mr Red. I have nothing against change. Some of my best results in life have come though drastic change. But change for changes sake or, even worse, change when you have no idea what you are changing to is a nightmare.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit
From: DMcG
Date: 22 Aug 20 - 02:07 PM

we can repatriate failed asylum seekers. Which means after their case has been reviewed. This is unlike the Dublin Agreement under which we could send them to France immediately, I believe. We cannot return a successful asylum seeker who is recognised as a refugee, but again a number would have been returned to France and the decision taken there, leaving France to host the refugee.

So while we can indeed send failed asylum seekers home, the number remaining in the UK is likely to be higher if we do not get agreement in place. Which is of course why the UK government sought to have something similar to the Dublin Agreement accepted by the EU.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 22 Aug 20 - 02:51 PM

Which is of course why the UK government sought to have something similar to the Dublin Agreement accepted by the EU.
And which is why, while negotiations are ongoing, we do not know what will be needed.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 22 Aug 20 - 02:56 PM

Mr Red:
Where in the UK might St Petersberg be?

they was deliberately vague but there is no doubt it refers to the politically oriented even if there is no nationality stated or (& I can be the authority on that point) ............ implied.
It has been inferred though. And other than my words, I am not in control of that.


At the time you mentioned 'brinkmanship' St Petersburg (sp) hadn't been mentioned. Only those involved in the negotiations, UK & EU, can employ brinkmanship. St Petersburg is a non sequitur


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 22 Aug 20 - 04:47 PM

"So maybe they are still refugees, fleeing an oppressive regime. Do we really want to remain part of a Union with such a regime?"

I need to learn bow to do the italics.....

SO maybe if the racist little ****s in the UK were to make a serious and equal commitment to helping with refugee resettlement, countries that are doing far more than us like France and Germany would be under far less economic pressure.

also it is well documented that English is more widley spoken around the tight fisted to pay for French/German/Greek etc tuition for every person who may need to seek asylum in the future?


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 22 Aug 20 - 05:01 PM

also it is well documented that English is more widley spoken around the tight fisted to pay for French/German/Greek etc tuition for every person who may need to seek asylum in the future?
Any chance we can have that comment in English?


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 22 Aug 20 - 06:54 PM

also it is well documented that English is more widely spoken around (the world than other European languages. I hope you are not too) tight fisted to pay for French/German/Greek etc tuition for every person who may need to seek asylum in the future?


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit
From: The Sandman
Date: 23 Aug 20 - 03:16 AM

Why? round and round in circles yet another discussion that gets nowhere, entrenched opinions, what a waste of time, bring back Jim, his style of insult was not as imaginative as MGM, but it provided a relief from the ennui of the fellow with his fishing rod .


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit
From: DMcG
Date: 23 Aug 20 - 03:23 AM

It seems to me, Nigel, that you are trying too hard to dismiss this issue. There is only one reason why the UK tried to negotiate such a deal and that is that they see it as better than any of the alternatives. And that applies while the negotiations are ongoing.

You have been prepared in the past to accept their may be short term damage to the UK because of Brexit but that in the long term that is an acceptable cost to get the benefits*. I don't see why you can't say the same here: it is less than we wanted but in the long term we can absorb any disadvantages. Instead you seem to be suggesting it is not significant.

* With no estimate of the likelihood of that 'may' or hint of what 'short term' might be in practice.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit
From: Mr Red
Date: 23 Aug 20 - 04:57 AM

At the time you mentioned 'brinkmanship' St Petersburg (sp) hadn't been mentioned

We can all nitpick when we favour parts not the whole. Which, let's face it, is why we have Brexshit.

And external parties pushing propaganda via social media.
Who has the most to gain from a divided Europe?
Who has the effrontery to poison people in other countries?
Manipulating Fakebook barely registers on the poison scale.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 23 Aug 20 - 05:57 AM

St Petersburg is a non sequitur

Have you not seen the report on Russian involvement in British politics, including the Brexit debacle, Nigel? Your illustrious leader hushed it up before the election but it is out now.

Dick, up to now no one is insulting anyone. Apart from you. It is not necessary, it is counter productive and it gets threads closed. We can now, hopefully, have a serious discussion where people disagree but respect each other's views and have threads without the rancour that has plagued earlier attempts.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 23 Aug 20 - 06:40 AM

Good post, Dave.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit
From: DMcG
Date: 23 Aug 20 - 07:05 AM

I agree. I will not push the Dublin Agreement issues furthwr unless something changes. Those who wish have set out their views and that ahiykd be enough.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit
From: DMcG
Date: 23 Aug 20 - 10:44 AM

Wow, what was that word supposed to be? 'should', believe it or not.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit
From: Jos
Date: 23 Aug 20 - 04:18 PM

I'm getting the hang of these typos now - just look at the letters to the right or left on the keyboard. It gets confusing though when the 'words' include some correct letters. You just need to guess which ones.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 24 Aug 20 - 02:54 AM

I spotted it, Dave :-)


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit
From: DMcG
Date: 24 Aug 20 - 03:17 AM

I'd being staying at a Premier Inn after visiting my children. My wife called out out that we need to leave for breakfast now to get to them, so "I'll just finish this post before we dash off"...


I do make far fewer typos when I use my laptop, but the phone is a bit of a disaster for them, I am afraid. And I rarely think my posts have enough merit to justify the sort of attention a thesis, job or application or report would get.


Meanwhile, back to Brexit. This comment from the EU that the negotiations are going backwards seems to have stirred some Brexiteers I read elsewhere into action.   They interpret it as saying what the EU wanted is not being achieved but the UK is holding firm and the EU is gradually realising it. Seems unlikely to me: the 'going backwards' phrase to me would be saying that things that had been agreed were not longer being agreed to. To what extent that is talking about things in the WA that the UK is trying to get out of, as opposed to things agreed in principle at the start of this batch of negotiations but no longer accepted is hard to tell. Certainly, there is plenty of the former.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit
From: DMcG
Date: 24 Aug 20 - 06:39 AM

Interesting remark in "The New European" from Alistair Campbell - I know, ad hominem away! - but I think it it true. It has been a long time since I heard this myself:


As for Brexit, even its high priests have given up singing its praises. I cannot for the life of me remember the last time I heard anyone saying how great it was going to be for the country. It has taken on the feel of a trip to the dentist, or filling in your tax form.

Just got to be done.


Your experiences may differ, of course.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 24 Aug 20 - 07:09 AM

DMcG:
It seems to me, Nigel, that you are trying too hard to dismiss this issue. There is only one reason why the UK tried to negotiate such a deal and that is that they see it as better than any of the alternatives. And that applies while the negotiations are ongoing.
I am not dismissing the issue. But it is not as yet something which is 'set in stone'. Despite the initial post with an uncredited quote:
EU negotiators have rejected a British request for a migration pact that would allow the government to return asylum seekers to other European countries.
When the Brexit transition period expires on 31 December, the government will lose the right to transfer refugees and migrants to the EU country in which they arrived, a cornerstone of the European asylum system known as the Dublin regulation."


"The EU negotiators have dismissed". Yes, they've also dismissed the UK keeping its own (internationally agreed) fishing rights, and the UK have dismissed EU claims to UK fishing rights. This is all still under negotiation. To choose one particular 'dismissal' by EU as final is a poor starting point for any discussion.

And yes, I still accept that there will be costs to the UK of leaving the EU, but there would also be costs in remaining. I still believe the vote on leaving had the correct result.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 24 Aug 20 - 07:15 AM

Dave the Gnome
Have you not seen the report on Russian involvement in British politics, including the Brexit debacle, Nigel? Your illustrious leader hushed it up before the election but it is out now.

Yes, I saw reports on "Russian involvement in British politics". I did not see that it included (even in the Guardian) involvement in Brexit. In fact there were complaints that involvement in Brexit was excluded from the remit of the reports.
Perhaps you saw different reports.

Guardian:Russian intervention didn't sway the Brexit referendum – our rightwing press did


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit
From: DMcG
Date: 24 Aug 20 - 07:48 AM

And yes, I still accept that there will be costs to the UK

Last time we discussed this, Nigel, you objected to a use of 'will' and insisted on a 'may'. Has that changed?


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 24 Aug 20 - 09:48 AM

It may be that I was responding to something more specific.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit
From: DMcG
Date: 24 Aug 20 - 10:02 AM

I could dig out the exact quotation, which was much longer ago than I thought (Jan 19!) but I am more interested whether you now think, whoever is responsible, that costs to the UK are (almost) inevitable. The Jan 19 post said you thought they may arise but would be worth it to achieve Brexit.

Also in the news: The EU and US have signed a trade deal (without needing to accept thes2 pesky chlorinated chickens!)


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit
From: Rain Dog
Date: 24 Aug 20 - 11:07 AM

Well I would think that most people would agree that there will be extra cost involved in the immediate future. Of course we will have to wait and see if the cost of leaving works out cheaper down the line.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit
From: DMcG
Date: 24 Aug 20 - 11:29 AM

Yes, Rain Dog, they do now. That doesn't mean they did before.

Of course, as soon as you admit costs, it is reasonable to expect some sort of cost benefit analysis, preferably with more depth than 'perhaps it will work out in the end.'


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 25 Aug 20 - 05:52 AM

DMcG
I could dig out the exact quotation, which was much longer ago than I thought (Jan 19!) but I am more interested whether you now think, whoever is responsible, that costs to the UK are (almost) inevitable. The Jan 19 post said you thought they may arise but would be worth it to achieve Brexit.
I hate to suggest that you haven't actually quoted me because I didn't insist, as claimed: that costs only 'may' occur. If I've found the same quote as you (27 Jan 2019) it says: "And I don't think I said "There will be some short term hardship". I think I accepted that there 'may' be, but that it was worth it to get out."   The 'possibility' of 'hardships' is different to the 'need' for 'costs'.

Also in the news: The EU and US have signed a trade deal (without needing to accept thes2 pesky chlorinated chickens!)
So much for the numerous arguments, made many times on these threads (by remainers) that such a deal would never be accepted by the US.

My full quote, in context, is here: Here


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit
From: DMcG
Date: 25 Aug 20 - 06:07 AM

We are trying to avoid arguments on this generation of the many threads, so I will simply say that if a cost is not a hardship, you are in a very fortunate position.

Let's move on!


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 25 Aug 20 - 06:15 AM

A cost is certainly not the same thing as a hardship, and to try to conflate the two in order to get away with a misquote is misleading. Everyone has 'costs' every day, that does not mean that they are suffering from 'hardships'.
However, as you say, Let's move on.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 25 Aug 20 - 09:01 AM

From: Dave the Gnome - PM
Date: 22 Aug 20 - 06:43 AM

I am happy to have facts quoted and sources credited, Nigel. Let us hope semantics do not enter into the argument when meanings are obvious either.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 25 Aug 20 - 04:53 PM

A very interesting piece by Brendan Donnelly Here. I wonder how the Leave-Brigade will dress up the impending shit-show to make it appear as a resounding success?


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit
From: DMcG
Date: 25 Aug 20 - 06:11 PM

For those who have not heard about it, worst case planning document was leaked to The Sun. Although other news sources have reported on this, it seems appropriate to link to The Sun's article.

Yes, it is a worst case planning document. But some.of the key risks- no trade deal and a second wave, for example - are not unlikely.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 26 Aug 20 - 02:34 AM

I wonder why these worse cases were not explained in 2016.

Well, not really.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 26 Aug 20 - 03:46 AM

Nigel. Going back to a point you made earlier. The report on Russian intervention did not include the Brexit referendum because it was told not to investigate that. So it doesn't mention Russian involvement in that not because there was none but because the government was embarrassed by it.

Howver, something else about the headline you reerence, "Russian intervention didn't sway the Brexit referendum – our rightwing press did", has been bothering me.

Are you really saying that the right wing press swaying the referendum is any better than the Russians doing it? The right wing press who are owned, in the main, by a dysfunctional Australian billionaire, a tax-exile Lord and a Russian family with close links to the KGB. These people have their own agenda and you can be sure that the welfare of the British people is not on it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit
From: DMcG
Date: 26 Aug 20 - 03:58 AM

I think many of them were, but were dismissed as 'Project Fear'. The main difference this time is that it is the current government considering them, which is of course very much a "Leave" government.

How likely they are will vary. A shortage of some foodstuffs in December seems very likely to me, as we all remember the Great Pasta Shortage at the start of the virus outbreak. I can see that being repeated with a much wider set of foods fairly easily. Power cuts seem less likely to me.

===

I have been thinking a little about the fabled cliff edge, which has not been mentioned for some time. As with so much to do with Brexit, it is remarkably ill defined, so let me tell you how I think of it.

Let's start with the concept of a 'transition'. In the ideal world, we start with a known situation (for example set of rules and regulations) and a destination (with its spelled out set of rules and regulations.) During the transition, firms have, say, two years to implement the IT systems, carry out staff training and whatever so that at the end of the transition period they are ready to go under the new system.   The less time they have to do this - one year rather than two, say - the more difficult it is.   We are currently in the position that with four months to go, very little is known about the final state. Consequently, it is extremely difficult for anyone to have the appropriate IT, training and other preparation.

It turns out that whatever we have called it, we have not had a 'transition period', as few if any firms has had a chance to transition. We have simply had an extended negotiation period and called it a 'transition period'.

This to me is 'the cliff edge': it is not primarily economic. It is the need for firms to adapt to a substantially different way of working with little or no notice. An announcement on 31 December of the new rules that people have to follow from 1st Jan, or even with three months holiday from one side but not the other or whatever, is a cliff edge.

Trying to cope with such changes will almost certainly have significant economic effects, but they are consequences of the regulatory cliff edge.

Given we are still trying to negotiate a trade agreement, the regularity cliff edge is looking inevitable to me. Others may, of course, disagree.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 26 Aug 20 - 04:33 AM

”Given we are still trying to negotiate a trade agreement, the regularity cliff edge is looking inevitable to me. Others may, of course, disagree.”

And, without doubt, they will disagree - having voted for Christmas, the turkeys are very unlikely to want to face the fact that, in the near future, their silly, easily-led heads will be separated from their Union-Flag-bedecked bodies (metaphorically speaking, of course!).


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 26 Aug 20 - 04:45 AM

From DMcG:
For those who have not heard about it, worst case planning document was leaked to The Sun. Although other news sources have reported on this, it seems appropriate to link to The Sun's article.
Yes, it is a worst case planning document. But some of the key risks- no trade deal and a second wave, for example - are not unlikely.


Immediately followed by Dave the Gnome:
I wonder why these worse cases were not explained in 2016.

Possibly because they weren't understood at the time, particularly the risk of a second wave of Coronavirus when we hadn't had a first wave. To what extent may that second wave exacerbate any possible problems at borders, how could that have been foretold?


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 26 Aug 20 - 04:53 AM

Dave the Gnome:
Nigel. Going back to a point you made earlier. The report on Russian intervention did not include the Brexit referendum because it was told not to investigate that. So it doesn't mention Russian involvement in that not because there was none but because the government was embarrassed by it.
My post was a direct response to your claim that the report had detailed involement in Brexit.
"Have you not seen the report on Russian involvement in British politics, including the Brexit debacle, Nigel? Your illustrious leader hushed it up before the election but it is out now".
Which you now appear to accept that it didn't.

However, something else about the headline you reference, "Russian intervention didn't sway the Brexit referendum – our rightwing press did", has been bothering me.

Are you really saying that the right wing press swaying the referendum is any better than the Russians doing it?

No, I am not making that claim, I was just emphasising that the left wing press had already accepted that the report did not include Brexit.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 26 Aug 20 - 05:51 AM

Nigel, accepted that the report did not include Brexit does not mean that there was no Russian involvement. The government hushed it up so, going back to my original point, it does seem that there was Russian involvement in the Brexit debacle. Your attempt at derailing the issue is blatant and will not work.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit
From: DMcG
Date: 26 Aug 20 - 03:10 PM

I agree the risks due to the near simultaneous end of transition and the virus could not have been foretold specifically in 2016. There was, of course, a more generalised concern about a pandemic, but obviously at a much lower probability.

On the other hand the presentation is dated June and it was the 13th of July that Gove formally announced the transition would end in January 2021. So this government consciously accepted all the risks that have been outlined. A risk is not a certainty, of course, but the increased risk is a deliberate choice.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit
From: DMcG
Date: 26 Aug 20 - 03:42 PM

Scrap that, sorry. The document is labelled July, not June. So we cannot be certain whether the government saw the document and then announced the end of transition, or the other way around.   If it is the other way round, though, it would seem rather lackadaisical to make an announcement and then only get a presentation on the consequences sometime over the next two weeks.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 26 Aug 20 - 04:33 PM

Nigel, accepted that the report did not include Brexit does not mean that there was no Russian involvement. The government hushed it up so, going back to my original point, it does seem that there was Russian involvement in the Brexit debacle. Your attempt at derailing the issue is blatant and will not work.

I'm not trying to derail the discussion, your original claim was that Russian involvement in Brexit was in the report. Which you now seem to accept it was not.

Accepting that the statement was in error is a much better way of getting the discussion to move on than trying to justify your original claim.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 27 Aug 20 - 02:24 AM

Everyone but you understood my point, Nigel. The Russian involvement in British politics was the point behind the real original post mentioning St Petersberg. Nitpicking at its very best. Well done, Nigel, you win. I shall not take the thread any further off track.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit
From: The Sandman
Date: 27 Aug 20 - 03:01 AM

I reckon johnson is preparing to use ill health as an excuse to run away from responsiblities regarding Brexit in JAN FEB 2021.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit
From: DMcG
Date: 27 Aug 20 - 03:19 AM

You may well be right, Sandman, through it is also possible the party 'persuades' Johnson to quit. The more I think abut it, though, the more complications I see and so I am very loathe to make any predictions on the matter.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 27 Aug 20 - 03:28 AM

The whole brexit debacle has been a fiasco from the start and I cannot see it being any different at the end. Not that it will end in December. The effects will be with us forever. The one lesson that we can come away with is that this is what you get by pandering to right wing xenophobes. I only hope that future governments will take heed.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit
From: The Sandman
Date: 27 Aug 20 - 12:33 PM

imo johnson is a political opportunist who plays the populist card. Mussolini did this and ended upside down hanging ignominously with his mistress.
for our USA friends. Mussolini [IL DUCE] was an italian fascist Right wing xenophobe


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit
From: DMcG
Date: 29 Aug 20 - 07:01 AM

I talked above about a 'cliff edge' being less about a direct economic one but much more a consequence of a regulatory cliff edge where what needs to be done is not known until just before it needs to be implemented.

That the government apparently released changed guidance for schools on Friday which is the last normal working day before they need to be in place this coming week is exactly the sort of 'cliff edge' impact I mean: it is impossible to act on anything in this guidance that differs from what went before - as it presumably does or there would be no point in issuing it.

I think that is a good indicator that is what we might look forward to at the end of December.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 29 Aug 20 - 09:17 AM

The old history stuff is completely understood, Dick. No need to patronize. It's the modern stuff that is an incomprehensible tangle. But then, who are we to criticize until we get the current occupant out of the White House? We see your clown and raise you a sociopath.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 29 Aug 20 - 02:04 PM

That the government apparently released changed guidance for schools on Friday which is the last normal working day before they need to be in place this coming week is exactly the sort of 'cliff edge' impact I mean: it is impossible to act on anything in this guidance that differs from what went before - as it presumably does or there would be no point in issuing it.

And some people claim that the government's instructions are indecipherable.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit
From: DMcG
Date: 29 Aug 20 - 02:49 PM

If anyone else agrees it is indecipherable I will happily rewrite it. I accept the sentence is quite long and elaborate, but it is hardly of the complexity of Ulysses.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 01 Sep 20 - 06:43 AM

The government's instruction do not provide clear instruction on how to gauatnatee freedom of movement, which only pathetic racists and wannabe neo-****s are against.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit
From: Donuel
Date: 01 Sep 20 - 06:53 AM

cliff edge? More like freefall.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit
From: DMcG
Date: 01 Sep 20 - 09:18 AM

Brexit: Boris Johnson signals no-deal increasingly likely and hits out at EU for refusing to compromise

So much for an 'over ready deal'. Or was the deal just assuming the EU would give up and let the UK have whatever it wanted?


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 01 Sep 20 - 09:25 AM

If Johnson was a character in Game of Thrones, his name would be ‘Boris the Blame-Shifter’. It’s the only thing he and Rasputin Cummings are any good at. And lying, of course.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit
From: Mr Red
Date: 02 Sep 20 - 02:54 AM

and that ahiykd be enough

ahiykd we call that a micro-coffefe ?

and

I am getting a de ja vu moment or is it an analogue? When the resurrectors** of Adderbury Morris spoke to the old boys who had been Morris dancers before WW1, they found that the reason the Morris faded was that their agenda had changed. There were more important things to address. So the relatively slow progress of this thread looks to show how much COVID has trumped the debate.

**as reported in "They Way of the Morris"


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit
From: DMcG
Date: 02 Sep 20 - 03:52 AM

Yes and no, Mr Red. One important difference is that it is very likely that we will find a vaccine for covid in a year or two at most, if it is possible at all. After that point, it will be of much lower concern, though there will be more awareness of the risks of similar diseases, with a bit of luck.

The consequences of the trade agreements we reach will have effects lasting decades. The Brexit supporting Professor Minford said this included major reductions, or even elimination, of the UK industrial and farming sectors, for example.

So it is completely understandable that the majority of most people's attention is on covid. Mine is as well. But that does not make the trade deals we come up with unimportant.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit
From: The Sandman
Date: 02 Sep 20 - 12:49 PM

Brexit, is appearing to be a big mistake.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit
From: Raggytash
Date: 02 Sep 20 - 12:52 PM

some of us realised that four years ago.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit
From: The Sandman
Date: 03 Sep 20 - 02:04 AM

yes,raggytash you were not the only one 49 per cent thought so, but with the addition of covid it appears to be an even bigger mistake


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit
From: Mr Red
Date: 03 Sep 20 - 07:28 AM

Yes and no, Mr Red.

But after a year's testing and trickle feeding out the vaccine to the most deserving in society, assuming the world can produce enough effective vaccine in a year. Do you have any idea of the logistics involved? Do we have enough chickens to make all the eggs? And if we do, less eggs for eating & up goes the price of eggs on the retail market.

Brexshit will be a reality and the price of eggs (et al) will be rising as a result. And which will be the more scary?
1) The UK out on a limb with few deals in place and new systems in place like customs deflating the excitement of foreign travel.
2) Or Travel abroad pretty scary on its own, with uncertainty if getting home un-plannable ahead and how much quarantine necessary on return. Not to mention the long term affects of surviving the virus!

My point was: Brexshit will be a lesser concern by comparison, and it can be endured, and enduring it will be. History tells us. If we listen.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit
From: The Sandman
Date: 03 Sep 20 - 01:23 PM

IF IRELAND gains unification an extra cost would be placed on europe and a financial burden would betaken off the uk economy, maybe the uk should rejoin europe?


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Subject: BS: Breaking International Law
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 09 Sep 20 - 02:56 PM

I am reluctant to begin a new thread on UK politics, but I cannot find another thread to post this to. If their is an active thread, maybe the mods can move this post.

In the UK, the Northern Island Secretary stated that it is fine for the government to go against international law and pass legislation that goes against an internationally agreed treaty and therefore international law for the sake of domestic expediency.

What is telling is the following question and answer at the beginning of Prime Minister's question time. (source Hansard)

Munira Wilson
If Ministers think it is acceptable for this Government to not obey the law, how on earth can the Prime Minister expect the public at home to do so?

The Prime Minister
We expect everybody in this country to obey the law.

The hypocrisy of the reply says everything.


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Subject: RE: BS: Breaking International Law
From: Joe Offer
Date: 09 Sep 20 - 03:23 PM

It does seem that hypocrisy is the Rule of Law these days, doesn't it? I heard a radio program the other day about a wonderful new museum that opened recently near Gdansk. It was intended to tell the story of the history of Poland during World War II. The current government completely repurposed the museum, so that nothing negative is said about the conduct of Poland or the Polish people during the war.

It seems that too many countries have been following this path recently. Honesty is no longer important.

Trump has just cancelled all racial healing classes that were being taught for government employees, saying that is "unAmerican" to teach that there is racism in our country.

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 10 Sep 20 - 01:57 AM

The latest wheeze of Johnson to try to unilaterally alter an international agreement - i.e. break the international law - is being criticised is the House of Representatives, where several representatives are making clear they have no intention of agreeing a US-UK Trade deal if there is any threat to the Good Friday Agreement.

Heaven knows the USA has bigger issues to deal with at the moment that they need to focus on, but that's the thing about international law: it has international effects.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 10 Sep 20 - 02:07 AM

What’s puzzling me is, whatever happened to the ‘Oven-Ready Deal’ that, during the GE Campaign, Johnson claimed he had negotiated, and which was ready to go?

Could it possibly have been a lie, perhaps dreamed up by Rasputin Cummings for Johnson to spout, in order to confuse feeble-minded people into voting for him?


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: peteglasgow
Date: 10 Sep 20 - 04:09 AM

i never realised what differences there were between theresa windrush may's deal and boris f***in lying idiot johnson's deal. except that the latter had the approval of a rabid group of fascists on the tory benches. but apparently with johnson's version he has the right to just dump parts of it he doesn't like and ignore or insult our allies.

those who voted for this crew have no excuses - just saying you were inspired to leave the EU because of your racist feelings is far more creditable than saying it is because you believe that boris arrogant idiot johnson is capable of being a good prime minister and leading a competent government


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Mr Red
Date: 12 Sep 20 - 03:14 AM

History will judge Theresa May, and 'King Boris. And Mrs May will be looked on far more kindly by comparison. Yes she was ineffectual, but not because of her intellect, but because she was pushing a leviathan uphill that she didn't believe in for the sake of her tribe's unity.
Whereas Boris Turncoat Johnson just wanted to be Prime Minister.

Compare those if you will with someone who didn't even want to be leader of his party. (Was he actually ever?)

Popular vote eh? What's that worth to a pandemic ravaged principality?

And FWIW even the most optimistic pundits now forecast the financial nuclear winter I have been predicting. It ain't rocket science, change costs money, and there are now two major changes surrounding the UK. All it takes is an inevitable cold winter that must descend one day, and the mild weather we have become habituated to will throw us.
And the cry will be "The government should............."

Tell you what - my supply of non-perishables is constantly topped-up now. Against more severe lockdown &/or snow or even a personal COVID. Siege mentality maybe, but at least it is while panic-buying has faded from public consciousness.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 13 Sep 20 - 08:05 PM

Pretty clearly the UK government made the agreement in bad faith. The fallback position that it follows if there was no agreed free trade agreement was clearly understood by everyone. It was vociferously emphasised by the DUP in the Commons as the reason they had broken their alliance with the Tories, along with others.

There is no possibility that the government was no fully aware of the implications ofwhat they were signing.

But why should anyone be surprised at an English government acting in bad faith when it sees that as convenient? There's an expression "Albion perfide" which was first used as far back as the 13th century?


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 14 Sep 20 - 05:09 AM

Pretty clearly the UK government made the agreement in bad faith. The fallback position that it follows if there was no agreed free trade agreement was clearly understood by everyone.

"Under duress" rather than "In bad faith". Despite Article 50 clearly stating that "Nothing can be agreed until everything is agreed" (wording not checked, but the meaning is there). EU negotiators refused to even start discussing trade terms without an agreed payout, and other restrictions. That is what became the "Withdrawal agreement". Now that the EU (or at least Mr. Michel Barnier) are refusing to discuss trade unless we first give way on fisheries and government aid, we can see the same happening again. Article 50 (part of an international agreement) is clearly being ignored by the EU. Fortunately Boris Johnson is willing to fight fire with fire.

From the above it should be clear that I don't believe that the EU can claim the moral high ground when it comes to keeping aligned with international treaties.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 14 Sep 20 - 07:38 AM

I love this 'nothing agreed until everything is agreed' line. Some people are interpreting 'everything' to mean absolutely everything, including perhaps whether God exists.

That sentence has a scope: "everything" refers the negotiation of the Withdrawal agreement and an agreed text of the Political Declaration. Which have been agreed.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 14 Sep 20 - 09:35 AM

The EU did indeed insist on necessary guarantees before it was willing to enter into negotiations, true enough. So if the UK was unwilling to give those guarantees the right thing would have been to accept that, and leave without a trade deal.

The problem with that would have been that, while that was fine with the clique in charge under Johnson, they could never have sold it. It would not have been acceptable to Parliament, and in fact would not have lost an awful lot of votes in the subsequent election, and they¡d never have got that stonking majority of yesmen and women.

Signing the agreement with no intention of keeping it was primarily a way of conning the British people rather than the EU. Now it looks very much as if the Johnson Mob has succeeded in enginering the no deal exit that was intended all along.

Very clever bit of management, a classic con-trick. What Baldrick would have called "a cunning plan". And we know how well those always worked out in the end...


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: peteglasgow
Date: 15 Sep 20 - 09:04 AM

after the disgraceful decision (presumably born of jealousy) that the bbc were to stop broadcasting nicola sturgeon's daily information to scots about her government's covid strategy,we now hear that bbc 'stars' are to be stopped commenting on political matters. this is just suppression of free speech, decency and competent government . what has england become? and some people like this stuff? if you enable fascism - what are you?


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Sep 20 - 03:44 AM

Suppression of free speech
Curfews
Rat on your neighbours

It all sounds frighteningly familiar...


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 16 Sep 20 - 04:25 AM

There are other things I would add to that as well, Dave. For example movement of powers from Parliament to ministers is a very disturbing trend. In several bills recently, including the Internal Market, Parliament has voted not to have the authority to review minister's decisions. Obviously in the Internal market that has not yet completed, but those clauses are there.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Mr Red
Date: 16 Sep 20 - 07:09 AM

We see your clown and raise you a sociopath.

SRS - would you have accepted the third Bush? Instead of the one in your hand.


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Subject: BS: Lawrence Fox - a man to watch!!
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 29 Sep 20 - 03:23 PM

At last someone prepared to speak out against the wimpie wokies!!!!!!!!!


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Subject: RE: BS: Lawrence Fox - a man to watch!!
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 29 Sep 20 - 03:36 PM

Oh that has-been actor, and now malleable ventriloquist's dummy for the radical right...


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Subject: RE: BS: Lawrence Fox - a man to watch!!
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 29 Sep 20 - 03:50 PM

That's the one!!


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Subject: RE: BS: Lawrence Fox - a man to watch!!
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 29 Sep 20 - 03:57 PM

What we wanna know is who is funding his newly born political aspirations,
and how many £££$$$$ they are happy to flush down the bog...???


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Subject: RE: BS: Lawrence Fox - a man to watch!!
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Sep 20 - 08:22 PM

He's about as charmless and despicable as Tim "Wetherspoon" Martin, which is saying something.


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Subject: RE: BS: Lawrence Fox - a man to watch!!
From: Nick
Date: 30 Sep 20 - 03:27 AM

Lawrence Fox is a man NOT to watch. And as he has becomes more and more unemployable in what he was slightly good at ie acting he will undoubtedly end up disappearing. Hopefully.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 30 Sep 20 - 02:22 PM

The proliferation of UK political topics is a problem. Argue about all of it in one place, please.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 30 Sep 20 - 05:42 PM

For all the fishermen who fell for the lie about protecting them.

Britain offers EU fishing concession as part of Brexit sweetener


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 30 Sep 20 - 05:46 PM

We haven't seen much about Brexit with the COVID-19 stuff going on. Where do things stand now?


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 30 Sep 20 - 06:08 PM

Too many of us are resigned to either being in an induced coma in intensive care, or prematurely deceased,
before any progress is made on brexit...


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 30 Sep 20 - 06:41 PM

To answer Silly's question about Brexit. We are in a very critical time as far as negotiations are concerned. There will probably be a lot of noise over the next two weeks. The EU gave until today for some clauses to be dropped from UK legislation and they have not. There is an EU meeting on 15th/16th October which Johnson has said is a deadline. The EU has said the end of October is its deadline. Meanwhile the EU has rejected a UK request for special treatment for cars assembled from Japanese parts (etc) to be treated as if those parts originated in the UK; the UK has offered a phased deal for fishing and the Government has warned of up to 7000 vehicle/2 day delays as a "reasonable worst case" lasting for months from 1 January.

Any or all of this could change in the next four weeks.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 30 Sep 20 - 06:55 PM

We haven't seen much about Brexit with the COVID-19 stuff going on.

The only good thing about COVID-19 is that it stops us having to talk about Brexit. If only we could find something, other than Brexit, to stop us having to talk about COVID-19.

DC


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Sep 20 - 06:58 PM

Not good, though, Doug. Coronavirus has indeed sidelined brexit. Which is exactly how this crappy government hopes to bury bad news...


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 30 Sep 20 - 06:59 PM

Doug - We could numb the anguish
by restricting ourselves to only discussing American politics...???????


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Sep 20 - 07:55 PM

There'd be more intellectual clout in discussing the latest developments in what my grandson's Year One class were getting up to. Yesterday he won the class prize for being the best tidier-upperer. Last week he was one of only five in his class to reach rainbow status. Dammit, I bathe shamelessly in reflected glory, in the knowledge that he's achieved far more worthwhile things than either yank candidate could achieve in a hundred years...


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 30 Sep 20 - 08:10 PM

Today my mrs got the most disruptive 5 year old in her class
to go an entire day without telling any teaching staff
to f@ck off...

That's the kind of extreme woke thing those traitorous marxist feminist teachers
are doing to brainwash white working class boys
into turning into transgenders...!!!

[yes.. maybe.. I've been researching too many far right youtube channels again...???]


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Sep 20 - 08:15 PM

Brilliant, pfr. I salute ye (and the missus) Sir!


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 01 Oct 20 - 11:33 AM

i have never heard of lawrence fox,i have heard of other actors, but
i am not interested in their views on anything other than acting.
for example john cleese a well known actor probably has different views to lawrence fox, so what, why should i listen to fox rather than cleese, just because an accpuntant from croydon tells me too.
who exactly do you think you are, telling people we should listen to some actor called fox,rather than listening to john cleese or glenda jackson, or any other actor


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 01 Oct 20 - 05:09 PM

It is a matter of personal taste, but compared to Tennant, Sim, Scott and others, I don't rate Lawrence Fox much as an actor. Nor compared to some others in the very extensive Fox acting clan.

I would seek him out for potitical advice, either.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 01 Oct 20 - 05:24 PM

I much prefer Emilia


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 01 Oct 20 - 05:25 PM

Not my cup o’tea either, Mac. But hey, it takes all sorts I guess!


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 01 Oct 20 - 05:54 PM

The neo fascists must obviously now regard posh luvvie fox
as a more publicly acceptable mainstream recruitment poster boy
than football hooligan robinson ever could be...

Though they are still keeping bitter old shite comedian jim davidson
as a back up...


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 02 Oct 20 - 03:15 AM

Davidson once slept on my mother-in-law's sofa.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 02 Oct 20 - 03:30 AM

Shame she didn’t smother the bugger with a pillow.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 03 Oct 20 - 04:50 AM

On reflection it might have been Freddie Star. But I don't think he ate any hamsters.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 05 Oct 20 - 04:50 AM

From yesterday's "Observer". I have not linked the piece as it only says the same thing in different ways but I found this section hilarious.

In the latest ConservativeHome survey of what activists think of the cabinet, the prime minister comes in 24th out of 25. The education secretary is the only cabinet member with a worse approval rating. That’s the verdict of Tory members on their own prime minister: “not quite as useless as Gavin Williamson”.

:D


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 08 Oct 20 - 03:16 AM

The usual witty and insightful review, by John Crace in the Guardian, of the Prime Minister’s woeful performance presenting his speech to the virtual Tory Party Conference.

Let’s hope Crace is right, that the former Labour voters who allowed themselves to be conned into voting Tory at the 2019 election have indeed ‘grown up’ and realised what a bunch of twonks they elected, and that they give Johnson a good kick up his fat, bone-idle, clueless arse next time (assuming he lasts that long, and his own party haven’t given him the push before then).


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Subject: BS: Birthday Honours
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 10 Oct 20 - 11:14 AM

Wonderful honours list which includes 414 names of NHS and social care staff, fundraisers, shopworkers and drivers, etc. - the unsung heroes of the pandemic.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 10 Oct 20 - 12:17 PM

It would be even more wonderful if they paid them properly. Gongs don’t pay the bills.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 12 Oct 20 - 04:05 AM

With 1.4 million employed by the NHS and 1.6 million in social care, 414 baubles means that 99.99% were ignored.

DC


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 12 Oct 20 - 05:36 AM

Spot on Doug.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 12 Oct 20 - 05:42 AM

Today's main Brexit event is the Agriculture Bill returning to Parliament.

The story so far:

In December 2019, all Conservative ministers stood on a manifesto that included maintain the UK food standards (p 57 for those interested.)

When the bill first came to the House, it included nothing to protect the standards. Amendments to introduce those commitments were proposed, but voted against.

The bill passed to the Lords, who wrote such protective measures into the bill.

It has now returned to the House of Commons to be voted on this afternoon. The Government has declared one of the amendments inapplicable of a technicality and it was reported in either the Times or the Telegraph (I forget which), that Dominic Cummings "instructed ministers" not to accept the amendments.

The last poll of the public suggested 94% want the standards preserved. I know polls are very unreliable, but it is fair to conclude, I think, that the majority want the standards maintained. The RSPCA do. The NFU do. The environmental groups do. Consumer bodies like "Which?" do. Some supermarkets have said they will not stock chlorinated chicken.

But it is almost certain the MPs will vote against amendments to protect the standards.

Such is taking back control.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 12 Oct 20 - 07:10 AM

”But it is almost certain the MPs will vote against amendments to protect the standards.

Such is taking back control.”


Those of us with more than half a brain knew exactly what the BrexShit-Bunch’s ‘Take Back Control’ meant.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 12 Oct 20 - 10:08 AM

what a mess


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 12 Oct 20 - 12:22 PM

Of as someone cleverly said the other day, an Eton mess is supposed to be meringue, cream and strawberries. Not what the government do :-D


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Oct 20 - 02:04 PM

Seems that the areas most likely to vote Tory next time have been left in the lowermost tier.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 12 Oct 20 - 02:16 PM

Gawrsh , who’da thunk it?


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 12 Oct 20 - 02:43 PM

I thought the lowermost tier was for those areas showing the lowest rate of virus infection. The areas where, whether by luck or good judgement, people have avoided spreading the virus.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 12 Oct 20 - 03:22 PM

Something like that, Nigel. But if it was exactly like there there would be a little table somewhere saying when the cases per thousand was such and such then you would be at level N. Since there isn't - so far - then there is some margin of judgement, and that could be partly political.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Oct 20 - 03:23 PM

The virus is far more prevalent in large conurbations and deprived areas, Nigel. 'Tis true that some constituencies in those areas were stupid enough (or at least contained a lot of stupid enough people) to return a Tory. Once their pubs have been shut (for beer at least) for a few months, their jobs have disappeared and a few more thousand of them have died, the time may well become ripe for the feckless Johnson to look to his laurels...

Unless, of course, the almost equally feckless "Dishy Rishi" has taken over...


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: mayomick
Date: 13 Oct 20 - 10:00 AM

"meringue, cream and strawberries" ? It’s more likely to be a choice between jam roly poly and custard and apple pie and custard .That’s from what I saw when doing some plumbing in a Whitehall club a long time ago ........... Maybe they were from Harrow though.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: mayomick
Date: 13 Oct 20 - 10:12 AM

sorry for the thread creep, carry on.


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Subject: BS: Greatest UK PM born 95 years ago!!
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 13 Oct 20 - 06:35 PM

On this day, 95 years ago, was born one of the finest Prime Ministers ever to lead this or any country - a woman of courage, integrity and wisdom who inspired people around the world and who advanced the cause of freedom: Margaret Thatcher. God bless her!


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Subject: RE: BS: Greatest UK PM born 95 years ago!!
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Oct 20 - 08:06 PM

My father-in-law, a mighty Somerset man and a far better person than Thatcher, would also have been 95 today. He died ten years ago. I loved him to bits. He would probably have been ashamed had he known about the coincidence.

Funny how it goes. Mrs Steve's lifelong best friend has her birthday today (we had her round for tea and a chocolate brownie this afternoon, and she's coming round for my lamb stew on Saturday night), as does my first fiancée (she had a lucky escape), as does one of my best mates from school in the sixties. Nothing on the 12th, 14th or any other day anywhere near. Weird!


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 16 Oct 20 - 01:38 PM

Yet again, it seems Boris Johnson is saying yes, we really really will walk away from the trade deal talks, we mean it and this time are so so serious.

But not actually quite doing it.

Looks like it will be no deal at the end of October on the EU timetable at this rate. Unless the PM actually concedes enough to satisfy the EU, with probably them giving him a fig leaf to exalt over.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 16 Oct 20 - 03:33 PM

Others might say that the EU, having failed to make the UK cave in to their demands, is extending their previous 'definite deadline'.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 16 Oct 20 - 04:42 PM

People can say that if they like. But on 2nd September Barnier said the end of October is the deadline, and on the 7th Johnson said it was the 14th.

Whether Barnier said it earlier I haven't checked, but that 2nd September speech is available online.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 16 Oct 20 - 04:43 PM

15th. Sorry, the inevitable typo.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 16 Oct 20 - 05:10 PM

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit
From: Dave the Gnome - PM
Date: 22 Aug 20 - 03:32 AM

I think there is already a thread on the virus, Dick. It is a worldwide issue after all. quote
Brexit is a world wide issue too, it aff4cts the usa china ne zealand australia furthermore the whole world
Subject: BS: Greatest UK PM born 95 years ago!!
From: Bonzo3legs - PM
Date: 13 Oct 20 - 06:35 PM

On this day, 95 years ago, was born one of the finest Prime Ministers ever to lead this or any country - a woman of courage, integrity and wisdom who inspired people around the world and who advanced the cause of freedom: Margaret Thatcher. God bless hr quote.
a matter of opinion, not a fact, other than it was her birthday


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 17 Oct 20 - 04:43 AM

EU are not making demands, the British lowlife are. All EU are doing is stating what the conditions are for a trade deal outside of the single market. If UK wants to trade with EU the accept EU conditions.

The trouble with people who support leave is that they are so arrogant that they would try to join a folk club and demand the right to change the club rules to their own benefit.

Losing our rights as EU citizens is another matter, and the EU withdrawing our freedom of Movement and benefits of the single market as individuals' is nothing but vindictiveness.


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Subject: BS: Boris for the high jump
From: The Sandman
Date: 17 Oct 20 - 05:26 AM

new allegations about Boris and pole vaulter from Peckham.


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Subject: RE: BS: Boris for the high jump
From: The Sandman
Date: 17 Oct 20 - 05:28 AM

The Sunday Times reports she went for the job at Tech City in 2012, weeks after Mr Johnson started bidding for City Hall to take control of the same quango.

The allegations adds to mounting questions Mr Johnson faces over his links with the businesswoman - due to appear on Good Morning Britain tomorrow.

He has already been accused of granting public funding to Ms Arcuri, whose flat he's said to have visited "several times".

She reportedly received £10,000 in business cash from an organisation Mr Johnson was responsible for as London Mayor in 2013.

And Ms Arcuri, who was in her 20s at the time, was also allegedly given special treatment to attend jet-set trade missions led by the future PM, according to a Sunday Times investigation.

Mr Johnson has now been referred to the Independent Office for Police Conduct (IOPC), and must provide details of their relationship by Tuesday to a summons from the London Assembly.

If he fails to do so he could face a penalty.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 17 Oct 20 - 05:54 AM

Eck, if you’re quoting, why not italicise the piece you’re quoting and put it in inverted commas? Then your posts might make a bit more sense.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 17 Oct 20 - 06:20 AM

That was for The Sandman...


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Raggytash
Date: 17 Oct 20 - 06:23 AM

Conversely Backwoodsman it might be his own opinion and he is just echoing Bonzo!


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 17 Oct 20 - 06:28 AM

Never thought of that, Raggy! Hmmmmm..... ;-)


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 17 Oct 20 - 07:31 AM

Boris want to change the conditions of trading with the EU. It's the EU's fault that talks have stalled.

Boris wants to put Greater Manchester in tier 3. Andy Burnham says that to do that they need more funding. It's Andy Burnham's fault if the contagion increases.

Anyone seeing a pattern here? Not only is Johnson a pathological liar but he also doesn't understand that negotiations are a two way thing. I suppose he was brought up to believe that if you shout, stamp your feet, throw the toys out of the pram and blame everyone but yourself, you get your own way.

I pity his children. However many there are.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 17 Oct 20 - 12:53 PM

Any discussion of UK future trading with EU has no correlation with what's happening within the UK. Any attempt to compare the two is a non sequitur.
Similarly, any discussion about Boris Johnson's children (legitimate or otherwise) has F*** A** (very little) to do with the political discussion.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 Oct 20 - 03:08 AM

Of course it does, Nigel. People expect their politicians to be open, ethical and honest. Boris proves himself to be none of these things every time he opens his mouth. Not being able to say how many children he has sired is a prime example. Blaming the other party when negotiations go wrong is another and, in this case, worse still because it affects the lives of millions.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 18 Oct 20 - 03:30 AM

I am not sure we now or ever actually expected politicians to be open, ethical and honest, Dave. What we certainly did expect was that they should be held to account when they were not. The whole rationale for Freedom of Information Acts wherever they exist is to expose the occasions politicians ae not, and to hold them to account when that happens. Ditto the various ways powers are separated.

What we have discovered over the the past few years - and the 2016 referendum is as good a starting point as any - is how weak the UK system is on holding politicians to account. When individuals and governments can be found to be in contempt of Parliament and they basically shrug and say 'So what?' the accountability is failing. T When the question of whether supreme court judges in the UK should be subject to political veto is seriously considered, the separation of powers is failing. When Parliament itself votes to have no say in ministers decisions on trade (for example), the representation of the people is failing.

Personally, I regard these things as ultimately more significant than the economic impact of Brexit.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 18 Oct 20 - 04:20 AM

What we are seeing now is precisely what the people of Germany saw in the 1930s. A government spreading its own propaganda, making itself unaccountable, demonising minorities - ‘the other’ - and actively creating divisions, blaming others for their own actions and inactions, practicing the Goebbels philosophy of repeating lies so frequently that no matter how big are the lies, in the people’s minds they become truth.

And we tell ourselves it could never happen here, yet we have evidence of the success of the government’s brainwashing tactics on this forum and, indeed, in this thread. Well worth remembering that, in 1930s Germany, it didn’t begin with gas-chambers, it began with ruthless politicians determined to pursue their agenda whatever the cost.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 18 Oct 20 - 05:17 AM

We are all aware of the risks bring Hitler into threads like this, but I don't think that oversteps the mark, Backwoodsman. It is genuinely salient to look at what was happening around the time of the Enabling Act.

I have recently been reading a book called "They thought they were free: The Germans 1933-45", first published in 1955. The author is essentially a journalist, not a historian. So far I have only read the first part, which is events as seen through they eyes of ten relatively ordinary people: a local mayor, a policeman, a baker, a teenage schoolchild and so on. I am afraid I do see parallels, though fortunately I also see very substantial differences.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 18 Oct 20 - 05:28 AM

I deliberately didn’t mention Hitler, DMcG, for obvious reasons. However, the rise of the Far Right in the UK, as well as the US, is reminiscent of 1930s Germany, and some of the tactics and practices being employed are undoubtedly similar.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 18 Oct 20 - 05:33 AM

Quite so, Backwoodsman, quite so.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 18 Oct 20 - 06:25 AM

and of course ALL labour polititians are open, ethical and honest!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 18 Oct 20 - 06:25 AM

politicians that is!!!


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 18 Oct 20 - 06:29 AM

Politician - Sons of Cream!!!


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Raggytash
Date: 18 Oct 20 - 06:39 AM

Can you not read Bonzo.

Dave the Gnome posted "Of course it does, Nigel. People expect their politicians to be open, ethical and honest"

DMcG posted "I am not sure we now or ever actually expected politicians to be open, ethical and honest, Dave."

No mention there of Liberal, Labour, DUP, Scottish Nationalist, Plaid Cymru, Greens or Conservative. **

However we do have a Conservative leader who seems to be a stranger to the truth.









Apologys to those political parties I may have missed.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 Oct 20 - 11:32 AM

Whataboutism just doesn't wash, Bonzo. For the first time we have a prime minister who seems to see nothing wrong with lying, cheating and plain incompetence. What is more he seems to believe he can get away with it and will continue to do so as long as the very electorate that he is leading up the garden path continue to excuse him. I hope all the turkeys that voted for Christmas are happy with the result.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 18 Oct 20 - 12:16 PM

Tough.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 18 Oct 20 - 12:23 PM

Don’t. Feed. The. Troll.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 18 Oct 20 - 12:42 PM

Always the same when anyone questions the labour shambles, and it is a shambles. Even starmer has lost it now. One consolation perhaps is that abbott is out of the picture!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 18 Oct 20 - 01:42 PM

But how many Labour MPs are the current prime minister?


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 18 Oct 20 - 02:03 PM

doggerel from the dogs bollocks


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 Oct 20 - 04:30 PM

Bonzo. The Tories have an 80 seat majority. The lying blonde bufoon is prime minister. Labour are powerless to do anything but point out the idiocy. The mess we are in is no one's fault but the Conservative governments. Yet you, Boris, the Conservative party and the Tory apologists will take no responsibility for anything. Preferring instead to blame a Labour party who's hands are tied. I know you don't care but I take great pleasure in seeing you trying to lay the blame elsewhere while everyone else can see where it really lies. Keep it up :-)


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 18 Oct 20 - 04:42 PM

Dave, he is dogmatic, his dogma is blame everything on the party in opposition


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 Oct 20 - 04:50 PM

Bonzodogmatic? :-)


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Raggytash
Date: 18 Oct 20 - 06:00 PM

Bonzodogdoodah band were far more amusing. **












My apology for the poetic licence with the name !!


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 19 Oct 20 - 03:52 AM

These comments by Lord Kerr, and the earlier ones by Lord Neuberger fit into this discussion quite well, as the address the relationship between the judiciary and Parliament.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 19 Oct 20 - 04:28 AM

Good articles, Mac. No matter which side of the political divide anyone is on, the absolute necessity for a judiciary, independent of the political parties, with the power to call politicians to account, must be perfectly obvious.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 19 Oct 20 - 04:47 AM

As if by magic...

https://www.thelondoneconomic.com/opinion/the-government-has-moved-to-shift-blame-to-businesses/19/10/

So businesses are to blame for the government's failure to fulfil its promises

We are to blame for their abysmal record with the virus

Labour antisemitism anyone?


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 19 Oct 20 - 06:58 AM

Businesses should not be making any changes at all to the way they operate, and if anyone takes issue, then all they have to say is 'take it up with Johnson'.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 19 Oct 20 - 07:24 AM

Stolen from a Facebook friend. Bit long but well worth it

Post this
You really couldn’t make it up! ( sorry, did I say that last time...)
The Week in Tory is back! Fasten your seatbelts...
1. Boris Johnson announced a new 3 Tier lockdown system, with the lowest Tier being
“medium”, like at McDonalds
2. As part of the announcement, the Chief Medical Officer reassuringly said the plan wouldn’t
work
3. The govt said “in all cases, we are following the science”
4. It was revealed the SAGE science committee told the govt to lockdown weeks ago, but that
bit of science wasn’t followed very far 5. SAGE went on to say the govt’s “world-beating” £12bn
Test and Trace system was having only “a marginal impact on transmission rates”
6. Dido Harding, head of Seemingly Everything, said Test and Trace would be “local by default”
and be “highly efficient”
7. She then handed £12bn to Serco, which is highly efficiently charging us £7360 per day for
consultants. To trace Covid infections. Which they aren’t doing
8. Serco’s CEO is the brother of an ex-Tory MP. His partner is a Tory donor. Serco’s ex-head of
PR is now a Tory Health Minister
9. If you feel all this is a bit corrupt, you can complain to the govt’s Anti-Corruption Champion,
John Penrose, who is married to Dido Harding
10. Meanwhile an investigation by the Good Law Project found PPE suppliers owned by Tory
donors or associates were paid 30% more per item than similar businesses globally. I'm talling
you: John Penrose. He’s your fella. He’ll get to the bottom of it, fo shizzle
11. And only 34 days since the announcement of Boris Johnson’s "brainchild", the £100bn
Operation Moonshot, it was quietly scrapped, along with (apparently) Boris Johnson’s brain and
around 28% of his children
12. A Tory MP said Boris Johnson’s “personal skillset this doesn't play to this. He's not a details,
manager type. He's a picture painter”. On the side of wine-boxes, mostly.
13. Another said “I think it's obvious this is a government happier picking fights than governing”
14. Another said Boris Johnson “prefers to get on with dog-walking” and “let’s Dominic do the
work”
15. Chastened by reports local authorities were given only 5 minutes notice of previous
lockdowns, this time the govt gave them ... 7 minutes notice of the meeting to discuss it
16. Except some MPs didn't even get that, and were only invited after the meeting had started
17. And the govt invited the MP for Sunderland, who had to inform them she was only of 3
Sunderland MPs. The govt was “surprised to be informed” of this
18. The dep Chief Medical Officer said the infection rate in the north “never dropped” meaning
the relaxation of lockdown was at the expense of lives oop north
19. Then the govt said they would “devolve more decision-making” and “give more financial aid
to local authorities”
20. But the aid is conditional on the "devolved" local authority doing what the govt wants, which
is quite a novel a definition of "devolved" 21. So, following criticism, the govt briefed the press
that it was going to consult more with regional govts
22. Literally 2 hours later, the govt briefed the press that Manchester was moving into Tier 3
restrictions. The Mayor of Manchester was not consulted (or even informed) about a decision he
must implement, and which affects the largest city-region outside London.
23. A Tory MP, anxious about the lockdown affecting businesses over the party season, asked
the PM “what can you tell us about Christmas”. Boris Johnson replied, “it’s a religious festival
that’s been celebrated 2020 years”, which I’m sure helps us all
24. Matt Hancock insisted we all follow the science and adhere to the 10pm pub curfew that
scientists say makes absolutely no improvement on infection rates
25. Then Matt Hancock broke that curfew, in a House of Commons bar
26. And then Matt Hancock said “The drinks are on me but Public Health England are in charge
of payment methodology so I will not be paying anything”
27. In August, Public Health England was scrapped by [checks notes ] Matt Hancock
28. But prior to that, Tories imposed budget cuts of 5% to 10% on Public Health England for
each of the previous 7 years
29. Unsurprisingly, it was reported that hospitals in the north of England would run out of beds
within 7 days
30. The govt said "Hospital Trusts should consider cancelling all non-urgent treatments"
31. The govt then refused to drop fines it imposes on Hospital Trusts which cancel non-urgent
treatments
32. So Matt Hancock announced the reopening of Nightingale Hospitals, which were closed last
time because nobody could send patients to them, due to them not being staffed
33. They still aren’t staffed: Matt Hancock's' "urgent boost to nursing training" doesn’t start until
2021
34. Fortunately, the govt began a campaign to get ballerinas to retrain, and then scrapped the
campaign 24 hours later
35. In June, Boris Johnson announced an "urgent" £1.57bn Arts Rescue Plan
36. A mere 127 days later, it "urgently" got around to paying out some of that money
37. Except by now the £1.57bn had become £257m, which is 16% of the plan they originally
announced
38. Meanwhile, in news that will surely leave you all stunned and astonished, a month after work
began on HS2 the budget for it has already risen a further £800m
39. Boris Johnson congratulated Marcus Rashford on the MBE he was awarded for his efforts to
overcome the cruel policies of Boris Johnson
40. The Law Society raised concerns about the “dangerous rhetoric” of Home Office Minister
and Mouth of Sauron, Priti Patel
41. The next day, a migration lawyer was victim of a knife attack, and senior lawyers said
“Responsibility and accountability for this attack lies squarely at the feet of Priti Patel”
42. The Home Office announced plans to catch migrants in a big net and OH MY GOD
43. And then Lord West reassuringly said, “we need to deal with migrants in a concentrated
place, a camp or whatever”. He didn’t mention whether Arbeit Macht Frei, but it’s still only
Thursday, and who can tell what the remainder of the week will bring? [Open 2nd bottle now ]
44. Speaking of dates: today is 15th Oct, the absolute, immoveable deadline for trade talks that
mighty, fearsome Boris Johnson laid down to the cowed and quivering EU
45. Talks continue tomorrow. Because obviously, duuur
46. This is the third absolute deadline imposed by the British that has been missed because the
British have temporarily inverted arse and elbow
47. This didn’t stop Cabinet Office minister Lord Agnew from berating haulage businesses for
not being ready for Brexit on 1 Jan
48. The Road Haulage Assoc pointed out we have only 1,668 of the 33,000 EU Haulage
Permits we need on 1 Jan
49. Software to control our borders won’t be ready until 4 months after 1 Jan


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 19 Oct 20 - 07:25 AM

Conmtinued...

50. And the govt is “still in the planning stage” of the “Kent Passports” we need on 1 Jan
51. And construction of Kent's “world’s largest lorry park” is behind schedule, so probably not
ready on 1 Jan
52. Fortunately the govt is well-prepared, and plans to install 1000s of Portaloos in Kent, the
garden of England, to be used by lorry drivers trapped in 2-day queues
53. And our food standards will still be fine, as Tory MP Nadhim Zahawi tweeted “Our manifesto
was clear. We will not compromise our animal welfare and food standards”
54. He then voted to compromise our animal welfare and food standards, as did the rest of the
Tory Party
55. And then govt used an obscure rule to deny MPs a vote on whether to allow chlorinated
chicken
56. Meanwhile, 20 years after North Sea Cod became so overfished the WWF declared it
“economically extinct”, Tory MPs voted to reduce protections designed to let fish stocks recover
57. So, after Brexit, our current plan is to accept tariffs that will destroy our manufacturing
sector, and border delays that will destroy farming exports and imperil food supplies, and
destroy the farming sector ... all so we can go and catch a fish that doesn’t exist
58. But at least we’ve now "got back control", and therefore we can level up the playing field by
implementing the govt's landmark “digital tax” policy on giants such as Amazon
59. This week it was announced Amazon will be exempt from the digital tax
60. Speaking of tax exemptions, it was revealed Dominic Cummings has had a £30,000 council
tax bill “written off” because he built the house illegally, so it doesn’t count as a real house, or
summat. Sorry, my hurricane-force sarcasm briefly turned me more northern.
61. And on the subject of extreme dodgy dealing, let me direct your attention to Robert Jenrick,
who set up the £3.6bn “Towns Fund” for the 101 most deprived town, and then gave the
maximum grant of £25m to his own constituency, which is the 270th most deprived town
63. His explanation was that he, Jenrick, did not make the decision. It was made by a colleague,
Jake Berry.
64. Jake Berry also got money for his constituency. By a dazzling coincidence, that decision
was made by – you guessed it – Robert Jenrick
65. Finally: at a meeting led by Liam Fox, the TaxPayers Alliance (insanity-pushers to the Tory
Party) advocated cutting pensions immediately because half of old people “won't be around to
vote against you in the next election”, and the other half “will have forgotten by then”


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 19 Oct 20 - 10:32 AM

What a long list of stuff happening. How does it shake out for individual members? What are each of you seeing in your immediate world that is impacted by COVID-19-laced negotiations?


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 19 Oct 20 - 10:34 AM

Mrrzy just posted a Boxer parody about Trump and I think we can do better. I'll make a start

I am just a rich boy and and a smarmy Eton clown
I have squandered our economy
Lined my own mates pockets
And broke promises
I lie and jest
Still I do just what I have to do
And disregard the plebs
When they find out I have screwed them
I just lie
Lie lie lie
Lie lie lie lie lie lie lie
Lie lie lie...

:D tG


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 19 Oct 20 - 11:00 AM

In answer to your question, Stilly, I am pretty lucky. Retired on a reasonable pension. No debts to speak of. No real wish for material wealth. Living in an area of low contagion. So not much effect on me as yet. However, as the economy is bound to plummet as a result of both the virus and Brexit the future is pretty bleak for many, including my family and younger friends.

The other thing is, whether it affects me or not, I do not appreciate being lied to by those who are supposed to be looking after us. I have always been cynical of politicians in any party. I think that anyone who seriously believes they can run people's lives should be debarred from public office on the grounds of megalomania. But the lot we currently have at the helm really do take the piss. I will point out their lies and broken pledges whenever I come across them.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 19 Oct 20 - 11:20 AM

Like Dave, I am retired on a reasonable pension and not directly affected by much of this. But plenty around me are. I have a friend who owns a small haulage company and she is in near despair over the situation. Almost every question she has is still unanswered, and the licencing aspect alone has major impact. Eldest son works for an American legal firm in their London office and there is much uncertainty whether they will move everyone to their Brussels office, and if so, when. Second son works for an international fashion goods company (high end shoes, handbags etc) on the web sales side. So far they are in profit this year, having shut all the high street shops but the future is naturally uncertain. Since the growth area is online sales, though, he is probably ok.

Daughter works in recruitment, which is more affected by covid-19 than Brexit, as far as we can separate them.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 19 Oct 20 - 04:09 PM

I live on 485 euros a month, so if anyone wants to buy anything from my website , i will be pleased


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Mudcat time: 21 October 1:52 AM EDT

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