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Sexual exploitation in folk

Stilly River Sage 21 Nov 20 - 10:30 PM
Bill D 20 Nov 20 - 04:05 PM
Thompson 20 Nov 20 - 04:43 AM
Jack Campin 18 Nov 20 - 11:58 AM
Jack Campin 18 Nov 20 - 11:45 AM
Mrrzy 09 Aug 20 - 08:46 AM
SPB-Cooperator 09 Aug 20 - 03:20 AM
Steve Shaw 06 Aug 20 - 08:31 PM
mg 06 Aug 20 - 07:51 PM
Steve Shaw 06 Aug 20 - 06:37 PM
mg 06 Aug 20 - 04:39 PM
The Sandman 06 Aug 20 - 03:13 PM
punkfolkrocker 06 Aug 20 - 01:50 PM
punkfolkrocker 06 Aug 20 - 01:29 PM
The Sandman 06 Aug 20 - 01:10 PM
punkfolkrocker 06 Aug 20 - 12:54 PM
punkfolkrocker 06 Aug 20 - 12:48 PM
Steve Shaw 06 Aug 20 - 12:26 PM
punkfolkrocker 06 Aug 20 - 12:12 PM
The Sandman 06 Aug 20 - 11:39 AM
Steve Shaw 06 Aug 20 - 11:34 AM
punkfolkrocker 06 Aug 20 - 10:46 AM
punkfolkrocker 06 Aug 20 - 10:43 AM
The Sandman 06 Aug 20 - 10:41 AM
punkfolkrocker 06 Aug 20 - 10:38 AM
The Sandman 06 Aug 20 - 10:36 AM
punkfolkrocker 06 Aug 20 - 10:28 AM
The Sandman 06 Aug 20 - 03:31 AM
punkfolkrocker 05 Aug 20 - 12:12 PM
Stilly River Sage 05 Aug 20 - 11:35 AM
Mrrzy 05 Aug 20 - 08:54 AM
Doug Chadwick 05 Aug 20 - 04:39 AM
The Sandman 05 Aug 20 - 04:16 AM
hsempl 04 Aug 20 - 09:06 PM
Jeri 04 Aug 20 - 08:52 PM
Joe Offer 04 Aug 20 - 08:17 PM
Mrrzy 04 Aug 20 - 07:13 PM
Steve Shaw 04 Aug 20 - 06:07 PM
Steve Shaw 04 Aug 20 - 06:06 PM
Bonzo3legs 04 Aug 20 - 05:25 PM
Jeri 04 Aug 20 - 04:47 PM
Mrrzy 04 Aug 20 - 04:37 PM
Mrrzy 04 Aug 20 - 04:26 PM
The Sandman 04 Aug 20 - 12:23 PM
The Sandman 04 Aug 20 - 10:53 AM
Backwoodsman 04 Aug 20 - 10:52 AM
punkfolkrocker 04 Aug 20 - 10:26 AM
Jeri 04 Aug 20 - 10:26 AM
Steve Shaw 04 Aug 20 - 08:59 AM
Anne Lister 04 Aug 20 - 08:30 AM
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Subject: RE: Sexual exploitation in folk
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 21 Nov 20 - 10:30 PM

Good points, Bill.


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Subject: RE: Sexual exploitation in folk
From: Bill D
Date: 20 Nov 20 - 04:05 PM

I missed this in those few days in August. I was surprised too at the title, so I began reading the original link, and was expecting just a sad case of the all-too-common attempts by some men to 'hit on' young women. It happens in almost every field, and I was reading to see why 'folk' was being singled out. Of course, this young lady's first experience of DID happen in a folk camp...so...
Anyway, I read until I came to this:
". Someone who I saw as a friendly, professional, teacher figure had the audacity to message me like this. When I declined he told me it must have been one of his band mates messing around and pranking him. I believed the ‘banterous’ excuse and forgot about it. Until one night, he sent it again and I obliged…several times over a few months."

Suddenly, I thought... WHY did she simply 'oblige' after the 2nd request? Well, now the entire article took on a different tone. Despite the clearly inappropriate and exploitative 'request', there was now a case of the mental state of the victim, who was really unable to cope and had serious problems of self esteem.
   So, I began to read the replies and was partly bemused and partly upset by the way various people reacted. Some rose up in righteous indignation at the man.. and by extension, all men in any field who do this sort of thing. Others wanted names & details... as if that was really important to the main point. Others used the general topic of 'sex' to muse on human interactions in general and advance subjective opinions on 'p0rn' in general and the internet specifically.. without, as far as I could discern, any real expertise on the topic.
   (In case you wonder, I DO know what I'm talking about..)

By the time I had worked my way thru those who wanted to move the thread to MUSIC and those who explained that it was a bad idea and those who tried vainly to cast some semblance of reason to the relevance of the entire topic, I now see it refreshed with details.. and *another* thread drift to abuse by the clergy.

Yes, Mr. Campin... when there is evidence, something should be done and measures should be taken. I am not sure why Mudcat is the venue to pursue the details, but I do agree with the mods that it is not a matter that belongs above the line.
I'm not sure what else to say, but I'd think the whole thing has had about all the airing it deserves here.....


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Subject: RE: Sexual exploitation in folk
From: Thompson
Date: 20 Nov 20 - 04:43 AM

This whole discussion brings me right back to the early days of revelations of child abuse by priests and nuns. The immediate leap to defend the organisation, the disbelief, the victim-blame…


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Subject: RE: Sexual exploitation in folk
From: Jack Campin
Date: 18 Nov 20 - 11:58 AM

Marit's Norwegian link.

https://www.aftenposten.no/meninger/debatt/i/6zk6aQ/tvilsam-og-vulgaer-framferd-me-maa-opne-augo-for-seksuell-trakassering

(I forgot that some mod with a weirdly creepy agenda had shoved this thread below the line to get it out of the way - dunno who they're shielding. I won't be looking at it again unless I see it moved back where I put it).

Any thread with a sexual context is searched for and posted to incessantly by spammers and trolls. The amount of work needed to keep this thread running above the line isn't worth it and someone would have closed it months ago. ---Mudelf who has better things to do than shovel out porn links left behind by spammers


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Subject: RE: Sexual exploitation in folk
From: Jack Campin
Date: 18 Nov 20 - 11:45 AM

Article on FB by Marit Fält:

Here is an open letter from Norwegian trad/folk musicians and dancers regarding sexual harassment in the scene which I thought some of you might find interesting. This is the article through Google translate with some corrections:

So far, it seems that in the book industry it is safe to harass others. Exposing them is no one's responsibility. " Author Agnes Ravatn's Sunday comment in 'Aftenposten' newspaper is all too recognizable. Also for many in the folk music and folk dance environment.

For some of us, it is a shock that sexual abuse and harassment occur to a large extent in our own environment. Many have nevertheless experienced varying degrees of harassment, which in total constitutes a pattern. A pattern that we must open our eyes to, a tradition we should have killed a long time ago.
But none of us have ever seen or heard anyone in the scene warn about this. Now the time is ripe. With this text, we come together around this one issue: To make the folk music and folk dance environment a safe arena where everyone should be able to participate equally freely - without restraint.

Harrowing stories emerge
We are a small environment with voluntary teams, practitioners, educational institutions and workplaces. It is an environment which exists in social situations where different generations meet, an environment often including alcohol. Body contact in traditional dance is a natural part of our social gatherings. It is also an environment with focus on learning.

We experience it by and large as a positive environment. There are strong social bonds, people meet in common love for and interest in folk music and folk dance. But in parts of the environment, a man-heavy and patriarchal way of thinking and behavior is still dominant.

Doubtful and vulgar behaviors and verbal statements are often discussed and explained away with laughter and humor. We find a cultivation of individuals and give them permission to behave differently than others.

In recent years, a number of shocking stories have emerged about women who have been subjected to rape or attempted rape. Which without warning has revealed very noisy and unpleasant approaches and experiences. Some have also been exposed to verbal harassment, violence and other humiliating experiences.
Many of those who have performed these actions have different roles. Some have positions and power that make the threshold for reporting particularly high. Who will then warn and "destroy" an otherwise fine environment by downgrading the reputation of individuals? Moreover, the environment is so small, that one might find that one sees/meets the person in question for years to come, at competitions and festivals.

We are also aware that men have been exposed to harassment from women, but to a much lesser extent. Dark numbers can be large here and should be investigated.

We need stronger measures to be taken
Like the authors, (there seems to have been a discussion regarding sexual harassment in the literary scene in Norway) there are few folk musicians and folk dancers thatare also part of a common system that one can naturally warn and sanction. We rarely have a safety representative or an elected representative to turn to. And what should the sanctions be?

In connection with the #metoo movement in 2017, Folkorg (folk music and dance organisation) sent out guidelines for sexual harassment and abuse. We need stronger measures. A professional device that maps the scope, and adds a low-threshold offer for notification that can take care of both those who are exposed to harassment and abuse, and those who carry it out.

We urge the Norwegian Center for Folk Music and Folk Dance, with its overall organizational role above the field of folk music, to initiate immediate measures. We need a strategy on behalf of Folkorg, the Norwegian Youth Association and other folk music organizations. Preferably in consultation with Creo.

We need the environment to acknowledge that this is happening, and intervene. We need a deep dive into this and measures to secure the future we wish for future generations in folk music and folk dance. Only in this way can we both uncover these behaviors, and know to what extent and in what forums this happens. Not least, we can make the whole environment aware and responsible.
Those who sign the article have not necessarily been exposed to direct or serious #metoo experiences themselves. But they support those who have:

(Look at link for the names)


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Subject: RE: Sexual exploitation in folk
From: Mrrzy
Date: 09 Aug 20 - 08:46 AM

Right. It's a predatory-and-vulnerable-people problem, not a folk music problem.

Predators gonna prey. It's up to parents not to rear predators, parents to rear less vulnerable offspring, and society to protect those remaining vulnerable and to punish those remaining predatory.


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Subject: RE: Sexual exploitation in folk
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 09 Aug 20 - 03:20 AM

steve, you may have opened the floodgates there. When my better half and I go out for day trips, we always look for a 'ye old tea shoppe' to stop at for refreshments - particularly if combined with scones and clotted cream or some other cake!

All, with reference to the OP, I hope the person in the link hasn't come away with the idea that sexual exploitation is endemic in the folk scene, as this happens by the hands of a small minority in all fields of arts and employment where men (and sometimes women) abuse their position of power and authority.

W


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Subject: RE: Sexual exploitation in folk
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Aug 20 - 08:31 PM

Give me a call next time you're in north Cornwall and you'll be amazed at the royal way Mrs Steve and I will greet you!


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Subject: RE: Sexual exploitation in folk
From: mg
Date: 06 Aug 20 - 07:51 PM

I will never call you and I will never meet with you. If by accident I do, I will be civil.


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Subject: RE: Sexual exploitation in folk
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Aug 20 - 06:37 PM

Not sure what you mean as "present as men." The men I consort with here are, as far as I can see, are all honest-to-goodness men, even though a couple of them appear to be ne'er-do-wells. You really can't spend your life as if everyone is out to get you. I'm Steve, I'm a bloke (a feature which I can't help), I'm easy to track down here in north Cornwall for anyone who wants to bother, because I hide nothing. Why would I. You can get me straight away as a pin on Google Earth. Call in and I'll do you a cappuccino with my bean-to-cup, or a blow-off-your-head triple espresso (I'm a Lavazzo red label man) if you like (and I do like). Straight as a die. I even got my request played on BBC Radio 3 this morning (if you can get it, it was on Essential Classics at about 10.30 AM) to try to cheer up my sister who can't get to her beloved Andalucía this year due to the lockdown. They played Sevilla by Albéniz for me, on piano played by Alicia de Larrocha. I can tell you what we had for tea tonight, and that I'm going to see my 91-year-old mum in her care home tomorrow morning with a big stash of her favourite biscuits. If you find any of that creepy, do let me know. I get that any internet forum is two-dimensional and that it sometimes feels necessary to prowl around certain people with a healthy degree of suspicion. Same here. But we are not all Jack The Rippers, and it would be nice if you could keep your justifiable cautions to yourself rather than do a generalised smear.


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Subject: RE: Sexual exploitation in folk
From: mg
Date: 06 Aug 20 - 04:39 PM

It is not whether you are male or not (to me at least). It is whether you are creepy or abusive. I am careful on mudcat because of both types of people who present as men, very few in number to be sure. Most men here are fine, it seems, but then you never know. Pays to be careful. I refuse to read one person and am cautious around others.


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Subject: RE: Sexual exploitation in folk
From: The Sandman
Date: 06 Aug 20 - 03:13 PM

no.
now i am going to be absent for a while busy with other matters for a few days, have a nice day and enjoy and all the other stuff


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Subject: RE: Sexual exploitation in folk
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 06 Aug 20 - 01:50 PM

Dick - We are blokes, we are over 60;
and despite good intentions,
some of us are not as well informed and clear thinking open minded on these issues,
as we vainly think we are...???

Women of any age, orientation, and opinions,
have stopped posting in this thread while we continue to pontificate...

Does that not tell you something...???


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Subject: RE: Sexual exploitation in folk
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 06 Aug 20 - 01:29 PM

Dick - but isn't this thread primarily concerned with questioning the extent
male voices and agendas dominate discussions on sexuality...???

Evidence here tends to suggest it does...


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Subject: RE: Sexual exploitation in folk
From: The Sandman
Date: 06 Aug 20 - 01:10 PM

age is irrelevant and so is gender , people are entitled to opinions on this subject whether they are male female or trans gender.


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Subject: RE: Sexual exploitation in folk
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 06 Aug 20 - 12:54 PM

.. and the sheer amount of 'granny p0rn" on the internet
kinda quells your concern for saggy wrinkly redundancies...???

I can only guess who the main target market is,
but there is an obvious substantial demand for it...


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Subject: RE: Sexual exploitation in folk
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 06 Aug 20 - 12:48 PM

Steve - your opinion and presumptions versus the reality
of self determining autonomous women forging their own path in life..

Neither you nor I can speak for them,
and probably not much chance the'll debate their case here at mudcat...????


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Subject: RE: Sexual exploitation in folk
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Aug 20 - 12:26 PM

"...created and distributed on their own terms.."

Sure. Until they get mercilessly dumped on the scrapheap for being too wrinkly or saggy.


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Subject: RE: Sexual exploitation in folk
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 06 Aug 20 - 12:12 PM

All I'll say for now is,
this is yet another contentious issue that is far too complex for simplistic sweeping opinions from old men only...

There are plenty of strong independent women who would and do argue a case for positive p0rn,
created and distributed on their own terms..

Are you the men to tell them they are wrong...???

Btw.. My own 'old man opinion' is MOST existing p0rn is bad p0rn...


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Subject: RE: Sexual exploitation in folk
From: The Sandman
Date: 06 Aug 20 - 11:39 AM

There is nothing odd about being against sexual exploitation, online pornography of any kind involves sexual exploitation


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Subject: RE: Sexual exploitation in folk
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Aug 20 - 11:34 AM

I agree with Dick about this, on the whole (though you'd need an awful lot of shrinks to examine all those heads...). I don't think there's good and bad porn, just bad porn. Porn exploits both the actors and the receivers of the stuff, and porn diminishes humanity in the same way that the cynical gambling industry and the trade in illicit drugs does. It seems to me that, often, it's the users of such outlets who seek to justify them. One of the worst aspects of porn is that it is now the chief way in which young people learn about sex, and that's a very distorted form of learning about relationships in my opinion.


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Subject: RE: Sexual exploitation in folk
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 06 Aug 20 - 10:46 AM

Dick - I'm sure that here we all agree,
that any sexual activity where there is coercion and lack of consent is wrong,
and should be stamped on heavily by law enforcement...


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Subject: RE: Sexual exploitation in folk
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 06 Aug 20 - 10:43 AM

Dick - as with folk music, there is good and bad 'p0rn'..

Simplistic sweeping generalised dismissals should not apply...


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Subject: RE: Sexual exploitation in folk
From: The Sandman
Date: 06 Aug 20 - 10:41 AM

Sexual exploitation involves those who have to pose for internet pornography.


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Subject: RE: Sexual exploitation in folk
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 06 Aug 20 - 10:38 AM

Good lord.. I've just looked at the clock.. it's actually 2020...!!!

Two generations since the sexual revolution,
which has resulted in an uncomfortable mix up of positive progressively healthy,
and other more negative exploitative harmful,
attitudes and behaviours...


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Subject: RE: Sexual exploitation in folk
From: The Sandman
Date: 06 Aug 20 - 10:36 AM

Odd. no, I disapprove of sexual exploitation.


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Subject: RE: Sexual exploitation in folk
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 06 Aug 20 - 10:28 AM

Dick - it's 2001, and you seem to have a good internet connection...???

By now even most old folkie traditionalists have learned
they no longer need to be embarrassed asking newsagents
for under the counter mucky magazines and videos wrapped in a brown paper bag...

Unless some folks are still into hair shirts and self flagellation to repress their sinful thoughts...???

Frankly, that blurted puritanical statement is one of your oddest.

Particularly, posted in a thread concerned with very old fashioned male attitudes regarding sexual expression,
and entitlement...?????


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Subject: RE: Sexual exploitation in folk
From: The Sandman
Date: 06 Aug 20 - 03:31 AM

Anyone who seeks porn on the internet should have their head examined and maybe should be taking medication


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Subject: RE: Sexual exploitation in folk
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 05 Aug 20 - 12:12 PM

Stilly - for some reason, "Granny P0rn" has now become a big thing on the internet...

So don't get complacent and drop your defence radar, too soon just yet..

The pervs for your demographic are out there searching and waiting...


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Subject: RE: Sexual exploitation in folk
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 05 Aug 20 - 11:35 AM

We're lumping, not sorting here in BS, Mrrzy. It does help when people stop incessantly whining about not getting things their own way.

As a woman working in a "traditional" man's field in the 1970s I have lots of stories (that I won't share here). My college major was Forestry and I worked my way through college in the US Forest Service in timber management and forest fire fighting. Guys who were pretty good about being civil during the workday could be a royal pain in the evening if we were all down at the bar in the evening (in a small town there wasn't entertainment unless you went to the bar to play pool.) One boss had two women on his crew (a novelty back then) and used to act like he had a harem. Later working for the National Park Service, after changing majors, I encountered being hit on as a uniformed park ranger. The badge didn't seem to scare off jerks.

Getting ahead in a job, getting an opportunity to perform on stage, getting an opportunity to grow in your profession - as a group many women have had an uphill battle in many venues and often times changed fields career-wise to get away from the nonsense that management didn't choose to acknowledge. That was my experience in the 1970s and 80s. My experience around the folk scene was to drop in on hoots or song circles at my Dad's house or to attend concerts and parties after. The predators were there, as has been described above. All things being equal, it has been easier in the last couple of decades, but then, I'm older now, almost "invisible" as a crone in my 60s. There is something to be said for older women being able to simply get on with their lives without reference to being hit on by men.


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Subject: RE: Sexual exploitation in folk
From: Mrrzy
Date: 05 Aug 20 - 08:54 AM

I was wondering. I think it's all too easy not to *notice* how women are described by looks rather than behavior. Hope if this happens that MCs get called out on it.

And while I thank y'all for answering, I still think this separate question merited its own thread. However I do like the way you run the railroad, Joe, mudelves and all!


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Subject: RE: Sexual exploitation in folk
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 05 Aug 20 - 04:39 AM

Mrrzy,
I can't recall any occasion when female folk performers have been introduced by their looks and males by their talent. It's possible, of course, that I am so conditioned to hearing sexist remarks that I don't even notice. If it has happened, I feel it more likely to be "lovely and talented" rather than "lovely" vs "talented" and would be meant as a compliment. I think the same thing could apply if a female MC was introducing a male performer. As a male, I have never been introduced as handsome, good-looking, gorgeous or sexy but this has more to do with reality than sexism.

DCq


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Subject: RE: Sexual exploitation in folk
From: The Sandman
Date: 05 Aug 20 - 04:16 AM

Bonzo, as i have been the victim of sexual harassment it does matter to me.
It happens to men, heterosexual and probably gay men too, possibly gay women and heterosexual women


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Subject: RE: Sexual exploitation in folk
From: hsempl
Date: 04 Aug 20 - 09:06 PM

I hesitated to respond on this (or any) thread, as my recent experience on the "Are racist, but traditional songs OK" thread was so upsetting. But this is important. There is in fact sexism in the folk community, as there is everywhere - but that does not mean it shouldn't be talked about, but that it should be.
Re Mrrzy's question, I don't have data, but the "and next the lovely (female singer)" vs. "and next the talented (male singer)" sounds very familiar. I can't speak to how often it happens though, but (once open mics are a thing again), I will certainly be listening for it. It is a fact that the reverse "And next the lovely (male singer)" does not sound like something that would be said, and that is telling.
And Joe, it is important to be concerned about sexism, as it does affect perception and comfort, and has had a very real affect on folk musicians' careers. And the fact that my stomach is in knots interacting here after observing the misogynistic language on that other thread (where you stated you had difficulty restraining yourself from choking women who had, in your opinion, humiliated you; and yes, I know that's just a manner of speaking, but words have impact and are also revealing), is a testament to the fact that sexism led to my discomfort in interacting in a forum that before that I had enjoyed; and that avoidance on my part because of my resultant discomfort leads to missed opportunities to connect.
Yes, we are all human, we all are quicker to see fault in others than in ourselves, and we all get hurt and hurt others, often unintentionally. We all have sore spots that get stepped on accidentally. But that humanness is again more reason to talk about the sexism and it's effects. This feels very rough to talk about.


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Subject: RE: Sexual exploitation in folk
From: Jeri
Date: 04 Aug 20 - 08:52 PM

As to Mrrzy's question, I think one folk club is one folk club. I've usually heard something about talent at the venues I've gone to, but I suppose if there's a sexist MC, things might be otherwise.


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Subject: RE: Sexual exploitation in folk
From: Joe Offer
Date: 04 Aug 20 - 08:17 PM

No, Mrr. Threads are supposed to be broader, not divided into tiny subdivisions. If we make subdivisions, then people start wanting to post the same thing in five different threads, just to make sure their opinion is seen.

But to answer your question, certainly there is sexism in folk clubs. There's sexism everywhere. But I think it would be correct to say that while there are sexist individuals in folk clubs, there generally is not an overall atmosphere of sexism. Folkies are, in general, quite careful to avoid sexism.

But on the other hand, all of us are awkward at times when it comes to matters of gender and sexuality. There have been times when I was madly in love with women who weren't madly in love with me, and that can make for uncomfortable moments. And let's face it - sometimes people don't understand us despite our best intentions, and sometimes we mess up and just don't say the right thing.

Rather than getting overly concerned about people being sexist, I think we're better off realizing that we're all horribly human.

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: Sexual exploitation in folk
From: Mrrzy
Date: 04 Aug 20 - 07:13 PM

I would have been happy to leave it here, mudelf, but a) it's not what this thread is about and b) nobody is answering this question here. May we please have a separate thread for the separate question?


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Subject: RE: Sexual exploitation in folk
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Aug 20 - 06:07 PM

Abba. I forgot Abba...


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Subject: RE: Sexual exploitation in folk
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Aug 20 - 06:06 PM

"People who love classical music (just a "f'rinstance") bemoan the negative qualities of fans of rock, or reggae, or folk (more f'rinstances) a loud or boring or smelly (whatever).'

SOME people, eh, Jeri? I've been an aficionado of classical music for over half a century. My car CD collection includes mucho Elvis, Beatles, Stones, Carly Simon, Christy Moore, Planxty, Bothies, Glenn Miller, Shirley Collins, Dolly Parton, Mamas and Papas, Beach Boys and God knows how many others. Yeah, Pogues. And a ton of classical. No bloody jazz, no bloody Bing or Frank. Sorry for sounding so narrow,..


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Subject: RE: Sexism in folk clubs
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 04 Aug 20 - 05:25 PM

Does it really matter?


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Subject: RE: Sexual exploitation in folk
From: Jeri
Date: 04 Aug 20 - 04:47 PM

PFR, I've referred to the phenomenon as "reverse snobbery". People who love classical music (just a "f'rinstance") bemoan the negative qualities of fans of rock, or reggae, or folk (more f'rinstances) a loud or boring or smelly (whatever). A folkie (or whatever other f'rinstance) thinks how unfair and close-minded that is, because, after all, they aren't as open-minded, and kind, as US.
It's just one way people manage to (probably unintentionally) getting even with the bad guys by being better bad guys. Becoming that which they hate.

On topic.
There's a huge difference between what's done to people who have a choice and people who have done. In the former, the factor that leads to someone being taken advantage of, is innocence, or gullibility. It's the difference between emotional hurt and rape. I tend to think that, in the case of people who are taken of who are young enough so their brains haven't fully matured, the offenders should be prosecuted.

I had a very informative discussion with an OSI agent (if you know NCIS, it's the US Air Force's version), the brain maturity thing really does matter. Just ONE thing bad that can result is the victim may end up believing their worth depends on their sexuality.

But in the end, there are a whole load of things that SHOULD happen. Education, trust in adults who know better, and learning to have enough confidence and assertiveness to say "no" when someone makes an inappropriate suggestion.


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Subject: Sexism in folk clubs
From: Mrrzy
Date: 04 Aug 20 - 04:37 PM

This question came out of the thread on sexual exploitation. That article started with a complaint that before performing, women are introduced by their looks, but men by their talent, the way athletes eete [are?] commentated as athletic if black and intelligent if white. Then the article, and the thread, went on about exploitation, but I was already shocked by the initial complaint.

I thought about refreshing the Is the US more sexist than racist thread but it did not appear to be on point. Same for other related threads.

So I ask of those of you who perform for, or are frequent members of, audiences where music-makers are introduced by an MCish individual: is it really the case that if you're female-looking, they say And now the lovely X, but if you look male, they say And now the talented Y?

Keep the topic on one thread, and leave it here. Thanks. ---mudelf


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Subject: RE: Sexual exploitation in folk
From: Mrrzy
Date: 04 Aug 20 - 04:26 PM

Ok starting a new thread for my question.


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Subject: RE: Sexual exploitation in folk
From: The Sandman
Date: 04 Aug 20 - 12:23 PM

sexual exploitation of men by women. It does happen , in fact it happened to me.


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Subject: RE: Sexual exploitation in folk
From: The Sandman
Date: 04 Aug 20 - 10:53 AM

Anne Lister. you said this quote
And yes, it would be good to name names, but all that would happen then is that some would close ranks around the names and deny it was possible (we can see that in the responses already on this thread) i feel insulted that you have suggested that i might close ranks and deny it was possible.
I have never suggested that in my responses on this thread,
and as for being insulted because i spelled your name [a typo ann instead of anne]. is laughable.
your use of the word some , does not let you off the hook. I object to the possibilty in your wording that i might be included in some, is that clear. i do not condone or believe sexual exploitation is ok.
if you are a professional or semipro musician it is your work ok so this is what you are supposed to doIf you experience sexual harassment at work

    if the behaviour is serious or continues, you should make a written formal complaint.
    if the behaviour continues you might need mediation.
    if the person harassing you is your employer and they do not stop, get outside support.
    It is your right to be protected at work.


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Subject: RE: Sexual exploitation in folk
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 04 Aug 20 - 10:52 AM

Two very good posts, Anne - intelligent and insightful.
Like you, I’m at a loss to understand why anyone would feel ‘insulted’ by anything you have written.


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Subject: RE: Sexual exploitation in folk
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 04 Aug 20 - 10:26 AM

It is fair and reasonable for us
to single out and focus on exploitation, abuse, hypocrisy, and denial
in the folk music community,
because mudcat is after all a folk forum...???

I'd insist that the issue is exacerbated by the habitual tendency of middle class folkies
to regard themselves as culturally and morally superior
to other genres of contemporary music fan identities
they snootily look down on...


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Subject: RE: Sexual exploitation in folk
From: Jeri
Date: 04 Aug 20 - 10:26 AM

I just now read this. I was thinking I'd be replying that the supposed rape by the knight of that shepherd's daugher may have really been something a lot more complicated, but it wasn't about music, so...
This is a thing thad doesn't have anything specifically to do with folk music. It happens everywhere, with every profession. So it happens with folk musicians.
It's not right, but to some extent, life tests people's survival skills, and it's impossible to protect people. What folks CAN do is try to warn people. Folks need to know how to recognize bad or inappropriate behavior. As Anne Lister said, it's not a matter for the law. It's a matter of teaching young people how to say "no" when someone asks for nude photos, and the fact is, you won't know when that request happens. Additionally, that young person probably wouldn't listen, anyway. To some extent, this is an opportunity for learning at the school of hard knocks. Hopefully, the person will figure it out before much, or any, damage is done.


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Subject: RE: Sexual exploitation in folk
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Aug 20 - 08:59 AM

Amen to that.


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Subject: RE: Sexual exploitation in folk
From: Anne Lister
Date: 04 Aug 20 - 08:30 AM

Dick, you should be aware that the kind of behaviour which is being discussed on this thread is not necessarily anything which can be dealt with by any court. The events will be between two people, generally without witnesses, and may not be considered rape or any kind of obvious sexual abuse but which are, nonetheless, abusive and exploitative. Names have not been named, and there is no question of a "kangaroo court", or judgement by Mudcat. Because something is not necessarily subject to legal action or proof does not make it something which disappears or is negligeable in its effects on the person exploited. It takes a huge amount of courage for anyone to speak out about this stuff and you have only to look at a small amount of the literature about even serious cases of rape, child abuse, and other sexual abuse to know that only a tiny percentage of these cases ever reach the ears of the police, social workers, legal experts or anyone who is supposed to "judge" - mostly because it is deeply humiliating for the recipient of the abuse (I'm trying not to use the word "victim" here) to talk about it and be questioned about it. So that's why I wrote as I did. None of the young women who have been writing recently about their experiences are looking for prosecutions, but they are explaining why they do not feel safe in the folk world. Nor were they necessarily children in the eyes of the law when this all took place - this is not about Dave Cooper or Noel Murphy,although you seem determined to mention them. No one is saying either, by the way, that the folk world is the only place this happens - of course it isn't. But we are a community which prides itself on liberal, tolerant and forward-thinking attitudes, and these predators have been able to continue without challenge.
It's also worth noting that none of the personal accounts are naming names. I really can't understand why you feel insulted, Dick. By the way, I feel insulted that you can't even be bothered to spell my name correctly. If you are not participating in the behaviour or covering up for someone else, then clearly my remarks are not addressed to you personally. I do, though, have experience which you do not, and cannot, share, and I do know what I'm talking about - which I suspect you do not. Have you actually read the accounts of the women which started this thread?
I note that the EFDSS have reacted to these issues. Equity have had to make policy statements. I'm sure the MU also have a policy too - but of course the predators are unlikely to take note of this or feel it applies to them. This is about prominent musicians, organisers and agents using their status, position, charisma and personal charm to take advantage of women, some of whom may be aspiring professionals themselves and some of whom may be members of audiences or workshops. All the stories I have heard relate to male predators and female "targets", and a heterosexual relationship, although I am fully aware that other possibilities exist. If you, personally, have never come across anything that fits this description, consider yourself lucky (and probably male). Many of us women know the situation all too well, but we haven't talked about it much before and we should have done. Start listening to the women.


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