BS: Trump Actions and Effects

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Actions and Effects
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Jan 21 - 05:46 AM

The millions who voted for Trump/Johnson/brexit were all the more easily manipulated because of the lack of political education. In a proper democracy it's crucial that the voters are made more resilient to wily politicians who pretend that their simple promises are the way to run the country. I'd hasten to add that a politician has to be wily in order to survive, but being wily doesn't mean being a liar, and a well-educated electorate would the more easily be able to see the difference. Of course, as soon as you advocate political education (by which I emphatically do not mean "citizenship" education) you're labelled a commie, a red under the bed, a raving leftie revolutionary... .

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Actions and Effects
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 17 Jan 21 - 02:55 AM

I don't think they were all insane either Kevin. Any more than the 17.4 million who voted for Brexit were insane either. They do have one thing in common. They were conned by populist lies. Not to say they were easily fooled either. The conmen, led by Trump and Johnson, are very good at it. They tell people what they want to hear and are very convincing. They were supported by mainstream media and well funded. It is the manipulation of politics by outside influences that needs to stop. In my opnion.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Actions and Effects
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 17 Jan 21 - 02:23 AM

One thing that feeds into the ability of some seemingly rational people to hold on to the Steal lie is maybe that the allegations have been so over the top that they've been rejected by courts out of hand. When the rogue congress members called for a commission to examine fraud allegations, they may have been insincere, but it might have been a good idea to take them up on it, but require that such a commission should take place after the inauguration of Biden.

Clearly there's a case for examining the whole business of how elections are carried out in the states. There have to be some limits on the ability of states to make voting harder for some people by restricting the number of polling sites and so forth. Unpacking allegations of voting fraud would fit well within that context. (In fact I believe it is common practice in many democracies to examine that kind of thing after elections.

I don't suggest that the hardcore Trumpists would waver in the face of the strongest evidence that they've been lied to, but I can"t believe 75 million Americans are all irredeemably insane.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Actions and Effects
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 16 Jan 21 - 11:22 AM

When does the rest of the world get to declare the USA a rogue failed state,
and send in military peace keeping missions...???

.. at least it's been proven beyond doubt America has stockpiled WMD...

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Actions and Effects
From: Donuel
Date: 16 Jan 21 - 11:13 AM

Even Luxemburg won't allow Pompeo to visit for 'state dept talks'.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Actions and Effects
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 16 Jan 21 - 11:11 AM

"Fascistbook"...

A too easy pun, which is no longer just a glib smartarse remark...

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Actions and Effects
From: Donuel
Date: 16 Jan 21 - 11:04 AM

Don't forget the radicalization process was invented by Facebook with alogorhythems that refeed one point of view to maximize their advertising dollar. It is imo the biggest richest enabler.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Actions and Effects
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 16 Jan 21 - 10:42 AM

donald trump.. Public Enemy No. 1...

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Actions and Effects
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 16 Jan 21 - 10:31 AM

Donuel's list of 15 Jan 21 - 03:50 PM has been in the news the last couple of days as prosecutors and FBI and various state investigators track down hundreds of offenders from the January 6 assault on the Capitol. News of each of their raisons d'être as they are arrested is disheartening. So many nasty groups out there, all unleashed and energized by the cretin Trump.

If that is what the makeup of the Republican party is now, there won't be a quick return to normal for the good people who did a yeoman's job of bashing Trump with the Lincoln Project. As I listened to them talk in interviews I was aware that once Trump is out, they would restore the GOP to it's old self - but now it's looking like that won't be so easy.

On my radio just now - "Pompeo spoke on Voice of America recently . . ." damn, that's another broken agency. Trump's folks trashed it into a horrible source of vitriol for the world, no news or leading by example. One more thing for the "to do" list.

Subject: RE: BS: A very important post
From: Donuel
Date: 16 Jan 21 - 08:48 AM

IF TRUMP CAN RESPOND TO A NATIONAL EMERGENCY he could declare a National emergency and thus impose martial law keeping Biden from assuming control.
This is why there is an overwhelming presence of national guard in DC so a national emergency of riots can not take place.
There is chatter and intelligence to support this scenario.
Mike Lindell was at the White House yesterday and supports the martial law plan according to the Washington Post.
Because Trump's Plan A failed to kill lawmakers on DC a second wave of Inauguration riots seems like plan b.
I don't know if a hypothetical takeover of the Madison Wisconsin capitol building would be enough to justify National Emergency martial law.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Actions and Effects
From: Donuel
Date: 16 Jan 21 - 08:05 AM

Trump is so virulent he got a second dose of impeachment this week just like the
Covid vaccine.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Actions and Effects
From: Donuel
Date: 16 Jan 21 - 07:51 AM

Protest and dissent is at a new low. Dissent merchandise sold on the internet are things like small buttons that say "science is real"
How provocative is that?

operation warp speed should be called warped greed.
There are no US government reserve vaccines left.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Actions and Effects
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 16 Jan 21 - 06:08 AM

For once, Bonz, we are in agreement.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Actions and Effects
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 16 Jan 21 - 05:48 AM

So the last execution has taken place under fucking shit trump, of a man convicted 24 years ago, which is cruelty beyond belief.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Actions and Effects
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 16 Jan 21 - 05:01 AM

Thanks Robo.

DC

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Actions and Effects
From: robomatic
Date: 15 Jan 21 - 10:32 PM

Doug Chadwick:

My reference to "pull 'is own 'ead off rather than see Doug" was a reference to an old Monty Python sketch on how non-desirous a criminal was to have to answer to the master criminal Doug Piranha who used...............sarcasm. "'E knew all the tricks, metaphor, pathos, pun, litotes, and satire!"

The regular practise of Question Time seems to be somewhat more erudite and brassy than American legislators are wont to endure in modern times. The mastery both questioner and PM have to have to endure this swift repartee seems to be well beyond what puffed up yankee solons can view with impunity.

As to harsh desires some of us may have regarding our outgoing President and his 'sisters and his cousins and his aunts' (That's a Gilbert and Sullivan reference). some of you might enjoy the recent "Squeeze Me" novel by Carl Hiaasen in which the Current Occupant runs into problems on his golf resort when large burmese pythons begin to show up, apparently by invitation, to embarrass him and his supporters, to say the least.

In the meantime, yesterday I got my first covid vaccine shot from an Anchorage school system nurse. Reported on in the vaccine thread.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Actions and Effects
From: Donuel
Date: 15 Jan 21 - 08:36 PM

There is a definate over reaction show of force in DC.
There is also a over reaction by Fox News accusing Democrats of lies, riots and a plan to frame Trump. btw they say lockdowns are a lie and don't work. who knew

what happened to tar and feathers?

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Actions and Effects
From: Bill D
Date: 15 Jan 21 - 04:33 PM

Really? What happened to tar & feathers and a rail?

I like parades!

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Actions and Effects
From: gillymor
Date: 15 Jan 21 - 04:21 PM

Now the old dickhead wants a military send-off on inauguration day and I think we should give it to him. Strap him to an ICBM, point it towards Mar a Lago and start the countdown.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Actions and Effects
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 15 Jan 21 - 03:55 PM

Like ancient world god-like emperors
decreeing their families, servants, soldiers, horses, and dogs
be entombed with them
when they die...

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Actions and Effects
From: Donuel
Date: 15 Jan 21 - 03:50 PM

Who are the extremist rioters?

They are extremely varied-
Qanon- a virtual religious cult of Trump prophecies and magical thinking
Nazis- are under diffrent titles; boogaloo boys, proud boys and KKK spin offs
Tea party mutants- people who had truth decay from the start and evolved into predators
Religious right- From Jerry Falwell to Bob Jones protestant graduates
2nd Amendment fans- Paranoid since Obama who prefer Sandy Hooks to gun control
Rush Limbaugh veterans- People who always hated women and others smarter than themselves
Typical racists- Exploiters and folks secretly envious of blacks
Militias- 1%'s, oath keepers and lodges that play soldier on weekends.
AK 47 - enthusiasts looking for a reason

There are others of course but the main thing is that they do not get along with each other or authorities.

Americans- Exposed to media that shapes their hate strategicly

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Actions and Effects
From: Helen
Date: 15 Jan 21 - 03:35 PM

As witnessed, Raggytash, by the fact that Trump said he would be there with them at the Capitol and then held a big party and watched it all on television and delayed calling in the National Guard until Mike Pence finally did it.

Yep, pfr, very similar to the Jonestown massacre.

I always knew Trump was stupid, but how stupid is it to kill off your own fan base by denying that the virus is real and deliberately putting them in danger? I don't think rational thinking is in his repertoire either.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Actions and Effects
From: Raggytash
Date: 15 Jan 21 - 03:25 PM

Trump is like all bullies, he is a coward. He will never put himself in physical danger.

He might put his wife or his children in that position but never himself.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Actions and Effects
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 15 Jan 21 - 03:21 PM

Helen - yeah.. trump's larger mass scale equivalent of the cult poison suicide Jonestown Massacre..

..or if he goes for the 'Alamo option'.. the Waco siege...

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Actions and Effects
From: Helen
Date: 15 Jan 21 - 02:37 PM

pfr said, "The threat of time on death row might appeal to his instinct for cutting a deal for clemency
on condition he fucks off into quiet exile...???"

But, what's the probability of Trump being able to stay out of trouble and keep his big mouth shut for any length of time, let alone the rest of his life. And as leeneia said, the Hydra effect would kick in and the Trump sprogs would kickstart their political careers.

As Raggytash said about seeing "Trump and his followers humiliated and repentant" those two responses are not in a sociopath's repertoire.

And pfr, "But with all the trumpzi internal terrorists at large, you might need a bigger camp... " don't forget to factor in the superspreader events facilitated by Trump for his massive fan base. Sadly, the massive fan base might be drastically reducing day by day and the blame for that lies squarely in Trump's lap.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Actions and Effects
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 15 Jan 21 - 02:29 PM

They need to close Guantanamo and use the prisons for people who really need to be in there (Trump domestic terrorists) now that they will hopefully release those charged wtih minor drug offenses that were way over-prosecuted.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Actions and Effects
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 15 Jan 21 - 02:16 PM

It's quite handy trump decreed Guantanamo Bay should remain open for business..

But with all the trumpzi internal terrorists at large, you might need a bigger camp...

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Actions and Effects
From: gillymor
Date: 15 Jan 21 - 01:48 PM

Thanks, elf.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Actions and Effects
From: gillymor
Date: 15 Jan 21 - 12:49 PM

The ? in my last post was meant to be a smiley face.

---

They don't show; I edited in a text version of it for you. ;-) ---mudelf

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Actions and Effects
From: Donuel
Date: 15 Jan 21 - 12:42 PM

I'm glad the Nurmemburg trials didn't sentence Goering to humilliation, atonement and repentance.
Nazi sympathsizers and white supremists come in many flavors I guess.
Or am I being too harsh on Rudy and friends?
Kids torn from their parents and put in barb wire camps have still not been reunited.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Actions and Effects
From: gillymor
Date: 15 Jan 21 - 12:40 PM

pfr, your fun game might be more fun if the answer weren't so obvious. :-)


When trump contracted COVID-19 I hoped it would croak him because given his continuing disinterest in dealing with the virus as a public health issue his death would have saved a lot of innocent lives and we wouldn't be in this dire situation now. When and how he sheds this mortal coil is now of no consequence to me as long as he's gone.
A Pew Poll conducted from Jan.8-12 has him a at a 29% approval rating, the lowest of his term with a note worthy decline among Republicans.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Actions and Effects
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 Jan 21 - 12:36 PM

Repentant is too much to ask for. Humiliated perhaps not.

But what's really needed is to find some way to open the eyes of some of his supporters.   There is always a significant number of people in any society who are basically lost souls when it comes to thee kind of things. But generally they are a relatively small proprtion - call them a fringe, call them a gardcore, but there aren't tgat geat a proprtion.

But what is frightening is that belief in Trumpism and the lies of Trump appear to be actually shared by the large majority of those who voted for Trump. It was easy enough to imagine why people might choose to opt for either of the candidates in both Presidential elections, as in any election, But this kind of brand loyalty is very hard to make sense enough. Hold your nose and vote for what seems like the lesser of two evils - but to actually like and Trust someone like Trump, that is unconceivable.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Actions and Effects
From: Raggytash
Date: 15 Jan 21 - 11:50 AM

"Me, I want to see Trump and his followers humiliated and repentant. They can't atone for their sins if they're dead."

Charmion, we have an expression this side of the pond "in your dreams" which means that is absolutely not going to happen.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Actions and Effects
From: Donuel
Date: 15 Jan 21 - 11:43 AM

pfr
Abraham bound his son Isaac on an altar at Moriah long ago, as he had been instructed by God. An angel stopped Abraham when he was about to slay his son and switched Isaac with a ram!
Donald bound his son Donald on an alter in Maralago, as he had been instructed by Satan. A demon stopped Donald when he was about to slay his son to reverse election results and switched Donald with Donald!

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Actions and Effects
From: Charmion
Date: 15 Jan 21 - 11:39 AM

I'm with Doug Chadwick on refraining from wishing death on others.

According to the New York Times and the Wall Street Journal, Mr T's supporters in Congress are claiming that his inflammatory rhetoric is just colourful figurative talk, and it's not his fault certain people took him seriously.

Me, I want to see Trump and his followers humiliated and repentant. They can't atone for their sins if they're dead.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Actions and Effects
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 15 Jan 21 - 11:36 AM

trumpzi militia guerillas would be taking semi auto machine guns, hunting rifles, and body armour
to a Drones and Cruise missiles fight...

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Actions and Effects
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 15 Jan 21 - 11:21 AM

donald trump, Messianic leader of a death cult...???

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Actions and Effects
From: Donuel
Date: 15 Jan 21 - 11:20 AM

Most people know that the 3rd Reich soldiers took Pervatin (crystal meth) and later oxycodone. It seems the rag tag nazis in America do too.
I wwwould hope they will also use Himmler's little helpers (cyanide)

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Actions and Effects
From: Donuel
Date: 15 Jan 21 - 11:03 AM

Comedic relief can cause some grief
but is worth the needed release

Pense was seconds away from a crossfire and lynching event.
It would have changed the nature of the gallows humor if he had been shot or hung.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Actions and Effects
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 15 Jan 21 - 11:01 AM

Doug - Not a time for squeamish moral superiority bollocks..

I am a pacifist, but not an absolutist pacifist.

As a general rule I would prefer not to wish death on anybody.

I am anti death penalty,
but accept there are valid extreme exceptions when it may be a last resort viable pragmatic solution...

trump may be one of them..

The threat of time on death row might appeal to his instinct for cutting a deal for clemency
on condition he fucks off into quiet exile...???


Here's a fun game..

Let's guess trump's response to being told by a higher authority
that he could make things right again
by either sacrificing his own, or his son's life...???

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Actions and Effects
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 15 Jan 21 - 10:43 AM

PFR,
I know you like to use sarcasm to make your point, but some of your last few posts, on how to get rid of Trump and his close supporters, seem decidedly unpleasant. I am sure you can find some valid points to make without hoping for people's deaths.

DC

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Actions and Effects
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 15 Jan 21 - 10:22 AM

Ideally, trump and his close allies choose a glorious Alamo style last stand on one of his estates..
Get it over quick, done and dusted..
Start slowly rebuilding the US...

Some worshippers would write the history of his heroic martyrdom.
Most of the world would write him off as a pathetic failed tyrant..

.. adding, trump to the list of saddam, gadafi, bin laden, etc...

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Actions and Effects
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Jan 21 - 10:04 AM

If the Senate trial fails to convict, he couldn't claim double jeopardy as that trial is not related to due process in the criminal justice system, but it would be grist to the mill of Trump and his supporters in the event of a criminal trial. I agree with gillymor about having the courage to go for him fully, but there will be consequences: it keeps him prominently in the public eye for a protracted period - think of the headlines week after week - and it would very likely whip up whatever supporters he would still have by then. I suspect it would still be tens of millions.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Actions and Effects
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 15 Jan 21 - 09:57 AM

.. quick googling suggested the ultimate sentence for sedition in the USA
is death...???

trump has shown himself to be a very enthusiastic supporter for the death penalty..

.. just saying..


Many, many, Americans have been executed for far lesser crimes
than the accumulation trump is guilty of...

.. and if his most fanatical acolytes pledge to sacrifice their lives for him as wannabe civil war martyrs..

That's their choice...

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Actions and Effects
From: gillymor
Date: 15 Jan 21 - 09:18 AM

"I could easily see it being claimed as another QAnon/"biggest witch hunt in history"/Elitist plot."
Of course it will be but we've got to stop cowering before this would-be dictator if we're ever going to be rid of him.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Actions and Effects
From: DMcG
Date: 15 Jan 21 - 09:10 AM

The link Donuel shared makes it fairly clear that the double jeopardy defence would not apply in law, at least in the opinion of Cornell Law School. Whether that would mean Trump's lawyers and any media he still has on side would not claim it "in the court of public opinion" is quite another matter. I could easily see it being claimed as another QAnon/"biggest witch hunt in history"/Elitist plot.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Actions and Effects
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 Jan 21 - 09:02 AM

" I think you'd be in a big mess if you tried putting him in the dock."

It's all a big mess whatever happens. But the fact that the Senate might fail to support the impeachment need not in any way interfere with a court trial. I can't see how it could be seen as double jeopardy. The impeachment isn't a criminal prosecution. And the difference from the last impeachment is that this time it is pretty evident there will be a majority vote against him, just not enough to reach the two-thirds level.

Getting a jury together might be a bit tricky. I doubt if there are many people in Amerca who haven't pretty firm settled opinions about these issues.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Actions and Effects
From: gillymor
Date: 15 Jan 21 - 08:48 AM

Agreed, Donuel, this can't be a quickie trial. There were reports from White House workers that trump, instead of calling for aid in quelling the riot, was tromping around the place wondering why everyone wasn't more excited about the storming of the Capitol. These people need to be deposed, they can't just rely on trump's pre-riot speech. Fortunately McConnell won't be setting the agenda this time around.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Actions and Effects
From: Donuel
Date: 15 Jan 21 - 08:35 AM

The worst scenario is a NYT headline of TRUMP ACQUITED TWICE
A rushed impeachmnt has its risks compared to waiting to see more evidence of collusion with sedition and mob attacks.

Lyndsy Graham says be afraid our mob will get you if you impeach (paraphrase)
But trump is a one trick pony and does not have time to assemble more death marches. If the fascists were going to openly shoot they would have alraedy. That does not preclude cowardly snipers.

Same with the Qanon shaman wearing horns did not stab anyone with his spear.

Subject: RE: BS: Trump Actions and Effects
From: gillymor
Date: 15 Jan 21 - 08:29 AM

Legislators and prosecutors need to do their constitutional duty regardless of where it leads, we've had enough lawlessness these past 4 years.