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Apache recorded 60 years ago!

punkfolkrocker 23 Jun 20 - 04:02 PM
Bonzo3legs 23 Jun 20 - 04:21 PM
Dave the Gnome 23 Jun 20 - 04:25 PM
Backwoodsman 23 Jun 20 - 04:40 PM
GUEST,big al whittle 23 Jun 20 - 04:49 PM
Backwoodsman 23 Jun 20 - 04:51 PM
Bonzo3legs 23 Jun 20 - 05:04 PM
Dave the Gnome 23 Jun 20 - 05:25 PM
Backwoodsman 23 Jun 20 - 05:31 PM
Steve Shaw 23 Jun 20 - 05:57 PM
Joe Offer 23 Jun 20 - 06:00 PM
punkfolkrocker 23 Jun 20 - 06:04 PM
punkfolkrocker 23 Jun 20 - 06:09 PM
GUEST,Roger. 23 Jun 20 - 06:09 PM
Tattie Bogle 23 Jun 20 - 06:16 PM
GUEST,Guest Anonyme 24 Jun 20 - 02:15 AM
Dave the Gnome 24 Jun 20 - 02:45 AM
GUEST,Rossey 24 Jun 20 - 05:59 AM
GUEST,Guest Anonyme 24 Jun 20 - 05:59 AM
andrew e 24 Jun 20 - 08:24 AM
GUEST 25 Jun 20 - 03:39 AM
GUEST,Rossey 25 Jun 20 - 09:01 AM
punkfolkrocker 25 Jun 20 - 09:10 AM
Backwoodsman 25 Jun 20 - 09:27 AM
Stilly River Sage 25 Jun 20 - 11:06 AM
punkfolkrocker 25 Jun 20 - 11:20 AM
punkfolkrocker 25 Jun 20 - 11:44 AM
punkfolkrocker 25 Jun 20 - 11:47 AM
GUEST,Rossey 25 Jun 20 - 01:45 PM
GUEST,Rossey 25 Jun 20 - 01:49 PM
punkfolkrocker 25 Jun 20 - 01:54 PM
punkfolkrocker 25 Jun 20 - 02:17 PM
Bonzo3legs 25 Jun 20 - 06:25 PM
leeneia 26 Jun 20 - 03:28 PM
GUEST,bernieandred 26 Jun 20 - 11:38 PM
Bonzo3legs 27 Jun 20 - 01:00 PM
Stilly River Sage 27 Jun 20 - 01:05 PM
Bonzo3legs 27 Jun 20 - 01:08 PM
punkfolkrocker 27 Jun 20 - 01:33 PM
Bonzo3legs 27 Jun 20 - 01:53 PM
The Sandman 27 Jun 20 - 02:41 PM
GUEST,Rossey 27 Jun 20 - 03:29 PM
punkfolkrocker 27 Jun 20 - 03:56 PM
Backwoodsman 27 Jun 20 - 03:58 PM
Backwoodsman 27 Jun 20 - 04:06 PM
punkfolkrocker 27 Jun 20 - 04:50 PM
Backwoodsman 27 Jun 20 - 05:20 PM
Bonzo3legs 28 Jun 20 - 04:47 AM
fat B****rd 28 Jun 20 - 06:05 AM
Bonzo3legs 28 Jun 20 - 06:07 AM
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Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 23 Jun 20 - 04:02 PM

Jeri - careful.. I might go off on a jimdick* tirade about how 'punk'
is the beating primordial heart of all good folk traditions with rebel attitude..

[* a new word, if anyone wants it...]


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Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 23 Jun 20 - 04:21 PM

That Hank Wangford Band link plays for me in VLC.


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Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 23 Jun 20 - 04:25 PM

I never realised the influence that the Four Seasons had on the Tremeloes but once I knew it was obvious. There's a lot of it about! I suspect the popular acts at the time influenced the source singers ;-)


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Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 23 Jun 20 - 04:40 PM

The Tremeloes! Another band we played support for when Brian Poole was with them and their single of Twist & Shoutí was No. 1 in the chart. A damn fine band and good guys - Alan Blakley lent me his Strat, it was the first one I ever played. At the time it was the biggest crowd Iíd played to, about a thousand at a dance-hall gig.

This thread has dredged up some great memories, Iím sure thereís more to come...

https://youtu.be/IAUFQQeZuFk


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Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: GUEST,big al whittle
Date: 23 Jun 20 - 04:49 PM

i don't find Apache all that easy to play


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Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 23 Jun 20 - 04:51 PM

First tune I learned to play, Al. Long before I even knew how to play E, A and B7!


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Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 23 Jun 20 - 05:04 PM

I used to tune my guitar to Apache, trouble was we had a gramophone built by my Dad which had an ex GPO turntable marked for 33 1/3 and 78rpm. We made a mark for 45rpm but the belt was worn and so it was different every time!


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Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 23 Jun 20 - 05:25 PM

I had a friend used to tune his D string to the hum an IBM tape drive made!


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Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 23 Jun 20 - 05:31 PM

The things we did to get Ďem n tune before electronic tuners were invented! ;-)


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Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Jun 20 - 05:57 PM

ears


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Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: Joe Offer
Date: 23 Jun 20 - 06:00 PM

What's the frequency of alternating current in England, Dave. It's 60 Hz. in the US, so we've very familiar with a 60-cycle hum, a tone almost exactly halfway between A? and B. So, what's your frequency and its tone? Would an A be 44 Hz?

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 23 Jun 20 - 06:04 PM

"I suspect the popular acts at the time influenced the source singers ;-)"

well as I mentioned earlier in a now disappeared post

At 60, Apache is older than most folk revival LPs...


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Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 23 Jun 20 - 06:09 PM

Joe - if I remember correctly, I used to tune to a G off our phone,
if I just picked the handset up and didn't dial anything.

Also my electric shaver hummed a constant note, again G.. or maybe D...???

Too long ago to remember..

It was brilliant when our band got a Vox organ, and we no longer had to tune off
whatever piano we could find at any gig venue...


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Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: GUEST,Roger.
Date: 23 Jun 20 - 06:09 PM

Apache certainly influenced me to take up the gitter, and I'm still struggling.
17/06/1960, my 11th birthday!!
Good to see Hank still going strong at 78.
Good thread- back to sanity!
Roger.


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Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 23 Jun 20 - 06:16 PM

Wasn't the Hoffnung cartoon vacuum cleaner in the key of Bb?
We're on 50hz in the UK.


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Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: GUEST,Guest Anonyme
Date: 24 Jun 20 - 02:15 AM

Marvin is simply the best guitarist there ever was.


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Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 24 Jun 20 - 02:45 AM

Define "best" :-D


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Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: GUEST,Rossey
Date: 24 Jun 20 - 05:59 AM

For guitar anoraks 22 minute analysis of Apache. (I don't play - but can mime, badly).    Coming up 25 years in July since Jerry Lordan died - so in another 45 years, the tune will be a trad. work! The original recording itself is out of EU copyright, having been made pre-1962. Wonderful rhythm guitar by Bruce Welch.

Guitar Teacher reacts The Shadows Apache


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Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: GUEST,Guest Anonyme
Date: 24 Jun 20 - 05:59 AM

I had a poster of Hank in my bedroom he was gorgeous.
However, Hank Marvin has revealed that The Beatles' electric guitar player George Harrison encouraged them to change their approach following the release of Don't Make My Baby Blue.

"He told me how much he loved the single,"Hank Marvin commented.

"'Take my advice,' he said - 'forget about being an instrumental group and follow up on the vocals'."

However, The Shadows did not take this advice - a decision that Hank Marvin said he now regrets.


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Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: andrew e
Date: 24 Jun 20 - 08:24 AM

But they did form Marvin welch and Farrar.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C66HgVOlOYg


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Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Jun 20 - 03:39 AM

Hank Marvin is one of the most over-rated guitarists that ever walked a stage. I'm not saying he wasn't a good guitarist. Indeed, I have heard a fair bit of his playing, and it is clear that the bloke is more than competent. But I cannot accept that he is a great guitarist. Apart from some very ordinary and extremely simplistic guitar songs, Hank Marvin has done absolutely nothing to advance electric guitar technique, or to make me sit back and exclaim "wow!" That's exactly what I expect from a great guitarist.
      Chuck Berry had a far greater influence on rock music than Hank Marvin ever did. His licks can be heard in the early stuff of Clapton, Page, Keith Richards, Pete Townsend, and many others. And Chuck Berry nicked his stuff from the great black blues guitarists!

All Hank Marvin did was take the stuff that the truly great (black) guitarists were playing, slow it down, and add a quirky repetitive dance routine.What Hank had was good simple tunes played well.
   He inspired others to play guitar because the sound was obtainable. You could hum the tune, you could pick it out on one or two strings in ten minutes.
I can remember friends going home from school and playing his records in their lunch hour
He was a good guitarist and had a good ear for a catchy tune. But he developed his one sound and stuck with it.


The Shadows didn't start having hits until 1960 - I believe Apache was the first one. There had been a whole range of 50's rock'n'roll guitarists beforehand who had far more technique and ability.
    This GUEST goes by the name of Dick Miles. -Joe Offer-


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Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: GUEST,Rossey
Date: 25 Jun 20 - 09:01 AM

Isn't that the point? It's pop music.. 'popular', this just started off as a thread about the 60th anniversary of a great, catchy and influential instrumental pop tune. Not about the technical art of the guitarist, analysed to death by guitar anoraks. They were never meant to be rock, or R and b gods. They were initially youths playing catchy themed tunes - though they later veered off into experimental areas. That was the point, the popular perceived simplicity of their work was a factor in people picking up guitars.. as much as many others of the time in the pre-Beatle hit days. Hank is now playing Gypsy Jazz.


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Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 25 Jun 20 - 09:10 AM

I bet that anonymous GUEST was Hank himself having a laugh with us...

I mean, surely no mudcat member would log out just to post that..
Why on earth would he.. errrmmm.. they...???


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Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 25 Jun 20 - 09:27 AM

I think the fact that itís written in intelligible English, and incorporating proper punctuation precludes it from being one particular member notorious for his rudeness and thread-wrecking behaviour, pfr.

But I could hazard a guess at who else it might be, and Iíd probably be right first time...

Or it could just be a non-member passer-by, poking his shirt-stirring stick in. Either way, itís not worth responding to.


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Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 25 Jun 20 - 11:06 AM

Yeah, PFR, the writing is on the wall for all to see. Stay or go? At least he was on topic, dismissive as it was.


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Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 25 Jun 20 - 11:20 AM

Well, for all the thread spoiling moaners stating the obvious
that the Shadows were only an anodyne family entertainment pop group.

I'm now happening enjoying the sunshine listening to my favourite 1960s instrumental guitar group..

Davie Allan and the Arrows..

Most noted for scoring the groovy rocking fuzzbox mayhem soundtracks
of cheap nasty 1960s exploitation biker movies..

The Shadows and the Ventures are the entry drug...


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Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 25 Jun 20 - 11:44 AM

I dictated "happily" but google voice input was obviously vibing too much on the flower power sunshine groove
and decided it was a "Happening"..

fair enough...


ahem...

DAVIE ALLAN + THE ARROWS - "APACHE '65"

still rockin' live in 2009...


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Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 25 Jun 20 - 11:47 AM

..and their tamer reverb drenched surf version back in the 60s...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x7KkYSFCpJs


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Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: GUEST,Rossey
Date: 25 Jun 20 - 01:45 PM

Guest, did say that Hank Marvin stuck with one sound.. this is actually not quite true. Though we have the stereotype signature sound of the Shadows.. they actually introduced one of the first acoustic guitar pieces of its type into the high ends of the UK charts with the simple, but effective 'Guitar Tango'.. and also later used various guitar effects with less success, before moving back into the more MOR market with covers using the old sound.   This is Cliff playing Apache live with three of the Shadows in a spoof... (slightly nervously, with stumbles and dropped notes)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PbYXqPIqHsE


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Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: GUEST,Rossey
Date: 25 Jun 20 - 01:49 PM

Sorry the link didn't work! Cliff being a Shadow.. not totally successful, but nerves no doubt played a part. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PbYXqPIqHsE


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Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 25 Jun 20 - 01:54 PM

I bought a CD earlier this century of Cliff and the Shads live at the ABC..

It was intended for release back in the early 60s,
but shelved at the last moment for 'technical reasons'..

Maybe the Shads were a bit too rockin' and maybe distorted their amps ever so slightly too much
for early 60s EMI sound engineers..

I thought it was a good live album...

But eventually forgot I had it, or which box it is in,
and have not listened to it for too many years...


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Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 25 Jun 20 - 02:17 PM

The Shadows Shadoogie ( live at the ABC Kingston 1962 )


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Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 25 Jun 20 - 06:25 PM

Quite heavy for that time!


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Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: leeneia
Date: 26 Jun 20 - 03:28 PM

More than one player here has said that Apache proved hard to play. I can believe it. Is it that do do-du do do-du do do-du DUH part in the middle? I've been trying it on air guitar, and it takes real finger independence.


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Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: GUEST,bernieandred
Date: 26 Jun 20 - 11:38 PM

There's a great podcast called A History of Rock Music in 500 songs. This weeks episode is about Apache. Very good with lots of details you may not know.
If you're interested in the tune and not a bunch of off-topic squabbling, give the podcast a listen. https://www.500songs.com/


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Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 27 Jun 20 - 01:00 PM

That guest at 12:20pm is Dick Miles again talking drivel on something he knows nothing about.


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Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 27 Jun 20 - 01:05 PM

Gone. And still watching, Dick.


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Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 27 Jun 20 - 01:08 PM

Aha it's disappeared!!

Hank plays gypsy jazz finger busting solo!


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Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 27 Jun 20 - 01:33 PM

Bonz - apologies if this clip has already been posted here..

The Shadows "Apache" live 1961, complete with sloppy lead guitar bum notes..

Hank wasn't himself on that performance, that's for sure...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PbYXqPIqHsE


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Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 27 Jun 20 - 01:53 PM

That's classic!!


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Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: The Sandman
Date: 27 Jun 20 - 02:41 PM

GUEST POST, 12 20 was not me check the computer ips

    That may be correct, but you logged out and posted an anonymous troll message above - and I caught it and marked you as the sender. This is it. If you and Mr. Carroll cannot stop trolling threads at Mudcat, we will stop you. We don't want your complaints and excuses and threats any more. We are done with this. If you want to continue posting at Mudcat, then join in the discussion in a civil manner. Other people are having a good time, and you two keep dumping garbage on us. Stop it. Now.
    -Joe Offer-


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Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: GUEST,Rossey
Date: 27 Jun 20 - 03:29 PM

Hi Punkfolkrocker.. I posted the sloppy 1961 performance a couple of threads above as well. It was just Cliff playing in a spoof.. dropping notes etc. It was all live so no doubt he was a bit nervous. Proof that not everybody can play it well. A shame that Hank never got the honour of being the original guitar player on 'Move It'. No matter what we think of Cliff's later singing work and acquired cheesy image, that is one of the all time seminal British rock n'roll singles. The Beatles did a sloppy version of 'Move it' during the 'Let it Be' Sessions (where almost everything was sloppy!). The Beatles also threw in Apache during their long sets in Hamburg days c1960. (even if they were at times dismissive of the Shadows).


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Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 27 Jun 20 - 03:56 PM

Rossey - sorry, I didn't check back well enough to make sure I wasn't duplicating another post..

I first heard the Cliff live in the studio LP with Move it around 1980,
when I was coming out of punk/ new wave,
and looking back on Brit rock history..

I immediately though it was surprisingly excellent, and needed to rethink my ingrained prejudice
regarding Cliff the smarmy born again god botherer...

The movie "Expresso Bongo" definitely helps...


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Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 27 Jun 20 - 03:58 PM

Try ĎApron Stringsí pfr - another great rocker.


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Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 27 Jun 20 - 04:06 PM

Here ya go... ignore the naff video, itís got sod all to do with the recording.


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Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 27 Jun 20 - 04:50 PM

BWM - I could just have easily called myself prebeatlesbritrocknrollfolkrocker..

I have a seriously extensive CD collection..

It's addictive...!!!


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Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 27 Jun 20 - 05:20 PM

Good man!

My last electric band, which I was in from 1997 to 2005, played nothing but R&R from the years 1957 to 1961. We had the Teddy-Boy suits with drape-coats, bootlace ties, brothel-creepers, the lot. The only thing I didnít have was the quiff and the DA (insufficient raw material!).

ĎMove Ití was on the set list for every gig.


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Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 28 Jun 20 - 04:47 AM

Fantastic! I played a couple of gigs with a rockabilly band in the 1980s but I was told off for bending strings - not something you stop doing easily!!


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Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: fat B****rd
Date: 28 Jun 20 - 06:05 AM

I love "Move It" especially the guitar of Ernie Shear.


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Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 28 Jun 20 - 06:07 AM

Did he play on anything else memorable?


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