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Apache recorded 60 years ago!

Steve Shaw 21 Jun 20 - 06:03 PM
punkfolkrocker 21 Jun 20 - 06:31 PM
Joe Offer 21 Jun 20 - 07:12 PM
punkfolkrocker 21 Jun 20 - 07:50 PM
Jim Carroll 22 Jun 20 - 02:34 AM
Backwoodsman 22 Jun 20 - 02:45 AM
GUEST,Mark 22 Jun 20 - 04:08 AM
Backwoodsman 22 Jun 20 - 04:58 AM
Joe Offer 22 Jun 20 - 05:12 AM
gillymor 22 Jun 20 - 05:21 AM
Jim Carroll 22 Jun 20 - 05:26 AM
GUEST,Jon 22 Jun 20 - 06:02 AM
GUEST,Mark 22 Jun 20 - 06:19 AM
GUEST,Jerry 22 Jun 20 - 07:29 AM
punkfolkrocker 22 Jun 20 - 10:09 AM
punkfolkrocker 22 Jun 20 - 10:20 AM
Tattie Bogle 22 Jun 20 - 10:53 AM
punkfolkrocker 22 Jun 20 - 10:57 AM
Dave the Gnome 22 Jun 20 - 11:03 AM
GUEST,Guest Anonyme 22 Jun 20 - 11:13 AM
Steve Shaw 22 Jun 20 - 11:39 AM
Stilly River Sage 22 Jun 20 - 11:42 AM
GUEST,Tunesmith 22 Jun 20 - 12:31 PM
GUEST,Guest Anonyme 22 Jun 20 - 01:41 PM
punkfolkrocker 22 Jun 20 - 01:49 PM
Backwoodsman 22 Jun 20 - 03:47 PM
Jeri 22 Jun 20 - 03:56 PM
Backwoodsman 22 Jun 20 - 04:03 PM
Steve Shaw 22 Jun 20 - 06:00 PM
Bonzo3legs 22 Jun 20 - 06:11 PM
Dave the Gnome 22 Jun 20 - 06:43 PM
GUEST,Rossey 23 Jun 20 - 05:19 AM
Steve Shaw 23 Jun 20 - 06:22 AM
punkfolkrocker 23 Jun 20 - 06:46 AM
Backwoodsman 23 Jun 20 - 06:58 AM
Vic Smith 23 Jun 20 - 07:17 AM
Bonzo3legs 23 Jun 20 - 10:28 AM
Backwoodsman 23 Jun 20 - 10:51 AM
Stilly River Sage 23 Jun 20 - 11:11 AM
Dave the Gnome 23 Jun 20 - 11:40 AM
Backwoodsman 23 Jun 20 - 12:17 PM
Tattie Bogle 23 Jun 20 - 01:23 PM
Bonzo3legs 23 Jun 20 - 01:29 PM
Stilly River Sage 23 Jun 20 - 02:10 PM
Backwoodsman 23 Jun 20 - 02:18 PM
Dave the Gnome 23 Jun 20 - 03:07 PM
GUEST,Rossey 23 Jun 20 - 03:30 PM
punkfolkrocker 23 Jun 20 - 03:38 PM
Jeri 23 Jun 20 - 03:53 PM
punkfolkrocker 23 Jun 20 - 03:54 PM
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Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Jun 20 - 06:03 PM

Well I'm glad that my Freddie sidetrack struck a chord (which is more than the Dreamers struck...) I'm thinking of a Herman's Hermits diversion... My dad was the manager at Stretford Road Burtons branch and once measured Peter Noone for a suit...

But excuse me...

"You're all badly behaved in this thread, and if you'd taken a look, a bunch of the off-topic squabbling was removed, from several parties. Stop the bickering, the bunch of you, you should be embarrassed by your behavior."

Well I don't know who you think you're talking to, moderator, but I have been very well behaved all through this thread, and I'm not alone. How dare you make such a sweeping statement. I think you should retract and apologise, though, as I think I know which mod you are, you won't, as you never do, and you'll probably delete this. Yes I'm outraged. Cop yourself on, will you.


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Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 21 Jun 20 - 06:31 PM

Trump's shining example of 'sense of fair play' conflict resolution,
when he declared murderous KKK militia and peace loving anti racists
as..

"Just as bad as each other..",

seems to have set a universal good precedent we all should thank him for...

Every one of us good guys must strive harder to be just as bad as the bad guys...??????


Sounds like that could have been the story outline for a 1960s rock opera...


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Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: Joe Offer
Date: 21 Jun 20 - 07:12 PM

There were certain songs, usually instrumentals, that were used to close out AM radio shows in the US at the end of the disc jockey's shift. "Apache" was one one such song. Telstar was another. I swear that the version I heard in the US was punctuated with grunts that were supposed to sound like "Indian braves." Anybody know who did that tacky version?

I added a YouTube link to the first post, but I'll add it here, also. It's the Shadows, complete with go-go dancers. Interesting how the guitarists all half-dance, swaying in unison. Did we really like that stuff when we were young?

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 21 Jun 20 - 07:50 PM

Joe - the Shadows dance was popular then, and still enjoyable now..

Though not necessarily for the same reasons,
in our knowing sophisticated 21st Century post modernist
cool kitsch and exotica appreciating culture...


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Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Jun 20 - 02:34 AM

I wonder if all those who have told be that dead folk singers no longer have a place in today's world, feel the same about long rejected pop musicians
I wouldn't have thought it had much relevance on a site dedicated to
Just a thought it had much relevance on a site supposedly dedicated to "Traditional Music Folklore Collecting and Folklore"
Great thing in life - you never stop learning
Jim


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Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 22 Jun 20 - 02:45 AM

Jim, it would have been a very enjoyable thread for many of us, were it not for the idiotic antics of someone with a reputation for rudeness, SHOUTING, a poor grasp of English,, and an unfeasibly high opinion of himself. If that clown hadn’t started his belligerent horse-shit, none of the squabbling would have happened.

This forum is big enough for discussion on other forms of music, and anyone who isn’t interested in the form being discussed in the thread is perfectly at liberty to scroll on by.

IMHO, of course.


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Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: GUEST,Mark
Date: 22 Jun 20 - 04:08 AM

Regarding "swing", I understand that Hank Marvin is an accomplished gipsy jazz player these days (
Here's an example. ), so at some point he must have acquired some :-)


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Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 22 Jun 20 - 04:58 AM

Wonder if that’s a JLV he’s playing, Mark?


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Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: Joe Offer
Date: 22 Jun 20 - 05:12 AM

So, anyhow, does anybody know about the recording of"Apache" with the grunts? They're almost percussion. I never thought of it before today because I didn't know the name of the piece despite having heard it hundreds of times.


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Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: gillymor
Date: 22 Jun 20 - 05:21 AM

I'm not sure if this is the case with the recording you heard, Joe, but local DJs have been known to "enhance" records they air here in the states.

Jim, a glance at the thread titles in the Music section should indicate that this place hasn't turned into Tiger Beat,...............yet.


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Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Jun 20 - 05:26 AM

Yet, being the operative word
That's what we said about the clubs
Maybe it's ok to talk fanzine from 2 meters away wearing masks !
Jim


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Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 22 Jun 20 - 06:02 AM

Man Of Mystery... I heard that quite a few times earlier in the year as we watched a set of Edgar Wallace mysteries which use that as the theme together with a rotating bust of EW in a misty background. The theme started there with the melody played on flute before moving to guitar lead in later episodes.


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Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: GUEST,Mark
Date: 22 Jun 20 - 06:19 AM

Backwoodsman - I'm not enough of an expert (or any amount of an expert) to say if that's a John Le Voi. In Australia, which is where Hank's based I believe, it's perhaps unlikely.
A comment on the YouTube video led me
here, so it's probably a Rob Aylward.


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Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: GUEST,Jerry
Date: 22 Jun 20 - 07:29 AM

Just thinking. Although much loved by those of us of a certain age, Apache is a patchy tune at best (pun intended) - a simple chord led (almost arpeggiated) melody line in the key of A minor, with the f note sometimes sharpened. Does this make it the first chart hit in the Dorian mode? Moreover, was it also instrumental (sorry) in spawning a legacy of other more adventurous guitar tunes in A minor - Anji, Classical Gas, Judy, Windy and Warm, Tangerine Puppet, etc? It seems all guitar pickers at one time had Am tunes.


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Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 22 Jun 20 - 10:09 AM

This is one single bloody thread in an entire forum
which is trying to celebrate a record of monumental importance in UK, even worldwide, music culture history.

YOU might not have cared much for it, but millions of other folk did and still do.

A vast number of folks who it helped inspire to become life long musicians in ALL genres of music,
cite this record and others by The Shadows as a significant inspiration..

Including many notable folk artists...


Well balanced, well informed and educated music enthusiasts can enjoy this record...

Liking this record does not cause a folk song, or a kitten, to die...

But unwelcome miserable killjoys can bore and antagonise other folk to death...


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Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 22 Jun 20 - 10:20 AM

"explain why a pop musician has a place on a forum about folklore and folk music"

Jim - apart from any reasons of respect and tolerance for diversity,

a simple explanation is mudcat admin do not BAN foklies talking about other forms of music
which bring joy to their lives...

We could guess that over the last 60 years
more amateur musicians started off by playing this tune,
than any trad ballads or jigs...???

Many of these amateurs who now 60 years later are the life blood of folk clubs...


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Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 22 Jun 20 - 10:53 AM

Scrolled on by.......!

As for grunty noises, Joe: the one I remember that had that in it was "Running Bear" by Johnny Preston (1959). I don't remember it on any of the Shadows' tracks or Telstar.


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Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 22 Jun 20 - 10:57 AM

There are probably numerous dodgy cover versions and cash-in parodies of Apache
lost in time..

It's very plausible Joe heard one...


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Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 22 Jun 20 - 11:03 AM

Just found a good version here by The Rockets

Enjoy

PFR - If no-one else was abbout Jim would fight with himself ;-)


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Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: GUEST,Guest Anonyme
Date: 22 Jun 20 - 11:13 AM

Joe Offer: Yer Tis
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ElRIjwFVkoA


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Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Jun 20 - 11:39 AM

I've said this a few times here, but my respect for what we call "pop" music soared after I'd cut 'n' spliced several hundred "pop songs" for our local dance teacher (anyone wanna hear my 3-minute version of American Pie? I promise you can't see the join...) :-) I had to do a lot of very close listening, and I realised that in many cases (not all, but 'twas ever thus...) the composition, arrangements, balance, recording quality and overall production values were often staggeringly good...There was a lot of genuine talent on show too.. I even got to like a good few, and I hadn't listened to any "pop" music since the Beatles broke up...

"Pop," to define a genre (or bunch of genres) of music can be used as a very handy pejorative. "Pop." Daft little word. Bottle of pop. Lollipop. Pop goes the weasel. You don't get that with "jazz", "folk" or "classical." And note that with those three they are not just one thing, just like "pop" isn't just one thing. You can nitpick about classical to say that it started with Bach's son and ended pre-Beethoven, but most people hearing you say that wouldn't know what you were talking about. Music is a huge mystery (said Vladimir Ashkenazy). We should celebrate it and enjoy the fact that its boundaries are irredeemably fuzzy-wuzzy. I don't even think I know what pop music is.


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Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 22 Jun 20 - 11:42 AM

I've just deleted a bunch of off-topic squabbling dovetailed into this thread to do with this subject:

    Today, the 17th of June 2020 marks the 60th anniversary of The Shadows' recording session, which started their own international stardom: on the 17th of June 1960, The Shadows recorded their 4th single (the 2nd under the name "The Shadows") "Apache" / "Quatermasster's Stores".


Perhaps this will serve as a reset button.


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Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 22 Jun 20 - 12:31 PM

Talking about Hank's "sound", I've always thought that Hank must have been influenced by electric Hawaiian guitar players who were still plentiful in the UK in the 1950s.


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Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: GUEST,Guest Anonyme
Date: 22 Jun 20 - 01:41 PM

Apache, Folk Music?


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Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 22 Jun 20 - 01:49 PM

"Apache, Folk Music?"


we'll let you know 200 years from now...


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Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 22 Jun 20 - 03:47 PM

As far as I recall, absolutely nobody on this thread has suggested that ‘Apache’ falls into the genre of ‘Folk-Music’. The only people mentioning folk-music and ‘Apache’ as though they are connected in some way are those who appear to object to ‘Apache’ being discussed at all. Very strange....


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Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: Jeri
Date: 22 Jun 20 - 03:56 PM

The heading is "Unclassified/general music". People complaining about it not being folk music are on the wrong forum. And for the record, when it was started, Mudcat was about blues. One thread about a pop song isn't going to end the world. Might put a big bunch in someone's panties, but that's life.


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Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 22 Jun 20 - 04:03 PM

Amen to that, Jeri.


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Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Jun 20 - 06:00 PM

Well calling Apache a pop song doesn't do it for me at all. There must be thousands of sixties pop songs that are so forgettable that I've forgotten them all. But I can honestly say that if you say "Shads Apache" it triggers an immediate pleasurable earworm in me, and I can equally honestly say that it's been like that with me for about sixty years. Certain tracks are seminal, iconic, or whatever other tiredly pretentious words one could apply, and Apache is right up there. I'll make a list of some others some time. That'll cause a fight...


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Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 22 Jun 20 - 06:11 PM

A few 45s were candidates for playing over and over again - like Kon Tiki by the Shadows, Peter Gunn by Duane Eddy, Son of a Gun by Sandford Clark, Susie Darlin' by Robin Luke, Somethin' Else & My Way by Eddie Cochran, Good Golly Miss Molly by Screaming Lord Sutch & The Savages, many by Buddy Holly, The Train Kept a Rollin' by Johnny Burnette Rock N Roll Trio


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Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 22 Jun 20 - 06:43 PM

Bit before my time, Bonzo, but good music from any era will survive. It was probably 67 before I started taking notice. In later times I discovered the timeless Buddy Holly and many others including The Four Seasons, the Everly brothers and Joe Brown! All eras, genres and cultures have their good and bad music. The good always lasts while the bad falls by the wayside.


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Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: GUEST,Rossey
Date: 23 Jun 20 - 05:19 AM

When Alan Merrill (writer of I Love Rock n' roll) popped off due to CV19; I put a tribute thread on, as others had done so with musicians and singers of all genres. It was also to highlight, how CV19 was affecting musicians. If it is a fixed rule for the community, that musicians, singers, and writers - are to only be put on here if they are of a certain profile, then I will hold to that. It frequently seems to stray into other areas of music, and often you get grey areas as to where some artists and writers belong, as they may have had varied careers playing and recording in different fields. Recordings may be fluid as to where they fit in genres (Does Country Music get banned?).

Anniversaries are generally no big deal in the scheme of things, just an arbitrary imposition.   A load of them will be coming along due to the 60's and 70's being a golden age of music. If Hank, Bruce, or Brian Bennett of the Shadows one day pop off..and other genres separate to strict folk are still allowed, I would hope that a respectful tribute thread would be posted giving their place in the history of music, without unnecessary disparaging comments from people whose taste is out of step with popular music.


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Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Jun 20 - 06:22 AM

Anyway, I like everything except for most j*zz. It all started for me with Hildegard of Bingen... And the older I get the less inclined I am to categorise...


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Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 23 Jun 20 - 06:46 AM

Jim - I am one of the few mudcatters who will still defend you..

But in this thread you are acting as out of order intrusively disruptive
as Dick was,
and now also this anonymous shit stirring Guest [any guesses who...???]...

Mods with Max's authority, are telling you this thread is OK at mudcat.

REPEAT

Mods with Max's authority, are telling you this thread is OK at mudcat.


.. got it...

Please leave it at that...

I along with other mudcatters who'd like to be left alone to enjoythis thread,
understand and feel BWMs increasing justifiable anger with you folks
who are trying to spoil this thread out of your own petty personal resentment..

Please show your mudcat mates proper consideration, and stop invading this thread with peevish negativity...


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Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 23 Jun 20 - 06:58 AM

And back to the topic of the thread...

Hank Marvin Gypsy-Jazzz - ‘Apache’


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Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: Vic Smith
Date: 23 Jun 20 - 07:17 AM

.....Freddie & The Dreamers.....
LITTLE KNOWN FACT
I bought a 200 watt Carlsboro Amp second hand in 1975 for the first barn dance band that I was in and I bought it from Freddie Garrity and, no, it wasn't a dream!


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Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 23 Jun 20 - 10:28 AM

And back to the topic of the thread...

Hank Marvin Gypsy-Jazzz - ‘Apache’

Who recognised Gary Taylor on second guitar - formerly of The Herd and later The Hank Wangford Band?


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Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 23 Jun 20 - 10:51 AM

I wouldn’t have recognised him, Bonz - Peter Frampton and Andy Brown are the onlybfaces I recall from The Herd. The only other person I know who played with Hank Wangford is Reg Meuross, although Reg is better known nowadays as a solo singer/songwriter.

Here’s one of Reg’s goodies...


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Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 23 Jun 20 - 11:11 AM

I'm the one who HAS been weeding this thread, and I'm frankly disappointed and disgusted with the nonsense that Jim and Dick, in particular, have visited upon a music thread that doesn't meet their smell test.

Tough. If you don't know that blues is the roots of rock, then that's your problem. Go away and talk on other threads about topics that interest you. This is a music thread about a sixty year old song. I learned something from it and enjoyed all of the covers once I started down that YouTube rabbit hole.

I just deleted 26 (TODAY ONLY) bickering off topic posts. I've deleted similar numbers in the last couple of days. This may not be a purist lyrics/history thread, but it is a music thread, and it shouldn't need to be down in the BS area.

SRS


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Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 23 Jun 20 - 11:40 AM

Thanks, Stilly.

Here's a rock and roller playing something that may meet with the approval of the traditionalists :-)

Sicilian tarantella


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Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 23 Jun 20 - 12:17 PM

Great stuff from a Yeller-Belly, Dave!


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Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 23 Jun 20 - 01:23 PM

Thanks Stilly: well moderated!


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Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 23 Jun 20 - 01:29 PM

Here's Gary Taylor in The Hank Wangford Band!


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Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 23 Jun 20 - 02:10 PM

Take a look again at that link, Bonzo. It's something that wants to download instead of open. Can you find a different way to share it?


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Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 23 Jun 20 - 02:18 PM

That worried me too, so I didn’t download it.


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Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 23 Jun 20 - 03:07 PM

Punkfolkrocker - Just a thought for you to see an original in action. Joe Brown is still touring. Well, he will be when venues open again I suppose! He does a good show with many recollections of the 50s and 60s. Here are his tour dates.

https://www.ents24.com/uk/tour-dates/joe-brown

I know I keep mentioning him but I'm not on his payroll, honest! I just really enjoyed his show a couple of years back.


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Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: GUEST,Rossey
Date: 23 Jun 20 - 03:30 PM

I met Bruce Welch (and Jet), at a Joe Meek tribute night. I wish I could have thought of something intelligent to say to him.. but I was dumbstruck. I should have asked about his songwriting, or production work for Cliff and Olivia Newton John, but nope. In the other end of the pub was Jet Harris, once the cool Shadow..with the quiff..(when I met him he'd lost that).

Ok the film the 'Young Ones' seems creaky and uncool now.. but one brief scene captures the pre-Beatles instrumental group sound and stage presentation. When they play the Savage, and do the Shadows walk, pointing their guitars in the air..creating screams and a wonderful climax.   Apache was part their creation in a way, as they turned a simple Jerry Lordan ukulele tune into a realised work. And it did influence other players all over the world during that period when instrumentals were making the charts. The Shadows themselves did go into other forms of music, and Hank has been working with Gypsy Jazz for a while. Respect due for their influence and place in UK music history, even if you don't get it! I'll shut up now..


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Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 23 Jun 20 - 03:38 PM

DtG - I saw Joe Brown at a west country theater about 10 years ago.. Excellent show..

Also around the same time, the Searchers - top class nostalgia, and still then a good band..

Didn't get Lonnie Donnegan tickets, then sadly it was too late to ever see him at all...


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Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: Jeri
Date: 23 Jun 20 - 03:53 PM

Yes, thanks Stilly. I've seen too much "what is folk", AND the usual combatants to want to deal with it.

I've heard Gaughan sing "Ruby Tuesday", and all the Tin Pan Alley and music hall hits-of-the-day, now done as folk to not think the horse thing is something people do when they don't want ANY new songs to get into the "tradition". That said, I don't think Apache will ever be traditional...not unless someone records it on an acoustic guitar. (Yeahbut guitars technically aren't traditional, but so what?)

The point is that, in between fights about everything that anyone could possibly disagree with, and actual folk music, an occasional thread about pop isn't a big deal. No punk, though - that would really be too much. ;)

Oddly, I'd heard Apache before, but the name didn't ring a bell. Had to go YouTube it.


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Subject: RE: Apache recorded 60 years ago!
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 23 Jun 20 - 03:54 PM

.. and we all know [yes we do...???] how significant an influence
the Searchers were on the Byrds,
and as a consequence, the entire future of western civilization folk rock...


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