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Origins: A-Rovin' - Stan Hugill versions

DigiTrad:
A-ROVIN' (1)
A-ROVIN' (2)
GENTLY JOHNNY MY JINGALO


Related threads:
Origins:A-Rovin/Maid from Amsterdam/Amsterdam Maid (57)
(origins) Origins: Gently Johnny My Jingalo (17)
Lyr Req: I put me hands upon her calves (28)
A'Rovin, again (3)


Shogun 07 May 20 - 01:45 AM
Joe Offer 07 May 20 - 02:32 AM
Joe Offer 07 May 20 - 02:36 AM
Joe Offer 07 May 20 - 02:51 AM
Joe Offer 07 May 20 - 02:55 AM
Shogun 07 May 20 - 03:02 AM
Joe Offer 07 May 20 - 03:06 AM
Shogun 07 May 20 - 03:10 AM
Joe Offer 07 May 20 - 03:26 AM
Shogun 07 May 20 - 03:35 AM
Joe Offer 07 May 20 - 04:07 AM
Gibb Sahib 07 May 20 - 04:07 AM
Shogun 07 May 20 - 04:20 AM
Joe Offer 07 May 20 - 05:37 AM
Shogun 07 May 20 - 06:38 AM
GUEST,henryp 08 May 20 - 07:47 AM
Shogun 08 May 20 - 11:28 AM
SPB-Cooperator 08 May 20 - 01:12 PM
Shogun 08 May 20 - 01:17 PM
Shogun 08 May 20 - 02:28 PM
Stilly River Sage 09 May 20 - 05:32 PM
Gibb Sahib 09 May 20 - 06:29 PM
SPB-Cooperator 09 May 20 - 07:32 PM
SPB-Cooperator 09 May 20 - 07:37 PM
Gibb Sahib 09 May 20 - 10:30 PM
Shogun 10 May 20 - 08:48 AM
Shogun 10 May 20 - 09:32 AM
Gibb Sahib 10 May 20 - 07:45 PM
Shogun 10 May 20 - 11:45 PM
Gibb Sahib 11 May 20 - 05:39 AM
Shogun 11 May 20 - 06:11 AM
Shogun 11 May 20 - 06:21 AM
Joe Offer 22 Jun 20 - 03:30 PM
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Subject: ADD: A-Rovin' - Stan Hugill version A
From: Shogun
Date: 07 May 20 - 01:45 AM

Hi All, I want to perform all possible versions of the "A-Rovin" song, and I want to ask you for help. In my edition of "Shanties from the Seven Seas", Stan Hugill's' is only 2 versions but Stan named second version (d), which tends me to a thing is somewhere version (b) and (c), if anyone has access to the previous edition of this book an check for me?
Also, any other pieces of information about this song sung by Stan Hugill will be great.


Here version (A)

A-ROVIN'
(alternate titles: Amsterdam or The Maid of Amsterdam)

In Amsterdam there lived a maid
Mark well what I do say!
In Amsterdam there lived a maid
And she was mistress of her trade
We'll go no more a-rovin' with you fair maid

CHORUS
A-rovin', a-rovin', since rovin's bin me ru-i-in
We'll go no more a-rovin' with you fair maid

2. One night I crept from my abode.
Ch. Mark well what I do say!
One night I crept from my abode
To meet this fair maid down the road.
Ch. We'll go no more a-rovin' with you, fair maid.
Full Chorus
A-rov-in', a-rovin', Since rovin's bin me ru-i-in,
We'll go no more a-rovin', With you, fair maid.

3. I met this fair maid after dark,
An' took her to her favourite park.

4. I took this fair maid for a walk,
An' we had such a lovin' talk.

5. I put me arm around her waist,
Sez she, 'Young man, yer in great haste!'

6. I put me hand upon her knee,
Sez she, 'Young man, yer rather free!'

7. I put me hand upon her thigh,
Sez she, 'Young man, yer rather high!'

8. I towed her to the Maiden's Breast,
From south the wind veered wes'sou'west [sou'sou'west].

9. An' the eyes in her head turned east an' west,
And her thoughts wuz as deep as an ol' sea-chest.

10. We had a drink—of grub a snatch,
We sent two bottles down the hatch.

11. Her dainty arms wuz white as milk,
Her lovely hair wus soft as silk.

12. Her heart wuz poundin' like a drum,
Her lips wuz red as any plum.

13. We laid down on a grassy patch,
An' I felt such a ruddy ass.

14. She pushed me over on me back,
She laughed so hard her lips did crack.

15. She swore that she'd be true to me,
But spent me pay-day fast and free.

16. In three weeks' time I wuz badly bent,
Then off to sea I sadly went.

17. In a bloodboat Yank bound round Cape Horn,
Me boots an' clothes wuz all in pawn.

18. Bound round Cape Stiff through ice an' snow,
An' up the coast to Callyo.

19. An' then back to the Liverpool Docks,
Saltpetre stowed in our boots an' socks.

20. Now when I got back home from sea,
A soger had her on his knee.

Source: Shanties from the Seven Seas, collected by Stan Hugill, Routledge & Kegan Paul, Ltd., 1961), pp 45-52.


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Subject: RE: Origins: A-Rovin' - Stan Hugill versions
From: Joe Offer
Date: 07 May 20 - 02:32 AM

This is a tough one, since there are so many "rovin'" songs. The Traditional Ballad Index may be of some help:

A-Rovin'

DESCRIPTION: In this cautionary tale, a sailor meets an Amsterdam maid, fondles portions of her body progressively, has sex with her, and catches the pox. She leaves him after he has spent all his money.
AUTHOR: unknown
EARLIEST DATE: 1887 (College Songs)
KEYWORDS: bawdy disease sailor warning whore
FOUND IN: Britain(England,Scotland(Aber)) US(MA,NE,So,SW) Australia Canada(Mar)
REFERENCES (24 citations):
GreigDuncan7 1479, "A-Rovin', A-Rovin'" (1 fragment, 1 tune)
Walton/Grimm/Murdock, pp. 36-38, "A-Roving" (1 composite text, 1 tune)
Colcord, pp. 87-88, "A-Roving" (1 text, 1 tune)
Harlow, pp. 49-52, "A-Roving" (2 texts, 2 tunes)
Hugill, pp. 48-52, 101, "A-Roving" (6 texts plus 3 fragments, 4 tunes; the 5th text is "Go Rowing," a 1916 Norwegian adaptation by Henrik Wergelands taken from Brochmann's "Opsang Fra Seilskibstiden." p.101 is a version of "A Long Time Ago") [AbrEd pp. 46-48]
Hugill-SongsSea, p. 66, "A-Rovin'" (1 text, 1 tune)
Kinsey, pp. 48-50, "A-Roving" (1 text, 1 tune)
Pottie/Ellis, pp. 178-179, "A-roving" (1 text, 1 tune)
Sharp-EFC, XXV, pp. 28-29, "A-Roving" (1 text, 1 tune)
Cray, pp. 64-67, "A-Rovin'" (1 text, 1 tune)
Randolph-Legman I, pp. 124-125, "The Maid of Amsterdam" (1 text, 1 tune)
Doerflinger, pp. 56-58, "A-Roving" (2 texts, 2 tunes)
Bone, pp. 99-103, "Amsterdam" (1 censored text, 1 tune)
Shay-SeaSongs, pp. 80-81, "Maid of Amsterdam (A-Roving)" (1 text, 1 tune)
Linscott, pp. 125-130, "Amsterdam" [1 fragment, 1 tune, censored by the informant)
Meredith/Covell/Brown, p. 96, "A-roving" (1 text, 1 tune)
Finger, pp. 156-157, "The Amsterdam Maid" (1 text, 1 tune)
Shay-Barroom, pp. 76-77, "Maid of Amsterdam" (1 text, 1 tune)
JHJohnson, p. 51, "The Amsterdam Maid" (1 text)
Fireside, p. 168. "A-Roving" (1 text, 1 tune)
Silber-FSWB, p. 89, "A-Roving" (1 text)
DT, AROVIN1* AROVIN2*
ADDITIONAL: Captain John Robinson, "Songs of the Chantey Man," a series published July-August 1917 in the periodical _The Bellman_ (Minneapolis, MN, 1906-1919). "A'Rovin" is in Part 1, 7/14/1917.
Henry Randall Waite, _College Songs: A Collection of New and Popular Songs of the American Colleges_, new and enlarged edition, Oliver Ditson & Co., 1887, p. 80, "A-Roving!" (1 text, 1 tune, probably cleaned up as the girl merely causes the man to spend all his money) (part 3, p. 74 in the 1876 edition)

Roud #649
RECORDINGS:
Richard Maitland, "A-Roving" (AFS, 1939; on LC26)
Stanley Slade & chorus: "A'Roving" (on Lomax41, LomaxCD1741)

CROSS-REFERENCES:
cf. "The Fire Ship" (plot) and references there
cf. "All Under the New Mown Hay"
cf. "Yo Ho, Yo Ho" (theme, lyrics)
cf. "Tickle My Toe" (theme)
cf. "The Girl in Portland Street" (plot, theme)
cf. "Baltimore (Up She Goes)" (theme)
cf. "Ye Wanton Young Women" (theme, chorus lines)
SAME TUNE:
In Lowestoft a boat was laid (Kinsey, p. 165)
NOTES [325 words]: This is a partial formula song in that the sailor begins at the knee, moves up to the thigh, and then to the "snatch." See "Yo Ho, Yo Ho" ("I Put My Hand") for extended treatment of this formula. - EC
Some similar lines are found in Thomas Heywood's "The Rape of Lucrece" (c. 1607), and Shay traces this piece back to that time (Masefield also accepts, and may have originated, this identification), but Doerflinger states that they are not the same song. Hugill also considers any relationship to be most unlikely.
The version collected by Meredith from Wally Marshall has an unusual ending; when the singer places his hand upon the girl's breast, she breaks wind, seemingly causing him to abandon the venture.
In College Songs (1887), there is a song "Rig-a-jig," with verses "As I was walking down the street, Heigho (x4), A pretty girl I chanced to meet...." "Said I to her, 'What is your trade?' ... Said she to me, 'I'm a weaver's maid.'" I suspect dependence, but the song ends after two verses, so it is not clear how it proceeded. Or, rather, I suspect it IS clear but the song has been cleaned up by excision.
Hugill says that some versions end with the sailor aboard a "saltpeter" ship bound around Cape Horn for Chile. A saltpeter ship, not a guano ship? Raw nitrates were taken from the Chilean desert, and served much the same purpose as guano (i.e. to produce nitrates), but raw saltpeter wasn't as "noxious" as the guano. On the other hand, saltpeter was used to try to control sexual urges and diseases (ineffectively, but what matters is that they thought it worked). For background on the nitrates issue, see "Tommy's Gone to Hilo"; also "Chamber Lye." - RBW
Roud assigns #7181 to the GreigDuncan7 fragment, which changes the sex of the object, viz., "I'll gang nae mair a rovin' wi' you, young man." The fragment of the chorus gives no idea of the rest of the song so I have chosen to lump this text with the common "A-Rovin'." - BS
Last updated in version 5.1
File: EM064

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The Ballad Index Copyright 2020 by Robert B. Waltz and David G. Engle.


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Subject: RE: Origins: A-Rovin' - Stan Hugill versions
From: Joe Offer
Date: 07 May 20 - 02:36 AM

You'll note that the Ballad Index cites to Hugill books, Shanties from the Seven Seas (1961)[ (6 texts plus 3 fragments, 4 tunes]; and Songs of the Sea (McGraw-Hill, 1977)[1 text, 1 tune].

Now, can we find the books?

-Joe-


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Subject: ADD: A-Rovin' - Stan Hugill version B
From: Joe Offer
Date: 07 May 20 - 02:51 AM

A-ROVIN' (Hugill Version B)

In Amsterdam there lived a maid
An'she was mistress of her trade
We'll go no more a-rovin' with you fair maid

CHORUS
A-rovin', a-rovin', since rovin's bin me overthrow
We'll go no more a-rovin' with you fair maid


Source: Shanties from the Seven Seas, collected by Stan Hugill, Routledge & Kegan Paul, Ltd., 1961), pp 45-52.

And that's it. Disappointing, huh?


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Subject: ADD: A-Rovin' - Stan Hugill version C
From: Joe Offer
Date: 07 May 20 - 02:55 AM

Most versions given in print have been camouflaged beyond all recognition, and others are far too sentimental for Sailor John to have sung them. The following version, which I picked up in Port Adelaide, South Australia, has a genuine ring to it. This too omits the ‘Mark well’, etc., refrain, but uses the full tune.



A-ROVIN' (Hugill Version c)

1. In Amsterdam there lived a maid,
An’ she wuz tall an’ fair.
Her eyes wuz blue, her lips wuz red,
For Salt John’s money, O, she had -a flair.
I’ll go no more a-rovin’, etc.

2. But when it came to leavin’ her,
An’ I told her I must go,
She cried a bit, she cursed a bit,
An’ then she cried, ‘Here’s Holy Joe!’

3. The anchor’s up, our sails are set,
An’ we are homeward bound.
Another gal I never shall see,
Until we reach ol’ Plymouth Sound.

Two verses which are difficult to bowdlerize have been omitted!
The tune of the following version, given only by Terry and Sharp, is probably the older one—it has the jerkiness of all shanties which were sung at the earlier brake-pumps and lever windlasses.


Source: Shanties from the Seven Seas, collected by Stan Hugill, Routledge & Kegan Paul, Ltd., 1961), pp 45-52.


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Subject: RE: Origins: A-Rovin' - Stan Hugill versions
From: Shogun
Date: 07 May 20 - 03:02 AM

Joe Offer, I'm interested in only Hugills versions, I saw bawdy one I will be delighted to record it, Version B - not disappoint me at all, just think what a difference from version A? is that different notations? to see the original page it will give me light, but I'm not sure it's a chance to get it.

This what I'm really after: Shanties from the Seven Seas (1961)[ (6 texts plus 3 fragments, 4 tunes]

and also this: and Songs of the Sea (McGraw-Hill, 1977)[1 text, 1 tune].

If any chance to photo pages I will appreciate it, I'm on Facebook under "Jerzy Brzezinski" or "Szanty Szoguna - Shoguns' Sea Shanties" - so if you can message me? or post materials here.
Thanks a lot.

Also i want be narrowed to this Hugills version, because i dont want to take to many cases a time, his biggest book is naturaly first on the queue :)

    She's a-comin', Jerzy. Wait until I finish posting all this. Send me a an email personal message with your current email address, so I can send you a scan. I'm posting from Hugill's Shanties from the Seven Seas. -joe@mudcat.org


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Subject: ADD: A-Rovin' - Stan Hugill version D
From: Joe Offer
Date: 07 May 20 - 03:06 AM

A-ROVIN' (Hugill Version d)

In Amsterdam there lived a maid
Bless you young women!
In Amsterdam there lived a maid
Now mind what I do say!
In Amsterdam there lived a maid
An' she was mistress of her trade
I'll go no more a-rovin' with you fair maid

CHORUS
A-rovin', a-rovin', since rovin's bin me ru-i-in
I'll go no more a-rovin' with you fair maid

2. I took this fair maid for a walk.
Ch. Bless you, young women!
I took this fair maid for a walk.
Ch. Now mind what I do say!
I took this fair maid for a walk,
An’ we had such a lovin’ talk.
Ch. I’ll go no more, etc.

3. An’ didn’t I tell her stories true,
Of the gold we found in Timbuctoo.

4. But when she’d spent me bloomin’ screw,
She cut her cable an’ vanished too.

Other stanzas with a genuine ring are:

I met her walking on the Strand,
Dressed up for to beat the band.

In Number One New England Square,
Me Nancy Dawson she lives there.

This last ten months I’ve bin to sea,
Ah’ hell, this gal looked good to me.

Versions which give

    I kissed that maid and went away,
    Said she, ‘Young man, why don’t ye stay?’

contrive to bring the shanty to a close without carrying out the true amours of Jack! Other final verses are:

    But when she blowed my twelve months pay,
    That gal she vanished clean away.

    But when I stood upon the pier,
    I found she wuz not there to cheer,
    She’d gone an’ spliced a bombardier.

A rather peculiar stanza is given by a seaman called W. Bolton, of
Southport, in the Journal of the Folk Song Society:
    Oh, if my child should chance to die.
    Mark well what I do say.
    Oh, if my child should chance to die
    The bells should ring so sweetly.
    I’ll go no more, etc.

This is probably a fragment of an early shore version.

Source: Shanties from the Seven Seas, collected by Stan Hugill, Routledge & Kegan Paul, Ltd., 1961), pp 45-52.


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Subject: RE: Origins: A-Rovin' - Stan Hugill versions
From: Shogun
Date: 07 May 20 - 03:10 AM

Joe Offer, thanks for version (D), in my copy of the book I have are 2 versions: (a) and (d), so I have those two.


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Subject: ADD: Go Rowing- Stan Hugill versions
From: Joe Offer
Date: 07 May 20 - 03:26 AM

In a fine old Norwegian shanty book called Opsang fra Seilskibstiden —‘Shanties from the Sailing-Ship Days’— D. H. Brochmann gives, as as a few stanzas of the English version, several in Norwegian. This Norwegian version was composed by a Norwegian poet, Henrik Wergelands, a fine character who took many of the obscene shanties of his time and rewrote them, building his themes mainly around some famous ship. In each case he rewrote enough stanzas for a long heave or hoist; in this version of A-rovin’ —Shanty for the Christiania Packet —he made sixteen verses. Most of his versions are patriotic and nostalgic. After giving the first few stanzas of the usual English version, the text in Opsang explains: ‘. . . these first three verses only are decent. It is now preferable to continue with Wergeland’s version’!

GO ROWING
(Capstan Song for the Christiania Packet)

1. Nu muntres op saa mangt et sind,
Ch. Maerk vel hvad jeg vil si!
Nu muntres op saa mangt et sind,
Paketten er flu halet ind.
Ch. I’ll go no more a-rowing with you for mate.
Full Chorus. Go rowing, go rowing, etc.

2. Nu stiger hjertet i vor barm,
Med styrke løfter vi vor arm.

1. Within our hearts now glad we’ll be.
Mark well what I will say!
Within our hearts now glad we’ll be,
The packet now hauls in from sea.
I’ll go no more a-rowing,
With you for mate, etc.

2. Our hearts now swell within our chests.
Oh, strongly now the bars we’ll breast.’

(Translation by B. Streiffert)

Source: Shanties from the Seven Seas, collected by Stan Hugill, Routledge & Kegan Paul, Ltd., 1961), pp 45-52.


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Subject: RE: Origins: A-Rovin' - Stan Hugill versions
From: Shogun
Date: 07 May 20 - 03:35 AM

Joe Offer, Norvegian version is really intriguing, Is this what is printed on his book? oh, I wish to see the book...
    Scan of the book is on the way. Check your Personal Messages (click) and answer my message so I know I've got the correct email address for you.
    -Joe-


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Subject: RE: Origins: A-Rovin' - Stan Hugill versions
From: Joe Offer
Date: 07 May 20 - 04:07 AM

I think I gave away my newer Hugill book, Songs of the Sea (McGraw-Hill, 1977). It seemed to be just an abridgement of the earlier "Shanties" book. Are the two different?

Does "Shanties" have anything more than what I posted above?

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: Origins: A-Rovin' - Stan Hugill versions
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 07 May 20 - 04:07 AM

At one time or another I learned all of the songs in Hugill (1961). Not sure at what point I stopped doing them verbatim. Also, a number of the musical scores are wrong, so I corrected them or else speculated what they were "supposed" to be.

Pt. 1 of Shanties from the 7 Seas


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Subject: RE: Origins: A-Rovin' - Stan Hugill versions
From: Shogun
Date: 07 May 20 - 04:20 AM

Gibb Sahib, is this YouTube channel "hultonclint" is that you? If yes you did the biggest impression on my Sea Shanty singing activities, this job is spectacular and epic!


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Subject: RE: Origins: A-Rovin' - Stan Hugill versions
From: Joe Offer
Date: 07 May 20 - 05:37 AM

I found the 1977 Hugill book. As far as I can see in this section, it's just an abridged version of what's in the 1961 book. So I guess we have all that Hugill wrote on this song.


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Subject: RE: Origins: A-Rovin' - Stan Hugill versions
From: Shogun
Date: 07 May 20 - 06:38 AM

Joe Offer, thanks a lot, now for me is recording time, I'm sure version A will be ready on this week.


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Subject: RE: Origins: A-Rovin' - Stan Hugill versions
From: GUEST,henryp
Date: 08 May 20 - 07:47 AM

15. I'LL GO NO MORE A-ROVING. Tune noted by A. G. Gilchrist. Con moto. Sung by Mr. W. Bolton, Southport Jan., 1906.

Oh, if my child should chance to die, Mark well what I do say,
Oh, if my child should chance to die, The bells should ring so sweet - a – ly,
And I'll go no more a-roving with you, fair maid.
or a - mong the pret - ty maids.

Mr. Bolton could only recall the verse above given, but said the song was about a young girl who had been deceived. There is a curious coincidence between this verse and the words of the children's game, *' A dis, a dis, a green grass," in Chambers' Popular Rhymes.
The tune is a version of "The Maid of Amsterdam" (see " A-roving," in Tozer's Sailors' Songs for the more usual form) — a well-known chanty derived from a ballad which Mr. John Masefield traces back to the time of Elizabeth. A. G. G.
JOURNAL OF THE FOLK-SONG SOCIETY VOLUME II 1905-1906


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Subject: RE: Origins: A-Rovin' - Stan Hugill versions
From: Shogun
Date: 08 May 20 - 11:28 AM

Hi All
So my biggest issue now is this version:

A-ROVIN' (Hugill Version B)

[Anderson, the Scottish carpenter already mentioned, said that in
his ship - one of Vickers' big four-masters from Liverpool - the
usual method of singing this shanty was as follows.



In Amsterdam there lived a maid
An'she was mistress of her trade
We'll go no more a-rovin' with you fair maid

CHORUS
A-rovin', a-rovin', since rovin's bin me overthrow
We'll go no more a-rovin' with you fair maid

Note the omission of the refrain "Mark well what I do say!" ]

[] - oryginal text from first edition

Question 1: is that mean omission of first 2 lines of verses, happen allways? for example:



In Amsterdam there lived a maid
And she was mistress of her trade
We'll go no more a-rovin' with you fair maid

CHORUS
A-rovin', a-rovin', since rovin's bin me overthrow
We'll go no more a-rovin' with you fair maid

2.
One night I crept from my abode
To meet this fair maid down the road.
Ch. We'll go no more a-rovin' with you, fair maid.
Full Chorus
A-rovin', a-rovin', since rovin's bin me overthrow
We'll go no more a-rovin', With you, fair maid.

and so on?


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Subject: RE: Origins: A-Rovin' - Stan Hugill versions
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 08 May 20 - 01:12 PM

In the C version, the first chorus line is replaced by an extra line of verse.


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Subject: RE: Origins: A-Rovin' - Stan Hugill versions
From: Shogun
Date: 08 May 20 - 01:17 PM

Hi SPB-Cooperator

Thanks for the hint for version C.
But actually I am asking about version B.


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Subject: RE: Origins: A-Rovin' - Stan Hugill versions
From: Shogun
Date: 08 May 20 - 02:28 PM

If Anyone is interested in I want to kindly invite you to see my record on my YouTube channel, this is the record of version A.
A-Roving version (A)

If you have any comments on how I can do improvements on my shantying, or anything can help keep this and future record close as possible to original, it will be great.

And of course please try to help me with a question about version (B), described above.


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Subject: RE: Origins: A-Rovin' - Stan Hugill versions
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 09 May 20 - 05:32 PM

Jerzy, have you tried singing that one at different speeds? The clip of the book you're using mentions the speed varying according to the task, and he thought it might have originally been sung a lot slower. I've usually heard the song at a typical singing speed, but since you're looking into the origins, what do you think about the different tasks that might have been performed?


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Subject: RE: Origins: A-Rovin' - Stan Hugill versions
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 09 May 20 - 06:29 PM

Shogun,

re: Hugill's "Version B"

Compare to "Johnny Come Down to Hilo".

1. They begin with the "chanty couplet"—the lyrically variable section of chanties, yet which retains the same metric length in most songs of the genre. The archetype is: "Was you every in Mobile Bay?; Screwing cotton for a dollar a day?"

Version B -
In Amsterdam there lived a maid
And she was mistress of her trade

JCDTH -
There was a man in Tennessee
He had a banjo on his knee

2. Next comes a refrain that fills the same amount of time as the couplet

Version B -
We'll go no more a-rovin' with / you fair maid

JCDTH -
Johnny come down to hilo / poor old man

3. Then comes the grand chorus

Version B -
A-rovin', a-rovin', / since rovin's bin me overthrow
We'll go no more a-rovin' with / you fair maid

JCDTH -
Wake her, shake her / wake that girl with the blue dress on
Johnny come down to hilo / poor old man


These form match. One song could be laid on top of one another. The melodies and the lyrics can be exchanged.

Moreover, when we "squint our eyes" when we look at it, we see the same patterning. Sing "YOU FAIR MAID" at the end of A-Rovin'. Then sing "POOR OLD MAN" at the end of JCDTH. Also, "A-rovin, A-rovin" and "Wake her, shake her" match up nicely.

So, you can think of JCDTH when you approach this Version B and you'll get it!


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Subject: RE: Origins: A-Rovin' - Stan Hugill versions
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 09 May 20 - 07:32 PM

Hugill hints that this may be the way Anderson, his informant, started the shanty. Hugill has gone on record that shanties would often start with an introductory half-stanza - particularly notable on variants of Lowlands. We can only speculate how the fragment progressed, ie if it followed the (a) version with the first refrain. This would make it unusual as having three lines in the verses - there are other examples. Problem is forgetting the arrangement everyone knows. So, unless Bronwyn has access to correspondence between Hugill and Anderson we have to treat it for what iot is, a fragment. So, the only option really is to take the A version and take out the first chorus line and repeat verse line, so 2nd verse:

One night I crept from my abode
To meet this fair maid down the road
We'll go no more a-roving
With you fair maid.


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Subject: RE: Origins: A-Rovin' - Stan Hugill versions
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 09 May 20 - 07:37 PM

I would add, but this is just speculation, whether the version would be more appropriate as a break pump rather than a downton pump. That would be down to whether it is possible to research into the deck plan of the Vickers' fleet. MAybe Liverpool Maritime Museum may have some info on that.


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Subject: RE: Origins: A-Rovin' - Stan Hugill versions
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 09 May 20 - 10:30 PM

SPC-Cooperator,

I don't see anything wrong with Version B. It accords with a standard-length chanty form. Hugill gives the melody. What information is missing?

It's the 'A' version that adds an extra piece that, I would suggest, makes it unusual—even if that method has been handed down as more familiar. Now, See Hugill Version D, which adds TWO extra pieces to the start. "A-Rovin" familiar/ Version A is out of step with the vast vast majority of chanties. That may be because it didn't quite belong to the genre's core. Yet the Version B brings it into alignment with the genre.

I haven't seen any evidence that "shanties would often start with an introductory half-stanza." Often? What besides some printings of "Lowlands" do that? (Besides, that is 3/4 of the stanza!) I mean, you could put faith in believing Hugill experienced that "often" happening, without evidence, but I prefer to look at all the other evidence and take it as one of those random things Hugill just wrote. As such not convinced of that, I see no reason to use it to explain this "Version B." And besides, Version B does not begin with a half stanza. It begins PROPERLY at the start of the couplet.


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Subject: RE: Origins: A-Rovin' - Stan Hugill versions
From: Shogun
Date: 10 May 20 - 08:48 AM

Hi Stilly River Sage
Is Great Point again speed, I will record it Again in proper speed.


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Subject: RE: Origins: A-Rovin' - Stan Hugill versions
From: Shogun
Date: 10 May 20 - 09:32 AM

Ok Everybody,
Here some more entertaining, is anyone know movie or performance with the proper speed of Downton Pump Work?
And that because in 2020 probably nobody thinks of it, how in
real-life looks like work on pumps.

So please share links to resources.


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Subject: RE: Origins: A-Rovin' - Stan Hugill versions
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 10 May 20 - 07:45 PM

Shogun,

Perhaps this video will add some data.

https://youtu.be/2Ta9F1q_3Gs


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Subject: RE: Origins: A-Rovin' - Stan Hugill versions
From: Shogun
Date: 10 May 20 - 11:45 PM

Gibb Sahib, yes it gives me a lot of light, it is bilage-pump,
Stan Hugill mentioned downton-pump, but I did not see different in shape and size much so work on both probably is similar.


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Subject: RE: Origins: A-Rovin' - Stan Hugill versions
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 11 May 20 - 05:39 AM

Shogun,

All the pumps are bilge pumps.

That one is, I believe, close enough to any "Downton" pump. Downton is the name of the inventor of the pump of that type. Others would have made "improvements," I think, while the name "Downton" was remembered as the original name of that style of pump.

The important distinction is the method of operation, not whether or not the pump is exactly the same as Downton's invention. The method is to turn a wheel.

This can be distinguished from previous methods of operation, including the type of pump that has "hand brakes" on each side of the pump. Hugill is making reference to this when he says "old-fashioned levers" (1961, pf. 45). See this:

https://www.nps.gov/safr/learn/historyculture/images/dodgson_688px_1.jpg?maxwidt

So, the idea is that the rhythm/movement is different when one is using "hand brakes" or when when is using a wheel (Downton style).

The continuous round-and-round action of the wheel releases the singer from some of the strictures of chanty form that were necessary for the strictly timed actions of hauling halyards and pumping the brake windlass. It's possible that, for this reason, we see a wider range of song forms (i.e. including those not conforming to the usual chanty forms) ascribed to work at such pumps. That is, one could easily sing songs in the chanty forms at the pumps, but one could also sing other songs, too.


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Subject: RE: Origins: A-Rovin' - Stan Hugill versions
From: Shogun
Date: 11 May 20 - 06:11 AM

Gibb Sahib
Thanks for another great article, I thought Downtone a bilge is the same operation way.
Thanks for a great sketch of the pump as well.
I will ask you gently about the opinion on version (B) of A-Rovin, what exactly means this omission of the "Mark well what I do say", you don't use any instruments so you cannot just wait silently and start singing again, so how will be looks like full example verse with choruses?


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Subject: RE: Origins: A-Rovin' - Stan Hugill versions
From: Shogun
Date: 11 May 20 - 06:21 AM

Gibb Sahib - ignore post after:
"I will ask you gently about the opinion on version (B)...

I just didn't seen you respond for my PM :)


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Subject: RE: Origins: A-Rovin' - Stan Hugill versions
From: Joe Offer
Date: 22 Jun 20 - 03:30 PM

Shogun posted these versions on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kTieGtgq1Io&list=PLoZsxkVOo1s9-HI5_q47JF4EP6Ftc0EfK


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