mudcat.org: BS: Is the Mudcat American?
Lyrics & Knowledge Personal Pages Record Shop Auction Links Radio & Media Kids Membership Help
The Mudcat Cafeawe

Post to this Thread - Sort Descending - Printer Friendly - Home


BS: Is the Mudcat American?

Dave the Gnome 24 Apr 20 - 03:49 AM
Jim Carroll 24 Apr 20 - 04:02 AM
Dave the Gnome 24 Apr 20 - 04:17 AM
Barb'ry 24 Apr 20 - 04:20 AM
Steve Shaw 24 Apr 20 - 04:27 AM
Dave the Gnome 24 Apr 20 - 04:41 AM
Jim McLean 24 Apr 20 - 05:07 AM
Jim Carroll 24 Apr 20 - 05:30 AM
Rain Dog 24 Apr 20 - 05:39 AM
Steve Shaw 24 Apr 20 - 06:03 AM
Rain Dog 24 Apr 20 - 06:15 AM
Jim Carroll 24 Apr 20 - 06:43 AM
Donuel 24 Apr 20 - 06:51 AM
peteglasgow 24 Apr 20 - 06:59 AM
John MacKenzie 24 Apr 20 - 07:26 AM
Donuel 24 Apr 20 - 07:45 AM
Dave the Gnome 24 Apr 20 - 07:58 AM
Backwoodsman 24 Apr 20 - 08:03 AM
Mrrzy 24 Apr 20 - 08:10 AM
Jim Carroll 24 Apr 20 - 08:15 AM
Jim McLean 24 Apr 20 - 08:52 AM
Jim Carroll 24 Apr 20 - 09:07 AM
Barb'ry 24 Apr 20 - 09:13 AM
Backwoodsman 24 Apr 20 - 09:15 AM
Raggytash 24 Apr 20 - 09:26 AM
gillymor 24 Apr 20 - 09:31 AM
Jeri 24 Apr 20 - 09:35 AM
Rain Dog 24 Apr 20 - 09:37 AM
Iains 24 Apr 20 - 09:38 AM
Jeri 24 Apr 20 - 09:40 AM
Steve Shaw 24 Apr 20 - 09:43 AM
Steve Shaw 24 Apr 20 - 09:45 AM
Donuel 24 Apr 20 - 09:49 AM
Jim McLean 24 Apr 20 - 10:01 AM
Steve Shaw 24 Apr 20 - 10:03 AM
Mossback 24 Apr 20 - 10:19 AM
Iains 24 Apr 20 - 10:32 AM
Stilly River Sage 24 Apr 20 - 10:45 AM
Donuel 24 Apr 20 - 11:04 AM
Bill D 24 Apr 20 - 11:08 AM
Steve Shaw 24 Apr 20 - 11:27 AM
Backwoodsman 24 Apr 20 - 11:31 AM
Jim Carroll 24 Apr 20 - 11:34 AM
Bill D 24 Apr 20 - 11:45 AM
Bill D 24 Apr 20 - 11:56 AM
Bill D 24 Apr 20 - 12:07 PM
Backwoodsman 24 Apr 20 - 12:14 PM
Bill D 24 Apr 20 - 12:32 PM
keberoxu 24 Apr 20 - 12:46 PM
Jim Carroll 24 Apr 20 - 12:48 PM
Donuel 24 Apr 20 - 12:56 PM
Mrrzy 24 Apr 20 - 01:08 PM
punkfolkrocker 24 Apr 20 - 01:18 PM
Dave the Gnome 24 Apr 20 - 01:20 PM
Donuel 24 Apr 20 - 01:24 PM
Jeri 24 Apr 20 - 01:29 PM
Jim Carroll 24 Apr 20 - 01:32 PM
Dave the Gnome 24 Apr 20 - 01:33 PM
Iains 24 Apr 20 - 01:37 PM
Jim Carroll 24 Apr 20 - 01:47 PM
Bill D 24 Apr 20 - 01:55 PM
Donuel 24 Apr 20 - 02:02 PM
punkfolkrocker 24 Apr 20 - 02:05 PM
Dave the Gnome 24 Apr 20 - 02:08 PM
Jim Carroll 24 Apr 20 - 02:28 PM
Donuel 24 Apr 20 - 02:30 PM
punkfolkrocker 24 Apr 20 - 02:42 PM
Dave the Gnome 24 Apr 20 - 02:49 PM
Jim Carroll 24 Apr 20 - 02:53 PM
gillymor 24 Apr 20 - 03:00 PM
Donuel 24 Apr 20 - 03:53 PM
punkfolkrocker 24 Apr 20 - 04:48 PM
Bill D 24 Apr 20 - 08:01 PM
Donuel 24 Apr 20 - 08:22 PM
Bill D 24 Apr 20 - 09:46 PM
Dave the Gnome 25 Apr 20 - 04:17 AM
Jim Carroll 25 Apr 20 - 04:55 AM
Dave the Gnome 25 Apr 20 - 05:20 AM
Dave the Gnome 25 Apr 20 - 05:23 AM
Joe Offer 25 Apr 20 - 05:46 AM
Backwoodsman 25 Apr 20 - 05:55 AM
Joe Offer 25 Apr 20 - 06:01 AM
Steve Shaw 25 Apr 20 - 06:01 AM
Steve Shaw 25 Apr 20 - 06:05 AM
Jim Carroll 25 Apr 20 - 06:09 AM
Jim Carroll 25 Apr 20 - 06:20 AM
Backwoodsman 25 Apr 20 - 06:38 AM
Doug Chadwick 25 Apr 20 - 06:43 AM
Joe Offer 25 Apr 20 - 06:45 AM
peteglasgow 25 Apr 20 - 07:02 AM
Jim Carroll 25 Apr 20 - 07:11 AM
Joe Offer 25 Apr 20 - 07:13 AM
Steve Shaw 25 Apr 20 - 07:16 AM
Jim Carroll 25 Apr 20 - 07:17 AM
peteglasgow 25 Apr 20 - 07:18 AM
Steve Shaw 25 Apr 20 - 07:22 AM
Joe Offer 25 Apr 20 - 07:24 AM
Steve Shaw 25 Apr 20 - 07:39 AM
Jim Carroll 25 Apr 20 - 07:40 AM
Jim Carroll 25 Apr 20 - 07:40 AM
peteglasgow 25 Apr 20 - 07:53 AM
Jim Carroll 25 Apr 20 - 08:21 AM
Dave the Gnome 25 Apr 20 - 08:27 AM
Steve Shaw 25 Apr 20 - 08:40 AM
Steve Shaw 25 Apr 20 - 08:50 AM
Backwoodsman 25 Apr 20 - 08:59 AM
Jim Carroll 25 Apr 20 - 09:01 AM
Steve Shaw 25 Apr 20 - 09:06 AM
peteglasgow 25 Apr 20 - 09:10 AM
Jim Carroll 25 Apr 20 - 10:10 AM
Donuel 25 Apr 20 - 10:17 AM
Jim Carroll 25 Apr 20 - 10:49 AM
Dave the Gnome 25 Apr 20 - 10:53 AM
Iains 25 Apr 20 - 11:09 AM
Lyrics & Knowledge Search [Advanced]
DT  Forum
Sort (Forum) by:relevance date
DT Lyrics:









Subject: BS: Is the Mudcat American?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 24 Apr 20 - 03:49 AM

On one of the UK politics threads someone said "has it ever dawned on you that you're holding your UK-centric brawl in a USA-based forum? Why? What ever made you think that was an acceptable thing for you to do?"

Is this true? I don't want to get into politics for obvious reasons but the fact that some Americans seem to see us UKers as interlopers using their forum stunned me. Surely lots of the Folk music that we discuss is from the UK. There are, I think, as many UK members as US ones. The very nature of the internet crosses any such boundries.

If it is true that this is a USA-centric forum, do we need to segregate UK based music discussions, which can get just as heated as politics, as well?

What do you all think? Contributions welcome from any nation :-)


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Mudcat American?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Apr 20 - 04:02 AM

Yes- it is American though Ironically, most people who pst here appear to be British with a few Irish thrown in
Unfortunately, what is allowed on this forum doesn't always reflect the views of it's membership, which is why this thread probably won't last
Jim


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Mudcat American?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 24 Apr 20 - 04:17 AM

What makes it American then, Jim? It is hosted in the US but surely such boundaries are irrelevant when it comes you the internet.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Mudcat American?
From: Barb'ry
Date: 24 Apr 20 - 04:20 AM

It is definitely an American site, started by Max. I don't think the Americans think of us as interlopers but it is my long held and much discussed belief that, although we speak the same language, our cultural backgrounds make our postings (and I'm talking from a UK viewpoint) different and sometimes less acceptable. I think the Europeans are mainly more combative and willing to spar and argue more, and more heatedly, if that's a word. I know there are many Americans who are like this and similarly many examples of calm and considered Brits, so I'm generalising.

I think you only have to think of American kids (this is spreading worldwide, I know) being told 'Good job', even if it's not - something that, to most Brits of the older generation, is very strange (good, positive, ideal - but strange). I think we were brought up differently in the main. Sarcasm, irony, and criticism, particularly in the North, often went as praise. Also, perhaps it is our pub culture where loud and sometimes obnoxious arguments went on into the small hours.

I'm not saying that what the Brits did or do is good or bad, it just is and as it is an American forum, we use their rules.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Mudcat American?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Apr 20 - 04:27 AM

It was set up by an American who has currently anointed three American moderators and one Brit, but the founder appears to be very hands-off, very non-interventionist. He's let it take its own wings. In many ways that's admirable. It does give the mods considerable latitude, and yesterday that led to the unfortunate and clumsy comment (complete with expletive) that's provoked this thread. If you want to know whether Mudcat is American in flavour, all you have to do is glance down the list of topics above the line on any one day. No alien seeing that would ever think, blimey, how American is that!


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Mudcat American?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 24 Apr 20 - 04:41 AM

I don't see the rules as American, Barb'ry. They are just rules, well guidelines really, that anyone would have applied. My point is more about differentiating between nationalities. If the comment would have been more like "a nasty brawl on a polite forum", I would have just left it. If I have been nasty, I don't mind being called out for it. I do object to being demonised for not being born in the USA though:-(


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Mudcat American?
From: Jim McLean
Date: 24 Apr 20 - 05:07 AM

For me the appeal of this forum is its broad world wide coverage and one usually knows from whence a contributor comes.
Barb'ry says ".... Brits of the older generation........Sarcasm, irony, and criticism particularly in the North.." Could I ask, for clarity's sake, the North of where?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Mudcat American?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Apr 20 - 05:30 AM

"What makes it American then, Jim? "
Three American moderators and an American owner for a start - for me, that shows up big-time on threads like the UK politics one where moderation shows litle sign of the subject being understood "you Brits" often being the giveaway
That doesn't mean we understand American politics any better - I doubt if even the Yanks manage that !!!
The internet is like the language, a commonality that divides us
Jim


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Mudcat American?
From: Rain Dog
Date: 24 Apr 20 - 05:39 AM

We are all guests here.

I see pubs have been mentioned. I don't know what pubs some of you go into but I imagine that if certain people carried on in pubs in the same way they behave here, they would soon find themselves barred.

All of us can go off and start up our own 'discussion' groups on the net if we want to. I don't know how many of you have already done that.

I see someone mentioned the north. Please don't get me started on northerners.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Mudcat American?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Apr 20 - 06:03 AM

Dave, Raggytash and I are northerners. See you in the pub.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Mudcat American?
From: Rain Dog
Date: 24 Apr 20 - 06:15 AM

Like I said, don't get me started on northerners.

I live on the south coast and one of the worse things anyone can call you is a northerner. It used to be that if you lived outside the town you might well be labelled a northerner. But then came the internet.

Certain people (extremists) then said you can only be a southerner if you lived within a certain distance from the shoreline. Over time and due to many heated exchanges on the net, that distance has gradually got shorter and shorter, so we end up with the situation that people who come from families who have lived in this town for generations are now labelled northerners. That is not easy to take.

Then there are the even more extreme extremists who gather at the shoreline at low tide, just so they can harangue the other inhabitants of the town, calling them northerners. Most of us think of them as a right bunch of canutes. Just be thankful that none of them have made it to the mudcat yet.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Mudcat American?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Apr 20 - 06:43 AM

Shows the confusions that can arise
I live in Ireland (I'm a Brit B and B - birthplace not accommodation)
Northerners are a different kettle of dingbats altogether over here
Mind you, it was the British Parliament which created the divisions in both places (Gawd bless Lloyd George and Mad Maggie, may they both rot....)
Jim


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Mudcat American?
From: Donuel
Date: 24 Apr 20 - 06:51 AM

Mudcat is global and about folk music.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Mudcat American?
From: peteglasgow
Date: 24 Apr 20 - 06:59 AM

it had never occurred to me to care about (though i'm interested to know) whether a poster on here was canadian, american or from scotland or elesewhere. though it is striking and sad that we don't have many (any?) posters not from the uk or north america. With respect to some recent 'controversies ' on here of late there are some of us here who will have grown up in our formative post hippy/punk days with the phrase 'no platform for racists or fascists' (or maybe 'what would joe strummer do?') - it is easy to get us annoyed on these topics. Now , we have kids in 4 european countries all with friends/partners from all over - and to not take a stand against that corossive nonsense would be despicable. (is racism such a toxic issue in the states?) I'm happy to consider myself a citizen of the world - or europe - or even just scotland. i think we do worry about nationalities and borders far too much. it allows our would be leaders to play the oldest trick in their nasty book - that of divide and rule.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Mudcat American?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 24 Apr 20 - 07:26 AM

It is very American in its moderation. Things that would be immediately deleted on a UK site, are allowed to run, sometimes seemingly unchecked, for ages. (Martin Gibson)
The blind adherence to freedom of speech as enshrined in the US constitution, is overdone. What many seem to forget is that freedom of speech does not include the freedom to be gratuitously nasty and insulting. If more of the nasty remarks were removed ASAP, it would alter the tone of many discussions on here, for the better.
Yes it's American in origin, and outlook. That in itself isn't a bad thing per se, but there is a lack of understanding on both sides as to what is acceptable, or amusing, or neither.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Mudcat American?
From: Donuel
Date: 24 Apr 20 - 07:45 AM

My posts are exclusively acceptable, amusing or neither. :^/
They are biased coming from my being a Univerity brat.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Mudcat American?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 24 Apr 20 - 07:58 AM

I agree with the point about bad behaviour and pubs but don't follow the northern bit. Sorry. However, there is bad behaviour across the board. The first two people I recall being kicked out were Clinton Hammond and Martin Gibson, both from West of the pond. The next two I remember were Teribus and Akenaton, from East of the pond. To make an issue of some combatants being British seems, to me, wrong somehow. Probably just me. I am willing to be shown the error of my ways:-)


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Mudcat American?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 24 Apr 20 - 08:03 AM

”Certain people (extremists) then said you can only be a southerner if you lived within a certain distance from the shoreline. Over time and due to many heated exchanges on the net, that distance has gradually got shorter and shorter, so we end up with the situation that people who come from families who have lived in this town for generations are now labelled northerners. That is not easy to take.“

God lord! And to think I thought I live in The Backwoods! Makes my corner of Leafy Lincolnshire sound like the epitome of cosmopolitan living.

Think I’ll change my Mudcat ID from ‘Backwoodsman’ to ‘Cosmo’! ;-)


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Mudcat American?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 24 Apr 20 - 08:10 AM

Me murrican.
Max murrican.
Site global.
UK politics, like murrican ones, global in effect and consequences.
Most posters UK rather than murrican in my experience.
Most posters cares global.
Provincial bozos need not read threads about places they think don't matter.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Mudcat American?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Apr 20 - 08:15 AM

"I agree with the point about bad behaviour and pubs "
Not sure the comparison is valid
In argument in a pub never, in my experience, leads to the pub being emptied, guvnors are far more sensible than that as they realise it only takes getting rid of the main cause of the trouble
Mind you, if anybody accused "Northerners", "southerners", "Blacks" North or South of the river" people.... of being the main cases of the problem, the govnor whola have to order new furniture every week
"Look well into thyself", as Marcus Aureleas was once heard to remark

"Things that would be immediately deleted on a UK site, are allowed to run,"
Can't speak of the US, but as far as I can tell, I have never known a site where topic close as regularly as this one - would be interested to know of one
Jim


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Mudcat American?
From: Jim McLean
Date: 24 Apr 20 - 08:52 AM

But are N(n))ortherners from North Britain or Northern England? Folk who call them self "northerners" are English or British? It's getting difficult to know if people are talking about England or Britain. The media uses the term "the country" when it means England and also sometimes means Britain. I wish "northerners" would be explicit and tell us they mean from the North of England.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Mudcat American?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Apr 20 - 09:07 AM

"North of England."
Unfortunately, to some southerners that starts at Mill Mill and for Parliamentarians, Regent's Park (coz that's where the posh houses run out)
Jim


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Mudcat American?
From: Barb'ry
Date: 24 Apr 20 - 09:13 AM

Sorry, I should have said northern England, although my Scottish and Irish relatives are more than capable of fearsome arguments!
As far as the pub arguments are concerned, maybe I'm wrong in that or maybe I just went to the wrong pubs in my youth!


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Mudcat American?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 24 Apr 20 - 09:15 AM

When I talk about ‘the country‘ I mean Great Britain. When I talk about ‘northerners’, I mean the north of England. If I talk about people from further north than England, I refer to them as ‘Scots’, ‘Scottish’, or Scotsmen/women’.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Mudcat American?
From: Raggytash
Date: 24 Apr 20 - 09:26 AM

Them Southerners get out of the bath to 'ave a pee. Soft buggers. They can't stand a bit of froth on their beer either. Soft buggers. They put the letter R in the word castle and the word bath. Soft buggers.

As me ould granny used to say "there's nowt wrong wi' out whats gradely o'er t' sump so longs as there's tripe in pickling'"


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Mudcat American?
From: gillymor
Date: 24 Apr 20 - 09:31 AM

Donuel tried to open up an American politics thread and it was hastily closed. What's up with that?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Mudcat American?
From: Jeri
Date: 24 Apr 20 - 09:35 AM

There used to people here from all over, and I loved it. Germany, New Zealand, Canada, France, Australia, Denmark, China, Japan, and I'm probably missing some.

They mostly aren't here now.

I've never minded people from one specific country posting here. What I dislike is when a mob of them post as if there were no one else in the world, because it makes others leave. Or at least, they move into the shadows and lurk, and only seem to come out when somebody dies. I miss all those folks.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Mudcat American?
From: Rain Dog
Date: 24 Apr 20 - 09:37 AM

No sparklers used in dispensing our beer.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Mudcat American?
From: Iains
Date: 24 Apr 20 - 09:38 AM

Everyone knows that the north starts north of the Watford Gap. According to the Guardian this divide dates back to Viking times.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Mudcat American?
From: Jeri
Date: 24 Apr 20 - 09:40 AM

In other words, DtG, do you know about the Ugly American? An American in another country is loud, brash, and thinks he's so much better than other people?
Yeah, that's how I see some of you. Not all, but even the reasonable people are starting to join in with the bullies.

It hasn't always been this way, but just now, it seems you don't come for the friendship, you come here for the fight.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Mudcat American?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Apr 20 - 09:43 AM

I completely agree with John Mackenzie. Untrammelled "free speech" is a bad thing, and no-one should be frightened of shutting someone up who is being gratuitously obnoxious. I know I keep harping on about it, but The Session (as far as I know) has one moderator who does not suffer fools gladly, he won't let you argue or negotiate with him (don't I know it) and his word is as final as final can be. At one time it was rather like it is here now, but Jeremy didn't half sort it out. Arguably, it's a less feisty place as a result, but it's his gig and I can see precisely why he did what he did in his big clean-up a few years ago. Dick Gaughan's now-defunct forum was a decent place to be. It had a few characters who you could see would have liked to have been obnoxious, but the one moderator, Molly, was a woman you dared not cross (yet she was friendly and cheery and witty too). It's not fair to give Iains the free rein he has here, then keep bollocking the rest of us for not wanting to put up with it. The starting point is that he insults us. So the comparison with pubs falls down straight away. His behaviour wouldn't be tolerated for five minutes even in the seediest pubs I've known (and I've known a few). A firm and silent hand on the delete button for a few weeks, no answering back allowed, would fix him. If we saw that happening it would calm the rest of us down too. And the mods would end up with a lot less work to do. Try it and see. But who am I...


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Mudcat American?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Apr 20 - 09:45 AM

You're at it again. No-one at the moment except for Iains comes here for a fight. Although in the last couple of days it does seem that you do.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Mudcat American?
From: Donuel
Date: 24 Apr 20 - 09:49 AM

I have called this whole locale bigotry thing a tempest in a teapot.

In six months the scarcity of food and hyper inflation amid the pandemic will be the rational survival topic.

I am not a prig but some 'Pub' UK posters sound like they start drinking before posting. Aftdffr ashrte time foes vy hsinds endurhjnd dekr oir od coxtro;


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Mudcat American?
From: Jim McLean
Date: 24 Apr 20 - 10:01 AM

Back woodsman, when you say you are a "northerner" but if you said "this country" then there's the dichotomy. How would anyone know where you are talking about?
To square the circle we have to assume that when someone says they are "northerners" or from the "North" they mean "of England" but when they say"this country" they mean Great Britain"..... !
Walter Scott sometimes signed himself NB meaning North Britain so he was very clear about his Union credentials.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Mudcat American?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Apr 20 - 10:03 AM

Easy fallback that, Donuel, but it's an accusation best avoided. It's three in the afternoon here now, I'm stone-cold sober and have just come in from my permitted bike ride and I challenge you to detect differences between my mid-afternoon posts and late evening ones. If I'm going to have a drink, it's never before 7 PM. You will note I'm sure that it's an accusation that Iains makes. Don't descend to that level. Over to you...


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Mudcat American?
From: Mossback
Date: 24 Apr 20 - 10:19 AM

There used to people here from all over, and I loved it... They mostly aren't here now.

Jeri, there used to be people of color here too. Ever wonder why THEY'RE gone?

Ever consider that the people whose loss you bemoan left because of institutional failure to control trolls of the Iains variety?

You're at it again [Jeri]. No-one at the moment except for Iains comes here for a fight. Although in the last couple of days it does seem that you do.

Amen, Steve.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Mudcat American?
From: Iains
Date: 24 Apr 20 - 10:32 AM

I think the mods are the sole arbiters here. If Mr Shaw has a problem with that (and he most demonstrably has) perhaps he should leave and find a forum more willing to bend to his will The mods are intelligent people, they make their own decisions.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Mudcat American?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 24 Apr 20 - 10:45 AM

This has all the earmarks of a thread that will disappear one of these days. #JustSoYouKnow

There is the "above the line" music area that is expansive and global and where political fighting is culled from threads; threads can discuss political music but inserting unrelated political opinion and fighting is not acceptable.

Below the line is where much of the trouble happens. Below the line posts started years ago when too much nonsense was happening in the site in general and it became possible to filter out the BS from the Music topics. All of this is the design of the private American owner of Mudcat who likes to let people talk, but shouting "fire" in a crowded theater is not part of that. And the pete and repeat fights that occur again and again, those get on the last nerve of the unpaid moderators who work on the site, the moderators find those unacceptable.

Those of you who clamor to have trolls removed because they don't share your political opinions, why not pretend they're your national leaders and just ignore the nonsense and get on with life, like you do now in the real world? Just skip past the posts you know you'll disagree with and carry on.

So yes, Mudcat is American. British politics are pretty inscrutable from this side of the pond and the repeated squabbling about stuff that is meaningless to most of the moderators is not received well.

Share your love of music, keep looking for those obscure lyrics and tunes, and share recipes and pet stories. We'd all do well with a moratorium of the UK politics for a while. Just sayin'.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Mudcat American?
From: Donuel
Date: 24 Apr 20 - 11:04 AM

The BS section just got a dose of Immodium.
Stay safe and feel better soon.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Mudcat American?
From: Bill D
Date: 24 Apr 20 - 11:08 AM

What she said... ☝


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Mudcat American?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Apr 20 - 11:27 AM

No, Bill, not what she said:

"Those of you who clamor to have trolls removed because they don't share your political opinions..."

Not one person here wants anyone removed because of their political opinions. That's a Joe saying, and it simply isn't true. We want trolls removed (or to stop being trolls) because they are gratuitously offensive, utterly intolerant and needlessly provocative. I doubt whether you, Bill, Joe, Jeri, Joe, Donuel or a dozen others share my political opinions. But you haven't heard me calling for them to be removed.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Mudcat American?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 24 Apr 20 - 11:31 AM

What he said ^^^^


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Mudcat American?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Apr 20 - 11:34 AM

"Those of you who clamor to have trolls removed because they don't share your political opinions, "
I'm sorry Stilly but this a lie now too often repeated, that simply isn't true and unfortunately, has been invented by a moderator and now taken up by all of them
nobody has ever asked any to be removed for their beliefs but because of their persistent insulting
It happens that that one person happens to be of the right persuasion is immaterial - he behaves as he does that's what he chooses to do
I have little doubt that this thread will disappear, but in case it does I will circulate it to those who have posted to it in the hope that it can be nipped in the bud once and for all

We have been told by a moderator that we are forbidden to discuss moderation policy because you have no way of defending yourself - you have and use the power to close threads and some of you have taken to insulting and talking down to members (those to whom you are supposed to ve working for) as badly as the troll
You have fiefroofed yourselves from criticism in the way no other forum organiser has (in my experience)

I have little doubt that this thread will disappear, but in case this message does, I will circulate it to those who have posted to it in the hope that it can be nipped in the bud once and for all
Sadly
Jim


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Mudcat American?
From: Bill D
Date: 24 Apr 20 - 11:45 AM

A few years ago, there were a number of Brits who came to the FSGW Getaway as part of a singing group. Several of them came on their own, and were wonderful additions to both the music and the camaraderie.

One of my very good friends is an expat who is now an American citizen... but has many stories about his younger days in England.

On the whole, my own life and understanding of both music and my own **extensive** English heritage has been enhanced by the long list of Brits, Scots and Irish who have been a part of this site for over 20 years.
It IS the case that cultural differences often show up in the flavor & intensity of political .... ummm... 'discussions' and language. I even see it in various British comedy TV shows we get... and I often have to resort to closed-caption to get some of the language and references.

In Max's attempt to have a site that is as open and 'free' as possible, there are inevitable conflicts and disputes about 'where to draw the line' when remarks and attitudes get personal and/or excessively heated.

   I know personally... as in RT meetings and long chats, Dick Greenhaus, Susan of DT, Max, all of the mods but SRS.. and still have developed a close contact with even her. They ALL good people and are trying... but the old line about "herding cats" applies in spades.. and "herding Mudcats" is perhaps even more fraught with awkwardness.

   There is **NO** way to do any sort of moderation without debates about the difference between 'reasonable moderation' and 'overdone censorship'. It seems to be "Now MY ox is being gored!"

An "American site?" only in some sort of legal sense. This is the rarest sort of sites... world-wide in scope,privately run, long lasting, **mostly** uncensored... and with millions of posts over 20+ years still available.

I am 81 next month. If this damned virus leaves me alone, I expect to be following Mudcat for a few more years....

I sure hope nothing...internal or external... occurs to interfere with it.

Ya' all take care....


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Mudcat American?
From: Bill D
Date: 24 Apr 20 - 11:56 AM

I see there has been 'splitting of hairs' while I typed.

Whether or not there has been "clamoring for removal" or just "control" of certain posts & poster(s).. it all amounts to differences of opinion. And who can figure out how to settle that kind of debate?
It is opinion...opinion about opinion and opinion about opinion3.

Now it is "herding cats"3

Sheesh...


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Mudcat American?
From: Bill D
Date: 24 Apr 20 - 12:07 PM

(I once had a cartoon where a guy was sitting at the computer with his wife looking at him with a worried expression. He is saying, "But I can't go to bed yet... there's something wrong on the Internet!")


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Mudcat American?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 24 Apr 20 - 12:14 PM

Well, as I keep trying to tell Steve, Jim, pfr, etc., the way to deal with someone whose purpose here is to provoke, insult, and foment flame-wars, is to ignore them. By so doing, their purpose is frustrated (they lose, you win) and they are left with a choice - debate and discuss in a civilised manner, or their provocative, insulting, flame-baiting behaviour highlights itself (again, they lose, you win).

None are so blind as they who will not see.

BillD, SRS, Jeri - it’s sweet f**k all to do with differences of opinion, and everything to do with provocation, insults, and flaming. Get your heads around that. Nigel Parsons and Bonzo Three Legs are diametrically opposed to Steve, Jim etc. politically, but no-one asks for their removal because Nigel, despite his childish nit-picking, is always polite and courteous, and Bonzo posts his nonsense with a smile on its face.

Once again - None are so blind as they who will not see.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Mudcat American?
From: Bill D
Date: 24 Apr 20 - 12:32 PM

" the way to deal with someone whose purpose here is to provoke, insult, and foment flame-wars, is to ignore them. "

Right..

"it’s sweet f**k all to do with differences of opinion, "

sadly, not right. That in itself IS an opinion. You disagree with my opinion about opinions.

Please tell us how to resolve this.... oh, wait... you just did... ignore.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Mudcat American?
From: keberoxu
Date: 24 Apr 20 - 12:46 PM

Is the Mudcat territorial?
Was the Mudcat territorial from its beginning?
If the Mudcat is/was other than territorial at some point,
how was it different then
from the way it is now?

If the Mudcat is territorial now,
is it territorial in its entirety,
or are some aspects of the Mudcat other than territorial,
and some aspects more territorial than not?

Just my opinion:
When I see forum members telling you-know-who
how to do their jobs, warning bells go off.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Mudcat American?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Apr 20 - 12:48 PM

"None are so blind as they who will not see."
I have attempted to explain why I have reservations about this approach
I would much rather be talked out of it rather than having the same thing repeated over and over again
What you are suggesting is to leave them in peace to do what they do unmolested
Far from driving them away, they are now being supported by the moderators by being made the victims of our political prejudice - a step further back than when we started
A situatin invented by my favourite AMERICAN AUTHOR
Jim


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Mudcat American?
From: Donuel
Date: 24 Apr 20 - 12:56 PM

When faced with the dilemma of allowing people to democratically speak
the framers of the US Constitution made split-a bi cameral house and a President to be a 'decider and chief'.

With no powers assigned, song theads are the house, the more limited BS section is the senate and mods are the president. There are protections, centures and impeachments etc.
Whoever is the supream judge, more power to them.

This comparison is weak and accidental but decidedly American.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Mudcat American?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 24 Apr 20 - 01:08 PM

Why not just not read a thread you don't want to read?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Mudcat American?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 24 Apr 20 - 01:18 PM

I've not read any of this yet..
too busy with the stress of caring for my old mum remotely by telephone...

But late last night I was relaxing watching old pre WW2 newsreels
about what were then amazing modern technological achievements
of cross Atlantic aircraft connections..

The quaint old phrase

"Anglo-American Cordiality", and faded grainy black and white filmed formal handshakes

made me smile...


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Mudcat American?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 24 Apr 20 - 01:20 PM

Jeri, In other words, DtG, do you know about the Ugly American?

I dont, Jeri. I grew up with the attitude that Nignogs rape white women and Pakis eat cat food. I have had enough of stereotyping to last many lifetimes and when I see it, I will call it out. I found your remark disparaging people from the UK distasteful but maybe that is just me.

Sadly, SRS's comment that this thread will probably vanish seems likely to happen unless you all stop knocking Mudcat modetation. Ok, Jeri may be a mod but her remark was not made as a mod. Just an everyday Mudcatter. Please stop bashing moderation policy and stick to the topic.

Thanks.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Mudcat American?
From: Donuel
Date: 24 Apr 20 - 01:24 PM

Another quaint old phrase "America's melting pot society".


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Mudcat American?
From: Jeri
Date: 24 Apr 20 - 01:29 PM

You want a trip? Go up to Quick Links, select Messages by Date, and have a look at how the place was say, ten years ago. Compare it to today's posts.

It's not about nationality, it's about what people choose to do while they're here. The fact that the "fight club" is 5 or o British males probably is just an accident. Who happened to roll in here.

And who rolled out.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Mudcat American?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Apr 20 - 01:32 PM

"Why not just not read a thread you don't want to read?"
Life's not like that
Some of us start these threads and are interested in what they cover - along comes a troll so we walk away from it ?
"Now the biting makes sense" as my favourite chew is fond of saying

I really don't know how to get around the fact that some of the mods regard us as inferiors and "children"
I've always been under the impression that the collective knowledge on this site could fill libraries - I've certainly Taken a fair amount of new knowledge from it - maybe I'm just starry eyed
Jim


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Mudcat American?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 24 Apr 20 - 01:33 PM

The fact that the "fight club" is 5 or o British males

If so, it is surely easy to avoid. I think you will find though that some American women get involved :-)


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Mudcat American?
From: Iains
Date: 24 Apr 20 - 01:37 PM

I did not realize how prevalent selective amnesia is on the mudcat BS section, especially on threads political. Anyone not of a leftward persuasion can be called any number things but should the compliment be returned it those it is aimed that thave a group hug and hissy fit and label it insulting, trolling racism and any other epithet they can dream up. Simultaneously they claim to be entirely innocent of even a teensy wheenzy bit of provocation. They do it so frequently they have lost the ability to understand they are doing it. For example on this thread:
Northerners are a different kettle of dingbats altogether over here
dingbat - a stupid or eccentric person., delusions or feelings of unease, particularly those induced by delirium tremens.,
North in this case can only mean the entire province of Northern Ireland.
Such gratuitous insults towards the entire population can only inflame what is an extremely tenuous peace.process. Why such needless behavior, there was absolutely no justification for it.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Mudcat American?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Apr 20 - 01:47 PM

"a stupid or eccentric person."
No - it's a mixed metaphor (idiots dont come in kettles) made lightheartedly and not to you - it never realised that the term had a definition
As I consider those living in Northern Ireland Irish anyway I would not dream of insulting the Irish people generally - sectarian bigots maybe
Do not make something from nothing as an act of revenge
Jim Carroll


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Mudcat American?
From: Bill D
Date: 24 Apr 20 - 01:55 PM

""Why not just not read a thread you don't want to read?"
Life's not like that
Some of us start these threads and are interested in what they cover - along comes a troll so we walk away from it ?"

It seems some people are just not 'wired' to walk away... hence my comment about the cartoon saying " "But I can't go to bed yet... there's something wrong on the Internet!") "

As long as Backwoodsman's suggestion about ignoring is..umm... ignored, the problem is literally unsolveable except by closing the site OR banning everyone who disagrees with anyone else. Nice set of options, hmm?

I used to debate religion vs. science with you-know-who. No one won. I debated guns... same result. I debated astrology... same result. Politics is the same. Everyone with an opinion wishes to defend their opinion and at some point, someone moves to an opinion about the character or intelligence of their opponent- and off we go.

I have **ignored** the astrology, religion and gun debates for several years now, and my typing finger(s) appreciate the break! And USA politics is beyond a minefield now... in many ways, so is UK politics.

? "The answer, my friend, is blowin' in the wind.."?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Mudcat American?
From: Donuel
Date: 24 Apr 20 - 02:02 PM

The sun has retuned and returned with posts like Bill's.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Mudcat American?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 24 Apr 20 - 02:05 PM

I still haven't had time to read this thread.. but I can guess how it's going...

If America has a history of experience corralling problematic folks into reservations,
to be left to their own devices, looking after their own affairs
with minimal outside interference..

Why isn't it as obviously easy to apply the same approach to the one permitted
British politics thread..

You set it up for us,
you kindly provided our own Brit reservation mod to keep us in order..

So what's so difficult about US mods [and random disruptive antagonistic taunters] staying out of it,
and ignoring it's existence,
if the contents are so annoying for you to read...???

Let's all keep our lives as stress free as possible...

I suggest that calmly, in a very friendly spirit of Anglo-American Cordiality...


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Mudcat American?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 24 Apr 20 - 02:08 PM

The ants are my friends?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Mudcat American?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Apr 20 - 02:28 PM

"And USA politics is beyond a minefield now.."
As id America's situation with guns - they've obviously missed your input Bill
Jim


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Mudcat American?
From: Donuel
Date: 24 Apr 20 - 02:30 PM

pfr you did not mean to but you said it is bad to go back to the past but its good to have a reservation to go back to.
But that is reality, its mixed. This will never be resolved in your mind since the past is never past. In fact it still hasn't past.

(confusing enough for you?)

As for reading, few people do.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Mudcat American?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 24 Apr 20 - 02:42 PM

Donny - ?????????????????????????????????????????????!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

btw.. I'm a lifelong fan of western movies..
They are absolutely my favourite film genre...


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Mudcat American?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 24 Apr 20 - 02:49 PM

I bought "The Alamo" on DVD some time back because I remembered it being good. I was dissapoined :-(

Django was very good though.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Mudcat American?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Apr 20 - 02:53 PM

"I'm a lifelong fan of western movies."
Yup - mine too (especially black and white ones)
Watched Liberty Valance Last night Stewart, Wayne and Marvin all in one masterpiece - what more could a girl wish for (Gawd bless Moving Pictures channel)
Jim


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Mudcat American?
From: gillymor
Date: 24 Apr 20 - 03:00 PM

Saw one of my favorites last night, One Eyed Jacks, with Brando and Karl Malden.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Mudcat American?
From: Donuel
Date: 24 Apr 20 - 03:53 PM

Hitler and Stalin were both fond of westerns. They are often better than space operas. I watched every episode of Deadwood.

pfr The real quote is "the past is never dead..." its by W Faulkner and very American


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Mudcat American?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 24 Apr 20 - 04:48 PM

Donny - but I still have no clue why you are quoting it...???

Where do philosophical cowboys do their best thinking..

The Ponderosa Ranch...


..what a bonanza of trans atlantic merriment...


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Mudcat American?
From: Bill D
Date: 24 Apr 20 - 08:01 PM

An old Texas cattle rancher died and left his ranch to his 3 boys, to run or sell as they wished. They thought about it and decided to keep the ranch going and share the work and the business equally.
   They did decide they needed a new name for it... and after awhile one of them had an inspiration--- they called it "FOCUS Ranch"

because
.
.
.
.
.
.
that's where the sons raise meat....


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Mudcat American?
From: Donuel
Date: 24 Apr 20 - 08:22 PM

lol pfr, told my wife that one

Bill that one took me an agonized 10 seconds. 8^]


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Mudcat American?
From: Bill D
Date: 24 Apr 20 - 09:46 PM

*grin* that's one of the most perfect puns I ever heard. It's better told live...


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Mudcat American?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 25 Apr 20 - 04:17 AM

I think we have lost our way a bit. Or maybe it was just a pleasant diversion :-)

I think the answer is, Yes, the Mudcat is American. There is, of corse, a but. It is international in its membership and attitude. Maybe he Brits should be more considerate of American attitudes and maybe the Americans should either be more tolerant of us or not get involved in UK politics.

I don't have the answer, my friend, and it ain't blowin' in the wind. I still feel that stereotyping is wrong but I probably got the sentiment of the remark wrong. If so, apologies for causing this storm in a tea cup.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Mudcat American?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Apr 20 - 04:55 AM

"I still feel that stereotyping is wrong"
It is, of course and the problem certainly lies in both courts
I've always got on with Americans I met but that's hardly surprising as we mainly had a mutual interest in out music
Our politicians are another problem altogether - while they may be elected by the people they certainly don't reflect their characters
Britain has always been haunted by the "Rule Britannia" legacy of Empire where to be foreign was to be inferior - people to exploit rather than to unite with
To a large degree multiculturalism began to wipe that out - now its back big-time, largely thanks to Brexit
America is multicultural by birth, but opportunist fanatics like Trump, thet multiculturalism appears t be fragmenting -
The US has always had the slavery era hanging over it - that's been brought back too

Lets face it, if it was left to the people rather than self-serving politician and churchmen, there would probably never have been wars
Jim


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Mudcat American?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 25 Apr 20 - 05:20 AM

Never a truer word than your last line, Jim. And a sensible post all round. I am lucky in that on our visits to the states we have stayed with relatives and mixed with the ordinary everyday folk that are their friends and neighbours. I really don't recognise the 'ugly American' as was mentioned earlier. The only time I have come across the loud and brash was in Mexico where a group of young American people were being a nuisance in the pool. An older American lady had a quiet word with them and they were much better behaved after that. The problem was not that they were American but that they were young and being a bit thoughtless. That is what I am trying to get at.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Mudcat American?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 25 Apr 20 - 05:23 AM

I should have gone on to say maybe we are old and being a bit thoughtless. But it has nothing to do with us being British!


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Mudcat American?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 25 Apr 20 - 05:46 AM

It has nothing to do with nationality. We have a small group of old men who like to fight, and they make it unpleasant for the rest of us.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Mudcat American?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 25 Apr 20 - 05:55 AM

Don’t read the thread then.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Mudcat American?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 25 Apr 20 - 06:01 AM

No, Backwoodsman, it's beyond that, and it's a problem that has existed for a long, long time. Many British singers have apologized to me for the small group of men who have dumped such a constant presence of animosity on Mudcat. It gives the whole forum a bad taste, and it chases people away because the animosity is almost frightening.

I know a lot of singers from all over the world, and very few are obsessed with combative conduct as our small, male group that has such a dominant and unpleasant presence. It's not normal behavior, and it's not the normal conduct of folk musicians. Most of us are a gentle lot. We come together to enjoy each other, not to do battle.

-Joe Offer-


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Mudcat American?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Apr 20 - 06:01 AM

And your post, Joe Offer, is from an old man who sounds as though he likes to start fights. In other words, don't be so daft. The only person who comes here to fight is Iains, but you can't see it. You just think that "he has different political views."


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Mudcat American?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Apr 20 - 06:05 AM

Many British singers, eh? An easy remark to dash off. Tell us more. Unless you'd care instead to reflect on the irony of your extremely combative and negative attitude revealed in these last couple of posts.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Mudcat American?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Apr 20 - 06:09 AM

We have a small group of old men who like to fight, and they make it unpleasant for the rest of us
Just as we have a moderator who wields =his power (using ageist terms) to insulyt those he's supposed to work on behalf of
As a moderator you are the most immoderate poster on this forum Joe and insensitive enough not to realise it
Who can I complain to or will you just close the read to defend yourself
Behave responsibly please
Jim Carroll


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Mudcat American?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Apr 20 - 06:20 AM

I have just posted a formal complaint to a moderator - we'll see what happens
Jim Carroll

Not sure how to go about this but I would like to formally protest at Joe Offers abusing some of the older members of this forum using inappropriate ageist language
Iain's is hard enough to cope with without a moderator going toxic
This is not the fist time this has happened - it illustrates perfectly my point about moderators fireproofing themselves from criticism
I suggest you get your team sorted out before he drives more people away than he already has
Sorry to land you with this
Jim Carroll


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Mudcat American?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 25 Apr 20 - 06:38 AM

The way to demonstrate who is the Problem Poster, in a way that even his cronies on the Moderation Team can’t ignore, is to ignore his insults and provocation completely. Then his behaviour will be thrown into stark relief, and ‘Gentle’ Joe (whose recent PMs to me prove that he’s anything but ‘gentle’) will have to acknowledge the truth.

How many bloody times does it have to be said before it sinks in.

Now I’ve had a gutful of this crap. See ya.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Mudcat American?
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 25 Apr 20 - 06:43 AM

The only person who comes here to fight is Iains ....

If only that were true!

DC


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Mudcat American?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 25 Apr 20 - 06:45 AM

Actually, Jim, I'm not a moderator; and I stay as far away from "disciplinary" moderation as I can. I'll close a music thread if it gets overly combative, but I almost never delete posts. I am the music editor, and I would like very much for Mudcat to be a home for the pleasant music discussion we used to have instead of a battleground for people who want to wallow in their pettiness.

And yes, I would very much like to have civil and constructive discussions of Walter Pardon and Ewan MacColl.

The ones I call the "usual suspects" have been a blight on Mudcat for years. Their first pariah was Lizzie Cornish, if I recall correctly. There wasn't anything really wrong with her, except for the fact that she was (and still is) quite daft. But the mob got after her, and made far more of a disturbance than Lizzie ever made herself. And once Lizzie got scared away (because we refused to ban her), the mob picked another pariah, and then another, and now Iains.

I'm also Mudcat's public contact person. When I get a complaint, I check it out and then refer it to the Forum of Moderators for action. Over the years, I have received a steady stream of complaints about the various pariahs. Being a conscientious sort of person, I go through the person's posts over the past few days, and I find very little that people complain about - but one objectionably right-wing post from somebody like Iains can generate twenty lengthy, angry posts from the mob. Now, the mob could just ignore the offending post and go on talking about what they were talking about, but they'd rather do battle. They live to do battle. And in the process, they're not doing Mudcat any good.

I'd rather talk about music, and I never cease to be amazed at how I have been able to meet so many extraordinary musicians at Mudcat. I have made wonderful music friends all over the world. But this small group of people, all males, is making friendly and interesting music discussion increasingly impossible. These combatants scare a lot of good people away. I suppose that's the way of the world nowadays. In our local government in a rural California county, a small but vocal group of bullies makes it almost impossible to have a civil discussion. People are scared to speak up at public meetings, and then they stop attending - because the right-wing bullies work so hard to hold their turf.

At Mudcat, the bullies are on the left, but they are every bit as combative and every bit as wrong as the right-wing bullies. I'm tired of it.

-Joe Offer-

P.S. I'm called "ageist" because I identified the "usual suspects" as old and male. I'm old and a male myself, but I try to avoid combat and do my best to be open to younger people. If I'm 71 and male myself, can I realistically be accused of being "ageist" and anti-male?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Mudcat American?
From: peteglasgow
Date: 25 Apr 20 - 07:02 AM

i saw a thread on the list (with 1 comment ) about the difference 'English folk versus American folk' and thought 'that's a bit ' unnecessary. when i opened it i find it was put there by someone using an old name of mine! i knew nothing about it. thankfully, the thread has closed - could some mod tell me what has happened here as i find this disturbing?
    Yeah, I closed it because it was something that actually should have been in this thread. It was one of our heavy-duty trolls, in a class far beyond Iains. If I had deleted the thread, he would just have posted another. So I let him have his say, but prevented anyone from responding.
    -Joe Offer-


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Mudcat American?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Apr 20 - 07:11 AM

"Actually, Jim, I'm not a moderator;"
In which case the moderators should be able to deal with your appalling behavior without any problems - we know damn well they are unable to because you wirld the big stick on this forum
You scupperd a discussion on Ewan and banned us talking about Walter for a long Parion - when I protested I was suspended - twice
Your claims don't fit your actions
Your accusations about bullies ring false as you have protected the worst of them for years y claiming him to be the victim of those who disapprove of his politics, despite having had many dozens of examples of his personal abuse being put up in front of all your noses - he is as right as they come, he has denigrated Irish, black and Travellers with your full support - that's not politics - that's juas verbal abuse at the lowest level - illegal in Britain   
You are in fact the worst bully here - you have persistently denigrated the members by referring tio them as "children" - you described me as suffering from dementia - (you are of course, medically qualified to do so, I'm sure !!)
you have manipulated threads like those so MacColl so you could talk about his politics rather than his work on music....
Your behavior is that of a classic bully
Complaining about trolls elicits the accusation of "whining", your latest ageist outburst ranks mildly next to some past behaviour
Your PMs read like hate mail - I still have them - personal and occasionally foul-mouthed abuse - so much so ou protested when I told you I was passing them on to some of your other victims   
You are what you are and many of us have learned to live with it, but you are now decalring war between moderators and ordinary members by feeding them your dishonest claim that our objection to your pet troll is "political"
That really doesn't auger well for the future of this oncce important and pleasurable forum

I have formally complained - let's see what happens, not too much if the past is anything to go by
As usual - this will be passed around in case anybody misses it
Jim Carroll


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Mudcat American?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 25 Apr 20 - 07:13 AM

[sigh]

Good night, Jim. You're boring.

-Joe Offer-


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Mudcat American?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Apr 20 - 07:16 AM

You're not a moderator but you can close threads and you tried to ban me a few months ago. Pull the other one.

You can't show me any single post of Iains' that has garnered twenty lengthy, angry protest posts. Nothing like. Stop making things up. As for this:

"...but they'd rather do battle. They live to do battle. And in the process, they're not doing Mudcat any good"

The only person who currently comes here to do battle is Iains, unless you'd like to count yourself. I do NOT "live to do battle." I post in music threads, recipe threads, joke threads and all sorts of whimsical threads. I don't do battle in those. I do not live to do battle. And what's not doing Mudcat any good is your adamant refusal to excise the person who is causing the trouble. Instead of facing up to that obstinate fact, like Molly used to do and like Jeremy does, but probably doesn't have to any more, you leave him unfettered then blame the rest of us. We are all decent human beings with all the flaws that that comes with. One such flaw is that we find it hard to ignore being grossly insulted by a far-right know-nothing. Yes there's a counsel of perfection, but we are human and should try harder of course. But you are letting him insult us, exposing us to that when you have it in your gift to stop him. On the contrary, it almost seems to give you pleasure in allowing it. Then you attack US. And I reckon we want Mudcat to be a better place a damn sight more than you appear to do. So quit the demonising and get a grip, Joe.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Mudcat American?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Apr 20 - 07:17 AM

"can I realistically be accused of being "ageist" and anti-male?""
Yes you damn well can
I was brought up not to refer to people as being "old" - certainly not in the context of abusive sentences like yours
The problem with Bullies is they are unaware of their abusive behaviour and seem to think it normal
Jim Carroll


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Mudcat American?
From: peteglasgow
Date: 25 Apr 20 - 07:18 AM

thanks joe, (i'm replying to a note from joe about someone using my name here) i know it isn't the first time (this week!) that this has happened. is it not possible to discontinue all old names to stop this happening again? and is stealing someone's ex-identity in this way not sufficient cause to get them banned off mudcat? it is fraud and technically a legal offence


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Mudcat American?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Apr 20 - 07:22 AM

Yes, you do have a habit of sending abusive PMs, don't you. I still have all my posts going back for four years. Sorry to add to your boredom.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Mudcat American?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 25 Apr 20 - 07:24 AM

Goodnight, Stevie. You're boring.

-Joe Offer-


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Mudcat American?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Apr 20 - 07:39 AM

"Fuck you, Stevie"....remember that one from January, Joe?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Mudcat American?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Apr 20 - 07:40 AM

"Goodnight, Stevie. You're boring."
More talking down to from your mountain-top
You make our point for us Joe
Jim


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Mudcat American?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Apr 20 - 07:40 AM

"Goodnight, Stevie. You're boring."
More talking down to from your mountain-top
You make our point for us Joe
Jim


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Mudcat American?
From: peteglasgow
Date: 25 Apr 20 - 07:53 AM

sorry to interrupt the ian argument -

joe, could you answer my question about the fraud thing and what happens with old names? thanks...


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Mudcat American?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Apr 20 - 08:21 AM

Your not interrupting anything Workie - I wish you every success - hope your able to hold your breath for long periods
Jim


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Mudcat American?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 25 Apr 20 - 08:27 AM

It is a known troll, Pete. He can only come on as a guest but uses the names of other Mudcatters after the "Guest" tag. If you see, for instance, Guest:Dave the Gnome it will be a pound to a penny that it is not me but the troll trying to stir up trouble. To make matters even worse he used the name of a lovely well respected lady, now sadly departed, the other day. The moderators are on to him and remove his posts as they appear. There is nothing that can be done about his using the names of others until Mudcat becomes a members only forum.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Mudcat American?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Apr 20 - 08:40 AM

Which it should.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Mudcat American?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Apr 20 - 08:50 AM

Gaughan Forum Rule 2: No anonymous members.

It is a requirement of forum membership that you let the other members know who you are. There is not a single good reason in a forum of this kind for anonymity*. If you are normally known by a nickname, by all means use it here; my birth name was Richard but the only people who ever use that are my parents (both dead) and my two sisters and their children. The no-anonymity rule is not here to check people's birth certificates, it is simply so that we all know who we're talking to and the risk of anonymous trolling is reduced. As said, by all means use a nickname on posts but please put your real name in your member profile and you will be asked to give it when registering.

*As with this one, this forum discussed both music and politics, among other things.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Mudcat American?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 25 Apr 20 - 08:59 AM

The problem there, Steve, is that you lay yourself open to abuse away from the forum? Those of us who remember the ‘Folk Against Fascism’ period know exactly what that resulted in, and it was very, very ugly indeed. One of my personal (real-world) friends, a former Mudcat member, was very badly affected by it, to the point of calling in the police, and there were a significant number of others. The culprit(s) were never discovered, to my knowledge, although the police were aware of the part of the UK he lived in.

There’s no way in hell I’m going to expose myself to that kind of shit. If anyone here wants to know who I am, they’re perfectly at liberty to PM me and ask - if I consider them worthy, I’ll tell them. Otherwise, it’s Foxtrot-Oscar.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Mudcat American?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Apr 20 - 09:01 AM

Stop "whining about trolls" if you want to keep this thread going lads - you know the rules !!
Jim


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Mudcat American?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Apr 20 - 09:06 AM

Well, John, there's a compromise. You have to join but your real name doesn't have to be for all eyes. As for me, I'm a controversial sort of chap when I'm not being my usual fluffy bunny self, I always use my real name, y'all know where I live and I've never had that kind of trouble. But I know it can happen.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Mudcat American?
From: peteglasgow
Date: 25 Apr 20 - 09:10 AM

ok, jim - i'll stop whining about trolls other than ian and leave the field clear for you to whine about ian. and joe.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Mudcat American?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Apr 20 - 10:10 AM

"for you to whine about ian. and joe."
That was a flippant comment aimed at Joe Workie - not exactly 'the listening bank'
Complaining about a moderator is quite likely to have us standing against the wall at dawn
Jim


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Mudcat American?
From: Donuel
Date: 25 Apr 20 - 10:17 AM

Of the last 34 posts 4 were American. I used to think the UK had the most members but this thread has persuaded me that may have been an illusion. I don't care. I just look for who is more interesting and what I can learn.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Mudcat American?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Apr 20 - 10:49 AM

I think America might be in bed at the present time - never did get the hang of time-zones
Jim


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Mudcat American?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 25 Apr 20 - 10:53 AM

The culprit was discovered, John, and it's the same person we are discussing here. I'm sending you details by PM as they should not be made public in the open forum.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Mudcat American?
From: Iains
Date: 25 Apr 20 - 11:09 AM

The argument seems a little one sided at the moment. Time for an illustrated bit of balance

Jim Carroll - PM
Date: 26 Feb 17 - 02:57 PMMake up your fucking mind you mad fascist
You really are the Full Monty as far as right wing extremism goes

Jim Carroll
Insulting someone's intelligence is, in my opinion, worse than insulting them personally. "
Amen to that

Jim Carroll - PM
Date: 26 Feb 17 - 06:56 PM
Try not to talk to people and remember you are a mental midget Iaians
People with far more knowledge and experience have had their fingers burned on this forum by forgetting their place.
You really are an obnoxiously smug bastard, aren't you - what a pity your contributions don't live up to your posturing - especially regarding your supporst for a mass murder and torturer.
Christ - what a team - racists, fascists and moronic bullies who think they know more than anyone else after five minutes posting.

Jim Carroll - PM
Date: 27 Feb 17 - 03:33 AM
Will you kindly fuck off with your arrogant ranting - it impresses nobody

From: Backwoodsman - PM
Date: 30 Dec 18 - 06:21 AM
Ha-ha! This will get our Right-Wing Extremist Fuckwit foaming at the gills...

From: Steve Shaw - PM
Date: 23 Apr 20 - 05:28 PM
Iains is a horrid, nasty piece of work, probably a right-wing plant. He causes almost all the trouble here. So you should be lobbying to get him out. Instead, you persist in blaming us...



Neither God nor the British electorate supports any of the venom posted by the cabal, yet they continue to plead their innocence.
Time to fess up boyos. - You just like to provoke so you can play victim when your pathetic ruse is exposed.
The Labour supporters all try the same ruse. Have a listen to Guido itemising some prime examples on the media recently.
https://order-order.com/2020/04/25/guido-talks-expert-activists-media-distrust/?utm_source=Guy+Fawkes%27+Blog+List&utm_campaign=
I am afraid you live in a frozen time bubble. Labour has been out of power for a decade and you seem to take out your frustrations on this forum and get uppity when forced to acknowledge the fact. Seems to me you 4 members of the cabal are entirely resposible for all the trouble and strife on this forum. Hypocrites, or what? Getting rid of me would not solve the problem, Getting rid of you would!


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate
 


This Thread Is Closed.


Mudcat time: 15 April 10:17 AM EDT

[ Home ]

All original material is copyright © 1998 by the Mudcat Café Music Foundation, Inc. All photos, music, images, etc. are copyright © by their rightful owners. Every effort is taken to attribute appropriate copyright to images, content, music, etc. We are not a copyright resource.