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BS: UK thread, Politics and political

Backwoodsman 02 Jul 20 - 07:52 AM
Backwoodsman 02 Jul 20 - 07:48 AM
Steve Shaw 02 Jul 20 - 07:48 AM
Jim Carroll 02 Jul 20 - 07:25 AM
Backwoodsman 02 Jul 20 - 07:17 AM
Steve Shaw 02 Jul 20 - 07:12 AM
Steve Shaw 02 Jul 20 - 07:02 AM
Backwoodsman 02 Jul 20 - 07:00 AM
Jim Carroll 02 Jul 20 - 06:10 AM
Backwoodsman 02 Jul 20 - 05:30 AM
Jim Carroll 02 Jul 20 - 03:12 AM
Backwoodsman 02 Jul 20 - 02:41 AM
Dave the Gnome 02 Jul 20 - 02:14 AM
robomatic 02 Jul 20 - 12:52 AM
Steve Shaw 01 Jul 20 - 08:46 PM
punkfolkrocker 01 Jul 20 - 07:54 PM
robomatic 01 Jul 20 - 06:46 PM
punkfolkrocker 30 Jun 20 - 12:17 PM
DMcG 30 Jun 20 - 12:10 PM
Backwoodsman 30 Jun 20 - 11:30 AM
punkfolkrocker 30 Jun 20 - 11:30 AM
punkfolkrocker 30 Jun 20 - 10:58 AM
Steve Shaw 30 Jun 20 - 09:44 AM
Rain Dog 30 Jun 20 - 04:42 AM
DMcG 30 Jun 20 - 01:37 AM
Steve Shaw 29 Jun 20 - 06:09 PM
An Buachaill Caol Dubh 29 Jun 20 - 01:08 PM
punkfolkrocker 29 Jun 20 - 11:14 AM
DMcG 29 Jun 20 - 10:34 AM
Jim Carroll 29 Jun 20 - 04:45 AM
Dave the Gnome 29 Jun 20 - 03:47 AM
Jim Carroll 29 Jun 20 - 02:53 AM
Steve Shaw 28 Jun 20 - 06:49 PM
punkfolkrocker 28 Jun 20 - 06:27 PM
Steve Shaw 28 Jun 20 - 05:58 PM
Backwoodsman 28 Jun 20 - 05:04 PM
punkfolkrocker 28 Jun 20 - 04:46 PM
punkfolkrocker 28 Jun 20 - 04:42 PM
Backwoodsman 28 Jun 20 - 04:01 PM
punkfolkrocker 28 Jun 20 - 03:53 PM
Jim Carroll 28 Jun 20 - 03:37 PM
punkfolkrocker 28 Jun 20 - 03:30 PM
Backwoodsman 28 Jun 20 - 02:51 PM
peteglasgow 28 Jun 20 - 02:29 PM
punkfolkrocker 28 Jun 20 - 01:22 PM
DMcG 28 Jun 20 - 12:10 PM
Jim Carroll 28 Jun 20 - 10:06 AM
Jim Carroll 28 Jun 20 - 09:18 AM
Steve Shaw 28 Jun 20 - 08:58 AM
peteglasgow 28 Jun 20 - 08:30 AM
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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 02 Jul 20 - 07:52 AM

And, Steve, I hope RL-B does return to the Shadow Cabinet, sooner rather than later. I believe she’s a good brain who made a silly mistake. Hopefully she’s learned that it’s sometimes better to keep ones mouth shut.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 02 Jul 20 - 07:48 AM

No party can change anything if they’re not in government. To be in government, they have to be elected. To be elected they have to present themselves in a way that persuades not only party-members and non-members who habitually vote for the party but, more importantly, voters with no political allegiance, to vote for them.

Corbyn, for whatever reasons, failed dismally. As Einstein said, the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again, and expecting a different result. There has to be a change of direction. The voting public rejected the (far too many announced at one time) policies of Corbyn’s Labour. To insist on a move further to the left, or even simply a continuation of ‘Corbynism’ is to fulfil that definition of insanity.

Funny how some people find that so difficult to understand. I want a Labour government, clearly some people want the present bunch to stay in power indefinitely.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Jul 20 - 07:48 AM

Plenty of Labour supporters have severe reservations about Starmer. Before the election he was the fence-sitter par excellence. He's currently giving the illusion that he's doing well, but it's only because he's up against an incompetent man whose firing pin has been removed. He wants us to think the his unprincipled sacking Of RLB was him showing us that he can be "decisive," in stark contrast to his previous self. Well I'll make two predictions: that he'll make a lot more mistakes in the next four years for the media hawks to feed on, and that she'll be back on the front bench before the next election. As LBJ said about J. Edgar Hoover, better to have her inside the tent pissing out than outside the tent pissing in...The left are never going away. It's our bloody party...


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Jul 20 - 07:25 AM

"One led the party to its worst-in-living-memory defeat in the 2019"
Brexit Fatigue won the 2019 election - nothing else
Corbyn came in and began to turn the Labour Party from a second rate 'son of the Tory Party' back into one with an alternative policy
Now we seem to have Starmer supporters lining up with the bum-wipe press to give him a kicking for trying to reintroduce Labour to why it was et up in the first place - strange bedfellows - or are they ?
This becomes as devisive as sacking ministers for telling the truth
Sorry - can't see a future for the party I was once proud to vote for if this is what has happened to it

I have been fascinated to to what hass happened to parts of the concious population over the last few months
First a major moe towerd ending the inherent racism that has been re-awakened by Brexit and Populism - this has spread to a re-extermination of Britain's colonial past and the inequality of many of the cultural minorities - Travellers included
Thanks to a young girl, the kids have approached the perilous situation of Climate Change, big-time - I was listening to David Attenborough addressing conference delegates, this morning - Thunberg's activities have played a major part in his thinking
Looking outside Parliament, the politicians are going to have to run very fast to keep up with what's happening on the streets

The pathetic numbers that attend parliamentary sessions have always been irrelevancies - the Labour Party needs to decide whose side they are on and they need a leader with principles to do that
This feller fell at the first fence
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 02 Jul 20 - 07:17 AM

Y’know Steve, it’s almost as though you and Jim don’t want a Labour government. It’s like you’d prefer the Johnson Gang to stay in power, butt-fucking the most vulnerable. Weird.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Jul 20 - 07:12 AM

Well, John, Jeremy Corbyn was up against a hubris-ridden, devious, newly-elected populist full of braggadocio. Starmer is up against a very different man with a whole bunch of problems that he couldn't have predicted, including a near-death experience and an incredibly shabby track record of proven incompetence, and Starmer is still enjoying his charmed-life honeymoon. Something to contemplate before we make pat comparisons between him and Corbyn.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Jul 20 - 07:02 AM

I don't like the fact that my country sells planes to the Saudis which they use to bomb Yemeni civilians, and I frequently say so. That is a criticism of government policy, not of the character or predilections of the British people. I don't like the fact that the Israeli secret service is involved in training foreign police forces in violent methods of restraint, and I frequently say so. That is a criticism of Israeli government policy, not of the character or predilections of the Jewish people (as Israel characterises itself as a Jewish state, I regard it as appropriate to put it that way). If I were to say that the Israeli government behaviour that I don't like is typical of Jews, that would be antisemitic. If I single out the behaviour of Israel in a discussion about foreign or domestic policy, I don't have to mention everybody else's bad behaviour in order to avoid being called antisemitic, though you'd rightfully think that I was being obsessive, and suspect my motives, if I NEVER mentioned anyone else. We single out the behaviour of different nations' governments all the time, whether it's us selling jets to the Saudis or American foreign policy or the outrages of the Chinese regime, and we don't feel obliged to demonstrate every time that everyone else is just as bad. I'm not going to feel that I can't mention Israel without walking on eggshells when I don't do that for every other country's regime. Unfortunately, that's the mindset we are expected to adopt by pro-Israel hawks (can I say that?) And that ain't right.

If the Jewish people in Israel and beyond are anything like us Brits, large numbers won't know or give a damn what their secret services, etc., get up to. That's why I'm careful to criticise the Israeli regime, not "the Jews" or the "Israelis" or even "Israel." We don't need to walk on eggshells, but words are important.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 02 Jul 20 - 07:00 AM

One led the party to its worst-in-living-memory defeat in the 2019 GE - an absolutely disastrous arse-kicking, delivered by a Tory party unfit to govern with a leader unfit to lead.

Just remind me, who that one was...


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Jul 20 - 06:10 AM

"Something Corbyn never managed to do."
Cobyn is a relatively inexperienced politician who has never held major office and was finding his feet - Starmer is a senior QC whose prefession is based on the use of words and argument
An apples and grapefruit comparison
One is a committed socialist with principles, the other is an opportunist careerist prepared to sell out his colleagues and the reputation of his Party when it becomes convenient to do so - apples and grapefruit again
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 02 Jul 20 - 05:30 AM

Johnson must dread PMQs now that Labour has a leader who can show him for the clueless Twunt he is. Something Corbyn never managed to do.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Jul 20 - 03:12 AM

It is an established fact that the Isralis have been training American police forces for several years now, one of those being the Minneapolis police force
It is also true that the tactic of 'kneeling on the neck' is a regular one used against Palestinian protesters and has been reported widely - Makine Peake got her information from a newspaper article published in 2012
It would have been logical to assume that the Minneapolis police were trained in this riot control tactic - their trainers would have been remiss had they not taught it in the circumstances
However, Peake didn't have to assume anything - it was reported in the 2012 article - it was not an assumption, it was a report she was well within her rights to make
In sacking Long-Bailey and the massive damage it has done to the Party Starmer has attempted to stifle criticism of Israel and has verified the smears against The Labour Party.
There is no evidence whatever to show the Pary has ever had a probem wit The Jewish People - not a shred - sure, a tiny handful o members have made critiscism o Israeli crimes 'Jewish' but so has Israel - by claiming it is 'antisemitic' to criticise Israli policy, is too claim that policy to be "Jewish"

Israel is a State which has been committing crimes against humanity on a large scale under the guise of "defending itself", with the active protection of the U.S. and the silence of the est of the world - one of the greatest massacres of unarmed civilians i peace time took place in 1982 when the Israeli Army facilitated the mass-murder of up to 3,500 unarmed refugees, turned back those trying to escape and, after three days, helped hide the evidence by supplying machinery to bury the bodies
There has never been such a single massacre since W.W.2. - the man found responsible (even by the Israeli enquiry), Areil Sharon, became Israeli Prime minister 19 years later
The mane eye witness to the massacre, American Jewish nurse, Ellen Seigal, has dedicated her life to bringing Israel to justice   

THere are no '"nastier elements@ of the Israeli regime - it is an extremist, right wing regime run by a criminal and in the process of ethnically cleansing the Arabs about of their rightful territory - full stop - it is estimated that their policies have added 7.2 millioan refugees to the present world total

In defending this regime, Starmer has now placed the Labour Party among those 'silent appeasers' defending this criminal behavour - which is why he is not fit to be leader
If that is the Labour Party Britain now has, it should not be supported
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 02 Jul 20 - 02:41 AM

Posted here without comment. The Economist, 12/10/19....

Drawing the line between anti-semitism and criticism of Israel


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 02 Jul 20 - 02:14 AM

Ok, Robomatic. Maxine Peake may well have made an unfounded comment. The American police may not have learned the tactic from the Israeli secret service. But while whether they did or didn't is a conspiracy theory, how is it antisemitic? In fact, by saying it is antisemitic, you are tarring all Jews with the same brush as the nastier elements of the Israeli regime. There are millions of decent Jews around the world who are as appalled by some of the tactics of the Israeli government as you and I are. Are you really saying that by criticising the more extreme elements of that regime, she was criticising the Jewish people in general?


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: robomatic
Date: 02 Jul 20 - 12:52 AM

The comment from Ms. Peake was the kind of offhand association of ideas with no solid foundation as is used to spread nasty ideas about parties and just infiltrate the blogosphere. This tactic did not start with the internet or twitter but has certainly been magnified by it. It does nothing but spread a false association as if it is founded in actual research, which it isn't. The retweet on the part of Long-Bailey just makes it more indirect and harder to call out. It's the kind of incessant negative nattering that is at the heart of casting unfounded aspersions and builds an "attitude without evidence" and indeed got Corbyn called up multiple times.

Sir Keir called the situation correctly, as Griffith stated above. And the fact that so many people think that that kind of below-the-breath allegation is a correct way to behave shows how deep it's gone.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 Jul 20 - 08:46 PM

It's late, pfr, so I hope it's ok if I just say "yep"...


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 01 Jul 20 - 07:54 PM

"When pressed on whether members who have sent messages of support from the left for Mrs Long-Bailey
were guilty of anti-Semitism, Ms Griffith said: "Well I think they are
"...


Easy enough to dismiss her own "blanket assumption or blanket criticism"...!!!

..Toadying claptrap...


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: robomatic
Date: 01 Jul 20 - 06:46 PM

from the Beeb

Nia Griffith was shadow defence secretary under Jeremy Corbyn, with Keir Starmer appointing her shadow Welsh secretary when he took over the leadership.
Ms Griffith said anyone who cannot accept Sir Keir's zero-tolerance approach should leave the party.
"He (Sir Keir Starmer) said he would deal with anti-Semitism in the party," Ms Griffith said.
"And we really needed decisive action to do that so when, unfortunately, Rebecca Long-Bailey did what she did on Thursday, and did not respond to the opportunity to apologise, it was absolutely essential.
"And he's had real support throughout the party on that."
Mrs Long-Bailey retweeted the article, which was an interview with actor and Labour supporter Maxine Peake, but later the former shadow education secretary said she had not meant to endorse all aspects of it.
When pressed on whether members who have sent messages of support from the left for Mrs Long-Bailey were guilty of anti-Semitism, Ms Griffith said: "Well I think they are and I think they're also in danger of going backwards and going back over old arguments and old mistakes because what we need now is clear, decisive action to make sure that we root out anti-Semitism in the party.
"And so, it's absolutely vital that we do that, not just talk about it.
"So action is really important and they must learn to accept that and I'm sure the majority of them will."
The Welsh Labour Grassroots group put out a statement following Thursday's events, which said criticism of the Israeli Government was not tantamount to anti-Semitism.
Ms Griffith said that was "disappointing and worrying", and that "when people start making blanket assumptions or blanket criticisms that is very often the basis of anti-Semitism or racism".
She added: "That's completely different from making a specific comment about a specific policy about a specific government."
On the question of what should happen to members who agreed with Mrs Long-Bailey, Ms Griffith said: "Well it is going to be a long process and I think starting off by making it absolutely clear we have zero tolerance of anti-Semitism in the party is step one, but quite clearly there is work to be done."


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 30 Jun 20 - 12:17 PM

I suppose an old etonian boy would be overly fond of the word "beating"..


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: DMcG
Date: 30 Jun 20 - 12:10 PM

Several runners have been withdrawn by trainers from racing at Leicester after Tuesday's meeting was cleared to go ahead despite new city lockdown rules.

The nine-race evening fixture is taking place after consultation between local health authorities and the British Horseracing Authority (BHA).


I imagine the race track is actually some distance outside of Leicester, but when it comes to sending mixed messages, we have a "world-beating" government.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 30 Jun 20 - 11:30 AM

”[.. and btw, where's Leicester's nearest seaside or lake resorts...???]“

Lake - Rutland Water?

Seaside - Skeggy is traditionally Leicester’s go-to resort. They even used to have a Leicester Boys’ Home there, closed now.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 30 Jun 20 - 11:30 AM

cumming's initial devious [..cough.. alleged..] plan was to exploit pandemic to cull costly non productive old and weak..

His new follow up scheme seems to be to loosen lockdown restrictions in order to thin out expensive sunbathing furloughed workers
and their dependent family members...


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 30 Jun 20 - 10:58 AM

innit like boris's beach swarming dickheads
aren't expected to start dropping like flies until something like 7 to 10 days later...???

[.. and btw, where's Leicester's nearest seaside or lake resorts...???]


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Jun 20 - 09:44 AM

I see that the Beeb is reporting that the overall death rate has gone even a bit below the expected level for the time of year. I wonder whether that's because a lot of people who should have died last week are already dead...


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Rain Dog
Date: 30 Jun 20 - 04:42 AM

Hancock was on the Today show on BBC Radio 4 this morning and

"He said: "We've sent a lot of extra testing into Leicester over the last 10 days or so and one of the things we've found is that there are under 18s who have tested positive.

"Therefore, because children can transmit the disease, even though they are highly unlikely to get ill from the disease, we think the safest thing to do is to close the schools."

One thing we can all agree on is that the handling of the public relations or getting the news out about this virus, has been very bad. Whoever is responsible for that job is not doing it very well.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: DMcG
Date: 30 Jun 20 - 01:37 AM

I got Leicester's treatment completely wrong: I said in a few places I did not think they would lock down Leicester because it makes the upcoming 'New Deal' speech more difficult.

I waited until Hansard was out, because I wanted to get this part of Hancock's speech precisely correct. Here's what he said, with my highlighting:

We have decided that from tomorrow non-essential retail will have to close and, as children have been particularly impacted by this outbreak, schools will also need to close from Thursday

Children particularly affected by this outbreak? If the press pick up on that I can see more problems with reopening schools ahead.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Jun 20 - 06:09 PM

I absolutely don't do conspiracy theory...but this Leicester malarkey...we've all let our hair down a bit too much...crowded Bournemouth beaches full of turds...social distancing gone to the wall...so let's put the shits up us all using Leicester as an example...

(No, Stephen. It can't be right so stop that NOW...)


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: An Buachaill Caol Dubh
Date: 29 Jun 20 - 01:08 PM

Well, there have been claims about not receiving, or overlooking, some E-Mail or other, but perhaps by now they've all been testing their eyesight in the approved manner.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 29 Jun 20 - 11:14 AM

Has boris used the classic "Sorry,my dog ate my homework" excuse yet,
for missing brexit dreadlines*...


[*Dreadline:

Demands a finishing date (that might be arbitrary)
Puts too much pressure in a timeline that’s too small
No one’s on the same page thanks to weird scheduling changes and goalpost shifting
Creates an environment of panic and breaks down communication...

(quote nicked off the internet, but forgot where from)]


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: DMcG
Date: 29 Jun 20 - 10:34 AM

Meanwhile ...

At the lunchtime press conference today there were signs that the Brexit talk deadline is now the end of September. This sounds likely to me: the EU was saying any deal needed to be agreed in principle by October, to give enough time for the countries and EU Parliament to sign it off - and we have of course had threats not to do so if the individual countries did not agree. We have also been told the Brexit negotiator David Frost will move from that role to national security adviser when Mark Sedwill departs in September.

Of course, that only gives three months to get all the deal/no-deal preparation in place, for government and business, but that would be typical of the level of preparation we expect from this government.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Jun 20 - 04:45 AM

Corbyn ordered an enquiry at the behest of Jewish members of the party, which was the only thing he could have done - that enquiry found no serious problem
To have ignored demands for an enquiry would have played into the hands of the media and the right wing of the Party
Starmer carried out no enquiry, but has sacked a minister for criticising Israel - that is not only divisive, as has been shown, but it is tantamount to agreeing that criticising Israel is antisemitic - which is, by definition, antisemitic

Tenth and final clause from The Holocaust Remembrance Alliance definition of antisemitism
"Holding Jews collectively responsible for actions of the state of Israel."
If it is antisemitic to criticise Israel, it follows that claiming criticising Israel is antisemitic implies that The Jewish People are responsible for Israel's actions - simples

Starmer's action is antisemitic
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 29 Jun 20 - 03:47 AM

The Labour party has no more problem with antisemitism than the rest of the country. As the UK in general has a number of people who are antisemitic, racist, sexist etc. then a number of those must also support Labour and even be members of the Labour party. It is to be hoped that party members are, in general, less likely to be 'ist' than some others but saying that there is no antisemitism at all in the Labour party would be silly. The leadership, both Starmer and Corbyn, has failed to address any real antisemitism and danced to the tune of populist propaganda. I am very disappointed and disillusioned.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Jun 20 - 02:53 AM

Pragmatism is the last thing The Labour Party wants now - any gains Labour has ever made have been by standing firm on policies and principle - from 1949 to Corbyn coming in with proposals of a return to principle
The media and establishment have always known this - just look who and what they picked out for their special treatment - the things and paeople who might actually change things for the better - nationalisation, social housing, the N.H.S., effectinve industial action like the Miners, steelwrkers and dustmans' strikes
It was the thinkers and principled dreamers in the Labour Party who were given special treatment - a (sort of) Socialist Government after the War, Foot, Benn - and most recently Corbyn - all stepped out of the Parliamentary greenhouse articulately argued to change things Corbyn was inexperienced and finding his feet, but the other tw were brilliant and inspirational public speakers - I heard Foot and Benn speak several times
I shared a platform with a feller named Fenner Brockway once - I din't agree with everything he stood for but Jesus - what a speaker

Parliament has become a meaningless farce - has anybody watched it ?
A tiny percentage of elected representatives shouting abuse at each other and voting for what they intended to in the first place
There are so few of them bothering to turn up that, since being televised, they have to 'doughnut' to make them look more than there are
How much longer are people going to put up with that ?

The only people worth voting for are those who are going to say something principled and worthwhile, and act on it
Is someone who goes with the media flow, sacks ministers who gets in his way by telling the truth and is prepared to split his pary and degrade everything it was created for the leader to do that ?
You decide - I have
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 Jun 20 - 06:49 PM

The tragedy is, pfr, that we have to look for a Jewish MP to do it. We shouldn't need that. We should need honest, straightforward, principled and clear-sighted people of any persuasion/religion/ethnicity/whatever to speak up honestly, clearly and fearlessly, and to show the hypocrites that we know what they're up to and that we're not wearing it. Now a party that espoused that is a party I could cheerfully vote for, instead of constantly having to decide who's the best of a bad lot...


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 28 Jun 20 - 06:27 PM

Is there not a single leftist Jewish Labour MP,
tough enough to fight back hard against the false accusations of right wing Jewish groups,
who could have stood as a candidate for leader, or deputy...???

Now if I was playing "Fantasy Political Party Leaders"..

That's who I'd play the game with...


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 Jun 20 - 05:58 PM

Nobody's trying to twist your words, John. Your words do suggest that principle should be ditched and that "electability" should trump everything else. Well I think that four more years is going to be a very long time in politics, and that in the meantime we have to stick to our principles. One of those principles is that we don't accept for a single second false accusations of antisemitism against good-hearted, proper, principled socialists. Any socialists, not just my pin-up girl. Christ on a bloody bike, John, for saying that. Starmer has just ditched that. It won't work, the right-wing vultures in Labour and the Board Of Deputies will continue to circle and we will never hear an end to this until they have made Keir their puppet. He's no Blair, he's no Attlee and he isn't even a Wilson. He's a bloody lightweight and you know it. He must spend half of his days picking splinters out of his buttocks with tweezers after all that pusillanimous fence-sitting. We are truly in trouble, and Sir K has just played into the hands of the bastards.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 28 Jun 20 - 05:04 PM

Nah mate, I gave over smacking blokes up when I reached 60... :-) :-)


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 28 Jun 20 - 04:46 PM

MWB - btw.. I know your're not one of the mudcatters fighting for the sake of it..

wanna make something of it.. outside now.. errmm.. can someone hold my spectacles.. and my pint.. and pork scratchings...


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 28 Jun 20 - 04:42 PM

WMB - bollocks.. and i always try to check to make sure I don't get your initials in the wrong order...

..my only excuse is I was distracted by dancing along to Cliff singing "Dynamite"...


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 28 Jun 20 - 04:01 PM

”BMW - I predicted banning right wing antagonists from BS
would most likely lead to increased petty infighting between us mudcat lefty/liberal mates...

[pfr - trying hard not to be a smug "I told you so" pillock...]”


I’m not fighting with anyone, pfr. I’ve made my point several times, I’ve carefully avoided others’ word-twisting, baiting, and traps - now that’s me done. You know my motto - I’ve repeated it often enough...

BTW - I’m BackWoodsMan, not a German car! ;-)


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 28 Jun 20 - 03:53 PM

"Israel has been part of British politics at least since they set out to scupper a Labour leader
who stood firm on their behaviour by smearing him and his Party
"

Jim - Israel, trump's Americans, and whichever other misc Nations and billionaires
fearing Britain gaining a Labour Govt,
will forever continue doing that in increasingly corrupt and nastier ways...

We've got to wise up and swallow the taste of being realist pragmatists in this perpetual fight these evil opponents..

Remeber - the simple objective..

Get tories out, keep 'em out, and avoid stupid divisive infighting
allowing the far right to win Govt instead of us...


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Jun 20 - 03:37 PM

"(by the way, jim, i hope that was the question you wanted me to answer! good luck, pete"
It was - thanks - I don't think there' a chsm between us

"people have been too busy twisting my words"
Pretty dificult when you reply to nothing

"While we argue about leadership,"
I don't think anybody does that - most of this is about how to get a leader who will do something about it
Israel has been part of British politics at least since they set out to scupper a Labour leader who stood firm on their behaviour by smearing him and his Party
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 28 Jun 20 - 03:30 PM

BMW - I predicted banning right wing antagonists from BS
would most likely lead to increased petty infighting between us mudcat lefty/liberal mates...

[pfr - trying hard not to be a smug "I told you so" pillock...]


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 28 Jun 20 - 02:51 PM

”...times are desperate, we have to be in power.”

Exactly what I’ve been saying. Sadly **some** people have been too busy twisting my words and trying to set traps for me to even listen. Fuck ‘em.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: peteglasgow
Date: 28 Jun 20 - 02:29 PM

i've never thought that labour has a problem with anti-semitism. i've never encountered it in the party or at any union meeting i've been at. i'm confident that if anyone had come out with that shit they would have been called out and disciplined. i'm also sure that it is a confected argument that was prosecuted by tory jewish organisations and their duplicitous stooges in the labour party - i'm angry that corbyn never had the balls to sack the likes of john mann and margaret hodge but did sack livingstone, williamson and lewis.

the most recent thing about rebcca l-b i feel was unnecessary, badly handled and just wrong. i like her and feel she represents a vital part of our party and what's more, is clearly a good person.

[t's wrong what keir starmer did but i can understand the politics. if you look at the many crimes of the tory party - the most obvious and relevant being windrush - it's appalling that they are where they are. they could kill all the grannies, impoverish all our young people and arse-lick trump to charleston and back and at least a third of the forelock-tugging english voters are going to support them.

i have never been a lover of the labour party or its broad church. i have supported and been a member of other parties before. but a constant has been that i hate the tories and all the greed, stupidity and bigotry that they represent.

so this is where we are - in the shite. sadly, progressive people have to play their horrible game or we risk leaving our country to economic and cultural disaster. the best we can hope for at the moment is a decent government with general liberal and competent principles. we ain't going to get the last chance for a socialist government in my lifetime that i hoped for as i supported jeremy corbyn in recent years.

i'll support the labour party for now despite reservations- i'm done with stomping off in principled huffs - times are desperate, we have to be in power.

(by the way, jim, i hope that was the question you wanted me to answer! good luck, pete)


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 28 Jun 20 - 01:22 PM

Sunday tea time reality check,

Life tends to be unfair, and will get increasingly unfairer the longer the tories stay in in power..

Politics is a dirty business, and Starmer may be a bit c@ntish,
but he's not a completely evil c@nt like politicians further right than he is...

The lesser of two evils will have to do until perfect utopia gets granted building permission..


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: DMcG
Date: 28 Jun 20 - 12:10 PM

Jendrick it a 'Friend o Israel' with all that implies and is a rabid Tory
What on earth has that got to do with the Labour Party Leadership?


Nothing, which is precisely the point. While we argue about leadership, we ignore things that the Tories are up to.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Jun 20 - 10:06 AM

"Robert Jenrick"
Sorry - I don't see the point in that reference at all
Jendrick it a 'Friend o Israel' with all that implies and is a rabid Tory
What on earth has that got to do with the Labour Party Leadership
We do know that the Tory Part has a far more serious Antisemitism problem than any other part - real antisemitism - we also know that on two occasions leading Muslim figures have accused the Conservatives of having a serious Islamophobic problem, yet our "hard Labour leader joins in the right wing chorus of Labour being antisemitic
What exactly are you saying?
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Jun 20 - 09:18 AM

Too many maybes there WM - Labour has had too many "maybe he'll be ok when he's on office's and not one of them have come up to the mark
There has never been a better time to offer an alternative to what has happened in the past - even without the present crisis, people seem to have had just about enough
The increasing cynical mistrust of politicians is not something that Labour can afford to be part of any more if it is to survive
It would be good if you answered my question WM
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 Jun 20 - 08:58 AM

"...and which Steve ignores because of his, admittedly admirable, loyalty to his pin-up girl..."

So you back out of discussion with a final Johnsonite sexist barb. Nice! :-)


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: peteglasgow
Date: 28 Jun 20 - 08:30 AM

chris williamson and clive lewis were sacked by corbyn while our rightish mp was serving in the shadow cabinet.   it is always a tricky road between ignoring and responding to the relentless media attacks. maybe starmer will manage that better than corbyn but it's still going to happen. probably because the media will more easily tolerate a more centrist figure - mind you, there is his donkey sanctuary shame. eric heffer said years ago in the benn/kinnock battles that any bird needs 2 wings to fly....we need to be appreciate the JPF/PFJ more. in workington when we had the latest meeting to nominate the next leader/depute someone said that 'of course, in scotland the enemy is the SNP'

no - the enemy is the same as ever. we have to keep focussed.


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