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BS: UK thread, Politics and political

Steve Shaw 17 Jul 20 - 04:23 AM
punkfolkrocker 17 Jul 20 - 04:12 AM
peteglasgow 17 Jul 20 - 03:58 AM
Jim Carroll 17 Jul 20 - 03:40 AM
punkfolkrocker 16 Jul 20 - 03:41 PM
peteglasgow 16 Jul 20 - 03:40 PM
Jim Carroll 16 Jul 20 - 03:24 PM
peteglasgow 16 Jul 20 - 12:32 PM
Backwoodsman 16 Jul 20 - 12:29 PM
punkfolkrocker 16 Jul 20 - 11:42 AM
Jim Carroll 16 Jul 20 - 11:02 AM
DMcG 16 Jul 20 - 09:09 AM
Jim Carroll 16 Jul 20 - 08:25 AM
peteglasgow 16 Jul 20 - 08:10 AM
Steve Shaw 16 Jul 20 - 07:47 AM
peteglasgow 16 Jul 20 - 06:16 AM
Jim Carroll 16 Jul 20 - 04:17 AM
Backwoodsman 15 Jul 20 - 07:14 AM
punkfolkrocker 10 Jul 20 - 02:19 PM
Jim Carroll 10 Jul 20 - 10:25 AM
SPB-Cooperator 10 Jul 20 - 10:16 AM
Jim Carroll 10 Jul 20 - 10:14 AM
Rain Dog 10 Jul 20 - 09:42 AM
Jim Carroll 10 Jul 20 - 09:05 AM
Nigel Parsons 10 Jul 20 - 08:04 AM
Nigel Parsons 10 Jul 20 - 07:59 AM
The Sandman 10 Jul 20 - 05:57 AM
Steve Shaw 10 Jul 20 - 05:54 AM
Jim Carroll 10 Jul 20 - 05:08 AM
Nigel Parsons 10 Jul 20 - 04:48 AM
Steve Shaw 09 Jul 20 - 08:37 PM
Jim Carroll 09 Jul 20 - 03:07 AM
punkfolkrocker 08 Jul 20 - 02:53 PM
Jim Carroll 08 Jul 20 - 03:13 AM
Steve Shaw 07 Jul 20 - 06:19 PM
Jim Carroll 07 Jul 20 - 06:11 PM
Steve Shaw 07 Jul 20 - 05:11 PM
peteglasgow 07 Jul 20 - 04:51 PM
Jim Carroll 07 Jul 20 - 03:01 PM
peteglasgow 07 Jul 20 - 01:20 PM
Jim Carroll 07 Jul 20 - 11:57 AM
Raggytash 07 Jul 20 - 09:38 AM
Steve Shaw 07 Jul 20 - 08:44 AM
Jim Carroll 07 Jul 20 - 08:12 AM
Steve Shaw 03 Jul 20 - 05:24 PM
Raggytash 03 Jul 20 - 04:35 PM
Steve Shaw 03 Jul 20 - 04:02 PM
Backwoodsman 03 Jul 20 - 01:42 PM
punkfolkrocker 03 Jul 20 - 01:42 PM
Steve Shaw 03 Jul 20 - 01:38 PM
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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Jul 20 - 04:23 AM

My point about Starmer is that he's the same-old and that he can't and won't beat the Tories in a month of Sundays. We need a party that offers real change and gives the country a real alternative. Tell me where you see that coming from with Starmer, because I don't see it. He's a panderer and that will not give a reason for the electorate to vote for change. The bumwipe press saw Corbyn as a real threat after the 2017 election and thereafter did the business on him. One massive thing that Blair got right was to get Murdoch on his side. A dirty business that went a long way to keep him in power. A string of feckless Tory leaders helped, but his trump card was that he had charisma. We have to suck all that up and learn from history. Starmer has all the attributes of a loser so far.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 17 Jul 20 - 04:12 AM

Jim - come on, you know fully well that any Labour Govt has never been as evil
as the tories would have been in their place...

You also know socialism does not stand a hope in hell anymore,
in this new age of instant worldwide right wing internet propaganda.

They hold the power and wealth that counts.. we don't, and probably never will.

So yes, any lefty with any sense will have to swallow bitter compromise
to try to kick the tories out for a few years every couple of decades,
if we can.....

Lesser of two evils will always have to suffice,
and is at least more realistically achievable than dogmatic socialist utopia...

Back in the 1970s Citizen Smith was a comic stereotype revolutionary both left and right could have a chuckle at.

Now most British voters would want to troll him to death with internet hatred...

That's the present day reality that Starmer is facing up to..
.. and for all his faults, do you seriously suggest he will be worse for our living standards and future,
than the tories or ukip...!!!???


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: peteglasgow
Date: 17 Jul 20 - 03:58 AM

'do you want us here in britain to suffer many more years of tory government' is a meaningless PR slogan'

so, jim, the plan is 'something has to change'

hmmm....the worst thing we could do on this thread is to indulge in pointless - 'who is more left than who' squabbles - PFJ/JPF. not because it matters what happens here but because it reduces the point and the purpose of our discussion.

we can all agree we are (mostly) on the left and we are all in the shit. what is the best way out? (by the waay i'm not even sure if the terms right or left have much relevance anymore (how about wreckers/progressives?))

we have to get rid of the tories. as ever - it's idealism v pragmatism. i'm once a trot and still a trot but absolutely sick of losing . however, me sticking to those ideas will do nothing to get help to the most vulnerable.( nor will it help to restore rights to our Scottish children in Italy and Estonia)


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Jul 20 - 03:40 AM

"Do you want us here in Britain to suffer many more years of Tory misgovernment,"
That's a fairly meaningless slogan PFR and one I have become rather tired of
To blame one Party for the continuing deterioration of a situation that has taken place under the jurisdiction of all parties is to miss the point big-time
I listed the losses under both Labour and Tory administrations, did they or did they not happen, and were or were not all the Parties involved ?
I believe they were - they happened, and will continue to happen because all parties, whatever their nuances of difference in tactics, share the same objective - to preserve the status quo

The Labour Party was set up with 'a calling' - to change society for the betterment of all
Gradually, its policies have become indistinguishable from the rest of those running in the Parliamentary rat-race
In a way, Blair did us all a favour by ending the pretence and formalising the similarities with his 'New Labour' - that should have set enough alarm bells off enough to take action
Then we had the Bumbling Brown fiasco

Accusations of 'leftism' from some sections of the Party are indicative of how far off the path Labour has wandered from its raison d'être - using the reason that Labour was set up in the first place as an insult!!!
In doing this, those Party members have lined themselves up with the Tories, Murdoch's bum-wipe press - and all those trolls who have come to forums like this using 'Leftie' as an epithet
I look on being a "leftie" with pride - a sign of humanity and fairness - those who believe being left is in some way wrong is not only backing the wrong horse - they've come to a different horse-race

Corbyn was an other unknown - a newbie learning the trade of Parliamentary Politics, yet she shook the system by it's very roots over the short period he was in the limelight
He attracted the hatred and fear of the establishment and their toadies in a way no other Party Leader ever has - even to the point of forcing right-wing regimes abroad to begin to interfere in British politics - that alone has to be a sign that something needs to change

You all know what is likely to happen to the British people when the pandemic ends and Brexit begins to kick in - already The Tories are beginning to join the Trumpite Quadrille in making the lesser well of pay for wiping up the mess
Are you really happy to watch this taking place with yet another right-wing status quo-er at Labour's helm - one who has already shown his double-standards, his lack of loyalty to his collegues and his lack of socialist principles?
Yeah - well !!!
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 16 Jul 20 - 03:41 PM

Jim - step back in the real world for a few seconds..

Do you want us here in Britain to suffer many more years of tory misgovernment,
or would you like to hand the keys of no 10 to ukip,
[or whatever name they next rebrand themselves...???]...?????


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: peteglasgow
Date: 16 Jul 20 - 03:40 PM

ok, jim.what is your plan for getting rid of the tories?


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Jul 20 - 03:24 PM

There is no evidence that Labou under Stamer will fight the Tories - they never really have since they sung to the right - when did they
When did they ever put right the damage the previous Governments had done - every mistake they made as put down to the last lot remember however many "years of Tory misrule"
No socialisty policies - no significant chamnges, the Wilson Govenment was among the first to attack the Trades Unions
Unemployment has risen under both Labour and Tory governments, industries like shipping, coal, and steel dwindled to nothing due to lack of investment from Labour and Tory Governments - in essence, there are no distinguishing features between Right-Wing Labour and Tory policies - the only difference is that the Tories are better at Toryism
Right wing Labour is third rate Torysism - If you want Tory policies, vote Tory, if you want Tory Policy in velvet gloves vote Lin Dem
Corbyn offer a return to principles - so fart this feller has offered double standards and ministers being sacked for telling the truth (unless you are one of his mates)
If you want to fought - fight for decent policies and leadership within your own party
For all his good debating Stamer will make no difference - what happens on the floor of the house no longer concerns the people of Britain, who regard parliamentary politicians as a sick joke not to be trusted - who gives a toss what happens in The House nowadays - honestly !!!
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: peteglasgow
Date: 16 Jul 20 - 12:32 PM

i'd agree with that pfr. clearly, many of us have spent a lifetime fighting the tories with principles and activism. we have lost every time and now is worse than ever. when you look at the state we are in with this government i'm afraid some of our principles look a bit self indulgent and fiddling while england burns.

Jim - of course i don't know for certain that labour would be able to address some of the problems of public services and low pay. but you wouldn't need full-on socialism to do this . when we get power the country is likely to be in a terrible state. any sensible government would have to try to tackle thse problems. even blair put loads of money into health, social care and education. some of that was ppi - a terrible error - i don't think we'll be making that mistake again. but we can never even begin to think about progres unless we win an election....


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 16 Jul 20 - 12:29 PM

Wasting your time, pfr - none are so blind as they who refuse point-blank to see.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 16 Jul 20 - 11:42 AM

Jim - Having said all that.. and there is very much we agree on..

I'd rather concentrate at least 90% of my limited time and energy
directly fighting back against the tories and even further right..

Rather than wasting it on distracting self defeating Labour in-fighting...

Starmer is presently the latest party leader,
and that's who we have to hang our hopes on for the time being..

Like it or lump it...

The primary goal must be kicking the tories out,
without blunderingly helping the far right replace them in Govt...


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Jul 20 - 11:02 AM

Surely the behaviour of the leader of the Labour Party is worth more than that Mac - he is either guilty of what he has been accused of here or he is innocent
Some of us have been long time supporters of the Party to describe criticism of the leader as "a hate session" removes our right as supporters to criticise the party we support
I thought that sort of thing was the domain of the Tory Party
If he 'didn't do it' - why not join those who support that idea
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: DMcG
Date: 16 Jul 20 - 09:09 AM

I get that some people on the thread do not think much of Starmer. Fine. I haven't posted much during this two minute hate session, but there is a heck of a lot of other UK politics of relevance. I probably won't post here again until the introspection is over and we start talking about some of those.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Jul 20 - 08:25 AM

What makes you confident about any of that WM ?
Corbyn came in with a new broom and the Govenment and media raised this and threw everything they could at him in order to make sure his ideas weren't accepted - he was "The Spectre that haunted Britain and became 'The enemy of the State'
Of coutse those ideas were "unpopular" - we've had decades of Labour politicians who sold out their principles in order to gain a degree of popularity
Given the racism statistics in Britain, I would not hesitate to suggest that any political party which adopts a "send 'em back to where they came from" policy would shoot up the popularity poll tomorrow
If being popular is all that matters, why not adopt that approach ?
That would be populist opportunism - that's why not
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: peteglasgow
Date: 16 Jul 20 - 08:10 AM

i'm confident a new labour government will address the state of our public services, will have a serious attempt at inequalities and looking after the more vulnerable - and many other policies that would be popular. i suppose the current idea is to take on the (fantasy) anti-semitism issue to try to differentiate from corbyn. totally unfair though the attacks on JC were - they did bring him down. if the worst they can throw at KS is a donkey field and a load of angry, disaffected trots then he should get an easier ride. as i said it's a dirty game - but i really do value our public services - human rights and our relationships with our allies in europe and beyond.

pete (please Joe, change my name again as requested)


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Jul 20 - 07:47 AM

If you want to know why Starmer is the wrong man, read Lynsey Hanley's article in the Guardian today, "Labour will win by changing minds - not pandering to right-wing voters." Starmer is compared with Roy Jenkins, hardly a leftie, who refused to pander to public opinion and right-wing voters (as Starmer tries to do, and don't even mention pandering to the pro-Israel lobby) and, as Home Secretary, pushed through reforms that went AGAINST public opinion, abolishing the death penalty, decriminalising homosexuality, making divorce easier and making abortion legal.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: peteglasgow
Date: 16 Jul 20 - 06:16 AM

while it's plane to all of us and to all sentient beings that the government is greedy, reckles, feckless and evil with literally no redeeming features. we have to accept that there is a large portion of people in england who just don't see it that way. last week i heard 3 people agree that johnson has done pretty well since he has a lot on his plate with being ill, new baby ....unprecendented this but same for everywhere that........

But what about all the extra deaths? what about scotland and a more sensible approach.....but my heart wasn't in it - fuckem! i'm sick of having to have more or less the same argument every day - i really don't want to give up on my fellow citizens...but

i had a look in the window at my local the other day - despite the right intentions on notices on the door there are still folks hanging around the bar and no sign of social distancing. i'll be sticking to relatively quiet beer gardens for now. much as i long for a pint of Jarl.

all the above are people that have to vote labour. it's a dirty game to get the approval of the shitty papers but we have to turn it around. on doorsteps at election i have heard 'not voting for corbyn' too many times and we have a lost a good mp to a far right tory thug - our new Workington man.

call me a sell-out if you like. i want rid of the tories above all else in politics. with corbyn i was hoping for a decent socialist government for a few years before i die. now i've downgraded my hopes and would be happy - for now at least- with a victory followed by a decent sensible government (answerable to conference and a left executive - but don't tell anyone)


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Jul 20 - 04:17 AM

It's interesting that, despite the whole mass over obviosus cock-ups and contradictions on how the pandemic is being handled - particularly with a push from the top for people to get back to work "for the sake of the economy" while at the same time, discussing 'locking-in' parts of Lancashire, there is no actual move to stop this appalling Government doing the damage they are doing
They are being allowed to do (or not do) they are doing totally unhindered - by Starmer, or anybody else - Starmer and Johnson are two sides of the same coin
Johnson castigates people who break lock-down rules while, at the same time, refusing to discipline Dom the Div for blatantly riding rough-shod over them
Starmer sacks a minister for so-called antisemitism, and refuses to do anything about a similar claim because the perp is a mate and supporter
These people have lost any right to trust and respect their elevated position has given them
Time to call in the Pest Control people, it would appear - they all need replacing with leaders with principles before they bring Britain further to its knees than it already is
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 15 Jul 20 - 07:14 AM

Sir Keir Starmer, the Leader of the Labour Party, calmly beating the Prime Minister about the head in PMQs right now on BBC Politics Live. He makes a complete fool of Johnson every week in PMQs, and Johnson’s only response is to lose his rag and try to blame Labour for the failures of his own policies and actions.

A joy to watch.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 10 Jul 20 - 02:19 PM

Thatcher encouraged factory workers on our council estate
to become home owners.
Then within a couple of years the factory went bust,
putting them out of work,
unable to pay their mortgages.

Those ex council homes would have become easy pickings at auction,
for vulture investors/landlords waiting for this inevitable outcome...


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Jul 20 - 10:25 AM

SORRY - PREM EJAC
In !772, 48% of Britaain's population lived in Council Houses, by 2008, that had shrunk to less than 8%

THIS BEING THE RESULT
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 10 Jul 20 - 10:16 AM

The problems are that when people bought their council homes, local autrities wer enot allow to build a new home to replace. Secondly, the disparity between private and social rents can be massive. For insyance in a hpiusing estate near where I live, in the same floor in the same block - one falt remained a council flat, the other was purchased under right to buy then sold on to be part of the private rented housing portfolio - idetical flats the rant for one less than £500, the rent for the other about £1,500 per month. Thirdly, housing , particularly higher value are often boought, not to be lived in but to be sold on as investments, or lower costs done up to put them outside the reach of first time buyers.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Jul 20 - 10:14 AM

"I am not aware that people were forced to buy their council houses."
It started out as an 'opt into scheme' but the gradual withdrawing of Government financial support and other pressures eventually led that to being edged out of existence


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Rain Dog
Date: 10 Jul 20 - 09:42 AM

I am not aware that people were forced to buy their council houses.

The state rented market has definitely fallen but then there has probably been an increase in the private rental market.

What nobody can dispute is that there is a shortage of housing in the country at the moment. I cannot see it being dealt with unless you have the state/councils building more properties. That seems unlikely though.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Jul 20 - 09:05 AM

is part of the economy does not mean that they are "no longer homes".
Yes it does Nigel
Thatcher sold them to Britain as investments - I saw the results close at hand as people were forced to walk away from what were once their homes after having been forced to take on Mortgages they could not afford
The rental market all bus disappeared overnight
Countries lik The Soviet Union, despite all their faults, guaranteed a toof over the people's heads as part of the constitution
The post war Labour Government created a social homes system equal to none - opposed and derided by your Tories - and eventually destroyed by you
Whatever lip service is paid to "homes" - once you hang an affordable price tag on them, they become something else
Go tell me what the minimum wage is for someone aspiring to live (or continue living) in the South East of England
Like higher education - now way out of reach of the less well off - even when working
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 10 Jul 20 - 08:04 AM

" but to get the economy moving"
Is that confirmation that houses are no longer homes but adjuncts of "the economy" Nigel
As things have stood for a long time, the only people to actually "benefit" from a healthy economy are the well of - mainly the invesstos - all the rest of us have ever been able to hope for is to earn enough to feed our families and pay our mortgages; even "paying the rent" has become a thing of the past", since Mad Maggie all but destroyed rented property.


The fact that the sale and purchase of houses is part of the economy does not mean that they are "no longer homes". That is a totally false argument.
Also the property market is obviously part of the economy. The employment of builders and tradesmen, the sale of household appliances and much else besides requires the availability of new property, which also (often) requires others to be willing and able to move home.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 10 Jul 20 - 07:59 AM

Two things, Nigel. First, I made a mistake: the stamp duty handout is up to £15000, not £25000. Second, the struggling first-time buyers who buy my mum's old house in Radcliffe for £140,000 gain nothing
Only by being 'first time buyers'. And for them they could previously buy a property up to £300,000 without paying stamp duty.
For anyone else the saving on a £140,000 house purchase is small, but not nil.
The previous zero rated band went only up to £125,000.

then you did that Tory thing of forgetting the word "some" that should have been in your highlighted bit:
No, I omitted nothing. I gave a straight quote from the current government guidance:

As for the meal discount, it's a stunt. If I do decide to eat out in August, which is extremely unlikely around here with all these tourists pouring in, I won't be claiming. As you say, available to everyone, the rich and the poor alike, no targeting of the people who need the most help. As ever, wot Tories do.
No! It is targetting the people who need it, the entertainment industry who are trying to keep their businesses afloat.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: The Sandman
Date: 10 Jul 20 - 05:57 AM

Mean while is institutional racism within the police going to be affected by Morris Dancers deciding to not use different colour disguise on their faces?


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Jul 20 - 05:54 AM

Two things, Nigel. First, I made a mistake: the stamp duty handout is up to £15000, not £25000. Second, the struggling first-time buyers who buy my mum's old house in Radcliffe for £140,000 gain nothing. A first-time buyer in Cornwall buying a two-bed house for, say, £220,000 will gain £1500. Someone buying a £1.4 million house in Richmond, west London, will gain £15,000. As I said, to them that have it shall be given. You bollocked me for telling half the story, then you did that Tory thing of forgetting the word "some" that should have been in your highlighted bit: "individuals buying residential property worth less than £500,000 will also benefit from these changes..." SOME individuals, Nigel, and the ones who gain nothing will overwhelmingly be people living in the poorest parts of the country. As ever, wot Tories do.

As for the meal discount, it's a stunt. If I do decide to eat out in August, which is extremely unlikely around here with all these tourists pouring in, I won't be claiming. As you say, available to everyone, the rich and the poor alike, no targeting of the people who need the most help. As ever, wot Tories do.

As for the furlough bonus, the biggest companies who can more easily soak up their lockdown losses, who were probably going to take back most or all of those workers anyway, must think it's their birthday.

Still, never mind. It's all only taxpayer money after all. The taxpayer who is eventually going to foot the bill for this disaster. And you can bet your bottom quid that it won't be the richest who feel the pain. We have ten years of austerity history to support that prediction. As ever, wot Tories do.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Jul 20 - 05:08 AM

" but to get the economy moving"
Is that confirmation that houses are no longer homes but adjuncts of "the economy" Nigel
As things have stood for a long time, the only people to actually "benefit" from a healthy economy are the well of - mainly the invesstos - all the rest of us have ever been able to hope for is to earn enough to feed our families and pay our mortgages; even "paying the rent" has become a thing of the past", since Mad Maggie all but destroyed rented property.
Would you like to hazard a guess which sections of the society are due to be hardest hit in the next decade or so
INTERESTING ARTICLE HERE
AND HERE
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 10 Jul 20 - 04:48 AM

So the chancellor has given a 25 grand tax break to people buying houses that cost half a million. Oh, and we can get ten quid off a restaurant meal that we would have been buying, or not, anyway.

If you only show half the story, of course it can look bad. Everyone (rich & poor) can get the price reduction for eating out, and:
Companies as well as individuals buying residential property worth less than £500,000 will also benefit from these changes, as will companies that buy residential property of any value where they meet the relief conditions from the corporate 15% SDLT charge.
It's worth noting that the average cost of a house in London is now over £500,000

The purpose of the changes is not to put money in the pockets of the rich, but to get the economy moving.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Jul 20 - 08:37 PM

So the chancellor has given a 25 grand tax break to people buying houses that cost half a million. Oh, and we can get ten quid off a restaurant meal that we would have been buying, or not, anyway. Oh, and he's giving companies a thousand quid for every employee they take back off furlough. There's one burger chain (the Beeb Coronaviruscast show didn't say which one, but it'll be a lot more than just the one...) will potentially make a hundred million from that, even though they were probably going to take most of them back anyway...

Welcome to Tory Britain. Say "To them that have, it shall be given."   Don't say "We're all in this together."


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Jul 20 - 03:07 AM

There was a long letter to The Irish Times yesterday condemning the recent actions in annexing Palestinian land
The letter takes up a column and a quarter, and the list of signatories a column and three waters(36 signatories in all - a worldwide list of political dignitaries, Nobel prizewinners and officers), U.N. committee Members, and human rights representatives - and the former Prime Minister of Norway.
There are a couple of Americans on the list and several Irish ones - but not one single British name - Labour or Conservative
The seem far too busy accusing maverick humanists of "antisemitism"
This act of annexation is one of the most dangerous moves to have taken place in an already toxic aea for a long time, yet ours and America's and many other national and world leaders have washed their hands of it
The British Labour Party Leader has already made his position on Israeli human rights abuses - and we should support this man out of loyalty to the party - 'Hell no - I won't go"
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 08 Jul 20 - 02:53 PM

Remember, nobody is allowed to accuse Israel of conspiracies,
not even when then they are so blatantly conspiring,
only a very cowardly fool would deny it was happening...


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Jul 20 - 03:13 AM

Smeeth's role in all this HAD BEEN A KEY ONE
I must admit that, when I first became interested in all this I believed it to be a knee-jerk reaction to the threat of BDS, but I am finding that it GOES BACK MUCH FURTHER
This orgainsed interference in international politics has been going on for far longer than anybody imagined
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Jul 20 - 06:19 PM

To be clear, I was referring to Marc Wadsworth, expelled after the theatrical put-up job orchestrated by Ruth Smeeth at the launch of the Chakrabarti report on alleged antisemitism in the party. Wadsworth is a lifelong campaigner against racism but that counted for nothing when set against getting a leftie out of the party. Smeeth has long-time links with Israeli politicians and is closely allied with pro-Israel lobby groups in the UK, including Labour Friends Of Israel, BICOM (founded by the son of an Israeli arms dealer, using his dad's wealth) and the Board Of Deputies, for whom she's worked. Wadsworth didn't know Smeeth and didn't know that she was Jewish, but he called her out when he witnessed her colluding with a right-wing journalist. But he's gone, and Reed isn't. As the yanks say, go figure.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Jul 20 - 06:11 PM

" we can't forever be letting labour's extremely sensitive tory enemies set the agenda of what we are allowed to talk about."
These accusations began four weekes after a meeting between Labour's 'Friends of Israel Group' and members of the Knesset in Jerusalem, which in tturn came a couple of weeks after Corbyn announced his support for the Palestinians
Up to that, there wasn't a whiff of suspicion about "a problem"
Israel ir run by an extremist right wing administration, so the 'Frieds of Israel' are "friends" with a right wing regime
I'm afraid the Tories have little to do with this other than to have leapt on an already moving bandwagon
Work it out
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Jul 20 - 05:11 PM

Terms such as puppet-masters, when used to depict people in control of large organisations, secretly pulling strings, are age-old antisemitic tropes when applied to Jews. What Reed did was far worse than what RLB did. She was referring to the activities of the Israeli regime. He was referring to an old stereotyping of Jews. He's a politician, not just any old bloke down the pub. It's no excuse for him to say he didn't know that the chap was a Jew. The Labour Party has history when it comes to kicking someone out of the party despite that excuse. Of course, in that case it was a leftie. In this case, it's a buddy of Sir Keir. Make your own mind up as to whether that's a double standard.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: peteglasgow
Date: 07 Jul 20 - 04:51 PM

yes, but chris williamson was sacked for - as i remember 'labour needs to stop apologising so much about accusations of anti-semitism' we can't forever be letting labour's extremely sensitive tory enemies set the agenda of what we are allowed to talk about.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Jul 20 - 03:01 PM

"who is claiming to be offended? and why?"
Does it really matter
What is important is that Staamer said it was and refused to sack the accused
I think this nonsense of everything disapproved of by whoever being "antisemitic" if someone claims it is has to stop
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: peteglasgow
Date: 07 Jul 20 - 01:20 PM

i heard folk talking about spme labour mp's comment on richard desmond on the radio and did not know what they were on about. since when was 'puppet master' an anti-semitic term? really? really? and is richard desmond jewish? really? how would anyone know? or care? what percentage of people reading this story would understand these 2 ideas? perhaps someone could tell us where the offence is? who is claiming to be offended? and why?


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Jul 20 - 11:57 AM

"I wasn't aware that "Puppet Master" was a Jewish trope. I thought a "Puppet Master" was just that a "Puppet Master" "
I didn't realise that criticising Israel was antisemitic but that's what he sacked the lady for
If he'd had any sense he would have challenged the term, but that would have really blown the gaff
Instead, he agreed it was and reprimanded Reed for his antisemitism - thus identifying him the two-faced politician he obviously is
He should resign and be replaced with someone prepared to defend the Labour Party
This whole thing stinks of "You're only accusing me because I'm Black"
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Raggytash
Date: 07 Jul 20 - 09:38 AM

I wasn't aware that "Puppet Master" was a Jewish trope. I thought a "Puppet Master" was just that a "Puppet Master" someone who pulled the strings whilst others danced.

I'm fairly sure I've met several "Puppet Masters" through my life, I'm not sure that any of them where Jewish.

So just how are we supposed to refer to "Puppet Masters" in the future.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Jul 20 - 08:44 AM

I said that Starmer was going to make mistakes. The excuse that Reed "didn't know that Desmond was a Jew" isn't good enough. Labour members have been drummed out of the party for less. Either Starmer sacks him or the hawks will continue to circle. Four more years to confirm his unelectability...


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Jul 20 - 08:12 AM

Johnson has savaged Care Homes, blaming them for their high rate of contravirus cases

Stamer has been accused of "double Standards" for refusing to sack his Shadow Cabinet Communities Minister, Steve Reed, for making an anti-Semitic statement - pretty well puts into context the reason for these accusations
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Jul 20 - 05:24 PM

I was wondering whether some kind of emergency massage might just bring the middle bit back to viability... Nurse!


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Raggytash
Date: 03 Jul 20 - 04:35 PM

According to my old man Steve, the expression (for people he held in low regard) was "Dead from the neck up to the navel down"

I use the same expression myself.

Sadly there are few people who comprehend just what I am trying to portrait these days.

As my Father would say.......................!!


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Jul 20 - 04:02 PM

"the "not dead" bit was the give away..."

Yet to be confirmed. I could be alive just from the neck down, with another gap half way down according to the missus... :-(


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 03 Jul 20 - 01:42 PM

So the point of it was.....what?


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 03 Jul 20 - 01:42 PM

the "not dead" bit was the give away...


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Jul 20 - 01:38 PM

Nah, Pete. I made it up. I would never buy a Beamer or a bolt-hole in Spain, and wild horses wouldn't get me to a golf course or force me to buy shares, I've never voted against strikes, we only had one house move, the lad paid most of the cost of his university years, I hated Blair, always voted for Jezza, think that leave voters are generally demented and I'm not dead!


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