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BS: UK thread, Politics and political

Jim Carroll 18 Jul 20 - 02:40 PM
Backwoodsman 18 Jul 20 - 02:13 PM
punkfolkrocker 18 Jul 20 - 02:01 PM
punkfolkrocker 18 Jul 20 - 01:53 PM
punkfolkrocker 18 Jul 20 - 12:30 PM
Steve Shaw 18 Jul 20 - 10:01 AM
Jim Carroll 18 Jul 20 - 09:46 AM
DMcG 18 Jul 20 - 09:15 AM
The Sandman 18 Jul 20 - 07:02 AM
Jim Carroll 18 Jul 20 - 06:47 AM
DMcG 18 Jul 20 - 06:01 AM
Jim Carroll 18 Jul 20 - 05:59 AM
Backwoodsman 18 Jul 20 - 05:47 AM
The Sandman 18 Jul 20 - 05:46 AM
Jim Carroll 18 Jul 20 - 05:37 AM
Nigel Parsons 18 Jul 20 - 05:34 AM
The Sandman 18 Jul 20 - 05:17 AM
Backwoodsman 18 Jul 20 - 05:02 AM
Jim Carroll 18 Jul 20 - 04:50 AM
Steve Shaw 18 Jul 20 - 04:34 AM
Backwoodsman 18 Jul 20 - 04:24 AM
DMcG 18 Jul 20 - 04:04 AM
Backwoodsman 18 Jul 20 - 03:54 AM
Jim Carroll 18 Jul 20 - 03:47 AM
DMcG 18 Jul 20 - 03:23 AM
Jim Carroll 18 Jul 20 - 03:15 AM
DMcG 18 Jul 20 - 03:00 AM
Jim Carroll 18 Jul 20 - 02:35 AM
Steve Shaw 17 Jul 20 - 07:39 PM
Backwoodsman 17 Jul 20 - 04:28 PM
Dave the Gnome 17 Jul 20 - 04:27 PM
punkfolkrocker 17 Jul 20 - 04:02 PM
Dave the Gnome 17 Jul 20 - 03:55 PM
punkfolkrocker 17 Jul 20 - 03:49 PM
Jim Carroll 17 Jul 20 - 03:26 PM
Jim Carroll 17 Jul 20 - 02:55 PM
Dave the Gnome 17 Jul 20 - 02:47 PM
Backwoodsman 17 Jul 20 - 01:49 PM
Jim Carroll 17 Jul 20 - 01:48 PM
DMcG 17 Jul 20 - 01:31 PM
Jim Carroll 17 Jul 20 - 01:12 PM
Backwoodsman 17 Jul 20 - 01:02 PM
punkfolkrocker 17 Jul 20 - 12:50 PM
Jim Carroll 17 Jul 20 - 12:27 PM
Dave the Gnome 17 Jul 20 - 10:27 AM
punkfolkrocker 17 Jul 20 - 10:00 AM
Jim Carroll 17 Jul 20 - 07:23 AM
Raggytash 17 Jul 20 - 07:23 AM
punkfolkrocker 17 Jul 20 - 04:47 AM
punkfolkrocker 17 Jul 20 - 04:38 AM
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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Jul 20 - 02:40 PM

"But I like Jim enough to see him as an elder silver-back gorilla,"
I'd hate you be at the butt of your insults if you didn't like me
I think it's a fairly well established tradition on this orum that, whenever someone finds themselves in a corner - go for the throat
It doesn't achieve anything but it helps those at a loss feel better

I thinkk Baccie might be the first to be persuaded that there is not a serious problem with antisemitism - he says he "doesn't know if there is"

When a party has to pick it's representatives on racial or cultral grounds it really is on the skids
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 18 Jul 20 - 02:13 PM

ĒJohn, we have Sunak, a fairly incompetent chancellor of a few weeks who looks young, slim, smart, thrusting, dynamic, businesslike and cheery, who speaks persuasively (though he's never persuaded me of very much) and who has undoubted charisma. And then we have Sir Keir, who looks stodgy and vacillating and who bends in the breeze. That's the next election sorted for you. So what's YOUR answer to that?

I completely agree with you about Sunak, Steve. And I donít have an answer to your question, other than that I donít believe Rebecca Long-Bailey would be able to deal with Sunak any more than Starmer.

Iím not arguing about who, of the leadership-election candidates, would have made the best leader - thereís nothing to argue about, the Party membership made its democratic choice and it was Starmer. End of.

What Iíve been trying to persuade you and Jim (who never listens to anything anyone says if it doesnít align with his views) about is that the leader has been elected by a substantial majority in a democratic process. As someone above has pointed out, part of the reason for the Toriesí success in GEs is that, whatever their internal divisions, they present a United from as far as the voting public are concerned at election time. Itís incumbent on Labour voters in general, and Party members in particular, to show loyalty and support for the Party, and that means not undermining and backstabbing the democratically elected leader. Itís called Loyalty, and it counts for a great deal.

By the way, I'm staying in the party and, if I have to, I'll fight tooth and nail to get Starmer elected.

And so you should.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 18 Jul 20 - 02:01 PM

btw - it was a toss up between "tub thumping" and "chest thumping"..

But I like Jim enough to see him as an elder silver-back gorilla,
staunchly defiant in the face of inevitable extinction...


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 18 Jul 20 - 01:53 PM

Phew.. I've just finished reading all today's posts...


Jim - who appointed you Grand Inquisitor Judge,
empowered to condemn all those not as over-zealously 'lefty' as thou...!!!???

Get off your high horse, we can see right up the legs of your jockey shorts...

The tories are lapping up your divisive chest-thumping with glee and gratitude...


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 18 Jul 20 - 12:30 PM

I've not had time or energy to read all of today's splurge of posts yet...

So I'll just chip in with..

Are there no youngish charismatic principled streetwise Labour MPs
waiting in the background to take over from Starmer,
as and when required...???

Ideally, a Jewish Labour MP who will stand up to and fight back against
smears and false accusations of antisemitism...

Basically, someone like me;
but younger, more charismatic, more principled, more streetwise, and more Jewish...

I see a fair number of lefty comedians who could tick most of those boxes,
but unfortunately they're not MPs...


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Jul 20 - 10:01 AM

John, we have Sunak, a fairly incompetent chancellor of a few weeks who looks young, slim, smart, thrusting, dynamic, businesslike and cheery, who speaks persuasively (though he's never persuaded me of very much) and who has undoubted charisma. And then we have Sir Keir, who looks stodgy and vacillating and who bends in the breeze. That's the next election sorted for you. So what's YOUR answer to that? By the way, I'm staying in the party and, if I have to, I'll fight tooth and nail to get Starmer elected.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Jul 20 - 09:46 AM

Not sure of your point there Mac
We were discussing the fact that the new head of the Labour Party's behavior is driving some of Labour's greatest allies away
Changing the subject shows a disinterest rather than a concern for what should really be 'The People's Party'
You have let this right winger's bullying behaviour through on the nod yet you and others were quite outraged when the same thing was happening in the Tory Party
Why will you not discuss this disturbing subject - I wonder (but maybe I know already)
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: DMcG
Date: 18 Jul 20 - 09:15 AM

"The UK government said on Saturday it was pausing its daily updates of the coronavirus death toll after ordering a review of how the data is calculated, following concern that numbers may have been exaggerated.

Academics have said the way that Public Health England (PHE), the government agency responsible for managing infectious disease outbreaks, calculates the figures for England means they may look worse than in other countries of the United Kingdom."

I think that sort of thing is important and worth discussing.   On the other hand I suspect some will be more concerned with why
Len McCluskey is retiring a year early (and the same people may well ignore also be uninterested in why so many senior civil servants are leaving early.)


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: The Sandman
Date: 18 Jul 20 - 07:02 AM

There will not be an election for some time,unless something unpredictable happens, which often happens , Starmer ties johnson up in knots at PM question time, Johnson does not seem to be handling, covid 19 very well.
Starmer may or may not win the next Election, there is more to winning the next election that winning debates at pm question time.
I think he lacks the appeal to rednacks and some of the people that voted brexit that johnson has.
he may win a proprtion of the centre ground but will that be enough?
now much depends on what happens with the economy.
I think Starmer is just as middle class as Corbyn, but he will lose votes on the left.
We may end up with a labour lib coalition.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Jul 20 - 06:47 AM

One way ourt I suppoose - to agree with a Tory
Labour has to choose whether it wants to just "win elections" or, by doing so, is going to make a real difference
It had been a chance to bring about significant changes in sociiety over and over and over again and it has failed miserably
There seems little point in voting such a party into office unless it changes its ways - it really is as simple as that
The right purged the pary of left-wing members over and over again, The Young Socialist Groups, The Keep Left crowd - all driven out
Instead we got Callaghan, Blair and Brown
Blair was worst if following Mad Maggie's lead of tying Britain to America via third rate Hollywood actor, Ronnie Reagan - Blair climbed into bed with America's second-worst president, George Dubya, and used Weapons of Mass Destruction as a stimulator
When Corbyn appeared oon the scene, members came flocking back to the party, - this feller will drive the ones away he doesn't actually expel
What kind of party loyalty is that ?
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: DMcG
Date: 18 Jul 20 - 06:01 AM

There is some truth in that, Nigel. Back when I was doing my 'A' levels my school insisted everyone took one in General Studies. I think this was an excellent idea, since it meant people who were very strongly science based like me (my other 'A' levels were Maths, Further Maths, Physics, Chemistry) had to study some literature, architecture, and whatnot, whereas the artistically inclined had to learn some science. Amongst other things we also had to learn some politics, both current and historical. I well remember the teacher saying that the great political strength of the Conservatives was that they were so dedicated to winning that internal divisions could largely be put aside during election campaigns, whereas the Labour party could rarely do this: while all the left disliked the Tories they really hated those of the left who were too left wing or not left wing enough for them. A gross simplification of both parties, of course, but a simplification with more than a grain of truth in it.

All that was pre-Thatcher and Euroscepticism but even there the Tory divisions did not often stand in the way of a united front to get elected.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Jul 20 - 05:59 AM

"So, no answer then, Jim?You havenít the honesty or the balls to admit that Corbynís Labour was unelectable, "
Done and Dusted - the Government won the last election on the basis of the chaos caused by Brexit - only the right blame Corbyn - you have chosen choice running mates
Corbyn's policies may be difficult yto put across in the prasent "we hate Corbyn" atmosphere, but I would at least expect so-called members of the Party to support him - nott so, it seems
Now we have a rightie back in charge
The leader of the TUC has now resignbed because of Starmmer's failiure to stand up to Govenment policies
He has warned of the dam=ngerrs of returning to New Labour's "centre ground"
Steve and I maybe "disloyal" to this turd but you people are selling out the only alternative to Johnson's policies - a new broom which will sweep the lot away
Starmer has shown he want's to be part of the old guard in Westminster
You are welcome to him
Now will you answer my questions - rhetorical of course, course you won't
Jim
jIm


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 18 Jul 20 - 05:47 AM

So, no answer then, Jim?You havenít the honesty or the balls to admit that Corbynís Labour was unelectable, you havenít a clue how to make Labour electable.

Why am I not surprised? What is that saying about Ďempty vesselsí...?


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: The Sandman
Date: 18 Jul 20 - 05:46 AM

Hank for leader of the labour party , we could all dance to apache.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Jul 20 - 05:37 AM

"Youíve both sidestepped both questions"
I'll be happy to answer any of your questions when you start answering mine Baccie
I made the point of Starmer betraying the Labour Party by accusing a cabinet member of antisemitism and sacking her way, way up on this thread - you have yet to give a straight answer to that
You really can't demand answers and behave like that
Your question was well answered as far as I am concerned - the Labour Party needs a leader that can be trusted - this felleer has shown he can't be
The Labour needs plicies that are distinguishable from those of the Tories - new Labour, who you appear to support (with your accusations of "leftie") has bur credit-card thickness between Labour and the rest of the main parties
Corbyn gave the genuine supportes of Labour policies a reason to hope things would get better =- the leader you are pimping for has destroyed hat hope -
You, Dave and the "lefties" accusers blame the people - saying that's what they want - that't what the Tories and the Populists do
I've shown yo mine, let's have a look at yours
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 18 Jul 20 - 05:34 AM

I have to wonder whether this discussion is representative of the whole Labour Party.
The Conservatives here step back from the discussion, so the Labour supporters start kicking each other instead.
To quote Abe Lincoln: "A house divided against itself, cannot stand.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: The Sandman
Date: 18 Jul 20 - 05:17 AM

Perhaps Hank Marvin should be leader of the labour party, the shadows dance is sure to win elections


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 18 Jul 20 - 05:02 AM

Jim, Steve, I asked you two straight, simple questions, with a request for you to refrain from obfuscation. Youíve both sidestepped both questions. Now be honest for once, and answer the questions. Here they are again...

1) Given the Toriesí landslide win in the GE, with an overall majority of 81, and in view of the desertion of large numbers of former Labour voters, do you agree with that piece of irrefutable evidence that Labour under Corbyn was unelectable.

2) What are your strategies for making Labour electable in the future?

No ifs, no buts, no word-twisting, no answering questions with questions - in short, no horse-shit - just straight answers to two straight questions.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Jul 20 - 04:50 AM

"Jim and Steve are proving to be the best friends these bastard Tories have, arenít they?"
No Baccie
Those supporting starmersd swinging teh party to the right and calling their Labour Party comrades "lefties" (as an insult) are doing just that
Starmer had lowered the party to the bumwipe press level by suggesting that it has a serious antisemitism problem - as have those who refusing to condemn him for doing so
Just what Johnson needs now is a weakened Labour Party at each others throats - that what Starmer has given him - on a plate
MAYBE THE GUARDIAN IS TOO "LEFTIE" FOR SOME PEOPLE
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Jul 20 - 04:34 AM

John, this country has four years in which to see the weaknesses of this man. He is not brave enough to take anyone on. He needs to show that he is vehemently anti-populist and will do incredibly unpopular things to make this country a civilised place again. He needs the charisma to make the Murdoch press sit up and think, hello, we'd better back this bloke because he looks like a winner. We need a Blair but with principles. It will be someone as yet untried, but we'll have to keep our eyes skinned for the next few years. Sure, we can get behind the current bloke, vote for him and grasp at the straw that he'll win and be the slightly lesser of two evils. But that won't happen. The Israeli regime and the Board Of Deputies have seen how weak he is and he'll keep on doing the things that he thinks will assuage them. A follower not a leader. If you don't think the public will see through that...

The next election is likely to be between Starmer and Sunak. And you think we have a cat in hell's chance with that... One more heave again, eh?


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 18 Jul 20 - 04:24 AM

Yep, DMcG, Jim and Steve are proving to be the best friends these bastard Tories have, arenít they?


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: DMcG
Date: 18 Jul 20 - 04:04 AM

I go back to my earlier point, Jim. I see a focus on Starmer to the exclusion of all the other things happening in UK politics disappointing. At a very rough assessment based on the 50-page size of Mudcat, we have now spent something like 170 posts talking about little else. Meanwhile all the other antics of the Government get ignored. Not good, in my view. And, I would guess, exactly what the Government would like us to do.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 18 Jul 20 - 03:54 AM

Jim, Steve, two straight questions for you both:-

1) Given the Toriesí landslide win in the GE, with an overall majority of 81, and in view of the desertion of large numbers of former Labour voters, do you agree with that piece of irrefutable evidence that Labour under Corbyn was unelectable.

2) What are your strategies for making Labour electable in the future?

No ifs, no buts, no word-twisting, no answering questions with questions - in short, no horse-shit - just straight answers to two straight questions please.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Jul 20 - 03:47 AM

Sorry Mac - The BBC is not generous enough to allow us in Ireland to listen to what they have to say - I can't open it
Satrmer said what I heard him say - it seemed clear enough to me
I have no intention of being bogged down in this particular issue - there are far more important ones
Does it not concern you that this leader has joined those in claiming there to be an anti-semitism problem to the extent of sacking a shadow cabinet member for daring to criticise Israel's involvement in training American policemen who are killing blacks ?
He is so determined to do this he has split the Labour Party in orer to appease the extreme right within its ranks
Try addressing that fact - any of you now urging us to support this man
Incidentally, those members who say they don't know if Labour has a serious antisemitism problem appear to be suggesting it might have - there is enough evidence to the contrary for those who care to look for it
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: DMcG
Date: 18 Jul 20 - 03:23 AM

I have linked to the news article, Jim. Starmer is something like 36 seconds in. As always, I invite people to make their own judgement, not to rely on mine.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Jul 20 - 03:15 AM

That's not the impression I got - if the people do not have confidence, then why encourage them to back it ?
I spoke to my sister again last night - Liverpool is in utter confusion; on the one hand they are being encouraged to go back to work, on the other Lancashire is being threatened with a similar lock-down to that of Leicestershire - asking people to back that is uter suicidal madness
That's what I heard from Starmer
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: DMcG
Date: 18 Jul 20 - 03:00 AM

As I said, I thought knowing exactly what Starmer said was important, so here is the transcript of what he said on the BBC Six o'clock news last night, via iPlayer (opening minute or two):

The key now is confidence. Do the public have confidence in the measures the government have put in place? Do businesses have confidence in the advice that is being given?

Moreover, the tone of voice was very much that he did not think they did have that confidence. People will differ, but to me that is better interpreted as him saying the government plans are inadequate, rather than they are fine and we must all back them.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Jul 20 - 02:35 AM

We're all sick to death of a series of Conservative Governments - whether call themselves "Conservative" or "Labour"
I want a Labour Pary which fights on Labour principles - not another Brown or Blair or Wilson Government
The fact that Labour is back in the hands of the right is not going to get that
If another Labour-wannabe Tory Government is elected the Party is finished, it never gets more simple than that - electing Starmeris a step in that direction
Yesterday the man says we must all back Johnson's leadership over Covid - is that not plain enough for anybody to realise the direction he will take the Party in ?
The first major public action he took is to sell the Party's reputation out in an attempt to win back 'Friends of Israel' who left because Corbyn refused to back that state's ethnic cleansing policy
He was prepared to split the party in order to get those people and the New Labour anti-Corbynites back on board
Is that the type of Party you want to put into power - I ***** don't

Johnson will be replaced anyway - he's a buffoon and a figure of fun, even to the right-wing press
Big business with look for a "hard" leader capably of forcing through the re-opening of Britain, no matter what the risk to people's lives - Johnson has proved himself willing to do that but he lacks the authority - Starmer has publicly backed him
Can't you people see the writing on the wall
The Lablour Party has long needed a leader with the prionciples and the ability to steer Labour into becoming a half-decent, genuine opposition to what has been happening basically since the arrival of Thatcher on the scene - a Tory cap-doffer like Starmer fell at the first fence, got up and fell down at the next one
Sniding at the only decent, principled Party leader is only playing into the Tory's hands, as is attacking those in the Party who believe in the old Pary values
I've had enough of being accused of being an extremist or "a leftie" to last a lifetime without having to put up with it from people I once respected
Let's debate the real issues without the right-wing rhetoric for a change - please
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Jul 20 - 07:39 PM

You're sick of Tory governments, right? So you see this Gordon Brown/Ed Miliband cardboard cutout bloke as some kind of answer, eh? Well we have four years to go, and we've already seen this weak man pandering to the pro-Israel lobby and ditching his principles in order to sack a damn good prospect for the party. All that does is give succour to his adversaries in the press and the Board of Deputies to pounce ever more on every little bloody thing he says or isn't being seen to do at their behest. He simply can't and won't shake them off. Everybody on the planet knows that being good at PMQs is not wot the people of this country see as leader material. In the current climate, cheap populism trumps stuff like that every time, and the Daily Mail will always see to that. Having an orgasm because you think that Keir has demolished Boris at the despatch box is infantile. And, for Christ's sake, he is so BORING. Man in suit. I desperately want to be wrong, but the party is simply repeating historic failure. In the seventies I used to parrot on about how the country needed "a socialist alternative." I've changed my mind about that, and, though all my instincts are socialist ones, I want to replace socialist" with "genuine." Not Tory-lite, thanks.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 17 Jul 20 - 04:28 PM

Jim, for the love of God, how many fucking times do I have to say it before you get it through your head?

1) Iím sick to death of the succession of Conservative governments weíve had for the past ten years, and the damage they have inflicted on this country, especially on the most vulnerable members of society.

2) I want a Labour government.

3) I believe that any Labour government is better than any Conservative government, irrespective of leader.

4) To use your words, ďSomething has to changeĒ. The Labour Party is the only party capable of bringing change IMHO, but that canít happen unless and until it achieves a majority in a GE. In opposition, and with an 81-seat deficit, it is impotent.

4) Iím not a party member, I have no vote in party leadership elections but, like everyone I guess, I have personal preferences.

5) I didnít want Corbyn as leader but, when he was democratically elected by the party membership, I gave him the respect he deserved in that position, spoke in support of him, and voted for my Labour candidate at the 2019 GE. My doubts about Corbynís suitability for the position of leader were validated by the unmitigated disaster of the election - the Labour Party under Corbyn was unelectable.

6) I didnít want Starmer as leader, my preference came third in the election but, Starmer having been democratically elected by the party membership, I give him the respect he deserves in that position, I speak in support of him, and I will vote for my Labour candidate in the next GE, whenever that may be. Itís an old-fashioned concept called ĎLoyaltyí, and I live in hope that he will be able to make the party electable once again..

7) it seems to me that the very people who screamed blue-murder about the treachery and back-stabbing that went on against Corbyn are the self-same ones who are now undermining and displaying similar treachery against Starmer. Treachery is treachery, no matter which side the perpetrator of that treachery is on. Think on that.

8) In his first period as leader, Starmer has achieved something that Corbyn never could - he has outwitted and out-debated the Conservative leader at PMQs, and clearly demonstrated that arm-waving, big words, and bluster are all Johnsonís got. Starmer has four more years to organise, formulate policies, and devise a a strategy to neutralise the Tory Propaganda and Smear Campaigns that will undoubtedly increase in intensity the closer we get to an election. Iím prepared to give him the chance to do that.

9) To bring about change, the Labour Party has to be electable. Under Corbyn, for whatever reasons, it was unelectable. I hope that under the new leader it will become electable once more.

Now thatís your lot. Instead of firing off questions at all and sundry and demanding that they explain themselves, letís hear your brilliant master-plan for creating a successful Socialist State in the UK.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 17 Jul 20 - 04:27 PM

:-D


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 17 Jul 20 - 04:02 PM

Well.. Maybe Barb'ry could then make a surprise return, and start a new fresh thread for us...???


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 17 Jul 20 - 03:55 PM

We all know how this goes now. Jim asks for answers to questions he has either not asked or has had answers to before. He then gets shirty and accuses everyone disagreeing with him of a) being right wing, b) having the favour of the mods or c) suppoting Israel. The situation then gets out of hand and the insults start flying. The thread is then closed.

Any takers for 10 to 1 on?


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 17 Jul 20 - 03:49 PM

"Tired and disillusioned ex socialists sneering at the ideals of Socialism "

"PFR has expressed his contempt for socialist ideals "

Jim - I'll tell you the same, I tell Ake and anyone else
who deliberately misconstrue what I say,
blatantly shoehorning it into fitting their bias..

You are talking flagrant bollocks.. [definitely not fragrant...]

My answer is NO, to all the tripe I have just quoted from you..

You are wrong to even think that of me...

Principles and theory are all well and good to guide how we aspire to interact with the real world...

But mostly only immature naive young idealists see them as absolutely dogmatically set in stone rules,
irrespective of the realities of this cruel brutal ruthless world we try to survive in...

It is inflexible doctrinaire folks like you who can't stop themselves handing victory
to our right wing opponents...

They want more loose canon lefties like you to assist in their divide and rule...


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Jul 20 - 03:26 PM

Incidentally Baccie
This is the umpteenth time you have made an attack on Left wing politics - PFR has expressed his contempt for socialist ideals "tooth fairy" et al
Elsewhere there have been demands for "moderacy" - as if anything that has been suggested has been "immoderate
Where do you people Labour's politics should lie exactly
I find some of these arguments indistinguishable
Perhaps if we could establish where people stand politically themselves i wwe are going to understand each other
I have never uttered a single extremist view on what I believe, but I come away thinking I might not have been concentrating and have suggested storming Westminster and string up all its occupants
What exactly to you people have against socialist ideals to make you believe them to be so extreme ?
It's a bit late in the day to expect answers but who knows..... Crappy television programmes beckon
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Jul 20 - 02:55 PM

"We have Starmer for leader.!"
Is that a confession ?
I know who the leader is and I know what he has done
Any member otr supporter of a party who thinks discussing their leaders behaviour is pointless can't have much regard for that party's ethics or principles
You have neither denied nor explained his bahaviour to date
Sorry - I think I've made my point as you have yet to make yours
Interesting to see Labour supporters now participating in the same kicking match that the right-wing media launched into shortly after he arrived
Politics makes strange bedfellows eh ?
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 17 Jul 20 - 02:47 PM

I haven't one Dave - what's yours?

We have Starmer for leader. I plan to get behind him until either Labour is back in power or the leadership changes. Whether I agree with him or not he is what we have and, for now, the only chance we have.

If you haven't one, why should you expect anybody else to have one ?

I do have one. As stated above. I expect anyone who disagrees with something to have an alternative.

Corbyn didn't "fail" - he was crushed into silence by the situation,

So he didn't have either the courage of guile to fight as dirty as they did. Admirable in the man but fatal in politics. If he didn't fail, why is he not currently residing at number 10?

makes him a ruthlessly dishonest politician

Sadly, at present, that is what seems to win elections.

When you find this place where politicians are honest, Socialism is a viable alternative and the press are fair, let me know. I'll book my ticket.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 17 Jul 20 - 01:49 PM

Your questions are pointless, Jim, entrenched as they are in Left-Wing ideology and rhetoric which bears no relationship to the thinking and views of the majority of Labour-voters - and before you ask how could I possibly know that, I refer you to November 2019, the worst landslide Labour defeat in living memory presided over by your Golden Boy, the huge number of former Labour voters who deserted because they couldnít vote for Corbyn, and the 81-seat Conservative majority that has made the Labour Party a complete irrelevance for at least the next four years.

Get a bloody grip man.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Jul 20 - 01:48 PM

"Google isn't showing that phrase as anything Starmer said, "
I,ve just watched it on the BBC six oclock news - maybe Google can't get BBC
That is more or less word-for-word what he said
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: DMcG
Date: 17 Jul 20 - 01:31 PM

Google isn't showing that phrase as anything Starmer said, and I haven't found it in Hansard. Of course Google might not have indexed it yet, so can you give a link to where he said it? The exact phrasing of the original is important. For example, if he said Johnson needs to put forward a plan for the way ahead that we can all have confidence in, it would have a very different meaning. So if possible, a link to the full text where he said it, rather than a journalist's interpretation.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Jul 20 - 01:12 PM

No Baccie - tha last refuge is not answering any of the questions asked
"stabbed in the back"
Maybe so, but that is not indicated by the tenor of the attacks
We have discussed ad-nauseum the appalling way theis government of clowns has mishandled the pandemic - no-one, as I remember, has disagreed
The press, lefyt and right have condemned it, medical experts have done the same.
Starmer has just publicly announced that "the way ahead is to have confidence in the measures put into place by Johnson's Government"
Anybody like to square that particular circle ?
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 17 Jul 20 - 01:02 PM

"Someone asked a while back what was your plan to get rid of the Tories, Jim. What is it?"
I haven't one Dave - what's yours?
If you haven't one, why should you expect anybody else to have one ?Ē


The last refuge of a scoundrel - Ďansweringí a question with a question.

Anybody can determine that thereís a problem - itís childishly simple. Coming up with the solution is the difficult bit. Not as clever as youíd like us all to believe then?


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 17 Jul 20 - 12:50 PM

Jim - as always your analysis and historical perspective is admirably spot on.

But it's your conclusions and prescriptions that tend to go a bit amiss..

It should be obvious that any right wing media attacks on Boris,
are merely paving the way for him to be stabbed in the back
and replaced by gove,
or some other rival ruthless tory villain burning with ambition to be PM..


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Jul 20 - 12:27 PM

"Someone asked a while back what was your plan to get rid of the Tories, Jim. What is it?"
I haven't one Dave - what's yours?
If you haven't one, why should you expect anybody else to have one ?

Corbyn didn't "fail" - he was crushed into silence by the situation, by a virulent campaign by the establishment and their toadies in the media - he left with his ideals intact, having tried his best
The fact that he drew the support he did
That was the first sortie in a long battle - the fact that he drew the support he did as quickly as he did is an indication that not everyone has grown old and lost the dream - they have my best wishes
Tired and disillusioned ex socialists sneering at the ideals of Socialism is going to bring about the end of the Labour Party as a vehicle for change
If Starmer manages to reintroduce New Labour back into the Party, as he obviously aims to, the Party will have failed - not those with the balls try
He's already made his intentions perfectly clear in sucking up to the right of the Pary y sacking those who might rock the boat
His extremely selective take on accusations of antisemitism makes him a ruthlessly dishonest politician - the fact that is it done to appease the "Friends" if an extremist right-wing State which is working cheek-by-jowl with the nutter in Pennsylvania Avenue doesn't auger well for either Britain or the party
Things are changing rapidly in Britain - Brexit and the damage done by the Pandemic has guaranteed that, without a decent opposition, that is going to last for a long-long time

I've taken to reading the right-wing press more than I ever did (for various reasons) - I have never seen a Tory leader under attack from every quarter as Johnson is at present - it is second only to the attacks made on Corbyn
The limp-wristed wafle from the leader of the opposition is a bloody disgrace to any half-decent progressive party in my recollection
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 17 Jul 20 - 10:27 AM

Someone asked a while back what was your plan to get rid of the Tories, Jim. What is it? "Something will have to change" and "socialism has not been tried" are not plans. We tried Corbyn. That didn't work. Starmer has not been in office long enough. Give us your alternative.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 17 Jul 20 - 10:00 AM

"Who says socialiam doesn't stand a chance - not me ?"

Jim - sorry to have to be the one to break it to you like this,
but Santa, the Easter Bunny, and Tooth Fairy are never going to visit you either...

..and the second coming of Jesus is starting to look just as unlikely as well...

Wait.. what's that.. rumours that Elvis is about to make a come back...!!!???


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Jul 20 - 07:23 AM

I have never mentioned evil why compare yourself to the worst
Who says socialiam doesn't stand a chance - not me ?
Something positive has to replace what we have - why not a fair distribution of the world's benefits and rights - is that really too much to ask ?
I don't speak for other people - I have no idea what they would or would not stand for and it would be arrogant of me to claim otherwise
All you can do is argue your case
Despite claims to the contrary, socialism has never really been tried - aimed for, yes, but never achieved
For all the faults of those who tried it, it achieved comparative miracles over comparatively short periods - backward peasant nations into world contenders, in some cases
The willing sacrifices of the people of the Soviet Union show fairly clearly that those who lived there were, up to a point, prepared to bite the bullet to make their lives better

"Milliband"
It really is time we moved from speculating on personalities - most of these leaders have proved to have clay feet
It's long-term objectives rat have to count if the world is to survive now
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Raggytash
Date: 17 Jul 20 - 07:23 AM

The reality of the situation is quite simple.

Whichever leader Labour puts forward he or she will be vilified by the media, they will be torn apart as Corbyn was.

The merely fact that many of us here thought Corbyn to be a decent man did not get him into power. Nor will it ever do so.

So, the question has to be how do we get a Labour leader into power.

Unfortunately that mean electing someone like Blair to the leadership. We may not like it but unless we do we face spending decades as opposition.

That is the reality.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 17 Jul 20 - 04:47 AM

I've forgotten if Miliband was any use,
or if he would have stood with, or stood up to, the antisemitism false accusers...


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 17 Jul 20 - 04:38 AM

I was hoping Corbyn would be in place long enough to mentor a younger successor
with his principles,
but none of his historic baggage - which the tory media would exploit
to discredit him.

Unfortunately Corbyn got pushed prematurely into an election...


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