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BS: UK thread, Politics and political

Steve Shaw 20 Jul 20 - 03:35 PM
punkfolkrocker 20 Jul 20 - 03:31 PM
punkfolkrocker 20 Jul 20 - 03:03 PM
Donuel 20 Jul 20 - 02:55 PM
punkfolkrocker 20 Jul 20 - 02:44 PM
Jim Carroll 20 Jul 20 - 02:30 PM
The Sandman 20 Jul 20 - 02:25 PM
Backwoodsman 20 Jul 20 - 02:04 PM
Jim Carroll 20 Jul 20 - 01:05 PM
Backwoodsman 20 Jul 20 - 11:56 AM
Dave the Gnome 20 Jul 20 - 11:42 AM
Jim Carroll 20 Jul 20 - 11:40 AM
Jim Carroll 20 Jul 20 - 11:35 AM
Backwoodsman 20 Jul 20 - 11:24 AM
peteglasgow 20 Jul 20 - 10:58 AM
Jim Carroll 20 Jul 20 - 10:56 AM
Dave the Gnome 20 Jul 20 - 10:44 AM
Jim Carroll 20 Jul 20 - 10:09 AM
The Sandman 20 Jul 20 - 10:09 AM
Jim Carroll 20 Jul 20 - 10:01 AM
Dave the Gnome 20 Jul 20 - 09:56 AM
Backwoodsman 20 Jul 20 - 09:28 AM
peteglasgow 20 Jul 20 - 09:08 AM
peteglasgow 20 Jul 20 - 09:07 AM
Raggytash 20 Jul 20 - 07:51 AM
Jim Carroll 20 Jul 20 - 07:35 AM
Raggytash 20 Jul 20 - 07:23 AM
Nigel Parsons 20 Jul 20 - 07:13 AM
peteglasgow 20 Jul 20 - 06:39 AM
Jim Carroll 20 Jul 20 - 06:31 AM
Backwoodsman 20 Jul 20 - 05:56 AM
Jim Carroll 20 Jul 20 - 05:44 AM
peteglasgow 20 Jul 20 - 05:29 AM
Nigel Parsons 20 Jul 20 - 05:03 AM
Jim Carroll 20 Jul 20 - 04:45 AM
Backwoodsman 20 Jul 20 - 03:05 AM
Jim Carroll 20 Jul 20 - 02:50 AM
Dave the Gnome 19 Jul 20 - 09:16 AM
Steve Shaw 19 Jul 20 - 09:15 AM
punkfolkrocker 19 Jul 20 - 08:45 AM
The Sandman 19 Jul 20 - 04:36 AM
Jim Carroll 19 Jul 20 - 03:52 AM
DMcG 19 Jul 20 - 03:25 AM
Backwoodsman 19 Jul 20 - 03:20 AM
DMcG 19 Jul 20 - 03:11 AM
Jim Carroll 19 Jul 20 - 02:56 AM
The Sandman 19 Jul 20 - 01:46 AM
Jim Carroll 18 Jul 20 - 07:51 PM
Backwoodsman 18 Jul 20 - 03:13 PM
punkfolkrocker 18 Jul 20 - 03:10 PM
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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Jul 20 - 03:35 PM

Jim's analysis of politics in this country is thorough and pretty sound. I can find very little to disagree with. I don't go along with his approach to the rest of you and it would be good if he took a small step back.

However, you are now rounding on him like a pack of bullies, in a way you don't round on me when I make exactly the same points about Starmer that he does, and, because you know how he'll respond and are getting precisely what you expect, you are making the situation a damn sight worse. I'm amazed at your capacity for brutal insult, John, even though I know how to rile you about those noisy and useless shitting machines known as "dogs." You have no right to tell him that his opinion about this country's politics don't count just because he doesn't live here any more. We live in a big global village these days and what we do here impacts people all over the world. I've expressed opinions here about Dubya, Xi, Netanyahu, Trump, various popes and many another, I've been vehemently disagreed with, insulted and even threatened with banishment but I've never been told that I'm disqualified from commenting because "I don't live there." That's a resort way too far. If Jim needs to take a small step back, some of us need to take a bloody big step back. You didn't even treat Iains, a far-right plant, as badly as this. Nothing like. Jim is on our side, the main difference being that he isn't up for compromise, and he puts up a valiant argument as to why we shouldn't, most of the time. He's setting his principle against your expediency, you don't like it, but that's how he is. And there is validity in that.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 20 Jul 20 - 03:31 PM

Donny - I personally invite Jim to continue in this thread
out of friendliness, [which he is straining] when he's come to his senses..
I believe other British mudcatters feel similarly, and would do likewise..

I'm also fairly certain most of us do not welcome your gratuitous shit stirring interfering intrusions;
and I'm sure some would not be as polite in asking you to keep out of our British thread...


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 20 Jul 20 - 03:03 PM

Donny - is America so fed up with you, they sent you over here
to act like an irritating pillock...


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Donuel
Date: 20 Jul 20 - 02:55 PM

No he hasn't. My time isn't wasted. Who invites WHO back?


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 20 Jul 20 - 02:44 PM

Jim - you have worked yourself up again into a state of blustering mania..

You are wasting all our time...


"long-term hopes that right-wingers like PFR pour such contempt on"

You can shove that nonsense up where it will bring you most discomfort.. Comrade Jimski...

If you eventually come back down to earth
from this mega tantrum,
hopefully you might realise how much you have pissed off your mudcat mates
with such rampant silliness...

For the moment, at least try to stop spamming this thread
with your distracting ridiculous repeated misunderstandings and condemnations...

We have far more important concerns to contend with,
which require intelligent mature debate..

You are invited to join in when you calm back down...


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Jul 20 - 02:30 PM

You appointed yourels a spoleseman for all as well as demanding a passport on entry now ?
You have personally abused and isulted since I first challenged you - I have not
That you are uncomfortable at being put on the spot seems to go with the territory
The solution is simple - destroy my arguments with your erudition and superiority - they are simple enough
Why should we trust a Labour leader who has sold his party out to supporters of an extremist foreign power ?
I won't ask you too prove your accusations with any sort of examples - I've long ceased to expect that sort of thing from some people
NICE BIT OF SUMMING UP HERE
The author of the article is a long term Labour Pary memmber who has recently resigned in disgust at the appeasement to 'The Friends of Israel'
As somebody has already saidm "he won't be the last"
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: The Sandman
Date: 20 Jul 20 - 02:25 PM

i joined the labour party when Corbyn became prime minster.I have since left, i know of friends of mine who have also left they intend to vote green.
it is pure speculation as to whether Starmer will win an election , my guess[ and this too is speculation] is that the best that will be achieved is lab lib coalition, that there will be not one party that has an overall majority, and then the deal will be proprtional representation for the liberals.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 20 Jul 20 - 02:04 PM

No Jim, people who have good intentions and a deep longing to see the back of this dreadful Tory government are getting sick and tired of you dominating every thread you enter with your ranting, your high-handed pontificating, your talking down to them, your ripping into them because they see the world through different eyes to yours, accusing them of saying things they haven’t said, twisting the things they have said, demanding they answer any and every question you choose to fire off at them, and lots more.

For fuck’s sake, give your daft head a wobble and take a bloody good look at your appalling behaviour. You’re a bloody embarrassment.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Jul 20 - 01:05 PM

" you have no vote in this country."
Rule Britannia eh ?
Musyt be careful none of us criticise Trump or Assad then

Go look what he said about Socialism Dave - I don't exopect that contempt from left wingers I'm afraid
It seems you have finally resiorted to childish name-valling - a lot of slipping masks
Jay-sus !!!
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 20 Jul 20 - 11:56 AM

You can shove your birth certificate where the sun don’t shine Jim - you have no vote in this country. Therefore your opinions are irrelevant, they carry no weight whatsoever, no matter how often and how hard you try to ram them down other people’s throats.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 Jul 20 - 11:42 AM

Right wingers like PFR? I'm sure he will be thrilled to be called this by a right whinger like you, Jim.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Jul 20 - 11:40 AM

"And what anyone who doesn’t even live in the U.K. thinks about it is irrelevant."
Oh dear - now thae was a nesty bout of deja-vous
I really did think we'd seen the back of that lever of snide
Must go and find my birth certificate in case someone asks me to produce it
Down, down, down we go.....
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Jul 20 - 11:35 AM

"i have already said i thought it was wrong to sack (or whatever) rebecca long-bailey. "
If you are supporting the man who sacked her your opposing her sacking is little more than lip-service
The implications of her being sacked for sayiny what she said reach far beyond the individuals concerned - it is a classic example of someone being disciplined "as a warning to others" and it an action to appease the extreme right within the party
In doing this Starmer has gone with the flow and said that criticising Israel is "antisemitic", whic is, by definition, and antisemitic suggestion
Labour is now part of that
Can I make my own position clear - I am philosophically of the left - Scocailism is a dream for the future and it's certainly not going to happen in my lifetime
I believe in following the path that Labour was first set up for - to better the general lot of working people in Britain - is achievable in the short term
I was a trades unionist and fould for better conditions at work - sometimes we won
I went on Peace marches, anti-Aparhied and anti racist demonstrations, I supported the Miners... none of this was calling for revolution - it was all to do with what was happening at the rime
That was all short term and essential stuff, I believed
Nothing has changed in that except there are more nearer to home things to fight for
None of this has anything to do with the long-term hopes that right-wingers like PFR pour such contempt on - they are bread and butter issues
THis pandemic is having an odd effect on society - a few months ago the killing of a black man took on world-wide proportions and escalated into demands that our nations face up to their histories - slavery, racism, the exploitation of weaker peoples
That spirit of rebellion is set fair to accelerate as the situation created by Covid begins to bite
Ordinary people are going to be asked to bear the brunt of this mess and that is going to come from Westminster - if you believe Starmer is going to offer any opposition to it you are biger dreamers than you accuse me of being
Anybody who compromises with a State as extreme as Israal (as Starmer has) is going to have no trouble with compromising with the Tories
Watch this space
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 20 Jul 20 - 11:24 AM

”The current state of the government is what keeps me active in the labour party - it is still the only hope for the decent people in england“

Precisely what I’ve been saying and getting my balls kicked for, Pete. We need a Labour government, and Labour members, supporters, and voters should be getting behind the party and its democratically-elected Leader, and pulling together to bring it about.

And what anyone who doesn’t even live in the U.K. thinks about it is irrelevant.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: peteglasgow
Date: 20 Jul 20 - 10:58 AM

i have already said i thought it was wrong to sack (or whatever) rebecca long-bailey. for what it's worth i thought it was wrong to expel alistair campbell for voting in greeen in the euro elections. many people voted (inc. me) voted green but no-one else was expelled from the party - so just a gesture, really to sexpel AC.

i've always been on the left of the party (during the times when i havn't yet stomped off in a huff (3 times at last count)) and have happily supported green policies, anti-nuclear (a big deal in cumbria) and scottish independence - while criticising the scottish labour party. no-one has ever given me a hard time about my beliefs.

the current state of the government is what keeps me active in the labour party - it is still the only hope for the decent people in england


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Jul 20 - 10:56 AM

COINCIDENCE MAYBE NIGEL
China's civil rights have been an issue since at least Tienanmen Square
A Britain who can send a prime minister to the Arab states while a jornalist is being administered 1000 lashes for speaking his mind doesn't give a toss for civil rights if it gets in the way of its trade and commercial interests
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 Jul 20 - 10:44 AM

I think not, Dick. It was not UKIP voters that swung to Tory that won it but the loss of the heartland Labour vote. Even if the 'pact with Brexiteers' was a major factor, any politician worth his salt could have capitalised on the disarray caused by Brexit. Corbyn didn't.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Jul 20 - 10:09 AM

That should have read "sacked from office" of course - nobody has been exxpelled yet, but if Starmer gate his way, we will witness all those who joined the Party when Corbyn became leader being accused of "infiltration" as has happened under previous Labour leaderships when Socialism was mentioned too loudly
INTERESTING ARTICAL HERE
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: The Sandman
Date: 20 Jul 20 - 10:09 AM

dave ,back wood raggy
you know that a major part of th reason for the conservatives victory was a pact they had with brexiteers.
I am sure that if starmer had been in charge he would not have won either.
i think the best that can be hoped for is a labour lib coalition because Starmer does not appeal to working class bluecollar voters and left wingers may vote for the green party


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Jul 20 - 10:01 AM

" i don't think you are listening jim."
Listening to what exactly
Are you saying Starmer was justified in sacking his minister or are you one of those who refuses to answer ?
You may ignore me, but the facts will remain - answered or unanswered
Labour has floundered and blundered through Parliamentary Politics for as long as I have been interested
Harold Wilson was the first leader I experienced - he was bad enough but he was a revolutionary compared to what was to follow
Left politics hasn't been a part of Labour thinking since the post-war Government when it rebuilt Britain
Abandoning principles has proved an utter disaster - they became as untrustworthy as the Tories
How is Starmer any different ?
He may be of a different character than Johnson, butt the end result will be the same - a growing disollusionment with party politics
There - another question which will not be answered - more to come

By the way
Livingstone quite - he wasn't expelled
CHIIS WILLIAMSON
Clive Lewis Pulled out of the leadership race
None of these were expelled by a leader of the party as Starmer has done
I think it's somebody else who isn't listening
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 Jul 20 - 09:56 AM

The Labour Paaary was undergoing a well-needed (in my opinion) change under Corbyn - basically, a return to core values - and it was working

You consider losing a general election by the biggest margin in decades working? As countless people have pointed out, to enable the changes that Corbyn was proposing the Labour party needs to be in power. It isn't. As much as I like the guy, what he stood for and what he proposed I have to admit that the Corbyn experiment has failed. Get over it.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 20 Jul 20 - 09:28 AM

”all of us in the Judean people's front, people's front of judea and all other previously stomped out mini-groups of splitters need to get a grip and to try to forge some solidarity to fight the dangers we face.”

Isn’t that what I’ve been saying all along, and getting my balls kicked for saying it?


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: peteglasgow
Date: 20 Jul 20 - 09:08 AM

i can only think of one person who would really be enjoying this thread.....


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: peteglasgow
Date: 20 Jul 20 - 09:07 AM

ken livingstone.....chris williamson.....clive lewis? there may be more. i don't think you are listening jim. it would be a real shame for us to go on with this 'i'm done with you.....i'm ignoring you....' nonsense. we have been here before and it's really tedious and depressing. all of us in the Judean people's front, people's front of judea and all other previously stomped out mini-groups of splitters need to get a grip and to try to forge some solidarity to fight the dangers we face.

and don't give me this keir starmer is just the same as boris johnson stuff. you know it ain't so...


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Raggytash
Date: 20 Jul 20 - 07:51 AM

I would care to point nothing out to you at all. You don't listen.

In the past few weeks you have not only pissed me off completely, you have done to same to DtG and now Backwoodsman and Punkfolkrocker.

You are rapidly running out of people who have supported you in the past and your too fucking arrogant to realise it.

Very soon you will be completely on your own. A pariah.

Before you reply with your usual invective take some time to consider what I have written.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Jul 20 - 07:35 AM

How many of those were unfairly dismissed for telling the truth Rag
The party was already split and as has been pointed out by Nigel, has been ofor a long ime
What Corbyn tried to do was not to put his own twist on the Party but to re-introduce the reasons the Party had been created in the first place
The overall effect was to inctrease the membership of the Party
Perhaps you'd care to point out any unfair or self-serving dismissals that took place
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Raggytash
Date: 20 Jul 20 - 07:23 AM

Could someone please remind me just how many Labour Party cabinet members resigned or were sacked by Corbyn when he first became leader.

Just to see a balance about "splitting the party" you understand.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 20 Jul 20 - 07:13 AM

Up to last week Britain was determined to go ahead with the Huawei deal, no matter what Trump thought - now he puts his foot down and the deal is gone.
Whatever the rights and wrongs of China, it has not changed - Trump is now calling the shots on Britain's economy


Up to last week some were determined to go ahead. There were already calls from within the Conservative Party to re-think the decision. The decision to go ahead with Huawei was taken before China decided that Britain no longer had any say/responsibility with regard to Hong Kong. I believe that it is the situation in Hong Kong/China (including with the Uighurs) that has caused a pause, and a re-think, not anything Trump has done/said.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: peteglasgow
Date: 20 Jul 20 - 06:39 AM

corbyn made it clear that he sacked mps in the labour party to appease the friends of israel and the right wing press.....same party same crap. except maybe keir starmer is doing the same dirty work but in a media savvy way.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Jul 20 - 06:31 AM

Nigel
That reference to 'the right' was not meant to be a pop at you by the way
I've always disageed with you, but that's a long way from associating you with the 'Johnson/Trump' mentalist that is now dominating your party
I've always regarded you as s Tory idealist rather that an advocate of the woest aspects of Toryism - feel happy yo make me wrong
After the last but one French election, Marine LePen called for a consolidation of world-wide right wing forces - recently there have been signs that this is beginning to happen - under Trump
Up to las week Britain was determined to go ahead with the Huawei deal, no matter what Trump thought - now he puts his foot down and the deal is gone
Whatever the rights and wrongs of China, it has not changed - Trump is now calling the shots on Britain's economey

I read this morning that Israel's in intention to annex the Occupied Territories has run into a snag - Netanyahu is awaiting the go-ahead from Trump
This is dangerous concerted extreme right politicking
Starmer has made it clear that he sacked his minister to appease 'The Friends of Israel' within the Labour Party - this involving the Party in the new International consolidation
Dangerous times indeed

Sorry Baccie - I've had enough of you and your mindless personal abuse - go find another victim
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 20 Jul 20 - 05:56 AM

”If I "have always been like this" can I remind you we got on quite well until I began to disagree with what you say - now, all of a sudden, I have become "bombastic, know-all, word-twisting, deliberately provocative."
What's taken you so long to notice that?”


I made allowances for you Jim, I thought “It’s just Jim being Jim”. But you’ve decided to dump your shitty attitude on your friends for no other reason that they don’t see the world through your rabid Left-Wing lens, and you don’t like it when they take umbrage at being lectured, having traps set for them, and non-stop demands being made that they ‘explain themselves‘ as though you’re some sort of Chief Inquisitor.

You’ve turned on your friends Jim. Absolutely shameful, disgusting treachery, and completely unforgivable.

Now fuck off, this is the last time I will respond to any of your horse-shit. Find someone else to victimise for nothing more than having the kind of sensible, balanced view that you clearly despise.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Jul 20 - 05:44 AM

The Labour Paaary was undergoing a well-needed (in my opinion) change under Corbyn - basically, a return to core values - and it was working
All of those groups who had been ousted by those wishing to turn the Party into something else returned in their drove
That is not really a 'split' - it's a way of healing old wounds
All parties are 'split' at present - Lib Dems have their members who yearn for the old days - your own Party is divided into those who support the traditionalists such as those who were surgically removed in the Brexit butchery
The Labour Party divisions pre-date Blair by decades - he was the catalyst
Far too many of those at the top were heavy-handed in removing the opposition to their leadership - this new feller is something else, and he comes at a bad time for the country
It is not time to appease the right anywhere - they are a dangerous lot - whatever shade they come in
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: peteglasgow
Date: 20 Jul 20 - 05:29 AM

fair enough, nigel. we shouldn't forget that jeremy corbyn - who i supported- pissed me off when he sacked chris williamson, clive lewis and ken livingstone. he did have principles and honesty but did not have the courage to take on the odious john mann, margaret hodge and others.

and while we are at it, i've long thought that england is in a mess because the tories dealt with farage by adopting rather than challenging his xenophobia and racism. it took a while to dawn on me that that has also been the unspoken tactic of the labour party in recent years. they didn't want to upset gammons and white working class men in northern towns. see where that got us......


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 20 Jul 20 - 05:03 AM

From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Jul 20 - 02:50 AM
If either of you had a case you would answer the simple questions I have put forward.
They boil down to this - the new leader of the Labour Party has started his career by splitting the party with the unprecedented and totally unjust action of sacking his running mate for supporting something that is true and in doing so has split the party,


As I see it (NOT being a member of the Labour Party), Sir Keir Starmer has not split the Labour Party, it was already split, and has been for some time (at least since Blair).

There's that question answered, so you don't need to keep hammering on at it.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Jul 20 - 04:45 AM

Mor unnecessary insulting and still not a single attempt to answer one of my questions
If I "have always been like this" can I remind you we got on quite well until I began to disagree with what you say - now, all of a sudden, I have become "bombastic, know-all, word-twisting, deliberately provocative."
What's taken you so long to notice that

You obviously are not going to attempt to respond to these questions which leaves me to the conclusion you haven't got any answers - if you had said so in the first place this unpleasantness need not have occurred
I have insulted no-one here, nor have I for a long time
You really need to look at your own behaviour before you criticise that of others

Let's see if anybody else cares to comment on what I have said
Somewhat sadly
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 20 Jul 20 - 03:05 AM

”Grow up - the pair of you - you never used to behave like this“

Sadly though, Jim, you have always behaved the way you’re doing now - bombastic, know-all, word-twisting, deliberately provocative. And, since your sparring-partner, Iains, has been suspended, you’ve turned your nasty, vicious, vitriolic attention to those who have tried to be your friends.

I’ve never been suspended from the forum for bad behaviour nor, as far as I know, has pfr. Can you truthfully say the same?

Judge not, lest ye be judged.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Jul 20 - 02:50 AM

If either hof you had a case you would answer the simple questions I have put forward.
They boil down to this - the new leader of the Labour Party has started his career by splitting the party with the unprecedented and totally unjust action of sacking his running mate for supporting something that is true and in doing so has split the party, is likely to drive out all those who joined when Corbyn came to office and stands to break the century old links with the Trades Union movement
I believe that such a ruthlessly dishonest individual is not fit to be leader of The Labour Party and should be replaced
That is how things stand at present, in my opinion - all the personal abuse in the world is not going to change my mind - in fact your behaviour convinces me of its accuracy
Grow up - the pair of you - you never used to behave like this

The Labour Party has been split and stands to be split more - you pair have chosen the saide that has destroyed it as an effective opposition and are arguing to return for blind obedianece to a pseudo Tory leadership again - we all know what that has done to it in the past
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 19 Jul 20 - 09:16 AM

PFR - There are some people who like to argue and entertain others with their arguments. There are some who like to argue and antagonize others. Then there are those who just argue for the sake of it. I suspect it you were to lock Jim in a room on his own he would argue with himself and still deny anything he disagreed with :-D


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Jul 20 - 09:15 AM

I find myself agreeing with Jim as well. My view is that it is 100% certain that Starmer would lose the next election in any case. I'll fight for him, of course, as a party member, but to me, even though I'll have to pretend it isn't, it's a lost cause. So that doubly means that I shouldn't be ditching my principles in order to pander to the Tory press and right-wing voters (and the pro-Israel lobby). If I were to do that I'd have nothing left after the next election.

"Btw.. I did warn that banning right wing members,
might probably lead to habitually argumentative mudcatters turning their invective
inwards onto mates on their own side..."

Well you can say that but you can't demonstrate cause and effect there. Perhaps you're saying it because you want to be right. I haven't particularly noticed any change, except for the far calmer atmosphere in these threads now than you-know-who has been banished.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 19 Jul 20 - 08:45 AM

Jim - I said what I meant.

Get off your high horse.
You are in no sound position to call anyone childish,
with your persistent immature pompous petulant behavior..

You are not as morally superior as you believe yourself to be.
You are in fact now becoming a useful idiot for the far right..
The kind of boorish extreme left zealot stereotype
who drove away vast numbers of working class ex Labour voters
towards the open welcoming arms of far right..

Not towards the Greens, but voting instead for populist boris and ukip...

I withdraw my noble Gorilla comparison..

You are now acting more like a chattering zoo monkey,
playing with itself for attention
in front of an unimpressed audience...

Only you can pull yourself up out of this self indulgent hole
you are obsessively digging for yourself...

You are hell bent on turning mates into enemies...!!!???



Btw.. I did warn that banning right wing members,
might probably lead to habitually argumentative mudcatters turning their invective
inwards onto mates on their own side...


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: The Sandman
Date: 19 Jul 20 - 04:36 AM

I am inclined to agree with Jim. Iknow people on the left in the uk who supported Corbyn, but now have decided to support the green party rather than starmer ,if this leads to a coalition and environmental issuesare implemented they feel this is more worth while.Dmc g , thanks for that info


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Jul 20 - 03:52 AM

"You’ve had them"
You know that's not true - you actually said I wasn't worth respond to
Try again
Why should we support a leader who sacks a senior minister for an "antisemitic tweet" everybody here has said isn't antisemitic - give me a reason o point me to an answer
That action has split the Labor Party and looks like losing the support of The Trades Unions - Labour's main contact with working people in Britain - the founders of the Labour Party and it's mainstay
Not only this, of course; in doing what he did, Starmer has implicated Labour in the antisemitism accusations by mor or less admitting that there is one
In what way is Starmer's behaviour in refusing to sack Steve Reed (for exactly the same behaviour as Long-Bailey) any different from Johnson's refusing to sack Cummings ?
We've slagged off Johnson yet you want us to support Starmer
Your starter for ten - without the childish name-calling, if possible

PFR somewhat childishly compered mt to a "silverback" - I'd be extremely flattered to be put up beside that magnificent creature if I took anything he said seriously any more
One of the great characteristics of that beautiful animal is it's dignity, calmness and its preparedness to fight to defend what it considers important
A little thin on the ground here
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: DMcG
Date: 19 Jul 20 - 03:25 AM

Coronavirus data to be made available to councils

About time too! I hope every else here has been lobbying for that as well as best they can under the current restrictions. All the councils have been saying they have been working with the proverbial one hand tied behind their back without postcode level data, and obviously they have. There is no way of having a local lock down unless you know the locality, for example: your only alternative is an unnecessarily wide one enclosing the outbreak but much else.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 19 Jul 20 - 03:20 AM

”You all have my arguments- where are yours ?“

You’ve had them, over and over again, but you’re not listening. You’re going to have to find another victim, I’m finished with you. From now on you can rant, preach, misquote, set your traps, and have the last word, to your heart’s content - I won’t be listening either.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: DMcG
Date: 19 Jul 20 - 03:11 AM

a) Tomorrow is the report stage and third reading of the trade bill. It will set the ground rules for what food can be imported, whether this nonsensical dual tariff system will be used, whether selling off parts of the NHS is off the table, and much else.

What it says will affect the future of every person and every business in the country.

The Tories, on page 57 of their manifesto, committed to ensuring the standards would not be reduced. This has been one of the few opportunities for those of us on the left to influence any Tory MP we have by getting them to stand by the commitment they were elected upon.

b) British Airways wants sack most of its staff and re-employ them on poorer contracts. Starmer opened PMQs by calling this out. As expected, the government is content with it and not surprisingly Centrica now wants to do the same, and we can expect a lot of other mass employers to follow.



These are the kind of things I want to discuss.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Jul 20 - 02:56 AM

"I used to hold you in such high regard too...."
Ditto until such things as - "I don’t give a flying fuck whether RL-B’s tweet was, or wasn’t, ‘anti-Semitic’
Surely the sacking of a senior minister should be of interest and concern of all members and supporters
Politicians get away with what they do because too many people "don't give a flying fuck" about too many important things
Corbyn looked as if he might change that - back to Blair's halcyon days, it would appear
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: The Sandman
Date: 19 Jul 20 - 01:46 AM

I think that some of the people who voted for corbyn might now swtch to voting green.
if people want to have a mildly socially democratic party that is marginally to the left of the conservative party that is not prepared to renationalise the railways and tne utility companies, the labour party might as well merge with the liberals. at least opposition to the conservatives would not be split two ways,
the other reason the tories won the last election was the input of UKIP and the pro leave europe voters, not standing in many constituencies and all voting conservative


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Jul 20 - 07:51 PM

You said you had no idea Baccie
Name calling isn'r really a subsitiuyte for argument - you really shoul know that
You all have my arguments- where are yours ?
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 18 Jul 20 - 03:13 PM

”I think it's a fairly well established tradition on this orum that, whenever someone finds themselves in a corner - go for the throat
It doesn't achieve anything but it helps those at a loss feel better“


Followed immediately by this piece of ad-hominem trolling nonsense

I thinkk Baccie might be the first to be persuaded that there is not a serious problem with antisemitism - he says he "doesn't know if there is"

Ever heard of the word ‘hypocrisy’, Jim? Google it.

For the record, here’s what I actually said -

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman - PM
Date: 02 Jul 20 - 02:30 PM

And, for the record, I don’t give a flying fuck whether RL-B’s tweet was, or wasn’t, ‘anti-Semitic’ - I’ve deliberately avoided making any judgment about that.”


Hypocrisy and word-twisting. Shameful behaviour Jim. I used to hold you in such high regard too....


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 18 Jul 20 - 03:10 PM

Jim - skids or not..

As pure hearted as we aspire to be, none of us are lucky enough to get through life
without skid-marks..

I'm up for fighting fire with fire;
and if it takes a proper lefty Jewish labour MP as party leader,
willing to risk fighting the pro Israeli smear campaigners...


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