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BS: UK thread, Politics and political

Barb'ry 23 Apr 20 - 08:27 PM
Steve Shaw 23 Apr 20 - 08:44 PM
punkfolkrocker 23 Apr 20 - 10:46 PM
An Buachaill Caol Dubh 23 Apr 20 - 11:22 PM
Jim Carroll 24 Apr 20 - 02:20 AM
DMcG 24 Apr 20 - 03:34 AM
DMcG 24 Apr 20 - 03:47 AM
Jim Carroll 24 Apr 20 - 04:17 AM
Dave the Gnome 24 Apr 20 - 04:25 AM
Iains 24 Apr 20 - 04:32 AM
Steve Shaw 24 Apr 20 - 04:38 AM
Dave the Gnome 24 Apr 20 - 04:53 AM
Jim Carroll 24 Apr 20 - 04:57 AM
Iains 24 Apr 20 - 05:01 AM
Iains 24 Apr 20 - 05:24 AM
Jim Carroll 24 Apr 20 - 05:35 AM
DMcG 24 Apr 20 - 06:57 AM
peteglasgow 24 Apr 20 - 07:17 AM
Iains 24 Apr 20 - 07:28 AM
DMcG 24 Apr 20 - 07:36 AM
Dave the Gnome 24 Apr 20 - 08:04 AM
Backwoodsman 24 Apr 20 - 08:11 AM
Backwoodsman 24 Apr 20 - 08:12 AM
Jim Carroll 24 Apr 20 - 08:22 AM
Raggytash 24 Apr 20 - 08:37 AM
gillymor 24 Apr 20 - 08:42 AM
Iains 24 Apr 20 - 08:54 AM
Jim Carroll 24 Apr 20 - 08:54 AM
gillymor 24 Apr 20 - 09:00 AM
Backwoodsman 24 Apr 20 - 09:20 AM
gillymor 24 Apr 20 - 09:25 AM
Iains 24 Apr 20 - 09:29 AM
Raggytash 24 Apr 20 - 09:36 AM
peteglasgow 24 Apr 20 - 09:40 AM
DMcG 24 Apr 20 - 10:30 AM
Nigel Parsons 24 Apr 20 - 11:19 AM
Bonzo3legs 24 Apr 20 - 01:14 PM
Dave the Gnome 24 Apr 20 - 01:29 PM
Dave the Gnome 24 Apr 20 - 01:36 PM
DMcG 24 Apr 20 - 01:59 PM
Iains 24 Apr 20 - 04:07 PM
DMcG 24 Apr 20 - 04:33 PM
An Buachaill Caol Dubh 24 Apr 20 - 04:37 PM
Steve Shaw 24 Apr 20 - 04:52 PM
Iains 24 Apr 20 - 04:56 PM
Raggytash 24 Apr 20 - 05:07 PM
Backwoodsman 24 Apr 20 - 05:11 PM
Iains 24 Apr 20 - 05:47 PM
Steve Shaw 24 Apr 20 - 07:09 PM
Mossback 24 Apr 20 - 07:14 PM
Backwoodsman 25 Apr 20 - 02:42 AM
Jim Carroll 25 Apr 20 - 02:55 AM
Jim Carroll 25 Apr 20 - 02:59 AM
Backwoodsman 25 Apr 20 - 03:06 AM
Jim Carroll 25 Apr 20 - 08:20 AM
Mossback 25 Apr 20 - 09:59 AM
DMcG 25 Apr 20 - 12:15 PM
Dave the Gnome 25 Apr 20 - 12:47 PM
Iains 25 Apr 20 - 01:44 PM
Doug Chadwick 25 Apr 20 - 01:57 PM
Doug Chadwick 25 Apr 20 - 02:01 PM
Backwoodsman 25 Apr 20 - 02:18 PM
Dave the Gnome 25 Apr 20 - 02:34 PM
Dave the Gnome 26 Apr 20 - 04:19 AM
Jim Carroll 26 Apr 20 - 04:49 AM
Backwoodsman 26 Apr 20 - 05:15 AM
Backwoodsman 26 Apr 20 - 05:16 AM
Steve Shaw 26 Apr 20 - 06:37 AM
peteglasgow 26 Apr 20 - 06:43 AM
Backwoodsman 26 Apr 20 - 06:48 AM
peteglasgow 26 Apr 20 - 07:00 AM
peteglasgow 26 Apr 20 - 07:06 AM
Backwoodsman 26 Apr 20 - 07:13 AM
Dave the Gnome 26 Apr 20 - 07:31 AM
Iains 26 Apr 20 - 07:51 AM
Jim Carroll 26 Apr 20 - 08:13 AM
Steve Shaw 26 Apr 20 - 08:20 AM
Iains 26 Apr 20 - 09:14 AM
Backwoodsman 26 Apr 20 - 12:50 PM
Iains 26 Apr 20 - 02:05 PM
Jim Carroll 26 Apr 20 - 03:29 PM
Jim Carroll 27 Apr 20 - 05:40 AM
DMcG 27 Apr 20 - 05:55 AM
Iains 27 Apr 20 - 06:07 AM
Jim Carroll 27 Apr 20 - 07:04 AM
DMcG 27 Apr 20 - 07:32 AM
Iains 27 Apr 20 - 07:35 AM
Iains 27 Apr 20 - 07:42 AM
DMcG 27 Apr 20 - 07:58 AM
Nigel Parsons 27 Apr 20 - 08:10 AM
DMcG 27 Apr 20 - 08:24 AM
Jim Carroll 27 Apr 20 - 08:25 AM
Iains 27 Apr 20 - 08:51 AM
Nigel Parsons 27 Apr 20 - 09:14 AM
DMcG 27 Apr 20 - 09:23 AM
Jim Carroll 27 Apr 20 - 10:52 AM
DMcG 27 Apr 20 - 11:20 AM
Iains 27 Apr 20 - 11:34 AM
DMcG 27 Apr 20 - 12:07 PM
Jim Carroll 27 Apr 20 - 12:55 PM
Jim Carroll 27 Apr 20 - 01:10 PM
Iains 27 Apr 20 - 01:57 PM
Bonzo3legs 27 Apr 20 - 02:11 PM
Jim Carroll 27 Apr 20 - 02:16 PM
Raggytash 27 Apr 20 - 02:40 PM
Jim Carroll 27 Apr 20 - 02:41 PM
Iains 27 Apr 20 - 02:57 PM
Backwoodsman 27 Apr 20 - 02:58 PM
Nigel Parsons 27 Apr 20 - 03:02 PM
Steve Shaw 27 Apr 20 - 04:12 PM
Backwoodsman 27 Apr 20 - 04:20 PM
Iains 27 Apr 20 - 04:32 PM
Steve Shaw 27 Apr 20 - 06:24 PM
Jim Carroll 27 Apr 20 - 08:47 PM
Steve Shaw 27 Apr 20 - 09:05 PM
Backwoodsman 27 Apr 20 - 10:53 PM
Jim Carroll 28 Apr 20 - 02:57 AM
Backwoodsman 28 Apr 20 - 03:08 AM
DMcG 28 Apr 20 - 03:10 AM
DMcG 28 Apr 20 - 03:17 AM
Jim Carroll 28 Apr 20 - 03:53 AM
Iains 28 Apr 20 - 04:48 AM
DMcG 28 Apr 20 - 04:57 AM
Steve Shaw 28 Apr 20 - 06:25 AM
Jim Carroll 28 Apr 20 - 07:22 AM
Steve Shaw 28 Apr 20 - 07:26 AM
An Buachaill Caol Dubh 28 Apr 20 - 08:35 AM
Jim Carroll 28 Apr 20 - 08:48 AM
Jim Carroll 28 Apr 20 - 01:09 PM
Steve Shaw 28 Apr 20 - 01:39 PM
DMcG 28 Apr 20 - 01:40 PM
Raggytash 28 Apr 20 - 02:19 PM
Steve Shaw 28 Apr 20 - 02:32 PM
Backwoodsman 28 Apr 20 - 02:46 PM
Raggytash 28 Apr 20 - 03:00 PM
Bonzo3legs 28 Apr 20 - 03:02 PM
Jim Carroll 28 Apr 20 - 03:04 PM
Backwoodsman 28 Apr 20 - 03:10 PM
Iains 28 Apr 20 - 03:25 PM
Steve Shaw 28 Apr 20 - 03:51 PM
Iains 28 Apr 20 - 04:13 PM
Iains 28 Apr 20 - 04:17 PM
DMcG 28 Apr 20 - 04:20 PM
DMcG 28 Apr 20 - 04:23 PM
WalkaboutsVerse 28 Apr 20 - 05:11 PM
Steve Shaw 28 Apr 20 - 05:30 PM
Iains 28 Apr 20 - 06:23 PM
An Buachaill Caol Dubh 28 Apr 20 - 07:24 PM
DMcG 29 Apr 20 - 01:06 AM
Jim Carroll 29 Apr 20 - 03:23 AM
Iains 29 Apr 20 - 04:00 AM
Jim Carroll 29 Apr 20 - 04:14 AM
Iains 29 Apr 20 - 04:21 AM
DMcG 29 Apr 20 - 04:48 AM
Jim Carroll 29 Apr 20 - 05:04 AM
Jim Carroll 29 Apr 20 - 05:39 AM
Rain Dog 29 Apr 20 - 05:53 AM
Jim Carroll 29 Apr 20 - 05:58 AM
DMcG 29 Apr 20 - 06:07 AM
Steve Shaw 29 Apr 20 - 06:20 AM
Jim Carroll 29 Apr 20 - 07:18 AM
Nigel Parsons 29 Apr 20 - 07:19 AM
Backwoodsman 29 Apr 20 - 07:24 AM
DMcG 29 Apr 20 - 07:25 AM
Jim Carroll 29 Apr 20 - 08:16 AM
Backwoodsman 29 Apr 20 - 08:20 AM
Raggytash 29 Apr 20 - 09:03 AM
DMcG 29 Apr 20 - 12:23 PM
Rain Dog 29 Apr 20 - 12:30 PM
DMcG 29 Apr 20 - 12:39 PM
DMcG 29 Apr 20 - 01:18 PM
An Buachaill Caol Dubh 29 Apr 20 - 01:35 PM
Iains 29 Apr 20 - 02:15 PM
Jim Carroll 29 Apr 20 - 03:18 PM
Iains 29 Apr 20 - 04:00 PM
Raggytash 29 Apr 20 - 04:06 PM
DMcG 30 Apr 20 - 04:07 AM
Jim Carroll 30 Apr 20 - 04:15 AM
Iains 30 Apr 20 - 05:05 AM
Jim Carroll 30 Apr 20 - 05:53 AM
Jim Carroll 30 Apr 20 - 07:00 AM
Iains 30 Apr 20 - 08:04 AM
Jim Carroll 30 Apr 20 - 08:15 AM
Iains 30 Apr 20 - 08:47 AM
Iains 30 Apr 20 - 10:05 AM
DMcG 30 Apr 20 - 10:34 AM
Jim Carroll 30 Apr 20 - 01:07 PM
Steve Shaw 30 Apr 20 - 06:18 PM
Backwoodsman 01 May 20 - 01:56 AM
Jim Carroll 01 May 20 - 03:55 AM
Rain Dog 01 May 20 - 04:28 AM
Jim Carroll 01 May 20 - 04:32 AM
Steve Shaw 01 May 20 - 04:47 AM
Steve Shaw 01 May 20 - 04:48 AM
Steve Shaw 01 May 20 - 04:50 AM
Steve Shaw 01 May 20 - 06:21 AM
Jim Carroll 01 May 20 - 07:07 AM
Rain Dog 01 May 20 - 07:25 AM
Jim Carroll 01 May 20 - 07:33 AM
Backwoodsman 01 May 20 - 07:50 AM
Jim Carroll 01 May 20 - 08:23 AM
Rain Dog 01 May 20 - 09:38 AM
DMcG 01 May 20 - 09:42 AM
Rain Dog 01 May 20 - 09:47 AM
Jim Carroll 01 May 20 - 10:06 AM
Jim Carroll 02 May 20 - 08:47 AM
Jim Carroll 02 May 20 - 01:15 PM
Jim Carroll 02 May 20 - 02:14 PM
Jim Carroll 02 May 20 - 02:39 PM
Jim Carroll 03 May 20 - 03:23 AM
Iains 03 May 20 - 05:27 AM
Jim Carroll 03 May 20 - 05:47 AM
Bonzo3legs 03 May 20 - 01:11 PM
Jim Carroll 03 May 20 - 01:27 PM
Steve Shaw 03 May 20 - 02:05 PM
Backwoodsman 03 May 20 - 02:10 PM
Backwoodsman 03 May 20 - 02:11 PM
Steve Shaw 03 May 20 - 02:14 PM
Steve Shaw 03 May 20 - 02:16 PM
punkfolkrocker 03 May 20 - 02:26 PM
Bonzo3legs 03 May 20 - 03:32 PM
punkfolkrocker 03 May 20 - 03:44 PM
Iains 03 May 20 - 05:41 PM
Steve Shaw 03 May 20 - 05:54 PM
DMcG 04 May 20 - 03:13 AM
Iains 04 May 20 - 03:27 AM
Iains 04 May 20 - 03:36 AM
Jim Carroll 04 May 20 - 03:48 AM
Jim Carroll 04 May 20 - 03:50 AM
DMcG 04 May 20 - 03:58 AM
DMcG 04 May 20 - 04:12 AM
Iains 04 May 20 - 04:19 AM
DMcG 04 May 20 - 04:50 AM
Jim Carroll 04 May 20 - 05:02 AM
Backwoodsman 04 May 20 - 05:23 AM
Iains 04 May 20 - 05:26 AM
DMcG 04 May 20 - 05:37 AM
Iains 04 May 20 - 05:47 AM
Jim Carroll 04 May 20 - 06:09 AM
Jim Carroll 04 May 20 - 06:12 AM
Rain Dog 04 May 20 - 07:15 AM
Rain Dog 04 May 20 - 07:18 AM
DMcG 04 May 20 - 07:30 AM
Jim Carroll 04 May 20 - 07:31 AM
Iains 04 May 20 - 07:32 AM
weerover 04 May 20 - 07:39 AM
Iains 04 May 20 - 07:39 AM
Jim Carroll 04 May 20 - 08:14 AM
Iains 04 May 20 - 08:40 AM
Rain Dog 04 May 20 - 08:56 AM
weerover 04 May 20 - 08:59 AM
Jim Carroll 04 May 20 - 09:31 AM
DMcG 04 May 20 - 09:50 AM
DMcG 04 May 20 - 10:53 AM
Doug Chadwick 04 May 20 - 10:57 AM
Backwoodsman 04 May 20 - 11:04 AM
Jim Carroll 04 May 20 - 12:34 PM
Raggytash 04 May 20 - 12:39 PM
DMcG 04 May 20 - 12:56 PM
Jim Carroll 04 May 20 - 01:11 PM
Steve Shaw 04 May 20 - 08:35 PM
Joe Offer 04 May 20 - 09:08 PM
The Sandman 05 May 20 - 02:05 AM
Iains 05 May 20 - 03:35 AM
Backwoodsman 05 May 20 - 04:10 AM
Jim Carroll 05 May 20 - 04:11 AM
Iains 05 May 20 - 04:47 AM
Jim Carroll 05 May 20 - 05:37 AM
Jim Carroll 05 May 20 - 05:38 AM
Iains 05 May 20 - 05:48 AM
Steve Shaw 05 May 20 - 06:10 AM
Jim Carroll 05 May 20 - 06:24 AM
DMcG 05 May 20 - 06:36 AM
Iains 05 May 20 - 06:41 AM
Jim Carroll 05 May 20 - 07:16 AM
Iains 05 May 20 - 07:25 AM
Jim Carroll 05 May 20 - 07:26 AM
Iains 05 May 20 - 07:36 AM
Jim Carroll 05 May 20 - 08:21 AM
Donuel 05 May 20 - 08:27 AM
Jim Carroll 05 May 20 - 10:32 AM
Raggytash 05 May 20 - 01:23 PM
Bonzo3legs 05 May 20 - 01:25 PM
Raggytash 05 May 20 - 01:36 PM
Backwoodsman 05 May 20 - 01:47 PM
Bonzo3legs 05 May 20 - 01:53 PM
Iains 05 May 20 - 02:00 PM
Backwoodsman 05 May 20 - 02:02 PM
DMcG 05 May 20 - 03:08 PM
Iains 05 May 20 - 03:09 PM
Bonzo3legs 05 May 20 - 03:38 PM
Raggytash 05 May 20 - 03:54 PM
Raggytash 05 May 20 - 03:59 PM
Steve Shaw 05 May 20 - 04:01 PM
Iains 05 May 20 - 04:16 PM
DMcG 05 May 20 - 04:43 PM
Steve Shaw 05 May 20 - 06:02 PM
Steve Shaw 05 May 20 - 06:05 PM
Bonzo3legs 05 May 20 - 06:22 PM
Bonzo3legs 05 May 20 - 06:32 PM
DMcG 06 May 20 - 02:54 AM
Jim Carroll 06 May 20 - 03:44 AM
Iains 06 May 20 - 04:05 AM
Iains 06 May 20 - 04:22 AM
Steve Shaw 06 May 20 - 04:53 AM
Steve Shaw 06 May 20 - 05:05 AM
Jim Carroll 06 May 20 - 05:41 AM
Iains 06 May 20 - 06:15 AM
Steve Shaw 06 May 20 - 06:38 AM
Steve Shaw 06 May 20 - 06:56 AM
Iains 06 May 20 - 07:03 AM
Backwoodsman 06 May 20 - 07:42 AM
Iains 06 May 20 - 07:59 AM
Backwoodsman 06 May 20 - 08:09 AM
Jim Carroll 06 May 20 - 08:18 AM
Iains 06 May 20 - 08:55 AM
Iains 06 May 20 - 08:59 AM
Jim Carroll 06 May 20 - 08:59 AM
Iains 06 May 20 - 09:07 AM
Steve Shaw 06 May 20 - 09:28 AM
Jim Carroll 06 May 20 - 10:14 AM
Iains 06 May 20 - 10:24 AM
Rain Dog 06 May 20 - 10:43 AM
DMcG 06 May 20 - 10:45 AM
Jim Carroll 06 May 20 - 10:47 AM
Steve Shaw 06 May 20 - 10:50 AM
Steve Shaw 06 May 20 - 10:54 AM
Steve Shaw 06 May 20 - 11:01 AM
Iains 06 May 20 - 11:42 AM
Steve Shaw 06 May 20 - 11:49 AM
Iains 06 May 20 - 12:00 PM
Jim Carroll 06 May 20 - 12:04 PM
Iains 06 May 20 - 12:10 PM
Jim Carroll 06 May 20 - 12:30 PM
Jim Carroll 06 May 20 - 12:34 PM
Iains 06 May 20 - 12:39 PM
DMcG 06 May 20 - 12:40 PM
Iains 06 May 20 - 01:13 PM
Jim Carroll 06 May 20 - 01:28 PM
DMcG 06 May 20 - 01:55 PM
Jim Carroll 06 May 20 - 01:58 PM
Iains 06 May 20 - 03:28 PM
Steve Shaw 06 May 20 - 04:05 PM
DMcG 06 May 20 - 04:34 PM
Iains 06 May 20 - 04:34 PM
Iains 06 May 20 - 04:37 PM
DMcG 06 May 20 - 04:39 PM
Steve Shaw 06 May 20 - 05:39 PM
Jim Carroll 07 May 20 - 03:26 AM
The Sandman 07 May 20 - 03:38 AM
weerover 07 May 20 - 04:15 AM
David Carter (UK) 07 May 20 - 04:21 AM
David Carter (UK) 07 May 20 - 04:24 AM
Steve Shaw 07 May 20 - 04:32 AM
Rain Dog 07 May 20 - 04:51 AM
Monique 07 May 20 - 04:53 AM
Iains 07 May 20 - 04:59 AM
Iains 07 May 20 - 05:48 AM
Jim Carroll 07 May 20 - 05:53 AM
The Sandman 07 May 20 - 06:10 AM
Iains 07 May 20 - 06:11 AM
Nigel Parsons 07 May 20 - 06:25 AM
Iains 07 May 20 - 07:02 AM
Jim Carroll 07 May 20 - 07:27 AM
Iains 07 May 20 - 07:30 AM
DMcG 07 May 20 - 07:37 AM
Rain Dog 07 May 20 - 07:57 AM
Jim Carroll 07 May 20 - 08:22 AM
Jim Carroll 07 May 20 - 08:26 AM
Iains 07 May 20 - 08:47 AM
Jim Carroll 07 May 20 - 09:14 AM
Jim Carroll 07 May 20 - 09:33 AM
Stilly River Sage 07 May 20 - 09:54 AM
DMcG 07 May 20 - 10:19 AM
Jim Carroll 07 May 20 - 10:52 AM
Rain Dog 07 May 20 - 10:54 AM
Rain Dog 07 May 20 - 11:08 AM
Jim Carroll 07 May 20 - 11:39 AM
Raggytash 07 May 20 - 11:45 AM
Rain Dog 07 May 20 - 11:46 AM
Rain Dog 07 May 20 - 11:58 AM
Raggytash 07 May 20 - 12:09 PM
Steve Shaw 07 May 20 - 12:27 PM
Nigel Parsons 07 May 20 - 12:46 PM
Jim Carroll 07 May 20 - 12:52 PM
Jim Carroll 07 May 20 - 01:12 PM
Iains 07 May 20 - 01:52 PM
Iains 07 May 20 - 02:50 PM
Iains 07 May 20 - 02:52 PM
Jim Carroll 07 May 20 - 02:59 PM
Jim Carroll 07 May 20 - 03:09 PM
Iains 07 May 20 - 04:47 PM
DMcG 08 May 20 - 02:59 AM
Jim Carroll 08 May 20 - 04:14 AM
Iains 08 May 20 - 04:44 AM
Backwoodsman 08 May 20 - 05:20 AM
Jim Carroll 08 May 20 - 05:25 AM
Iains 08 May 20 - 05:44 AM
Jim Carroll 08 May 20 - 05:56 AM
Bonzo3legs 08 May 20 - 06:06 AM
Jim Carroll 08 May 20 - 06:09 AM
Backwoodsman 08 May 20 - 06:16 AM
WalkaboutsVerse 08 May 20 - 06:44 AM
Raggytash 08 May 20 - 07:59 AM
Jim Carroll 08 May 20 - 08:09 AM
Raggytash 08 May 20 - 08:20 AM
Iains 08 May 20 - 08:42 AM
Jim Carroll 08 May 20 - 08:50 AM
Raggytash 08 May 20 - 09:20 AM
Barb'ry 08 May 20 - 10:10 AM
Jim Carroll 08 May 20 - 10:26 AM
Bonzo3legs 08 May 20 - 11:42 AM
Steve Shaw 08 May 20 - 11:51 AM
Iains 08 May 20 - 01:05 PM
Steve Shaw 08 May 20 - 02:23 PM
Jim Carroll 08 May 20 - 02:28 PM
Nigel Parsons 08 May 20 - 02:57 PM
Raggytash 08 May 20 - 03:16 PM
Nigel Parsons 08 May 20 - 03:51 PM
Iains 08 May 20 - 03:55 PM
Steve Shaw 08 May 20 - 04:24 PM
Donuel 08 May 20 - 04:40 PM
Donuel 08 May 20 - 05:13 PM
Backwoodsman 08 May 20 - 05:31 PM
DMcG 08 May 20 - 06:32 PM
Steve Shaw 08 May 20 - 06:39 PM
DMcG 09 May 20 - 03:13 AM
Jim Carroll 09 May 20 - 03:15 AM
Jim Carroll 09 May 20 - 03:16 AM
Steve Shaw 09 May 20 - 05:48 AM
Steve Shaw 09 May 20 - 07:05 AM
Rain Dog 09 May 20 - 07:22 AM
Jim Carroll 09 May 20 - 08:30 AM
DMcG 09 May 20 - 09:26 AM
Steve Shaw 09 May 20 - 09:40 AM
DMcG 09 May 20 - 10:09 AM
Iains 09 May 20 - 10:47 AM
Jim Carroll 09 May 20 - 11:17 AM
Jim Carroll 09 May 20 - 11:18 AM
Iains 09 May 20 - 12:23 PM
Iains 09 May 20 - 12:48 PM
Jim Carroll 09 May 20 - 01:07 PM
Steve Shaw 09 May 20 - 01:19 PM
Iains 09 May 20 - 01:52 PM
Jim Carroll 09 May 20 - 02:19 PM
The Sandman 09 May 20 - 03:49 PM
Backwoodsman 09 May 20 - 03:55 PM
Steve Shaw 09 May 20 - 04:00 PM
Iains 09 May 20 - 05:05 PM
Stilly River Sage 09 May 20 - 05:23 PM
Jim Carroll 10 May 20 - 02:49 AM
Jim Carroll 10 May 20 - 04:12 AM
Dave the Gnome 10 May 20 - 06:30 AM
Jim Carroll 10 May 20 - 07:08 AM
Jim Carroll 10 May 20 - 08:07 AM
Iains 10 May 20 - 09:34 AM
Dave the Gnome 10 May 20 - 09:49 AM
Jim Carroll 10 May 20 - 10:17 AM
Steve Shaw 10 May 20 - 10:18 AM
DMcG 10 May 20 - 10:20 AM
Steve Shaw 10 May 20 - 10:23 AM
peteglasgow 10 May 20 - 10:36 AM
Jim Carroll 10 May 20 - 10:52 AM
Backwoodsman 10 May 20 - 12:57 PM
Iains 10 May 20 - 01:53 PM
Nigel Parsons 10 May 20 - 02:37 PM
Dave the Gnome 10 May 20 - 02:47 PM
Nigel Parsons 10 May 20 - 02:52 PM
punkfolkrocker 10 May 20 - 02:56 PM
punkfolkrocker 10 May 20 - 02:59 PM
Iains 10 May 20 - 03:04 PM
Jim Carroll 10 May 20 - 03:07 PM
Nigel Parsons 10 May 20 - 03:08 PM
Steve Shaw 10 May 20 - 03:20 PM
Steve Shaw 10 May 20 - 03:23 PM
punkfolkrocker 10 May 20 - 03:24 PM
punkfolkrocker 10 May 20 - 03:44 PM
Bonzo3legs 10 May 20 - 03:47 PM
punkfolkrocker 10 May 20 - 03:56 PM
Bonzo3legs 10 May 20 - 04:21 PM
Iains 10 May 20 - 04:53 PM
Dave the Gnome 10 May 20 - 05:39 PM
DMcG 10 May 20 - 05:41 PM
DMcG 10 May 20 - 05:52 PM
DMcG 11 May 20 - 02:21 AM
Jim Carroll 11 May 20 - 02:55 AM
Backwoodsman 11 May 20 - 03:07 AM
Iains 11 May 20 - 03:50 AM
Dave the Gnome 11 May 20 - 04:12 AM
DMcG 11 May 20 - 04:17 AM
Jim Carroll 11 May 20 - 04:17 AM
Rain Dog 11 May 20 - 04:48 AM
DMcG 11 May 20 - 04:56 AM
Jim Carroll 11 May 20 - 05:09 AM
Jim Carroll 11 May 20 - 05:39 AM
Steve Shaw 11 May 20 - 06:16 AM
Jim Carroll 11 May 20 - 06:22 AM
DMcG 11 May 20 - 06:35 AM
Iains 11 May 20 - 07:00 AM
Steve Shaw 11 May 20 - 07:01 AM
Steve Shaw 11 May 20 - 07:36 AM
Jim Carroll 11 May 20 - 08:07 AM
Jim Carroll 11 May 20 - 08:27 AM
DMcG 11 May 20 - 09:11 AM
DMcG 11 May 20 - 09:14 AM
punkfolkrocker 11 May 20 - 02:26 PM
punkfolkrocker 11 May 20 - 02:32 PM
Iains 12 May 20 - 04:26 AM
Rain Dog 12 May 20 - 05:13 AM
Jim Carroll 12 May 20 - 05:15 AM
Iains 12 May 20 - 05:21 AM
Rain Dog 12 May 20 - 05:34 AM
DMcG 12 May 20 - 05:46 AM
Iains 12 May 20 - 05:51 AM
DMcG 12 May 20 - 06:02 AM
Rain Dog 12 May 20 - 06:20 AM
Steve Shaw 12 May 20 - 06:36 AM
Jim Carroll 12 May 20 - 06:47 AM
Backwoodsman 12 May 20 - 06:48 AM
Steve Shaw 12 May 20 - 06:51 AM
Dave the Gnome 12 May 20 - 07:44 AM
DMcG 12 May 20 - 07:49 AM
DMcG 12 May 20 - 07:59 AM
DMcG 12 May 20 - 08:08 AM
Iains 12 May 20 - 08:25 AM
Steve Shaw 12 May 20 - 08:34 AM
peteglasgow 12 May 20 - 09:28 AM
Donuel 12 May 20 - 09:39 AM
Jim Carroll 12 May 20 - 09:49 AM
punkfolkrocker 12 May 20 - 10:48 AM
punkfolkrocker 12 May 20 - 11:19 AM
Dave the Gnome 12 May 20 - 11:37 AM
Steve Shaw 12 May 20 - 12:03 PM
Iains 12 May 20 - 12:27 PM
punkfolkrocker 12 May 20 - 12:30 PM
punkfolkrocker 12 May 20 - 12:40 PM
Iains 12 May 20 - 01:14 PM
punkfolkrocker 12 May 20 - 01:26 PM
Raggytash 12 May 20 - 01:27 PM
punkfolkrocker 12 May 20 - 01:38 PM
DMcG 12 May 20 - 01:40 PM
punkfolkrocker 12 May 20 - 01:51 PM
punkfolkrocker 12 May 20 - 01:54 PM
Iains 12 May 20 - 03:37 PM
punkfolkrocker 12 May 20 - 03:52 PM
Iains 12 May 20 - 03:56 PM
Raggytash 12 May 20 - 04:01 PM
Jim Carroll 13 May 20 - 03:23 AM
Jim Carroll 13 May 20 - 03:39 AM
DMcG 13 May 20 - 03:41 AM
Iains 13 May 20 - 04:04 AM
Iains 13 May 20 - 04:09 AM
peteglasgow 13 May 20 - 04:16 AM
DMcG 13 May 20 - 04:45 AM
Jim Carroll 13 May 20 - 04:47 AM
Jim Carroll 13 May 20 - 05:32 AM
Steve Shaw 13 May 20 - 05:54 AM
Iains 13 May 20 - 06:19 AM
Steve Shaw 13 May 20 - 07:05 AM
Jim Carroll 13 May 20 - 07:16 AM
Dave the Gnome 13 May 20 - 07:24 AM
Dave the Gnome 13 May 20 - 07:29 AM
Jim Carroll 13 May 20 - 07:34 AM
Iains 13 May 20 - 08:02 AM
Jim Carroll 13 May 20 - 08:15 AM
Jim Carroll 13 May 20 - 08:35 AM
Iains 13 May 20 - 08:42 AM
Iains 13 May 20 - 08:45 AM
Jim Carroll 13 May 20 - 09:13 AM
DMcG 13 May 20 - 10:52 AM
Dave the Gnome 13 May 20 - 11:06 AM
peteglasgow 13 May 20 - 11:28 AM
DMcG 13 May 20 - 12:10 PM
punkfolkrocker 13 May 20 - 12:38 PM
Dave the Gnome 13 May 20 - 01:03 PM
Dave the Gnome 13 May 20 - 01:05 PM
Raggytash 13 May 20 - 01:42 PM
Raggytash 13 May 20 - 01:52 PM
Shug Hanlan 13 May 20 - 04:52 PM
Backwoodsman 14 May 20 - 01:37 AM
Jim Carroll 14 May 20 - 02:26 AM
Dave the Gnome 14 May 20 - 04:27 AM
Backwoodsman 14 May 20 - 04:52 AM
DMcG 14 May 20 - 05:24 AM
Rain Dog 14 May 20 - 06:05 AM
DMcG 14 May 20 - 07:02 AM
Rain Dog 14 May 20 - 07:26 AM
Bonzo3legs 14 May 20 - 07:28 AM
DMcG 14 May 20 - 07:35 AM
DMcG 14 May 20 - 07:39 AM
Jim Carroll 14 May 20 - 07:42 AM
Rain Dog 14 May 20 - 07:43 AM
punkfolkrocker 14 May 20 - 08:53 AM
punkfolkrocker 14 May 20 - 10:03 AM
Bonzo3legs 14 May 20 - 12:50 PM
DMcG 14 May 20 - 01:55 PM
Raggytash 14 May 20 - 03:23 PM
punkfolkrocker 14 May 20 - 03:27 PM
Dave the Gnome 14 May 20 - 04:39 PM
Backwoodsman 14 May 20 - 05:10 PM
Donuel 14 May 20 - 06:29 PM
Dave the Gnome 15 May 20 - 02:29 AM
DMcG 15 May 20 - 02:54 AM
Backwoodsman 15 May 20 - 04:10 AM
Backwoodsman 15 May 20 - 04:21 AM
Rain Dog 15 May 20 - 04:28 AM
DMcG 15 May 20 - 05:56 AM
Donuel 15 May 20 - 08:46 AM
punkfolkrocker 15 May 20 - 10:33 AM
Donuel 15 May 20 - 11:08 AM
punkfolkrocker 15 May 20 - 11:26 AM
Bonzo3legs 15 May 20 - 11:45 AM
Dave the Gnome 15 May 20 - 12:17 PM
Backwoodsman 15 May 20 - 02:31 PM
Jim Carroll 16 May 20 - 03:52 AM
Dave the Gnome 16 May 20 - 05:47 AM
Backwoodsman 16 May 20 - 06:07 AM
DMcG 16 May 20 - 06:23 AM
Backwoodsman 16 May 20 - 06:34 AM
Steve Shaw 16 May 20 - 06:59 AM
Steve Shaw 16 May 20 - 07:04 AM
An Buachaill Caol Dubh 16 May 20 - 09:15 AM
Jim Carroll 16 May 20 - 09:23 AM
An Buachaill Caol Dubh 16 May 20 - 09:59 AM
Bonzo3legs 16 May 20 - 10:12 AM
Donuel 16 May 20 - 10:48 AM
Steve Shaw 16 May 20 - 11:03 AM
Steve Shaw 16 May 20 - 11:11 AM
Backwoodsman 16 May 20 - 11:18 AM
punkfolkrocker 16 May 20 - 11:28 AM
punkfolkrocker 16 May 20 - 11:44 AM
An Buachaill Caol Dubh 16 May 20 - 12:12 PM
Dave the Gnome 16 May 20 - 12:16 PM
DMcG 16 May 20 - 12:47 PM
punkfolkrocker 16 May 20 - 01:01 PM
Donuel 16 May 20 - 02:02 PM
Backwoodsman 16 May 20 - 02:45 PM
Backwoodsman 16 May 20 - 03:05 PM
Steve Shaw 16 May 20 - 04:34 PM
Donuel 16 May 20 - 05:42 PM
Backwoodsman 17 May 20 - 02:02 AM
Steve Shaw 17 May 20 - 02:30 AM
Dave the Gnome 17 May 20 - 02:59 AM
DMcG 17 May 20 - 03:37 AM
Backwoodsman 17 May 20 - 03:38 AM
Backwoodsman 17 May 20 - 03:44 AM
punkfolkrocker 17 May 20 - 04:07 AM
Steve Shaw 17 May 20 - 04:34 AM
Steve Shaw 17 May 20 - 04:38 AM
Backwoodsman 17 May 20 - 04:58 AM
Backwoodsman 17 May 20 - 05:16 AM
Steve Shaw 17 May 20 - 06:36 AM
Dave the Gnome 17 May 20 - 06:52 AM
Backwoodsman 17 May 20 - 06:54 AM
peteglasgow 17 May 20 - 07:08 AM
Steve Shaw 17 May 20 - 07:46 AM
DMcG 17 May 20 - 08:02 AM
Steve Shaw 17 May 20 - 08:40 AM
Nigel Parsons 17 May 20 - 09:55 AM
Steve Shaw 17 May 20 - 10:09 AM
Steve Shaw 17 May 20 - 10:10 AM
An Buachaill Caol Dubh 17 May 20 - 10:23 AM
An Buachaill Caol Dubh 17 May 20 - 10:25 AM
Nigel Parsons 17 May 20 - 10:36 AM
Raggytash 17 May 20 - 10:46 AM
Steve Shaw 17 May 20 - 10:46 AM
Steve Shaw 17 May 20 - 10:52 AM
Nigel Parsons 17 May 20 - 10:54 AM
An Buachaill Caol Dubh 17 May 20 - 11:13 AM
Steve Shaw 17 May 20 - 11:48 AM
Backwoodsman 17 May 20 - 01:00 PM
punkfolkrocker 17 May 20 - 01:05 PM
punkfolkrocker 17 May 20 - 01:54 PM
Backwoodsman 17 May 20 - 02:01 PM
punkfolkrocker 17 May 20 - 02:05 PM
An Buachaill Caol Dubh 17 May 20 - 02:29 PM
punkfolkrocker 17 May 20 - 02:33 PM
Backwoodsman 17 May 20 - 02:46 PM
An Buachaill Caol Dubh 17 May 20 - 03:07 PM
Steve Shaw 17 May 20 - 06:16 PM
Steve Shaw 17 May 20 - 06:20 PM
Backwoodsman 18 May 20 - 01:38 AM
Steve Shaw 18 May 20 - 02:48 AM
punkfolkrocker 18 May 20 - 03:27 AM
Backwoodsman 18 May 20 - 03:34 AM
Backwoodsman 18 May 20 - 03:38 AM
Backwoodsman 18 May 20 - 03:51 AM
Steve Shaw 18 May 20 - 06:40 AM
Backwoodsman 18 May 20 - 07:28 AM
peteglasgow 18 May 20 - 09:40 AM
Steve Shaw 18 May 20 - 10:19 AM
Jim Carroll 18 May 20 - 10:55 AM
punkfolkrocker 18 May 20 - 12:39 PM
Steve Shaw 18 May 20 - 04:04 PM
DMcG 19 May 20 - 03:38 AM
Backwoodsman 19 May 20 - 03:54 AM
DMcG 19 May 20 - 04:15 AM
Backwoodsman 19 May 20 - 04:24 AM
DMcG 19 May 20 - 04:30 AM
Steve Shaw 19 May 20 - 04:31 AM
Rain Dog 19 May 20 - 04:33 AM
Steve Shaw 19 May 20 - 04:34 AM
Jim Carroll 19 May 20 - 04:41 AM
Steve Shaw 19 May 20 - 04:46 AM
Jim Carroll 19 May 20 - 04:46 AM
Dave the Gnome 19 May 20 - 04:57 AM
peteglasgow 19 May 20 - 06:12 AM
DMcG 19 May 20 - 11:08 AM
Dave the Gnome 19 May 20 - 12:55 PM
punkfolkrocker 19 May 20 - 01:13 PM
punkfolkrocker 19 May 20 - 01:17 PM
DMcG 19 May 20 - 01:30 PM
Dave the Gnome 20 May 20 - 02:27 AM
DMcG 20 May 20 - 02:46 AM
David Carter (UK) 20 May 20 - 03:54 AM
David Carter (UK) 20 May 20 - 03:55 AM
DMcG 20 May 20 - 05:29 AM
Steve Shaw 20 May 20 - 06:06 AM
Dave the Gnome 20 May 20 - 06:14 AM
Jim Carroll 20 May 20 - 06:15 AM
Backwoodsman 20 May 20 - 08:55 AM
Dave the Gnome 20 May 20 - 11:40 AM
Backwoodsman 20 May 20 - 12:05 PM
Backwoodsman 20 May 20 - 12:13 PM
DMcG 20 May 20 - 01:03 PM
punkfolkrocker 20 May 20 - 01:05 PM
peteglasgow 20 May 20 - 03:05 PM
Backwoodsman 20 May 20 - 04:58 PM
Backwoodsman 20 May 20 - 05:00 PM
Bonzo3legs 20 May 20 - 06:25 PM
punkfolkrocker 20 May 20 - 07:07 PM
Dave the Gnome 21 May 20 - 03:48 AM
DMcG 21 May 20 - 04:48 AM
Steve Shaw 21 May 20 - 05:07 AM
Dave the Gnome 21 May 20 - 05:16 AM
Dave the Gnome 21 May 20 - 08:17 AM
DMcG 21 May 20 - 08:47 AM
Raggytash 21 May 20 - 10:07 AM
punkfolkrocker 21 May 20 - 11:37 AM
Rain Dog 21 May 20 - 11:45 AM
Dave the Gnome 21 May 20 - 12:10 PM
peteglasgow 21 May 20 - 12:20 PM
DMcG 22 May 20 - 01:39 PM
DMcG 22 May 20 - 01:47 PM
Nigel Parsons 22 May 20 - 03:26 PM
Nigel Parsons 22 May 20 - 03:29 PM
DMcG 22 May 20 - 03:47 PM
Nigel Parsons 22 May 20 - 04:45 PM
punkfolkrocker 22 May 20 - 04:52 PM
Backwoodsman 22 May 20 - 04:57 PM
Dave the Gnome 22 May 20 - 05:08 PM
DMcG 22 May 20 - 05:13 PM
punkfolkrocker 22 May 20 - 05:46 PM
DMcG 23 May 20 - 02:42 AM
Bonzo3legs 23 May 20 - 05:11 AM
Nigel Parsons 23 May 20 - 05:17 AM
Backwoodsman 23 May 20 - 05:32 AM
Dave the Gnome 23 May 20 - 05:59 AM
Steve Shaw 23 May 20 - 07:23 AM
Steve Shaw 23 May 20 - 07:26 AM
Dave the Gnome 23 May 20 - 07:33 AM
DMcG 23 May 20 - 08:02 AM
Raggytash 23 May 20 - 08:34 AM
Steve Shaw 23 May 20 - 08:47 AM
punkfolkrocker 23 May 20 - 10:54 AM
An Buachaill Caol Dubh 23 May 20 - 11:19 AM
Jim Carroll 23 May 20 - 11:43 AM
punkfolkrocker 23 May 20 - 12:01 PM
Dave the Gnome 23 May 20 - 01:04 PM
Backwoodsman 23 May 20 - 05:29 PM
peteglasgow 23 May 20 - 07:16 PM
peteglasgow 23 May 20 - 07:17 PM
Bonzo3legs 24 May 20 - 02:12 AM
DMcG 24 May 20 - 02:44 AM
Jim Carroll 24 May 20 - 03:19 AM
Backwoodsman 24 May 20 - 04:55 AM
Backwoodsman 24 May 20 - 05:15 AM
Backwoodsman 24 May 20 - 05:31 AM
Jim Carroll 24 May 20 - 05:37 AM
Backwoodsman 24 May 20 - 06:01 AM
An Buachaill Caol Dubh 24 May 20 - 07:41 AM
Jim Carroll 24 May 20 - 08:15 AM
DMcG 24 May 20 - 08:29 AM
DMcG 24 May 20 - 08:38 AM
Nigel Parsons 24 May 20 - 11:02 AM
Nigel Parsons 24 May 20 - 11:04 AM
DMcG 24 May 20 - 11:18 AM
Steve Shaw 24 May 20 - 11:22 AM
DMcG 24 May 20 - 12:49 PM
Jim Carroll 24 May 20 - 01:15 PM
Jim Carroll 24 May 20 - 01:15 PM
Dave the Gnome 24 May 20 - 01:18 PM
punkfolkrocker 24 May 20 - 01:29 PM
Jim Carroll 24 May 20 - 01:53 PM
Dave the Gnome 24 May 20 - 01:59 PM
DMcG 24 May 20 - 02:11 PM
Dave the Gnome 24 May 20 - 02:12 PM
peteglasgow 24 May 20 - 02:35 PM
punkfolkrocker 24 May 20 - 02:36 PM
Backwoodsman 24 May 20 - 03:16 PM
Jim Carroll 24 May 20 - 03:32 PM
punkfolkrocker 24 May 20 - 04:20 PM
Raggytash 24 May 20 - 04:52 PM
Raggytash 24 May 20 - 05:13 PM
SPB-Cooperator 24 May 20 - 05:19 PM
SPB-Cooperator 24 May 20 - 05:27 PM
DMcG 24 May 20 - 05:46 PM
punkfolkrocker 24 May 20 - 07:32 PM
Backwoodsman 24 May 20 - 11:18 PM
DMcG 25 May 20 - 01:42 AM
Bonzo3legs 25 May 20 - 02:03 AM
Backwoodsman 25 May 20 - 02:26 AM
Bonzo3legs 25 May 20 - 02:29 AM
DMcG 25 May 20 - 02:37 AM
SPB-Cooperator 25 May 20 - 05:27 AM
Jim Carroll 25 May 20 - 06:03 AM
DMcG 25 May 20 - 06:12 AM
Dave the Gnome 25 May 20 - 06:49 AM
SPB-Cooperator 25 May 20 - 07:02 AM
SPB-Cooperator 25 May 20 - 07:10 AM
Shug Hanlan 25 May 20 - 07:27 AM
punkfolkrocker 25 May 20 - 11:01 AM
Backwoodsman 25 May 20 - 11:03 AM
SPB-Cooperator 25 May 20 - 12:36 PM
Raggytash 25 May 20 - 12:47 PM
peteglasgow 25 May 20 - 01:27 PM
SPB-Cooperator 25 May 20 - 01:37 PM
Steve Shaw 25 May 20 - 01:47 PM
punkfolkrocker 25 May 20 - 01:59 PM
fat B****rd 25 May 20 - 04:00 PM
punkfolkrocker 25 May 20 - 04:06 PM
Steve Shaw 25 May 20 - 04:16 PM
DMcG 26 May 20 - 02:32 AM
DMcG 26 May 20 - 08:00 AM
Backwoodsman 26 May 20 - 08:00 AM
Backwoodsman 26 May 20 - 08:02 AM
Backwoodsman 26 May 20 - 08:09 AM
Jim Carroll 26 May 20 - 08:14 AM
Raggytash 26 May 20 - 08:22 AM
DMcG 26 May 20 - 09:12 AM
punkfolkrocker 26 May 20 - 09:32 AM
Steve Shaw 26 May 20 - 11:28 AM
punkfolkrocker 26 May 20 - 11:46 AM
punkfolkrocker 26 May 20 - 11:50 AM
Steve Shaw 26 May 20 - 12:16 PM
Steve Shaw 26 May 20 - 12:20 PM
DMcG 26 May 20 - 12:31 PM
Dave the Gnome 26 May 20 - 12:32 PM
Backwoodsman 26 May 20 - 01:01 PM
DMcG 26 May 20 - 01:23 PM
DMcG 26 May 20 - 01:23 PM
punkfolkrocker 26 May 20 - 01:24 PM
Jim Carroll 26 May 20 - 01:50 PM
DMcG 26 May 20 - 02:10 PM
DMcG 26 May 20 - 02:14 PM
Backwoodsman 27 May 20 - 06:17 AM
DMcG 27 May 20 - 11:27 AM
Steve Shaw 27 May 20 - 05:28 PM
Backwoodsman 27 May 20 - 05:31 PM
Bonzo3legs 27 May 20 - 05:58 PM
DMcG 28 May 20 - 12:35 AM
The Sandman 28 May 20 - 01:25 AM
Jim Carroll 28 May 20 - 05:59 AM
Backwoodsman 28 May 20 - 06:24 AM
Backwoodsman 28 May 20 - 06:36 AM
peteglasgow 28 May 20 - 06:57 AM
Nigel Parsons 28 May 20 - 07:41 AM
DMcG 28 May 20 - 02:25 PM
punkfolkrocker 28 May 20 - 03:44 PM
Bonzo3legs 28 May 20 - 03:46 PM
DMcG 29 May 20 - 02:01 AM
DMcG 29 May 20 - 02:25 AM
Dave the Gnome 29 May 20 - 02:50 AM
Jim Carroll 29 May 20 - 03:55 AM
Steve Shaw 29 May 20 - 04:28 AM
Jim Carroll 29 May 20 - 04:35 AM
Nigel Parsons 29 May 20 - 05:32 AM
Jim Carroll 29 May 20 - 05:43 AM
The Sandman 29 May 20 - 06:57 AM
Backwoodsman 29 May 20 - 07:12 AM
Jim Carroll 29 May 20 - 08:12 AM
An Buachaill Caol Dubh 29 May 20 - 09:24 AM
Dave the Gnome 29 May 20 - 04:49 PM
An Buachaill Caol Dubh 29 May 20 - 07:07 PM
Jim Carroll 30 May 20 - 08:21 AM
punkfolkrocker 30 May 20 - 12:35 PM
Jim Carroll 30 May 20 - 01:12 PM
Backwoodsman 30 May 20 - 01:17 PM
Dave the Gnome 30 May 20 - 01:49 PM
punkfolkrocker 30 May 20 - 02:23 PM
Backwoodsman 30 May 20 - 04:11 PM
DMcG 30 May 20 - 04:17 PM
Raggytash 30 May 20 - 04:25 PM
An Buachaill Caol Dubh 30 May 20 - 04:38 PM
punkfolkrocker 30 May 20 - 04:49 PM
Backwoodsman 31 May 20 - 04:16 AM
Nigel Parsons 31 May 20 - 05:16 AM
DMcG 31 May 20 - 06:35 AM
Raggytash 31 May 20 - 07:02 AM
Jim Carroll 31 May 20 - 07:12 AM
Dave the Gnome 31 May 20 - 07:14 AM
Backwoodsman 31 May 20 - 08:58 AM
An Buachaill Caol Dubh 31 May 20 - 09:16 AM
Jim Carroll 31 May 20 - 11:03 AM
punkfolkrocker 31 May 20 - 01:12 PM
Nigel Parsons 31 May 20 - 01:56 PM
punkfolkrocker 31 May 20 - 02:08 PM
Dave the Gnome 31 May 20 - 02:20 PM
punkfolkrocker 31 May 20 - 03:17 PM
Jim Carroll 31 May 20 - 03:22 PM
Nigel Parsons 01 Jun 20 - 04:44 AM
Jim Carroll 01 Jun 20 - 05:09 AM
Backwoodsman 01 Jun 20 - 06:04 AM
Raggytash 01 Jun 20 - 07:30 AM
Raggytash 01 Jun 20 - 07:32 AM
Backwoodsman 01 Jun 20 - 08:01 AM
Jim Carroll 01 Jun 20 - 08:21 AM
Nigel Parsons 01 Jun 20 - 08:38 AM
DMcG 01 Jun 20 - 08:47 AM
Steve Shaw 01 Jun 20 - 08:54 AM
Dave the Gnome 01 Jun 20 - 09:01 AM
Raggytash 01 Jun 20 - 09:46 AM
Nigel Parsons 01 Jun 20 - 10:01 AM
DMcG 01 Jun 20 - 10:13 AM
punkfolkrocker 01 Jun 20 - 10:24 AM
Nigel Parsons 01 Jun 20 - 10:55 AM
punkfolkrocker 01 Jun 20 - 10:59 AM
Jim Carroll 01 Jun 20 - 11:24 AM
punkfolkrocker 01 Jun 20 - 11:26 AM
Rain Dog 01 Jun 20 - 11:33 AM
punkfolkrocker 01 Jun 20 - 11:53 AM
Dave the Gnome 01 Jun 20 - 12:01 PM
Rain Dog 01 Jun 20 - 12:02 PM
Jim Carroll 01 Jun 20 - 01:45 PM
Jim Carroll 01 Jun 20 - 01:54 PM
punkfolkrocker 01 Jun 20 - 02:08 PM
Stilly River Sage 01 Jun 20 - 02:47 PM
Donuel 02 Jun 20 - 05:53 AM
Rain Dog 02 Jun 20 - 06:23 AM
Steve Shaw 02 Jun 20 - 07:00 AM
DMcG 02 Jun 20 - 07:05 AM
Jim Carroll 02 Jun 20 - 07:19 AM
Nigel Parsons 02 Jun 20 - 07:23 AM
An Buachaill Caol Dubh 02 Jun 20 - 07:37 AM
An Buachaill Caol Dubh 02 Jun 20 - 07:49 AM
DMcG 02 Jun 20 - 08:24 AM
Rain Dog 02 Jun 20 - 08:33 AM
Steve Shaw 02 Jun 20 - 09:34 AM
Jim Carroll 02 Jun 20 - 09:49 AM
Jim Carroll 02 Jun 20 - 09:52 AM
punkfolkrocker 02 Jun 20 - 11:21 AM
DMcG 03 Jun 20 - 02:15 AM
Bonzo3legs 03 Jun 20 - 02:24 AM
punkfolkrocker 03 Jun 20 - 02:58 AM
DMcG 03 Jun 20 - 05:51 AM
Backwoodsman 03 Jun 20 - 05:27 PM
Steve Shaw 03 Jun 20 - 07:11 PM
DMcG 04 Jun 20 - 03:50 AM
punkfolkrocker 04 Jun 20 - 04:10 AM
DMcG 04 Jun 20 - 07:15 AM
Steve Shaw 04 Jun 20 - 10:26 AM
DMcG 04 Jun 20 - 10:53 AM
punkfolkrocker 04 Jun 20 - 01:45 PM
Backwoodsman 06 Jun 20 - 04:49 AM
Dave the Gnome 06 Jun 20 - 06:07 AM
Backwoodsman 06 Jun 20 - 06:50 AM
Jim Carroll 06 Jun 20 - 08:32 AM
Backwoodsman 06 Jun 20 - 08:55 AM
Jim Carroll 06 Jun 20 - 12:39 PM
Raggytash 06 Jun 20 - 12:49 PM
punkfolkrocker 06 Jun 20 - 01:08 PM
punkfolkrocker 06 Jun 20 - 01:10 PM
Nigel Parsons 06 Jun 20 - 02:17 PM
punkfolkrocker 06 Jun 20 - 02:23 PM
Nigel Parsons 06 Jun 20 - 02:27 PM
punkfolkrocker 06 Jun 20 - 02:38 PM
Jim Carroll 06 Jun 20 - 03:27 PM
Jim Carroll 06 Jun 20 - 03:30 PM
DMcG 07 Jun 20 - 02:18 AM
Jim Carroll 07 Jun 20 - 03:22 AM
DMcG 07 Jun 20 - 03:44 AM
Jim Carroll 07 Jun 20 - 05:48 AM
DMcG 07 Jun 20 - 09:40 AM
Jim Carroll 08 Jun 20 - 02:59 AM
DMcG 08 Jun 20 - 06:06 AM
Nigel Parsons 08 Jun 20 - 06:28 AM
Jim Carroll 08 Jun 20 - 06:45 AM
Nigel Parsons 08 Jun 20 - 06:53 AM
DMcG 08 Jun 20 - 06:58 AM
peteglasgow 08 Jun 20 - 08:12 AM
Jim Carroll 08 Jun 20 - 08:21 AM
Steve Shaw 08 Jun 20 - 09:34 AM
Jim Carroll 09 Jun 20 - 02:48 AM
Backwoodsman 09 Jun 20 - 03:46 AM
An Buachaill Caol Dubh 09 Jun 20 - 04:15 AM
Jim Carroll 09 Jun 20 - 06:01 AM
Nigel Parsons 09 Jun 20 - 06:02 AM
Steve Shaw 09 Jun 20 - 06:08 AM
DMcG 09 Jun 20 - 06:13 AM
Donuel 09 Jun 20 - 06:15 AM
Nigel Parsons 09 Jun 20 - 06:16 AM
Rain Dog 09 Jun 20 - 06:21 AM
Nigel Parsons 09 Jun 20 - 06:23 AM
Steve Shaw 09 Jun 20 - 06:24 AM
DMcG 09 Jun 20 - 06:42 AM
Raggytash 09 Jun 20 - 07:00 AM
Steve Shaw 09 Jun 20 - 07:00 AM
DMcG 09 Jun 20 - 07:08 AM
Steve Shaw 09 Jun 20 - 07:09 AM
Jim Carroll 09 Jun 20 - 07:19 AM
peteglasgow 09 Jun 20 - 07:26 AM
Backwoodsman 09 Jun 20 - 07:48 AM
An Buachaill Caol Dubh 09 Jun 20 - 08:10 AM
Jim Carroll 09 Jun 20 - 08:19 AM
punkfolkrocker 09 Jun 20 - 01:28 PM
Jim Carroll 10 Jun 20 - 05:36 AM
DMcG 10 Jun 20 - 06:12 AM
Steve Shaw 10 Jun 20 - 06:36 AM
Dave the Gnome 10 Jun 20 - 07:27 AM
Jim Carroll 10 Jun 20 - 07:38 AM
Mossback 10 Jun 20 - 08:42 AM
punkfolkrocker 10 Jun 20 - 09:35 AM
An Buachaill Caol Dubh 10 Jun 20 - 11:18 AM
punkfolkrocker 10 Jun 20 - 11:36 AM
Raggytash 10 Jun 20 - 12:36 PM
Jim Carroll 10 Jun 20 - 12:41 PM
An Buachaill Caol Dubh 10 Jun 20 - 01:37 PM
Raggytash 10 Jun 20 - 01:59 PM
punkfolkrocker 10 Jun 20 - 02:20 PM
An Buachaill Caol Dubh 10 Jun 20 - 03:13 PM
peteglasgow 12 Jun 20 - 05:00 PM
An Buachaill Caol Dubh 12 Jun 20 - 07:15 PM
punkfolkrocker 12 Jun 20 - 07:47 PM
punkfolkrocker 12 Jun 20 - 07:49 PM
Steve Shaw 12 Jun 20 - 07:56 PM
peteglasgow 13 Jun 20 - 01:57 AM
peteglasgow 13 Jun 20 - 02:06 AM
Jim Carroll 13 Jun 20 - 03:04 AM
Monique 13 Jun 20 - 03:07 AM
DMcG 13 Jun 20 - 03:31 AM
Jim Carroll 13 Jun 20 - 03:36 AM
Jim Carroll 13 Jun 20 - 07:05 AM
punkfolkrocker 13 Jun 20 - 10:35 AM
Jim Carroll 13 Jun 20 - 10:39 AM
punkfolkrocker 13 Jun 20 - 10:49 AM
Jim Carroll 13 Jun 20 - 01:28 PM
Nigel Parsons 13 Jun 20 - 02:36 PM
punkfolkrocker 13 Jun 20 - 02:49 PM
Nigel Parsons 13 Jun 20 - 04:22 PM
punkfolkrocker 13 Jun 20 - 04:55 PM
Dave the Gnome 14 Jun 20 - 02:37 AM
Jim Carroll 14 Jun 20 - 02:49 AM
Backwoodsman 14 Jun 20 - 02:56 AM
Nigel Parsons 14 Jun 20 - 05:49 AM
Jim Carroll 14 Jun 20 - 07:10 AM
Backwoodsman 14 Jun 20 - 07:44 AM
DMcG 14 Jun 20 - 07:51 AM
DMcG 14 Jun 20 - 07:54 AM
Backwoodsman 14 Jun 20 - 08:06 AM
punkfolkrocker 14 Jun 20 - 10:35 AM
Doug Chadwick 15 Jun 20 - 10:11 AM
Jim Carroll 15 Jun 20 - 11:01 AM
DMcG 15 Jun 20 - 11:07 AM
Nigel Parsons 15 Jun 20 - 11:48 AM
Jim Carroll 15 Jun 20 - 12:01 PM
peteglasgow 16 Jun 20 - 02:33 AM
Jim Carroll 16 Jun 20 - 04:33 AM
Rain Dog 16 Jun 20 - 04:50 AM
DMcG 16 Jun 20 - 07:46 AM
Jim Carroll 16 Jun 20 - 08:31 AM
Jim Carroll 16 Jun 20 - 02:06 PM
punkfolkrocker 16 Jun 20 - 02:08 PM
DMcG 16 Jun 20 - 03:46 PM
Donuel 16 Jun 20 - 04:48 PM
Donuel 16 Jun 20 - 04:53 PM
Jim Carroll 17 Jun 20 - 02:24 AM
DMcG 19 Jun 20 - 09:07 AM
Nigel Parsons 19 Jun 20 - 04:25 PM
DMcG 20 Jun 20 - 06:29 AM
Jim Carroll 20 Jun 20 - 08:09 AM
Nigel Parsons 21 Jun 20 - 05:20 AM
Backwoodsman 21 Jun 20 - 05:40 AM
DMcG 21 Jun 20 - 05:54 AM
punkfolkrocker 24 Jun 20 - 01:05 AM
peteglasgow 24 Jun 20 - 02:33 AM
Backwoodsman 24 Jun 20 - 02:55 AM
DMcG 24 Jun 20 - 04:32 AM
Backwoodsman 24 Jun 20 - 05:43 AM
peteglasgow 24 Jun 20 - 12:40 PM
Backwoodsman 24 Jun 20 - 02:09 PM
punkfolkrocker 24 Jun 20 - 02:42 PM
Backwoodsman 24 Jun 20 - 03:40 PM
The Sandman 24 Jun 20 - 04:29 PM
Stilly River Sage 24 Jun 20 - 04:36 PM
Backwoodsman 24 Jun 20 - 05:16 PM
Dave the Gnome 24 Jun 20 - 05:30 PM
The Sandman 25 Jun 20 - 01:31 AM
Jim Carroll 25 Jun 20 - 02:33 AM
The Sandman 25 Jun 20 - 02:38 AM
Dave the Gnome 25 Jun 20 - 02:39 AM
Jim Carroll 25 Jun 20 - 03:18 AM
Dave the Gnome 25 Jun 20 - 03:33 AM
Jim Carroll 25 Jun 20 - 04:03 AM
Dave the Gnome 25 Jun 20 - 04:16 AM
The Sandman 25 Jun 20 - 04:42 AM
Jim Carroll 25 Jun 20 - 05:01 AM
DMcG 25 Jun 20 - 05:14 AM
Backwoodsman 25 Jun 20 - 10:50 AM
Backwoodsman 25 Jun 20 - 10:51 AM
Jim Carroll 25 Jun 20 - 11:32 AM
The Sandman 25 Jun 20 - 11:36 AM
Jim Carroll 25 Jun 20 - 12:30 PM
punkfolkrocker 25 Jun 20 - 12:57 PM
Dave the Gnome 25 Jun 20 - 04:43 PM
Steve Shaw 25 Jun 20 - 06:26 PM
Jim Carroll 26 Jun 20 - 03:32 AM
Rain Dog 26 Jun 20 - 04:28 AM
Backwoodsman 26 Jun 20 - 04:57 AM
Jim Carroll 26 Jun 20 - 05:04 AM
DMcG 26 Jun 20 - 05:10 AM
Backwoodsman 26 Jun 20 - 05:52 AM
Jim Carroll 26 Jun 20 - 06:14 AM
Steve Shaw 26 Jun 20 - 06:42 AM
Backwoodsman 26 Jun 20 - 06:43 AM
Steve Shaw 26 Jun 20 - 06:49 AM
Jim Carroll 26 Jun 20 - 06:52 AM
Doug Chadwick 26 Jun 20 - 07:08 AM
Steve Shaw 26 Jun 20 - 07:16 AM
Backwoodsman 26 Jun 20 - 07:38 AM
Jim Carroll 26 Jun 20 - 07:49 AM
Rain Dog 26 Jun 20 - 07:58 AM
Jim Carroll 26 Jun 20 - 07:58 AM
Backwoodsman 26 Jun 20 - 08:15 AM
Jim Carroll 26 Jun 20 - 08:23 AM
Jim Carroll 26 Jun 20 - 08:27 AM
Backwoodsman 26 Jun 20 - 08:51 AM
punkfolkrocker 26 Jun 20 - 09:05 AM
Steve Shaw 26 Jun 20 - 09:22 AM
Jim Carroll 26 Jun 20 - 09:25 AM
peteglasgow 26 Jun 20 - 09:32 AM
Backwoodsman 26 Jun 20 - 09:34 AM
Backwoodsman 26 Jun 20 - 09:38 AM
Backwoodsman 26 Jun 20 - 09:39 AM
Jim Carroll 26 Jun 20 - 10:21 AM
Rain Dog 26 Jun 20 - 10:24 AM
Steve Shaw 26 Jun 20 - 10:25 AM
Rain Dog 26 Jun 20 - 11:05 AM
punkfolkrocker 26 Jun 20 - 11:29 AM
Backwoodsman 26 Jun 20 - 11:30 AM
Rain Dog 26 Jun 20 - 11:40 AM
punkfolkrocker 26 Jun 20 - 11:42 AM
Jim Carroll 26 Jun 20 - 11:47 AM
Jim Carroll 26 Jun 20 - 11:57 AM
punkfolkrocker 26 Jun 20 - 12:26 PM
Jim Carroll 26 Jun 20 - 01:15 PM
Backwoodsman 26 Jun 20 - 01:59 PM
Jim Carroll 26 Jun 20 - 02:54 PM
Backwoodsman 26 Jun 20 - 03:48 PM
punkfolkrocker 26 Jun 20 - 04:12 PM
Dave the Gnome 26 Jun 20 - 05:51 PM
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Subject: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Barb'ry
Date: 23 Apr 20 - 08:27 PM

here we are again...


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Apr 20 - 08:44 PM

And you expect it to make a difference. Wow! :-(


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 23 Apr 20 - 10:46 PM

Barb'ry - cheers..

If we can have sensible discussion between different British political sides,
whilst maintaining a fair working relationship with you as our mod..

..what a wonderful world this would be...

Up to now our little internet microcosm
reflects what can happen in the the big old real world,
when subjugated communities struggle under the boot of heavy handed police intervention...
Fortunately so far, we've not risen up in our ghetto,
and burnt down all our own shops and homes in futile protest..

We're too British for that..
Though we might just get a bit disgruntled enough
to write a letter of complaint to our local newspaper...

Right then..
My question to kick off this new thread..

News headline this morning:

"Essential workers and families to get tests"..

So, does that include my Teacher wife and me...???


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: An Buachaill Caol Dubh
Date: 23 Apr 20 - 11:22 PM

No.
Teachers haven't been regarded as essential to the Polloi for some time now; as Voltaire put it, it wouldn't do to teach the peasantry to read - "who then would plough the fields". They might even get ideas above their station. I write regretfully, as one formerly involved in higher education.

On the other hand, maybe you teach computing, and how to construct "Apps". I was kinda hoping the "predictive text facility" or whatever would have made that "Apes".


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Apr 20 - 02:20 AM

When it comes to something as essential as testing, son't people find it a little alarming that it should be divided into 'essential and inessential' ?
It rises several questions:
[a] Is thete not enough equipment to go around. if not, why not?
[b] Who decides and on what basis?
Somewhat drawing straw in the lifeboat-ish - I have several songs about what happens when the food runs out !

We live in a society where the importance of people is not based on skill or the contribution to society, but to the power they wield by their wealth - even the highest skilled among us are judged by whether there are enough of them to be replaced, particularly at a lower cost
That hasn't worked well in normal times - in today's situation I find it somewhat chilling

I#m a bit of a sucker for Sci-fi thrillers such as the excellent recent BBC remake of 'War of the Worlds'
The one I find really spookily co-incidental is one entitled 'Cobra' where a natural disaster (a sunspot) knocks out all the power in Britain - a middle of the road Conservative Government is faced with deciding which part of mainland Britain get's the power back and which doesn't - The North East loses out with devastating consequences, a Tommy Robinson-alike takes over.....
Television chewing-gum, but every bit as thought provoking as 'Noughts and Crosses'
God - the things you do when you've time on your hands :-)
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: DMcG
Date: 24 Apr 20 - 03:34 AM

In the nightly press conference it was quite heartening to hear the scientists finally pushing back and pointing out that while they provide information, it is the politicians that take decisions. I have made similar points many times in earlier threads, but the media have usually seemed to stop exploring things when the government spokesperson says 'we are following the science.' I would like to see every scientist on news programming emphasising that it is the politicians who decide, not them.

One thing I expect to cause massive confusion later on is the matter of false-positives and false negatives in tests. This is relatively subtle and between the wish in politics to give simple messages, a lack of understanding on their part and a fairly limited understanding of maths in both the media and the general population, I anticipate a great of poor, misleading and downright wrong information to be given out.   But it is critical if you are adopting a "test and trace" approach, which the government now seems to belatedly recognising is vital.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: DMcG
Date: 24 Apr 20 - 03:47 AM

Just after posting that I read an email from Louise Jordan, who is a singer/songwriter who typically works on projects. For example, one is "No Petticoats Here" about women in and at the time of the first world war.

Her latest project is on Florence Nightingale, who as many of you will know is important for her use of statistics and the development of ways of presenting them. Arguably, it is this aspect of her work that has been more influential than on nursing directly.

Anyway, she has just released a song from the album called 'Statistics save Lives': "Use the Maths and Use the Science".   It is available to listen to online, but she has password protected it for people on her mailing list, so I will not post the details here.

It is highly relevant to the current situation, but quite by chance.

Her website is here


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Apr 20 - 04:17 AM

"but the media have usually seemed to stop exploring things"
T think this is true - the least "aligned" of the media make public things like THIS, it is ignored or denied by them in charge, than all but The Guardian and the Indie, both noted for their highly reputable investigative journalist, drop it
In the case of testing, this remains a major problem and a bone of contention with those who have to mop up the mess
Indifference rule OK with far too many, it seems
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 24 Apr 20 - 04:25 AM

In the meanwhile I see that Trump is suggesting that injecting disinfectant could be a good treatment for Covid19. I suppose we should be thankful that Boris is just ineffective rather than downright dangerouos.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Iains
Date: 24 Apr 20 - 04:32 AM

In the meanwhile I see that Trump is suggesting that injecting disinfectant could be a good treatment for Covid19.

A fine example of meejah distortion and propagation of false news

His actual words tell a different story, but that hardly suits the narrative. Does it?.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Apr 20 - 04:38 AM

Following the science is fine when the science is settled. The science is quite clearly behind the curve in many regards and it's good to see scientists, a generally honest bunch, biting back (I was reading a piece on this in the Guardian just before looking at this thread). Following the science allows you one day to blame the science. It's scarcely beyond the imagination to suspect that this shoddy government sees that as a card up its sleeve.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 24 Apr 20 - 04:53 AM

From BBC news Outcry after Trump suggests injecting disinfectant as treatment

His actual words

"And then I see the disinfectant where it knocks it out in a minute. One minute. And is there a way we can do something like that, by injection inside or almost a cleaning?

"So it'd be interesting to check that."
°

I suppose it will become fake news when he denies ever having said it.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Apr 20 - 04:57 AM

"I suppose it will become fake news when he denies ever having said it."
Hew we have to rely on a fake fake new purveyor
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Iains
Date: 24 Apr 20 - 05:01 AM

Your quote says the Prsident suggests.He actually asked a question.
You and the meedjah may wish to skip over the vital distinction, other more probing minds do not.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Iains
Date: 24 Apr 20 - 05:24 AM

UV light and Dalek approach to virus control.


https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1280232/


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Apr 20 - 05:35 AM

China has donated 30 million to the World Health Organisation
Another kick up the arse for the Pratt on Pennsylvania Avenue
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: DMcG
Date: 24 Apr 20 - 06:57 AM

Is it really necessary to point out using UV to kill viruses on a surface is a completely different thing to killing it inside a human body? As that article makes clear "UV radiation kills viruses by chemically modifying their genetic material, DNA and RNA." Just what you want inside a human made up of lots of DNA.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: peteglasgow
Date: 24 Apr 20 - 07:17 AM

( suppose it may help us on here if we try not to involve american topics - there's plenty of stuff going on in these islands without looking to the horror show over the atlantic)
i've just had a very beautiful walk in nearby woods and met a couple of people on the path....we discussed redstarts, pied flycatchers, curlews calling and what a beautiful racket blackcaps are making today etc etc. how great to escape all the news. all 3 of us don't have or watch the tv for news - i love the radio (fip radio france for music (or my son's show on radio Bari in Italy) a great selection of streamed genres - no ads and very little parlezing. For news i like to listen to radio scotland - i'm usually very impressed with nicola sturgeoan - straightforward, empatheitc and sensible and preferable to whoever is spouting the westminster gibberish any day. and obviously - we get the guardian and the New European delivered. delivered. it's amazing how long i can spend reading newspapers while trying to avoid the news!


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Iains
Date: 24 Apr 20 - 07:28 AM

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4504358/
The abstract: Make of it what you will

The H1N1 “Spanish flu” outbreak of 1918–1919 was the most devastating pandemic on record, killing between 50 million and 100 million people. Should the next influenza pandemic prove equally virulent, there could be more than 300 million deaths globally. The conventional view is that little could have been done to prevent the H1N1 virus from spreading or to treat those infected; however, there is evidence to the contrary. Records from an “open-air” hospital in Boston, Massachusetts, suggest that some patients and staff were spared the worst of the outbreak. A combination of fresh air, sunlight, scrupulous standards of hygiene, and reusable face masks appears to have substantially reduced deaths among some patients and infections among medical staff. We argue that temporary hospitals should be a priority in emergency planning. Equally, other measures adopted during the 1918 pandemic merit more attention than they currently receive.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: DMcG
Date: 24 Apr 20 - 07:36 AM

You are right, Workingtonman, there is more than enough politics on this side of the ocean. There seems to be a big shift in tone this week to me, broadly since last Sunday's Times article criticising the government. In the past few days we have head of the 400,000 gowns from Turkey being 32,000; the 'book a home test' running out of slots on the first day, criticism of the testing centre at Chessington for apparently losing tests, rejection for the government's attempt to switch from 'tests' to 'capacity to test' … it goes on.

But you are also right that having a walk in countryside or whatever is good for you. As I have mild asthma my daughter is very keen I don't go out at all, but today my wife and I snuck out to some nearby woods where we encountered three people in the half an hour or so we were out.   And, as you say, we heard a good variety of wildlife. I also took the opportunity to examine the curling of some fern fronds - something I regret to say I haven't looked closely at for many decades. Equally, some intact 'dandelion clocks'. There is much to appreciate now we are able to slow down and take a proper look. Some friends of mine do essentially the same walk every day, and take around 20 photos each time. The amount there is to see is, as Dumbledore would put it, "surprising in a way, but as you think about it, not really surprising at all."


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 24 Apr 20 - 08:04 AM

I wasn't introducing the Orange one's nonsense for further discussion really. Just saying that it makes our Boris look almost sensible. I suppose we should be grateful for small mercies:-)


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 24 Apr 20 - 08:11 AM

Whether Agent-Orange) suggested injections or drinking of disinfectant as a ‘cure’ for Covid-19 or not, the BBC have taken his utterance seriously enough this morning to firmly warn listeners and viewers that disinfectant must not, under any circumstances, be ingested or injected into the body.

They obviously regard either Agent-Orange, or those who listen to what he says, or both, as terminally stupid.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 24 Apr 20 - 08:12 AM

Firmly, and repeatedly warn...


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Apr 20 - 08:22 AM

Medical experts in the US have just expressed their horror at the suggestion of injecting bleach for any reason - funny how far you the scalee this "fake news" reaches
Mind you, the news item carried the film of Trump actually saying it - maybe "fake film" as well !

The new Government site where essential health workers were invited to register for immediate testing, has almost immediately closed due to over-subscription in somewhat of a quandary as to where to go from here
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Raggytash
Date: 24 Apr 20 - 08:37 AM

What Trump actually said:

“And then I see the disinfectant where it knocks it out in a minute,” Trump said. “One minute! And is there a way we can do something, by an injection inside or almost a cleaning? Because you see it gets in the lungs and it does a tremendous number on the lungs, so it’d be interesting to check that. So, that you’re going to have to use medical doctors with, but it sounds interesting to me.”

Sounds to me like he was suggesting injecting disinfectant.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: gillymor
Date: 24 Apr 20 - 08:42 AM

He keeps swinging for the fences but he doesn't have a bat in his hands.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Iains
Date: 24 Apr 20 - 08:54 AM

I am surprisd so many cannot distiguish between a statement and a question.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Apr 20 - 08:54 AM

My bad - I think you're right
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: gillymor
Date: 24 Apr 20 - 09:00 AM

Instead putting out horseshit like this a responsible leader would just say "we're looking into alternate forms of treatment" and leave it at that. Some MAGA hat-wearing dimwit is probably chugging Lysol as we speak.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 24 Apr 20 - 09:20 AM

”I am surprisd so many cannot distiguish between a statement and a question.“

I’m not surprised in the least, the evidence of people’s lack of judgement is clearly demonstrated in the results of the most recent US-Presidential, and UK-General, elections.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: gillymor
Date: 24 Apr 20 - 09:25 AM

In my last post horseshit got auto-corrected to horseshoe.

Fixed.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Iains
Date: 24 Apr 20 - 09:29 AM

I’m not surprised in the least, the evidence of people’s lack of judgement is clearly demonstrated in the results of the most recent US-Presidential, and UK-General, elections.


However it was the majority under both electoral systems elected the blond bombshells. The right are in the ascendency and you cannot do diddly squat to change anything. How very sad for you. It is the failing of democracy that the majority win and the minority lose. Claiming to have won the argument performed miracles at the polls for magic grandad, did it not?
His inferior party was smote mightily and cast into the wilderness while the winners cheered and celebrated an escape from a disaster.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Raggytash
Date: 24 Apr 20 - 09:36 AM

"Don't inject Lysol": maker of household cleaner hits back at Trump virus claim.

Trump Claim


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: peteglasgow
Date: 24 Apr 20 - 09:40 AM

there is a very good case for some form of PR in england/wales. the scottish government already has a functioning PR system, a much more reasonable and considerate parliamentary debate and a competent and responsive government. while only a handful of fptp MSPs are elected while the SNP is so popular, there are plenty of 'list MSPs' to ensure that minority voices are heard and considered in the chamber. i used to think that england should transfer to a similar system - but only after 3 terms of a competent democratic socialist government in the european model. but now - i'd go for PR tomorrow as a quick way to more sensible government. (though of course the liberals could mess this up as well with their relentless tory-lite approach) (d'oh!)


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: DMcG
Date: 24 Apr 20 - 10:30 AM

From a Guardian article:

Caroline Criado-Perez, whose book "Invisible Women" addresses the issue of ill-fitting PPE for women in one of its chapters, said she has been inundated with messages from healthcare workers who could not find protective equipment to fit them.
“Respiratory protective equipment is designed for a male face, and if it doesn’t fit it won’t protect,” she said. “Because of a dearth of sex disaggregated data we don’t know how many women are affected, but I am hearing on a daily basis from women in the NHS who say they can’t get their masks to fit.”

===

As I have said before, getting PPE is not the only criteria. It needs to be PPE of the right size and much of it is not suitable for women.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 24 Apr 20 - 11:19 AM

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 23 Apr 20 - 10:46 PM
. . .
My question to kick off this new thread..
News headline this morning:
"Essential workers and families to get tests"..
So, does that include my Teacher wife and me...???


Contrary to ABCD's immediate response, if your wife is a teacher she is included in the new testing regime (once the initial 'surge' on the availability settles down)
Details are on Gov.UK
That page mentions 'essential workers' and links to a list of Here where the list of essential workers includes:
List of essential workers and those prioritised for testing (England only)
. . .
education and childcare workers, including:
support and teaching staff
social workers
specialist education professionals


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 24 Apr 20 - 01:14 PM

Homeopathy, a word which NHS doctors for whom we all clap on a Thursday scorn full sore, may have something for the Coronavirus.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 24 Apr 20 - 01:29 PM

I am surprisd so many cannot distiguish between a statement and a question.

Are you, Iains? Or are you just so daft as not to see a statement disguised as a question to cover your own arse?

:D


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 24 Apr 20 - 01:36 PM

Sorry for the misformating. Can someone take the italics off after "questin" please?


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: DMcG
Date: 24 Apr 20 - 01:59 PM

I see the Guardian is reporting that Dominic Cummings is a member of the SAGE group, which is supposed to be giving independent scientific advice to the government.

I am sure some will dismiss it just because the Guardian is reporting it, but let's take a wider question. Is it ever appropriate than a political appointee with no scientific background at all is able to influence the conclusions of the group, and if so when? If the government were to confirm he is an appointee, would you be comfortable? And if he is not, under what conditions would you think it appropriate he become a member?

Note that anything equivalent to "anyone the PM decides to appoint can be a member" is not answering the question.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Iains
Date: 24 Apr 20 - 04:07 PM

MPs, if a person was to genralize, have humanity degrees. This is not the best background for making judgement calls on scientific data. Having a spad like Dominic Cummins to reach to the nitty gritty is invaluable. Several oil companies I worked for brought in facilitators to bring a focus to specific problems and their solution. Their function can be summarised thus:
    Design and plan the group process, and select the tools that best help the group progress towards that outcome.
    Guide and control the group process to ensure that the above objectives are met.
    Ensure that outcomes, actions and questions are properly recorded and actioned, and appropriately dealt with afterwards.(ie lead the "lessons learnt" process)
I would see the role of Dominic Cummins as being broadly comparable to that of a facilitator. One single person able to bring a focus to disparate threads and guide/control the decision making process.
The few facilitators I encountered were geeky and super smart.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: DMcG
Date: 24 Apr 20 - 04:33 PM

Others views may differ, but the accounts we have heard of Dominic Cummings do not suggest he would be a good facilitator, since a key part of being a facilitator is giving everyone a chance to express their views, whether you agree or not, and then getting the group to reach an agreement using their skills, again whether you agree with their conclusion or not.   That does not sound like a pen picture of Cummings.

But again, what is the desired outcome? This is a scientific group charged with giving the best possible scientific advice. If the facilitator is trying to ensure the recommended outcome is politically acceptable, it is not achieving its outcome. So if you have to have a facilitor, to meet the outcome, you need someone outside the political bodies.   As with justice being seen to be done as well as being done, the scientific advice needs to be demonstrably free from political bias. This is especially true if the government is relying on the 'following the best scientific advice' defence.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: An Buachaill Caol Dubh
Date: 24 Apr 20 - 04:37 PM

For how long did they listen to you?


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Apr 20 - 04:52 PM

Bloody good question, ABCD...


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Iains
Date: 24 Apr 20 - 04:56 PM

There is no system that is perfect and trying to get a consencus off a room full of experts is the stuff of dreams. So far thegovernment approch seems to be correct as far as lockdown is concerned.I would take issue with heathrow and ferries still allowing suipposedly unfettered access. The issue with PPE is by no means unique to britain, neither is the issue of test reliability. Frequency of testing may be a valis criticism.Not knowing all the facts I cannot comment. I think trying toplay a political blame game at this juncture is wasteful. Analysisof what couldhave been is for a later time. When every action is to a large extent on the fly having the opposition party pointing fingers and the media let loose as attack dogs serves no purpose. This is not a dress rehersal and mistakes cost lives. Personally I find the media behaviour at the daily press conferance an embarassment. The media are there purely to question and report not behave as media stars seekin "gotcha" moments. This behaviour will almost certainly lose the BBC its taxpayer funding once the dust settles. If the government has made mistakes they will inevitably be found out. I have no reason not to believe that if an action is found to be wrong then it will be rectified. There are simply too many flapping mouths for any kind of secret to be kept.
Do you seriously think Labour would not have reacted in a broadly similar way?


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Raggytash
Date: 24 Apr 20 - 05:07 PM

To have a "senior" spin doctor on a committee can only lead to people questioning the independence of that committee.

The scientists are appointed to provide the governments with the best advise possible given current knowledge.

Having the likes of Cummings and Ben warner on a Scientific Advisory Group can only undermine the publics perception of the advice.

It is not time to play politics with information like this.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 24 Apr 20 - 05:11 PM

What anybody **thinks** Labour might, or might not, have done is totally immaterial. As you take such orgasmic delight in reminding us, they lost the General Election and Johnson’s Tories have a majority of 81, which renders them unchallengeable.So put a sock in the diversionary horse-shit.

Everything that happens since the GE is Johnson’s problem. He wanted it, he got it.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Iains
Date: 24 Apr 20 - 05:47 PM

As you take such orgasmic delight in reminding us, they lost the General Election and Johnson’s Tories have a majority of 81, which renders them unchallengeable.So put a sock in the diversionary horse-shit.

Obviously a poor loser! I should get used to the idea. It will be a cold day in hell before labour takes the reins again, and that gives me a warm toasty feeling inside!.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Apr 20 - 07:09 PM

Troll alert. As ever.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Mossback
Date: 24 Apr 20 - 07:14 PM

Homeopathy... may have something for the Coronavirus.


Absolutely.

Also Scientology, Flat-Earthism, Anti-Vaxxers and the "5G Causes Covid 19" crew.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 25 Apr 20 - 02:42 AM

”Troll alert. As ever.“

When does he ever do anything else, Steve. At least he seems to be eschewing the personal insults at the moment (‘poor loser’ really doesn’t even register on the Richter-Scale of Abuse AFAIC).

It just strikes me as very strange that someone who celebrates the Conservative majority with posts like, ”It will be a cold day in hell before labour takes the reins again, and that gives me a warm toasty feeling inside!”, is so concerned with what Labour might or might not have done if they were in power right now. FWIW, and from a pragmatic POV, I agree with him, but ‘what Labour would have done‘ is of absolutely no consequence, they have no power - not even as an opposition, because their numbers in parliament are insufficient for there to be any possibility of defeating the government in a vote - so dragging that red-herring out at every available opportunity is pointless, and not even worthy of a response.

When he’s not quoting ‘Seaman’ Staines, or deceitfully C&P-ing pieces without accreditation in order to make it look like his own words, he’s a real lightweight.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Apr 20 - 02:55 AM

"Labour might, or might not, have done is totally immaterial"
Any discussion of Labour, Lib-dems, Greens..... is immaterial in today's politics - a diversion away from the **** ups,   
Britain is now basically ruled over by a trio of ruthless sickos - Johnson the Brainless, 'Mad Maggie Patel' and the unelected Dom Scummings - they even cast aside any of they own collegues who don't measure DOWN to their own level like sacrificed chess-pieces   - nobody else has a say in what happens in today's Crisis Britan - hence the trail of devastation, tardiness and mistakes in tackling the crisis
What better tactic than to focus the attention on people outside this 'Circle of Friends'
The opinions of medical experts who are suggesting heads have to roll and the culprits having to be made answerable, or those front line "moaners" demanding decent protective equipment plastic bags some of them have been forced to wear - all marginalised with pie-in-the-sky promises instead of the or just simply ignored
Let' talk about Labour instead - just like "It was the last Labour Government wot dunnit
Even the Tories have abandoned the pretense of principles with a series of putsches and one particular 'Night of the Long Knives'
Pity Brecht isn't still around to write a follow-up to 'The Resistible Rise of Arturo Ui'
Dangerous days on all fronts
The only people to be discussing here is The Twisted Trio
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Apr 20 - 02:59 AM

Are my eyes deceiving me Baccie or are you giving the individual "The fresh air of publicity" :-)
It gets to the best if you take your eyes off the ball
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 25 Apr 20 - 03:06 AM

Well yes, Jim - as I said in my post of 24 Apr 20 - 05:11 PM, it’s diversionary horse-shit and barely worth a response. I won’t be wasting any more Mudcat server-space, or my own time, Responding to or even thinking about his childish, lightweight diversion-tactics.

Over and out (unless or until something worthwhile comes up).


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Apr 20 - 08:20 AM

It's just been announced that the helpline for essential Covit workers that was opened again this morning closed within a couple of hours due to being unable to respond to requests
The only few left are in Scotland
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Mossback
Date: 25 Apr 20 - 09:59 AM

Homeopathy, a word which NHS doctors for whom we all clap on a Thursday scorn full sore, may have something for the Coronavirus.

Nah, Bonz, this is even better than Homeopathy:


Cristina Cuomo revealed that she took Clorox baths and used vitamin drips, among other things, to try to speed up her recovery.

Cuomo also detailed how she took bleach baths, adding "½ cup ONLY of Clorox" to her regular baths to help "combat the radiation and metals in my system and oxygenate it."

"We want to neutralize heavy metals because they slow-up the electromagnetic frequency of our cells, which is our energy field, and we need a good flow of energy,"
she wrote.

See Also:

https://thepuristonline.com/2020/04/the-cuomos-corona-protocol-week-3/


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: DMcG
Date: 25 Apr 20 - 12:15 PM

So at today's press conference Stephen Powis (National Medical Director of NHS England) was asked directly what questions Cummings asked at SAGE meetings, and responded by saying how had a lot of eminent scientists on it. But did not mention Cummings.

So the follow up question again asked about Cumming's questions, and again he avoided even mentioning Cummings.


I m sure he was doing as advised, but he has just demonstrated that SAGE is not politically independent. And in doing so, he has undermined any claim that the government is making to following the best scientific advice.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 25 Apr 20 - 12:47 PM

Apparently a vicar who injected himself with Domestos has died. His family are sueing Trump for a bleach of the priest.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Iains
Date: 25 Apr 20 - 01:44 PM

"Labour might, or might not, have done is totally immaterial"
Any discussion of Labour, Lib-dems, Greens..... is immaterial in today's politics - a diversion away from the **** ups,


NOPE!


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 25 Apr 20 - 01:57 PM

Apparently a vicar who .....

Never set any store on information that starts with "Apparently".

DC


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 25 Apr 20 - 02:01 PM

Sorry Dave. I didn't read it properly first time.

DC


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 25 Apr 20 - 02:18 PM

The old ones are the best! :-) ;-)


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 25 Apr 20 - 02:34 PM

's ok, Doug.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 26 Apr 20 - 04:19 AM

Does anyone else get fed up of this? I know the Americans do although it beats my why they come on a UK politics thread.

Basically, someone criticises the Tories. The response is Labour would do no better. It is pointed out that Labour have not been in power for 10 years. Antisemitism rears its head. Accusations of racism start to fly. Someone tries to make a sensible point. Insults and propaganda abound. The thread is closed.

Well, I have a radical new idea. From today, for two weeks, I am taking myself out of politics. This is not capitulation. The wreckers have not won. If we all (you know who you are) withdraw for a while, the wreckers have nothing to wreck. The cause of all the trouble becomes obvious. And at least we get a couple of weeks peace :-)

Who's with me?


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Apr 20 - 04:49 AM

" The wreckers have not won"
If ou do they have Dave - what they want is not to have what is happening discussed
All the subjects you mention can and should be discussed - it's up to those who care about them to make sure rationally - they are never going to be dalt with in friendly manner - that's the nature of pre-Brexit/Trump Britain and America
Stop discussing them and you fall behind what's happening daily
It's a choice for the individual, of course
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 26 Apr 20 - 05:15 AM

Jesus fucking wept! It’s like watching ‘Groundhog Day’, but without the comedy!

Discussion is fine, it’s what we come here for isn’t it? But insults and provocation, and reacting to insults and provocation are not discussion. When one individual posts insulting and provocative stuff - name calling, ‘Whataboutery’, comparing black, overweight Labour politicians to a hippopotamus, etcetera, etcetera, etcetera - the only worthwhile answer is to ignore the post. If you react, you lower yourself to the level of the person who insults and tries to provoke you - you’re not ‘dealing with the problem’, you’re becoming part of the problem.

When YKW starts his Insulting and provocative nonsense, for fuck’s sake do the intelligent thing, and ignore him. If you don’t react, if you don’t join in with his idiocy, guess what - you can’t legitimately be be blamed!

It’s easy - I’ve done it for some time now - and believe me, it’s truly liberating!


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 26 Apr 20 - 05:16 AM

Sorry, bastard HTML, Buggered the underlining, but the message is still clear.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Apr 20 - 06:37 AM

If we are ever are going to refer to him, let's use his name. I'm sick of stuff like "usual suspects" or "cabal" or "old men" that tends to put us into "is it I, Lord?" mode.   We are talking about IAINS. Yep, the less we mention him the better. But let's always use his name. Over and out...


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: peteglasgow
Date: 26 Apr 20 - 06:43 AM

dave - i was talking to my wife yesterday and telling her about the endless squabbles, arguments, accusations and trolling on here. 'why do you go on then?' tricky question. i think i have tried in various ways to have a friendly discussion about politics (i'm just reminded of a Father Ted episode that begins with Ted dreaming about having a learned theological discussion with a couple of other intelligent and amusing priests- then he wakes up and finds he's still with Jack and Dougal and Mrs Doyle) anyway - i would like to give your idea a go . Something keeps drawing me back to this car crash. but i will try....

but before i do i would like to know if someone was to open a thread in another poster's name would that constitute good reason to ban them from the site? or is this fraud acceptable on Mudcat? if so, why?


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 26 Apr 20 - 06:48 AM

Works - can’t be done, the BS section is closed to non-members, so posting as, for instance, ‘GUEST: Backwoodsman’ is impossible.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: peteglasgow
Date: 26 Apr 20 - 07:00 AM

well, steve - i reckon his name is probably Ian (and i'm sure it isn't Turnip to be fair) apart from when he is opening another thread in an assumed name.   but you are right. i'm away off for a bit now and it is because of Ian - not the other good people on here, like yourself.

i don't think we have ever managed to have a reasonable discussion on here about eg 'different directions on the left and how best to pursue more progressive politics' -it's not a lot to ask but it's been impossible. ian has bored and insulted his way through everything and has proven to have more energy than the rest of us. i've tried various tactics - including ignoring him as we all have - but we can't get rid of him and the mods clearly have no wish to. i wonder if it has anything to do with the fact that adverts have started to appear within the threads? in itself another reason to go - but where to?

sorry - i'm not doing a very good job of staying off this thread eh?


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: peteglasgow
Date: 26 Apr 20 - 07:06 AM

hi BWM -a thread appeared the other day in a name i used to have as Guest: petecockermouth.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 26 Apr 20 - 07:13 AM

Yes, I know, but it was ‘above the salt’ in the Music section, wasn’t it? GUEST: postings are permitted there, but not in BS.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 26 Apr 20 - 07:31 AM

PM sent, Pete.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Iains
Date: 26 Apr 20 - 07:51 AM

well, steve - i reckon his name is probably Ian (and i'm sure it isn't Turnip to be fair) apart from when he is opening another thread in an assumed name.   but you are right. i'm away off for a bit now and it is because of Ian - not the other good people on here, like yourself.    


If you are going to make accusations best you provide the eveidence as well. Otherweise what does that make you?


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Apr 20 - 08:13 AM

This gets to a stalemate
Evidence is supplied, ignored and demanded again - and so ad-infinitum
That we are losing people, some of them long term, is evidence enough
Let's move on in the hope the discussion gets more important than the chess game

Former chancellors Phillip Hammond yesterday demanded that the lock-down should to eased to help British business - today the Government announced it should be tightened radically - a conflict of two major interests is something Britain needs desperately - definitely not
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Apr 20 - 08:20 AM

My very favourite quote from Blazing Saddles was "Blow it out yo' ass, Howard." I'm thinking of adopting it but dropping the "Howard..."


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Iains
Date: 26 Apr 20 - 09:14 AM

Former chancellors Phillip Hammond yesterday demanded that the lock-down should to eased to help British business

Former MPs such as Hammond are in no position to demand anything. No one is going to take a blind bit of notice of a has been.

a conflict of two major interests is something Britain needs desperately - definitely not
A gnat against an elephant I would say, a minnow versus a whale.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 26 Apr 20 - 12:50 PM

”Former chancellors Phillip Hammond yesterday demanded that the lock-down should to eased to help British business - today the Government announced it should be tightened radically - a conflict of two major interests is something Britain needs desperately - definitely not “

Funny thing, that word ‘demand’. The BBC didn’t describe it as a ‘demand’, their choice of word was ‘urged’, which puts a different complexion on things, to my way of thinking. We are all free to ‘urge’ the government to take a course of action but, of course, the government is under no compunction to do as we ‘urge’.

Hammond’s time was over at the last GE - he can ‘urge’ or ‘demand’ until he’s blue in the face, but his opinion has no more weight than anyone else’s. And he’s quite simply wrong.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Iains
Date: 26 Apr 20 - 02:05 PM

Hammond's influence has waned dramatically since he and 20 other Torys MPs were sacked from the party for sabotaging the Government Brexit plans prior to the last election.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Apr 20 - 03:29 PM

I read the report - in the Times, I think
They gave the impressiion that Hammond was acting on behalf of somebody
The increase on the clampdown was on The BBC news - bringing them together was mine own work

Innt great to see the right tearing each other's throat's out = just the thing to see us through a crisis and at least it keeps the parasitic incompetents off our backs for a while
What next, I wonder another 'Night o the Long Knives' to rid the party of dissidents
IT WOULDN'T BE THE FIRST TIME

And doesn't it show how much more civilised and democratic Labour is in comparison?
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Apr 20 - 05:40 AM

It seems not all is as clear-cut as some would have us believe on the matter oe easing restrictions
Rabid Raab and his muppets have been planning for some now to do this in respone to pressure from big business
That it's still a goer in the present circumstances has elicited a statement from the Health boss that any attempts to do so will revers any improvement on the Covit 19 front   

Nice to hear some good news on the radio this morning
Thanks to the lock-down, the atmosphere is showing eigns of cleaning up and wild-life all over the planet is able to return to its natural habitat
The beach which was used for filming the Leonardo DiCaprio film in Maya Bay, off the coast of Thailand, which was closed because of over- tourism, is now full of basking sharks (probably on holiday from Westminster and Washington)
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: DMcG
Date: 27 Apr 20 - 05:55 AM

A second wave would be inevitable with the current levels of positive tests and without an extremely robust test and trace system in place. It should not be forgotten that every infection in every country started from a single infected person, or a very small number of infected people. So if you open up and there is a single person capable of infecting others you have a second wave on your hands unless you can detect, trace and isolate everyone who is a carrier. No amount of optimism gets round that. "Lock down" is an attempt to starve the virus out of existence, so opening before you have ensured that you can detect any reoccurrence even in asymptomatic carriers rapidly and effectively is extremely short sighted.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Iains
Date: 27 Apr 20 - 06:07 AM

With distinct uncertainty as to whether having been infected with covid-19 gives immunity relaxing lockdown will pruoduce a further wave of infection. Herd immunity would seem to be a myth. It raises questions as to the efficacy of lockdown and its relaxation. Those that are vulnerable will die if infected. This will remain true until such time as a cure is produced. The only function of lockdown would appear to be keeping infection tomanageable levels. But continued lockdown will destroy the economy and the food chain.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Apr 20 - 07:04 AM

Britain has been claiming it has been acting on the advice of "experts" - it they didn't mention that they were referring to financial experts
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: DMcG
Date: 27 Apr 20 - 07:32 AM

It is worth remembering, though it all seems a long time ago now, that Professor Mitford, the usual economist Brexiteers supporters referenced, was quite prepared for the farming market within the UK to go to the wall in what he saw as the wider interests.   All the relevant papers can be found on Economists for Free Trade; I did read many of them at the time but can't be othered to do so again at the moment.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Iains
Date: 27 Apr 20 - 07:35 AM

Experts only give guidance, government makes decisions.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Iains
Date: 27 Apr 20 - 07:42 AM

opposing views of experts


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: DMcG
Date: 27 Apr 20 - 07:58 AM

It is rarely difficult to find two experts of differing opinion, whatever the topic. At the minimum you need to consider how many experts side with one opinion or the other.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 27 Apr 20 - 08:10 AM

And when experts differ in opinion, there is nothing to say that the opinion of the majority of the experts is the correct one.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: DMcG
Date: 27 Apr 20 - 08:24 AM

so you don't go down the 17.4m we won get over it route, then Nigel?

I agree the majority view is not always right.

In science, when the minority has evidence of a high enough standard, it will win. Here we have no such evidence.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Apr 20 - 08:25 AM

"And when experts differ in opinion,"
Since this pandemic started this has not happened - the confusion has been deliberately created elsewhere - particular by politicians covering up their blunders
Typical confusion by Johnson has just been shown on the news by Johnson, who has stated quite clearly that the Crsis is at its highest point so far and there can me no question of there being a relaxation
His merry morons seem to be either sending out their own message or secretly plotting to follow the money-makers behind his back
What the **** is the public expected to do - read between the lines
It's fairly obvious to me that Party loyalty is streets ahead of general welfare in this Donkey Derby
Maybe it's time to leaver the experts to decide and cut out the self-interested middle-men
That can never be a question of sacrificing lives for economic interests - not ever
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Iains
Date: 27 Apr 20 - 08:51 AM

The science has yet to provide clear answers, hence the differing views.
Only hindsight will prove what path is the correct one.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 27 Apr 20 - 09:14 AM

so you don't go down the 17.4m we won get over it route, then Nigel?
I agree the majority view is not always right.


I have never claimed that the electorate were either scientists, or experts. The 17.4 million were, however, the majority of those who were both entitled to vote, and chose to do so.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: DMcG
Date: 27 Apr 20 - 09:23 AM

My comment was, obviously I hope, tongue in cheek, Nigel. However, there is a definite similarity between the experts in virus transmission and the voters in Brexit: each is/was drawing on their views and experience, and each is/was working on incomplete knowledge, and each is/was having to make predictions about an uncertain future.

But I could not resist your comment that the majority is not always right. Which is, of course, true. Especially when it comes to predicting the future,


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Apr 20 - 10:52 AM

Nice one - we leave it to the politicians and wait to count the dead to see who is right
Don't suppose there are many wo could live with that - literally
IT'S ALL HAPPENING NOW
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: DMcG
Date: 27 Apr 20 - 11:20 AM

I have been looking for what SAGE documents I can find. This the latest I have found so far (16th March)

This recommendation caught my eye (emphasis is mine)


4. It was agreed that a policy of alternating between periods of more and less strict social distancing measures could plausibly be effective at keeping the number of critical care cases within capacity. These would need to be in place for at least most of a year. Under such as policy, at least half of the year would be spent under the stricter social distancing measures.


I would say SAGE did not seem to think much of reopening quickly.
I accept there may be later reports that change this view.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Iains
Date: 27 Apr 20 - 11:34 AM

It is a trade off between collapsing the economy or swamping the NHS.
The only definite is that a given percentage of the most vulnerable will die if they become infected. What that mortality rate may be is as yet unquantified. Logically the route to follow is that those deemed most at risk suffer a more onerous lockdown by way of extensions than the younger and fitter.Stagnating vast parts of the normal NHS schedule also causes deaths. Transplant and cancer patients cannot wait for cancelled treatments. They also die. Some real life situations do not have a textbook of correct options to be followed, it is more a case of suck it and see.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: DMcG
Date: 27 Apr 20 - 12:07 PM

It is a trade off between collapsing the economy or swamping the NHS
That is a false dichotomy. If you choose to risk swamping the NHS that does not ensure the economy does not collapse. Indeed, many argue that a second wave caused by an early release when we were not properly prepared (with extensive testing and extensive tracing), would do exactly that.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Apr 20 - 12:55 PM

"It is a trade off between collapsing the economy or swamping the NHS"
That's it in a nutshell - money versus peoples health well-being and lives
When has it ever been any different ?
If the NHS was getting the support irt bneeded peopple wold be falling ill and dying at the rate they are
For all it's drawbacks, China has proved that hands down
It doesn't have such a problem because, despite having reintroducing Capitalism, it is under Government control rather than the opposite as in Britain and the US
It may have been the first to be hit by the virus, but it was the first to take it seriously, to show it the urgency required and to return to normal
The speed with witch that emergencyy hospital was up and running was a lesson for the world
China and Cuba were offering aid well before ther knockdowns were taking place
Meanwhile, back at Trump's ranch, the US were playing politics by rejecting "leftie" aid   
Now Johnson's jokers are faffing about tossing a coin to see whether business is more important than peoples lives, and his nodding dogs are shuffling into line to stand behind him   
This is also the case with the blame game - already it's the fault of disagreeing scientists insted of the string of fuck-ups already on record
Next stop - the last Labour Government
THIS from a scientist and surgeon with numerous Fellowships in Medicine and Medical science under his belt
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Apr 20 - 01:10 PM

Thuis morning started with an announcement that the Government is being forced to reconsider it's first come-first tested policy for the frozen emergency scheme,
Now the news that the cabinet are divided on whether the interests of the people people should be given priority over big business
Let's hope Scummings doesn't start frog-marching dissidents our again - that's all the UK needs
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Iains
Date: 27 Apr 20 - 01:57 PM

Dichotomy suggests lockdown and harm to the economy are unrelated. The longer the shutdown the more the economy suffers. The latter is dirctly related to the former, the commonality being time.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 27 Apr 20 - 02:11 PM

And of course Labour would not have made any mistakes at all, because they are much better qualified to interpret the scientific advice provided.....................not!!!!!!!!


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Apr 20 - 02:16 PM

meaningless bullshit
"And of course Labour would not have made any mistakes at all, "
As the Tories are operating a dictatorship and sacking everybody who doesn't agre with their leaders they are totally responsible for everything that happen
Labour, Lib DEms, Grreens, SNP - totally irrelevant
The only 'others' involved are those the bribed with bung - DUP
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Raggytash
Date: 27 Apr 20 - 02:40 PM

Just one salient point Jim, Johnson does not need the DUP backing.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Apr 20 - 02:41 PM

The row in teh cabinet now being described as "a split" indicates that lockdown and the economy most certainly are related
The perscon making this claim was saying they were and choices had to be made, five minures ago - not even singing from his own hymn-sheet

When all this is over, Parliament with enter into a several year battle on the details of leaving Europe
Considering the length of time and the bloodletting it took to get this far, not a happy state of affairs to a fractured country with a sup staring it in the face
Happy Days most certainly aren't Here Again
The system is broken beyond repair and needs replacing - the people cannot be asked to carry the can back for this mess
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Iains
Date: 27 Apr 20 - 02:57 PM

An 80 seat majority only comes across as a broken system to those that cannot accept the outcome of a truly democratic vote.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 27 Apr 20 - 02:58 PM

Bonzo, posters on this thread are at last trying to hold intelligent conversation, without trolling, flaming, or abuse. Even Iains is conducting himself with the appropriate level of decorum.

Please don’t spoil things by behaving like a big daft kid.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 27 Apr 20 - 03:02 PM

Iains appears to be confused on this one:
Dichotomy suggests lockdown and harm to the economy are unrelated. The longer the shutdown the more the economy suffers. The latter is dirctly related to the former,
Either they are related, or they are not. You can't argue it both ways in a single paragraph.

Jim is correct The row in teh cabinet now being described as "a split" indicates that lockdown and the economy most certainly are related although I don't see that the 'split' in the cabinet either proves or disproves it.

Lockdown is reducing the income of many people, meaning they have less to spend, and so the circulation effect of money reduces turnover and profits.
Many businesses are closed (temporarily at least) and are providing neither goods nor services. Neither are they generating profits for their owners, or taxes for the country.
The Government (using our money, or freshly 'created' money) is supporting both the above groups, being a cost to the country which will not see a matching benefit, apart from 1, keeping more people alive, 2, preventing an even more serious crash as those who are not working run out of funds.

For the three reasons above I agree with Jim that there is an inextricable link between the lockdown, and harm to the economy.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Apr 20 - 04:12 PM

An 80 seat majority only comes across as a broken system to those that cannot accept the outcome of a truly democratic vote."

Sorry, BWM, but this comment doesn't represent "decorum." I haven't seen anyone here who doesn't accept the election result. Not only that, there is a glaring non seq in the first eleven words. It's not debate, John. It's him.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 27 Apr 20 - 04:20 PM

So do like I did, and ignore it. Every time you react, he wins.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Iains
Date: 27 Apr 20 - 04:32 PM

It is a trade off between collapsing the economy or swamping the NHS
That is a false dichotomy.

The definition of dichotomy is a division or contrast between two things that are or are represented as being opposed or entirely different.
There is a sense implied that lockdown and harm to the economy are unrelated.
One directly impacts the other. In that sense they are directly related.
The only way to avoid swamping the NHS is by lockdown, this automatically contracts the economy.
Testing is much vaunted by the media hacks and Labour but is its importance overplayed? It gives a status at a particular moment in time.
It can distinguish between those infected, not infected, have been infected with a questionable degree of precision. The only truly accurate figures are for rates of hospitalisation. The only reasonably accurate data for planning purposes is the daily infection rate, but how much is based on testing and how much on hospitalisation? One set of experts are doom merchants, others call for easing up on segregation. I suspect Dominic Cummins can serve a vital role sorting through the chaf and determining a coherant way forward.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Apr 20 - 06:24 PM

Well, John, perhaps to confirm his alleged new level of decorum, you could ask who he means when he claims that there are those who don't accept the election result. I haven't seen anyone here predicating an argument on that basis, despite his provocative insinuation. Read that post again. The election result pissed me off hugely, but, along with everyone else I know, on Mudcat or not, I accept that result. Same old, same old. This leopard hasn't changed his spots. You just watch. And you didn't exactly ignore him when you praised his alleged decorum.

Let's not fall out, but let's not be complacent either.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Apr 20 - 08:47 PM

"I don't see that the 'split' in the cabinet either proves or disproves it."
If one section of the Government are saying the lock-down should be eased and another (led by Bad Boris says the oppose - you have a divided Government calling for National unity in the middle of a major crisis - not only split against each other but split in what they are demanding and how they are behaving themselves
A three-way split maybe ?
It has already been argued by Boris's acolytes here that the restrictions ned to be eased for the sake of Britain's economic future
I think you need to be handing out new hymn sheets among your team Nigel
In fairness to yourselves, it's a little difficult working out what your Government wants to do - this is Brexit all over again, but thus time with a feller with a scythe as referee

An 80 seat majority indicates an electorate who want's this whole thing to finish anf soon
Nobody can have such contempt for the Briish People as to believe that they want a clownish public school lout who pays for his sex with taxpayers money, treats women as sex-toys and regards other races as "watermelon smilers" and walking latterboxes
Britain hasn't slithered that far down the tubes, surely
You Hitler won a majority and weny on to massacre millions because of their religion, way of life ot mental and physical health
Stalin was adored by his people more than any leader was before or has been since
Majorities are won by those who control the sources of information and the media - it has never been for their skill and dedication
Our political system puts our leaders in ivory towers and answerable to nobody but those who fill their bank accounts
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Apr 20 - 09:05 PM

Gosh, sorry John, I've just spotted that your "decorum" post was made one minute after his and that you couldn't have known what he'd said. Sorry about that, but I'm sticking to my point about his blatant (though non-insulting for a refreshing change) Aunt Sally.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 27 Apr 20 - 10:53 PM

I repeat what I’ve said numerous times now - don’t feed the troll. He hangs out the bait in order to get a reaction, and every time you and others take the bait and start jerking around, he wins - he’s got exactly what he wants.

Y’know, I’ve reached a point where I don’t give a FF - I’ve made my decision, he’s dead to me. You dance to his tune if you wish. And good luck with that.

Over and out.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Apr 20 - 02:57 AM

Baccy
I've taken note of your point and to a degree I'm adhering to it
On the other hand, the contradictory manner in which he argues with himself by saying the opposite of what on the one hand, Nigel is saying and on the other what he himself has posted earlier is, in my opinion, well worth underlining

The British public are now getting mixed messages from a Government which is demanding that everybody has to pull together if this crisis is to be beaten
Johnson, obviously shaken shitless by his own personal experiences at the hands of the virus, is saying the restrictions can't be relaxed in any way (yesterday's broadcast was as near as I have ever come to his being a human being since he first became Lord Mayor of London).
His cabinet are at each other's throats - one lot follow Johnson about the lock-down, the other crowd are more concerned about their investments
The only thing they appear to agree on is that the rest of the country have to pull in the same direction (sez the mob who can't agree among themselves and have been making back-stabbing each other a Parliamentary blood-sport since Brexit hit the fan)
To follow their 'logic' you'd have to take a course on schizophrenia - they seem not to be able to agree which of them is Norman Bates and which, his mother

Which raises the question of how we deal with our own problem
On the one hand he puts up carefully gathered cut-'n-pastes, examples of why isolation must continue; on the other, he argues why, if it is not lifted, the Economy will go Walkabout and the country will crash and burn
In a way, our own Government ("right or wrong") spokesman is a microcosm of he Westminster Circus - he argues with himself from post to post, while saying the opposite to to what a fellow Tory is saying
An example of what's happening in real life which saves us from having to talk in abstract   
That's not responding to him, in my opinion - it's using his own inability to agree with himself to spotlight what's taking place among our glorious leaders
Let's use him while he's doing such a good job on our behalf !

We saw Johnson close up and aslive as he gets once - when he was a contender as London's Lord Mayor
Pat and I were waiting for a plane for Greece at Heathrow when, out of boredom, we went into Smith's rather good book department
Johnson was standing at the pay-desk jacket hanging open, belly hanging over his belt. shirt hanging out, fumbling for coins in his jacket pocket.. (he must have been using Dominic Scumming's personal tailor even then)
Pat and I were still grinning when we got off the plane in Northern Greece

I have to confess, that image stayed with us for a long time - it conjured up some bizarre images when we read about the sexual shenanigans with his bunga-bunga tax-money lady, Ms Arcuri
Imagined descriptions of how they performed together, coupled with the shirt-tail hanging out one, caused a great deal of amusement in our local bar - they admire British politicians no end over here - more-so since I-feel-Priti Patel suggesting blockading Ireland to make her surrender to Tory demands - if you don't laugh you have to cry, doncha?
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 28 Apr 20 - 03:08 AM

”On the other hand, the contradictory manner in which he argues with himself by saying the opposite of what on the one hand, Nigel is saying and on the other what he himself has posted earlier is, in my opinion, well worth underlining“

Your choice, Jim. I prefer to hold on to my self-respect, rather than allow myself to be jerked around by a worthless troublemaker. It’s playground nonsense..

Your choice.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: DMcG
Date: 28 Apr 20 - 03:10 AM

It is a trade off between collapsing the economy or swamping the NHS
That is a false dichotomy.
The definition of dichotomy is a division or contrast between two things that are or are represented as being opposed or entirely different.

There is a sense implied that lockdown and harm to the economy are unrelated.


I was using it in the sense of opposed, not unrelated, so there is no such implication. But there is no point in getting hung up an precisely what a word means. if you don't like that word, I can live with it.

What matters is that most people, including the Prime Minister, think we need to continue the lockdown for some time to come. When this started, I thought there might be some relaxation at the end of May. Not much, just some. That still seems possible to me.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: DMcG
Date: 28 Apr 20 - 03:17 AM

By the way, the reason I thought end of May was because of this 'review after three weeks' suggestion. I thought after one set of three, people would accept a further period, after two they would be some grumbling, and after three lots of three weeks the grumbling would be loud enough in some quarters that a slight relaxation of the lockdown became likely. So nothing to do with scientific justification, but largely based on my impression of how some people will react to being locked down. And interesting had it been a 4 week period or a five week period, I think it would still be the third review that would be a problem: it is the reviews not the length that determines the dates.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Apr 20 - 03:53 AM

"Your choice, Jim."
Sorry Baccy - you're not responding to my points
He's not going to go away and the mods aren't going to do anything about his behaviour
Rather than allow him to be a Lord Haw Haw, I can see no reason why we shouldn't why we shouldn't hoist him on his own petard - I can't for the life see how that is lacking in self respect - I put a great deal of effort in my mis-spent youth defacing National Front posters with my own messages
As you say, my choice
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Iains
Date: 28 Apr 20 - 04:48 AM

What matters is that most people, including the Prime Minister, think we need to continue the lockdown for some time to come. When this started, I thought there might be some relaxation at the end of May. Not much, just some. That still seems possible to me.
If you look at the curves of new cases and deaths on the worldometer website you will see the UK is atypical in that there is no pronounced peak and decay, unlike Italy where peak occurred just after mid March.
The UK is flatlining/slowly decaying this complicates the timing for easing restrictions. As there is no clearly defined decrease there is no obvious end point on which to base timings for relaxation measures. How much this is skewed by London being the largest transport hub in Europe is hard to say but it must have some impact.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: DMcG
Date: 28 Apr 20 - 04:57 AM

To repeat my post of 28 Apr 20 - 03:17 AM: I think it unlikely that the science will support any relaxation at the end of May - that will be driven by politics, not science, if it happens.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 Apr 20 - 06:25 AM

A bit harsh on Doug there, John, I thought...

As you say, our choice. But picking on contradictions in arguments or calling out his straw men, as I did, isn't attacking the man. You can do that and stay high. The way we comment on the absurdities might be the mistake we've commonly made. I avoid the more ludicrous stuff completely, such as links to his eejit blogger-boss. We're all different and it doesn't do to keep on at us if we engage occasionally and carefully and recognise when bait is being a-dangled. If we get down and dirty it's a different matter. Then you can bollock us!


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Apr 20 - 07:22 AM

I think the twin problems of the virus and Iains ("Go together like a horse and carriage" as the song says) is having the effect of getting to us on occasion
We must keep repeating "Every day and in every way I'm getting better and better" - that's what they told us in school anyway ad look at the good it did Liverpool; two world class football teams, The friggin' Beatles and The Mersey Tunnel "Who coud ask for anything more" (as the other song says
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 Apr 20 - 07:26 AM

Nowt wrong with the Fab Four, Jim, and by the two world-class teams I'm sure you mean that in the Shankly (aka God) sense of Liverpool and Liverpool reserves...


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: An Buachaill Caol Dubh
Date: 28 Apr 20 - 08:35 AM

Re. Trump's remarkable ideas,

"Now, Briany O'Linn kept an eye on the White House
Where President Trump sits and tweets in this bright house;
"With a shot of Jeyes Fluid," our hero would grin,
"I'll tend to me health..." Obit. Brian O'Linn.

If anyone can think of a better, more inevitable-seeming rhyme for "Whitehouse", he's welcome to the variant. I accept that I can be wrong, and even irresponsible. Gladly.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Apr 20 - 08:48 AM

That's well worth working on
Buac

On Anti Vienam marches we used to sing

Johnson's in the White House
We Don't think that's the right house
It should be called (the (the prudish sang 'Powder Room', the Scousers, 'shite house'
So take the man away
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Apr 20 - 01:09 PM

Just been announced that the UK is set to have the highest number of virus casualties/deaths in Europe - deaths hve more than doublesd in the last seven days
Surely this will end the calls to ease the lock-down - fingers crossed?
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 Apr 20 - 01:39 PM

To be accurate, Jim, the doubling refers to deaths in care homes, a fair proportion of which won't be Coronavirus deaths. Still a major setback, of course.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: DMcG
Date: 28 Apr 20 - 01:40 PM

Surely this will end the calls to ease the lock-down - fingers crossed?

I would like to think so, but I fear if, as slackening lockdown is being discussed and implemented in varying degrees in Germany, Italy, France and Spain and others there will be some - and I am not referring to people on this thread - who would see it as an insult to our National Pride if several countries in the EU 'got going before us'.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Raggytash
Date: 28 Apr 20 - 02:19 PM

Surely any "lessening" of the restrictions need to take into account numerous factors. Is there PPE for the entire population, the answer to that is no. We do not enough to cater for the needs of front-line staff.
Is the "lessening" of restrictions to allow essential work to be carried out. What is essential is debateable.

Is a "lessening" to allow people to go to the pub (and I speak as a regular pub goer) no way!


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 Apr 20 - 02:32 PM

Drink wine, Raggytash. You have to adapt. My great grandad, a Salford man, always gave up beer for Lent. He drank wine instead. That's the way to do it...


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 28 Apr 20 - 02:46 PM

Tea’s just as good, and no headache in the morning...


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Raggytash
Date: 28 Apr 20 - 03:00 PM

Backwoodsman, There is a secret to not getting hangovers.

The secret is to stay drunk.


Steve, I too have kept off the beer for lent, not the wine though. Aldi have some very passable Toro Loco Merlot at 7 Euro a bottle and some very passable Baron Armarillo Rioja again at 7 Euro a bottle.

I'm thinking of having an extension built to store the empties!


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 28 Apr 20 - 03:02 PM

I've been enjoying a cup of Tetley tea at 4pm with a slice of sourdough bread, butter and jam, to keep the worms from biting up to 5.30 when I stop work for the day!


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Apr 20 - 03:04 PM

" the doubling refers to deaths in care homes,"
I think you may be right Steve - being the worst in Europe is the clicher for me
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 28 Apr 20 - 03:10 PM

Raggy, sadly those days are long gone for me. So I just put a brave face on it, and keep suppin’ the Yorkshire Tea - the Rolls Royce of teas!


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Iains
Date: 28 Apr 20 - 03:25 PM

The worst in Europe is actually Belgium. But like many comparisons it is not like for like. Tha partially explains low figures for Germny and high figures for Belgium.
belgium has 633 deaths per million, Germany 74. Spain 510, Italy 453,
France 367, UK 319


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 Apr 20 - 03:51 PM

Well if only we knew how many have had Coronavirus and how many have died of it. Which we don't. Comparing countries is an invidious exercise.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Iains
Date: 28 Apr 20 - 04:13 PM

Invideous? I do not think so. Neither does Worldometer, a provider of global COVID-19 statistics for many caring people around the world. Their data is also trusted and used by the UK Government, Johns Hopkins CSSE, the Government of Thailand, the Government of Pakistan, Financial Times, The New York Times, Business Insider, BBC, and many others.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Iains
Date: 28 Apr 20 - 04:17 PM

https://gulfnews.com/world/europe/why-the-worlds-highest-covid-19-death-rate-is-in-europes-capital-1.71195913


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: DMcG
Date: 28 Apr 20 - 04:20 PM

As always, there are many way to think of such things, but if you look at the Government's slide for Global Deaths, and look at the latest shown "UK (all settings)" figures, then the UK is worse than any other country at that stage except the US, and by a considerable margin. Note also that the France figures, as mentioned in the explanation, include all care homes.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: DMcG
Date: 28 Apr 20 - 04:23 PM

Just read that link, Iains. The subtitle points out "Brussels counts deaths at nursing homes even if there wasn’t a confirmed infection".


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 28 Apr 20 - 05:11 PM

As I did to my limited following weeks ago, today the Scottish government added wearing a mask at supermarkets, etc., to social distancing and stay-at-home measures.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 Apr 20 - 05:30 PM

The bottom line is that different European (and other) countries are in different stages of preparedness, in different stages of testing, in different stages of knowing who has and who hasn't had the virus, and who all have their different ways of collecting their statistics. The care home issue is a shining example of inconsistencies among different countries. There is no point to be made by trying to use numbers to compare countries. A starting point would be to count the excess of deaths over the seasonal average over a number of years, then to strip away confounding factors, then to analyse every single death in relation to whether it was a Coronavirus death or not. Then we're talking. All else is bullshit.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Iains
Date: 28 Apr 20 - 06:23 PM

DMcG If there is no way to directly compare data sets from one country with another it follows that claims this country is worse than that country are meaningless. Apples do not compare with oranges. Even crude death rates cannot compare as cause of death is recorded by way of different criteria from one country to another. The inaccuracy of data compilation both within countries and between countries has been a major stumbling block for forward planning throughout this crisis. This has been highlighted frequently. The difference between German and Belgian compilations of cause of death certificates is very much an apples and oranges comparison. Whatever metric is chosen for comparison it is flawed. This has always been a given from day one. Even when the dust has settled direct   comparisons between countries will be impossible because there is no standardisation of data compilation. Total numbers of fatalities may well be accurate. Cause of death most assuredly will not be, as most will have at least one comorbidity.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: An Buachaill Caol Dubh
Date: 28 Apr 20 - 07:24 PM

With regard to the measures taken in different places, as far as I understand things New Zealand has been fortunate.
I'm getting my mask.   #{:^[]


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: DMcG
Date: 29 Apr 20 - 01:06 AM

Iains, I think you are perhaps missing that this is one of the graphs that the Government shows us every day, and that it is presented by one of the scientists in attendance. It standards to reason, then, that for all its limitations they consider it one of the better ways the data can be presented.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Apr 20 - 03:23 AM

Isn't it odd
Thde BBC News headlines the situation of deaths as they stand at the time (Ist item) and 'Along Comes Jones' to tell you what the real facts are within hours
Someone really does have a hot-line to God
In this crisis - everybody but everybody hads to rely on the main news outlets - the BBC, for all its weaknesses and class predilections, being the main one
If people had behaved like some do doring wartime we'd all be wearing uniforms and flinging our right arms in the air
This is divisive - Trump invented 'Fake News' to cover is idiocy and inept leadership and made it a one man White House cottage industry
Some of it seems to made it across the pond
It's one thing to discuss how the crisis is bein handled (essential, in fact)
It's quite another to dispute official announcements and undermine experts because theuy don't suit certain individual tastes
Best to pretend there's a war on and bit lips eh - you can blame the last Labour Government when this is all over - there's a good lad
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Iains
Date: 29 Apr 20 - 04:00 AM

DMcG The only point I make is that the data is inevitably flawed. But if it is the best you have and is 80% accurate that is all you can use for planning purposes. It is not a blame game, it is the reality.

https://www.usnews.com/news/world-report/articles/2020-04-06/the-flaws-in-coronavirus-case-reporting-data

https://cmmid.github.io/topics/covid19/forecasts-and-projections.html

https://blog.protiviti.com/2020/04/28/covid-19-crisis-exposes-flaws-in-master-data-sets/


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Apr 20 - 04:14 AM

During the war the BBC news was happily being contradicted nightly by Lord Haw-Haw - the Yanks has Tokyo Rose
We'll have to think of a name for ours
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Iains
Date: 29 Apr 20 - 04:21 AM

Interesting that the recent Panorama program was crewed by a bunch of Labour activists. This is a direct breach of BBC guidlines where such bias should be notified to the prospectiveaudience.
"”Appropriate information about their affiliations, funding and particular viewpoints should be made available to the audience, when relevant to the context.”

Another nail in the BBC coffin.

Full details in the link
Health Secretary slams Panorama


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: DMcG
Date: 29 Apr 20 - 04:48 AM

I partially agree with your 29 Apr 20 - 04:00 AM post Iains, and it is where I differ from Steve: yes, we would love to have the well-defined data so we can accurately cross-compare one country with another reliably: nothing could be better. And, retrospectively it might be possible to do that, though I doubt it because I suspect we are not collecting the additional information we would need to resolve the data sets. Had we stayed in the EU no doubt we could try to agree some reporting standards to apply to future pandemics as one of the 'lessons learned'. But we are in the position where we have to make the best use of the flawed data we have. We would rather not be, but needs must.

But this is where I part company with Iains's post: if we are accepting the data that is '80%' that is what we have to do. We cannot accept bits we like and ignore bits we don't like. So if COBRA is accepting that graph as 'the broad picture' as the COBR in the corner would suggest it is, then the broad picture also says the UK(all settings) is appreciably worse than other countries excluding the US.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Apr 20 - 05:04 AM

Expert - BBC ----- who should we rely on Dominic Scumbag ?
This is delibarate sabotage from 'Fake News Freddie' maybe
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Apr 20 - 05:39 AM

It is a blatant lie - a piece of right-wing propaganda in fact. to suggest that where any major contradictions in the advice from the real experts - it it wwere true it would be emblazoned ovr every headline in Britain
This is what the Stewart' called "a makkie-up"
There may be differences of opinion on nuances, but overall, there is total and clearly stated agreement on the best way to proceed

On the other hand, half Britain's leaders are saying it is necessary to continue and possibly intensify lock-down (including a "one-bitten' Johnson, while the other half are demanding an easing of restrictions for the sake of big-business
That someone should continue to use this crisis as a photo-opportunity for anti-Labour propaganda is beyond belief and puts all his arguments where thay have always belonged - in the political gutter
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Rain Dog
Date: 29 Apr 20 - 05:53 AM

"On the other hand, half Britain's leaders are saying it is necessary to continue and possibly intensify lock-down (including a "one-bitten' Johnson, while the other half are demanding an easing of restrictions for the sake of big-business"

Not just for the sake of big business.

There is going to be huge financial cost for the taxpayers and a number of future governments here in the UK. The present government has spent/is going to spend huge amounts of money in trying to deal with this situation.

Not everyone is in the fortunate position of no longer having to need to work. There does need to be a managed return to work at some point, probably sooner rather than later. No doubt it will be a gradual return while also keeping an eye on the number of new cases of the virus.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Apr 20 - 05:58 AM

Same Day reporting
MESSAGE ONE
MESSAGE TWO
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: DMcG
Date: 29 Apr 20 - 06:07 AM

Not everyone is in the fortunate position of no longer having to need to work

To be honest, we don't know how may such people there will be. In normal circumstances stopping the 'triple-lock' on pensions is such a vote loser no one considers it seriously, but something like the effects of this virus could get both sides of the house to agree it is should go. Then many pension funds are based on the stock market, so the value of pensions involved could drop significantly. If there is a forced devaluation it could eat up savings...

There may be quite a few pensioners forced back to work. We can't be sure.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Apr 20 - 06:20 AM

You can differ as much as you like, but useful comparisons between countries can be made only if broadly similar methods of amassing those numbers are used in each country. The issues involved are not minor. Care home deaths and deaths not in hospital have not been included here. "Deaths involving coronavirus" in this country are logged on the say-so of a doctor who has usually not got a test result to go from. On top of that, a Coronavirus death may reach the figures tomorrow morning, in five weeks' time or something in between. Now convince me that the countries you wish to compare us with are doing similar, or at least that you have a way of stripping away the inconsistencies between one country and another that muddle the results. Looking at our own numbers is useful in that they inform future strategy. Comparing countries may be done for political purposes (the brexiteers are sniffing around, for example), so you'd better have good numbers at the outset. Which we haven't got as things stand.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Apr 20 - 07:18 AM

"Well he did advocate an earlier lockdown, as did you."
He also recommended that weaker members of society be given lower priority - a crisis used for euthanasia
Trolling is right
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 29 Apr 20 - 07:19 AM

You can differ as much as you like, but useful comparisons between countries can be made only if broadly similar methods of amassing those numbers are used in each country

I fully agree, and you have already said this several times. But you always appear to direct the comment at Iains. The idea of comparisons was introduced onto this discussion by someone else.

From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Apr 20 - 01:09 PM

Just been announced that the UK is set to have the highest number of virus casualties/deaths in Europe - deaths hve more than doublesd in the last seven days
Surely this will end the calls to ease the lock-down - fingers crossed?
Jim


Any comparisons since that point have been comments on that claim (or on the subsequent counter-claims).


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 29 Apr 20 - 07:24 AM

I see this morning that the Prime Minister’s partner has given birth to a baby boy, and that mother and baby are doing well.

I’d like to congratulate Mr. Johnson and Miss Symonds on the birth of their child, and say what a very pleasant change it makes to see him publicly acknowledging the arrival of his latest Illegitimate child.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: DMcG
Date: 29 Apr 20 - 07:25 AM

for what it is worth, Nigel, I read Steve's comment as a direct response to the comment I made in which I named him. I did not see it as directed at anyone else.

And I am quite content for it to be directed at me.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Apr 20 - 08:16 AM

"latest Illegitimate child."
Miaow :-)
Goood to see it more important that the coronavirus figures though - always did have his priorities right, our Boris
Good job they don't acknowledge all of them - we'd have to buy The Sun for the rest of the news
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 29 Apr 20 - 08:20 AM

Sorry Jim, I allowed my halo to slip, and dropped into ‘Magic Grandad’ and ‘Abbopotamus’ mode. Nice to get one’s own back occasionally.

Normal service now resumed.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Raggytash
Date: 29 Apr 20 - 09:03 AM

Once again there is no analysis or context in the guido "report".

Reporting such lines as "according to two people involved" … were they the cleaners or the people who brought the coffees in!

Quoting Bloomberg sage sources …….. what sources, how does a right wing American news channel have sources suddenly elevated to be the font of all wisdom.

Is anyone silly enough to believe such "reporting". Really?.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: DMcG
Date: 29 Apr 20 - 12:23 PM

Every day for a while the Government has been telling us the five tests before easing of the lockdown.

Up until yesterday, the fifth test was

"no chance of a second wave"

Today it has been changed to

"no chance of a second that would overwhelm the NHS"

Fans of Animal Farm, please note!


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Rain Dog
Date: 29 Apr 20 - 12:30 PM

2 legs 4 legs

No chance of a second wave?

Not sure how anyone could safely say that there is going to be no chance of a second wave.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: DMcG
Date: 29 Apr 20 - 12:39 PM

I agree that the original of 'no chance of a second wave' was unrealistic, though they should have known that from the beginning. However the formulation they have gone for is both the earliest possible release and the highest risk option.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: DMcG
Date: 29 Apr 20 - 01:18 PM

and of course since the first wave did not overwhelm the NHS, a second wave the same size would be acceptable within those tests.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: An Buachaill Caol Dubh
Date: 29 Apr 20 - 01:35 PM

At least there should be plenty of time to obtain, distribute and store sufficient PPE.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Iains
Date: 29 Apr 20 - 02:15 PM

In other news today Arron Banks and Liz Bilney, the CEO of Leave.EU, follow in the footsteps of Darren Grimes by winning in the High Court against the Electoral Commission. Today the Electoral Commission agreed terms of settlement over the Electoral Commission’s announcement in November 2018 of its referral of Banks and Bilney to the National Crime Agency for further investigation.
This is the third Court case on the EU referendum and joins
-We send £350 million a week to the NHS - TRUE
-Darren Grimes did not break the law - TRUE
-Arron Banks did not break the law - TRUE

I wonder how much taxpayers money was squanndered pursuing these frivolous claims?


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Apr 20 - 03:18 PM

"In a statement released on Friday, the Met concluded there was insufficient evidence to justify further investigation of the group, which was set up by the insurance businessman Arron Banks.

“It is clear that whilst some technical breaches of electoral law were committed by Leave.EU in respect of the spending return submitted for their campaign, there is insufficient evidence to justify any further criminal investigation,” the statement said.

It added that Leave.EU’s responsible person for legal purposes, Liz Bilney, a business associate of Banks, would also face no further police action.

The investigation was launched after the Electoral Commission concluded in May 2018 that the group had committed multiple breaches of electoral spending law during the EU referendum and fined it £70,000.

The breaches included exceeding the legal spending cap by at least 10% and delivering incorrect spending and transactions records."
Metripoliton Police statement

Frivolous my arse

Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Iains
Date: 29 Apr 20 - 04:00 PM

24 September 2019 • 9:31am

Pro-Brexit campaigner Arron Banks has threatened to sue the Electoral Commission after he was cleared of any criminality over £8 million in EU referendum campaign funding.

In a statement, the National Crime Agency (NCA) said it had found no evidence that any criminal offences had been committed after the Electoral Commission referred what it described as multiple breaches of electoral spending law for investigation.

The NCA said it would therefore take no further action against Mr Banks, Leave.EU chief executive Liz Bilney or associated organisations.

Note the date!
The court case I referred to was 29April 2020
Mr Banks 1, Electoral Commission nil.
Not unfounded allegations but case proven in favour of Mr Banks in the High Court of Justice Queen's Bench Division.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Raggytash
Date: 29 Apr 20 - 04:06 PM

The latest development is that inquests into the deaths of health care workers who fall victim of coronavirus have been instructed NOT to look at the issue of lack of PPE.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: DMcG
Date: 30 Apr 20 - 04:07 AM

Coronavirus: New antibody test ‘with 99 per cent accuracy’ approved for use across Europe

This is good news, especially for the researchers. The sample size mentioned in the article sounds a little low to be confident of that 99% accuracy, but I am sure those who approved it have looked into it more thoroughly than I can.

There is a paragraph "Dr Clarke added the test was useful to authorities because it showed “how the virus has moved through the population” but added “for the general public it of no immediate utility.” I would echo that on what we know so far, because most people do not understand the relationship between test accuracy and the number of false results it gives. We do not know how widespread the virus is in the population, but if 5% of the population have it, a back of the envelope calculation would be that the test gives an incorrect result about 19% of the time. As we don't really know what the percentage of infection is, I have made an estimate based on the number of tests and the number of those that tested positive, but it is very rough and ready, because most asymptomatic people would not get tested, meaning the actual percentage who have had the virus could be a lot higher.

If we were getting the 20% false results, those medics involved in serious testing will understand that and treat it accordingly, but I am far from convinced the general public will.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Apr 20 - 04:15 AM

"Pro-Brexit campaigner Arron Banks has threatened to sue the Electoral Commission "
You'd think he was rich enough with his Brexit scam - people like that don't do anything from dedication or altruism

Some time ago we, who disapproved of the policies and actions of the right (including the British Tories) were accused of being 'Anglophobes'
The first time I became aware of the accuser's own opinion of Britain big time was when he attacked the British Courts for jailing Tommy Robinson for interfering with a British trial, he spent several postings publicising the then circulation of an on-line petition to "Free Tommy Robinson" - it was being circulated by Robinson's own organisation, a spin-off from the defunct National Front
So our 'Anglophobe' accuser appears to have an intense dislike of The British Justice System and its administrators

His contempt for The British Press is ongoing as he chooses to dismiss it in favour of a right-wing blogger with a criminal record who has a history of support for The National Front
So our souce of British information runs a poor second to a criminal blogger
The British Broadcasting Corporation has come under regular attack for broadcasting 'Fake News' - again, he prefers the criminal blogger
No time for Britisdh 'free speech' then

When the police arrested Tommy Robinson again for assaulting an innocent bystander at a swimming pool for no reason other than being there, they were accused by our defender of British honour as being biased and allowing a non-existent pedophile to go free (no evidence of peadofilia has ever emerged

Now the British police have come under attack again, this time for prosecuting someone who has fairly obviously breached the laws regarding the Brexit referendum - he has obviously done wrong but has covered his tracks well enough to hide the evidence
Had it been a Remain supporter in the case, there is little doubt that our 'Anglofile' would be carrying a rope and looking for the nearest tree
So our British Bobbies are both time and public money wasters and supporters of peadofilia
Oor British forces of Law and order are crap, it seems

When the Brexit fight got serious, our hero was insisting that those who were opposing the fight to leave were "traitors" and should be thrown out of Parliament - little respect for British Democracy there - it appears

Now he is gloating over the fact that our Brexit scam-artist is to sue Britain for interfering with his business interests - at a time when Britain is entering for an economic depression, thanks to a world-wide pandemic
Wonder what place the future of the British people during inevitable hard times rates on his like-dislike scale - not high, obviously - the making wealthier of someone with far too much already is far more important

It is difficult to see what exactly this Anglofile actually likes about Britain - not very much as far as I can see
Any suggestions ?
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Iains
Date: 30 Apr 20 - 05:05 AM

The electoral commplaints Authority is supposed to have evidence before attempting a prosecuuution. Obviously they had none. Therefore the futile exercise was a waste of public money. They should all resign.

Now the British police have come under attack again, this time for prosecuting someone who has fairly obviously breached the laws regarding the Brexit referendum - he has obviously done wrong but has covered his tracks well enough to hide the evidence
The police do not prosecte and the rest of your accusation is simply defamaion. I hope you have deep pockets! r


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Apr 20 - 05:53 AM

"They should all resign.
"
Maybe the whole Government should resign and make room for your mate Tommy
Waddya think ?
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Apr 20 - 07:00 AM

"I hope you have deep pockets!"
Look forward to the extradition papers - bring it on
I think this confirms that you hate Britain far more than those you accuse of doing so
Great start to the day, I'd have thought
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Iains
Date: 30 Apr 20 - 08:04 AM

Look forward to the extradition papers - bring it on
Not near as much as I.



https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/a-click-from-the-courts-online-libel-never-easier-1.1252882


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Apr 20 - 08:15 AM

Won't hold my breath - wind and pee, like the barber's cat
You know as well as I that this scumbag is a con-man and would not dare prod this sleeping giant
The fact that you defend him at a time when the British People are locked down fearing for their lives and worrying whether thay will have jobs puts you in his brackeT Patriotism - little Brit style writ large, I would say

A medical expert has saidd that the lock-down cannot be eased until (at the very least) The Government has a long-term plan for testing
At present they have no plan for tomorrow - only acute shortages of equipment
It's gonna be a long - long summer
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Iains
Date: 30 Apr 20 - 08:47 AM

Keep digging! You may think you have immunity.Defamation is defamation and actionable.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Iains
Date: 30 Apr 20 - 10:05 AM

80% of employees in the hospitality sector may have been furloughed. For arts and entertainment, it is at 67%, whilst construction and manufacturing come in at 40% and 29% respectively.
Only one local authority district in the country – Oxford – sees less than one in five employees furloughed, and even there the level is 19%. The overall rate of furloughing, across the country, is 27%.
British Airways will make 12,000 staff redundant despite the availability of an 80% wage subsidy.
This all suggests things will not be what they used to be at the end of lockdown.
Was the great depression but a walk in the park?


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: DMcG
Date: 30 Apr 20 - 10:34 AM

For arts and entertainment, it is at 67%

This is the only one of the sectors mentioned that I have any sort of connection with. I can tell you that Northern Ballet has furloughed all its dancers, orchestra and at least some of the permanent technical staff and is topping up the additional 20% of salary. There are other ancillary staff they have not mentioned in the newsletter I get, but I imagine many of them are not so fortunate. How long they can continue to pay that 20% has to be open to question.

Conversely, a lot of people in the arts are on short term contracts, to cover one particular film, show or whatever. All of the people I am in touch with in that position have had the contract terminated.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Apr 20 - 01:07 PM

Johnson says that thee crisis has passed its peak but there will not be an easing of the lock-down
British Airways has suggested that it is considering abandoning Heathrow in future   
Ji,


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Apr 20 - 06:18 PM

Gatwick, Jim, not Heathrow. BA is a very profitable company which is behaving disgracefully.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 01 May 20 - 01:56 AM

They should do it. We have a large airport not far from here, with A1, M1, and East Coast Main Line links, a huge runway (ex-Vulcan base), modern facilities, plenty of room for expansion, and currently very much under-used.

Contrary to the delusion most politicians and fackin’ satherners seem suffer from, the world doesn’t end beyond the M25.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 May 20 - 03:55 AM

"Heathrow"
I only heard it in passing, but I could have sworn Heathrow was mentioned ans being adversely effected - might have overdone the poitín
One of our regular posters wrote to me once boiling with anger about the new runway which was likely to lose him his home
I dropped him a line and am awaiting a reply
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Rain Dog
Date: 01 May 20 - 04:28 AM

Contrary to the delusion most politicians and fackin’ satherners seem suffer from, the world doesn’t end beyond the M25.

M25? That is well in the north for some of us.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 May 20 - 04:32 AM

Just had conirmation that something is happening with Heathrow, though my mate says it is "posturing" on the part of BA

" the world doesn’t end beyond the M25."
'Course it doesn't it ends at the Naas Road - according to Dublin
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 May 20 - 04:47 AM

There was a young lady called Dinah
With a music box in her vagina
The boys they had larks
To the sweet sound of Bach's
Toccata and fugue in D minor


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 May 20 - 04:48 AM

Oops, me context has disappeared! :-(


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 May 20 - 04:50 AM

No it hasn't: I put this in the wrong thread. It should have gone in the Congratulations one. Think I'll go back to bed and get up again...


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 May 20 - 06:21 AM

Hey Barb'ry, would you be kind enough to remove this and my previous three posts? I'm in the wrong thread don't y'know! Sorry...


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 May 20 - 07:07 AM

What have I told you about drinking late Steve ?

Despite expert advice to the contrary and his own promised recently, Johnson has said that they will hold a cabinet meeting necxt week in order to get the lock-down ended as soon as possible for the sake of the British Economy
Priorities always were to the forefront in Tory policy, weren't they
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Rain Dog
Date: 01 May 20 - 07:25 AM

From the BBC

"The government will release a series of papers next week outlining its approach on how to safely and gradually restart the economy.
It invited submissions by Thursday from businesses, trade bodies, unions and other workers representatives on how best to slowly restart the UK economy.
It's thought the proposals will not be split bluntly by sector but by working environment.
But there is no confirmed date yet for when such a restart will occur."

How the government plans to get the UK back to work


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 May 20 - 07:33 AM

I see no medical ad advisors on that list RD
Possibly in line with the article in this morning's Times which says that "Politicians must have the final say" and there is nothing wrong with unelected non-experts like Scumminigs being a part of these decisions
One of the impressions his public appearances have left me with is that he isn't exactly a fastidious individual and doesn't put personal hygene on his list of 'must-dos'
I wonder if the attendees will ask for protective clothing - just a thought
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 01 May 20 - 07:50 AM

200


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 May 20 - 08:23 AM

It's at times like this you reliase th importance to changing the electoral system to one that allows a voice to the parties that put the interests of people higher than that of the rich and powerful
To a degree, Ireland's PR system puts a brake on the right-wing parties by forcing them to justify themselves in the Dail - not the case in Britain
There it is a bear garden where opposition is shouted down and Parliamentarians behave like hooligan children regularly
Money matters should play no part in decisions of life and death such as when the lock-down should be relaxes - it is arrogant nonsense to suggest they should
This has to be a decision taken on scientific advice only
It is diversive crap to suggest that science is divided on this - it ****** isn't - the lockdown should be eased only when it is safe for it to be no matter what the economic consequences

It is true that the present economic structure may collapse - that structure began to do so with the widening wealth gap and the turning of plumbers, carpenters and electricians..... - all those who make our society's wheels revolve by providing the needs of everyday living, into "workers" forced into unsuitable jobs because their old ones are no longer profitable
Unfortunately, we don't live in a society that allows open debate on questions like this so we have to rely on good-will and the crumbs from the tables of others
Things cannot and will not return to where they were- they will eiher worsen or be changed out od necessity
Maybe this is a wake-up call

Happy Birthday Baccie - you don't look a day over 199
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Rain Dog
Date: 01 May 20 - 09:38 AM

I kinda get the feeling that you were not so keen on PR when UKIP were doing better in the polls Jim.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: DMcG
Date: 01 May 20 - 09:42 AM

I can't speak for Jim, but I always accepted that having UKIP, the BNP or whoever as part of the representation was the price you would have to pay for a proportional system. Even so, I support a proportional system.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Rain Dog
Date: 01 May 20 - 09:47 AM

I too think PR would be better BUT it would need politicians and political parties to change their attitudes. I don't see that happening too soon.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 May 20 - 10:06 AM

Not the parties Rain Dog - parliament as a whole
It is significant that, when the Newly formed Six Counties in Norther Irland began to flex their muscles in order to build a sectarina state, one of the first things they did was to abolish PR; First past the post = political dominnce over co-operation every time
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 May 20 - 08:47 AM

From the news today it seems that the business crown have wone the argument and economics does take priority over general well-being
A bit of "we won't relax till we know it's safe to do so" lip-service but a cabinet meeting of how to proceed early next week seems to suggest either that that is not the intention ot the arse doesn't know what the elbow is doing - either is possible
We'll see
It's far too early to relax in the U.K. - even Boris the Brainless knows that

The ail has now put forward a staged plan for returning to normal - the news-item said the UK is nowhere near in a position to do that
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 May 20 - 01:15 PM

HOW ITHERS SEE HIM
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 May 20 - 02:14 PM

It takes a special level of ignorance not to be able to tell the difference between Humanity, Intelligence AND EDUCATION
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 May 20 - 02:39 PM

https://www.livemint.com/Politics/2XisSUc2zugK1AkPagHgEN/Joseph-Stalin-is-greatest-individual-of-all-time-according.html


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 May 20 - 03:23 AM

GREAT LEADER WITH A LORRA - LORRA SUPPORT
You pair have opted for insulting and populism rather than caring about the people who ahre sufferineg and dyind due to this crisis - populism rules Ok

Stalin was the second most popular leader in history, pipped at the post by Attila the Hun
Hitler was a close runner up
Mosely filled the streets of London with his thuggish supporters, demanding a 'final solution' to the Jewish problem - the owner of the Tory Daily Mail joined him in his campaign
Thatcher became a popular post war leader - she tore Britain in half before climbing into bed with a mass-murdering dictator wh she described as a hero of democracy - she helped him escape being tried for his crimes at the human rights court
In the end, she even became an embarrassment to he own right wing party, who dropped her like a hot turd newly out of the oven

If you pair are going to be a double-act (may as well talk to each other - nobody else is interested), you need to decide WHO is going to be WHO
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Iains
Date: 03 May 20 - 05:27 AM

populism rules Ok
Not often I   agree with   you but:
Populism   won    the    referendum
Populism put Boris in   power with a huge majority
Populism put Labour into the wilderess for a generation.
Whhat is there not to like about it?


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 May 20 - 05:47 AM

ANOTHER REMINDER of POPULAR LEADERS
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 03 May 20 - 01:11 PM

It makes me laugh Iains, how these lefties consider this forum to be their own leftie shouting box!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Better to make snide remarks as a pm directly to Iains rather than appear to be flame baiting!


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 May 20 - 01:27 PM

"It makes me laugh Iains, how these lefties consider this forum to be their own leftie "
Shut up Archie and get back in your box
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 May 20 - 02:05 PM

Just a thought. Why would mods post as guests?


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 03 May 20 - 02:10 PM

Because they posted as a group, rather than an individual, would be my guess.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 03 May 20 - 02:11 PM

And I think the less we comment on it, the better. For everyone.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 May 20 - 02:14 PM

I suppose...


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 May 20 - 02:16 PM

Anyway, I notice that the number of tests has fallen very sharply. I guess that's because the postman doesn't come on Sundays...

Lies, damn lies and Tory lies...


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 03 May 20 - 02:26 PM

Hello mates - Much happening while I'm away from here spring cleaning my computers...???


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xPkKgrmgFTw


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 03 May 20 - 03:32 PM

Useless leftie crap continues!!

Stop. This could and probably would be looked at as trolling.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 03 May 20 - 03:44 PM

Bonz - yeah.. all that useless lefty crap
about trying to make sure fewer folks suffer needlessly, and die too early...???

Mind you, I've not been reading this thread,
but that's my edumacated guess...


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Iains
Date: 03 May 20 - 05:41 PM

There has been a lot of media attention given to the fact Dominic Cummins attended SAGE(Scientific Advisory Group for Emergencies) meetings on covid-19.
What is not so well known is that he blogged on related issues over a year ago.

March 4, 2019 by dominiccummings        
The most secure bio-labs routinely make errors that could cause a global pandemic & are about to re-start experiments on pathogens engineered to make them mammalian-airborne-transmissible



https://dominiccummings.com/2019/03/04/the-most-secure-bio-labs-routinely-make-errors-that-could-cause-a-global-pandemic-are-abo


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 May 20 - 05:54 PM

Conspiracy theories rule OK, eh?


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: DMcG
Date: 04 May 20 - 03:13 AM

Top scientists set up ‘shadow’ SAGE committee to advise government amid concerns over political interference

I am not sure anything will come of this - I can see political pressure being applied to convince the members that it 'may not be a good idea' - and I am sure they will end up advising the general public far more than the Government, who really do not want alternative views being aired.   But from a scientific viewpoint rather than a political one, it is akin to a peer review or a viva, and quite a good idea.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Iains
Date: 04 May 20 - 03:27 AM

Hardly a   conspiracy theory, prescience perhaps. However it makes Mr Cummins ideally suited to tease out a way forward from a team of experts on covid-19 lockdown.
Perhaps we should let him loose on the Electoral Commission next. They seem to have been wrong on every turn in recent times, from Russian collusion to breaking electoral spending rules. Every windmill they tilted at ended up in losing and humiliation. Totally unfit for purpose.
https://thecritic.co.uk/remains-media-blob-complex/

Next we have the outcome of Banks suing Guardian journalist Carole Cadwalladr to look forward to. We shall see again who is telling the porkies!


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Iains
Date: 04 May 20 - 03:36 AM

DMcG The idea may have merit as an alternative sounding board but I wouldwant to see the political affiliations of the members highlighted alonside their qualifications.
Question Time and Panorama are but two BBC programs breaking the BBC charter by omitting the labour activist background of certain of their interviewed "experts"

I suspct this latest wheeze is more of the same designed to contradict the government view and merely ending up totally confusing the public. A very bad idea and political mischief making of the highst order.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 May 20 - 03:48 AM

Maybe it should become mandatory for all those speaking on behalf of Government policy to reveal all the detains of their business connections and investment interests before being allowed to speak publicly on anything that they might benefit from ?
Now that should put a few fussy cats among the pigeons, when you remember the Hamltons and our latest 'let off the hook' villain who escaped for lack of evidence
In a democratic society, political views should never be a cause for anybody being allowed to speak publicly unless those views are publicly offensive or break the law of the land
I really can't remember anything in Labour policy being offensive to anybody other than the super-rich and to date, kit is still perfectly legal to want to make the world a better place for all
Long may that continue to be the case

"Useless leftie crap continues!!"
I take it the mods have noted this and will live up to their stated intentions?
Jim Carroll
    Perhaps you could learn a lesson from PFR, who responded with his usual wisdom and humo(u)r. -Mod-


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 May 20 - 03:50 AM

Must do something about this keyboard :-)
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: DMcG
Date: 04 May 20 - 03:58 AM

t I would want to see the political affiliations of the members highlighted alongside their qualifications.

In short, you want it to be seen as a political group, not a scientific one, because then you can claim the arguments are being made on political grounds?

No, the political affiliations are not relevant. The test of the quality of their conclusions must be in the transparency of their minutes and reporting. When they reach a conclusion that the R value is still above 1, for example, they need to show on what basis the yconclude that. It is not relevant if they are a Union representative or a Conservative Lord ennobled for his scientific contributions.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: DMcG
Date: 04 May 20 - 04:12 AM

Having looked a little more at the areas the alternative SAGE (Parsley?) will be looking at, one will be tracking applications. I think we can make a clear scientific and political distinction there.

Apple, Google, and the EU all favour a decentralised database mechanism: no body has access to all the data. The UK government favours a centralised one, where it has access to all the data (and the potential market value of that is high), but they promise they will not take advantage of that.

Technically, both approaches work. So on scientific grounds, they are virtually equivalent. Politically they are very different.

So I would expect the alternative SAGE to be examining how to make it work, what the effects of a 50/60/70/80 percent take up is and so forth. I would not expect them to be focusing on the centralised-decentralised question except in so far as it affects take-up.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Iains
Date: 04 May 20 - 04:19 AM

DMcG How do you   separate the politics from the science when the body is deliberately set up to be in opposition to the government?
Do the two bodies have the same objective? If not they are in opposition. If not in opposition, why duplicate?


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: DMcG
Date: 04 May 20 - 04:50 AM

I think my previous post gives a good example of how you separate the two. But I dispute the assertion it was set up to oppose. It is set up to independently review the data.   The government's conclusion is an amalgamation of the scientific, the business and the political advice. That is their right, and it is their duty to do so. All this group does is give a clearer picture of the scientific part of the advice. That means the government will need to say 'our decision is' rather than 'we are following the science.' In short, the new group is not opposing the government at all: it is simply encouraging government to accept its role in the decision making rather than passing the buck to SAGE.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 May 20 - 05:02 AM

The goveerment had deliberately ecluded the opposition from anything that happens - Covit, Brexit - anything
To attempt to quash any form of opposition, organised or otherwise, would be tantabountt to dicatorship   led b an elite and controlled by an non-elected advisor with the power to frog-march anyone who opposes them off the premises
The the sooner a well-organised opposition to that gets their act together, the better for British democracy
Jim Caarroll


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 04 May 20 - 05:23 AM

”The the sooner a well-organised opposition to that gets their act together, the better for British democracy“

Agreed, Jim. But there’s not much evidence of that coming to fruition in the foreseeable future. And if by some miracle it does, the Conservative Smear-Machine will swing in to action, along with their Three-Word-Slogan-Writer, in order to turn the heads of the easily-distracted and feeble-minded amongst us.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Iains
Date: 04 May 20 - 05:26 AM

DMcG   Iam afraid we willhave to disagree. The proposer for this alternative body is a former Labour chief scientific officer.
Try to convince me his motivees are entirely altruistic. I ain't buying into it. Chief meddler is how I view him. One set of experts is quite enough.His background is chemistry anyway - nowt to do with epidemiology or medicine. About as useful as bringing a brain surgeon to the meeting.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: DMcG
Date: 04 May 20 - 05:37 AM

His background is chemistry anyway

Maybe he is a good facilitator!


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Iains
Date: 04 May 20 - 05:47 AM


The goveerment had deliberately ecluded the opposition from anything that happens - Covit, Brexit - anything


First one has to find the opposition!
They seek him here, they seek him there.................

There is no opposition. We have the hard left, the soft left, the don't know left and the militants, and even they have split. What we have is splinters splintering. Even a vivid imagination cannot construct an oppositionn out of that!


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 May 20 - 06:09 AM

"But there’s not much evidence of that coming to fruition in the foreseeable future."
And there never will be if some people have their way
I think this virus wil hopefully bring out a clear view of what happens when incompetent and elitist people are given a free hand
Our leaders are straing at the leash to lift restrictions, against the aadvive of the experts, because business has begun to crack the whip
The workers at the front haven't yet got the protection equipment they need or the testing facilities necessary to cope with the present situation - never the possibility of an increase in casualties should this massive leap in the dark be forced through
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 May 20 - 06:12 AM

I see a thread has been opened which described the isolation of children as possible virus carriers as "ageist" for crying out loud
Who let Donald Trump onto this forum - his tweets get everywhere
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Rain Dog
Date: 04 May 20 - 07:15 AM

You might want to look at that thread again Jim. Simple typo


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Rain Dog
Date: 04 May 20 - 07:18 AM

The government do need to be looking at relaxing the restrictions. There is a need for people to get back to work.

Lots of businesses are going to be affected by this shutdown. It is not going to be a quick or easy return to work.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: DMcG
Date: 04 May 20 - 07:30 AM

That may or may not be so, Rain Dog. But if so, the statement needs to be "The Government has decided that is how to balance the competing interests" not "we are following the scientific advice."

Ending the lock down is no simple matter. Unless the public actually believe it to be safe, they may voluntarily stay locked down, to a substantial extent. There is no point opening restaurants, for example, if people don't feel safe going to them. In fact, it will probably cause them to fail, as - probably - the government support via furlough etc will come to an end, and insufficient customers return to make the restaurant viable. Remember every restaurant in the country has a certain number of tables and a planned occupancy. If you reduce the number of tables there may not be enough capacity even if the restaurant is full to cover all the costs. If the occupancy also goes down the business model is wrecked.   A local restaurant has sold vouchers for £100 which will buy £150s worth when they reopen. Good to keep them operating during the shut down, but yet another cost to cover when they reopen.

And that is just restaurants. You could make a similar case for lots of other venues, small businesses and groups. When the lock down ends, I will happily go to visit sites like RSPB Arne. Going to a cinema is another matter.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 May 20 - 07:31 AM

"Lots of businesses are going to be affected by this shutdown"
Nowhere near as the dead ther will be if this becomes a "rush to judgement" RD
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Iains
Date: 04 May 20 - 07:32 AM


Our leaders are straing at the leash to lift restrictions, against the aadvive of the experts, because business has begun to crack the whipO


Are you merely voicing an opinion or do you have facts to substantiate your allegations? Those are very serious charges against the democratically elected government. It would presume the tail is wagging the dog. I do not think Mr Cummins would stand for that!


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: weerover
Date: 04 May 20 - 07:39 AM

Jim,

Who is the "our latest 'let off the hook' villain who escaped for lack of evidence"?


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Iains
Date: 04 May 20 - 07:39 AM

Reclaiming sovereignty seems to be gaining in popularity. What future for Schengen now?


https://unherd.com/2020/05/how-covid-19-is-hardening-our-borders/?tl_inbound=1&tl_groups[0]=18743&tl_period_type=3


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 May 20 - 08:14 AM

Nightingale Hospital will be put on "standby" status from tomorrow, which underlines how serious this threat remains - not an ""opinion" echoed or otherwise - a fact
There can be no thought of easing the restrictions while such a situation exists
"'let off the hook' villain"
Been there, done that - he's one of many that stretch back decades in this 'old boy' society that protects their own
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Iains
Date: 04 May 20 - 08:40 AM

Guido has dug out the background of the alternative SAGE
as expected a bunch of lefty troublemakers.
We wil start with just two:

Chair: Sir David King

    Disastrously advised Blair and Brown to promote diesel cars
    Lost his job as the Government’s Special Representative for Climate Change under Boris as Foreign secretary. Subsequently emerged as a leading critic of Boris
    Promoted the conspiracy theory that Boris and Brexit are ‘alt right’
    Complained that the Conservative Government didn’t put him on the media enough with regards to climate change, telling the Guardian “It was absurd. Here was Britain doing more than almost the rest of the world put together on this issue and I’m kept off the public airwaves”
    Pushed for a second EU referendum

ages Professor Susan Michie

    Member of the British Communist Party of 40 years
    Donated £14,000 to the Labour Party under Corbyn
    Wife of former Corbyn SpAd Andrew Murray
    Mother of Labour’s Head of Complaints Laura Murray



https://order-order.com/2020/05/04/not-independent-activist-stuffed-shadow-sage/
I wonder how much their hot air will add to global warming?

You know, adding comments like 'leftie troublemakers' could be construed as flame bait or even trolling. Just saying...


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Rain Dog
Date: 04 May 20 - 08:56 AM

Indeed it is not going to be easy DMcG and I don't envy anyone who has to decide on how to go about it.

I am still working myself though the situation is not looking too good. Hopefully I will have a job for another few months at least. I work alone in the office 4 days a week. Walking to work each day I pass all the closed shops and wonder how it will ever be economic for them to restart trading if the social distancing remains in force. The job furlough scheme is only set to run until the end of June at the moment. If it ends then I can see a lot of people being laid off from work.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: weerover
Date: 04 May 20 - 08:59 AM

You haven't told me who the "villain" is, Jim. If you don't want to name names here, you can PM me.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 May 20 - 09:31 AM

Happy to talk to you anywhere Weer - you can find reference to his caase here
30 Apr 20 - 05:05 AM
A further clue HERE
It should be remembered that the feller attacking the police was the one claiming they were't doing their duty when a friend attacked an innocent bystander at a swimming pool the same feller supported a perition when the same thug was jailed for interfering with the course of a trial
At a tiime like this, the last thing we need is the undermining of the credibility of the forces of law and order, let alone calling for them to be sued at a time when Britain is probably about to enter a financial slump   
Sorry - didn't really want to pursue this
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: DMcG
Date: 04 May 20 - 09:50 AM

Indeed, RD. I hope things work out for you. It is a tough time all round, but likely to get a lot tougher, I fear.

I was thinking about another small business nearby. They are a costume-hire company, and something like three quarter of their trade is to individuals attending themed parties, and the remaining quarter to amateur (or occasionally professional) acting companies. Any amateur group performing a play set in historical times within about 70 miles is likely to visit them or one or other of a small number of competitors. They are not your typical high street fancy dress company selling plastic throw aways - they have a number of the original Star Wars costumes for example, costing hundreds to hire.

If the lock down doesn't end with a vaccine that people trust, who is throwing those parties? If am-dram can't perform, they won't be hiring. And in any case, do you fancy wearing something that others have been wearing for hours, even after extensive cleaning?

I can't see they will survive.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: DMcG
Date: 04 May 20 - 10:53 AM

Just noticed in a live feed that:

… Michie, who is also a member of the Scientific Pandemic Influenza group on behaviour, which feeds into the official government Sage...

That's the Professor Michie, the one with 40 year membership of the Communist Party, you know. So she is clearly acceptable to the Government as a source of advice via SPI-B, with or without Guido's approval.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 04 May 20 - 10:57 AM

Seems to be a direct personal attack on me! How else can it be read?

I read it as a simple mistake by Jim when copying and pasting the date. His post, immediately before yours, at 4:15 AM, is the one that made the reference to the case.

DC


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 04 May 20 - 11:04 AM

I believed Jim was referring to Aaron Banks.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 May 20 - 12:34 PM

Personal attack - wot me ?
Can't find it so I presume the accusation wa deleted
I certainly made none intentionally here

Worth reminding people that the Communist Party remains a legal organisation in Britain (and will continue to be while it remains as inept and as harmless as it has been for a long time)
Guido, on the other hand, is a convicted criminal blogger with connections to extremist organisations on the fringes of the law and a reputation for supporting fanatical mass murderers of Norwegian extraction
Just thought I'd mention it
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Raggytash
Date: 04 May 20 - 12:39 PM

It would seem that Pitri Patel is not alone in employing bullying tactics to get her own way.

Conor Burns has had to resign his position as Minister of State for Trade Policy after using House of Commons notepaper to support his fathers dispute over a loan. It is reported he made "veiled threats"

I wonder if his actions will be condemned by all on here.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: DMcG
Date: 04 May 20 - 12:56 PM

Conor Burns has had to resign his position as Minister of State for Trade Policy

All of the people on this and similar threads probably follow politics a lot more closely than the average UK citizen, but I have to admit my first reaction was: Conor Burns? Who is that? What, Minister? Trade Policy? How is he so anonymous?


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 May 20 - 01:11 PM

NASTY PIECE OF WORK - TYPICAL of OUR GLORIOUS LEADERS
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 May 20 - 08:35 PM

He's an arse, that's for sure. But what Tory MP isn't? I mean, why else would you be a Tory MP?


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Joe Offer
Date: 04 May 20 - 09:08 PM

Somebody told me today that liberal Democrats in the U.S. would be considered conservative in the U.K. - and that's something I've heard here over and over again. You mean, like U.S. Democrats are like Tories? Like Boris Johnson?
Seems to me, Boris Johnson and Trump could be twin brothers. And Maggie Thatcher and Ronald Reagan could have been womb-mates.

I've always admired Tony Blair, and can't quite understand why there's so much disdain for him among UK Mudcatters.

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: The Sandman
Date: 05 May 20 - 02:05 AM

joe. could be his support for the iraq war.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Iains
Date: 05 May 20 - 03:35 AM

Bliar Blair lied to the British people. Sexed up dossiers on weapoms of mass destruction were on his watch. Nothing   less than a   pack of lies to justify an illegal war. He also has to answer questions on the death of Doctor David Kelly, an internationally recognised expert on WMD who held very different views on the potential threat   and readiness of the   Iraqi   Forces compared to Blair
Even members of his own party despise Blair.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 05 May 20 - 04:10 AM

Joe, I think you’ll find that most dislike him because of his support for the second Gulf War - y’know, Dubya, the ‘Weapons of Mass Destruction‘ lie, etc. - and also because he veered away from what are regarded as true Socialist principles - by introducing university tuition fees, advancing John Major’s PFI initiative in the NHS, and the sale of half of our gold reserves when the market price was at rock-bottom, etc.

But what Blair had was wide public appeal - whether the hard-lefties like it or not, his personality was a major factor in making Labour electable. People liked ‘our mate Tony’ and Labour’s main problem now is that, in these days of ‘Personality-Politics’, they have no-one with the personal appeal to compete with the image that the Conservative propaganda-machine has managed to falsely create around Johnson, persuading former Labour-voters that a philandering, xenophobic, racist serial-liar, controlled by a sociopathic ‘unelected bureaucrat’ with little dress-sense or interest in personal grooming, is ‘a great guy’, and ‘one of the lads’.

Until Labour find a leader with the same kind of appeal that Blair brought to the party back in the ‘90s - someone who can control the hard-left, make sense of the ‘policy-diarrhœa’ of the last two general elections, and slay the nonsensical ‘Antisemitism’ dragon - I’m afraid they will have to resign themselves to being a (currently very weak) opposition. Sadly, there doesn’t seem to be anyone amongst the hierarchy with the appropriate attributes, which cannot be good for our politics


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 May 20 - 04:11 AM

"I've always admired Tony Blair, and can't quite understand why there's so much disdain for him among UK Mudcatters."
Not just mMdcatters
He like Thatcher, Enoch Powell and others became an embarrassment to their parties and despised by the people for their having lied and conned their wat to the top
Blair (B-liar) lied about weapons of mass destruction and involved Britain in an oil war that continues to destabalise the planet   
Tories make a big thing of him being 'Labour' (see immediately above) bt, while he may have started his political life with socialist, he gradually becamme a career politician, swung sharp right and out Toried the worst aspects of the Tories
'New Labour' was to Labour ideals as 'National Socialism' was to the real socialism of providing a better life and equality of the People as a whole - a hi-jacking of a title - In some way as genuinely democratic as your own 'Democrats' (look up the true meaning of the term)
"why else would you be a Tory MP?"
Money !!!
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Iains
Date: 05 May 20 - 04:47 AM

The   average   tory thought thatcher was the best   thing sice sliced bread. She should have a statue in every town and the miracles she performed with the british economy should gain her a sainthood.
All hail the mighty thatcher!


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 May 20 - 05:37 AM

Thatcher befriended a proven mass murders, fought to prevent him being tried for his horrific crimes and described him, because of his actions in Chile as "a hero of democracy" - those facts on Thatcher's 'love affair' with a facist dictator have never been disputed, then or since, even by her own party - the leaders of which allowed themselves to be herded into a Westminster Hall draped in crossed Chilean and British flags, to pay tribute to this monstrous thug, finally dropped her like a piece of hot shit and left British humanitarians with one of the fondest memories ever FONDEST MEMORIES EVER
   
The actions Thatcher described as "democratic" were, to overthrow a legally elected and popular government, to murder its leader, to round up many thousands of mainly students and young workers and herd them into Santaigo Stadium where they were tortured and murdered in their uncountable thousands
The young women were all systematically raped, many of them were sexually disfigured with knives and bayonets before having their throats cut
The many thousand dead were never fully counted as most of them became "the great disappeared" - still remembered and mourned in Chile
Folk singer, Victor Jara was indentified as such, singled out and had his hands crushed by a rifle butt, before being murdered

There - but for the grace of what remained of common decency in the Tory Party, would have gone Thatcher's "Democratic Britain" (try visualising defiant miners in place of Chilean students)

Can there possibly ne anybody here who disputes any of that - or who regrets the passing of the threat of Thatcher's "democracy" being foisted on Britain - any takers ??
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 May 20 - 05:38 AM

Oh - and does she represent "the avarage Tory's pin-up girls
I would love a "yes" to that one - Nigel, Stanron
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Iains
Date: 05 May 20 - 05:48 AM

Thatcher pin up girl of the tories. The 7th longest serving PM of all time. Still the most popular party in the UK and has driven labour to virtual extinction. A job well done I would say. Now we have the mighty Boris leading us even further away from the scorched earth labour wastelands. He is ever more popular in the polls whereas starmer the charmer is ever declining in popularity,and this is still his honeymoon period. Does not bode well for labour!


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 May 20 - 06:10 AM

Which proves that troll posts don't necessarily have to be in the shape of personal attacks. Infantile provocation is no better, in m'humble...


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 May 20 - 06:24 AM

Having established exactly what Thatcher stood for beyond question I'm delighted to find that Iains and I have now reached mutula agreement on at least this   
Those are the values of the present incumbent in Number 10 and those are the inbred values of the Tory Party - I have little doubt that they are also Iains's own values as he refuses to condemn them or even acknowledge their importance
An excellent way to start today's discussion
I refuse to believe they they are the values of the British people, but I'm prepared to consider any argument

https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/comment/tories-have-forgotten-that-thatcher-wasnt-just-a-terrorist-sympathiser-but-close-friends-with-one-10507850.html

THATCHER'S TAKE on DEMOCRACY
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: DMcG
Date: 05 May 20 - 06:36 AM

I was having a discussion earlier today. The topic for debate is "The new app for coronavirus tracing will develop into an electronic version of a government ID card and be used for such purposes well after the virus threat has been reduced to a low level or eliminated."

Thoughts, please, especially on why this will not happen.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Iains
Date: 05 May 20 - 06:41 AM

“Thatcher was Britain’s most important politician of the postwar era, her only rival for that title being Clement Attlee, creator of the welfare state. Her critics forget or ignore just how parlous was the state of Britain in 1979, and offer no credible policy alternatives about how the country could have been saved from union tyranny, hugely inefficient and loss-making state-owned industries, the stagnation of enterprise.

Her contribution to making Britain once more a viable proposition is almost impossible to overstate"


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 May 20 - 07:16 AM

As is a reply to her tendcy towards fascism - apparently
Mussolini made Italy's trains run on time until he and his lover were strung up to a lamp-post by the Italian people
Hitler was beloevd by the German people until he was forced to take a cyanide pill in bunker in Berlin
You missed a bit out of yyour quote, by the way - it continues:
By her third term, she was displaying a worsening stridency and even irrationality, vividly reflected in stubborn adherence to the poll tax when its unpopularity was manifest, and in her opposition to German reunification. Such behaviour caused her downfall.
None of which alters the facts about her fascism, of course

You appear not to want to defend her behaviour but to use it to denigrate the British people
Game, set and match, I thing
Over and out
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Iains
Date: 05 May 20 - 07:25 AM

You appear not to want to defend her behaviour but to use it to denigrate the British people ???????????????????????????????????????


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 May 20 - 07:26 AM

Mac
The exitance of other forms of information gathering, from internet gathering, mobile phone and computer tracking and commonplace street and inside cameras, along with recorded information, from councils, the police, Social services, MI5, Supermarkets... et al, virtually renders the carrying of identity cards irrelevant - here certainly - more so in the US
Things once invented about the old Soviet Union during The Clod War are and a part of everyday life in 'The Free West' for a long time
Nowadays, you can't wipe your arse without some official somewhere knowing which hand you used
Too late to worry about it now, I'm afraid


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Iains
Date: 05 May 20 - 07:36 AM

The United Kingdom last had compulsory national identity cards during the Second World War when they were introduced for security purposes. They were introduced under the the National Registration Act 1939, but were abandoned seven years after the end of that war, in 1952, amid widespread public resentment.
Labour made an attempt to reintroduce ID cards but the incoming Tory government repealed the legislation.
Any further attempts to introduce compulsion will e met with the same resistance.
As "The Prisoner said":
I will not make any deals with you. I will not be pushed, filed, stamped, indexed, briefed, debriefed or numbered. My life is my own.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 May 20 - 08:21 AM

I am now getting messages from Gmail asking me if I would like to send a reminder to the person I wrote to a few weeks earlier that they haven't replied yet
Worth a book if George Orwell hadn't pipped us all at the post seventy years ago
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Donuel
Date: 05 May 20 - 08:27 AM

Iains already declared game, set, match. Yet the beat goes on?
In this game there is no such thing as checkmate.
Should we wish for a checkmate?
In 1349 not even a 60%
death rate pandemic
defeated England.
England won.

Who wins now?


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 May 20 - 10:32 AM

"In this game there is no such thing as checkmate."
There shouldn't be but unfortunately when your points are ignored and stonewalled you are reduced to just posting what you believe to be true to whoever is interested and just accept that those you address your arguments to have no answer
Not a satisfactory way to debate but a victory of logic of sorts
Would that things were different
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Raggytash
Date: 05 May 20 - 01:23 PM

So now it's been announced that the UK has the highest number of deaths from Corona virus in Europe.

I wonder if our supporters of the present government consider that they could have dealt with the situation in such a way that some of these deaths could have been avoided.



Note to Iains: I don't include you in this and I've no desire to waste my time reading anything you post so save yourself the effort.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 05 May 20 - 01:25 PM

So much doom and gloom. Isn't their a table for those who have recovered?


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Raggytash
Date: 05 May 20 - 01:36 PM

The question we have to ask Bonzo is would there be less gloom and doom had the government responded differently. It has been suggested that this is the case and thus the government should be held responsible for some, not all, of the deaths.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 05 May 20 - 01:47 PM

I regard 30,000 deaths, with no foreseeable end to the ever-rising toll, as very good cause for doom and gloom. Who but a hard-hearted, soulless monster wouldn’t?


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 05 May 20 - 01:53 PM

And of the deaths, how many were fat with otherwise big health problems, how many were boozers with big health problems, how many were smokers with big health problems, how many simply refused to comply with distancing rules????


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Iains
Date: 05 May 20 - 02:00 PM

Note to Iains: I don't include you in this and I've no desire to waste my time reading anything you post so save yourself the effort.

You   obviously do, otherwise why   comment???


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 05 May 20 - 02:02 PM

Ah, I forgot to include ‘victim-blamer’ in that list of nauseatingly-unpleasant character-defects.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: DMcG
Date: 05 May 20 - 03:08 PM

it is now being reported that SAGE got documents today showing that false negatives and false positives will be a problem. It should not exactly be news to them as I first pointed out the problem here on 24 Apr 20 - 03:34 AM, and it was not great insight of mine: it is basic stuff.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Iains
Date: 05 May 20 - 03:09 PM

And of the deaths, how many were fat with otherwise big health problems,..............
"Of those requiring advanced respiratory treatment, 39% were obese, compared to 25% who had a healthy weight. Of those needing basic respiratory support, 37% were obese. Again, 25% had a healthy weight.

Further studies in the UK, New York, and China have also suggested an association between obesity and the coronavirus, and are being looked at by British ministers and experts.

A study by the Coronavirus Clinical Characterisation Consortium of people hospitalised with the virus in Britain found that the risk of death was 37% higher in obese patients.

Another study in New York found that severely obese people were six times more likely to be hospitalised with COVID-19. Obese people were four times more likely.

A study in China found that people with obesity could be three times more likely to develop severe pneumonia.

According to a report published by the Italian National Institute of Health, a study on a small sample of COVID-19 patients found that obesity was an underlying condition in some of those under the age of 50 who died, but the report doesn't draw any conclusions either way.

SAGE scientists are exploring potential “mechanisms” that could show a causal relationship between obesity and having more severe symptoms of COVID-19, including the potential for the increased inflammatory response in obese people to exacerbate symptoms of the virus.

Sources familiar with SAGE’s work stressed to BuzzFeed News that there was currently not sufficient evidence to prove that obesity itself resulted in increased mortality, and that more research needed to be done. They said that severely obese people are often likely to have other comorbidities that could be responsible for any worse symptoms.

Older people, men, black and Asian people, and those from socially deprived backgrounds were also seeing worse outcomes, the ICNARC data showed."


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 05 May 20 - 03:38 PM

Thank you Iains, that's very interesting indeed.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Raggytash
Date: 05 May 20 - 03:54 PM

Bonzo, Irrespective of other issues their deaths have been recorded as being caused specifically by the virus. They may not have died (yet) had the government reacted in a speedy manner.

The "yet" is there because we all die eventually, we just like to put if off for as long a possible, normally.

So how about addressing how the government have signally failed in their responsibility.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Raggytash
Date: 05 May 20 - 03:59 PM

Incidentally Farage has been "spoken to" by the police for visiting Bournemouth. He claimed he was a "key worker" !!!

What an a...……………… !


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 May 20 - 04:01 PM

Well it's hardly surprising, as obesity is quoted as an underlying condition with regard to the aggravation of heart disease, diabetes, etc., as well. Making the point that obese people may suffer worse from Coronavirus is valid. But just leave it there, eh? Well, unless you want to blame "fatties" for eating too many pies and fish suppers, of course, and telling us that they deserve all they get....

As for politicians and telling lies, well of course. But using the phenomenon to make some kind of distinction twixt Tory and Labour is simply dishonest. The other day, apropos of the last day of April, we were told by the Tories that the 100,000 tests per day target had been achieved, but it was a bare-faced lie, as around a third of those "tests" were merely test kits still in transit. Since then, the testing numbers have failed to reach that target every day, as I recollect. Best to accept that, to be a success in politics, you have to be quite good at spinning, bending the truth, putting on the best gloss, accentuating the positive...and, why, even telling lies...

By the way, almost every Tory MP supported Tony Blair in voting for the war. Millions of us on the street, holding hands, singing songs and waving banners, knew bloody well that Blair was lying. Perhaps the Tories were all just a bit too thick to see it. Or, instead, rather liked the idea of kicking Iraqi arse...

I can't decide which is worse, lying or hypocrisy...


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Iains
Date: 05 May 20 - 04:16 PM

Smoking is frowned upon and now banned in many places because it causes canncer and many other medical conditions. Why should
obesity be given a clean slate? it is equally damaging to health and caused by gluttony (apart from a minority with medical conditions)


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: DMcG
Date: 05 May 20 - 04:43 PM

UK wants to improve privacy safeguards for the tracking application. You can read the reasons, but an important one, as I said earlier, is that if people don't trust the app will protect privacy, less will download it, so it will be less effective. This is a human factors issue, less than a technical one.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 May 20 - 06:02 PM

You are more likely to die of Coronavirus if you're a man.

You are more likely to die of Coronavirus if you're old.

You are more likely to die of Coronavirus if you're poor.

You are more likely to die of Coronavirus if you're black.

You are more likely to die of Coronavirus if you live in an urban area.

You are more likely to die of Coronavirus if you live in a care home.

If you're overweight, or if you smoke, or if you drink too much, or if you sleep on the street, or if you don't exercise, sure, I'm going to give you a clean slate. Why? Because, like all the rest of us, you didn't live your life making a calculation about a virus that suddenly threatens us. In some ways I could be given to thinking that it's a shame that the virus doesn't preferentially attack the intolerant, the privileged and the bigoted. But I'll go high and, well, think like a human being instead.

Grand if you see anger in this post.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 May 20 - 06:05 PM

And, by the sound of it, you are more likely to die of Coronavirus if you're living in the UK. And the UK has been run by Tories for the last ten years.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 05 May 20 - 06:22 PM

Thank Clapton for that !!!!!!!!


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 05 May 20 - 06:32 PM

But I do blame the government for not ruling a weekly intake of treacle pudding and custard as added protection against the virus!!


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: DMcG
Date: 06 May 20 - 02:54 AM

According to some reports Rishi Sunak is preparing to wind down coronavirus furlough scheme from July.

There was only ever one rationale for the scheme: to ensure the businesses concerned and the people furloughed stayed together to ease the businesses restarting. So unless the lockdown is released enough for that to happen, all the money concerned has been thrown away for no purpose. And then the whole population must feel confident enough to use the services these businesses provide. And they must, of course, have enough money to do so.

As we have said before, reopening the economy is no simple matter.   But to end or reduce the furlough scheme without very precise targeting will have wasted the whole idea - which, let us recall, most of the "lefties" on these thread welcomed, and did the "righties". (It was on the previous incarnation, I think. Or possibly the one before, I lose track.)

There has been some essentially pointless speculation of what would have happened if Labour had won the election. One thing I am certain of is that had Labour won, and pursued exactly the financial policy Rishi Sunak did, we would hear that "Labour came in, wrecked the budget, forced businesses to the wall and created mass unemployment" for the next thirty years or so...


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 May 20 - 03:44 AM

"You are more likely to die of Coronavirus if you're a man."
Everything on your list and much more can be applied to mot other ailment in Britain today Steve - you may add general life expectancy to that list
Sam Larner had it summed up perfectly with the old Norfolk rhyme

"If health were a thing that money could buy
The rich would live and the poor would die"

Things have got worse rather than better - pretty provable with statistics too

The main problem now, Car homes, appears to bear out the accusations that Dom the Scumbag suggested that the weakest and most vulnerable in society should be sacrificed for the 'greater good' - it seems to be 'coming to pass' even though it was vehemently denied by the nodding dogs
The Government appears also to be dancing to big Business's tune and pushing through a relaxation of security measures while the crisis is still at it's peak
Madness
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Iains
Date: 06 May 20 - 04:05 AM

From: Steve Shaw - PM
Date: 05 May 20 - 06:02 PM
Why the anger?? are you overweight?
As the Clinical Director of the Weight Management and Wellness Center at Children’s Hospital of Pittsburgh and Associate Professor of Pediatrics at the University of Pittsburgh School of Medicine has said:
"Telling overweight people that eating too much is the root cause of their problem is met with disappointment, denial, and even anger.
Why is it so hard for some people to accept they are obese because they eat too much? Consider that I’ve never heard of a patient with lung cancer or emphysema deny having smoked too much. Nor have I even once heard of a patient with a sexually transmitted disease claim to be chaste, but obesity and its indisputable connection to overeating has much worse implications. The Catholic Church divided sin into two categories: venial or minor, and capital or deadly. Gluttony, together with lust, greed, sloth, wrath, envy, and pride, is among the latter."


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Iains
Date: 06 May 20 - 04:22 AM

The main problem now, Car homes
My   car does not have a home. My garage is used   for far   more important things.   I   would have thought covid-19    was   a tad more of a problem. Perhaps all   the rain in the west of Ireland creates a different perspective.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 May 20 - 04:53 AM

Moderator, I know the post hasn't been there for very long, but please consider removing the troll post of 04.05 AM.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 May 20 - 05:05 AM

Jim, in line (I think) with the sentiment of your post, the point I'm trying to make is that the middle of a pandemic (one incidentally, that is much worse in this country than it needs to be because of the Tory government's ineptitude) is not the time to start pointing fingers at people with medical conditions, whatever their cause. A fundamental principle of the NHS is that it doesn't judge. You won't be turned away suffering from a heart attack or diabetes because you weigh 18 stones. You won't be refused treatment for lung cancer or COPD because you've been a smoker. You get the same treatment as everyone else. You may be given friendly advice as to your lifestyle. We acknowledge that bad lifestyle choices can arise through poverty, ignorance or poor education. Instead of bollocking people for being obese, I could instead say (I won't) that we should shut down all KFCs and McShitteries and supermarket cake aisles...


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 May 20 - 05:41 AM

Totally in line with what I'm saying Steve
All I would add is that if this emergency were to end tomorrow (it won't of course), it's repercussions will be felt for a long time, probably decades
One of the major dangers is that the government, given it's built-in philosophy, will attempt to pay for those repercussions by putting the pressue on those who can least afford it
Does anybody seriously believe the wealthy will be asked to dig into their bank-balances to make up for what the nation is already losing ?
Yes - you can get cancer treatment without hving your history dragged in - how long is that likely to last when the purse holders are having to prioritise
This is why I added the Dom the Div policy to my posting

Just read about the Irish/Choctaw nation charity - still wiping the tears from my eyes
Surely the most human story to emerge from thois virus mess
Might open a thread on it as a morale booster - it shows the world is still lagely populated by human beings

CHOCTAW NATION CHARITY
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Iains
Date: 06 May 20 - 06:15 AM

By the way, almost every Tory MP supported Tony Blair in voting for the war.
The actual vote:
Labour Party (254), Conservative Party (146), Ulster Unionist Party (6), Democratic Unionist Party (5), Independent Conservative (1)


It would be more correct to say that for every Tory supporter there were nearly   2 labour supporters of the motion. Labour having an 88 seat   overall majority. (how times change!)
Silver tongued tony obviously had a way with words.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 May 20 - 06:38 AM

Two Tory MPs voted against and 17 abstained. 84 Labour MPs voted against and 67 abstained. Quoting the actual numbers is better than providing circuitous interpretations. And Labour's parliamentary overall majority was 167. Glad to be of help.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 May 20 - 06:56 AM

And I'd have been better saying that the overwhelming majority of Tories voted for the war. When I said "almost every Tory MP" I remembered the two demurrers but neglected to include abstentions. But my point stands. In fact, a far greater proportion of Tory MPs than Labour MPs supported the war.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Iains
Date: 06 May 20 - 07:03 AM

And Labour's parliamentary overall majority was 167.>

Thus times change even more. Thank you for making the point even more dramatic.
How far have the "mighty" fallen!


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 06 May 20 - 07:42 AM

It’s the nature of politics - things change. And sooner or later, they change back. There’s nothing permanent in the political world - remember the well-deserved fate of The Beast of Grantham, shafted by her own cronies.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Iains
Date: 06 May 20 - 07:59 AM

remember the well-deserved fate of The Beast of Grantham, shafted by her own cronies.

or more recently the corbynated clown, rightly shafted by the informed British Electorate


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 06 May 20 - 08:09 AM

The wrong man for the job. ‘Twas ever thus.
But things change in politics, and change again they will.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 May 20 - 08:18 AM

"And sooner or later, they change back"
Actually that's not exactly true Baccie
Things seldom, if ever return to where they were, especially after a crisis
Incredible progress was made in Britain after WW1 much of which was lost by the depression
The role of women (albeit upper and middle class ones) never really returned to as they were, but it took a deal with the devil on the part of the Suffragettes to send young man to their deaths in the tranches to achieve that small step
World War Twe gave us the Welfare State and other advantages never quite whittled away by the Tories since, but they'r doing their best
Conservationism by definition means keeping things as they are
Our present Tory supporter is a case in point - he would rather talk about 17 year old Labour politics rather than the cock-ups that are being made as we speak

Johnson has just apologised for the inexcusable care-home fiasco and his colleague is still defending the equally fiascopic testing non-policy
I don't believe history repeats itself but, with the Tories, some things never change, as we are learning daily, to our cost
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Iains
Date: 06 May 20 - 08:55 AM

he would rather talk about 17 year old Labour politics rather than the cock-ups that are being made as we speak

As a response to a   30 year old Tory politics being dredged up actually.
Johnson has just apologised for the inexcusable care-home fiasco and his colleague is still defending the equally fiascopic testing non-policy
Care homes have always been very vulnerable to infection, hardly surprising as they house people with health conditions. If able bodied they would be unlikely to be in a care home. At least in the UK the risk is recognised and acted on - unlike Spain where some care homes were abandoned and the residents left to die.

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2020/03/corpses-elderly-abandoned-spanish-care-homes-200324141255435.html
Hardly a care home fiasco after all the risk to vulnerable members of society is well known and the NHS has produced leaflets specifically targeting care homes.
https://phw.nhs.wales/services-and-teams/beat-flu/resources/other/beat-flu-information-pack-for-care-homes-english/


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Iains
Date: 06 May 20 - 08:59 AM

A similar "fiasco" in Ireland but he utters not a word


https://www.rte.ie/news/coronavirus/2020/0501/1135937-coronavirus-ireland/


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 May 20 - 08:59 AM

People are now dying in Care Homes possibly because Johnson is following Scumming's suggestion that they should be a low priority - not thirty years ago - NOW
Perhaps you might like to discuss the generation that was unnecessarily slaughtered in WW1 - that seems to be the direction your heading to ?
Or maybe whataboutism is more your metier
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Iains
Date: 06 May 20 - 09:07 AM

>I>People are now dying in Care Homes possibly because Johnson is following Scumming's suggestion that they should be a low priority - not thirty years ago - NOW



You   can hardly make Boris or the esteemed Mr Cummins responsible for what happens in Ireland as well. Surely even you cannot believe that, or can you?


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 May 20 - 09:28 AM

"Care homes have always been very vulnerable to infection, hardly surprising as they house people with health conditions."

Care homes are vulnerable to infection because there are very high levels of staffing who are coming and going 24/7 in shifts, and because quite large numbers of people are close together, and because it's a challenge keeping on top of the stringent hygiene requirements, both personal and communal. It doesn't help that the staff are just about the lowest-paid in the land, receive only the most basic training and are daily confronted with some tasks that many of us would find unpleasant.

You are not necessarily more vulnerable to infection simply because you have "health conditions," though you may suffer more severely should you acquire an infection. The distinction between your remark and the reality is the very reason we have such a crisis now in care homes. The care-nothing Tories expect the oldies to get more bugs and just shrug. Had the reality been faced up to at the beginning of this crisis, we wouldn't have the devastating situation in care homes that we now have.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 May 20 - 10:14 AM

"Mr Cummins responsible for what happens in Ireland as well."
You mean the generosity that is being shown by the Irish people of course
They certainly aren't responsible for the humanity that still exists here - their types tried to wipe that out with starvation a century and a half ago

What Seve said about overworked, underpaid and unappreciated care-home workers - with knobs on
One of the things Ireland is streets ahead on is the respect shown for the elderly - despite right wing Governments and a somewhat indifferent younger generation that probably lost that respect through emigration and picking up bad habits
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Iains
Date: 06 May 20 - 10:24 AM

The care-nothing Tories expect the oldies to get more bugs and just shrug. Had the reality been faced up to at the beginning of this crisis, we wouldn't have the devastating situation in care homes that we now have.

So let me get this right. It is all the tories fault.

According to the Guardian Belgium counts all coronavirus deaths outside hospitals in its daily statistics: deaths in care homes account for 53% of the total.
According to the Irish Times:Nursing homes account for 50 per cent of coronavirus deaths in Ireland
The guardian again:Snapshot data from varying official sources shows that in Italy, Spain, France, Ireland and Belgium between 42% and 57% of deaths from the virus have been happening in homes, according to the report by academics based at the London School of Economics (LSE).
Those tories get everywhere do they not?
OR is your allegation just a totally unfounded slur on the government efforts. Even the lefty Guardian cannot support your accusation!


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Rain Dog
Date: 06 May 20 - 10:43 AM

Care homes contain a lot of older people who are more at risk from dying from the virus.

Social care is something that needs to be looked at. It has been avoided by most governments here in the UK. It would be nice to think that the major parties would try to get together to come up with a long term plan. I am not sure that I will live long enough to ever see that happening in the UK. Whichever party is in charge they seemed happy enough to leave it for the next government to tackle.

Jim posted his usual "One of the things Ireland is streets ahead on is the respect shown for the elderly - despite right wing Governments and a somewhat indifferent younger generation that probably lost that respect through emigration and picking up bad habits"

Streets ahead? I don't think so. Then you blame that on right wing (do you ever see any other sort?) governments, and emigration? MMmmm now I wonder which country that they emigrate to that is the cause of that?


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: DMcG
Date: 06 May 20 - 10:45 AM

Maybe that is not an accurate quotation in (or from) the Guardian. Elsewhere it is being reported:

Of Belgium’s registered deaths, 44 percent died in hospital (and were tested). The majority, 54 percent, died in a nursing home — and only in 7.8 percent of those cases was COVID-19 confirmed as the cause. (Yes, I know 44%+54% is less than a 100% - some deaths are in neither hospital nor care homes.)


Agreed, then, 54% are in nursing homes. But less than ten percent are confirmed to be because of covid-19, if those other reports are correct.

Everyone, including in these threads and the government spokesmen and their scientists, is saying international comparisons have to be done with extreme care because they do not all count the figures in the same way. Belgium is a very good example where the counting includes more than then UK system does.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 May 20 - 10:47 AM

unfounded slur on the government efforts"
Johnson has just admitted that the Tories have dropped a bollock on care Homes and apologised for it
How dare you contradict our glorious leader ?
You really are asking for the Scummings Frog March treatment
Or maybe Johnson is still delirious after his bout of the Dreaded Lurgi !!!!
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 May 20 - 10:50 AM

The Guardian has been by far the most critical of the government of all newspapers, and a poll published yesterday (in a letter to subscribers with a graph that this website won't let me reproduce) showed that it is the newspaper most trusted on Coronavirus reporting, by a considerable margin. Maybe that's lookupable somewhere. Is the situation in care homes the Tory government's fault? Absolutely it it is, one hundred percent. The Tories have been in charge for ten years. They have made promise after broken promise that they would fix the care sector. Instead, they have done nothing and have sat back whilst the ageing population grows ever larger. The situation in care homes was a disaster waiting to happen, and, as with every other aspect of this pandemic, the Tories have been way behind the curve every step of the way. Well, I suppose you could always blame God. Maybe you think the buck should stop with those feckless enough to allow themselves to get into such a state that they need care, a bit like those fatties...


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 May 20 - 10:54 AM

From the letter to subscribers:

"...an Oxford University survery of 2,700 people in the UK found that Guardian coverage of Covid-19 has been substantially better than that of its newspaper rivals with twice as many Britons impressed by our work on the pandemic compared to any other British newspaper. This is a hugely satisfying verdict given how hard our teams have been working over the past six weeks. In a note to staff, our editor-in-chief Katharine Viner said: "Thank you very much, once again, for your brilliant work through this crisis. Your energy, resilience and commitment are inspiring."


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 May 20 - 11:01 AM

A bit more:

"The Guardian’s coverage of the coronavirus outbreak is considered to be substantially better than that of any other British newspaper, according to a University of Oxford study looking at the UK population’s attitudes to news during the lockdown.

According to the research, twice as many Britons said they felt the Guardian was doing a “good job” covering the pandemic compared with the Times, its nearest rival.

The Guardian’s website was also one of the most-read sources for information on the outbreak, second only to BBC News. This fits with internal traffic statistics which show the Guardian has consistently reached record audiences over the last two months, while also seeing a surge in reader contributions to fund its journalism.

Other outlets fared less well but the Sun and the Mail were the only national newspapers where more people felt they were doing a “bad job” than approved of their reporting on the pandemic.

The survey by YouGov for the University of Oxford’s Reuters Institute also found that the BBC’s output continues to dominate online news consumption in the UK, with 36% of the population saying they had turned to the public service broadcaster’s website for coronavirus coverage.

Around 16% said they had visited the Guardian’s website, with Sky News and MailOnline in joint third place on 9%.

TV broadcasters continue to outrank all national newspapers in overall trust ratings and audience levels, aided by their far wider reach."

There's more, and there are are caveats, if you can be arsed to look it up for yourself.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Iains
Date: 06 May 20 - 11:42 AM

TV broadcasters continue to outrank all national newspapers in overall trust ratings and audience levels, aided by their far wider reach."
YouGov figures show British trust in the press to tell the truth has fallen, with less than half believing BBC news journalists are honest and impartial

As the BBC responds to claims of bias following its coverage of the general election, YouGov polling reveals that faith in BBC News journalists to tell the truth has dropped, but the trend is not unique to the broadcaster, with trust in journalists falling across the board.

Less than half of Britons (44%) now say they trust the institution to tell the truth despite its public charter to remain politically neutral. This is a fall of seven percentage points since October.
Britons see the tabloid press as the least trustworthy, with half (51%) now saying they wouldn’t trust the newspapers in this bracket to tell the truth at all, and another third (34%) saying they wouldn’t
trust the paper much, for a total of 85% of UK adults who don’t fully
trust the tabloids. Over half have little trust i the upmmarket papers.

This mmakes the guardian figures rather misleading. and I can provide the link

https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2019/12/16/do-britons-trust-press


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 May 20 - 11:49 AM

Not as "rather misleading" as the fact that you are presenting us with an entirely different survey that was carried out before Coronavirus. Or perhaps you didn't notice.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Iains
Date: 06 May 20 - 12:00 PM

Here is the latest one:
https://yougov.co.uk/topics/media/articles-reports/2020/04/29/no-trust-media-has-not-collapsed-because-coronavir
This is where   we discerning tories have a lower level of trust than the gullible left.

Labour voters have become more trusting of media, while the latest YouGov poll reveals that trust has fallen among Conservative voters over the past week. While this partisan gap is quite typical for trust in BBC journalists (who since 2010 have usually been viewed more positively by Labour supporters), it has been turned on its head for broadsheets. Traditionally Conservative voters have tended to be more trusting of upmarket newspapers, but this is no longer the case – with 46% of Labour voters saying they trust journalists from these papers, but just 29% of Conservative voters saying so (a nine-point swing on the partisan balance of opinion from December).
Since no sensible tory even gives bin space to the guardian, whatever it may say is of no interest   to the ruling party or its membership.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 May 20 - 12:04 PM

Steve
It neds to be remembereed that UGov is a right wing set up organisation which canvasses for information among the same type of people
It also needs to be remembered taht the poster here brushes aside all surveys, Government statements political opinions and press reports that don't suit him or don't come from criminal bloggers as "fake News
I'm sure you know tat
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Iains
Date: 06 May 20 - 12:10 PM

Maybe that is not an accurate quotation in (or from) the Guardian.
Then again maybe it is.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/apr/13/half-of-coronavirus-deaths-happen-in-care-homes-data-from-eu-suggests
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/apr/24/is-comparing-covid-19-death-rates-across-europe-helpful-


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 May 20 - 12:30 PM

"Maybe that is not an accurate quotation in (or from) the Guardian."
One of those reports is early a month old - the other had been overtaken by recent admissions and events
In this situation the en=vents alter daily
Johnson made his confession today - I kow he is prone to telling porkies, but only when they are in his interest
How about addressing stated facts thather than opinions
Did he lie ?
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 May 20 - 12:34 PM

Mind you, he has promised to pu things right on Monday
https://www.politicshome.com/news/article/boris-johnson-drops-clear-hint-coronavirus-lockdown-measures-will-change-on-monday-as-he-confirms-sunday-speech

Wonder how many people will die between now and then !!
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Iains
Date: 06 May 20 - 12:39 PM

Here we go again slagging off yougov. Do you not ever get bored?

A King’s College survey found that a majority of people (58%) think the government has adapted well to the changing scientific information and situation. Almost 90% support the lockdown measures while 81% support the increased powers given to police.
and a little piccie fromm the Sky news survey where it paints a thousand words and none of it good for newspapers
https://i2.wp.com/blogsmedia.lse.ac.uk/blogs.dir/19/files/2020/04/Screenshot-2020-04-24-at-09.23.10.png?ssl=1

and   a little gem from guido that could be most informative:
How can the UK economy get back on its post-pandemic feet? How will the government address the massive debt mountain created in the wake of coronavirus?   And how quickly should Britain return to work?
https://order-order.com/2020/05/06/from-rishi-to-rags/


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: DMcG
Date: 06 May 20 - 12:40 PM

Maybe that is not an accurate quotation in (or from) the Guardian.
Then again maybe it is.


Or maybe you have highlighted the wrong bit: Notice that in (or from)?

Why do you think I put both of those, rather than just one? I will answer: because I thought it possible that it was an accurate quotation from the Guardian, but that the Guardian had not seen and/or reported the fact that only 7.8% of the deaths in care homes had be confirmed as due to the virus.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Iains
Date: 06 May 20 - 01:13 PM

DMcG I think you attach a reliability to the cause of death on a certificate that simply does not exist. From the link:
Death certificates from 433 autopsied hospital patients were reviewed and matched against the results of post-mortem examinations. Significant discrepancies between the two documents were observed in 50% of patients. In 25%, the immediate cause of death was incorrectly stated on the certificate, having been assigned to a different organ system in the majority of those cases. In 33%, there was disagreement on major disease other than the immediate cause of death. In 9%, the death certificate was signed before the autopsy was performed. The extent of disagreement was largely independent of whether the certificate was signed before or after the autopsy. We conclude that: (1) there is a significant discrepancy between autopsy diagnoses and entries on death certificates; (2) disagreement is not due to unavailability of autopsy data at the time of completion of the certificate; (3) death certificates should be completed or amended utilizing data gained at autopsy.


https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1871957
"lthough confirmed cases are reliant on a positive laboratory confirmation of the COVID-19 test, a laboratory diagnosis may not be required for it to be listed as the cause of death. In the UK guidelines, for example, it makes clear that practitioners should complete death certificates to the best of their knowledge, stating that “if before death the patient had symptoms typical of COVID19 infection, but the test result has not been received, it would be satisfactory to give ‘COVID-19’ as the cause of death, and then share the test result when it becomes available. In the circumstances of there being no swab, it is satisfactory to apply clinical judgement.”

This means a positive COVID-19 test result is not required for a death to be registered as COVID-19. In some circumstances, depending on national guidelines, medical practitioners can record COVID-19 deaths if they think the signs and symptoms point towards this as the underlying cause."
https://ourworldindata.org/covid-deaths
It is nnot   a perfect world.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 May 20 - 01:28 PM

The film has just been put up of Johnson admitting Starmer "is quite right of course" over the Care Home scandal - the fact that he has announced a meeting on Monday to DISCUSS IT
The fact that he has called this meeting in five days time prompt's two thoughts -
1. Why hasn't there been one called before this reached the crisis stage it obviouly has?
and
2. Why leave it for five days if the situation has reached the stage where the Prime Minister has been forced to apologise for it?   

Wonder what UGov have to say about that?
Answers on a postcard.....
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: DMcG
Date: 06 May 20 - 01:55 PM


DMcG I think you attach a reliability to the cause of death on a certificate that simply does not exist.


You are free to think that if you wish. I don't, because I have been dealing with data uncertainty for a very long time indeed. Pretty much all my working life has involved data of dubious quality, inconsistent definitions, different people interpreting the same rules in different ways and so on and so forth. But that's what you think, fine by me.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 May 20 - 01:58 PM

"Streets ahead? I don't think so. Then you blame that on right wing (do you ever see any other sort?)"
Not when their policies are blindingly obvious RD
Go look at Irish homelessness policy that has caused mass marches - as has water taxation - as has showing arses too vulture capitalism by allowing companies like Goldman Sachs to buy up rented property, evict the tenants
Left wing parties would have done none of that
At the last election the Irish people overwhenlimingly supposted left wing policies with their vote
Now the established parties are forming a coalition to make sure this will not happen
It really isn't rocket science - or delusion
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Iains
Date: 06 May 20 - 03:28 PM

DMcG I am not about to argue with you. I also have dealt with data all my working life,compiling,collating and analysing. I have yet to encounter 100% accuracy. Any internet search on the accuracy of death certificates uncovers a host of articles in the literature, none particularly flattering when it comes to a discussion of their accuracy.
According to Geriatric Medicine:
In the United States it is estimated that the rate of major errors (eg, incorrect cause of death [CoD], incorrect manner of death) found on death certificates completed at academic institutions is approximately 33% to 40%.1 Internationally, this rate at some hospitals rises as high as 80%. I find it hard to believe they would make these figures up.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 May 20 - 04:05 PM

"I also have dealt with data all my working life,compiling,collating and analysing."

Well yes. However, your vast experience didn't prevent you from confusing one rather simple set of data with another earlier today, did it? As you think the Guardian is so unreliable, etc., perhaps you'd be a good fit if you went and worked there...


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: DMcG
Date: 06 May 20 - 04:34 PM

I have never claimed to be infallible. Working on my phone it is not easy to type and cross check things, so I don't know which two data sets I confused, but if I did I did.

when I said a fact might have been omitted from an article in the Guardian what I had in mind was nothing to with deliberate distortions or errors. It is simply that every newspaper article will include what they think are the most salient points. There is always a judgement how important a detail is, and if space is limited (or time to write it is limited) a less salient point may be omitted. You may include more and more and more of these points in your article, but the need to publish forces you to draw a line somewhere.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Iains
Date: 06 May 20 - 04:34 PM

At the last election the Irish people overwhenlimingly supposted left wing policies with their vote

        Fianna Fáil38%
        Sinn Féin 37%
               Fine Gael 35%
SINN FEIN leader Mary Lou McDonald has launched a stinging attack on the European Union, accusing it of being "no great friend to Ireland" during the 2008 financial crisis, in a strong indication of growing euroscepticism in her country.
So if the left kick out Varadkar how soon before a referendum on leaving the EU??
Could get interesting!


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Iains
Date: 06 May 20 - 04:37 PM

you'd be a good fit if you went and worked there...

I do have standards you know! There is the press, and the gutter press.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: DMcG
Date: 06 May 20 - 04:39 PM

And as proof of my lack of infallibility I think.I completely misunderstood you post, Steve. My apologies!


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 May 20 - 05:39 PM

That's OK, DMcG. I was puzzled for about 28 seconds!


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 May 20 - 03:26 AM

Ireland now Iains
I take it you've laid off defending the Tory's lethal policy on the virus then
Who's to blame you
A pretty comprehensive history here
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-britain-path-speci/special-report-johnson-listened-to-his-scientists-about-coronavirus-but-they-were-slow-to-sound-the-alarm-idUSKBN21P1VF

Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: The Sandman
Date: 07 May 20 - 03:38 AM

i think jeremy would have acted quicker as regards a lockdown. i doubt if cheltenham would have happened.the party is more concerned about people and less worried about safeguarding businesses, ironically in the long term having an early lockdown does both of these things witness new zealand.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: weerover
Date: 07 May 20 - 04:15 AM

Iains's voting figures from the Irish election add up to 110%!


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 07 May 20 - 04:21 AM

Yes Dick, New Zealand, has two advantages, first it is remote, second it has by far the most capable national leader in the anglophone world. I say national leader there, because Dan Andrews the Victorian state premier would run her close. He is of course getting savaged in the mewling Murdoch press, but he is good. The Australian states, rather than the Australian federal government, are largely responsible for the relatively good performance of Australia in the Coronavirus crisis.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 07 May 20 - 04:24 AM

The idea that you would even consider lifting the lockdown in England is bizarre, not to say murderous. This is of course a devolved issue in the rest of the UK, and Sturgeon and Drakeford will hold their ground, as they seem to value people above profit.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 May 20 - 04:32 AM

"I also have dealt with data all my working life,compiling,collating and analysing."

Well yes. However, your vast experience didn't prevent you from confusing one rather simple set of data with another earlier today, did it? As you think the Guardian is so unreliable, etc., perhaps you'd be a good fit if you went and worked there...


And now:

"Iain's voting figures from the Irish election add up to 110%!"

Grimm! :-)


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Rain Dog
Date: 07 May 20 - 04:51 AM

I don't think that the idea of easing (rather than lifting) the lockdown is bizarre. I certainly don't think that the idea is murderous or just putting profit before people.

I expect that they will start to ease restrictions. In all probability the fact that they are talking about it will prompt more people to get out and about this weekend, especially if the weather is ok.

We do need to be considering how we return to 'normal' or the 'new normal' while also keeping an eye on what happens with regards to the virus.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Monique
Date: 07 May 20 - 04:53 AM

Irish elections results. Iain's figures are the number of seats, not the %.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Iains
Date: 07 May 20 - 04:59 AM

The figures were from the express and did not specify what they alluded to. I assumed incorrectly. They actually state the number of seats in the Dáil Éireann,of which there are another 31 I believe, split between a number of minor parties. The lefty greens are the next largest contingent with 12 seats.

Ireland now Iains
You keep on insisting Ireland is the promised land and has shown the way of the righteous, I merely point out it ain't as rosy as you like to make out.

I am very satisfied with the wayy the governmennt is dealing with the crisis, had it been compo clowns I dread to think what would have happened. That is not to say the actions have been   perfect. Perhaps too much emphasis given to   the pantless prat ffrom Imperial with his scaremongering. (his record of the foot and mouth outbreak was many degrees shy of stellar - and how much did that cost?)
I also have issues with the committee that dealt with care homes and their three pathways for emptying hospital beds. Seems to me there was a fourth pathway emanating from Liverpool as a direct result of their recommendations

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/880288/COVID-19_hospital_dischar


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Iains
Date: 07 May 20 - 05:48 AM

the(Labour) party is more concerned about people and less worried about safeguarding businesses,
Yup! That is labour through and through. Shake rattle and roll the magic money tree!
But if lockdown has trashed the economy labour's popsicles cannot be purchased. The usual total disconnect of the left exemplified above.
If lockdown is prolonged the economy will not be simply hurt, but destroyed. No government can continue to pay a workforce to be idle.
Today it is merely a virus scaring people. On the present path tomorrow will be starvation and societal collapse. Take your choice!
Gettingupin the morning presents risk. Deal with it.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 May 20 - 05:53 AM

"You keep on insisting Ireland is the promised land and has shown the way of the righteous, "
Anybody whoio did that would be incredibly stupid
Ireland id a Capitalist country increasingly dominated and occasionally ruined by Bankers with a superior electoral system to offset ot at least slow down the worst aspects of that fact
It has it's problems as does every other similarly placed country inside the EU and outside but here the people have a louder voice and are not brushed aside once the election results are announced
Demonstrations on the street on water, homelessness, and poverty have caused major rethinks of policy and will continue to do so as several of those demonstrations have led to the setting up of political parties that have now won a voice in the Dail
Ther is no guarantee for the future but at least thaere is a move to getting one
Britain has yet to move from feudal dominance with such throwbacks as a 'constitutional monarchy', and a House of Lords' used for rewarding the rich and the political sell-outs - elderly men (largely) who use 'the other place' as a gentleman's club for an afternoon nap
I think Monique's country had the right idea when they settled their 'growing poverty problem' on the Place de la Concorde a few centuries ago (Britain got rid of all it's lamp-posts)
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: The Sandman
Date: 07 May 20 - 06:10 AM

david NZ is NOT remote as regards air travel, NEITHER is Australia


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Iains
Date: 07 May 20 - 06:11 AM

(Britain got rid of all it's lamp-posts) What utter nonsense!


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 07 May 20 - 06:25 AM

Iains: (Britain got rid of all it's lamp-posts) What utter nonsense!

I think Jim is only referring to the low level street lights with cross bars just below the lamp level, suitable for lynchings. (from the rest of his comment). This suggests that he feels mob rule could still be a valid option.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Iains
Date: 07 May 20 - 07:02 AM

Nigel it is held by many that we are but 9 meals from anarchy when the vittles run out. Perhaps Jim secretly agrees that extended lockdown will have unhappy outcomes.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 May 20 - 07:27 AM

Thanks Nigel
If you were serious (I hope you were's) you share your fellow Torie's lack of a sense of hmour
We already have mob rule - it's called populism and it took us out of Europe
Using race hate as a political weapon is exactly that
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Iains
Date: 07 May 20 - 07:30 AM

Interesting   point of view   from Sweden (from the lancet):
COVID-19 is spreading like wildfire in all countries, but we do not see it—it almost always spreads from younger people with no or weak symptoms to other people who will also have mild symptoms. This is the real pandemic, but it goes on beneath the surface, and is probably at its peak now in many European countries. There is very little we can do to prevent this spread: a lockdown   might   delay   severe cases for a while, but once restrictions   are   eased,   cases   will   reappear. I expect that when we count the number of deaths from COVID-19 in each country in 1 year from now, the figures will be similar, regardless of measures taken.
https://www.thelancet.com/action/showPdf?pii=S0140-6736%2820%2931035-7
Rather different to the line being peddled by many here.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: DMcG
Date: 07 May 20 - 07:37 AM

Whether New Zealand is or not remote in terms of air traffic is a matter of judgement. For comparison, in 2019 the UK top ten airports had 254,628,734 total passengers of whom 186,339,975 are terminating whereas New Zealand had 41,327,639 total passengers. I am not sure how many of these are between the islands, but I would expect quite a high proportion.

('Terminating' means they were not taking a onward flight elsewhere.)


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Rain Dog
Date: 07 May 20 - 07:57 AM

Jim not everyone is going to vote the same way as you. I sometimes think you will only ever be happy in a one party state (as long as that party was the one that you supported)


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 May 20 - 08:22 AM

"Jim not everyone is going to vote the same way as you."
Of course they're not RD but given The Bank of England has just predicted that Britain is heading for a recession depper than ever recorded and a doubling of Unemployment figures, I defy anyone to predict how the British people will vote in the future
The old 'Pie in the sky' election promises were already wearing pretty thin before all this happened - a situation worse that the 'Hungry Twenties' is hardly going to have the turkeys rushing to the polls to vote for Christmas, is it?
Does anybody really believe the Briish people to be as stupid or as altruistic towards those who already have too much to spend in ten lifetimes? I don't

A single party system is necessary at a time when a system is changing - such as post WW! Russia; that's's not going to happen either
What we have in Britain as a pretense for democracy is a one system system
When that system ceases to serve all the people, as it has been or a long time, new ways forward have to be found - the logical one at present being an agreed coalition of all responsible parties dedicated to clearing up the pandemic mess
Any attempts to return to the old 'dog-eat-dog' system will lead to total anarchy - you only have to remember the mess Thatcher created in dividing Britain into North and South and smashing age old industries without replacing them - mass demonstrations, Poll Tax riots and a sharp and continuing rise in racism (which included institution racism in the forces of 'law and order'
Is that your idea of democracy ?
If so - I suggest you rethink your 'sheep to the slaughter' image of the British 'ordinary person'
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 May 20 - 08:26 AM

If you have a repy RD - I suggest you look a little nearer home that 'Sweden' - whataboutism ain't gonna impress either
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Iains
Date: 07 May 20 - 08:47 AM

We already have mob rule - it's called populism and it took us out of Europe
Hilarious Democracy took us   out   of europe.
Democracy elected MPs who would honour the referendum and get brexit done.
Populism wrecked the parliamentary careers of the traitors.
That was democracy in action.!
Populism=a political approach that strives to appeal to ordinary people who feel that their concerns are disregarded by established elite groups.
Rather explains how Boris kicked labour into the long grass. Ignore the electorate at your peril. They always have the whip hand.
Boris is getting more popular by the day- that is populism in action.
Doncha jus luv it!


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 May 20 - 09:14 AM

"Hilarious Democracy took us   out   of europe."
Tell the victims of the sharp rise in racism that was used to take Britain out that
Or does democracy only count for WASPs
HERE
Democracy can only be democratic when all the facts are available to everybody
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 May 20 - 09:33 AM

Incidentally
I assume everybody is aware that the unstable Prick on Pennsylvanian Avenue
has threatened retaliation against China for deliberately starting the virus
Now that really is going to help the World Economy no end - innit - not to mention the Doomsday Clock
Anybody who believes things don't have to change must be as bonkers as he is
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 07 May 20 - 09:54 AM

Doomsday Clock jumped a lot closer this year with Trump in place.

Iains loves to use examples that set all of you on edge, he calculates his posts in order to do that. Whether or not accounts stay open or take time off for bad behavior, it would be nice if you would stop feeding the troll.

Reminders aren't invitations to reply or argue.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: DMcG
Date: 07 May 20 - 10:19 AM

There is a risk of 'populism versus the government' over the next few days. According to live feed:

======

Johnson has told his cabinet that the government will adopt “maximum caution” as it moves to ease the lockdown. Johnson chaired a cabinet meeting this morning and, according to the prime minister’s spokesman, Johnson told his ministers:

We are not going to do anything that risks a second peak. We will advance with maximum caution in order to protect the NHS and to save lives. We will be guided at every step by the science and the data and we will closely track the impact of any easing of the social distancing measures and will not hesitate to tighten the rules if required.

======

The flavour of this is very different to a lot of newspaper headlines, including the Daily Mail, the Sun, the Express and the Daily Star, which all talk as if there will be a substantial relaxation of the lockdown from Monday. The Telegraph is more stately, merely saying '"Stay at Home" advice to be scrapped', but all of them seem counter to the "maximum caution" approach from number 10.

If populism wins out, we could wipe out all the potential benefits of the lockdown at a stroke.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 May 20 - 10:52 AM

Absolutely Mac
The message from number 10 is contradictory - the only consistency lies with the exxpets who say "to soon" - though the may differ in nuance on occasion
Busness cannot have a say in this on the ground of 'self interest'
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Rain Dog
Date: 07 May 20 - 10:54 AM

Jim posted "If so - I suggest you rethink your 'sheep to the slaughter' image of the British 'ordinary person'"

I think that is more your image than mine Jim. Oh and I did not mention Sweden either.

+
DMcG

I think that we will see some relaxation but not a substantial relaxation of the lockdown. I agree that the press coverage, as usual, has not helped along with the message that something will be said on Sunday. I was in town late morning and there were quite a few people walking around, albeit keeping a safe distance from each other. There was the usual manoeuvring to obtain a more southern position in the precinct. If the weather holds I expect to see more people out and about over the long weekend.

Might well be an idea to allow, encourage DIY stores and garden centres to open, if they have not done so already. Shame to waste all that spare time that people had.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Rain Dog
Date: 07 May 20 - 11:08 AM

I see that Household Waste Recycling Centres are reopening around the country. Not before time. Here in Kent they are reopening from 15.5.20 for 'essential' use. Slots will have to be booked in advance and you will only be able to book one trip in any 4 week period.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 May 20 - 11:39 AM

" Oh and I did not mention Sweden either."
Somebody else sahring your politics did
" complain about perceived insults."
" you might all be able to get out more."
Which wasn't an insult of course
Iains has been branded a troll by the mods who have instructed us to ignore him - think on't
"I think that is more your image than mine Jim"
That's the definition of the populism Iains advocates for - read the FT article and tell me it isn't
It gavve the world Hitler ansd Mussolini - now it has given Britain Brexit
As I said - business should never have a say in people's well-being - the fact that it has here sums up the contradictory loyalties of your Government
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Raggytash
Date: 07 May 20 - 11:45 AM

Farage is at it again. Stopped once again by the Police in Dover.

What an arsehole this man is. I hope the Police throw the book at him. He has been spoken to once and had obviously ignored the warning.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Rain Dog
Date: 07 May 20 - 11:46 AM

Jim posted "Somebody else sahring your politics did."

Oh how wrong you are and not for the first time. I do see quite a lot of similarities between you and Iains though.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Rain Dog
Date: 07 May 20 - 11:58 AM

No he was not stopped at Dover. The police went to visit him up north in Kent after complaints were made about his visit, after he had posted his video I imagine.

He seems to find it hard being out of the limelight.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Raggytash
Date: 07 May 20 - 12:09 PM

You are correct Rain Dog, the report says he went to the kent Coast.

Link

Either way he is breaking the rules that the rest of us have to follow.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 May 20 - 12:27 PM

"I do see quite a lot of similarities between you and Iains though."

Not helpful. And not true.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 07 May 20 - 12:46 PM

"I do see quite a lot of similarities between you and Iains though."
Not helpful. And not true.


How can anyone deny what Rain Dog sees?
He may be mistaken in what he believes he sees, but no one can fairly state that his comment is not true!


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 May 20 - 12:52 PM

"I do see quite a lot of similarities between you and Iains though."
I am trying to avoid that level of insulting - can I request you do
I see you vaguely a government-status quo supporter who regards a suggestion of change as a call to revolution, or at least "a one party system"
If I made a mistake, I apologise - If you can mistake my political position -as you continue to do, than I hope I can be forgiven for mistaking yours
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 May 20 - 01:12 PM

Incidentally - I was referring to Iainls political philosophy - certainl not his behaviour
He stands unique on that front
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Iains
Date: 07 May 20 - 01:52 PM

There is a risk of 'populism versus the government' over the next few days. According to live feed:
I think not!
The media thrive on gotcha moments and sniping at the government of the day.
The worldometer website clearly shows the UK is atypical in the graphs displayed compared to Spain for example. Spain shows a pronounced peak in both infections and deaths, thus providing a clear timeline for relaxation of lockdown measures.   The curves for the UK are less pronounced and thus give   no clear timeline yet for relaxation measures. Why this atypical behaviour is shown is unknown, but I suspect having heathrow as the busiest hub in europe may well have a role to play.
The mail claims the UK has had the most deaths in Europe.This is announced with no qualification.
However in terms of deaths per million of population(a much safer metric, despite being not directly comparable) Spain, Italy annd Belgium show higher figures. Typical mainstream   scaremongering with no basis in reality.
UK 66.5 million   Deaths 30,615 451/million
Italy 60.36million   Death29,998 485/million


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Iains
Date: 07 May 20 - 02:50 PM

and in other news
Has Germany just blown up the Eurozone?
While the Constitutional Court found that the ECB’s regular QE activity (e.g. the Public Sector Purchasing Programme) does not contravene Article 123 of the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union, the verdict specifies the necessary conditions that the PSPP satisfies. The implication is that the Pandemic Emergency Purchasing Programme does not satisfy them.

In other words, even the minor concession made to the vulnerable members of the Eurozone is now under threat. As for Eurobonds, forget it! They’re not happening. Not now, not ever.
https://unherd.com/thepost/has-germany-just-blown-up-the-eurozone/
I wonder how   they will stick    a bandaid on this little contretemps?
https://www.ft.com/content/db720dde-19e8-4e9c-bbfb-b4d48db71a6c

        Please use the sharing tools found via the share button at the top or side of articles. Copying articles to share with others is a breach of FT.com T&Cs and Copyright Policy. Email licensing@ft.com to buy additional rights. Subscribers may share up to 10 or 20 articles per month using the gift article service. More information can be found at https://www.ft.com/tour.
        https://www.ft.com/content/db720dde-19e8-4e9c-bbfb-b4d48db71a6c

        The decision has the potential to unleash a constitutional crisis in the EU’s biggest member state and with it the entire eurozone. It raises questions about the ECB’s sacrosanct independence and the credibility of the rulings of the EU’s highest court in Luxembourg.
What a can of worms!


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Iains
Date: 07 May 20 - 02:52 PM

That   was sent before   I had finished editing and previewing.
My   apologies. I   thought I had ticked the preview


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 May 20 - 02:59 PM

Just opened my regular ad from the Israeli Labour paper Haaretz covering the antics of the wanker in the White-House

Jews Control Chinese Labs That Created Coronavirus': White Supremacists’ Dangerous New Conspiracy Theory

Wonder if Israel will push on with their plans to name the new Jerusalem railway station after him !!
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 May 20 - 03:09 PM

The Horses's Mouth admission without the lethal political bullshit

https://www.marketwatch.com/story/uk-office-for-national-statistics-says-death-toll-has-climbed-above-32000-to-mark-worst-in-europe-ahead-of-italy-2020-05-05
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Iains
Date: 07 May 20 - 04:47 PM

The worst figures in Europe are actually from Belgium with a   death rate of 726 per million of population. A crude death rate of a country unqualified by population numbers is   meaningless, even more so   when death statistics are   gathered in different ways with varying accuracy country   to country. Direct comparisons are not possible.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: DMcG
Date: 08 May 20 - 02:59 AM


There is a risk of 'populism versus the government' over the next few days. According to live feed:
I think not!
(then a whole bunch of stuff about papers attacking governments, death rates and so on)


That is not what I was talking about. What I was referring to was that the popular press has been implying a significant relaxation of lockdown was imminent and so popular opinion might decide that they could breach the rules early. The government is fighting hard (Thursday night) to recover the position and say the lockdown must continue, after all the tabloids on Wednesday proclaimed Monday might the day we are somehow freed. Not only are the government apparently concerned a lot of the population could in effect defy the government rules, you are getting similar expressions of concern from the police.

The papers on Friday seem to be more sober, and fortunately seem to have dropped this potentially damaging - even fatal - line about relaxing the rules.   The Prime Minister has still created a problem for himself on Sunday when he said at Wednesday's PMQ there may be some relaxation on Sunday, and the police are still indicating they are worried about what that might do to the following weekend, but I think since the press have cut back on the promotion, the risk of widespread rule-breaking is reduced.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 May 20 - 04:14 AM

While people continue to die the Government and its supporters quibble over whether the figures are the worst or second worst in Europe and whether the admitted "worst" means numbers or percentages"
Nice to know our futures are in safe, responsible hands
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Iains
Date: 08 May 20 - 04:44 AM

You are the one first making an issue of numbers. Date: 07 May 20 - 03:09 PM
I merely point out that giving raw figures without any context is not only misleading, but wrong. There is no way to stop the virus, merely to attempt to control the rate of spread. As a swedish professor states: by the time the dust has settled the mortality rates are liable to be similar throughoout Europe.
It is also important to point out that lockdown has done nothing to help the most vulnerable in care homes. Not just in the UK but Ireland, France, Spain and likely all other countries when the final analysis is done.
By emptying hospital beds and mothballing nightingale hospitals, where did all these elderly people go? and how thorough was the testing regime?
Was the horrific care home death toll the fault of government, the NHS, or society? We employ "experts" - what went wrong?


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 08 May 20 - 05:20 AM

As ever, James O’Brien setting out the truth about the Johnson administration’s cluelessness over how to handle the pandemic (despite there being plenty of clues from China, New Zealand, Spain, Italy, South Korea, etc.) and their obsession with ‘public approval ratings’ (rather like Trump), culminating in the briefing of their tame ‘newspapers’ {spit} in order for them to run what amounts to an unofficial opinion-poll on what to do next...

https://www.lbc.co.uk/radio/presenters/james-obrien/coruscating-monologue-uk-response-coronavirus/


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 May 20 - 05:25 AM

The numbers are important - defending them is political posturing and highly dangerous - it encourages complacency
You merely defended a shitty Government rather than pointing out the dangerously high figures - as you do
The goverment has fucked up


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Iains
Date: 08 May 20 - 05:44 AM

https://www.euronews.com/2020/04/17/coronavirus-care-homes-could-be-where-over-half-of-europe-s-covid-19-deaths-occur-says-new


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 May 20 - 05:56 AM

RA report of the effects of Populism from te organisation set up to monitor freedom end democracy in Europe has reported that Hungary is no longer a democratic Country since populism put Orban in the driving seat and Poland is heading in the same direction
Things really have got to change
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 08 May 20 - 06:06 AM

Don't forget that with the exception of Kier Starmer, whom I have a lot of time for, is totally inefective, completely and totally ineffective!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 May 20 - 06:09 AM

" is totally inefective, completely and totally ineffective"
Good tio hear
He's a Tory in mufti - no wonder you admire him Bozo - that confirms what he is
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 08 May 20 - 06:16 AM

Interesting points made by Paul Lewis on his Twitter Feed, suggesting that a cull of the sick and elderly in order to benefit the insurance and pensions industry could have been one of the driving forces behind the government’s ‘herd-immunity’ and ‘take it on the chin’ bollix during the early part of the Covid-19 pandemic in the UK.

It’s occurred to me more than once that, knowing this government’s predilection for taking care of the welfare of the wealthy and big business, rather than that of the proles, this may very well be at the core of their thinking and lack of timely, positive action.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 08 May 20 - 06:44 AM

Re VE Day, my poem, from WalkaboutsVerse, with photos, "Remember Them?"


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Raggytash
Date: 08 May 20 - 07:59 AM

"Don't forget that with the exception of Kier Starmer, whom I have a lot of time for, is totally inefective, completely and totally ineffective!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"

Who or what is "inefective" (???) Bonzo, you don't actually say.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 May 20 - 08:09 AM

Don't play with your food Rag - what have you been told :-)
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Raggytash
Date: 08 May 20 - 08:20 AM

Put your own house in order first Jim.

YOU are the worst offender in this regard by a country mile. Don't tell me who I can or cannot respond to until such times as you follow your own "advice"


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Iains
Date: 08 May 20 - 08:42 AM

Interesting points made by Paul Lewis on his Twitter Feed, suggesting that a cull of the sick and elderly in order to benefit the insurance and pensions industry could have been one of the driving forces behind the government’s ‘herd-immunity’ and ‘take it on the chin’ bollix during the early part of the Covid-19 pandemic in the UK.

It’s occurred to me more than once that, knowing this government’s predilection for taking care of the welfare of the wealthy and big business, rather than that of the proles, this may very well be at the core of their thinking and lack of timely, positive action.

So backwoodsman by repeating a twitter feed you are accusing the   UK   government of deliberately exposing care home inhabitants to risk and thereby murdering them. Rather a ridiculous assertion as that is the demographic that most heavily supports the Tories,   Was it the tories causing the excessive care home deaths documented in other countries as well?
   
Deliberate cull is a slur that really needs a little more to back it up. For anyone not on the left such posts would be construed as deliberate trolling. That is why you posted such a   totally unfounded reckless accusation.
However   had   you posted:Last week, Keir Starmer was forced to admonish Diane Abbott and Bell Ribeiro-Addy for taking part in a Zoom chat with a number of notorious Labour antisemites, including Jackie Walker and Tony Greenstein. His warning clearly made no difference as just a day later Abbott and Ribeiro-Addy – who this time was hosting – held a Zoom festival sharing a platform with notorious Anti-Zionist Chris Williamson supporter Lindsey German. This time the pair were joined by Jeremy Corbyn and Apsana Begum…
That is    well documented   and true. Keir Starmer passed up the opportunity to act the first time Abbott and Ribeiro-Addy shared an online platform with antisemites, will he assert his authority this time?


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 May 20 - 08:50 AM

"Put your own house in order first Jim."
It was a joke rag - couldn't you tell
I don't tell others who to post to - nobody should
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Raggytash
Date: 08 May 20 - 09:20 AM

The government has been widely criticised for their poor response to the Corona Virus.

They appear to have learnt little from the advice they have received from the scientific community and now they are seeking to limit the damage to themselves from that inaction.



Inaction


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Barb'ry
Date: 08 May 20 - 10:10 AM


Bonzo, if someone, somewhere but not me, were to say, "right wing, gold medal goose stepping droolers..." wherever in social media those people may be it would be bound to upset someone, somewhere and could cause unwanted and vociferous attention. This, in turn, could in some circles be called trolling, which, as you know is forbidden on this place on social media. Please desist.
Anyone of a different political persuasion making similar comments that may be considered trolling, should also desist.
Thanking you all
b


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 May 20 - 10:26 AM

HERE
Jim Cattoll


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 08 May 20 - 11:42 AM

There he goes again, insults then says it's a joke!!


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 May 20 - 11:51 AM

The reason this Tory government is culpable apropos of care homes ("culpable" being tantamount to causing many hundreds of unnecessary deaths) is that they allowed the country to enter this pandemic with nothing like sufficient PPE resources. What resources were available were generally diverted away from care homes into hospitals. On the day that two nurses fully clad in PPE were tending every minute of the day to Boris Johnson in hospital, care workers and care home residents all over the country were being relentlessly exposed to infection. OK for some, eh? The Tories have been in charge for ten years. They ignored Exercise Cygnus in 2016 which had modelled a pandemic and shudderingly accurately predicted a terrifying shortfall in NHS resources. Not only did they not act on it, they didn't exactly make the findings public. So I'm holding this Tory government one hundred percent to blame for the disaster in so many care homes. Since 2016 they've had their eye off the ball, pursuing instead a stupid brexit strategy.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Iains
Date: 08 May 20 - 01:05 PM

If what you say is true care home deaths in the UK would be anomalously high compared to the rest of   Europe. This is demonstrably untrue.

https://www.marketwatch.com/story/coronavirus-was-devastating-europes-nursing-homes-well-before-the-us-here-are-the-lessons-they
and

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-52399869
This   would suggest you are posting   provocatve fake   news


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 May 20 - 02:23 PM

Telling us that other countries are just as bad is no excuse. And there is nothing fake about the factual content of my post. You are trolling again.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 May 20 - 02:28 PM

What a god-awfule competition to become involved in - Engliish deaths v Irish deaths
THESE ARE THE STATISTICS THAT MATTER, espacilailly to relatives who have someone in such homes to worry about
OR THESE
AND THIS HORRIFIC FACT
Jim Caaarroll


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 08 May 20 - 02:57 PM

Telling us that other countries are just as bad is no excuse. And there is nothing fake about the factual content of my post.

You mean like: The reason this Tory government is culpable apropos of care homes ("culpable" being tantamount to causing many hundreds of unnecessary deaths)
Definitely untrue! The deaths are 'caused' by the virus. The government may not have prevented them, but that is not the same as 'causing' them.
Based on the comparison with other countries (Valid, even if you dislike any facts posted by Iains), it is uncertain whether earlier intervention in care homes (or more PPE) would have greatly reduced the casualty numbers.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Raggytash
Date: 08 May 20 - 03:16 PM

"it is uncertain whether earlier intervention in care homes (or more PPE) would have greatly reduced the casualty numbers."

Sorry Nigel this statement is abject nonsense.

Had the PPE required been available, had the information regarding the virus been available earlier, if the carers had more reliable information, if the government had done more to prevent the spread of the virus of course the casualty numbers would have been lower.

I think you are trying to excuse the inexcusable.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 08 May 20 - 03:51 PM

There is a difference between: "it is uncertain whether earlier intervention in care homes (or more PPE) would have greatly reduced the casualty numbers."

And: "the casualty numbers would have been lower."

I think you are trying to excuse the inexcusable.

I am not trying to excuse anything. Just pointing out the arrant nonsense posted by Steve Shaw, and presumably accepted, without question, by those who feel that, whatever they do, the government cannot be doing the right thing.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Iains
Date: 08 May 20 - 03:55 PM

I merely point out the facts. Others like to revel in the blame game.
Care homes are filled with people in need of care. This is a no brainer.
That they are vulnerable is a given.
From the nursing times:(14 August, 2017)
"Care home residents share air, space, food and equipment, so they also share organisms that can easily cause infection outbreaks, such as viruses and bacteria. They are also more prone and vulnerable to infections, which can lead to death."
The most common types of disease outbreaks in care homes are outbreaks of respiratory infections (often caused by influenza viruses), and gastrointestinal infections (often caused by noroviruses) (Utsumi et al, 2010; Strausbaugh et al, 2003). Some organisms can cause more than one type of infection; for example, Streptococcus pyogenes and multi-drug-resistant organisms (MDROs) such as meticillin-resistant Staphylococcus aureus (MRSA) can cause skin, urinary tract, and bloodstream infections (Steer et al, 2012; Utsumi et al, 2012).
"
In a literature review of 206 infection outbreaks in care facilities for older people, the respiratory tract was involved in 45% of outbreaks, the gastrointestinal tract in 36%, the skin in 7% and the eyes in 2%. Only four organisms – influenza virus, norovirus, salmonella and S pyogenes – made up more than 50% of all infectious agents involved (Utsumi et al, 2012)."
Seems clear to me the experts knew Covid-19 could be a severe problem based on previous knowledge. More than a whiff of incompetance in my book. Though according to your own jaundiced view it is a case of paying peanuts and getting monkeys. though of course you rather implied it rather than coming straight out and saying it. Hardly PC in my book.
It doesn't help that the staff are just about the lowest-paid in the land, receive only the most basic training and are daily confronted with some tasks that many of us would find unpleasant. Mr Shaw
and Mr Carroll
What Seve said about overworked, underpaid and unappreciated care-home workers - with knobs on


Infection in care homes has been a well-recognised problem for years. It is the professionals should have been on the ball, why not place blame where blame is due. The NHS is one of the largest employers in the world, presumably they have one or two experts on the payroll.. They are the body that took their eye off the ball, why keeping trying to shove blame on the government?

Some of these comments are in really bad taste, Iain, namely the Shipman/Liverpool pathway comments. I have removed this part of your post.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 May 20 - 04:24 PM

This is not a trolling statement, Nigel, but a simple request: don't say such damn stupid things. Over and out with you, so say what you like.

The facts are really simple. The government had ignored the findings of the 2016 Cygnus exercise, which clearly found that that the NHS would be appallingly unfit for purpose in any future epidemic. The upshot was that when this pandemic struck there was a serious shortage of the protective equipment THAT THE GOVERNMENT HAD BEEN AMPLY WARNED ABOUT AND WHICH THEY HAD DONE NOTHING IN ALMOST FOUR YEARS TO RECTIFY. The Tories, along with their LibDem lackeys for part of the time, have been in charge for TEN YEARS. So yes, I'm blaming the Tories. Not the care homes, who have struggled without the kit that has been diverted to hospitals. That you can blame "the professionals" in care homes is shameful. My mum is in a care home near me. They have struggled like mad, successfully, to keep Coronavirus out. I haven't seen my mum for two months. Large numbers of their staff have been forced to self-isolate and lots of them are working extra shifts in a situation in which they live in fear, both of taking the bug back to their families or of importing it into the home. The two managers are the sweetest people in the world and have been tearing their hair out to keep the place afloat. Most of the rest of the staff are on the minimum wage. Several are women who have been unable to go back to their own countries because of the lockdown. One lovely girl from Romania should have been home six weeks ago to get married. She's still here, doing FaceTime with me and my mum, and I've never caught her without a smile on her face.

"Infection in care homes has been a well-recognised problem for years. It is the professionals should have been on the ball, why not place blame where blame is due."

Jesus Christ. The things you haven't a bloody CLUE about...


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Donuel
Date: 08 May 20 - 04:40 PM

Arrant nonsense is the white noise of social media Nigel.
It is the chaos of crashing waves or the roars of waterfalls.
Some find it soothing to create their own.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Donuel
Date: 08 May 20 - 05:13 PM

The realistic number of those infected in the US is somewhere between a minimum of 10 million and a maximum of unknown.

The stated infected numbers are arrant nonsense that some believe calms the public.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 08 May 20 - 05:31 PM

Wrong thread Don?


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: DMcG
Date: 08 May 20 - 06:32 PM

For me, when someone says

"it is uncertain whether earlier intervention in care homes (or more PPE) would have greatly reduced the casualty numbers"

it is the word 'greatly' that leaps out. What is that supposed to mean? I imagine a conversation saying

"Sir, if we can provide more PPE we can cut the casualties by 5%"
"Only 5%? Not worth doing then."

Why insist on 'greatly reducing'?


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 May 20 - 06:39 PM

"One of the things Ireland is streets ahead on is the respect shown for the elderly"

This post has been partly deleted because in drawing my attention to an offensive post, it repeated the words used.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: DMcG
Date: 09 May 20 - 03:13 AM

It is rumoured that one of the changes on Sunday is that arrivals from overseas will have to self isolate on arrival. They will do this apparently by filling in a form giving the address at which they will be self isolating.

On the 'every little helps' principle, this is a step in the right direction, and should be welcomed as such. But it is a bit tiny, is it not? Are we going to have people visiting these addresses to check up whether people are self isolating? Just because you are there are the moment of such an inspection says little about whether you have been there the rest of the time.   Telephoning them to check will obviously not work unless it is a fixed line. (Although the technology exists to check where a mobile is, it is not as straightforward as the films and TV shows suggest, not least because the information needed is distributed across several private companies.) And I could imagine diplomatic problems arising from it if someone is found to be breaking self isolation.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 May 20 - 03:15 AM

THe care home situation in Ireland is admittedly bad, but nowhere near as bad as Ireland, long admitted to and being worked on - Ireland is a poor country thanks to the Bankers and never has been able to afford a national Health Service, but in general, the medacal facilities are second to none
Even the richest nations have not been able to cope in this situation
In the US, they check your wallet before they check your pulse - if you can't afford treatment you die - simple as that
Britain - among the wealthiest nation in te world has watched as the National Health Service - set up by Labour and opposed by the Tories - has been run to a hand-to-mouth situation with nursing sytaff being overworked and paid a pittance - nurses falling asleep at work and going home worrying how to feed their families (if they can afford them) doesn't happen here
Add the fact the the British National Health Service would have long ground to a halt if it hadn't been for the Irish and despised immigrant medical staff hadn't been prepared to put up with these appalling conditions, (not to mention the ant- Irish, anti-black racism they had to put up with)
I know from family experience how badly Irish nurses were paid and sometimes treated - two of my aunts suffered the NHS ordeal as dedicated nurses

The despicable comparing of the Irish to Britain's own worst mass murderer is pretty typical of Britain's present racism problem that Brexit has helped to generate - I couldn't be more grateful for the example - the real "Doctor Shipman" is the scumbag non--elected main-man who proposed a prioritising a "survival of the fittest" treatment scheme
Let's move away from this cess pit level eh ?

A reminder of the real situation in the UK
Its report comes amid calls for accurate data on virus-linked deaths.
Only 217 such care home deaths have been officially recorded in England and Wales up to 3 April.

That was the situation in 19th April - the Government only admitted there WAS a problem a couple of days ago, when Johnson was forced to apologise and has yet to begin tackling it
Given the discrepency between the reported between reported and actual figures, I wonder if those understanding percentages better than I do (not hard to find) could work out the present ACTUAL FIGURES OF DEATH HOMES CARES RATHER THAN THE GOVERNMENT HYPED-UP ONES
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 May 20 - 03:16 AM

"not only trolling but also in extremely bad taste."
And downright racist
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 May 20 - 05:48 AM

The ineptitude which has led to the leaks about what will happen on Monday apropos of relaxing the lockdown is legendary. "Mixed messages" doesn't even begin to cut it. I'd welcome garden centres reopening. It's an outrageous anomaly that pokey little gardening corners in supermarkets (thinking of the Morrisons and B&M that I know), in which social distancing is well-nigh impossible, can sell what they like while thousands of tons of young plants are rotting away in well-organised and spacious garden centres.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 May 20 - 07:05 AM

An article in yesterday's Guardian ('Harvesting' is a terrible word – but it's what has happened in Britain's care homes by Richard Coker) gives the lie to the claims, oft repeated here, that the government is not to blame for the dreadful death toll in care homes. The non-joined-up policies since the start of the outbreak, starting with bodged thinking on herd immunity, then no testing or contact tracing in care homes, then PPE diverted away from care homes, has led to a situation now out of control, and in which anything now done will be too little, too late. And before anyone thinks of dissing the article as typical Guardian leftie-peftie piffle, so often the kneejerk reaction here, they'd be well advised to investigate just briefly how well-qualified Professor Coker is to speak on this.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Rain Dog
Date: 09 May 20 - 07:22 AM

Well it does look like garden centres will be opening this week.

I agree that talk of 'relaxing' the lockdown has not and does not help the situation at all. The media do not help in this situation as they have been asking when is the lockdown going to be relaxed from very early on. The government should say they are looking at it and will make an announcement when the time is right, rather than drop hints early on. The way they announced the closure of pubs was a good way of doing it.

With regards to relaxing the lockdown, can any of you UK posters tell me if you have seen any masks for sale in local shops? I have not seen any on my shopping trips.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 May 20 - 08:30 AM

Whatever the cause, it seems the UK will be high on the list of the hardest hit countries economically, if the depressing BBC news report is anything to go by
The Air industry is talking about mass closures and bankruptcy if the 14 day quarantine for incomers is enforced
Catering businesses interviewed say they can't possibly survive enforced social distancing - it will more than half reduce custom in many places
Percentages aside,
It seems to me, as many countries are now returning to normal or talking about it, the fact that Britain is moving in the opposite direction is an indication that either it was hit harder than elsewhere or someone at the wheel wasn't looking where they were going
If it hadn't been for 'The Pond, Britain and the U.S. would have been in a massive pile-up
All very depressing
Why the **** did it have to be the ***** garden centres that survived :-)
Must get strimming
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: DMcG
Date: 09 May 20 - 09:26 AM

What I was referring to was that the popular press has been implying a significant relaxation of lockdown was imminent and so popular opinion might decide that they could breach the rules early.

For what it is worth, a friend lives in a tower block, overlooking a nearby shore. She is reporting the area is teeming with people.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 May 20 - 09:40 AM

There's been an increase in road traffic in north Cornwall from next to nothing six weeks ago to near-normal now.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: DMcG
Date: 09 May 20 - 10:09 AM

"Mixed messages" doesn't even begin to cut it.

There seems to be some sections of the press and media that want to draw parallels between the virus and the last war, and looking at the PM's response to Keir Starmer saying we want to get 'these measures' (the context explains what they are) under way:


We will want, if we possibly can, to get going with some of these measures on Monday


... which led to all the tabloid 'Happy Monday' stuff.

So here is a wartime slogan to practice:

CARELESS TALK COSTS LIVES


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Iains
Date: 09 May 20 - 10:47 AM

THe care home situation in Ireland is admittedly bad, but nowhere near as bad as Ireland, long admitted to and being worked on - Ireland is a poor country thanks to the Bankers and never has been able to afford a national Health Service, but in general, the medacal facilities are second to none
Rubbish
Ireland a poor coutry You're avin a laugh! In terms of GDP Ireland ranks no 18 in the EU. In terms of GDP per capita, Ireland is ranked as one of the wealthiest countries in the OECD and the EU-27, at 4th in the OECD-28 rankings. They could well afford a NHS if the will was there.
Ireland ranks no   6 in the world for per capita GDP.
If you want to know what poor is try visiting a few Subsaharan countries, or somewhere like the Yemen. Until you have seen grinding poverty firsthand you have no idea


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 May 20 - 11:17 AM

2Ireland a poor coutry You're avin a laugh! "
In terms of grown, industry and land usage Ireland is a poor country - the Brits made sure of that when they partitioned Ireland and kept the most arable land and most industrialised counties under British rule leaving "a country where there is not enough water to drown a man, wood enough to hang one, nor earth enough to bury him."
The greatest legacy they left was continual emigration in serch of work - The Celtic Tiger was a sort burst which with the help of EU membership began to turn Ireland;'s fortunes in the right direction - but International bankers, vulture capitalism
Ireland is typical of countries that started out hopefully but fell into bad company

I wll know your view of Ireland - it is typical of what has cuased many Irish fiends from posting to this forum - please don't post these views with your distorted figures to me again to me again - I've had enough of such company
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 May 20 - 11:18 AM

Bet you loved my "fiends" typo - too long in the sun today
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Iains
Date: 09 May 20 - 12:23 PM

By all internationally accepted metrics Ireland   is a rich country.   Constant denial does not gain credibility.

please don't post these views with your distorted figures to me again to me again - I've had enough of such company
When in a hole tis best to stop digging.
https://www.worldometers.info/gdp/gdp-per-capita/


https://worldpopulationreview.com/countries/richest-countries-in-the-world/
https://worldpopulationreview.com/countries/richest-countries-in-the-world/
Why not just accept that by continuing this you are just making a fool of yourself?


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Iains
Date: 09 May 20 - 12:48 PM

And before anyone thinks of dissing the article as typical Guardian leftie-peftie piffle, so often the kneejerk reaction here,
It is an opinion piece in the gruniard ='nuff said!

Interesting article from a couple of weeks ago:
"Patients transferred into nursing homes from hospitals hit by Covid-19 sparked fatal outbreaks among vulnerable residents, nursing home operators have claimed.

Despite the risks associated with these transfers, the Health Service Executive emptied as many hospital beds as possible in this fashion as it prepared to deal with the pandemic.

Hospital patients were deemed eligible for transfer to care homes even if they were showing symptoms and had been identified as close contacts of others who were Covid-positive.

Did this not happen in the UK? Where was the protest off the healthcare professionals? If government is supposed to involve itself in the minutiae of the health service we can double the frontline staff and cull the backroom pencilpushers. Care to explain why this is not the case? There seems a distinct lack of accountability when the shit hits the fan. Just continual finger pointing at the government.
How lucky we are that Labour lost the election, Corbyn running the show wouldbe the stuff of nightmares.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 May 20 - 01:07 PM

It's not the wealth but who owns it and how it's spent
Britain ranks among the highest YET

AND

The decline in health care in Britain is one of the factors that has led to it being among the forerunners in virus casualties, way in front of Ireland
It's not how much wealth is available but who controls how it is spent
Ireland still has no industial base - before the EU it's road system was a mess
Ireland is a poor country in terms of how the money can be spent and Britain's role in keeping it divided by sectariianism has helped maintain that position
It is significant that both Brexit and this crisis has moved a UNited Ireland several giant strides nearer
Address th position of Britain's murderous role in this criis rather than this racist bullshit
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 May 20 - 01:19 PM

Two more Iains trolling posts in a row.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Iains
Date: 09 May 20 - 01:52 PM

Address th position of Britain's murderous role in this criis rather than this racist bullshit
Jim Carroll

I hope the mods will see fit to delete this anglophobic rubbish


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 May 20 - 02:19 PM

"I hope the mods will see fit to delete this anglophobic rubbish"
Sed the feller who claims British police are corrupt, British courts are biased, the British press comes a poor second to a criminal right wing blogger and the British democratic system is shit if it doesn't follow the orders of an unelectes right-wing scumbag
Yeh -well - we'll hav to think anout that carefully won't wee ?
Please stop driving my Irish friends from posting to this multi-racial forum (supposedly)
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: The Sandman
Date: 09 May 20 - 03:49 PM

Corbyn running the show wouldbe the stuff of nightmares, quote
well johnson has not done very well at all
i think corbyn would have done better


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 09 May 20 - 03:55 PM

Don’t fall for ‘Whataboutery’ of that kind, Dick.
What Corbyn would, wouldn’t, might, might not, have done is utterly irrelevant.
It’s a ploy by the Right-Wing Extremist to divert attention from the failure of this Conservative government.
It isn’t worth the energy it takes to respond to it.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 May 20 - 04:00 PM

Jeremy Corbyn, had he been elected, would have faced exactly the same dilemmas as Johnson, dilemmas created by ten long years of Tory neglect of the NHS and the complacent setting aside of a study that predicted with shuddering accuracy that the NHS would not be fit for purpose in a pandemic. Whether he would have done better is academic. I like to think that he would have been far more honest with the people than this current lying bunch of shysters, and that he would have paid far more attention to care homes, rather than let them rot, as with this incompetent lot.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Iains
Date: 09 May 20 - 05:05 PM

Sed the feller who claims British police are corrupt, British courts are biased, the British press comes a poor second to a criminal right wing blogger and the British democratic system is shit if it doesn't follow the orders of an unelectes right-wing scumbag

Looks like a personal attack accompaied by a pack of lies!


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 09 May 20 - 05:23 PM

Yeah, right. And butter wouldn't melt in your mouth.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 May 20 - 02:49 AM

I have no intention of prolonging this other than to say that, on several occasions some of us have been accused of objecting to Iain's "politics" - while we may not have agreed with them, I don't think anybody can produce any examples of our asking him to be removed because of his views, nor of asking for them to be "deleted" because of the political views expressed
Here we have an example of his appealing for ours to be deleted because he does not agree with them politically
It is not "Anglophobic" to criticise Government policy - on the contrary - it is extremely sinister to represent the actions or the views of politician or Party you may favour, with the British people as a whole with any political party or political leader - neither speaks on behalf of the whole people - ever
I was born at the time when Britain was fighting a war to prevent that argument from engulfing Europe - we all know the results of what the Political leader we were fighting was attempting to achieve - it's been filling our screens all last week
I suggest we move on
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 May 20 - 04:12 AM

"with any political party or political leader"
Sould read; "with the viewss of the British people as a whole" of course
Shouldn't post before seven o'clock
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 May 20 - 06:30 AM

Well, I'm back and it looks like not much has changed.

The government is still getting it wrong and some people are still excusing it or using smoke and mirrors to divert attention. Best we can do is just tell it as it is and let everyone make up their own minds.

Looking forward to finding out how BoJo is going to get the economy working, keep people safe and reduce the death count in care homes. I suppose if he fails it will just be down to negative press, Jeremy Corbyn or antisemitism.

:D


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 May 20 - 07:08 AM

Don't forget the Chinese Dave - Trump has already claimed he has proof that they started it deliberately and had threatened revenge
Even if Jonno wants to clear up the economic mess left after Brexit, he has has to learn the White-House tango - The possibly looming economic crisis underlines that
My bet - it's China wot dunnit !!
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 May 20 - 08:07 AM

The Government has just announced that the language of the appeal to "stay at home" has been changed to "stay alert"
They have been confused of causing confusion - other parties will continue to urge that people stay at home
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Iains
Date: 10 May 20 - 09:34 AM

BBC's Marr stuns Ashworth after blaming Labour for lockdown chaos 'Take responsbility!'
LABOUR has come under criticism for refusing to take some responsibility for the confused messaging around the UK lockdown, as BBC host Andrew Marr pointed at their repeated demands for an exit strategy.

Pretty bad   accusation when it comes from a doyen    of the left like red marr.   I guess the BBC    is finlly realisinng their PARTISAN days are numbered.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 May 20 - 09:49 AM

3 hours from my saying they will blame Jeremy Corbyn to blaming Labour for lockdown chaos. Is this some sort of record? :-)

Funny how Labour is dead and buried one minute and being a major cause of the governments failure the next! You couldn't make this stuff up.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 May 20 - 10:17 AM

"3 hours from my saying they will blame Jeremy Corbyn to blaming Labour for lockdown chaos. Is this some sort of record? :-)"
What did you expect
Of course Corbyn is to blame for not obeying HMV - even though it has been pretty well condemned as it was uttered as being "diversive and confusing" - reported by the media even
Mar has condemned Labour for first pushing for a lockdown plan then refusing to accept Johnson's half-cocked idea without challenge
Good job Johnson didn't suggest that everybody pretend the virus was a all a hoax - as he might well have done from his past performance
Mar may have been a "leftie" in his youth but he now describes that as the "indisgressions of foolish" youth, and took a job at the 'leftie', no doubt'
Daily Express to prove it
Some people would try to make political capital out of a Holocaust
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 May 20 - 10:18 AM

Well the report referred to by the poster at 09.34 AM was from the far-right Daily Express, one of the tabloids miffed by being blamed for propagating the mixed messages that have been coming out lately apropos of relaxing the lockdown, so we can take their gloss on the story with a bucket of salt. Said poster even copied and pasted the headline, neglecting to correct the Express's misspelling of "responsibility." I've watched the clip twice and can see no trace of Ashworth having been "stunned" by Marr's rather circuitous questioning.

And this beauty:

"Pretty bad   accusation when it comes from a doyen    of the left like red marr.   I guess the BBC    is finlly realisinng their PARTISAN days are numbered." [sic]

...is definitely one for the archives! :-)


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: DMcG
Date: 10 May 20 - 10:20 AM

Impressive, isn't it, how happy some people are to compare how they 'imagine' Corbyn would have handled this, while adamantly refusing to compare our leaders with those other leaders in the world who are actually having the same job of handling it as we are. No, you can't compare other countries. The only valid comparison is our imagination.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 May 20 - 10:23 AM

As I've said, Corbyn, had he been elected, would have been confronted by the same problems of a health and social care sector that has been dreadfully neglected by Tories for ten years.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: peteglasgow
Date: 10 May 20 - 10:36 AM

given the markedly different approach and competence of the english and the scottish government. and given that the westminster crew wilfully patronise or ignore the other 3 nations - should this thread be renamed 'english thread, politics and political ?'


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 May 20 - 10:52 AM

You may carve that in stone W.M.
The crisis that has become Northern Ireland seems to have been forgotten in all this
The number of casualties up there has led to the suggestion that the border might be closed to prevent a spread to the Republic

Wouldn't it be good is, instead o an undignifed scramble to find a way to blame the parties who have no voice in what is happening, some of the Tory supporters migh, just might just think for themselves and give us their opinions instead of those journalists they are quite happy to dis if they dare suggest the Government may be wrong
I've always expected more from Stanron and Nigel - the more 'Thinking mans Tory' types that are needed to add a bit of thought to these debates
We already know what Guido thinks (or doesn't) without the blogs
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 10 May 20 - 12:57 PM

An excellent article from Bella Caledonia - “Gaslighting The Virus”.

Although it’s almost a month old, it is no less true now than it was then - indeed, events since 17/4/20 lend even greater authority. No doubt the ‘bend down and take it up the arse from the toffs’ Brigade will be along shortly with their propaganda-induced, in-denial nonsense...


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Iains
Date: 10 May 20 - 01:53 PM

The crisis that has become Northern Ireland seems to have been forgotten in all this
The number of casualties up there has led to the suggestion that the border might be closed to prevent a spread to the Republic


Makes a   good    headline   but   sadly it is   utter poppycock. Perhaps we should close our border instead.

Northern   Ireland 458   deaths
The republic 1458 deaths


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 10 May 20 - 02:37 PM

Wouldn't it be good is, instead o an undignifed scramble to find a way to blame the parties who have no voice in what is happening, some of the Tory supporters migh, just might just think for themselves and give us their opinions instead of those journalists they are quite happy to dis if they dare suggest the Government may be wrong
I've always expected more from Stanron and Nigel - the more 'Thinking mans Tory' types that are needed to add a bit of thought to these debates


What I think ( and as it doesn't inform policy it makes no real difference) is that Boris is "damned if he does, and damned if he doesn't".
The only thing that will make a real difference to the number of deaths (from the virus) in UK is whether/when a vaccine is produced. Without one, any lockdown only does what we've been told. "Flattens the curve to avoid overwhelming the NHS". Without a vaccine (but with lockdown) the total deaths will be about the same, but will take longer to 'achieve' (couldn't think of a better term, sorry). If this assumption is correct, then if lockdown can be eased earlier (without overpowering the NHS) then it should be to reduce the fact that the lockdown is beggaring the economy.
Over 70s should be treated the same as the general population (except for those in care homes) and allowed to choose the extent to which they are prepared to expose themselves to risk of infection.
If it is true that children are unlikely to catch/suffer from/pass on the virus then it is pointless ruining their education for no gain.
According to many polls, the UK citizens are already 'scared' of taking advantage of any reduction in lockdown (except for the idiots who believe it can never affect them, who do as they please anyway). Any gradual relaxation of lockdown is likely to be made even more gradual due to reticence on the part of the public.
Someone, somewhere, has to take the decisions, and to my mind it may as well be Boris. During WWII it was Churchill who made the ultimate decisions, and that probably led to him being voted out, but that is a price which would have to be paid if it also happens to Boris.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 May 20 - 02:47 PM

I see it's now ok to go to work if you can't work from home but the schools are still out and we are not to use public transport. That should be fine. We can just leave the kids with Nanny and get James to bring the Bentley round...


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 10 May 20 - 02:52 PM

The crisis that has become Northern Ireland seems to have been forgotten in all this
The number of casualties up there has led to the suggestion that the border might be closed to prevent a spread to the Republic

Makes a   good    headline   but   sadly it is   utter poppycock. Perhaps we should close our border instead.

Northern   Ireland 458   deaths
The republic 1458 deaths


C'mon Iains. Be fair the deaths are roughly equal when the relative populations are taken into account:
Northern Ireland 458 deaths/ population 1.8 million
R.O.I. 1458 deaths/ population 4.8 million
NI Deaths per million 254
R.O.I. Deaths per million 303

No massive difference.
But it doesn't support Jim's point either.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 10 May 20 - 02:56 PM

Has the right wing media war on teachers unions kicked off
in preparation for boris's plan for infants schools being forced to reopen,
before sufficient PPE is made available to schools...????????????

Obvious answer - YES...!!!!!!!!!


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 10 May 20 - 02:59 PM

Also..

How many south west seaside and beauty spot locals has boris now condemned to death
by freeing Brummies, Londoners,and other cooped up high risk city dwellers
to drive out for family day trips..

There goes our relatively low death rates...!!!!!!!!!!


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Iains
Date: 10 May 20 - 03:04 PM

Nigel I fully   agree with you. It is said 80%   will catch the virus (Whether true or not is irrelevant) Of those that catch the virus a certain percentage in each country will die.   Only a vaccinne will change this reality and that could be years away. The hospitals have not been swamped, nightingale hospitals have been mothballed.
Logically this means there has been an over reaction and lockdown should be relaxed. It was only meant to protect the vulnerable, not destroy the economy or the foodchain. We have created a monster where people are totally risk averse, a totally ludicrous situation. The statistics determining those most at risk should now be fairly reliable. They are the people that should be shielded, everyone else should get back to work, school and university.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 May 20 - 03:07 PM

""damned if he does, and damned if he doesn't"."
Sorry Nige - that is neither true nor is it relevant
The Government will be judges on it's performance in this case - even Trump knows this as he has played both sides against the middle by blaming everybody when things go wrong and taking credit when they go right
Neither business nor polls can be of the slightest interest here - the former have made it plain that they are prepared to 'take a chance with the people's lives' to offset a slump - try applying that to a wartime situation and see if it holds up
The polls can only be meaningful if those questioned have access to all the information - otherwise they are replying from a position of ignorance

The only people to have any real say has to be the medical experts otherwise other factors kick in - my opinion, of course

"Northern   Ireland 458   deaths
The republic 1458 deaths"
six counties to 28 you mean
Even the DUP has admitted they have been left dangling
As you say, "utter poppycock"
LATEST
CONRADICTIONS AND CONFUSION
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 10 May 20 - 03:08 PM

Has the right wing media war on teachers unions kicked off
in preparation for Boris's plan for infants schools being forced to reopen, before sufficient PPE is made available to schools...????????????
Obvious answer - YES...!!!!!!!!!


As there is not yet a re-start date for schools, it is impossible to know whether PPE will be available when that happens.

From the speech:
In step two – at the earliest by June 1 – after half term – we believe we may be in a position to begin the phased reopening of shops and to get primary pupils back into schools, in stages, beginning with reception, Year 1 and Year 6.

Basic message, don't overreact to what you think you heard.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 May 20 - 03:20 PM

"If it is true that children are unlikely to catch/suffer from/pass on the virus then it is pointless ruining their education for no gain."

Well maybe you think schools are like fairyland, with no crush at the gate at the school run, no teachers, no cleaners, no canteen staff, no classroom assistants, no caretaker or school librarian, no lunchtime supervisors, no school bus drivers...


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 May 20 - 03:23 PM

"It is said 80%   will catch the virus (Whether true or not is irrelevant)"

Archetypal weasel words. Said by who? And if it is true I happen to think it's bloody relevant!


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 10 May 20 - 03:24 PM

Nigel - Reception are the least controllable in terms of social distancing,
[herding cats is a doddle in comparison...]
and amongst the most likely to be bringing and spreading death into classrooms..

The tory far right hate teachers,
maligning them as commie multicultralist brainwashers of British nationalist's children...

This outright prejudice is behind much of far right tory attitudes towards the teaching profession.

There will be much far right vindictive glee at the prospect of teachers & their families
falling ill and dying,
as a result of callous tory govt reopening plans...

The Mail and others will attack and slur teacher's unions trying to protect their members..

You know this to be true...


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 10 May 20 - 03:44 PM

"will attack and smear.."

effin google voice recognition, and small phone screens...


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 10 May 20 - 03:47 PM

Looking on the bright side - woefully missing here!!!, there does seem to be a slight upward trend in recoveries.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 10 May 20 - 03:56 PM

Bonz - we all gotta keep our fingers crossed on that...

Over 30,000 dead..

Intensive Care Doctors surely must have learnt something more positive by now,
from that cruel trial and error experience...


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 10 May 20 - 04:21 PM

I am fully aware of the dedication of ICU medical teams. My wife was in the ICU at ST George's Tooting, for some time after surgery for a subdural haematoma, and a nurse was by her bedside 24/7.

I think it will be trial and error for some time to come yet, until a vaccine is available.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Iains
Date: 10 May 20 - 04:53 PM

"Northern   Ireland 458   deaths
The republic 1458 deaths"
six counties to 28 you mean

No!
Northern Ireland population 1.882 million
Republic population 4.904 million.

2.6 times the population in the south
3.1 times the death rate.
you are not very good at this are you? It is always best to compare apples with apples. Introducing oranges is but a distraction to try to mask that the argument is lost.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 May 20 - 05:39 PM

I thought some new rules had been brought in during my absence. I don't see much evidence of them being effective as yet.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: DMcG
Date: 10 May 20 - 05:41 PM

But he didn't say 81% would get it, as I read that quotation. He said In the (unlikely) absence of any control measures ... In such scenarios, given an estimatedR0of 2.4, we predict 81% ...

So 81% if the R0 cannot be brought down by control measures. That is quite a different thing to saying 81% will get it.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: DMcG
Date: 10 May 20 - 05:52 PM

Oh, and why has 'protect the NHS' been dropped from the slogans, I wonder?


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: DMcG
Date: 11 May 20 - 02:21 AM

I had a fairly long ramble on that Andrew Marr comment but decided expressing what I meant would be far too long, so I will stick to the heart of the point.

In Parliament today, under the 'cross examination' of the paper by Keir Starmer, Boris Johnson is likely to make statements that dwarf the confusion of last night's little chat and accelerate the death rate. We will know in something between two and three weeks. If the death rate has risen substantially by then, it will be due to the decisions and statements on these two days. They will not be due to Starmer's interrogation, even though the statements Boris makes will be in direct response to those questions.

The rate will inevitably rise somewhat under any relaxation of lockdown. So let us set an arbitrary definition of 'substantial': I would regard to 33% more than yesterday's number of deaths (465 + 33%) as substantial.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 May 20 - 02:55 AM

I watched with horror as Jonson's poison chalice of total confusion to the British people was reflected in the interviews that followed - "We don't know where we stand now" was the message that came bounding back loud and clear
The situation has been ade even worse by the fact that it is to be 'clarified' (if that's the word) in stages throughout the week rather than being given in one clear, understandable message
The interviews with the representatives from Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland gave a cler picture of a fragmented 'Disunited' Kingdom - at a time we are told we should - "All pull together" - they made it qite clear they will plough their own individual furrows.
Brexit began the break-up of the U.K. - the pandemic has just delivered the coup-de-grace
Criminal insanity

"Troll posts are still not being moderated."
I think a little leeway is called for here Steve - when someone finds themselves bereft of rational argument a little personal abuse is to be expected with a little mask-slipping
Leave him to dig
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 11 May 20 - 03:07 AM

Troll posts need no moderation if those being trolled ignore them.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Iains
Date: 11 May 20 - 03:50 AM

and another expert:
Epidemiologist Professor Johan Giesecke writes in The Lancet…

“… facts have led me to the following conclusions. Everyone will be exposed to severe acute respiratory syndrome coronavirus 2, and most people will become infected. COVID-19 is spreading like wildfire in all countries, but we do not see it—it almost always spreads from younger people with no or weak symptoms to other people who will also have mild symptoms. This is the real pandemic, but it goes on beneath the surface, and is probably at its peak now in many European countries. There is very little we can do to prevent this spread: a lockdown might delay severe cases for a while, but once restrictions are eased, cases will reappear. I expect that when we count the number of deaths from COVID-19 in each country in 1 year from now, the figures will be similar, regardless of measures taken.”


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 May 20 - 04:12 AM

Summary of government advice from yesterday

Hold a chicken in the air
Stick a deckchair up your nose
Fly a jumbo jet
And then bury all your clothes


Spitting image, where are you when we need you?

Mind you. I'm not sure if this lot need caracatures.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: DMcG
Date: 11 May 20 - 04:17 AM

That is the second time you have quoted that, Iains. I didn't bother pointing it out last time, but it is not an *article* in the Lancet (which would be subject to detailed assessment before it appeared): it is 'Correspondence', which is not subject to anything like the same scrutiny. In effect, like a letter anywhere, it is the opinion of the author(s), not the result of a formal study. So presenting as 'from the Lancet' is somewhat misleading for the unwary.

He is entitled to his opinion, of course, and as an epidemiologist Professor that opinion carries more weight than yours or mine. But it does not carry more weight than other epidemiologists who disagree.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 May 20 - 04:17 AM

What happens a year from now will depend entirely on what happens now and what happens now depends entirely depends on the advice the people at risk are given
What was apparent from last night's fiasco was the advice being given was not based on medical considerations but on a calculated risk based on economic considerations - the money men in the cabinet won the day
This is very buch like the military decisions taken during WWI where each foot of land was measured in human lives - the only difference being that the calculated strategies have been replaced by yet another leap in the dark - (Brexit was enough for one lifetime, surely)
My sister in Liverpool summed it up perfectly on the phone last night - "we don't know whether it's safe to go out or not"
I hope Dave's Dr Reid get's to head the tribunal which investigate the behaviour of these prickens
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Rain Dog
Date: 11 May 20 - 04:48 AM

Hopefully we will get some clearer idea later this week. I agree that last nights statement was confusing BUT the general drift of relaxing the restrictions with the proviso of implementing them again if need be, is the way to proceed. Other countries are also relaxing their restrictions, so we are not alone in doing so.

Is it safe to go out or not? Well depends on how you judge safety. Personally I am at risk from more cyclists on the pavement and speeding motorists, though there are fewer cars on the road. In the event that I do get knocked down, I will express my disappointment at their not keeping the 2 m safe distance.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: DMcG
Date: 11 May 20 - 04:56 AM

Once again, the government is showing it has not the faintest idea of how infections spread. Raab has been on the radio confusinf things even more this morning and the government has said, by way of clarification:

Mr Raab, asked if someone could meet up with both their parents in a park, told BBC Radio 4: “Well, you could if there's two metres apart.”

But a government source quickly withdrew the statement, telling The Independent: “They can see both parents, but not at the same time – they would have to see them individually.”


Whether an infected person sees two people simultaneously for half an hour, or one after the other for half an hour each (with or without a gap) makes not a jot of difference.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 May 20 - 05:09 AM

"Other countries are also relaxing their restrictions, so we are not alone in doing so."
Ther countries have progressed far further than Britain in the fight and came ou only when that believed to do so - not on the suck-it-ad-see basis this mob has
The first and worst hit, China, is now offering help to others - lets hope they are taken up enough before Trump makes good his promise of revenge
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 May 20 - 05:39 AM

Reports on the radio say that some of those who have opened up are seeing a rise in cases again
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 May 20 - 06:16 AM

We need a list in words of one syllable of things we CAN and CAN'T do. I've never seen such a shambles. I don't want to know what I should or shouldn't do, I don't want any "advice" about it and I don't want any "if possibles." Should be easy enough for a government that made such a radiant triumph of brexit... :-)


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 May 20 - 06:22 AM

Goverment trurn policy lambased in The Times this morning
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/sir-david-spiegelhalter-criticises-ministers-over-failure-to-prioritise-random-covid-19-testing-lzv2ttxsc
The both the statistics and the method of gathring them is described as being flawed and the figures claimed could well be much higher

Apologists - one stop forward - NOW
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: DMcG
Date: 11 May 20 - 06:35 AM

I don't want to know what I should or shouldn't do

Nor does Raab.

Apparently the government advice is you can meet one person. Rabb was asked on the radio if that meant you could meet both parents (assuming social distancing)

Yes, says Raab that's ok.

Immediately the government spokesman clarifies, that you can see both, but not at the same time.

This proves
(1) The message is so confusing even the guy you chose to do almost every daily press conference can't understand it.

(2) The government spokesmen doesn't understand that it does almost nothing whatever to your parents' risk of infection if you see them together for 30 minutes, or one after the other for 30 minutes each even with a gap of a day or two (though the latter might increase your risk if you are out more).


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Iains
Date: 11 May 20 - 07:00 AM

Oh, and why has 'protect the NHS' been dropped from the slogans, I wonder?
Because the NHS came nowhere near getting swamped and Nightingale hospitals have been stood down,
The name of the game was:
protect the vulnerable
reduce the spread of infection to levels that could be dealt with.without strain on the NHS.

Stopping infection in its tracks is not going to happen without a cure. Thus far there is not one.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 May 20 - 07:01 AM

Wanna know about governmental confusion? This is from today's Labour List (hardly a mouthpiece of the rabid left):

Boris Johnson urged those not able to work from home to return to their workplaces “this week”, with the understanding being that this meant Monday. And the government still hasn’t finalised its back-to-work guidance, having only consulted trade unions on an earlier draft that was unfinished and heavily criticised. So much for building consensus, as promised on the PM’s first day back. As Ed Miliband tweeted: “If it was about MPs, chief executives or middle class professionals the PM would never have ordered a return to work at 12 hours notice without guidance or clarity about safety”. Even more confusingly, Dominic Raab has said this morning that people are actually being urged to return on Wednesday, not today. The word ‘omnishambles’ comes to mind.

The PM’s statement did not address the main day-to-day concerns of many. He made clear that sunbathing in the park and playing sports with members of our household would be permitted, but whether we can visit family members while distancing was not mentioned. It has now been clarified that you’re allowed to meet parents in an outdoor space (not a garden) with two metres between you, though Raab and No 10 disagree over whether it is one or two parents that can be met at the same time.

The statement was effectively a declaration of class war. Those who can work from home are more likely to be better paid, and they can protect themselves, whereas those in construction and manufacturing must put their lives on the line so that bosses can protect their profits. I wrote in this email two weeks ago: Labour must help to ensure that workers are protected and prioritised, and that the Tories cannot put private wealth ahead of public health while bringing the UK out of lockdown. But that is exactly what the government is doing.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 May 20 - 07:36 AM

Maybe the guidance for meeting parents could be similar to the guidance given on a sign seen in 1974 in the pub in Broadford, Isle of Skye: "Credit is available for people over 90 as long as they are accompanied by both parents."


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 May 20 - 08:07 AM

Another change of mind
Those in essential (to business) work who can't work from home have been reprieved until Wednesday but have been told to avoid using public transport - glad I don't live in London any more
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 May 20 - 08:27 AM

Londoners, thinking today was when they should go back to work, have piled onto tubes and buses
It will be all their fault when the virus count rises - of course !!!!
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: DMcG
Date: 11 May 20 - 09:11 AM

I am told today's press conference is being replaced by a Question and Answer session. Whether this is just today or the future plan is not clear.

The press conferences did not throw much light on things, certainly after the first few, but they did show some. I hope they will continue to make the slides available to the public, whether they show them at the meeting or not. For all their many limitations, they are the most solid of the information we get.   The figures for transport over the next few days will be informative, for example.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: DMcG
Date: 11 May 20 - 09:14 AM

Government offical document: Our Plan to Rebuild


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 11 May 20 - 02:26 PM

It is not hyperbole to suggest there are tory free market ideologue zealots,
who still have as little regard for the lives of workers
as their Victorian forbears..

They still write us off as cheap disposable and easily replaced navvies and coolies...


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 11 May 20 - 02:32 PM

"forebears"...

If google had voice transcribed as "4 bears"..
at least I'd have noticed that before posting...


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Iains
Date: 12 May 20 - 04:26 AM

What the ruling party supporters think of relaxing lockdown.

https://www.conservativehome.com/thetorydiary/2020/05/our-snap-survey-over-half-of-our-tory-member-panel-backs-johnsons-plan-a-t

Looks like Boris deserves a big pst on the back for getting it just right.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Rain Dog
Date: 12 May 20 - 05:13 AM

I clicked on that link you posted Iains:

Article Not Found
We can't find what you were looking for.

Seems in keeping with the last couple of days communication (or lack of communication) from the government.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 May 20 - 05:15 AM

Looks like they changed their mind pretty quicky ARTICLE NOT FOUND
What else is nodding dog conservative site going to say except Our Fuherer is doing a great job?
Nobody know whether to go to work yesterday or Wednesday - they were told not to use public transport yet the tubes where the usual wheeled sardine cans - it's still not safe to congregate and won't be until the experts say it is and Johnson is allowing employers damand their workers return to work is they see fit
Only a moron with , a chauffeur, no family and a death wish would describe that nonsense as "a great job" - it's lethal madness
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Iains
Date: 12 May 20 - 05:21 AM

Try this:
https://www.conservativehome.com/thetorydiary/2020/05/our-snap-survey-over-half-of-our-tory-member-panel-backs-johnsons-plan-a-third-want-a-sweden-style-looser-lockdown.html
There is no point in winning a war on lockdown and subsequently losing a war on want. The branches on the magic money tree are fast depleting.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Rain Dog
Date: 12 May 20 - 05:34 AM

From your link Iains:

"Yes, the launch of this new phase was very messy. Yes, there are lots of unanswered questions about the policy that should be answered. And, yes, the process of putting it together has been, ConHome hears, shambolic.
But that could doubtless have been said about much of government planning during World War Two. Our sense is that most voters understand that point very well."

Their sense and my sense are not the same. I imagine that even you have to agree that the last couple of days have been handled very badly by the government. They needed to be clearer and they should have been clearer. Let us hope that they get their act together quickly.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: DMcG
Date: 12 May 20 - 05:46 AM

I think there is a problem with the 'blue clicky' mechanism that it cannot cope with very long links; as in Iains example it truncates the link part way through and you get "page not found". Then your reader is left with searching through the site to see if they can find what you meant ... which is what I did.

This was a survey of 1300 or so Conservative party members. Hardly an unbiased sample, as Iains acknowledged. It is not even demonstrably representative of regular party voters, never mind of those who voted Conservative in the last election. So the value of the survey is at best questionable.

There is a lot of talk about driving the decisions to slacken off lockdown based on the R_value. I must admit to a nervousness about the way this is being bandied around.   There is not really any such thing. There is a single R value that is fed into fairly primitive models, but I would hope the actual models are more refined than that and recognise that you need a granular approach. Just thinking about where I live the R-value (for Southampton) is not the same as the R-value (for Hampshire), or the R-value (for South East England) or the R value (for England) or the R-value (for the UK). The R-value for Bude is not the same as for Southampton. The R value for England is not the same as Wales or Scotland.   The R-value for care homes is not the same as for hospitals, or for the general population. Moreover, the closer you are to 1, the more these distinctions matter.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Iains
Date: 12 May 20 - 05:51 AM

Raindog These are unprecedented times. The situation is fluid, hardly surprising everyone is not instantly on the same page. It does not help that the media and opposition are using every trick in the book to muddy the message. Absolutely disgusting behavior that will be given pride of place in the next election campaign. Luckily the electorate is not stupid and Labor will pay for their sins with an even greater drubbing come the next election. The longer lockdown goes on the greater the longterm damage to the economy. Be