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Will folk clubs survive

GUEST,Johnny J 09 Apr 20 - 04:59 PM
GUEST,akenaton 09 Apr 20 - 05:10 PM
GUEST,kenny 09 Apr 20 - 05:31 PM
GUEST,Observer 09 Apr 20 - 07:34 PM
GUEST,Malcolm Storey 09 Apr 20 - 09:37 PM
r.padgett 10 Apr 20 - 02:44 AM
Jim Carroll 10 Apr 20 - 03:28 AM
Jim Carroll 10 Apr 20 - 03:34 AM
The Sandman 10 Apr 20 - 03:41 AM
Dave the Gnome 10 Apr 20 - 04:56 AM
Jack Campin 10 Apr 20 - 05:17 AM
Jim Carroll 10 Apr 20 - 05:19 AM
Steve Gardham 10 Apr 20 - 05:58 AM
Vic Smith 10 Apr 20 - 06:13 AM
Steve Gardham 10 Apr 20 - 06:20 AM
r.padgett 10 Apr 20 - 07:00 AM
Jim Carroll 10 Apr 20 - 07:17 AM
GUEST,akenaton 10 Apr 20 - 07:31 AM
Jack Campin 10 Apr 20 - 07:37 AM
Dave the Gnome 10 Apr 20 - 07:51 AM
Johnny J 10 Apr 20 - 08:13 AM
Jim Carroll 10 Apr 20 - 08:21 AM
Jack Campin 10 Apr 20 - 09:47 AM
Steve Gardham 10 Apr 20 - 09:52 AM
Steve Gardham 10 Apr 20 - 09:53 AM
Jim Carroll 10 Apr 20 - 10:19 AM
Jim Carroll 10 Apr 20 - 10:49 AM
Steve Gardham 10 Apr 20 - 11:19 AM
Steve Gardham 10 Apr 20 - 11:21 AM
The Sandman 10 Apr 20 - 11:43 AM
Jim Carroll 10 Apr 20 - 12:09 PM
Jim Carroll 10 Apr 20 - 12:53 PM
Joe G 10 Apr 20 - 12:58 PM
Steve Gardham 10 Apr 20 - 02:40 PM
Jim Carroll 10 Apr 20 - 02:48 PM
Steve Gardham 10 Apr 20 - 02:55 PM
The Sandman 10 Apr 20 - 03:26 PM
The Sandman 10 Apr 20 - 03:35 PM
Dave Sutherland 10 Apr 20 - 03:37 PM
Joe G 10 Apr 20 - 03:43 PM
The Sandman 10 Apr 20 - 03:49 PM
GUEST,Joe G 10 Apr 20 - 03:52 PM
Steve Gardham 10 Apr 20 - 03:57 PM
GUEST 10 Apr 20 - 03:59 PM
Steve Gardham 10 Apr 20 - 04:09 PM
Joe G 10 Apr 20 - 04:15 PM
The Sandman 10 Apr 20 - 04:19 PM
Joe G 10 Apr 20 - 04:43 PM
GUEST,Observer 10 Apr 20 - 07:50 PM
Jack Campin 10 Apr 20 - 08:03 PM
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Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: GUEST,Johnny J
Date: 09 Apr 20 - 04:59 PM

If I recall, that was an eighties TV progamme. "Fiddles, whistles and 'a'" for The BBC.
Filmed in The Pleasance but not connected with any of the local clubs. I went to a couple of the shows myself.


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Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: GUEST,akenaton
Date: 09 Apr 20 - 05:10 PM

Could be right John, as June did "Flash Company" and "Gamekeepers" Martin did "First Cut" and Andy sang "Golden Golden" with SW.
BTW I agree with your remarks regarding the Scottish folk scene I see nothing insulting in anything you have ever written here or elsewhere.


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Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: GUEST,kenny
Date: 09 Apr 20 - 05:31 PM

Where do you get "6 years" from, Jim ? I know it's "Wikipedia", but :
"The Corries were a Scottish folk group that emerged from the Scottish folk revival of the early 1960s. The group was a trio from their formation until 1966 when founder Bill Smith left the band but Roy Williamson and Ronnie Browne continued as a duo until Williamson's death in 1990".
There are several clips from "Fiddles & Whistles An'A'" on "Youtube", guests also included "Ossian", Dougie MacLean, "The Albion Band", Allan Taylor and "Crannachan". One of TVs better efforts.


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Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: GUEST,Observer
Date: 09 Apr 20 - 07:34 PM

Yes, I was wondering about those six years that the Corries "lasted"

1962 until 1990

Never really bothered with touring or performing outside of Scotland by choice according to Ronnie Brown, although if anyone wants to verify that they could easily consult his book.

I only sing songs that I like.

First thing is that I have to like the melody

Second is that the song has got to be about something, it has to tell a story.

After I have learned the song, I then take great pleasure in finding out as much as I can about it, but that part of it is purely for personal interest.


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Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: GUEST,Malcolm Storey
Date: 09 Apr 20 - 09:37 PM

Jim, I had a friend who a lot of people will remember who was a great singer and also a fierce man for the drink as the Irish might say.
One particular evening we had been celebrating being alive and at the end of the night he came out of the pub and as someone remarked set off for home in six different directions at once.
You seem to have the same problem when it comes to presenting your position with regard to the topic in hand. I get particularly confused when trying to interprit your typos and would ask that you self check your messages before pressing the send button - please.


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Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: r.padgett
Date: 10 Apr 20 - 02:44 AM

Some interesting comments from the usual mudcat suspects

Will folk clubs survive post Covid 19? I thought was the question ~ but of course the wider longstanding questions are relevant

A number of pubs where folk music is an important source of revenue where I find the songs and the music are Doncaster Brewery Tap ~ where the pub brews and yes we sit in what was a Shop frontage ~ I reckon should survive

Fernandes Tap in Wakefield ~ real ale pub a good turn up of traditional style singers/musicians ~ and audience ~

Audience is vital for the on going survival of not just music performers but the pubs themselves

Polka Hop in Wakefield run by young folkies who attract the local Wakefield Morris and sword dancers and also musicians ~ while ever there is an interest in ppl gathering to make music, sing, dance and drink there will be a place and venue ~ all of course depends on continued interest

Concerty clubs are likely to hold and continue to hold Charity folk nights ~I know of two locally who make donations to Charities as a matter of course and attract audiences and enthusiasts on that premise

Professional singers are the key to Folk club continuance ~ many of the revival clubs were and continue to be run by the "young thrusters" there is and argumen that audiences are taken for granted and seen only as a source of income to pay for visiting professional and semi pro guests ~ this is another story!

So for folk clubs to survive depends on the attraction audience, and the nuts and bolts of how the club is run ~ it is not a matter of the guests booked attracting paying customers ~ for me in Barnsley the best guests are booked by the Local Authority entertainments ppl who have the bigger venues and can vary the entertainment and stand any losses whilst taking the profit (or increasing the contribution to fixed costs)

Folk scene is a wide wide animal with all sorts of facets

Folk clubs are ~I will define what I mean, a place where people congregate to sing songs play music and ditties that they (hopefully have learnt) to an audience of ppl who hopefully will embrace the performance ~ guest probably once every so often say once a month ish

A Folk club booking weekly guests is not to my mind a folk club ~ it is a Concert club ~ these should could and hopefully are run on a Club basis ~ it is hardwork and tasks need to be shared and this in turn should help the continued success of the venture

Ray


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Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Apr 20 - 03:28 AM

Sorry Malcolm - I type far too fast and invariably send off my postings while doing something else
I'm afraid I don't accept 'typos' or suggestions that what I have to say is unclear as an excuse for not answering my points, which are, I believe too clear for some people
I'm disappointed that you should hide behind typos - you, of all people

We came together all those years ago to listen too and sing a particular type of song, many of us came to believe those songs to be far more significant than mere entertainment and we began to dig deeper
In the case of Pat and I, that included seeking out people who had a claim (though they may not have made it themselves) to be part of our oral traditions through either having participated in them or belonging to families who had
We spent over thirty years recording their songs and what they had to say about them and, largely based on what we learned, formed our opinions on where where they lay in the grand scheme of things
Some of what we had believed didn't hold water, much did, and we were able to add to that store of knowledge some things we hadn't known - Pat found something that had been staring people in the face about broken token songs that had gone unnoticed, and between us we found out masses about the way traditional singers had learned and passed on their songs and how they viewed them personally as singers (literally envisioned them, in fact!)

Probably one of our most important findings was that the people we met came from generations of natural song-makers who, contrary to the claims of some of our neo-scholars, didn't repeat songs they had been given like parrots, but in fact made many of them because of a desire to record what they saw and experienced - this has been overwhelmingly proved a fact in Ireland and to a lesser degree in Scotland; I see no reason why the same shouldn't be the case with England unless they/we were a particularly backward race

This is the nature of the beast we set out to capture - the remnants of a people's largely lost creative culture and oral history mixed into one enjoyable bundle
As younger people we enjoyed singing the songs - it sometimes took a little time to milk them for their full richness, but we got there in the end - I'm delighted to have lived long enough to see the Irish youth embark on the same path we did and again, I see no reason why that can't happen in Britain, where the ball appears to have been dropped at present
I still enjoy singing, I can't get enough of it, but more important than that, I'm pleased and proud to have something to leave behind in the hope that people will get as at least half much out of it as we did

I have vague memories of having met you on a couple of occasions - I seem to remember you having come from a similar background to myself
I had a pretty basic education and left school having been told by those who taught me that all people like me needed to get through life was the ability to count our wages at the end of the week
Luckily I came from background that taught me that wasn't enough -
My grandfather, a merchant seaman, believed that if you wanted to change the world you needed to educate yourself, so he helped set up the W.E.A among his fellow sailors - he became a fanatical Shakespearean buff, translated some of his plays into broad Scouse and was invited to give talks to students in his home town of Stoke on Trent when he was nearly 80
My dad was similar - an avid reader who wanted to make the world a better place, went off to fight Fascism in Spain, where he was wounded, imprisoned and tortured mentally for nearly a year
He came home to find he had been blacklisted via the authorities so he became a navvy, where he spent a great deal of effort trying to improve conditions
He never stopped reading and brought me up to do the same - he's another Shakespeare addict, as I have become - a family addiction

What I'm trying to say in my typically long-winded way is that I believe we stumbled across something extremely important and precious in our youth and, whether we like it or not, we bear a great responsibility for it (In Ireland they call it 'An geasach' (phonetic) - a binding commitment given as a gift)
It's our job to pass it on, whether we want to be bothered or not - I'm lucky enough to still want to be part of it

Should be enough typos in there to keep those who are inclined that way busy for a week :-)
Jim


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Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Apr 20 - 03:34 AM

Sorry Ray - I like sone of what you say but I believe professional singers, far from being "a key" are a burden we all have to bear
If we relay on them why not stay at home and listen in comfort
We should take our sustenance from our grass-roots nature £young thrusters" sounds a little partonising to me - they are, or should be any revival's lifeblood
Jim


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Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: The Sandman
Date: 10 Apr 20 - 03:41 AM

folk clubs need dedicated organisers ,a reliable and pleasant premises with good acoustics,one that is not at the mercy of changing managers, a good set of resident singers and musicians, and good promotion.
recently [feb 2020]   i had two fantastic nights one at stoke on trent and the other at stockton, one of the organisers of the potteries folk club anne morris an experienced organiser sent me a personal message thanking me for a wonderful night. are you listening clive pownceby?


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Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Apr 20 - 04:56 AM

Folk clubs, as being discussed, came into being less than 70 years ago. Folk music, as we know it, has been around for hundreds of not thousands of years and it will keep going long after the clubs have passed into legend. Much like this discussion really. The folk clubs of the 50s and 60s are gone and no one can turn the clock back. We have moved on but as long as someone is singing and playing the music it will continue to thrive in spite of what people say and do. That is the important thing. Folk music is far too big to be stopped by individuals or constrained by either venues or definition.


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Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: Jack Campin
Date: 10 Apr 20 - 05:17 AM

The problem isn't so much what happens to an individual club - some described here obviously have what it takes to survive - but a spiral of decline that affects them all. Less clubs within travelling distance makes a tour more expensive, which discourage a act from touring, which means less acts available, which means clubs get less attractive and more likely to close... that process can only be redirected by changes in the overall economics or culture of the folk scene. And the culture is the more flexible bit. I suspect we will see a closer integration of on-line performance and micro-venues which will largely replace the folk club institution - it won't be back to as it was before the 1950s but something new.


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Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Apr 20 - 05:19 AM

"it will keep going long after the clubs have passed into legend. "
It will surcive in books and archives - unless people encourage and take advantage of it it will not possibly "keep going" - there is now way it can
That is absolving the generation who re-discovered it from all responsibility for it
If everybody had done that it would have disappeared when it ceased to be part of our cultures
Ticking over in a few 'warm spots' is as far from "thriving" as you can possibly get
It is as "big" or "small" as the numbers involved Dave
That's a whole mixture of contradictions
Jim


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Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 10 Apr 20 - 05:58 AM

"I see no reason why the same shouldn't be the case with England unless they/we were a particularly backward race"

Same old mantra totally unfounded and illogical!

No-one has even hinted, let alone stated, that the English were not capable of, or indeed didn't compose songs.
We have repeatedly told you on numerous threads , and given examples, to show that they did and are still doing.

The point you totally cannot understand and will not take in is that because of their location and the lack of technology at the time (first half of 19th century) these songs had little chance of passing into the national or even regional corpus. When the collectors came along they were more interested in those songs that showed wider evidence of oral transmission as opposed to the locally composed pieces that showed little or no evidence of oral transmission.

For the umpteenth time, comparing 70s Irish travellers with early 19th century rural English is chalk and cheese, as regards what they wrote and sang.

'backward race'! Don't be ridiculous!


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Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: Vic Smith
Date: 10 Apr 20 - 06:13 AM

Steve wrote
Don't be ridiculous!
It is more than ridiculous. It is evidence of racist eugenic thinking and should not go unchallenged by the moderators.


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Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 10 Apr 20 - 06:20 AM

At the beginning of the revival and well into the 60s the folk club was the life blood of the folkscene. For better or worse that is no longer the case. The folk clubs are only another facet of a widely diverse collection of venues and outlets. This will help it to survive, and in my opinion is a much healthier situation.

One aspect that is healthier is that instead of being tucked away in a private room in a pub the music is being taken out into the wide world where anyone can access it and come across it by accident.


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Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: r.padgett
Date: 10 Apr 20 - 07:00 AM

I don't think I said folk clubs rely on the guest artist being booked ~

1 I think that it is a good idea that the young thruster professionals
should run their own clubs and attract their own audience, to rely
on folk clubs (see my definition above posting) creating an audience   
and
booking guests is a thankless task and should not be taken for granted
   
2 Many artist do rely on their good name and ability for bookings and
their attitude is "I am an artist I do not run clubs" ~ yes yes there
are a number who do! But do the artists NOT have a duty to be   
inclusive, to research and teach and be sociable towards younger and
older ppl as well as encouraging audience and club allegiance?

There are many very good/excellent guest artists looking for work ~ so why do they not get working on creating their own clubs and popularising the genre ~

Yes of course many look to different venues ~ is this the way forwards?

Ray


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Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Apr 20 - 07:17 AM

Sigh.....
"No-one has even hinted, let alone stated, that the English were not capable of, or indeed didn't compose songs."
Suggesting that 90% plus of our folk songs were originated from the pens of bad poets - the hacks - is saying exactly that - as is your equating loccaly made songs (when I raised the matter) as the scribbling of retired people with little else to do
What do you suggest our traditional singers were other than parrots repeating whet they had bought Steve
I agree entirely with Vic, though I dought if our meanings are the same - it is "racist" to suggest that the English people didn't make our songs as the Irish now obviously dis
What part exactly do you claim the singers had in the compostion of our folk songs Steve - have you really changed your mind
Ot maybe I misraed and you didn't say they had to buy them ?

Not only did the songs and stories sweel Ebgland/Britain - they were found in Europe
Britain was an Empire - it's soldiers, sailors, peddlers, Travellers, itinerant labourers..... covered the world
Stop making excuses - we know these songs proliferated wherever the English set foot - at home and abroad

If, has as been pointed out, it only takes one person to make a community literary, then equally it only takes one singer to spread a song wherever he/she travels

We don't know for certain who made our folk-songs - we never shall, we can only deal in probabilities
It is highly improbable that desk bound bad poets forced to work at a rate of knots under pressure could possibly have made songs as intimate and insightful of the rural human condition as is to be found in our folk songs
It is far likelier that those who experienced the events described did
It really never gets more difficult than that
Jim


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Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: GUEST,akenaton
Date: 10 Apr 20 - 07:31 AM

I think the real problem is that people like Jim still see folk music as a vehicle to advance a political position.    Although this idea was shared by Ewan, Pete, Woody and the BNP, it is totally false and bears no relation to the music of the people, which was usually aimed at making themselves feel better through song and dance.    Politics never made ANYBODY feel better.


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Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: Jack Campin
Date: 10 Apr 20 - 07:37 AM

I have spent far more time (and money) at festivals and workshops (all round Europe) in recent years than I have at folk clubs. Most of the ones I've been to before, and might have gone to this year, have compensated for the cancellations by organizing some sort of web-based content - video retrospectives, new album releases and previews by their most visible performers, Skype/Zoom tutoring and playalongs... it's been pretty actuve, more than I can follow. Some local sessions are doing the same in virtual pubs. Surely folk clubs need to do that if they are going to live through hibernation. Who's doing this well?


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Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Apr 20 - 07:51 AM

I'm not arguing with you, Jim. I have stated my point of view. Everyone knows yours. Neither will change and to repeat those views ad infinitum results in rancour and insanity. I disagree with your standpoint but accept it is your view. If you could do the same you can draw a line under it as I am now.


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Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: Johnny J
Date: 10 Apr 20 - 08:13 AM

Jack asks "Who's doing this well? "

Well this is quite important.

There is so much going on online out there including individual artists, musicians, and singers promoting themselves for a variety of reasons. Some just like performing and getting the music out there but, for some, there are financial considerations.
As Jack says, local sessions, workshop tutors, festival organisers are all doing this sort of thing too.

I too find it hard to keep up with it all and there's still plenty of other musical things I can be doing at home without worrying about too much increased activity online.

However, I think most of us will be more discerning as to to which videos we check out, groups we join or follow and so on. So, it's possible that we might even become less loyal to our local clubs and/or sessions etc if we see that there's something better out there.
With The Internet, "the world is your oyster" so to speak but, with live music in the real world, your access is restricted to venues and events within travelling distance although we obviously make a special effort to visit some of our favourite festivals too.


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Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Apr 20 - 08:21 AM

"I think the real problem is that people like Jim still see folk music as a vehicle to advance a political position."
Try responding to what I have said rather than throwing stones at it from a sake distance Ake
If you think folk song is the product of the educated elite - don't beat about the bush - just come out and say so

"I have stated my point of view. "
Me to - that's what were here for
The queue of people pleading the fifth on the grounds it might incriminate them grows longer and longer by the day
Jim


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Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: Jack Campin
Date: 10 Apr 20 - 09:47 AM

Politics never made ANYBODY feel better.

Nonsense. The Scottish independence movement has consistently had exhilarating music, so did the anti-racist and gay liberation struggles in their heyday.

It's a downer (speaking as an enthusistic indy street musician) that the Scottish national struggle has been suspended until the plague's over, and we need to do something about that.


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Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 10 Apr 20 - 09:52 AM

Jim
As ever, songwriters write songs. Not many others had the time or the inclination, and is still thus!


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Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 10 Apr 20 - 09:53 AM

I'm not going over all that stuff again. If anyone has the slightest interest they can go back over all the responses to Jim's twaddle on this subject.


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Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Apr 20 - 10:19 AM

"I'm not going over all that stuff again."
I didn't expect for a moment you would Steve
You have always been at a loss to back up your outlandish claims with rational or even friendly argument and that obviously remains the case
Suggesting that the English hadn't the time to write songs while the Irish undergoing Famine wars of national liberation, mass enforced exile, struggles for land... used those hardships to produce thousands of their most important songs appears to add to your somewhat jaundiced view of the English rural dweller
If you are going to make claims as important as you have about 'The Voice of the People' you need to have thought them through very carefully - you obviously have not, which saddens me quite a bit
Jim


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Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Apr 20 - 10:49 AM

"so did the anti-racist and gay liberation struggles"
The memory of the Civil Rights Struggles in the Southern United States heve been imprinted forever in our memories through the songs they produced - as did those on the fight against slavery a century before
ONE OF THE MOST POLITICAL OF THE IRISH ONES
Jim


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Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 10 Apr 20 - 11:19 AM

>>>>>you need to have thought them through very carefully - you obviously have not, which saddens me quite a bit<<<<<

Not only have I thought them through carefully, I have actually done the research on almost every single ballad and most of it published. Where's yours?


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Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 10 Apr 20 - 11:21 AM

Not only that, but if the current confinement continues I will have all the proof you need out there in under a year. (That's the 90% BTW)


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Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: The Sandman
Date: 10 Apr 20 - 11:43 AM

jesus christ .lets hope he rises again


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Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Apr 20 - 12:09 PM

"Where's yours?"
You know wheer mine is Steve - thirty years of it
How about sharing your proof ?
All the research in the world is meaningless as regards claims such as your without proof
You fly in the face aof everything that has been believed to date - including by veteran broadside researchers such as Leslie Shepherd
"My resarrch's bigger than yours reduces research to a pissing competition - that is not what I want to be involved in
I left that sort of thing behind in Junior school - got fed up with wining!!
So far, you have admitted that you are unable to guarantee your claims for a single song and have admitted this is your opinion only
What more can I wish for ?
Jim


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Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Apr 20 - 12:53 PM

Old anti-drummer joke
A man walks into a shop and says, "I'm a drummer and I've decided to change my instrument
I'd like a Martin guitar, raised frets and a mother of-pearl designs inlay along the neck - with Thomasistic strings"
The man behind the counter stares at him for a second and says, "This is a fish shop"
Jim


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Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: Joe G
Date: 10 Apr 20 - 12:58 PM

Jim's idea of what a folk club should be would end up with a tiny audience and would die out within weeks. Most club attendees I suspect have wider tastes, which stretch to contemporary songs in the folk idiom, and love the variety of music in the folk genre that can be enjoyed at a well run club such as the Topic in Bradford or the Black Swan in York. Perhaps if Jim popped across here and visited one of them he might find he has an enjoyable and rewarding evening

I was pleased to see earlier that the Black Swan has put together a virtual club night with guests Chris While & Julie Matthews and floor spots from club regulars (sound quality is poor in the first couple of videos unfortunately)

Black Swan Virtual Club Night


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Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 10 Apr 20 - 02:40 PM

'How about sharing your proof ?'

Again, Jim, you are not reading what people are stating here.

Just a reminder...(readers must be sick of me repeating this)

FACT..90% of the earliest extant versions of those folksongs in the published English corpus are from urban commercial sources.

OPINION (from 50 years study of hundreds of thousands of ballads) this is where 95% originated.

My proof is already out there in 4 published books and numerous articles in other books and journals. And as I've just stated within the next 12 months I will be publishing the earliest sources for all of them.

If you want to read the material before I bring it all together you can find most of it in second editions of Marrow Bones, The Wanton Seed, Southern Harvest, and the new book shortly out, Southern Songster.


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Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Apr 20 - 02:48 PM

"Jim's idea of what a folk club should be would end up with a tiny audience and would die out within weeks"
Given the right circumstances - well sung songs fitting the description you give your club - there is no earthly reason that should be the case - that is the limit of what I suggest - no purism - no banning of accompaniment, no "traditional songs" only...
That formula worked for decades and petered out when it was no longer the case
Wider tastes - you mean you expect jazz clubs to put on grand opera or vice versa
Why make such demands on folk clubs unless you regard folk not worth bothering about - do you ?

A few yeras ago I young man I have now come to know well as a friend, posted on this forum that a group of his contemporaries were starting a singing club in Dublin to cater for young people
I ave to say I bridled somewhat to be excluded because of my age (not the case of course)
Now, 'The Night Before Larry Was Stretched' (abbreviated to 'Larry - thank god) is ranked among the best folk clubs I ahve ever attended
Unnacomanied tradition songs, well sung mainly by young people, some of whom are carving a name for themselves elsewhere
Why can't that happen in Britain/England
The only reason I can think of is that there are too few people who have the confidence in our folk songs any more
Sad, sad, sad
Have I aver said what I enjoy and don't enjoy - don't remember have to any extent, but it's immaterial anyway
I love mid-career Sinatra but I wouldn't want to find it at a folk club
Jim


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Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 10 Apr 20 - 02:55 PM

Why can't that happen in Britain/England

We have given you numerous examples of this happening in Britain. You just dismiss them.


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Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: The Sandman
Date: 10 Apr 20 - 03:26 PM

i do not know about bradford topic or the black swan.
all i can say is that i recently had to excellent gigs one at stockton folk club and one at the potteries folk club in stoke on trent, both clubs were full, and i had good nights, with good audience singing , the organiser of the stoke folk club, annie morris sent me a message thankyou for a wonderful night, annie morris used to run a folk club at the black swan in fallowfield manchester and is an experienced organiser.
i know jim would have enjoyed those nights.
i used to play the black swan and bradford topic , i suspect they do not book me any more because they consider me too tradtional[ even though i sing some contemporary songs written in trad style].
i dont care , i had two great gigs in february ,it was just like it used to be good singing and good songs, i get booked here in ireland i had a great gig [unaccompanied] no banjo or concertina allowed i dont care, we all had a great time tradtional music is alive and well in ireland, and stoke on trent and stockton on tees ,and the wilsons club in teeside, bradford topic used to be an ok club too , but cannot comment on it now. I HAVE very few REGRETS ABOUT MOVING TO IRELAND. I hve given myself two places to perform,I CAN HEAR HIGH STANDARD OF TRADTIONAL MUSIC FOR SEVERAL HOURS MOST DAYS ON RADIO+NA+GAELTACHTA.I do miss watching good morris dancing, and i think folk clubs are superior to open mics, and i would be soory to see them disappear, particularly the ones i have mentioned which are based on high resident singer standard


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Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: The Sandman
Date: 10 Apr 20 - 03:35 PM

I disagree withJOE GRINT , I HAVE RECNTLY QUOTED TWO CLUBS BASED ON JIMS CRITERIA THEY WERE BOTH FULL. i talk from experience joe grint, you are basing your analysis upon your own club.
ihave had excellent gigs at the following clubs over the last couple of years bodmin, welly teeside folk club stoke on trent, stockton, darlington workshop, folk on the moor nr plymouth derby folk club, these are clubs that fit jims criteria.
personally i think there should be room for trad clubs, contemporary clubs blues clubs and clubs that feature all


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Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: Dave Sutherland
Date: 10 Apr 20 - 03:37 PM

"Jim's idea of what a folk club should be would end up with a tiny audience and would die out within weeks"
Jim has complimented us on our booking policy and choice of guests in the past at Tigerfolk, Long Eaton (our last guests before the lockdown were Kevin and Ellen Mitchell with a surprise drop in by Francey Devine) and in February we celebrated our 29th Birthday.


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Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: Joe G
Date: 10 Apr 20 - 03:43 PM

I would say that at the very least 90% of the music and songs I hear in folk clubs is folk music as I and most people (except Jim :-) ) consider it. Clubs that had a narrower booking policy based primarily around traditional song alone would not appeal to me and I suspect would significant narrow their potential audience base. The variety of music to be heard at clubs is their attraction to most I suspect. Jim keeps throwing up extreme comparisons but as has been said so many times on here the music most often heard at folk clubs (certainly those I have attended since the age of 17 - 43 years!) is folk music. Not jazz, not opera, not 'pop'. I've been to see a few blues players at folk clubs over the years and I booked an excellent Danishfolk /jazz fusion band but other than that almost everything else I have heard has been folk


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Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: The Sandman
Date: 10 Apr 20 - 03:49 PM

Jim's idea of what a folk club should be would end up with a tiny audience and would die out within weeks. Most club attendees I suspect have wider tastes, which stretch to contemporary songs in the folk idiom, and love the variety of music in the folk genre that can be enjoyed at a well run club such as the Topic in Bradford or the Black Swan in York. quote joe grint.
ihave quoted 7 clubs that are well run and based on jims criteria, and are succesful


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Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: GUEST,Joe G
Date: 10 Apr 20 - 03:52 PM

Fair enough Dick - I'm just glad you understand what Jim's criteria are :-)


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Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 10 Apr 20 - 03:57 PM

Will folk clubs survive? Yes, of course they will, along with all the other diverse outlets for the music. Of all types of music I can think of folk music is the most accessible and easiest to get actively involved in. Before WWII it wasn't there but ordinary folk had a lot more on their minds than music and by and large they were happy to sit back and listen. A lot of things changed after the war, and though things have evolved since then you are not going to see a decline in our music. It's never going to be mainstream but it never has been. Surely that's part of the attraction.


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Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Apr 20 - 03:59 PM

Jim - 'Given the right circumstances - well sung songs fitting the description you give your club - there is no earthly reason that should be the case - that is the limit of what I suggest - no purism - no banning of accompaniment, no "traditional songs" only...'

That seems perfectly reasonable and what I have experienced at almost every folk club I have been to :-)


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Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 10 Apr 20 - 04:09 PM

Whilst accepting this OP is about folk clubs, there have been criticisms of people using folders and phones etc. I'm not keen on this myself, but not one session or folk club or similar I have attended in the past 30 years has had a majority of performers using this method. In fact in any event where it has happened they have been very much in the minority. At some point one would hope they would look around and see that the majority are having more success and applause by singing songs they have learnt. I have also noticed singers progressing from using the crutch to throwing the crutch away.


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Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: Joe G
Date: 10 Apr 20 - 04:15 PM

Sorry that last Guest was me. Looks like my login had logged out!


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Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: The Sandman
Date: 10 Apr 20 - 04:19 PM

joe grint please note
Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: Dave Sutherland - PM
Date: 10 Apr 20 - 03:37 PM

"Jim's idea of what a folk club should be would end up with a tiny audience and would die out within weeks"
Jim has complimented us on our booking policy and choice of guests in the past at Tigerfolk, Long Eaton (our last guests before the lockdown were Kevin and Ellen Mitchell with a surprise drop in by Francey Devine) and in February we celebrated our 29th Birthday.


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Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: Joe G
Date: 10 Apr 20 - 04:43 PM

Yes I saw that thanks


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Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: GUEST,Observer
Date: 10 Apr 20 - 07:50 PM

"Suggesting that the English hadn't the time to write songs while the Irish undergoing Famine wars of national liberation, mass enforced exile, struggles for land... used those hardships to produce thousands of their most important songs appears to add to your somewhat jaundiced view of the English rural dweller"

The "English" have written a vast number of songs, many now falsely claimed by the Irish purely because Luke Kelly on his numerous sabbaticals brought them them back and introduced them into the Dubliners repertoire.

The Irish, their claim to fame as the MOPE [Most Oppressed People Ever] is a bit of a joke. Under the rule of the British the people of Ireland suffered no more from Famine {See Scotland 1700 -1707 & 1847 -1851} Struggles for land [The enclosures] The population were treated no differently than anywhere else in the Kingdom. There were a number of factors that mitigated certain events throughout the British Isles and they were largely down to the resilience and common sense of the people. Nowhere at all in any discussion of the Famine in Ireland do I ever hear that 40 years before it happened land owners and tenant farmers in Ireland were warned and told that they had to alter their ways and that all such advice was studiously ignored - always easiest to blame someone else.


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Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: Jack Campin
Date: 10 Apr 20 - 08:03 PM

Something that is likely to change in the near future: the way people structure their listening experience.

Web-based music making is likely to improve very fast. There is an incentive for the makers of software like Zoom to improve their product, and people are going to improve their use of it. Already the sound quality you can get at home from an Internet performance can be better than what a typical folk club sound tech can achieve.

So, the sonic experience isn't a USP for the live folk club.

More importantly, music on the web is a mass of files of every duration you could want, linked by every relationship the user might want to follow. Want to spend an evening listening to versions of Long Lankin, follow an Arabic oud piece with an animated score, trance out to a full-length concert video from 30 years ago, play singalongs for your kids at bedtime, put together your own assemblage of John Prine's career, switch from a Spanish Civil War song to a related Pathe newsreel, listen to something a friend just messaged you about - none of that is doable from your seat in a folk club. The stasis of a folk club goes deeper than simply spending all evening in the same consumer relationship to the same performers doing material of the same genre you got last month.

So what does a folk club have to offer to somebody with those enlarged expectations? In their present format, not a lot - to anyone, since older generations who ignored music on the web in the past will now be driven to use it willy-nilly.

Drastic change is inevitable.


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