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Will folk clubs survive

SPB-Cooperator 06 Apr 20 - 09:19 AM
Rain Dog 06 Apr 20 - 09:25 AM
John MacKenzie 06 Apr 20 - 09:32 AM
Rain Dog 06 Apr 20 - 09:38 AM
Nigel Paterson 06 Apr 20 - 09:51 AM
GUEST,Sol 06 Apr 20 - 10:49 AM
Dave Sutherland 06 Apr 20 - 11:13 AM
Mr Red 06 Apr 20 - 12:08 PM
Jim Carroll 06 Apr 20 - 12:45 PM
SPB-Cooperator 06 Apr 20 - 02:37 PM
GUEST,Malcolm Storey 06 Apr 20 - 09:44 PM
Jim Carroll 07 Apr 20 - 03:03 AM
GUEST,henryp 07 Apr 20 - 03:24 AM
GUEST,Peter 07 Apr 20 - 04:48 AM
SPB-Cooperator 07 Apr 20 - 05:39 AM
SPB-Cooperator 07 Apr 20 - 05:45 AM
Rain Dog 07 Apr 20 - 05:46 AM
JHW 07 Apr 20 - 05:56 AM
Jim Carroll 07 Apr 20 - 06:06 AM
GUEST,kenny 07 Apr 20 - 01:22 PM
GUEST,Malcolm Storey 07 Apr 20 - 10:34 PM
Mr Red 09 Apr 20 - 02:51 AM
Jim Carroll 09 Apr 20 - 03:34 AM
Steve Gardham 09 Apr 20 - 05:21 AM
Jim Carroll 09 Apr 20 - 05:33 AM
Steve Gardham 09 Apr 20 - 05:45 AM
GUEST,akenaton 09 Apr 20 - 05:52 AM
Steve Gardham 09 Apr 20 - 05:55 AM
Jim Carroll 09 Apr 20 - 06:32 AM
GUEST 09 Apr 20 - 08:14 AM
GUEST,henryp 09 Apr 20 - 08:23 AM
Jack Campin 09 Apr 20 - 08:42 AM
GUEST,Keith Price 09 Apr 20 - 09:22 AM
Jim Carroll 09 Apr 20 - 09:31 AM
GUEST,Big Al Whittle 09 Apr 20 - 09:42 AM
Johnny J 09 Apr 20 - 10:03 AM
GUEST,akenaton 09 Apr 20 - 10:13 AM
Jim Carroll 09 Apr 20 - 10:56 AM
GUEST,Derrick 09 Apr 20 - 11:42 AM
GUEST,Starship 09 Apr 20 - 11:50 AM
Jim Carroll 09 Apr 20 - 12:25 PM
GUEST,kenny 09 Apr 20 - 12:59 PM
Jim Carroll 09 Apr 20 - 01:27 PM
GUEST,Derrick 09 Apr 20 - 01:38 PM
Johnny J 09 Apr 20 - 01:56 PM
GUEST,akenaton 09 Apr 20 - 03:00 PM
Jim Carroll 09 Apr 20 - 03:05 PM
GUEST 09 Apr 20 - 03:48 PM
GUEST,Johnny J 09 Apr 20 - 03:50 PM
GUEST,akenaton 09 Apr 20 - 04:50 PM
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Subject: Will folk clubs survive?
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 06 Apr 20 - 09:19 AM

Once the pandemic subsides and it is safe for people to gather again, how many venues have made a commitment to welcome the folk clubs back.


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Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: Rain Dog
Date: 06 Apr 20 - 09:25 AM

How many venues will still be there?


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Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 06 Apr 20 - 09:32 AM

Anything that gets punters into reopened pubs, will be welcomed by publicans, when it's all over.
How many of us will be left?


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Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: Rain Dog
Date: 06 Apr 20 - 09:38 AM

I agree with you that pubs will welcome clubs & their punters back when they reopen.

I do worry that there will be a few pubs that will not reopen once things get back to 'normal'. We will all have to wait and see.


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Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: Nigel Paterson
Date: 06 Apr 20 - 09:51 AM

Just about everything we took for granted before the pandemic, will, when we get the all clear, be changed; have been lost completely; be still with us, but slimmed down; appear to be missing, but 'magically phœnix-like', reappear to astound us all. Folk clubs are in this giant, melting pot.


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Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: GUEST,Sol
Date: 06 Apr 20 - 10:49 AM

I suspect finding venues will be the biggest challenge. Pubs were closing in their numbers before this hit. As a result, I suspect there will be a lot of pubs/hotels/clubs/cafes that will not even bother to try and re-open when this is over. People's attitudes, habits and outlook on life in general will possibly change as well. This could work out to be to the benefit of performing 'live' whether it be folk, rock or otherwise. Of course, the opposite could happen - who knows? I don't expect it will ever be the same as it was a month or so ago.


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Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: Dave Sutherland
Date: 06 Apr 20 - 11:13 AM

We certainly intend to continue once that we are allowed out again and we are possibly fortunate at Tigerfolk that the Stumble Inn, Long Eaton is one of the town's go to real ale pubs as well as the live music centre of the town. The landlord had cancelled all the band bookings for the forseeable future along with their open mic plus darts and dominoes etc. We are reasonably confident that we will re-open to our regular audiance when this crisis is over.


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Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: Mr Red
Date: 06 Apr 20 - 12:08 PM

We are heading for a financial nuclear winter. There won't be as much money around. But cheap entertainment, ie local, will flourish.
Venues will be the problem, though selling property won't be easy, running as a pub/cafe/parish hall will be easier for many.

One thing I can predict with confidence is that it won't be exactly the same. We will have to accept it as it comes.
Food/consumer goods won't have the plethora of choice. I mean, who will buy bottled water from Hawaii, in the UK? Not that I believed it was water from Hawaii anyway. Minerals yes, distilled water - definitely!


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Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Apr 20 - 12:45 PM

Maybe they can take the opportunity to build an improved model like they did London after the Great Fire
Just a thought !
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 06 Apr 20 - 02:37 PM

1666 had Christopher Wren , who wold the great architect be?


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Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: GUEST,Malcolm Storey
Date: 06 Apr 20 - 09:44 PM

I suspect that people's social habits will have changed by the time the current situation ends.
They will have got used to spending more time at home and will be less likely to keep up old habits.
I know that my own social habits (going for a pint every night) changed as pubs became less social and it is a long time since I have visited my locals on any nights other than Monday, Tuesday and Thursday quiz nights when social dialogue and interaction are still possible.
I/we usually try local hostelries when on our various travels and are occasionally pleased.


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Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Apr 20 - 03:03 AM

" who wold the great architect be?"
Hopefully someone who doesn't need a white stich and has to go around wailing "Nobody knows what folk song is anymore"
I know of many fine singers and enthusiastic folk lovers who left th scene because they stopped hearing folk songs - like me, they didn't lose their love of them, they just couldn't be bothered having to look hard anf have to take pot luck - we haven't all died off yet
Best not to look for leaders in my experience - they're probably doing the same -
Getting something started only takes a handful (even two, if you're thinkinh about something else !)

I don't go along with Malcolm - the folkies I know/grew were gregarious, even herd animals who thrive on company - I suspect they are missing the buzz of that every much as I am
We live in a one street town in the West of Ireland - five/six nights of sessions - multi ones on Saturday and Sunday
I expect they'll hold a mass to celebrate their return (so will the publicans)
We're also lucky to have at least one venue where people who prefer to keep drinking and music apart and can hold an occasional mini-display' concert
That's not going to disappear
Jim


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Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: GUEST,henryp
Date: 07 Apr 20 - 03:24 AM

The UK ended March 2019 with 39,135 pubs, 320 more than a year earlier, the first net increase since 2010. So there is a demand for venues where people can meet, eat, drink and make music.

Inevitably, some pubs and hotels will remain closed after the lockdown ends, so the downward trend is likely to resume this year. Some will find a new use, but others will re-open in due course, perhaps with community support. Folk clubs can be one element of this.


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Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: GUEST,Peter
Date: 07 Apr 20 - 04:48 AM

Certainly around here in the Home Counties the new "pubs" are small bars opening in redundant High Street shops. The purpose built pubs with the capacity to host a folk club, without taking over the whole venue, are still on the decline.

@JimCarrol its nice to know that pubs in a foreign country are still thriving in the traditional form but that doesn't invalidate Malcolm's comments about this side of the Irish Sea.


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Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 07 Apr 20 - 05:39 AM

I am finding more and more pubs, are focusing a lot more on food sales, with social drinking increasing squeezed into a corners. A few years back on holiday in the Cotswolds we ran across a village pub where customers could only sit at a table if they were going to have a meal and this seems to be happening more and more. There are also pub chains like Wheterspoons, which because of their asset wealth are more likely to survive than freehouses, that are only interested in pumping out sales to as many customers as possible and don't fit in as part of the community and another chain which has been discussed before in the forum whose owner is against live music.

I like to think that at the end of the pandemic, communities will want to come together and things will change for the better but I'm not holding my breath.


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Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 07 Apr 20 - 05:45 AM

Looks like I have drifted off topic on my own thread.

Another angle is also whether, at the end of all this, those who organise folk clubs, will be motivated enough to deal with the hassle of getting going again, and if they will get enough support from folk enthusiasts to do so.


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Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: Rain Dog
Date: 07 Apr 20 - 05:46 AM

There has also been a rise in the number of micro pubs. They are cheaper to run than the traditional pub. We might well see an increase in their number once things start to return to 'normal'.

Of course we might also see some of the micro pubs we have now disappearing due to the current situation. Hopefully they will be able to hang on in there until things get better.

Posted from Kent, the home of the micro.


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Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: JHW
Date: 07 Apr 20 - 05:56 AM

Though we folkies were regular patrons of many a pub we weren't known for spending money on drink. Probably driving. Many even took own water in. Nearby Mon FC landlord asked to add a quid to the guest night door money to help income.
At the very first FC I went to, Oaktree at Richmond (Yorks of course) the heaving Friday FC was ousted to instal a pool table, decades ago. Pub has been houses for years.
New recruit little bars on shopping streets may re-appear. May suit a FC better than the many pubs that had the walls pulled out last century. No business can survive without turnover. Pubs were struggling and closing anyway.
It will be life Jim, but not as we know it.


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Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Apr 20 - 06:06 AM

I must have seen the last of the couple of pubs here who ran on a shoestring but still encouraged only the drinkers they had things in common with
They were family pubs which were rub vy people who considered them their homes
WE dran in two of them until their demise - I still shed a a silent tear for Mary Fahy's and Tom Queally's when I pass them - regularly
Jim


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Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: GUEST,kenny
Date: 07 Apr 20 - 01:22 PM

"I still shed a a silent tear for Mary Fahy's and Tom Queally's when I pass them - regularly".
I'm with you on that, Jim. And also the Cleary's across the road from them - if I've remembered that right. All great hosts for the music at Willie Clancy week, starting for me in the 1980s, Hennessey's as well, although we did get a few tunes in there, surprisingly, about 3 years ago.
"Will folk clubs survive ?" I don't know. It would not affect me at all if they didn't, at least, where I am. What's more important is that the songs and the music will survive, of that I have no doubt.


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Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: GUEST,Malcolm Storey
Date: 07 Apr 20 - 10:34 PM

I accept your assessment, Jim, of things as they are where you are but must admit to writing only for things as I see them where I am.
I have had many glorious times in your part of the world and hope to renew the experience again - ano domini allowing.
Interestingly when I worked in Ballymena in 1976/7 I had problems finding anything other than country and western but those were difficult times.
As someone says above the songs and music will survive and hopefully we will not be paraphrasing by saying "Its folk music Jim but not as we know it"
I feel I have done my bit over the years and am still doing bit as I approach my dotage but would probably turn down a knighthood (tongue firmly in cheek).
Lets all keep safe and keep as well as we can.
And stop bitching (not accusing you of that Jim) - life's too short.


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Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: Mr Red
Date: 09 Apr 20 - 02:51 AM

Maybe sessions will return more easily than Folk Clubs

The difference?
Well, drinkers can sit and talk with a session going on in the corner.


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Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Apr 20 - 03:34 AM

Kenny - now you really have left me in tears - not only are the bars closed but those running them are no longer with us (I suppose ou know Young Jim Marrinan died a little after Noreen was immobilized by a stroke)
Still humming with music here - more than ever in fact

"Its folk music Jim but not as we know it"
Being involved in folk song on many levels, I haven't got a clue what that means I'm afraid Malcolm - I'm basically a singer-turned researcher
I was drawn into the scene because I liked what I heard and eventually wanted to be part of it
When I lifted the corner to see what was underneath I found it teeming with life and social history - two levels of deep enjoyment for the price of one
I sat through several local history classes here before the Dreaded lurgi closed them and found there were about a dozen songs I was aware of that touched on the subject matter, local murders, drownings, shipwrecks, women disputing being married off, evictions, land wars, cattle rustling... both part of my two interests
I really can't see how what has gradually happened to the folk scene has come anywhere near replacing that in either enjoyment or intellectual stimulation
Whe began to lose our   clubs when they forgot what folk songs were and how unique and important they were
We can alwas try karaoke if all we want to do is blast out a few songs, but it seems a little..... well... destructive to steal the identity of such an important aspect of our history and culture
Sorry if that upsets some people (as I secretly hope it will)
Jim


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Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 09 Apr 20 - 05:21 AM

>>I'm basically a singer-turned researcher.<< >> When I lifted the corner to see what was underneath<<

How many other people did that in these islands since the 50s when it all kicked off? How many are doing that today? The TSF has a membership of about 200. That will give you an idea of the % of folk enthusiasts who bother to 'lift the corner'. Most are quite content to perform or listen with a minimum of lifting, and it has always been that way. Neither of us is going to change that significantly no matter how hard we try. (We will both keep trying of course). I doubt the situation is much different in Ireland.

In my own area, to discuss face to face with anyone the level of interest we have, other than TSF meetings, I have colleagues in North Lincs, Sheffield, West Yorks and Newcastle. At least an hour's drive away.

>>Whe began to lose our   clubs when they forgot what folk songs were and how unique and important they were<<

Jim, you have been taken to task on this one numerous times by numerous people. The decline of folk clubs was down to a multiplicity of factors over a long period. Folk Music in the UK is every bit as strong as it ever was (allowing for current economic and other conditions) but it has evolved in a myriad of ways. The folk club is NOT the be all and end all.


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Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Apr 20 - 05:33 AM

Steve - the main causes of the decline of the scene are both obvious and were predicted - what happened later may have had numerous reasons
Standards were bad and getting worse and people were turning up at folk clubs and not heaing folk-songs
What remained has proven to be non-sustainable
That makes total senswe to me
If I want to hear Ed Shaeran songs I go to the master, not the sweeper-up
If I want to take pot luck there are other, better organised laces for that

I think it's common sense to think that the more you learn of the song the more you are likely to want to sing or listen to it again
Research and performance have always seemed inseparable to me
Now we have the internet and forums like this we are able to add constantly to both our knowledge and enjoyment of the songs - it would be a crying shame to waste that
I have recently added around a dozen 'must-learns' to my list from my Irish Child ballad work
Jim


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Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 09 Apr 20 - 05:45 AM

'Research and performance have always seemed inseparable to me' Then you are in a very very small minority. On here I can only think of Brian in that category. I suppose I do know the background to all the songs I sing but that is a biproduct. I definitely consider my performance and research as 2 separate but very enjoyable things. Perhaps if the likes of Bert had done the same we might have had a lot more clarity from him.


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Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: GUEST,akenaton
Date: 09 Apr 20 - 05:52 AM

Hmmm, I suppose most here were around at the start of the fifties and sixties "folk boom".   The truth is, that very few who attended our weekly concerts were in the least interested in the history of the songs, they came for the emotional kick that wasn't present in the popular music of the time.
Some people here, and one in particular should start to understand that our population has changed out of all recognition regarding how they respond or are entertained. Our generation felt a connection to the music, as we recognised the hardship of life; it affected us all and if it didn't kill us it made us strong. At the time, our music also engendered a sense of community through the plethora of chorus songs constructed many years before for that sole purpose,
Times have changed, let the clubs die in peace, there is always Mudcat to ease the pain of our more sensitive brethren.


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Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 09 Apr 20 - 05:55 AM

>>>Standards were bad and getting worse and people were turning up at folk clubs and not heaing folk-songs<<<<

This was happening right from the 50s and through. Some places it happened but not in others. I and many others here have stated that as City dwellers like you were, if we wanted it we could always find traditional song clubs where that medium dominated. In the 60s in Hull we had 2 main long-lasting folkclubs in the same pub. One was an anything goes, the other dominated by trad folk music. The trad one went on into the 90s long after the other had folded, and even then the trad one evolved into 2 clubs out into the sticks where trad continued and still does dominate. I see similar patterns in other areas which we've told you about constantly and you ignore. Then there are all the sessions, singarounds, concerts, festivals that thrive in the cities and elsewhere, even in these sad economic conditions. They WILL come back after the pandemic.

And by the way, enthusiasts are going to great lengths to run events online. More power to them, until we can get back what we had, and for Godsake give them all the support you can.


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Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Apr 20 - 06:32 AM

"This was happening right from the 50s and through. Some places it happened but not in others."
On the contrary - while some clubs ogged along, many maintained their own standards and no lonegr had to depend on outside help - the standard became particularly high in some and never fell below what was acceptible in many otherse which is why Alex Campbell developed his "good enough fro folk"   jibe to annoy 'the purists'
When those standards began to fall there were comments in the mags (still have many of them)
Folk Review published an article (from Fred Woods I think) which led to s long, long debate on everything people thought was going wrong with the clubs - I still have them
Shortly after that audiences declined, clubs began to close, labels and other outlets disappeared... the rest is history
That happened i London, Birmingham, Manchester and other cities and also in some of the smaller places we had dealings with - Pat noticed this as she was booking secretary for 'The Singers Club
It was around then that, when she tried to get Walter Pardon booked she was told, "We don't do that sort of thing, we're a folk club'

On line is fine - but it's impersonal and remote and basically uncontrolled and uncontrollable in both quality and content
The social side of the club scene was never too important to me but some people here and elsewhere have put it up sometimes as being as important as the music
Nevr get that from your I-pod
Jim


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Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Apr 20 - 08:14 AM

Can we return to the real 21st century folk scene rather than Jim's reimagining of the 20th please.


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Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: GUEST,henryp
Date: 09 Apr 20 - 08:23 AM

The question could be; How many folk clubs will survive?

How many professional singers will they be able to support? Will folk singers in future be amateurs and semi-professionals? Would this be a bad thing? Where would they find their audience, if they actually need one?


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Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: Jack Campin
Date: 09 Apr 20 - 08:42 AM

The boom in on-line performances provides a basis for a recovery to start with gatherings in private homes - then sessions and house concerts in small venues, whichever ones are still open. The larger the scale, the longer the recovery will take, more because of financial risk than infection risk - and given the additional hit of Brexit, folk stadium concerts are probably gone forever.

Folk clubs are in the middle of this spectrum. It might take more energy and commitment to restart one than can be found. I can't see many of them making it.


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Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: GUEST,Keith Price
Date: 09 Apr 20 - 09:22 AM

" I can't see many of them making it " Sadly Jack I think you're right. There's no need for a designated space a lot of songs sung would be perfectly acceptable in the bar.We gathered together in a separate room for a reason. Our music wasn't main steam.

Things will be different when they sound the all clear.


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Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Apr 20 - 09:31 AM

"How many professional singers will they be able to support?"
The revival was set up to avoid the need for professional singers - who needs them - we never did
Jim


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Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: GUEST,Big Al Whittle
Date: 09 Apr 20 - 09:42 AM

I wish all pubs had those Pepsi machines like there are in Harvester pubs. I get pissed off with the expensive and lousy choice of non alcoholic drinks. I don't know what its like in other countries, but in England you will lose your driving licence if you drink over the limit and drive.

The americans were lucky having folk clubs in coffee houses. There were a few in England, but the majority were in the upstairs rooms of pubs - totally inaccessisible for disabled folk music fans.

Its stuff like this and the loudmouths who look like they've been arseholed since 1954 that need a re-boot. Some changes have been good for our society - like the tightening up of the drink driving laws and awareness of the needs of disabled people. Many of us seem to have ignored them.

Also nice comfortable chairs would be good.


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Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: Johnny J
Date: 09 Apr 20 - 10:03 AM

I almost agree with Jack C although, in the great scheme of things, most folk clubs are probably more at the smaller end of the spectrum.
So, they may have a better chance. Certainly the more cosy and community variety. Even Edinburgh Folk Club could fall into such a category since they moved to a smaller venue a few months ago.

Then medium sized venues but I reckon many people will be very cautious about attending larger events until they are very sure that the virus has been eradicated.


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Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: GUEST,akenaton
Date: 09 Apr 20 - 10:13 AM

Which virus?


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Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Apr 20 - 10:56 AM

I find much of this both revealing and depressing
Iv'e spent years being told that I have no ight to an opinion and folk clubs are healthy
Now I'm being told that they are more or less finished and that I have to rely on I-phones
Who is a girl to believe !!!
I-phone see a litle like pleasing yourself by masturbating -and why sing into them when you've always got a rubber duck in the bath awaiting your attention
I relied eye-contact and listener response to help my judge if my songs were working for others - we shared opinions and information at our clubs, we requested songs from the singers
I can still remember queues of people during the interval and at the end waiting to talk to the unapproachable Ewan and Peg, both had to apologise regularly for not being to fit in all the requests
Our songs were, I believe, made for sharing emotions and experiences - they were a social necessity which thrived on human contact
Lap-top, I-pone - nah - I might as well take a leaf out of Shirley Valentine's book and talk to the kitchen wall

Pepsi always made me fart - it used to be 3d a bottle in the Cavern until some local humourist spread the rumour that it made you impotent
Jim


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Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: GUEST,Derrick
Date: 09 Apr 20 - 11:42 AM

Will folk clubs survive?
Yes, as long as people wish to meet and sing and play together.
The people will enjoy what ever kind of folk they personally enjoy.
Some clubs will lean heavily in the traditional direction others will lean the other way.
Most clubs are a mixture of both and appreciate both types.
This is what most audiences did in the past ie before clubs when they met in homes, pubs, harvest suppers, et all.
the singers learned songs old and new which they liked and taylored a performance to suit the varied tastes of their listeners.


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Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: GUEST,Starship
Date: 09 Apr 20 - 11:50 AM

Found the below on the internet and it brought this thread to mind:

"Extinction is often caused by a change in environmental conditions. When conditions change, some species possess adaptations that allow them to survive and reproduce, while others do not. If the environment changes slowly enough, species will sometimes evolve the necessary adaptations, over many generations. If conditions change more quickly than a species can evolve, however, and if members of that species lack the traits they need to survive in the new environment, the likely result will be extinction." (from PBS)


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Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Apr 20 - 12:25 PM

It would be artificial to create the old ways Derrick and would defeat the purpose of taking folk music up in the first place
To do so would be to fossilise the music which would almost certainly noy survive the presentt older generation
You are not seriously suggesting that youngsters gather at home and sing folk songs, are you ?
Pop songs are transient and seldom live their sell-by date
We are talking about the same people's culture, 'The Songs of the People' aren't we ?'
I'd have thought EFDSS were the l people to stand on the platform waving their rasen d'etré off into the sunset
Nobody would do that if they believed the genre unique and important
Once yopu believe that to be the case with folk song you don't attempt to tailor performances tyo suit anybody - you make the best job of what you have and hope it's good enough to draw new people to it

I know traditional song and music can work for the younger generation - I've only got to turn Irish television or radio to see and hear them wallowing in the largely unadulterated stuff - yes - and experimenting with it
It has now re-rooted here for at least another century I would guess
Jim


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Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: GUEST,kenny
Date: 09 Apr 20 - 12:59 PM

"Will folk clubs survive?
Yes, as long as people wish to meet and sing and play together".

You don't actually need a "Folk Club" to do that. Never have.


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Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Apr 20 - 01:27 PM

"You don't actually need a "Folk Club" to do that. Never have."
Well actually we have Kenny
When the club scene started folk song as a living art was as dead ass Monty Python's Parrot
It was preserved in aspic in books and an a few recordings but these were largely exhibition cases in all but a tiny handful of exceptions - it was doubtful if those within a few familiesd would survive that generation
It gave us an escape route from teh clutches of the 'Ink and Blue Toothbrushes' and all the other pap that was being foisted on us and gave us the opportunity to transform from passive bums on seats into creative and in some cases talented butterflies
I would come home from the docks, take off my overalls, wash and become someone else for a few hours - that gradually spread to take over my life
Apart from the responsibility some of us feel towards what we discovered, to rob our kids of the opportinities we had wold be pretty selfish
Jim


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Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: GUEST,Derrick
Date: 09 Apr 20 - 01:38 PM

Jim I am not advocating fossilisation of the genre,on the contrary,I am saying that is what happened before folk clubs were invented.
Folk clubs bring people who appreciate the music together to perform it and keep it alive.The music of the people was both old and new songs and the singers reflected that.
Your take the view that songs should be trad or written in the style of old songs if not they are dismissed as pop rubbish.
You say a song about farting in Church is a folk song if it was written by a local ,and say modern singers only write pop songs that will not last,smell the coffee millions of songs have died over time who ever wrote them.
The only songs which last for many years are the best of whatever genre they are.
Kenny of course you are right when you say that folk clubs aren't the only place that people can share music but it a place that many people do, another way to do keep it alive


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Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: Johnny J
Date: 09 Apr 20 - 01:56 PM

"When the club scene started folk song as a living art was as dead ass Monty Python's Parrot "

In Scotland and Ireland too(I believe), there was always music and song around. Perhaps not all of the variety which we (now) or the "folk Police" might approve but it was always there.

Of course, the folk revival and clubs were very important but there was still a form of "living tradition" going on in Scotland and I'm not just referring to the "White Heather" type of thing. Not that the latter was all that bad either. We had people like Robin Hall and Jimmy McGregor, The Corries, and quite a few more who actually predated the folk club scene although one or two clubs did emerge as early as the late fifties.

It's quite possible that folk and traditional music might have taken off in the sixties in some other way if folk clubs hadn't existed. It has certainly flourished and evolved in other areas in recent years beyond the club scene.

Of course, how the music develops won't necessarily suit everyone but folk clubs are only a part it.


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Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: GUEST,akenaton
Date: 09 Apr 20 - 03:00 PM

John in the early sixties in rural Scotland there were no "Folk Clubs" We were known as "The Alba Folk Club" but there was no "club" ingredient, we were in truth a weekly organised concert of folk music, a few big name artists, a group, a couple of local amateurs and a huge quantity of hard liquor. These nights went on from eight o clock till sometimes the wee small hours, Even the bigger names loved the large audience, several hundred, and the opportunity to polish up their "patter". They were well paid for the effort most of them put into their performances, but these crowds did not come to be "educated, indoctrinated, or lectured", they came to have a bloody good night out through involving themselves in the music and engaging the big names in some hilarious banter. It was all about involvement, but todays population have other lonelier means of being involved.


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Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Apr 20 - 03:05 PM

"folk Police"
I swore |I wouldn't respond yto this insulting behavior - how world you respond if I refererd you to an anti-folk fascist ?
Folk song had died in Scotland too - the BBC set themselves the task of capturing what was left largely from from elderly people who were remembering what their parents and grandparents taught them - the main exception being the Travellers
Even in the Hebrides, Lomax and Ennis had to persuade the lady waulkers to pretend to be waulking the tweed
Maccoll was actually busking with Scots Ballads and songs in Gaelic outside Manchester cinemas in the thirties, but he was not part of a living singing tradition
Dead as a doornail despite the unqualified claims of our insulting friend
The lver for the club scene was a conscious effort by a few dedicated people, (now largely reviled by lesser mortals) using the findings of the BBC team
one of the great leaps forward was 'The Song Carriers' which turned the retirements of 'The Folk Boom' into a serous movement
Bert ws doing his best to ling British folk song with its international cousins - wonderful days when we midgets were riding on the shoulders of giants like MacColl, Lloyd, Parker, Lomax, Goldstein, Henderson, Norman Buchan.... and thankful for the lift
Where have all the heroes gone !!!
McGregor came tio folk in the early 1960s when he teamed up with Robin hall according to a talk he gave at Keele - up to that he was a trainee potter and a teacher, if memory serves
The Corries were formed around the same time, during the boom and only lasted six years

"You say a song about farting in Church is a folk song"
That was a quote by an old man who described the hundreds of anaonymous songs being made throughout Ireland and taking root for a time in the rural towns
They hardly survived the memory o the events they described, but they fitted any definition I've ever come cross of folk songs - they represented a largely lost folk repertoire
Ireland hasd a living Tradition up to the 40s until Church and State combined with the Dance Halls act, which killed off most home-made singing and music artificially   
In England our folk repertoire was largely as dead as a dodo
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Apr 20 - 03:48 PM

The Corries only lasted six years? Ach well.


Ake,

I believe Scotland's first clubs might have been The Crown and/or The Buffs in Edinburgh circa 1958 but many others soon followed during the sixties.


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Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: GUEST,Johnny J
Date: 09 Apr 20 - 03:50 PM

Oops, last post was mine


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Subject: RE: Will folk clubs survive
From: GUEST,akenaton
Date: 09 Apr 20 - 04:50 PM

Hi John, I believe the Edinburgh University Club was pretty early but were they actual clubs or run as concert nights like ours?
I think I told you already, I have old video/DVD from the Pleasance featuring Silly wizard, Martin Simpson June Tabor the Macs and several others


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