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BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt

Dave the Gnome 22 Mar 20 - 11:57 AM
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Subject: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 22 Mar 20 - 11:57 AM

This is the last thread I will start on this subject. If those intent on shutting down any such discussion succeed in closing this one too, well done. You will have won and I hope you will be happy with that hollow victory.

To everyone else I can only repeat the previous advice. Don't troll. Don't flame bait. Don't respond to trolls and baiters. Politicians are fair game for criticism as long as it is not hateful, racist or sexist. Not that anyone in power will take notice of or even read a minority interest tiny forum. Other Mudcat members and others interested in folk music do read it though so be civil with each other.

Ok. That out of the way, let us begin.

I am quite impressed with the way Rishi Sunak comes across. Ok, I know he is a Tory and as such is probably against what I support but at least he comes across as professional and caring. I think Boris needs to watch out. Beside Sunak he looks like a 5 year old playing at being a statesman. Just my opinion of course.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Mar 20 - 12:08 PM

Not just your opinion. It's mine too. And it's well worth reading Marina Hyde's Guardian article, the one that BWM referred to. It's fine to defend Johnson, but the groundswell I'm picking up on this is a general feeling that events constantly overtake him and that he's doing a very shoddy and indecisive job. That compounds the terrible damage that ten years of Toryism have done to the NHS, and that will come back to bite him in the weeks to come.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 22 Mar 20 - 12:14 PM

I agree too about Rishi Sunak. I see a PM in the making there. Hopefully very, very soon.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: DMcG
Date: 22 Mar 20 - 12:18 PM

And mine. I think a current article by Andrew Rawnsley is worth a read as well. Picking a couple of paragraphs out for people who don't want to read the whole thing:


For government and voters alike, this crisis is a rushed tutorial in the case for the active and well-resourced state. Only government can take the exceptional measures required to curtail human activity in the hope that it will curb the spread of infection. Only government has the capacity to effectively perform as an insurer of last resort for the huge number of companies facing extinction unless they receive state aid. Only government can provide a safety net for workers deprived of the ability to earn their living because they are ill or trying to do the right thing by isolating themselves or because their employer is in trouble.
Welfare is bad. Balance the books. It is not the role of government to bail out failing companies. All those beliefs long worshipped in the churches of conservatism are being sacrificed in the fierce urgency of the now

….

While it is far too early to make any confident predictions about the longterm ways in which this crisis will reshape society, it has already upended many of the assumptions that have governed politics here and elsewhere for decades. It is hard to believe that a once-in-a-century event will not have some once-in-a-century consequences.



The actions that Rishi Sunak is taking are in many ways things you would expect from a left-wing stable, not a right-wing, or even a centralist one.

Many predicted the death of Labour after the last election (for good or ill). It is possible that the state of politics after this will be one where, for a time at least, the old labels mean nothing, and we end up with two quite different parties to the ones we are used to. (As long as FPTP continues, it will be essentially two parties.)


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 22 Mar 20 - 12:28 PM

Couldn’t agree more, DMcG. Johnson is slowly becoming an irritant and an irrelevance - he certainly is not displaying the qualities we have a right to expect of a Leader.

Methinks his time is drawing to a close.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Iains
Date: 22 Mar 20 - 01:29 PM

No messing about with Boris!
Clear, decisive action in response to a crisis.

https://news.sky.com/story/coronavirus-extraordinary-uk-effort-to-produce-thousands-more-ventilators-11961559


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 22 Mar 20 - 02:02 PM

Good article about how industry is pulling out the stops to produce respirators. No mention of BoJo being decisive or otherwise.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Donuel
Date: 22 Mar 20 - 02:08 PM

Angela Mercle has the virus, so does the wife of the Canadian PM, US Senator Rand Paul has it too. Fearless leader...


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Iains
Date: 22 Mar 20 - 02:11 PM

Who was this then? the invisible man?
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/health-service-will-buy-as-many-ventilators-as-you-can-build-boris-johnson-tells-manufacturer


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Iains
Date: 22 Mar 20 - 02:13 PM

Merkel has gone into quarantine after being informed that a doctor who administered a vaccine to her has tested positive for the Covid-19


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 22 Mar 20 - 02:31 PM

If I were a tory activist..

Boris was a godsend populist front man figurehead to win an election..

I would have selected him to lead and win a tory govt in power.

Then I would have waited for the earliest inevitable opportunity to replace him with a real politician,
seriously capable of being a dependable long term prime minister...

But then Covid comes out of the blue...!!!

[..and Gove and Mogg are nowhere to be seen, quietly plotting...???]


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Mar 20 - 02:35 PM

"If I were a tory activist.."
"Dumb dee diddy diddy diddy diddy dumb"
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 22 Mar 20 - 02:41 PM

Jim - you beat me to it.. now you have to write that entire song...


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Mar 20 - 02:57 PM

't's all I know
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Donuel
Date: 22 Mar 20 - 02:59 PM

Trump's campaign song came from the UK

yu cant alwys gt what you wahnt


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Iains
Date: 22 Mar 20 - 03:00 PM

If I were a Labour activist I would be looking for a leader!!


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 22 Mar 20 - 03:06 PM

Jim - looking at the lyrics to the original song..

They don't really need much modification..


So I'm sure it must have been done by some comic folkie sometime before...???


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 22 Mar 20 - 03:10 PM

Speaking from a serious standpoint..

It's much easier for folks to be a tory than a compassionate altruistic lefty...

I'm sure I wrote a degree essay about that nearly 4 decades ago...


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 22 Mar 20 - 03:51 PM

Iains, the second link goes to a not found message. Regardless of that, your first link still does not mention BoJo as implied.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Mar 20 - 03:52 PM

"So I'm sure it must have been done by some comic folkie sometime before.."
We can but try - 'Tis humble, but 'tis mine own

If I were a Tory activist
Dumb de diddy, dum dee diddy, dumb
I would kick Barmy Boris up the arse,
And tell Pritty Awful that her bullying's a farce
And send Creepy Cummings to The Tower

Needs work, but it's a start
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 22 Mar 20 - 04:31 PM

Needs a lot of work. The first line is three syllables too long.
If I was a rich man (6 syllables)
If I were a tory (also 6 syllables). The 'activist' part just doesn't fit.

I still remember some Irish scouts, at an international Scout camp in the Netherlands (1970s?) singing:
If I was a rich man,
diddle iddle iddle iddle iddle iddle iddle um
All day long I'd fiddle with me bum,
If I was a wealthy man - Hoi

Must be the folk process :)


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Mar 20 - 07:45 PM

Reminds me of the Father Ted episode, repeated last night, in which Ted kicked the bishop up the erse, then had to deny it until a photo of the act was projected large on the wall of the house...bloody genius...


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Mar 20 - 03:21 AM

I'm afraid we have to be careful of overstepping the mark lads
At a time when the world is in lock-down and we are all worrying about our future, the moderators are, unbelievably. shutting down threads they don't approve of - what next !!!!
We'd better stick to what theey approve of or we won't be able to talk to each other and turn to our kitchen walls for diversion
Sorry for the diversion
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Iains
Date: 23 Mar 20 - 03:32 AM

While the lefties have a fine old time writing songs disparaging the extremely popular PM (yougov poll - more popular than Maggie Thatcher)

let us study the leader of the opposition:
1)He led his party to the most crushing defeat since 1935.
2)He made the position of Boris unassailable
3)Despite almost total obliteration at the polls herefuses to reesign.
4)Despite government and medical advice to stay at home and self isolate             like all his age group, he prats around the public stage confirming the public's view of him as a clown
5)Can you imagine the complete and utter shambles that would now result had labour been elected?


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Mar 20 - 03:42 AM

"While the lefties have a fine old time writing songs disparaging "
The above goes to you Iains
Your continuously aggressive tone has closed more threads than it has allowed to exist
That you can continue it at a time when we are all worrying about our futures is beyond belief
Politicians have always fair game - that you should turn on your fellow posters.... goes without saying
Give it a rest, if only for the sake of allowing these discussions to continue
Jim Carroll

If you don't want to talk to him, Jim, ignore him. It's too much work to pull out the fighting words in these thread. Move along, there is nothing to see here. ---mudelf in isolation


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Mr Red
Date: 23 Mar 20 - 04:35 AM

Beside Sunak he looks like a 5 year old playing at being a statesman.

Would it be disingenuous of me to point out 'King Boris is breeding a few of those sorts to surround himself with! Having said that - there are plenty of proto-PMs positioning themselves who we should be alarmed about. Boris is a bit of a maverick (aka turncoat) so conventional tactics tend to run off him.

Frankly he is out of his depth with COVID-19 but he has experts and his current persona gives hope that he is listening to wise counsel, for once.

Sunak looks more like a steady hand, and boy do we need it right now. Boris has struck lucky yet again.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Mar 20 - 04:45 AM

"Sunak looks more like a steady hand,"
Makes sense to me, that the US had someone similar at this time
The aggressiveness towards China by referring to this disaster as "The Chinese Epidemic, far from encouraging international co-operation, is far more likely to a minute or so to the 'Doomsday clock', which already stands 100 seconds to midnight
The Science fiction writers must be burning the midnight oil chuirning out their 'after the unthinkable happens' novels
Frightening times with a moron, a glove puppet and 'Free Russia' at the wheel
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: DMcG
Date: 23 Mar 20 - 04:47 AM

08:32
British rail franchise agreements suspended
The British government is effectively nationalising the state’s railways for a temporary period, it has been announced.
Rail franchise agreements are to be suspended to avoid train companies collapsing due to the coronavirus, the Department for Transport (DfT) has announced.

===

Again, a far more left wing - dare one say Corbynite? - approach than one would expect.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Iains
Date: 23 Mar 20 - 04:53 AM

Meanwhile government medical advice is to maintain social distancing and if over 70 or vulnerable self isolate.

Corbyn(70) is wilfully ignoring this request, and following his example: Photos in papers show crowds sunning themselves blithely ignoring requests to social distance.

Someone needs to be made a public example of to enforce the rules.
In certain admnistrations they would be in jail

No social distancing means needless transmission, more strain on the NHS.

What a stunning role model the labour leader is!


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: peregrina
Date: 23 Mar 20 - 05:27 AM

It is the time for the birth of compassion and time for the awareness that truly, we are all in the same boat: our survival depends on taking care of each other and sharing. Some cultures have remembered this interdependency more than others. There will be no survival without it.

I can't help thinking of King Lear in the storm scene, and the hard birth of compassion when he himself is at the mercy of the elements. Yes, we are the 'poor bare forked animal' with no claws, no fur, and no way to survive without the things that we provide for each other. The essential workers, those who restock supermarket shelves, drive the provision trucks, clean, collect garbage, and otherwise ensure that we are not raving naked and hungry unprotected from nature, are the foundation of our shared existence. I would like to force Boris Johnson, Priti Patel, and a large segment of other Tories and US GOP to study this speech.

Poor naked wretches, whereso'er you are,
That bide the pelting of this pitiless storm,
How shall your houseless heads and unfed sides,
Your looped and windowed raggedness, defend you
From seasons such as these?

Oh, I have ta'en
Too little care of this! Take physic, pomp.
Expose thyself to feel what wretches feel,
That thou mayst shake the superflux to them
And show the heavens more just


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: DMcG
Date: 23 Mar 20 - 05:31 AM

Wise words there, peregrina.

When it comes to sending messages, I was struck during the last PM's broadcast that whoever laid out the room did not seem to be leaving 2m between all the chairs.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Mar 20 - 05:38 AM

INTERESTING LESSONS
INTERESTING COMPARISON
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Mar 20 - 05:50 AM

Social distancing is currently just advice, not "rules." Once it becomes "rules," then people could presumably be "thrown in jail" for breaking them. Of course, it would need to be one of those medieval dungeons so that transgressors would be isolated from other less evil prisoners such as murderers, armed robbers and terrorists...


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 23 Mar 20 - 05:58 AM

I must say that I think I have seen it all now. Corbyn's fault that corvidiots are flooding parks and beaches! I tried, I really tried to be civil and reasonable but it is obviously pointless. I'm out of here.

I can only suggest that if anyone wants to discuss politics in an adult manner, then do not try to do it here. The wreckers have won. Leave them to it.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: DMcG
Date: 23 Mar 20 - 05:59 AM

This morning my wife said that when she went for a walk yesterday with her neighbour they kept 6 millimetres apart.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Iains
Date: 23 Mar 20 - 06:13 AM

Social distancing is currently just advice, not "rules." Once it becomes "rules," then people could presumably be "thrown in jail"

With the transmissability of this virus being higher than the common flu social distancing can be a matter of life or death.
Legislation cannot legislate for stupidity.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Mar 20 - 06:19 AM

"The wreckers have won."
They always do when they are allowed to


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Iains
Date: 23 Mar 20 - 06:19 AM

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/coronavirus-bill-what-it-will-do/what-the-coronavirus-bill-will-do


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Mar 20 - 07:11 AM

Well you can legislate to get people away from public places. It's happening in Spain and it's happening in Italy, as photos and videos in the media of deserted streets show. And what those photos and videos show is that here in the UK the government is way behind the curve. Too little, maybe too late. A massive problem we spotted, driving through Bude yesterday, was little crowds of teenagers in close proximity. We're getting lots of "advice" about how to keep the little darlings gainfully occupied at home from the likes of cosy, middle-class Woman's Hour, etc., but many parents will just let the kids go feral unless there's a lot more clout in the approach (yes, I know it was a sunny Sunday, but the weather's good, there are seven days in the week and schools are all out). It wasn't just kids either. We need stiff rules, not warm advice, from now on.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: DMcG
Date: 23 Mar 20 - 07:19 AM

There is the suggestion that the government will amend their proposed legislation so the proposed rules have to be renewed every six months, instead of a two year sunset clause. That seems sensible to me: there seem to be few objections to the proposals themselves, but a lot of concern that they are not being kept longer than necessary.

I read somewhere that Hungary is proposing similar powers but with no sunset clause at all.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Mar 20 - 07:29 AM

Just heard that, as Scotland seems to have been less effected, there's a rush to move up there
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Rain Dog
Date: 23 Mar 20 - 07:30 AM

Why do you bother Dave the Gnome?

There never seems to be much discussion on these threads. It seems to be a person or number of persons of a somewhat left of centre and a few people of a right of centre view, arguing the toss about SFA. The general view expressed here seems to be "if you did not vote the same way as us then you are a brainwashed twat, etc etc." Let us be thankful that the majority of people in this country do not slavishly follow any particular party line.

A good while back someone asked if anyone talked about these topics in the pub? From the personas displayed here by some of you, I cannot imagine you having a chat in a pub with someone who voted differently. if I met some of you in a pub and you carried on in the same manner that you post here, I would just walk away from you EVEN if you expressed some views that I agreed with.

I did go to the pub before the close down, and I did talk to others who did not vote the same way as me. No one was harmed as a result of those conversations. With any ballot you just have to choose the one box to tick, even if you might not agree with every single thing which that party/choice might stand for.

We live in interesting times. An article that was online a good few weeks back, said that in the last election here in the UK, people might have voted for Boris but have got Corbyn instead. Just look at the last budget.

I hope that you and your families all stay well in the coming months. We all need people to remain calm and moderate in their behaviour. This morning I was outside Morrisons, which was closed until 08.00 to the general public. Once they opened the doors to us, people did not rush in, they just went about their shopping in a normal manner. Bread and milk were available but some feckers had taken all the eggs.

Stay safe.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Mar 20 - 07:52 AM

THEY WOULD SAY THAT, WOULDN'T THEY ?
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 23 Mar 20 - 07:52 AM

If there is one good thing to come out of all this with apparent food shortages and delivery slots, is that we may lose a little excess weight!!


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Iains
Date: 23 Mar 20 - 08:16 AM

On a Zoom video-conferencing call with young Labour Party members on Friday evening, party chairman Ian Lavery repeatedly claimed that the devastating Coronavirus crisis offered “a great opportunity” for the Labour Party to advance politically. He thought he was talking privately to activists.

    “By the way when something like this happens, we’re going to see lots of our own dying as a consequence. But, you know apart from that, it’s going to give the fantastic battalion of Labour Party members, community champions out there a great opportunity of showing how Labour, and why Labour, is best when it gets on the front foot and best when it gets people together.

    We need to make sure that we do that, and community organising what a great opportunity it’s going to give us.“

It is an understatement to say this is beyond crass, this crisis is not a partisan opportunity, it is a global tragedy.Lavery should be ashamed of himself, happily discussing the political benefits of this tragedy in private


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Subject: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 23 Mar 20 - 08:36 AM

Saturday night the BBC news chided the public for ignoring social distancing advice, and going out on unnecessary trips, and failing to keep the required two metres apart.
So why did they include 'straight to camera' reports filmed in High Streets, and on Parliament Square? I assume these included the journalist, cameraman, soundman, and possibly others working closely together, outside. The reports could have been filmed in the studio, or read by the main newsreader.
Are the BBC being hypocritical in this?


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: peregrina
Date: 23 Mar 20 - 08:38 AM

Iains, we have a chance now to see what's important

It's more important to me, personally, today, to see what kindness I can put back into the world, whether I can stay safe and share or help others. We are all in this together. That's why I stopped back in here after years away, to acknowledge a community and place for dialogue.

When someone makes posts like yours I resort to the saying taught to me by older friends:
Consider the source.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 23 Mar 20 - 08:43 AM

I can imagine history exam questions in the future - "Compare the effect of the Corona virus with that of the 1918 flu epidemic on the world balance of power" !!


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Mar 20 - 09:28 AM

Making this a left-right battle is utterly (about as tupod as blaming Corbyn for overcrowded beaches, but not quite)
We criticise what is being done, those who disagree refuse to respond who speculate what Labour would have done if they were in charge
We all know which party supports a degree of equality of treatment and which favours the privileged - even those who uncritically support this lot describe demands for equal treatment a "envy politics" and compare even-handed medical treatment as "Communism" and argue that "it will not work"
So both on a practical and philosophical level - "no contest", I suggest

There is no reason to believe that reports on Cummings sidelining the elderly was not an accurate assessment of how this Government thinks - their supporters seem to have 'taken the fifth' on that one - a silence which speaks volumes

"1918 flu epidemic"
"And not just health systems were different, but also the health and living conditions of the global population. The 1918 hit a world population of which a very large share was extremely poor – large shares of the population were undernourished, in most parts of the world the populations lived in very poor health, and overcrowding, poor sanitation and low hygiene standards were common. Additionally the populations in many parts of the world were weakened by a global war. Public resources were small and many countries had just spent large shares of their resources on the war.
While most of the world is much richer and healthier now, the concern today too is that it is the poorest people that are going to be hit hardest by the COVID-19 outbreak.22"
NOTHING REALLY CHANGES
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 23 Mar 20 - 10:07 AM

I've not watched the news yet today...

Is parliament and the Lords empty...???

How many of our MPs and Lords are 'over 70'...

Is domin.. errmm.. boris now running the country by skype from his sofa...???


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 23 Mar 20 - 04:52 PM

I thought Johnson came over very well for a change in making the announcement for lockdown.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 23 Mar 20 - 05:12 PM

But who was under the table operating him like basil brush, or sooty and sweep...???


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 23 Mar 20 - 05:17 PM

Interesting!!


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Mar 20 - 05:30 PM

Oi, pfr, I can see the lower reaches of the Bristol Channel from my house (when I want to act posh, I tell people it's the broad Atlantic...) I don't want to see corpses floating by...

Just give us a listen, mods. We're a bunch of hairy-arsed Brit twats all right, but we're not brain-dead and we can see what's going on. And,though you can never, ever accept it, for reasons best known to yourselves, there is no cabal, no conspiracy, no usual suspects. I have this half-arsed theory that we don't have proper folkie forums here because "the English folk scene" (as opposed to the actual music...) tends to live up its own self-regarding bottom, and it's best viewed from a distance...There have been lively forums in Irish music, such as Jezza's TheSession and the moribund Irtrad, then there's that fish 'n' chipple of yours (yawn...)


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Donuel
Date: 23 Mar 20 - 05:56 PM

Boris seems to get it, 3 months late. People are dieing here at a hundred a day and accelerating.

If one compares the 'decorum' in your Parliment with the US Congress you will understand the culture shock Americans can have with Brits.

The Pound is now at $1.15


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Iains
Date: 24 Mar 20 - 03:39 AM

Back to the subject:
Clear    incisive action off Boris last night. real Churchillian behaviour. What a hero!
1)First he asked nicely for people to behave themselves and obey social distancing. He was ignored.
2)Now he has waved the big stick with the most draconian measures ever seen in peacetime Britain.
3)If his    edicts are still ignored the next escalation will be the army on the streets and   not to carry little old ladies shopping.

If a success, these measures will start to show results in another two weeks.

I   think the behaviour shown by a large sector of the public clearly
indicates why responses have to be staged and commensurate with what the dubious data dictates.


https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/lessons-from-past-outbreaks-could-help-fight-the-coronavirus-pandemic1/

Lockdown has   worked in China, S.Korea and apparently the rate of infection is slowing in Spain.

As a total aside: It is interesting the actress Remainer-luvvie Emma Thompson, who in February won a lot of publicity by moving to Venice with her husband in the wake of Brexit, has fled back to a cottage and barn in Scotland after northern Italy became a no-go zone due to Coronavirus.
One can almost understand Emma’s decision, as the media’s advice on running away to second homes has been far from clear. On Saturday, the Daily Mail published the now-deleted article, “Britain’s brilliant boltholes: The best places to revel in splendid isolation, from the lonely Lancashire hills to the Welsh wilderness”, even recommending activities in case rural boredom sets in. Such behaviour is strictly contrary to official government advice (besides hacking off and overloading the medical facilities of the locals)


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: DMcG
Date: 24 Mar 20 - 03:55 AM

As I made a mess of saying yesterday, I am quite significantly affected (indirectly) by this lockdown, as three family weddings in the next few months are cancelled - even if the restrictions are relaxed in 3 weeks I don't see them being relaxed sufficiently for those to take place.

Nevertheless, I think it was a necessary action.

Equally, I don't think they go far enough. I haven't seen what is happening in the shops today, but I expect them to be stripped like nothing before. And that will continue for a few days. I don't really see how we prevent that without formal rationing. Just like the 'advisory' distance was ignored by a sizeable number of people, attempts by the shops to limit sales per customer are too easily cheated.

Some solution to the lost income for zero hour contract workers will also have to be found.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Iains
Date: 24 Mar 20 - 04:19 AM

This legislation may have had an embyonic existance is some dusty Ministry canbinet, but until dusted off and brought into play all sorts of essential items will have been overlooked or tackled maladroitly. Clarity is only achieved when shortcomings are recognised and responded to. This will not happen overnight.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Rain Dog
Date: 24 Mar 20 - 05:27 AM

You all have the choice of setting up your own boards. How many of you have done that?

It is just a handful of people, not even two handfuls, who tend to post to these political threads. To what end? Yours (and mine) amusement? I certainly don't think anyone ventures down here for political enlightenment. If they did I would be worried about them.

I came here originally for the music section. I do read quite a few of the posts there and I appreciate the information that I have gained from quite a few of the threads. Even there so many of the threads end in the usual argumentative tedium, trotted out by the usual suspects. I simply choose to scroll past those posts. The shame is that some of the usual suspects also post stuff that I do enjoy and find of interest. Just a matter of sorting the wheat from the chaff.

We live in interesting times. I am sure that we all have more important things to concern ourselves with. I hope that you and yours stay safe.

Now, give us a song will ya'?

PS

Please ensure that you wash your hands after reading this post.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Joe Offer
Date: 24 Mar 20 - 05:49 AM

Far be it from me to hold punkfolkrocker up as a paragon of virtue, but he is. He's feisty, and he makes it known when he doesn't like something. But he doesn't get nasty or angry. He always has a good sense of humor, and he's often hilarious. And he seems to have a good time here.

If we all could lighten up and follow the sterling example of PFR, I think we'd all have a good time here.

I notice that there are very few gentle people and almost no women who participate in these long, angry threads. I think the animosity scares them away. People often tell me that they don't come to Mudcat because they don't like the animosity. I feel bad about that.

Joe


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Iains
Date: 24 Mar 20 - 06:20 AM

PFR takes a position I may not always agree with but he manages to put it across without incendiary unsupported statements.
Perhaps a lesson for many!


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Iains
Date: 24 Mar 20 - 07:23 AM

and now for something completely different.
The senseless British tourist seen being arrested in a Facebook video which has gone viral has been identified as Labour councillor, Unison staff member, and three time Labour Party parliamentary candidate, Joanne Rust. Last week she was dramatically arrested having been dragged from a swimming pool in Tenerife for breeching Spain’s strict hotels quarantine rules.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Mar 20 - 07:30 AM

You could start by stamping on that post, mods. We know precisely what he's up to, and I reckon you do too.


No, we don't. Not without looking it up. Most of this British fighting words stuff is gibberish on this side of the pond. That's why you would do better to ignore than to expect we know what the hell you are fighting about.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Joe Offer
Date: 24 Mar 20 - 07:33 AM

Steve, am I correct in thinking that both The Session and Gaughan's forum were members-only? Our tradition is to be an open forum. We changed to members-only in the BS forum only reluctantly, and we won't do that in the music forum.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 24 Mar 20 - 07:45 AM

It has to be said yet again, but the one and only way to defeat the trouble maker is to completely ignore him.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Iains
Date: 24 Mar 20 - 07:52 AM

Well Mr Shaw without starting WW3 you own coterie is very good at posting all sorts of unsubstantiated whispers and rumours undermining the government of the day. IF everone listed the facts on which they base their arguments the arguing would drop dramatically. You would be nonexistant for a start, having never constructed a link in your life. I present facts and interpretation of facts. How many posts by the left have been purely ad hominem attacks because the argument could not be refuted.
I suggest any contentious post without supporting facts immediately generates a week suspension.
My post above is documented, proven and with video evidence. The fact you do not like the substance of the post does not alter the fact it is true. Live with it.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Joe Offer
Date: 24 Mar 20 - 07:59 AM

I don't know what the hell Iains is talking about, but seems to me that it is purely political, which isn't prohibited here.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Iains
Date: 24 Mar 20 - 08:20 AM

Joe: FYI

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8144171/British-woman-dragged-Tenerife-pool-police-hard-left-unionist-rabble-rouser.htm
and

https://order-order.com/2020/03/24/labour-candidate-arrested-spanish-swimming-pool-breeching-quarantine/


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZE5UmxWMOPs


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Mar 20 - 09:33 AM

As we appear to be stuck with this feller, parhaps it's worth reminding people of this fact
He is an open supporter, if not a member, of a Neo-Nazi organisation and
has advocated in support of the criminal behaviour of the leader of one
of the Britain’s leading ultra-right groups, ‘The English Defence League’
When Robinson was jailed several years ago for attempting to ‘pervert the
course of justice’ by interfering in a trial that was taking place in the
British courts, Iains began publicising a petition circulating on the
internet to free him
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Jeri
Date: 24 Mar 20 - 09:40 AM

Gaughan's forum was members only, and you had to be approved to get in.
What's ironic about that is that Dick once posted in Mudcat that he wouldn't join because he didn't like cookies. Things change as people adapt.

This place was created to discuss music, not provide an arena to fight in, which is undoubtedly why the moderation doesn't make those fighters happy. I doubt that ANY would. It's a terrible shame that there's no place on the Internet to discuss British politics.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Mar 20 - 10:05 AM

Sorry Jeri, I don't understand
Yes, Mudcat was created to discuss music, but the organised was astute enough to realise that some of us had other interests and was generous enough to allow us a place to discuss it here
That you consider healthy, sometimes enthusiastic debate as "fighting" is your prerogative. of course; some of us "healthy, sometimes enthusiastic debate"
It's what happens hen people take their interests seriously
There is a great deal of healthy, sometimes enthusiastic debate and politics, football.... ans all other aspects of life in Britain at present
Myby the Trump administration has managed to stamp it out in the US - I wouldn't put it past their trying !!
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 24 Mar 20 - 10:09 AM

This place was created to discuss music, not provide an arena to fight in

Join in a thread about source singers, Walter Pardon, Ewan MacColl, the quality of modern folk clubs or "what is folk?", and you can cover both bases. (Add your own topics to the list as you feel fit!)

DC


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Mar 20 - 10:43 AM

Joining the Gaughan forum was no harder than joining any other forum. One massive difference is that anonymity wasn't allowed, though you could still use your pseudonym. I utterly agree with that (and have always used my real name on any forum I've been on). I hear mucho bullshit from people who think so much of themselves that they feel that "for professional reasons/insert own excuse" they must remain anonymous. Maybe there are one or two that that might justifiably apply to, people who have been personally targeted by past trolling, for example, but anonymity on this forum has all too frequently been used by trolls, and there are many well-known musicians and song-collectors, etc., here who use their real names cheerfully. The mods should have a straight line to every member's real name and email address, and, if you don't want to join, tough luck. You have no good reason not to do so. It honestly doesn't hurt, does it?Several good threads above the line have been wrecked by a stalking and garrulous ex-member in recent weeks, but the mods prefer to blame Jim instead. Of course, members-only wouldn't solve every problem here. Back to my post on consistent moderation then...And do try to get on with each other better...


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Mar 20 - 12:00 PM

Yup - that's the one
"A petition has been set up by his supporters on change.org calling for Theresa May to free him.
"Tommy Robinson has been arrested and jailed for reporting on Muslim grooming gangs," it says."
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 24 Mar 20 - 01:35 PM

I've never been called a "paragon" before..

I suppose I'd better look it up in a dictionary before I get kneejerk reaction offended,
and complain to a mod...???


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Mar 20 - 01:43 PM

"paragon - "I suppose I'd better look it up in a dictionary"
Not sure, but I think it might be referring to a missing British soldier during the Northern Ireland conflict :-)
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Iains
Date: 25 Mar 20 - 07:55 AM

Prince Charles tests positive for Coronavirus


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 25 Mar 20 - 10:32 AM

Well that might solve that inconvenient problem for royalty fans
who'd prefer William next...

..useful silent targeted assassins, are pandemics...


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Mar 20 - 11:05 AM

Could have been worse - he might have had Andrews problems and caught something else
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 25 Mar 20 - 11:06 AM

I've never been called a "paragon" before..

I suppose I'd better look it up in a dictionary


A Paragon is a Clifford Essex banjo. The tenor versions have some popularity in Irish music, probably helped by Barney McKenna of the Dubliners playing one for years.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Workingtonman
Date: 25 Mar 20 - 11:18 AM

i don't know if charles has had much contact with his parents but wonder if they are unwell. i don't really watch tv but have not heard much from the queen - it is her role to appeal to and try to reassure the country at times like this. and it wouldn't do any harm if some of the younger members were helping with the national effort. forgive me if i've missed it but they could be doing a lot for people who like that sort of activity


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Mar 20 - 11:53 AM

The yarn goes that he last saw mother on the 12th but has only been infectious since the 13th. Lucky queer old dean, eh? :-)


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Mar 20 - 12:01 PM

And I note that many a big world leader thinks that Boris has screwed up big time on this pandemic. Too little, too late, lessons not learned, bollox-speak about getting it done in twelve weeks (stick that on a red bus, Boris), NHS seriously run down after ten years of Toryism, can't get the kit to hospitals, can't get more than a next-to-useless 5000 tests a day done (even his old mucker Jeremy *unt - with apologies to Jim Naughtie - has bollocked him for that)... Nearly got me 'ead ripped off for saying that this government is killing people, didn't I...


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Mar 20 - 12:12 PM

"The tenor versions have some popularity in Irish music"
Not in Clare they don't
The co-founder of the Willie Clancy Summer School, the late Muirís Rochain was pressurised into eventually including them in the School after 40 years
He reluctantly agreed saying "We'll give them a try, but we don't want to encourage them buggers too much, do we"
Lovely man
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 25 Mar 20 - 12:47 PM

pfr:
Is that the same BBC News who were saying 3 hours ago that: Coronavirus: NHS capacity 'won't be breached at national level' on their online news channel?: Here

If they've repudiated that claim since, they haven't let their online news channel know.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: DMcG
Date: 25 Mar 20 - 12:49 PM

UK coronavirus mass home testing to be made available 'within days'

As yet, we have little detail of this, but I hope the instructions that come with it as absolutely clear, because misuse could lead to a massive rise in infections. I am basing this on what little has been said so far, but it could change when we get more detail.

I fear that a lot of people who have a test that shows them to be clear will interpret that as meaning they can go out safely. The government and medics will really need to hammer home that is the exact opposite of how to understand the test. The 'best' result is that is shows you have the antibodies, at which you then stay in isolation for another two weeks. Only then is it likely to be safe to go out.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 25 Mar 20 - 12:57 PM

Nigel - remind us if you are one of those ideologically motivated beeb bashers,
grateful for any opportunity to give the BBC a sly kicking...???

Iains - why would anyone in their right mind even think about Piss Morgan [spellcheck...???],
let alone mention him in this thread...

It actually might have been,
"Keith Neal, emeritus professor of epidemiology of infectious diseases, University of Nottingham"..
Though I'm not absolutely certain...?????????????????
Nottingham rings a bell for some reason..

btw.. the wife's joke was ok enough, but might get deleted here...


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Iains
Date: 25 Mar 20 - 12:58 PM

Last week, Ian Donald, Emeritus Professor at the University of Liverpool, shared a short thread on Twitter explaining why the Government’s approach could be very effective, while noting that it also had its risks.

Before tough measures were introduced, Mr Donald wrote: "The Government's strategy on coronavirus is more refined than those used in other countries and potentially very effective.

"But it is also riskier and based on a number of assumptions. They need to be correct, and the measures they introduce need to work when they are supposed to.

"A UK starting assumption is that a high number of the population will inevitably get infected whatever is done – up to 80 percent.

"As you can’t stop it, so it is best to manage it."

Looks like Dominic's request for freaks and weirdos had results. The accuracy and efficacy of their forecasting will be seen in coming days.

https://newslanes.com/coronavirus-action-plan-how-dominic-cummings-real-strategy-could-be-most-effective/


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Mar 20 - 01:17 PM

Johnson appears to be taking a leaf from Trump's book and running miles behind everybody else, then taking the credit for having thought of it first
Chetlenham was typical of the crassness of ignoring advice


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 25 Mar 20 - 01:44 PM

Nigel - remind us if you are one of those ideologically motivated beeb bashers,
grateful for any opportunity to give the BBC a sly kicking...???


I wasn't bashing the BBC, but pointing out that their current position (per their website) didn't agree with your memory of a quote you made which you admitted that you were unable to attribute.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 25 Mar 20 - 01:46 PM

DMcG:The government and medics will really need to hammer home that is the exact opposite of how to understand the test. The 'best' result is that is shows you have the antibodies, at which you then stay in isolation for another two weeks. Only then is it likely to be safe to go out.

I understood that once one had the virus (or antibodies showing one had had the virus) the quarantine time was 7 days. 14 days is for your family, who may still be incubating the virus.

100


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 25 Mar 20 - 01:54 PM

Nigel - it's real life as it unfolds..
Rolling news headlines interspersed with shoehorned in live interviews..
While home viewers are trying to digest 'latest' info and advice,
despite domestic distractions..
A headline reporting boris's bluff 'n' bollox from 3 or 4 hours ago,
may not have been updated as rapidly as you require...

btw.. are 24/7 news channels now operated by overwhelmed emergency skeleton teams,
just so they can even stay on air...

Well done Aunty Beeb, keep up the good work as well as possible
in these extraordinarily trying times...


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 25 Mar 20 - 01:59 PM

Nigel - BTW.. I never "admitted" anything - that's a naughty twist of emphasis by you..

I merely "accepted" I was unable to read the academic's name and University caption at that precise time...


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: DMcG
Date: 25 Mar 20 - 01:59 PM

Yes, Nigel, you are probably right that seven days will be enough. That will also be something I hope they make clear when they start rolling the test out. But it was more how people treat the 'all clear' that concerns me.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Iains
Date: 25 Mar 20 - 02:24 PM

1)Johnson appears to be taking a leaf from Trump's book and running miles behind everybody else, then taking the credit for having thought of it first
Chetlenham was typical of the crassness of ignoring advice

2) Mr Donald wrote: "The Government's strategy on coronavirus is more refined than those used in other countries and potentially very effective.
author number one qualifications ex sparky
author number 2 qualifications BA; MSc; PhD; CPsychol; AFBPsS. Professor Psychological Sciences(Emeritus) research; Behavioural factors in Anti-Microbial Resistance.

Well who to believe? Life is such a challenge at times!
Whose advice did Boris ignore? We look forward toyou offering enlightenment! Are you trying to say Boris ignored his own experts, or you feel your expert is more qualified? or are you saying you are more qualified tomake the judgement call.

You accept IPCC pres offerings as valid yet they are based on vastly more variables and models of proven uncertainty, or was that new runway in the Maldicves designed for flying submarines?


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Mar 20 - 02:25 PM

Trum seems to have contacted a brain-eating virus
Despite it being announced that the US is due to be the next epicentre of the spread he has annonced that he expects all the churches to be full at Easter in a few weeks time
He apparently has his advisers beside him at news conferences who immediately contradict what he has just said
The analysis is that he has decided to put the economy before the well-being of the American people
I hope to go his British poodle has instinct enough to head for the bushes
Were the Yanks so bad as to deserve a leader that bad - I always got on with the ones I met
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: gillymor
Date: 25 Mar 20 - 02:30 PM

A brain-eating virus would have starved to death in trump's cranium.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 25 Mar 20 - 02:31 PM

"Well who to believe? Life is such a challenge at times!
Whose advice did Boris ignore? We look forward toyou offering enlightenment! Are you trying to say Boris ignored his own experts, or you feel your expert is more qualified? or are you saying you are more qualified tomake the judgement call.

You accept IPCC pres offerings as valid yet they are based on vastly more variables and models of proven uncertainty, or was that new runway in the Maldicves designed for flying submarines?
"

if that's aimed at me..
you wasted your time, I'll ignore your attempt
to drag me into a pointless argument of your own concoction..

But if it was aimed at someone else.. good luck...

That's why I start my posts with:

"Name of mudcatter - well.. I disagree with your propaganda.. etc.. etc..."


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Mar 20 - 02:41 PM

"if that's aimed at me.."
It wasn't he seems to aim everything at whoever will listen in the vain hope somebody is
Or maybe that's the royal "we" - h seems to spend a great deal of time talking to himself nowadays - Baccy's right - about time
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Iains
Date: 25 Mar 20 - 02:58 PM

PFR you were the last person on my mind.
I tried to make the point not veryclearly that potentially the error bar on all the estimates is quite large. The data is patchy and some of doubtful validity. The superforecasting techniques apparently used by the government is supposedly a little more accurate forecasting tool that other techniques.
The over riding concern is to balance the needs of patients, the NHS and economy. The intention is not stop infection but control   the rate of spread. It is not an easy task as letting the economy sink into the ground also has an impact on mortality figures down the road. If facilities are swamped, pensioners will go to the wall, not because they are exopendable but because they will tie up vital resources for a time period that would probably treat 2 younger fitter patients.
These decisions are not easy and far from clear cut. This is completely outside the normal realms os experience and events require judgement calls on the fly. They will not all be correct when studied with hindsight. That is life.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 25 Mar 20 - 03:02 PM

"PFR you were the last person on my mind."

I'll happily accept that.. if Piers Morgan is nearer the front of your mind...


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 25 Mar 20 - 03:06 PM

Iains - That was a good post, and the Iains persona I can more positively relate to in debate...


Today's news of the covid death of a 21 year old UK woman with no underlying health problems,
is a significant cause for concern...


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Mar 20 - 05:01 PM

Well I may be out of date as I type this, but I understand that the death of the young woman "caused by coronavirus" is currently just a claim by her close family. Not saying it isn't true, but let's get confirmation of this before we start getting all scary about it.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Mar 20 - 07:09 PM

So BigEars gets a test, even though he's not in hospital, unlike everyone else not in hospital, and he's travelled to his second/third/fourth home, against all the advice about travelling to your second home that everyone else is expected to adhere to (we're almost at the point of throwing flour bombs at the selfish braindeads who have been coming to Cornwall in their droves in caravans, motor homes or to seek refuge in their second homes...). It's still good old little Britain, innit, one law for them, one for the plebs...


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Workingtonman
Date: 26 Mar 20 - 02:58 AM

'What are the safe distances for forelock-tugging, arse-licking, gun-loading and other personal services your majesties?'

'one doesn't bother with that nonsense, witchell'


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: BobL
Date: 26 Mar 20 - 03:30 AM

Trump seems to have contacted a brain-eating virus
To quote Dorothy Parker - "How can they tell?"


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: DMcG
Date: 26 Mar 20 - 04:00 AM

The performance of Nadhim Zahawi on Newsnight last night (12:08 minutes in) was frankly embarrassing. If that was supposed to reassure the government is on top of things, it failed dismally. You cannot agree to both the statements the UK has 8,000 ventilators and it has 12,000 unless you are able to explain the discrepancy, and he could not. And things went downhill from there, in my opinion. He was certainly unable to give confidence that we might have the ventilators in time for the anticipated peak in a few weeks time.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 26 Mar 20 - 06:44 AM

Steve Shaw's comments about 'big ears' may have some relevance, but they sound like sour grapes. In fact, identifying the Prince of Wales as 'big ears' suggests some degree of envy there.
The Telegraph yesterday made clear that he was due to be staying at Birkhall, and that, having been in close contact with Prince Albert of Monaco (already tested positive), he was right to be tested.
With health being a devolved matter in Scotland, the testing criteria there may differ from the criteria in England.
Telegraph


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Mar 20 - 07:00 AM

I'm very happy with the ears I've got, Nige.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Iains
Date: 26 Mar 20 - 08:17 AM

You cannot agree to both the statements the UK has 8,000 ventilators and it has 12,000 unless you are able to explain the discrepancy,
According to the Dpt. of Health and Social care the NHS currently possesses 5,000 adult ventilators and 900 child ventilators. Private health care has another 1200. These are figures from early March. A sorce quotes a capacity to build 400/week Hamilton Medical in Switzerland, but many of those will servuce existing contracts.
It is by no means clear where the additional 900/4900 have comefrom. Most military hospitals have closed but may supply a small number, perhaps another small number are stockpiled. With the situation in flux a definitive figure is impossible to derive, it likely changes by the day.
Yet more negativity from the usual.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: DMcG
Date: 26 Mar 20 - 08:28 AM

Not surprisingly, you miss the point. It was not up to you to explain the discrepancy. It was his job to explain the discrepancy. For example one possible explanation might have been - and I am not saying it is, but it could have been - "We have 8000 actively in use, and another 4,000 have been received into our distribution centres. They are going through the standard quality checks before going out to the wards. That process should be completed by the weekend."

A nice, clear account of the reason for two different figures. And any other reasonable explanation would have not only sufficed, but would have shown the government to be on top of the situation. Instead, they could not explain it and it is left to others to scrabble for ways that might - or might not - account for the difference.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Workingtonman
Date: 26 Mar 20 - 08:51 AM

while i have always been a red/green old peace and love type socialist i too love our countries. these are some of the things i love - pubs and how i can go into any or most, understand what the atmosphere is and behave accordingly, good beer, beautiful countryside especially in the highlands, people around small club football in particularly, but good football played well. and other niche interests of many older working men. music tradition, live music, festivals particularly, the radical tradition - george orwell,tony benn, michael foot to caroline lucas - socialist climbing and reading groups type of thing. our language and the literature that has come from it. ivor cutler and michael marra to karine polwart and richard thompson among many others. i love our dry wit and self deprecation and how we will never accept a fascist (in the last euro elections green mayor majid majid, muslim refugee was elected with over 200,000 votes while yaxley-lennon got 2/3 thousand.) or any self-important bull-shitter. i could go on as i'm boring myself - (though i'm sure you are all fascinated!) long and short of it is - i like just about everything except what comes from the tories and their war and royal family driven establishment - what they tell me is patriotism is vast inequalities and broken lives. telling a generation of our young men to walk in an orderly fashion toward german machine guns is not patritism - it is a hideous crime against our people that must never be forgotten or forgiven
blah...blah....bla...


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Mar 20 - 09:39 AM

"Covisiousness" of course - can't get my head around new words, as good as they are
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Iains
Date: 26 Mar 20 - 10:13 AM

The EU fiddles while Rome burns.

Von der Leyen
“The single market has to function,” she said.

“It is not good when a member state takes unilateral action. I have seen travel bans and controls put in place. But let’s look together… certain controls may be justified but action has to be proportionate.”

After trying to retain control over the United Kingdom’s state aid rules in post-Brexit talks, the Commission last night sanctioned a £10.7 million Danish scheme to refund events canceled to prevent the spread of coronavirus.
Best not talk about confiscated surgical masks and handcleaner bound for the UK


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Mar 20 - 10:15 AM

"He was pointing out that all levels of UK lefties are presenting negativity and fault finding criticism..."

No he wasn't. He was pointing to the whingeing of ONE left-wing celebrity, namely Emma Thompson, as complained about by ONE "news"paper columnist. Comment is free but facts are sacred. Read the article (holding your nose, preferably).


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Mar 20 - 10:29 AM

Waste of time Steve
Britain left Europe in order to go it alone and not have to be forced to co-operate with other countries in a non-crisis situation - now, at a time of crisis, he whinges at other groups of countries who decide to , guess what "go it alone and not have to be forced to co-operate with other countries"
I wonder what assistance Britain is offering to Europe at the present time!!
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Mar 20 - 11:05 AM

"Best not talk about confiscated surgical masks "
Best not
At present the death toll in Britain is in the low hundreds and less than 1%
In Europe the death rate averages 4 to 5%, in France around 2,500 have died
Had the situation been reversed a and surgical equipment been passing through Britain heading for France, does anybody honestly believe that our lot would allow it to pass though
Flag-waggers like our friend would be screaming themselves hoarse shouting "traitor" - so would bumwipes like the Daily Mail, who headlined this ***** nonsense
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: DMcG
Date: 26 Mar 20 - 01:17 PM

Brexit or Breathing?

It seems crazy to me to put so much trust in Dyson getting a ventilator ready when it looks like it will be September at the earliest for mass production, whereas we need it in a few weeks at most. By some accounts I have read, there is a factory in Galway that is moving from an 8hr workday to a 24h one, but we won't get any of those as they are destined for the EU scheme.

Others people will, undoubtedly, have a different opinion, which I imagine will be some variation of "nothing to worry about, we are British so will solve it."


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 26 Mar 20 - 01:53 PM

Did anyone ever hear of furloughing before?


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 26 Mar 20 - 01:58 PM

Give it a few years and the tories will probably erect memorials and statues
to the brave front-line essential workers
who gladly sacrificed their lives for Britain...

That'll be a glorious PR photo opportunity...!!!

My wife's deputy head is now self isolating with a cough,
after one week baby sitting a handful of essential worker's kids..

She's in the 50 - 60 risk group...

My mrs is scheduled for her brave essential service on the compulsary rota,
during the predicted peak..

She's nearer 60...


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Mar 20 - 02:30 PM

Good luck to you both PFR - hope all goes well for you
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 26 Mar 20 - 02:43 PM

Jim - cheers, I look forward to your posts here..

.. well if they weren't so rapidly deleted...

But fortunately I managed to catch some of your today's 'disappeared' earlier writing, just in the nick of time...


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: DMcG
Date: 26 Mar 20 - 03:09 PM

I see the Government is now saying the failure to join the EU scheme was 'an administrative error'.

why is the world plagued by these administrators who keep doing things on their own without those on authority knowing anything about it? Odd isn't it?

It could not just be a threadbare excuse, could it?


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 26 Mar 20 - 03:23 PM

I thought the Tory-Brexiteer-Banana-Bunch were fed up with 'unelected bureaucrats' running things?


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 26 Mar 20 - 03:59 PM

BWM - maybe dom is hoping the one's not already weeded out
will be taken care of by targeted covid infections...


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Mar 20 - 04:05 PM

Thought I'd posted a reply PFR - must have been deleted :-)
I hadn't realised there had been any deleted today - must be losing my touch
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 26 Mar 20 - 04:14 PM

a little deletion here, a little deletion there..

that's the first baby step towards book burning...???


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Iains
Date: 26 Mar 20 - 04:23 PM

Indeed PFR. May you and your better half keep safe.
With talk of authortarianism it is worth pointing out that the Corvid-19 special powers act was rattled through both houses with barely a whimper from either side of the house. The same for passage through the Lords.
Special times call for special powers. Unfortunately the act only requires review in 6 months, automatic repeal unless extended would be a safer way to go. Government takes very easily,giving back is always a struggle.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Mar 20 - 04:34 PM

If you're a Tory voter, and you stood outside tonight to applaud the NHS, that same NHS that the Tories have systematically run down for ten years, and which now has thousands of its workers put in harm's way because you Tories simply don't care, you're a hypocrite, and you should hang your head in shame.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Stanron
Date: 26 Mar 20 - 04:50 PM

Steve Shaw wrote: If you're a Tory voter, and you stood outside tonight to applaud the NHS, that same NHS that the Tories have systematically run down for ten years, and which now has thousands of its workers put in harm's way because you Tories simply don't care, you're a hypocrite, and you should hang your head in shame.
Negativity and criticism. Bring it on!


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Mar 20 - 05:10 PM

Nope. It's a challenge to you Tory voters. It's a fact that the government you elected, over a whole decade, has run down our health service. Just look at what's happened to A&E. Just look at what's happened to waiting lists for consultants and operations. Just look at how we've leaked away thousands of doctors and nurses. Just look at those disgraceful scenes of patients dying on trolleys in hospital corridors. I've just waited six bloody weeks to see my GP. The upshot is that we now have tens of thousands of health workers who haven't got the kit to keep them safe. We haven't got the ventilators. There isn't the testing that is so crucial. Contact tracing doesn't happen. It's a shambles, and to point that out isn't negativity. You're free to contradict, with facts, what I've said. Your post addresses nothing. It's just an attempt to sidestep. Defend the party you voted for by all means. But do it with facts. And I won't even ask if you stood outside to applaud.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Stanron
Date: 26 Mar 20 - 05:26 PM

The 'facts' are that Labour negativity and criticism played a significant part in it's latest political defeat. The voting public dismissed the underlying dishonesty and I hope will continue to do so in the future.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 26 Mar 20 - 05:34 PM

someone mentioned sidestepping...???


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 26 Mar 20 - 05:58 PM

Well it's very strange that this wonderful Conservative government has spent approaching £30m on a fantastic new A & E unit at Croydon University Hospital.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Mar 20 - 06:38 PM

Answer the question, Stanron. If I'm wrong about what your party has done to the NHS, contradict what I've said. With facts.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Mar 20 - 06:43 PM

That's progress, Bonzo. What about just about every A&E department in the country failing by miles to meet its waiting time target? What about the ones that have been closed down?


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 26 Mar 20 - 06:59 PM

I can't speak for other areas. We used to have an A & E at our private hospital back in the early 90s which I used on one occasion.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 26 Mar 20 - 07:03 PM


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 26 Mar 20 - 07:15 PM

Apparently no longer any night time A&E between Bristol and Taunton...!!!

Supposedly a long term temporary measure..
More like testing the water for a full 24/7 closure...???

So how many minutes do you have left to live from heart attack to Ambulance pick up..

.. and that's a Conservative heartland populated by a significant elderly demographic..


.. if the tories an do that to their own kind, their own loyal voters...???


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Stanron
Date: 26 Mar 20 - 07:16 PM

Steve Shaw wrote: Answer the question, Stanron. If I'm wrong about what your party has done to the NHS, contradict what I've said. With facts.
This is a good example of the underlying dishonesty of Labour's attacks on the government over the NHS. Remember the financial crisis of 2008. A deficit in National Economics inherited from Labour which saw National Debt growing at a rate that can only be called out of control.

Had the Conservative Government not brought Public Spending under control our current position would be far worse than it is. You might point out that National Debt has grown since 2008 but if spending has not been cut, the current debt would have been far higher. Despite the low interest rates an even larger part of tax income would have gone into paying interest.

And none of this takes Baby Boomers into account. I get the impression that the term may have changed it's meaning recently but originally it was the boom in births in the UK as serving men came home after the war. 1946 to 1948 saw a boom in births. This lot are now in their 70s and needing the NHS. The commercialization of bad food has led to an epidemic of obesity and diabetes. We are now, mostly, a nation of fatties. More drain on the NHS.

But, Hey!, we'll ignore overspending, baby boomers, HIV, obesity and an overall less active lifestyle and let's just blame it all on the Tories! That worked well in the last election didn't it?


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 26 Mar 20 - 07:27 PM

..what...!!!???

Hello, 2020 calling...


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Mar 20 - 08:00 PM

More like, Hello? Delusion calling! The Tories have now had ten years. Trying to shift attention to what Labour did in an election campaign does absolutely nothing to address what devastation you Tories have wreaked on public services, including care, education and the NHS. Once again: if you don't agree with that, give me the counter-argument with evidence. I don't want to hear any more excuses about what you inherited from the last Labour government, which, as a matter of FACT, handled the GLOBAL financial crisis of 2008 as well as or better than most other countries. You've imposed unnecessary hardship on the most vulnerable for the last ten years, applying "austerity" only to the poorer sections of society. You imposed a draconian and inhuman benefits system that has resulted in countless premature deaths, destitution and suicides. There are more people sleeping on the streets than ever before. We have the bloody disgrace of the major industry of food banks. You froze the pay and screwed the pensions of millions of public sector workers. At the same time you allowed feckless bankers to keep on raking in their bonuses and you continued to allow non-doms and other offshore spivs free rein. Drop the yebbut-Labour-blah-blah, mate. You've had TEN YEARS. You told us that the deficit would be paid off by 2015. Liars. You've created over a million "jobs" which can involve employers ringing you up at point blank notice with no work today. You've allowed the burgeoning of a bogus "self-employed" sector of five million workers, the majority of whom are attached to employers who don't have to pay sick pay, maternity pay or holiday pay. You have the neck to call this "the flexible labour market."   

Well all you can come up with, apparently, is diversions about negativity and how Labour fought a bad election campaign. Stick that in another thread, because it doesn't belong here. It's sidetracking and it is bloody dishonest. Address for once what you lot have actually done for ten years, and, when you've done that, reflect on the state of crass unpreparedness for this epidemic that it's brought us to. It's shambolic, and it's killing people. How good is that.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 26 Mar 20 - 08:28 PM

If I was a tory, I'd hope I'd be honest enough to say

"I don't care, I'm alright Jack...!!!"

..but then be badly surprised to find out in fact I'm not,
as I'd also be left to die...

Because the tory elite I always faithfully voted into power
never care about anyone else, not even me...

[comical sad face crying in despair smiley emoticon...]


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Mar 20 - 08:41 PM

Right on. If anything defines Toryism, it's the way they've been found out by this crisis. It involves everybody, not just them, and Tories can't handle that: Tories are used to leaving the masses behind. The lack of preparedness is staggering. And just think how they've got away with it in part because this has been an easy flu-winter this time around. The poorest people, the hospital porters, orderlies, paramedics, cooks, cleaners and nurses, along with doctors, are mercilessly exposed to deadly disease because this government, in spite of at least three months' notice, can't produce the protective gear needed. They have failed to ramp up the testing regime, so that hospital workers don't know whether they're infectious or not. They tell us that they're sticking to scientific advice, yet a week ago they were rattling on about "herd immunity," which had those of us who know what that means holding their heads in their hands groaning. And Boris sez he's going to mop it up in twelve weeks. Stick it on a bus, Bozo.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 27 Mar 20 - 02:35 AM

The government now busy awarding lucrative contracts for ventilators to Brexit-supporting, Tory-Party-Donor companies like Dyson and JCB. Sounds as though there’s a new outbreak of Cronyvirus....


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 27 Mar 20 - 03:21 AM

I've just read a news report on BBC RED BUTTON
Govt are asking vets to lend big dog/horse ventilators to the NHS...

What next.. asking Blue Peter to get kids to make them
out of toilet roll tubes and lolly sticks...???


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: DMcG
Date: 27 Mar 20 - 03:42 AM

One of the things about the Internet being around awhile is you can see what the world thought of Gordon Brown's approach back in 2008/9. That is, you can look at reports from around the world written in 2008/9 commenting on whether they believed Brown was doing the right thing. Not the revisionism of the more recent years, but what people actually thought at the time. Generally, they thought Brown was doing the right thing. For example, the IMF.

We can also see what the world thinks about how Boris Johnson is handling the current crisis, which, judging by the US employment figures just released, is going to be many times more significant. OK, this is a Guardian summary, but you can look at sources for both the 2008/9 timeframe and the current one from outside the UK and check for yourself.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Mar 20 - 03:54 AM

"Remember the financial crisis of 2008. "
Tsk, trsk more whataboutism
Comparing a financial crisis to a world-wide pandemic just about holds the Gold in the Poliic-Olymics
Economical, with one possible exception, Labour and Tory governments are joined at the hip - while adopting different techniques, both are/were dedicated to preserving the political status quo - Blair's 'New Labour' was probably the most honest in Exposing the 'pro Capitalist nature of Right Wing Labour - out-of the closet Tories.
The exception was the post war Attlee Government which rebuilt war-destroyed Britain using mild socialist measures
The rest have been getting more and more like their so-called opponents each time, which is why it became necessary to take out Corbyn, with the enthusiastic co-operation of the Tory Government, the Tory Press and backers of the extremist right-wing regime in Israel
Blaming the 'last lot' for the inevitable decline of a rotten system is older than the Pyramids
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Mar 20 - 04:00 AM

"which I used on one occasion."
Lucky you to have an A and E that has a brain surgery department Bozo
"that's the first baby step towards book burning...???"
It's helpin keep us warm during these dark days - be grateful
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Iains
Date: 27 Mar 20 - 04:34 AM

What do the Tories say? Though PFI began under the Conservatives, they were intensely critical of Gordon Brown and Tony Blair's much expanded use of the funding method, viewing it as a way for the former government to conceal the true scale of public borrowing in the 2000s.Jan 18, 2018

FROM THE GUARDIAN
NHS hospital trusts to pay out further £55bn under PFI scheme

Some spending one-sixth of entire budget on repaying debts from Blair-era policy

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/sep/12/nhs-hospital-trusts-to-pay-out-further-55bn-under-pfi-scheme

I have mentioned PFI several times recently but as it was a cunning labour wheeze to kick NHS debt way into the future the usual lefty selective amnesia kicks in.
Fact:
1)year on year the NHS budget has grown.
2)NHS hospital trusts are being crippled by the private finance initiative and will have to make another £55bn in payments by the time the last contract ends in 2050
3)“Toxic PFI contracts are still driving billions away from patients and into private bank accounts,” said Chris Thomas, an IPPR health fellow, who carried out the research
4)Tory Ministers have banned the NHS from using PFI for any future building projects after criticism that many of the contracts still active represent poor value for money.
Rather a different narrative than the left would have us believe.
Tories know money vcan only be spent once.
It is only the left, with the abbaccus as shadow home secretary figure they can use mathermagic and spend the same penny a multiplicity of times. Their schooling may have been at Hogwarts but all they learnt was hogwash.

At the start of the NHS life expectancy in the UK was (M)66 years and (F)70 years. Today the figures are 79.3 years for males and 82.9
Two-thirds of hospitals beds are occupied by the one-third of the population with a long-term condition.
. People are living with a growing number of long-term chronic conditions - diabetes, heart disease and dementia. These are more about care than cure - what patients usually need is support. By the age of 65, most people will have at least one of these illnesses. By 75 they will have two.
5. Care for older people costs much more

The average 65-year-old costs the NHS 2.5 times more than the average 30-year-old. An 85-year-old costs more than five times as much.
If youwant a better health service it will cost you. Simples!


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Mar 20 - 05:00 AM

The Health Service has always been an anathema to Tory philosophy which hangs a price tag on whatever if it can
There has never been a limit on how much is spent on weapons - the lives and health of the British people have always come a poor second which is why this and any tight wing administration need to be closely scrutinised, particularly at a time like this
We already know that Dom Scummings was weighing up the possibility of ditching the elderly - didn't that being revealed lead to a farcical scrambling of denial among those who have become dependent on him for thinking up such penny-pinching schemes on their behalf ?
More of the same to come I'm sure   
We really are expendable to these people
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Mar 20 - 06:04 AM

"tight wing"
I was going to apologise for the typo, but considering who and what is under discussion - maybe not
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 27 Mar 20 - 06:09 AM

More like, Hello? Delusion calling! The Tories have now had ten years. Trying to shift attention to what Labour did in an election campaign does absolutely nothing to address what devastation you Tories have wreaked on public services, including care, education and the NHS. Once again: if you don't agree with that, give me the counter-argument with evidence.

Is this standard of left-wing discussion?
Present a series of personal opinions dressed up as facts, and insist that they require facts to give the opposing view.

Typical!


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: DMcG
Date: 27 Mar 20 - 06:22 AM

From a live feed:

Councils in England have been asked to house all rough sleepers by the weekend, Sky News is reporting, though the government has yet to confirm this.
====

Odd that no one seemed to worry much about that before. It sounds like - if the reports are true - it is thought that the councils could do it in 24h or so if the will was there.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Mar 20 - 06:50 AM

I haven't stated any opinions as facts, Nigel. In fact, I've twice challenged Stanron (that paragon of right-wing standard of debate....just look at his last two posts...) to counter my claims with facts in evidence. He has signally failed both times, preferring instead to make lame accusations about leftie negativity, etc. I could ask you the same: if the things I've said are in any way wrong, I cordially invite you to present evidence to that effect instead of indulging in the same brand of Stanron-nonsense (which at least avoids your having to confront Tory predations in embarrassment, I suppose).

I'll never defend Labour kicking off prescription charges, PFI or the academicisation of schools. In both those latter cases, what started as small but wrong-headed initiatives have ballooned gleefully UNDER THE TORIES into massive corrupting blights, so it ill-behoves Tories to keep on castigating Labour for them. If the Tories thought the initiatives were wrong, well why didn't they abandon them? Attacking Labour for them is both dishonest and downright hypocritical, both trademarks of Toryism, of course.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 27 Mar 20 - 06:51 AM

.... Dom Scummings ....

It's not clever, it's not nice and it's not necessary. Stick to facts and well argued opinions instead of resorting to playground insults, whichever side of the political spectrum you are on.

DC


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Mar 20 - 06:53 AM

And, DMcG, isn't it amazing that the Tories can now suddenly find zillions to battle this crisis, whereas a few short months ago in the election campaign they were accusing Jeremy Corbyn of indulging in fairyland over his far humbler spending proposals...


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Mar 20 - 06:59 AM

How often did you wade in on Iains when he was calling Corbyn magic grandad and Compo, and more, Doug? How about little jimmie? What about abbacus in Iains' latest post? Or does your selectivity betray your personal leanings? In my view you could well be right, it doesn't help. But lampooning politicians in words or cartoons is time-honoured. It's either all of 'em or none of 'em, surely, Doug...


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 27 Mar 20 - 07:10 AM

If you look at the Nickname thread, Steve, you will find that I objected to the use of Magic Grandad, amongst others. As I said above, ... whatever side of the political spectrum you are on. Two wrongs don't make a right.

DC


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 27 Mar 20 - 07:11 AM

On a cheerful note, Richard Thompson is apparently doing a concert on Facebook - "Join Richard this Sunday at 1pm PST / 4pm EST / 9pm GMT for a Facebook Live concert for Parents & Grandparents Who Are Staying Home".

More than that I do not know!


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Iains
Date: 27 Mar 20 - 07:14 AM

If the Tories thought the initiatives were wrong, well why didn't they abandon them?
They did.
Fact dear boy! Fact!


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Donuel
Date: 27 Mar 20 - 07:23 AM

Boris Johnson has Covid 19


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 27 Mar 20 - 07:31 AM

Stay safe Boris.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: DMcG
Date: 27 Mar 20 - 07:39 AM

As my sister said, how many has he infected? What is the state of the cabinet now?

Remember the recovery rate is 80% or better, so he will probably be ok. And I for one would far rather Johnson in charge than Raab.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Mar 20 - 07:40 AM

Without wishing to Labour the point, Doug, you waded in on Jim today over Dom Scummings but left Iains alone with abbacus.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Iains
Date: 27 Mar 20 - 07:41 AM

Stay very safe Boris.
But why do I have an advert onscreen, while I type, of a toilet bowl being cleaned with a can of coke while advertising bowl sparkle?
Too deep for me I am afraid.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Mar 20 - 07:42 AM

I didn't intend to capitalise the word "labour" there, in case anyone thought I was trying to do a clever play on words.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Mar 20 - 07:43 AM

So how come he got tested, then?


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Iains
Date: 27 Mar 20 - 07:48 AM

on the advice of the chief medical officer


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 27 Mar 20 - 07:49 AM

Because he has priority, like we do with Supermarket deliveries.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 27 Mar 20 - 08:09 AM

.... I objected to the use of Magic Grandad, amongst others.

You have obviously made no effort to see what I actually wrote in the other thread but abbacus was included. I gave, in all, four examples, three of which had been posted by Iains - two against politicians and one against a Mudcat member. The fourth example was posted by a Mudcatter of a different political persuasion against a Conservative MP. They were the insults I could recall at the time. It was not a comprehensive list but enough to illustrate my point.

Whataboutism isn't the best tactic to use in any argument.

DC


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Mar 20 - 08:13 AM

"It's not clever, it's not nice and it's not necessary. "
I suggest you take a look at how the Tory press has ridiculed CORBYN AND HIS COLLEAGUES to the level that Punch depicted the the Irish during the Famine and even lower, since he first appeared on the scene
The Government supported trumped up charges of anti-Semitism, they attacked him over his age despite having historically been led by leaders far older and supported on controversial subjects in the House of Lords by old men who have to have their afternoon nap before they can make it to the ballot box
Their level of open hatred (based, no doubt on fear) of Corbyn is far beyond anything I can remember
These people may not be popular among the great and good, but Corbyn received a far greater level of support from rank and file members than has any Tory leader before or since his arrival
And you complain about my being "not nice" about a non elected proven bullying thug who hasn't enough respect for his employers or the public he is supposed to be working on behalf of to even DRESS PROPERLY whwn appearing in public
His WELL-THOUGH-OUT LANGUAGE when recruiting staff sums up his contemptuous attitude to those he is working for
That a Government steering Britain though first a crass decision to leave Europe and now a world wide pandemic should rely on such a ridiculous individual to steer Britain, or even sell tickets for these perilous voyages is a plain display of their contempt for us
Give us a break Doug - I thought you were better than that
This clown caricatures himself far better than anyboy else coul
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Iains
Date: 27 Mar 20 - 08:20 AM

These people may not be popular among the great and good, but Corbyn received a far greater level of support from rank and file members than has any Tory leader before or since his arrival

But not from Joe Public. They deserted Labour in droves, even from the labour heartlands. The biggest drubbing since 1935.
Now Boris is King and Corbyn a total failure -FACT!


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Mar 20 - 08:20 AM

"Whataboutism isn't the best tactic to use in any argument."
Yet you people use it all the time - Ia'ns jus has, harking back to a previous labour government
In general and ongiong aspects such as this when decisions and rhetoric become habit, whataboutism sums up a general approach to Governance ather than a one-off mistake
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: DMcG
Date: 27 Mar 20 - 08:22 AM

On the people signing up to be volunteers distributing food, contacting those isolated by phone and so forth: no one I know who volunteered has been contacted yet to help. Does anyone else on here know someone who has? Or how long it might take before we are contacted?


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Mar 20 - 08:26 AM

Cummins 'Rambling Blog' to help Britain through Brexit
dominiccummings.com/2020/01/02/two-hands-are-a-lot-were-hiring-data-scientists-project-managers-policy-experts-assorted-weirdos/
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 27 Mar 20 - 08:29 AM

I'll never defend Labour kicking off prescription charges, PFI or the academicisation of schools. In both those latter cases, what started as small but wrong-headed initiatives have ballooned gleefully UNDER THE TORIES into massive corrupting blights, so it ill-behoves Tories to keep on castigating Labour for them. If the Tories thought the initiatives were wrong, well why didn't they abandon them?

Part of the reason the NHS is short of money is the PFI initiatives signed up to by the Labour Government. The ongoing cost of these initiatives (paid from the NHS budget) was kept off the balance sheet of the government at that time.
These PFI initiatives were contracts with the providers. The Conservative Government could only end these by either reneging on the contracts (illegal), or buying them out (very costly as a 'one-off' payment which would fall into current expenditure).
How do you think that the Conservatives could 'abandon them'?


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: DMcG
Date: 27 Mar 20 - 08:57 AM

Since Nigel and Iains seem to in some disagreement on whether PFI has continued under the Tories, it might be useful to look at this Wiki page, and in particular the new contracts put in place after 2010. The contracts are conveniently listed in a table towards the bottom. Yes, the majority are before the Tories gained power (in a coalition), but there are a good number afterwards.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Iains
Date: 27 Mar 20 - 08:59 AM

With a prediliction for magic money trees the economic knowledge of the left could safely be written upon a postage stamp. This is due to the fact that the most vociferous leached off the public teat all their lives. They cannot appreciate the link between graft and reward. It is not in their genetic makeup. Nationalise and destroy is their only mantra.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Mar 20 - 09:17 AM

"But not from Joe Public. "
Joe Public relies on a non-existent unbiased media for its information - what else do you expect - those uninvolved in politics have sweet f...all else to go on - even Joe Goebbels knew that
Our report found that 75% of press coverage misrepresents Jeremy Corbyn – we can't ignore media bias anymore (THE INDEPENDENT
https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/jeremy-corbyn-media-bias-labour-mainstream-press-lse-study-misrepresentation-we-cant-ignore-bias-a7144381.html
You regard the media with contempt when it doesn't correspond with criminal blogger 'Stained Staines's' blogs
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 27 Mar 20 - 09:21 AM

Dum de dum de dum de dum!!


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: An Buachaill Caol Dubh
Date: 27 Mar 20 - 09:29 AM

If by "graft" is meant hard work (rather than some kind of corruption), I too cannot understand the link in this country between hard work and reward. Without going into any detail, or piling up examples of various kinds of work at widely differing rates of pay, I'd just use the observation that a GP, or a Practice Nurse, does real work of more genuine value in one shift than some highly paid people do in their entire "working" lives. As one particularly unpleasant politician put it a generation back, though his targets were different, they would never be missed.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 27 Mar 20 - 09:37 AM

I'm glad to see that the non- cash declaring self employed will at last get their comeuppance under the Coronavirus Support for self employed rules!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Mar 20 - 09:52 AM

Not making an argument Doug. We had abbacus and Scummings close together in THIS thread but you remarked on just the one. However, point taken, and I retract gracefully (hopefully).


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Mar 20 - 10:00 AM

YOU AIN'T SEEN NOTHIN' YET :-)
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Iains
Date: 27 Mar 20 - 10:33 AM

A Question Time rant from Lancet editor Richard Horton is doing the rounds this morning after he savaged the “national scandal” of “being in this position. We knew in the last week of January that this was coming – the message from China was absolutely clear that a new virus with pandemic potential was hitting cities.” Hindsight is a wonderful thing…

Richard claims the message by the end of January from China was absolutely clear – why then, in late January, did he Tweet:
Richard Horton
A call for caution please. Media are escalating anxiety by talking of a “killer virus” + “growing fears”. In truth, from what we currently know, 2019-nCoV has moderate transmissibility and relatively low pathogenicity. There is no reason to foster panic with exaggerated language.
2,988
7:18 AM - Jan 24, 2020


Richard Horton
And, when one examines the global response to 2019-nCoV, Chinese authorities have acted quickly and decisively to control the outbreak. They have shared information rapidly and transparently. Meanwhile, WHO has been impressive: clear and confident decisions and communication.
251
7:29 AM - Jan 24, 2020


Richard’s own journal, The Lancet, included a report on the effects of Coronavirus in China published weeks later in the February edition, which said “2019-nCoV still needs to be studied deeply in case it becomes a global health threat” – implying they did not, at the time, see the virus as a global health threat. Richard is arguing that governments around the world should have seen what he, the editor of one of the world’s premier medical journals, only sees in retrospect…

Typical BBC behaviour on question time. Introduce with one hat and the activist inside springs out with another. His wiki entry is quite clear. Perhaps the Lancet requires a neutral editor.
Brought by Guido and no truth was harmed!


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 27 Mar 20 - 10:45 AM

Just discovered how hopelessly vile "breakfast tea" is. Just trying to make our Earl Grey last longer!!


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 27 Mar 20 - 11:19 AM

What a relief it would be if everyone would stop squabbling.

Read this and then think about how to help your neighbors, and even those Mudcatters you're always bickering with. This could come to your town sooner than you think.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 27 Mar 20 - 11:35 AM

To be honest, Steve, I never even noticed the abbacus comment. It was uncapitalised and appeared in the middle of a sentence, half-way a post in excess of one screen length on my tablet. I tend to skim read long posts and those of any length from certain posters. I had to do a search to find it, and even that wasn't straight forward ad Iains spelt it with


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Mar 20 - 11:36 AM

The view in Ireland is that while it is possible that the situation migt ease up in a month or so, there is likely to be a second wave on its way
It was announced that China seems to be on top of the problem but presumably the same will apply
I've never been happy about China's grip on its people but when the British Establishment controls and manipulates the necessary information to guarantee democracy - whence the difference, apart in technique

Sorry Stilly, (with respect, of course) were not going to be able to discuss this problem fully if we're expected to act like a pack of nodding dogs otherwise all we'd do is go around wailing "Oh calamity"
We've already managed to worm out how Government supporters believe health facilities should be distributed - presumably they reflect the views of those they support
These are the type of things we need to know
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 27 Mar 20 - 11:49 AM

Done it again! You would think that I would have learnt by now.

To continue:-


.... two Cs, while you and I only used one. Even if I had noticed it, I had already commented on it elsewhere, so I may or may not have included it.

Jim's post was shorter. The name was capitalised and stood out

DC


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 27 Mar 20 - 11:54 AM

For completeness:-

.... abbaccus ....

It's not clever, it's not nice and it's not necessary. Stick to facts and well argued opinions instead of resorting to playground insults, whichever side of the political spectrum you are on.

DC


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Iains
Date: 27 Mar 20 - 12:37 PM

Some positive news!
Dyson designed a new state of the art ventilator in 10 days. At least 15,000 will be built in Wiltshire with 10,000 going straight to the NHS, and 4,000 expected to be sent to other countries in need. Dyson said the company had designed and built an entirely new ventilator, called the "CoVent," since he received a call 10 days ago from UK Prime Minister Boris Johnson.
"This new device can be manufactured quickly, efficiently and at volume," Dyson added, saying that the new ventilator has been designed to "address the specific needs" of coronavirus patients.
A spokesperson for the company, which is best known for its vacuum cleaners and hand dryers, said the ventilators would be ready by early April.


https://order-order.com/2020/03/27/on-the-brighter-side/#comments
I have a little sweepstake on who posts the first negative comment.
Go on, Make my day

This is why no one likes to have you participate in thread - you shoot yourself in the foot with nasty remarks when simple news would have been sufficient. Consider this the first, loser.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 27 Mar 20 - 12:50 PM

Doug - sorry can't remember if we have agreed or disagreed in the past..

But in the midst of pandemic crisis, in an already over long and over convoluted thread,
do we really need several posts extending a somewhat petty irrelevant thread derail 'bee in your bonnet'
about 'name calling' and spelling...

It's taken me bloody ages catching up reading this thread from where I left off to go to bed..
I don't skim, but treat folks with sufficient respect
reading every word of threads that take my interest..

Please take this as intended in good humour,

But it's only fair I be consistent in my 'bee in bonnet' about long winded hijacks and pedantry
in mudcat threads...


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Mar 20 - 12:54 PM

Respect, Doug.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: DMcG
Date: 27 Mar 20 - 01:11 PM

Define 'ready'.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 27 Mar 20 - 01:21 PM

PFR,

I made my comment in response to Jim's post and that would have been it. All of my subsequent posts were in response to Steve who, while not wishing to "labour the point" nor "make an argument", repeatedly brought up a perceived imbalance in my original post. If you have a problem, take it up with Steve.

The only reason I am posting this message is that you have decided to extend the discussion. Physician, heal thyself!

That is all I have to say on the subject.

DC


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 27 Mar 20 - 01:43 PM

Doug - I was awkwardly aware of that possible irony..

bugger.. dunnit again...!!!

But in a a robust forum politics debate between big grumpy old git grown ups,
robust mickey taking language and humourous banter should not be policed and judged by
self-appointed morality officers..???

Far more important realities concern, even frighten, us right now..

..and if we can't lighten the tension by taking the piss out of govt and opposition politicans,
who all badly f@cked up to some degree...


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 27 Mar 20 - 01:54 PM

A sad irony re coronavirus covid19 is that, whilst English have become the world's worst when it comes to copying other cultures (yoga, American pop, etc.), we are not copying the mask-wearing of nations coping relatively well with this virus.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Mar 20 - 02:00 PM

Masks don't work.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 27 Mar 20 - 02:06 PM

walky - good..

NHS and care staff, other essential frontline workers,
need the scarce supply of surgical masks far more than you or me..

If you are convinced masks are such an effective foolproof protection,
nothing to stop you making your own to wear..


I already suggested to you in a previous thread cricket box and jock strap..

Or if you have an anorak, parka, or cagoule, wear it back to front with the hood over your face..

There's no limit to creative ideas if you have a mask bee in your bonnet..

But beekeepers masks are probably not too protective...???


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Mar 20 - 02:14 PM

"I made my comment in response to Jim's post"
I'm still waiting for you to Justify that post Doug
You can't still be defending Dom the Demic's good name, surely
Sorry to pursue this but when our fate is put in such hands as his to the extent it has we really need to understand where he's coming from and whose support he has
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Iains
Date: 27 Mar 20 - 03:09 PM

Jim when you do not livein the UK   why shitstir about being a possible victim of the NHS and the tories? It makes you appear to be a fool.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 27 Mar 20 - 03:27 PM

Iains - I welcome Jim's [mostly] wisdom..

What he has to say is far more intelligent and relevant than too many Brit fools
who live still live here...


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Mar 20 - 03:49 PM

Take no notice PFK
I was born in the UK, I have near relatives living in the UK and I feel a great allegiance to the UK, despite my reservations at what people like Iains have done to it and are doing to its reputation
My nephew has an excellent job for Westland (whatever it calls itself now) and stands to lose it thanks to ******* Brexit
Do you think for one minute I'm going to stop worying about him and the rest   at the sound of the jackboot kicking down the door
THey can't retreat to their farm in Kerry when they run out of cash and are faced with stacking shelves at Morrisons
Sod the flagwaggers of little brain, I say
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 27 Mar 20 - 04:02 PM

Jim - of course, I'm sure he extends "when you do not livein the UK   why shitstir"

to all the ex pat m/billionaires who live on exclusive exotic faraway gated estates and islands,
who insistently finance interference with our British home democracy...


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Mar 20 - 04:45 PM

...including foul-mouthed Paul Dacre, recently editor of his favourite rag the Mail, off-shorer par excellence. He had plenty to whinge about when it came to our beloved country, so beloved to him that he can't stand to live here... Half a million quid from EU farm subsidies even though he's a rampant Europhobe...I won't go on...


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Mar 20 - 04:54 PM

From Marina Hyde in the Guardian:

"In the UK on Thursday night, millions stood on doorsteps or leaned from their windows to applaud NHS and care workers, a vastly moving moment confused only by the participation of many Conservative MPs and ministers who in 2017 not only voted against a pay rise for nurses, but loudly clapped its defeat – and whose funding priorities have left some frontline NHS workers threatening to resign over lack of protective equipment. The World Health Organization recommends the sort of full-body armour you’d want to attend dinner at Michael Gove’s; current government largesse allows for a Kiss the Cook apron and a cardboard Simon Cowell mask."

How searingly true. The sheer HYPOCRISY of any Tory who had the bloody neck to go out and applaud. Shit on the sorry lot of them. Well said, Marina, as ever.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Iains
Date: 27 Mar 20 - 05:35 PM

Jim has yet to answer the question. So far all he has done is take us for a merry jaunt around the houses while wabbling on about whataboutism. You may fool your acolytes, but not me.
I see Mr Varadkar has just banned you from leaving your house come midnight. The over 70's are coconed by decree.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 27 Mar 20 - 05:53 PM

The PM and Prince Charles were rightly tested for Cornovirus. They are both special because of their special responsibilities. But doctors and nurses treating COVID patients are entitled to ask why they can’t get tests. They are special cases too


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Mar 20 - 06:16 PM

Boris, maybe. BigEars? Nowt special there. He got tested because he atops the pyramid of privilege. He's far less use than tens of millions of ordinary working people, many of whom, thanks to this inept government, are in the firing line, and a good number of whom will die, again thanks to the dilatory and complacent attitude of this government.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 27 Mar 20 - 06:30 PM

I could agree with you but then we'd both be wrong!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Mar 20 - 07:43 PM

From the Guardian:

"Boris Johnson was accused of failing to heed his own advice to the public over how to contain coronavirus on Friday as it emerged that he and other key government figures had themselves contracted Covid-19.

On a day of extraordinary developments at the heart of the operation to counter the virus, both the prime minister and health secretary, Matt Hancock, said they had tested positive. The chief medical officer, Prof Chris Whitty, also reported symptoms and went into self-isolation.

But while Johnson said he would be able to continue to run the government’s response to the crisis alone in his Downing Street flat, public health experts rounded on his attitude to the infection and accused him of being “nonchalant” and “slow” to behave appropriately.

The prime minister has previously been accused of failing to keep an appropriate distance from other senior figures in public, and has continued with parliamentary duties this week, raising the possibility that he may have infected others in the cabinet and beyond."

Inept, complacent, irresponsible...


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Mar 20 - 07:50 PM

Tho' from the Daily Star:

"SCRUB YER KNOBS AND KNOCKERS!"

It was a reference to doorknobs and knockers. Just so as you'd know...and I saw it on the Beeb News Channel, just in case anyone thinks I might be buying that rag!


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 27 Mar 20 - 07:58 PM

Funny that, Gove popping up on TV again...

How many more of his rivals will suddenly test positive in coming days...???

Pandemics really are a most useful perfect murder weapon...


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Mar 20 - 03:20 AM

"Jim has yet to answer the question. "
Unlike you, who has tripped over yourself to reply to each question that has ever been put to you as you have a long reputation of doing
Unfortunately, personal abuse doesn't count as an answer to most intelligent people, which is also firmly embedded in your reputation
Would you like my calculation of how many times you have indicated that those livin in Britain (born there or not) are forbidden to comment on what happens there, and how many times I have responded ?
I don't suppose you will respond this time - so here's to the next time eh
You really aren't very good at debating are you ?
This is why people have been instructed by the mods not to respond to you
only do because I'm feeling somewhat charitable to people at the present time - you're at the top of my St Vincent De Pauls list at present
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Iains
Date: 28 Mar 20 - 04:33 AM

Would you like my calculation of how many times you have indicated that those livin in Britain (born there or not) are forbidden to comment on what happens there, and how many times I have responded ?

I would be most interested. I look forward to seeing your lie exposed.

I note the weasel word "Calculations". Try putting money where mouth is and offer proof.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Mar 20 - 04:59 AM

"I would be most interested. I look forward to seeing your lie exposed."
Off the top of mu=y head - four times at least
A little stupid tioo call something you have just clearly stated and I have replied to just a few posting up "a lie" doncha think ?
You really are hopeless at all this, aren't you
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Iains
Date: 28 Mar 20 - 05:24 AM

Doctor! Doctor!


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 28 Mar 20 - 05:30 AM

Like most people, I guess, and as I’m in the ‘seriously at risk’ category, I’m very concerned about Covid-19 and the government’s inept handling of the situation. I’m pretty sure that none of the easily-deceived neophyte Tory voters from former ‘Red Wall’ districts at the last GE expected such a shambolic, bumbling performance from their new heroes at the first sign of a real problem.

But what I’m just as concerned about is what Dom & Dumber, and their band of acolytes, are up to while everyone is 100% distracted by Covid-19 and wall-to-wall TV coverage of same. A disaster is a very convenient cover for governmental chicanery on other fronts.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Workingtonman
Date: 28 Mar 20 - 05:51 AM

yes BWM, that is a worry.....or a disaster. as late as last autumn and their leadership contest there were many tories willing to contemplate 'anyone but johnson' - we were told he was widely disliked in the party, and an ego-driven fool etc. (yes, nicky morgan) at the time there were several saner voices in the party grieve, stewart etc who seemed to talk with some insight and intelligence. these guys were backed by the party elders - major, heseltine, ken clarke etc but all their voices went unheeded and they were disappeared from the party. none of them come out of this with any credit - i want to hear some form of opposition to johnson from an organised group of saner tories - but there isn't any. nothing. don't they care about their party? their country? european liberal democracy? while the newer breed bay and cheer at johnson's inane and dangerous capers is there nothing that can dissuade these tories that they may have backed the wrong man taking the wrong line? their past behaviour has led to an NHS and other vital services struggling to survive and starved of resources - now dedicated workers and many other vulnerable people are dying because of boris johnson and others. has anyone changed their mind? and now with the best advice to impart to us on tackling the virus, boris johnson and his nhs lap dog have the virus - you idiots. boris johnson is killing nurses - does any tory have any doubts about him yet? he is a living example of someone getting what he always wanted and finding it a nightmare - well, i hope he suffers this for a few more sweaty, drunken hours before disappearing somewhere unpleasant and letting someone grown up try to make sense of this situation.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Mar 20 - 05:56 AM

"Doctor! Doctor!"
Too late, I'm afraid
The damage has long caught hold
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 28 Mar 20 - 06:04 AM

I recommend garlic & coriander nan bread with ginger preserve if you can't get bread!!


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Iains
Date: 28 Mar 20 - 06:40 AM

Over seven in ten now think Boris and co. are doing well, up from 59% last week, with just two in ten (21%) now thinking they are doing badly, down from 31% last week. The biggest shift has been among those who voted for the Labour Party in December, with a majority (56%) of them now thinking the Government is handling this crisis well, compared to just 38% a week ago.

Who would have believed it? Just shows how totally divorced from reality the left posting here are.
Terrible things are facts.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Workingtonman
Date: 28 Mar 20 - 07:11 AM

i'm asking if anyone has any doubts about him. what would it take? our wee town is grieving this morning following the death of our good friend Allan. down my street a retired theatre nurse who had gone back to work is at home ill with the virus. now is not the time to bang on about politics and such but i hope before my time is up that, for once, these ruthless tory bastards get their time in court.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 Mar 20 - 07:13 AM

And the mob howled for Barabbas, and at the end of the sixties 84% of Brits wanted to keep on stringing people up, and Trump won an election. Public opinion isn't facts. Not really.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Mar 20 - 07:19 AM

Surely its the actual decisions that count, not how many people agree with that
You,ve kicked majority decisions into touch whenever they run against your own beliefs
Yor argument is populism - they're doing what people want - in fact the people haven't been asked what they want - it would take a nation wide survey to do that
As you've often said - snap 'surveys' can produce any result you want as UGove is constantly proving
The Government has dragged its feet over and over again, weeks behind Ireland on closing schools, crammed race meetings that should never have taken place - only now are adequate facilities being constructed to cope with victims
China constructed these immediately and in a matter of days and they appear to have the problem cracked while Britain is only just starting
Still milking an international disaster to score political points - I see
Even Johnson and his team are pleading for national unity to tacjle this problem while you continue to drive a wedge among the people
You reall aren't prepared to share anybody's hymn book are you
No wonder even your own side doesn't want to talk to you - you embarrass them
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Mar 20 - 07:39 AM

Magnificent display of idiocy in this mornings Times
Johnson and his crowd of ministers crammed shoulder to shoulder dow a fight of stairs in number ten (presumably on their way to discus 'social distancing' and other ways to beat the virus) - two of them have the virus
"Do what I say and not what I do" eh !!!
Barm-pots all
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Mar 20 - 08:19 AM

Or maybe it's Johnson's new plan for a Cabinet reshuffle !!
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Iains
Date: 28 Mar 20 - 08:41 AM

Even Johnson and his team are pleading for national unity to tacjle this problem while you continue to drive a wedge among the people

Do try pulling that mighty oak from your eye, it may enable the brain to engage.

National Unity = support Boris. Not a difficult concept to grasp for most of us.

I suggest you review recent posts of both yourself and your acolytes. You are a comical fellow!


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Workingtonman
Date: 28 Mar 20 - 08:50 AM

just carry on bickering guys - nothing else is happening out here


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Iains
Date: 28 Mar 20 - 09:29 AM

There is a lot happenning. UK's first NHS Nightingale hospital set up in response to coronavirus pandemic. The hospital, based in Canning Town, east London, is set to open next week with 500 beds but there are plans to expand that to 4,000. NHS clinicians and managers are working with military planners and engineers to create, equip, staff and open the NHS Nightingale London, The ExCeL London Centre is being refitted to take hundreds of beds with oxygen and ventilators.Others are planned.
It comes as more than 38,000 former healthcare professionals and soon-to-be qualified students step forward to join the fight against Covid-19 in the coming weeks.

According to the government a total of 15,266 former staff responded to a call to action from officials, with 5,117 doctors, 5,605 nurses and midwives and 3,686 pharmacists and other professionals pledging to return to the frontline of the health service

This is joined up thinking from a competant gov ernment responding to a crisis that never before has been faced by the modern world. Their heroic efforts should be applauded not be subjected to the endless petty sniping seen on this forum.

And next week, 5,750 final year medics and 17,000 final year nursing students in England will also be asked to consider starting placements with support from seasoned workers, the Department of Health and Social Care said.
But NHS England is actively preparing for a number of scenarios as the outbreak continues and is working with clinicians and teams of military planners around the country.”

Scotland’s chief medical officer, Dr Catherine Calderwood, separately said numerous sites were being considered north of the border with the nation “on the cusp of that rapid escalation”.

This is an unprecedented response to a demand on health facilities that no country in the world is equipped for.

How do y'all think compo would be facing up to the cgallenge were we sad enough to have him as leader? He was mentally challenged to create even an election manifesto!


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 28 Mar 20 - 09:48 AM

You do have a point there Iains, but they will argue the hind legs off of a donkey!!


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 Mar 20 - 10:13 AM

The response of the Tories to this crisis (bearing in mind how they've severely run down the NHS over a decade) has been shameful. It's been inept, late, confused and indecisive. If you want to see how it should be done, look at South Korea. EARLY clampdowns, testing, testing and more testing, and aggressive contact-tracing. Nothing like that here. We are still doing way under a quarter of the testing that South Korea achieved after all this time. It feels like there's nobody driving. Front-line NHS staff are being put in harm's way in their thousands every day. The safety equipment and testing just isn't there. The government's ineptitude is killing people. Valiant attempts by Tory voters here to defend the indefensible is...well, just wacky...


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Mar 20 - 10:46 AM

"National Unity = support Boris. Not a difficult concept to grasp for most of us."
Rather "My leader, right or wrong"
You ignore his virtually walking arm-in-arm with a fellow Coronavirus victim and a bunch of other politicians while at the same time demanding that the rest of Britain "social distances"
You choose to ignore the crass decision of allowing a huge national race meeting to take place despite being urged not to
They are two weeks behind Ireland in closing schools
Today, he has been slated by those health workers on the front line risking their lives and health for providing not them with adequate protection equipment
The man apparently doesn't do joined-up thinking and appears totally unaware of his own public displys of idiocy

It's become obvious that some among us have places loyalty to the party far higher than the health and welfare of the British People
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Iains
Date: 28 Mar 20 - 11:36 AM

In the UK as of the 20th March 960/million were tested for covid-19.
This compares with:
Taiwan 900
Swirzerland 481
Sweden 1412
Spain 646
S. Korea 6148
Russia 918
Poland 334
Japan 117
Italy 3498
Ireland 1350
Germany 2023
France 559
Iran 957
It is so much better to argue with accurate data instead of hearsay and bluster. Doncha think?


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: An Buachaill Caol Dubh
Date: 28 Mar 20 - 11:56 AM

How's the chocolate ration? Or what about things on the Malabar Front?


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Workingtonman
Date: 28 Mar 20 - 01:32 PM

a little while ago i put a message on here about a good friend of ours who died last night. it's not that unusual these days- there are many folk in serious danger and many millions who are terrified and in need of some solidarity and friendship. feel free to ignore this everyone but 'if you are happy and you know it clap your hands' is at least grossly insensitive and possibly psychopathic.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 28 Mar 20 - 01:51 PM

Sorry for your loss, Pete.

I have stayed off and watched this thread head for disaster. I can only remind you all of what I said 5 days ago. It has become impossible to discuss politics in any meaningful way on here. The wreckers have won.

I suggest, yet again, that anyone with any sense has no interaction at all with those wreckers.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Mar 20 - 02:36 PM

"Sorry for your loss, Pete."
Second that
So far no-one we know has been effected
It was heart-warming to learn that Cuba, which appears to be relatively untouched have sent dozens of volunteer doctors to Italy and are responding to other world wide requests (though I doubt if that will get much publicity 90 miles away)
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 28 Mar 20 - 02:52 PM

”Sorry for your loss, Pete.”

And I echo that sentiment Pete. Sincere condolences.

”I have stayed off and watched this thread head for disaster. I can only remind you all of what I said 5 days ago. It has become impossible to discuss politics in any meaningful way on here. The wreckers have won.

I suggest, yet again, that anyone with any sense has no interaction at all with those wreckers.”


And those are the most sensible and truthful words posted by anyone on this thread. Unfortunately, a few people who really should know better seem incapable of comprehending this simple fact, and so another worthwhile thread gathers momentum towards its death.

None are so blind as they who will not see.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 28 Mar 20 - 03:28 PM

Last week I was called a "paragon"..

Now it seems I'm being called "an acolyte"...

Fine by me, can't beat Desmond Dekker's greatest hit to cheer us up...


[probably my worst joke for weeks...???]


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: DMcG
Date: 28 Mar 20 - 03:36 PM

Re: Ring-a-ring of Roses.

For reasons I don't fully understand there was an author on the BBC2 Newsnight programme last night.

She came out with the canard that 'Roses' is about the Black Death. NO IT IS NOT. STOP SPREADING THAT ERROR!



Oh, I was cross!


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Mar 20 - 03:51 PM

The Tump administration is demanding that countries do not accept Cuban help FFS
Jim Caarroll


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 28 Mar 20 - 03:56 PM

”Now it seems I'm being called "an acolyte"...“

Not be me.

If it was my use of that word you’re referring to, read again. I was referring to acolytes of Dominic Cummings and Boris Johnson - ‘Dom & Dumber’. I really don’t perceive you as one of those...


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 28 Mar 20 - 05:06 PM

BWM - nah.. course not you..

but the bloke who should never be acknowledged [ideally, if we don't succumb to weakness...]


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 28 Mar 20 - 05:14 PM

From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Mar 20 - 10:46 AM
. . .
They are two weeks behind Ireland in closing schools


The Taoiseach closed schools at the end of day 12 March Here
England closed schools at the end of day 20 March Here
Eight days is a lot less than two weeks.

This is not nit-picking, it is pointing out inaccurate statements being put forward as facts.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: DMcG
Date: 28 Mar 20 - 06:41 PM

Various reports are in live feeds, on the ITV site and elsewhere that the government is denying it has placed an order for Dyson ventilators. It says it has "expressed an interest" in ordering 10,000 once the ventilator has passed regulatory approval but will not order them until then, which as yet it it has not. It looks like 'ready in early April" should be interpreted as "ready in April for the first iteration of regulatory testing. It might pass first time, or several more iterations may be required."

Meanwhile a substantial order appears to have been placed elsewhere for designs that are already approved.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Mar 20 - 07:13 PM

"Eight days is a lot less than two weeks."
The decision was made a week before as was the British one, and the schools prepared to close - as I said, two weeks
The decision to close the schools in Northern Ireland were even later, even though it was suspected that a teacher had died of the virus
Stop wriggling and nit-picking - your Government had lagged behind behind from the word go
I see none of you are raising your hands in horror at Trump, your master's puppet-master, rejecting Cuba's offers of assistance and The Morning Star appears to be the only British paper to carry the story - only learned about it because a singer friend put it up on Facebook
I'd have thought that would have sickened all decent people - it is lethal gamesmanship politics and there is a blanket of silence surrounding it
Dangerous times
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Mar 20 - 07:36 PM

Don't know if your reports are accurate Mac, but I would be interested to know if THIS IS TRUE
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 Mar 20 - 08:29 PM

Now let me tell you summat, moderator dear. Iains put up a terrible post inviting us to clap our hands ("If you're happy and you know it..." that one...the most despicably inhuman post ever to appear on this website, on a day when UK deaths passed one thousand). I responded to that, but you saw fit to delete both his post and my response. Grand. It's your gig, not mine. But I have an opinion on what you've done. You've protected a horrible man, that's what you've done. You don't want him exposed for what he is. I conclude that he chimes with your own personal opinion, whichever of the three you are. We Brits, some of us, have often suspected that you share Iains' extreme right-wing views. Good for you. It's a free country. If you think I've got that wrong, please tell this forum, with your reasons. Not with with one of your usual silly addenda, but with a proper post, like what WE all have to do. They'd better be good reasons. He has clearly crossed the red line, but, from here, it looks like you can't see it. You got rid of Teribus and akenaton because they got up YOUR nose (don't deny it...I have your PMs...), but you're perfectly happy, even deliriously so, to see this idiot getting up OUR noses. In fact, you appear to revel in it. You moan and groan about us Brits "squabbling" (your latest tiresome buzzword), but, actually, you love it, don't you? You think that we'll all get so fed up that we'll leave this website to you precious yanks. Well, this ain't no democracy, but even you can't bring about about. So, fer chrissake, get rid of Iains. He's poison, you know it, but what you don't seem to realise is that he is bringing this website into disrepute. Do delete this post out of your embarrassment. But I've copied it, and I might just send it to your boss. he hasn't heard from me yet, and I do know how to put things. Nighty night.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Mar 20 - 03:31 AM

New British Summertime resolution Steve
The moderators have been made fully aware of this feller's political connections and the possibility that he has been planted here by them, but are under fairly clear instructions not to do anything about him - we can all draw our own conclusions as to why that is - even Max seems to have been persuaded that there's no harm in him
I doubt if anybody believes that they are unable to do anything to stop him - they deal with those of us who try to stop him damn quick enough and they've closed more threads than they left open on his behalf

Can I suggest that we give Baccy and Dave's suggestion that we try Dave's way and blank him completely a try - send him to Coventry, totally ignore him, boycott him, leave him to wallow in his own swill, ignore him, pretend he isn't there (he isn't really anyway)...
He is what he is, were not going to change him and nobody who counts follows him, and he knows it, so he settles for second best and just fucks up interesting threads that he doesn't understand till he gets them closed (with our help)
Let's not help him any more - radio silence when we're in enemy territory it what they're always saying on 'Talking Pictures' let's hope we haven't done too much damage and we get the decent posters like Dave and Baccy back posting regularly and maybe some decent Government supporters who appear to not want to be tarred by his brush - fingers crossed
This will possibly be deleted, but I'll post it around an usual if it is
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Mar 20 - 03:46 AM

I cannot find a single reference to THIS in the 'Free - World Press, yet the report is five days old
THIS seems to have avoided the headlines to a great extent too
Cuba always has had an record for medical excellence (they believe in keeping those they "oppress" healthy, it seemd :-) )
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Mar 20 - 03:46 AM

I cannot find a single reference to THIS in the 'Free - World Press, yet the report is five days old
THIS seems to have avoided the headlines to a great extent too
Cuba always has had an record for medical excellence (they believe in keeping those they "oppress" healthy, it seemd :-) )
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 29 Mar 20 - 04:41 AM

"Eight days is a lot less than two weeks."
The decision was made a week before as was the British one, and the schools prepared to close - as I said, two weeks
The decision to close the schools in Northern Ireland were even later, even though it was suspected that a teacher had died of the virus


Stop wriggling and nit-picking - your Government had lagged behind behind from the word go

So you want to calculate the "two weeks" by taking the time between Ireland making a decision, and England implementing a decision. Definitely 'creative accounting'. And I think it should be clear who is doing the 'wriggling'.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 29 Mar 20 - 04:55 AM

From: Jim Carroll - PM
Date: 29 Mar 20 - 03:46 AM

I cannot find a single reference to THIS in the 'Free - World Press, yet the report is five days old


Yet more disinformation.

This was reported by the Telegraph six days ago: Here
A brigade of doctors and nurses from Cuba have flown to Italy this weekend to help fight coronavirus – Italy is now the centre of the global crisis. It’s not the first time Cuba has been part of a global medical response, since 1959 it’s sent six groups of “armies of white robes” to tackle diseases abroad. The Cubans were applauded on arrival.

Or The Daily Mail two days ago

or March 22nd New York Times


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Iains
Date: 29 Mar 20 - 05:04 AM

Ireland lays on flight to China for PPE as nearly   25% of Covid-9 victims are health care workers.


https://www.rte.ie/news/2020/0329/1127076-ppe-equipment-china/

50% of EU PPE is exported from China and 71 percent of EU imports of mouth-nose-protective equipment.

According to official Chinese customs data released on March 25, Chinese exports of PPE to the world declined by only 15 percent in the first two months of 2020, relative to the same period in 2019, Notable is that China’s exports of these medical products declined less than the rest of its exports to the world, which fell by 17 percent during the same period.

Globalism and interruption oflong supply chains means strategic manufacturing goals need a rapid revision when this crisis permits it.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Mar 20 - 05:06 AM

Well as that came from you, Jim, I'll buy it. I'll ignore the resident ratbag completely from now on. Though, I must say, the powers that be here are extremely remiss in allowing him to abuse us. They moan and groan about us Brits but they appear to revel in Iains' disreputable presence. Anyway, nuff said. Grrr.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Barb'ry
Date: 29 Mar 20 - 05:16 AM


Hi everyone
I wanted to introduce myself as the British mod in the group. For my sins, I have taken on British posts on Mudcat...
Just to let you know that nothing much will change and hate speech, racism, name calling etc will be shut down. If anyone has a problem with that, please let me know ;-).
Civil (ish) discussions, please.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: DMcG
Date: 29 Mar 20 - 05:25 AM

You have my sympathies, Barb'ry. Best wishes!


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Mar 20 - 05:26 AM

Thish should be blazoned over every headline in Britain Nigel n order to encourage the practice and thnk the donors for their generosity
The two papers are to be congratulated fro covering it but why was it announced by all of them ?
It wasn't misinformation - it was lack of same - I didn't see it at the time and it never appeared on the British news
I don'd spread "misinformation" I leave that to the like of Guido
Still nitpicking about how many weeks behind your Government is, I see
Hi Barb'ry - welcome to Hell
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Workingtonman
Date: 29 Mar 20 - 05:32 AM

a post removed was my complaint that iain's response of 'if you are happy and you know it clap your hands' when i had just posted about the death of our friend was incredibly insensitive. in the current situation when all of us are anxious and could do with support from each other (and anywhere!) this is the response of a madman - or a psychopath. i don't get this 'lets all ignore him' stuff - we -and certainly I - have done this often enough. please, gie's peace - cut him off so he can go and shout his bile to the winds.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 29 Mar 20 - 05:32 AM

Sorry Jim, I must have misunderstood.
When you said:
I cannot find a single reference to THIS in the 'Free - World Press, yet the report is five days old

I inferred (wrongly it seems) that you had looked.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Iains
Date: 29 Mar 20 - 05:37 AM

Sensible words from ex PM Blair
Disinformation from Guido? Watch the video and decide



https://order-order.com/2020/03/29/blair-pm-perfectly-able-lead-country-isolation/


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Mar 20 - 06:05 AM

"I inferred (wrongly it seems) that you had looked."
I had and I did not find anyhting which might say something \about Google of course
You are didging the fact that if was under-reported by the British media - thwe level of reporting of this was tantamount to describing the sigking of the Titanic as "Boat Flounders Somewhere Else"
Maybe you can ut me right about the fact that the only reference to Trump having demanded that all Cuban offers of assistance be rejected in the British Press came from the Communist 'Morning Star'
If anything, it is far more important to know that Trump (and presumably his allies of which our Government is a front-rummer) are likely to turn down offers of assistance at a time like this if they don't approve of the benefactor's politics
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 29 Mar 20 - 06:15 AM

Good luck, Barb'ry. On the basis that you will remove obviously provocative nonsense like "Jeremy Corbyn caused everyone to spread the virus", I am happy to get back in the water. Hopefully we can now discuss politics in an adult manner without the infantile rhetoric that we have been suffering.

Cheers

Dave


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 29 Mar 20 - 06:25 AM

Fine, so a labour government under she who sounds like Coronation Street cleaner would be more appropriate to deal with the Coronavirus .....discuss!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 29 Mar 20 - 06:51 AM

You could start by deleting the clearly provocative post at 06:25 AM, Barb’ry.

Good luck!


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Iains
Date: 29 Mar 20 - 06:59 AM

or 6.15 unless proof is offered. Otherwise it is an extremely provocative statement


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 29 Mar 20 - 07:08 AM

See what I mean about provocative nonsense, Barb'ry?

Bonzo. Firstly, defining someone by their gender, social status or regional accent is stereotyping at its worse. Your crass insult to an intelligent young woman is not political comment. It is simply a means to cause friction.

Secondly, neither Corbyn nor his as yet unnamed successor are in any position to change current government policy. As has been pointed out Boris has a massive majority and can do whatever he choses. With that power comes great responsibility and whatever he does now is entirely down to him. Justifying any mistakes that Johnson may make by comparing him with someone who cannot possibly gain power for almost 5 years is not just whataboutism but sheer fantasy.

It adds nothing to the discussion and helps no-one.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Mar 20 - 07:59 AM

I couldn't agree more, Pete. The removal of posts expressing JUSTIFIED outrage at this horrible man just protects him.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Barb'ry
Date: 29 Mar 20 - 08:01 AM


You see I will be damned if I do and damned if I don't so a difficult situation to say the least. The post at 06.25 along with other 'ism' posts perhaps say more about the poster than the comment. Not nice but there as a lasting witness to one's written opinions.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Mar 20 - 08:23 AM

Sorry people - this is just falling back into this feller's trap again - onward and upward eh ??

Ireland is due to take delivery of the first of a large order of ventilaors and medical equipment from China on Tuesday or Wednesday - Dyson has yet to begin their manufacture
Please try to keep up Boris
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Mar 20 - 08:24 AM

Well as long as you stamp on abuse and stay consistent you'll get support here. You've posted to Mudcat just three times in the last almost-six years. I hope you've been a damn good lurker! ;-)


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Workingtonman
Date: 29 Mar 20 - 08:24 AM

no sane person would damn you if you do. there is a law against hate speech you know.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Iains
Date: 29 Mar 20 - 08:27 AM

It would seem fair to me that with the overwhelming majority of posts on this thread finding fault with every action the government is taking, then it is right that the question be asked as to how the Opposition would deal with the multiplicity of problems presented. There are no standard texts on how to deal with this pandemic, PPE gear is not stockpiledon a scale to meet the sudden dramatic increase in demansd, Test kits specific for a given virus or set of antibodies do not sit in wharehouses to meet a sudden demand. The figures to use for planning purposes are largely from models. The entire planning process is on the fly and reacting to constantly changing circumstances. This is not a flawless process.

As Eisenhower said:Plans are worthless, but planning is everything.

There is a very great distinction because when you are planning for an emergency you must start with this one thing: the very definition of “emergency” is that it is unexpected, therefore it is not going to happen the way you are planning.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 29 Mar 20 - 08:28 AM

Agreed, Barb'ry, but that post was not just an 'ism'. It was an underhanded dig at the social status and gender of Rebecca Long-Bailey. I know it to be so because he has made the same comment before. It's the same as the other poster referring to Dianne Abbott as the abbottamus because of her ethnic background and, to my mind, just as hateful.

May I suggest it is worth starting with a clean sheet? Close this thread and start a new one entitled. "UK politics. Moderated". Maybe the first post could be by you detailing what is permissible and what will be summarily deleted.

Just a thought


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 29 Mar 20 - 08:29 AM

Fine, so a labour government under she who sounds like Coronation Street cleaner ....

I know it can only be one of two people but, as TV soaps pass me by, the reference to Coronation Street doesn't give me any clue as to which one. Would anyone care to enlighten me?

DC


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 29 Mar 20 - 08:40 AM

Just tweeted to the Beeb's #SongsOfPraise: a CEO in Japan earns about 10 times more than the company's lowest paid; in Europe, 30 times; & in the USA > 300 times more! So why copy their way of setting Christian words to American pop? God knows, we should worship OUR trad ways; "Nationalism without Conquest"


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 29 Mar 20 - 08:42 AM

See my post just above yours, Doug.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 29 Mar 20 - 08:52 AM

Hmm? I don't normally associate double-barrelled names with cleaners.

DC


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 29 Mar 20 - 08:55 AM

Nor me, Doug. He is referring to her being a woman from a working class background with a Manchester accent.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 29 Mar 20 - 09:01 AM

Correct!!!


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 29 Mar 20 - 09:09 AM

Oh!


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 29 Mar 20 - 09:22 AM

Margaret Thatcher was a working-class woman with a Lincolnshire accent (until she married well and worked on changing her accent to ‘posh’).

So......??


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 29 Mar 20 - 09:42 AM

Changing her accent to normal I think.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Mar 20 - 10:02 AM

"I hope you've been a damn good lurker! ;-)"
I hope you don't mean Lurcher - I've told you how I feel about cruel sports
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Mar 20 - 10:03 AM

How would you know? I thought that people in Cr*yd*n had yet to evolve past grunting at each other....


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Mar 20 - 10:04 AM

That was to Bonzo Doo Dah.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: An Buachaill Caol Dubh
Date: 29 Mar 20 - 10:50 AM

I used to think they people with the double-barrelled names were incredibly honest, if perhaps a bit too forthright. My misunderstanding was that their mothers weren't sure who their fathers were, but that it was in each case a choice between two.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 29 Mar 20 - 11:00 AM

ABCD - :-)

Bonzo. You are aware that women have had the vote for quite a while aren't you? You should also know that it was the working class of Manchester that were instrumental in getting votes for all at Peterloo just over 200 years ago. Assuming you do know all of this and that you do not really believe that gender, place of birth of social status disqualify anyone from being a political leader, then your comments are just made to wind people up. In that case, they can be ignored. If you do believe that such things make people any different then you are deluded and can be ignored for that. Win-win!


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 29 Mar 20 - 11:23 AM

I could agree with you but then we'd both be wrong!!!

Dum de dum, I have to go for daily allowed exercise with Dreamy dog the greyhound while the sun is shining!!!


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 29 Mar 20 - 12:09 PM

You have done that one before, Bonzo. Yesterday I think. And there is nothing for you to agree or disagree with. I do have a question though

Do you really believe that a young, well educated northern woman should be excluded from leadership because of her gender, background or accent? Or are you just winding people up?


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Mar 20 - 12:36 PM

"Or are you just winding people up?"
What took you so long Dave
He's been doing that for years
Do you really think anybody is that stupid ?
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Stanron
Date: 29 Mar 20 - 12:40 PM

Jim Carroll wrote: Do you really think anybody is that stupid ?
Jim
The whole of the Labour platform is based on the assumption that the electorate is stupid.
    I'm leaving this post here as an example of what I don't believe to be acceptable. It appears to be doing nothing more than trolling by making an inflammatory remark. What was to be gained by it? No, I don't want an answer!


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 29 Mar 20 - 12:43 PM

You are aware that women have had the vote for quite a while aren't you? You should also know that it was the working class of Manchester that were instrumental in getting votes for all at Peterloo just over 200 years ago.

Peterloo was hardly about 'votes for all'. More about votes for all men. As you say, women have had the vote (UK) for quite a while, but not that long.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 29 Mar 20 - 12:45 PM

I really want to know, Jim. If he is just winding people up, his posts can be safely removed or ignored. If he genuinely believes that people are inferior because they are either women or northern, he is dangerous and should be treated accirdingly.

Stanron. Would you care to explain?


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 29 Mar 20 - 12:48 PM

"The post at 06.25 along with other 'ism' posts perhaps say more about the poster than the comment.
Not nice but there as a lasting witness to one's written opinions.
"

Barb'ry - This post of your's is as far as I've caught up reading this thread today..

[a lazy Sunday afternoon in bed..]

So, if you can continue to adopt this approach to modding,
as opposed to the inconsistent gratuitous deleting we have put up with for far to long.
Then you are a mod I should get along with ok ...

I've always argued for leaving damning posts in place for posterity,
so bad folks who write bad things can no longer have it swept under the carpet for them,
and conveniently forgotten...

cheers..
pfr


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 29 Mar 20 - 12:51 PM

Now to try catching up reading the rest of this thread..

I may be some time...

[hopefully a minimum of deletions, so what's left is not too confusing,
and has some reasonable continuity that makes sense to a reader...???]


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 29 Mar 20 - 12:51 PM

Votes for all men had to come first, Nigel. Sad but true. Without votes for all men we would never had got votes for all women as well. Peterloo was a major turning point in achieving votes for all no matter how many nits you pick.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Stanron
Date: 29 Mar 20 - 12:58 PM

Dave the Gnome wrote: Stanron. Would you care to explain?
Correct me if I'm wrong but my take on Labour ideology is that the 'whole' can be improved by lifting the 'bottom'. Tory ideology could be seen as lifting the 'whole' by improving the 'top'. I guess I believe more in the idea of trickle down than I believe in the idea of trickle up.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Mar 20 - 12:58 PM

Gove:

"We’re going to move to get that up to 25,000 a day and we’re doing all that we can to increase and to accelerate that, and I hope that we will be able to test as many frontline workers at the earliest possible stage."

As pointed out by the person who copied this into the comments section under a Guardian report, it's just riddled with every caveat under the sun. "Going to, up to, all that we can, increase and accelerate, I hope that we will be able, as many....earliest possible stage..." You couldn't make it up, except that he did. Inept, unprepared, too little, too late.

UK strategy to address pandemic threat ‘not properly implemented’

[Damian Carrington in today's Guardian, extracts]:

The UK’s biological security strategy, published in 2018 to address the threat of pandemics, was not properly implemented, according to a former government chief scientific adviser.

Prof Sir Ian Boyd, who advised the environment department for seven years until last August and was involved in writing the strategy, said a lack of resources was to blame. Other experts said there was a gap between pandemic planning and action, and that the strategy had stalled.

The UK has been rated as one of the most prepared nations in the world, and some experts have said the coronavirus outbreak would have overwhelmed any government. However, a 2019 parliamentary inquiry into biological security was postponed and then cancelled because MPs were focused on Brexit and then the December general election.

Boyd said the government was aware of many risks with low likelihoods but potentially very high impacts on the nation, such as pandemics, severe storms and power blackouts. But he said these were assessed independently from one another, underplaying the total risk, which itself was rising due to climate change, population growth and the globalisation of travel.

Looked at alone, a pandemic had appeared unlikely, he said. “As a result, getting sufficient resource just to write a decent biosecurity strategy was tough. Getting resource to properly underpin implementation of what it said was impossible.”...

...The NHS is reported to have failed a government test of its ability to handle a pandemic, though the finding were not made public. Exercise Cygnus, a three-day dry run for a pandemic carried out in October 2016, examined how hospitals and other services would cope in a flu outbreak with a similar mortality rate to coronavirus.

According to the Sunday Telegraph, ministers were told three years ago that Britain would be overwhelmed, suffering a lack of critical care beds, morgue capacity and personal protective equipment.

In July 2019 the House of Commons joint committee on the national security strategy launched an inquiry into preparing for emerging infectious diseases. However, its first evidence session in October was postponed due to debates on Brexit and the calling of a general election. The December election meant the inquiry was cancelled.

Catherine Rhodes, the head of the centre for the study of existential risk at Cambridge University, had been scheduled to give evidence to the MPs’ inquiry. She said the UK had had fairly good pandemic planning in place.

“There does, however, seem to have been a significant gap between recognition of the risk and planning, and action on preparedness,” she said. “In particular, there could have been much better public communication in advance of the outbreak about the sort of measures that might be necessary in such a situation, and surge capacity in the NHS could have been substantially improved.”

Opi Outhwaite, at St Mary’s law school in London, who was also scheduled to give evidence to the inquiry, said: ‘I think broadly that any government would likely have been overwhelmed by this outbreak.”

But she said: “The risk of an outbreak of this type has been known for some time, while the biological security strategy seemed to have stalled."


Naturally, I have a message to convey about this government's ineptitude (not to speak of the running-down of the NHS), so I've been fairly selective. The article is there in full for anyone to read. There's a little bit of room in it for anyone to make little exonerations of the government. There is no room whatsoever for "it was in The Guardian therefore it's automatic shit" comments.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Mar 20 - 01:32 PM

"I really want to know, Jim.!"
He's always donee this - he makes outrageous statements - about foreigners - of all nationality and colour, about the less well off, about Catholics, about women..... you name it, he's done it
It would take somebody with real problems to believe what he claims he's done
It's purely for effect
"The post at 06.25 "
See above
We've all fallen for it at one time or another
He probably had no toys as a child
"The whole of the Labour platform is based on the assumption that the electorate is stupid."
Consider the number who vote labour Stanron that's an extremely arrogant and elitist statement, even for a dyed in the wool Tory
Nearly all politicians lie to those whose votes they wish to win - our demovcracy is based on the premise that no politician is bound by what the electorate wants
The difference with Labour is that it promises something different than a society divided into haves and have nots rather than the 'crumbs from the rich man's' philosophy built into all other forms of Government
Corbyn showed signs of wishing to change that and your people knew it - it's why they tried every trick in the book to destroy him - personal insults ageist caricature, antisemitism - stupidity..... all manufactured and pushed through - in teh case of antsemitism, with the assisntance of a an extremist right-wing foreign power wich itself is antisemitic in blaming the Jewish People for it's human rights atrocities and has only kept out of the International Courts for those abuses with the help of many dozens of US vetoes (go check)
Labour at its best rebuilt Post War Britain using measures that were opposed by your party at every step of the way
The National Health Service that Briyain priodes itself on was socialism in actin
Go read what your party had to say about it at the tame
You really need to come up with something better than mindless sloganising
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 29 Mar 20 - 01:35 PM

Yes, Stanron. If you need to distribute £100 you can either give £10 each to 10 people who need it or you can give it all to one person who doesn't. In the former case the economy is inflated by £100. In the latter, it gets put into a back pocket and a few crumbs may go back into the economy. I go for the former, as does labour. But that was not my question. You said "The whole of the Labour platform is based on the assumption that the electorate is stupid". You have spectacularly failed to explain that.

Would you care to try again?


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 29 Mar 20 - 01:38 PM

Caught up reading this thread, and watched news headlines..

Right then, I'll support DtG's call for a fresh new thread to start the week.

Let's give our new mod a clean sheet...

By coincidence, on Channel 5 catch up
is the 1961 Max Bygraves movie "Spare the Rod"

a drama about a fresh new inexperienced supply teacher
thrown in at the deep end
with the toughest class of kids, in the toughest school, in the toughest neighbourhood...


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 29 Mar 20 - 01:39 PM

Thanks for the comment and clarification Barb'ry. Apologies for cross-posting. FWIW, I agree.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 29 Mar 20 - 02:22 PM

"Well as long as you stamp on abuse and stay consistent you'll get support here.
You've posted to Mudcat just three times in the last almost-six years. I hope you've been a damn good lurker! ;-)
"

Steve - we're now having to get used to essential workers
being called back out of retirement at short notice...


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Iains
Date: 29 Mar 20 - 02:38 PM

Deputy Chief Medical Officer Dr Jenny Harries:

    “To make it clear to the public, if we are successful we will have squashed the top of that curve which will be brilliant, but we must not then suddenly revert to our normal way of living, that would be quite dangerous. If we stop then all of our efforts will be wasted.”

    “Over time, probably over the next six months, we will have a three week review, we will see where we are going. We need to keep that lid on, and then gradually we will be able to hopefully adjust some of the social distancing measures, and gradually get us all back to normal.”

    “Three to six months ideally, and lots of uncertainty in that, to see at which point we can actually get back to normal. And it is plausible that it could go further than that.“


The video confirmation courtesy of Guido

https://order-order.com/2020/03/29/social-distancing-last-three-six-months-plausibly-longer/#comments


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Mar 20 - 02:39 PM

"but my take on Labour ideology is that the 'whole' can be improved by lifting the 'bottom'."
Your take is wrong
Ihat nothing to do with personal wealth - it is based on equality of opportunity - the right for everybody to prove themself
You reduce that dream to "The politics of envy" - may your tongues fall out en mass
Who envies to be rich enough to have poor taste and little humanity - that's what epitomizes today's privileged
Your party once had principles - the dream that by sacrifice, poor people could better themselves
That has been long abandoned
I can think of a dozen leading Tories I once admired for something or other (I worked for some of them in London)
Now I'm hard pressed to think of one
Your Party has gone down the pan and it has taken Britain with it - go check the constant and repidly growing gap between haves and have nothings and tell me that's not so
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 29 Mar 20 - 03:32 PM

Jim - the tories are now like a more sinister version
of a vintage rock band that lost all original members,
lost all inspiration and direction,
and sadly became a tired weak covers band of itself...

..worst still, the new singer got his best mate in as manager,
who imposed his own dodgy musical personality on the old band...

Conservative Party in name only...

But the dedicated loyal fanbase still keep dutifully buying their newest released crap CDs
and merchandise tat...


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 29 Mar 20 - 03:35 PM

:-D


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Stanron
Date: 29 Mar 20 - 03:37 PM

Dear pfr

your talents are wasted here. You should start writing novels.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 29 Mar 20 - 03:57 PM

Stan - yeah I was told that by the English teachers at school and 6th form college..

But my factory council estate parents
didn't have an upper middle class privileged old-school-tie social network
of media and publishing contacts....

.. and also playing and partying in a band
was far more fun than sitting in a solitary room with nothing but a typewriter...

Having said that, one of my best mates from grammar school,
who did belong to a middle class arty farty family,
has become a successful novelist and media personality...


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Iains
Date: 29 Mar 20 - 04:09 PM

But the dedicated loyal fanbase still keep dutifully buying their newest released crap CDs
and merchandise tat...

Yup!   populism is a wonderful thing. It placed the Torys back in power with a stonking majority.
Labour by conntrast cannot decide between waxed clinders or 78s, that nobody has the yoke to play them on anyway..... Thus like the graphophone they are consigned to the dustbin of history


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 29 Mar 20 - 04:11 PM

Good reasoned argument, Stanron. Any answer to my question yet?


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Stanron
Date: 29 Mar 20 - 04:22 PM

The Mod has pronounced me a troll. It looks like your side wins.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 29 Mar 20 - 04:22 PM

Iains - just like the blinkered fans of an aging once mildly interesting rock band,
the current tory fan base don't understand,
are completely ignorant of, and biased against,
any other peoples far more vibrant tastes in music...


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: An Buachaill Caol Dubh
Date: 29 Mar 20 - 06:43 PM

@ punkfolkrocker,   And if anyone be adversely critical of their performances, their inevitable response is to retort that another band would be worse with its current line-up.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Mar 20 - 07:04 PM

"The Mod has pronounced me a troll..."

Reminds me of that old Tommy Cooper joke:

Doctor! Doctor! (moving arm...) every time I do this it hurts!

(Doc): Well stop doing it then!


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 29 Mar 20 - 07:39 PM

"The Mod has pronounced me a troll."

Stan - how/where's that then...???

From what little I've mixed with you,
you struck me as one of the more sensible mudcat tory 'activists'...?????


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Jeri
Date: 29 Mar 20 - 07:49 PM

She said his post was trolling. Nobody called him a troll. IMO, he does seem to like getting up people's noses. But again, it's what he does, not what he is.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Iains
Date: 30 Mar 20 - 03:11 AM

PFR How to deal with vibrant music


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Mar 20 - 03:58 AM

"and sadly became a tired weak covers band of itself..."
I agree with all of that Pfr with the exception of "weak"
Unfortunately, by abandoning the former old beliefs that they could run the world as wise, superior elders for the benefit of all, they found a quick-fix to getting what they want
Instead of 'working for the good of the people' as the best of them genuinely believed, they discovered 'Populism' - sell an idea to the people in any way available, then push it through, claiming it was what they had asked for
Brexit was their big breakthrough
The appeal to the traditional xenophobia that was built into by our (my generatn's at least) education system won Brexit - blame the foreigners and incomers for all our troubles and push through a massive leap in the dark which nobody had thought through, not even them
They did it using techniques that destroyed the career of one of their on leading politicians, Enoch Powell - Farage's 'invading hordes' poster was a simplified version of Powell's 'Rivers of Blood' speech
Since then, the Tories have cleansed their ranks of humanitarians and thinkers', and if one of either shows weakness, breaking of ranks or challenges to leadership they are frog-marched out
Cummins and his unelected team are an 'unthink tank' deliberately chosen to come up with an efficiently ruthless way to head for their Brave New World and leave the old velvet-glove tactics behind - his choice of language when building up that team is indicative of the shaking off of the old ways was the shape of things to come "weirdos and Misfits" - using a blog instead of going through 'the usual channels' of selection the Civil Service

After Brexit, Trump took the cue, appealed to America's redneck 'pioneer' streak and won the right to target Mexicans (to start with), build walls and take charge of the supposedly neural groups that run the country - the judiciary, the police, the Army - next stop, the Media
Shortly after, we in Ireland had a Presidential election where a totally unknown, Peter Casey, came from nowhere, appealed to Ireland's hatred of Travellers and got far too many votes - thankfully nowhere near enough

This is happening worldwide now - they are succeeding where the Nazis failed by turning people against their own less-fortunate fellow human beings
Frightening times - it will be interesting to see if the present crisis does anything to wake people up
Who knows, maybe it's Nature's way of restoring the balance !!!!

I'm afraid Stanron is proving as disappointing as the rest
Rather than providing thought-through or even interesting argument, he has resorted to one- liners and evasion - pity
How I miss MtheGM
Maybe the malaise that has inflicted the Tory leadership has spread to its supporters
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Iains
Date: 30 Mar 20 - 04:28 AM

populism
   a political approach that strives to appeal to ordinary people who feel that their concerns are disregarded by established elite groups.

Now what brought this about in the UK?
Remember the Tory quote?
disgrace

The elite group was Labour defying the will of the people and refusing an election.
But populism won and the turkeys were not able to prevent a vote for Christmas.
Populism hammered Labour at the polls and an extremely popular government was voted in. The people regained theiur sovereignty again and destroyed those who would thwart them

Terrible things facts. They beat opinion pieces any day!


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Mar 20 - 05:20 AM

HOLD the LINE people - it's working well so far
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Mar 20 - 05:38 AM

From today's Labour List:

The UK’s coronavirus death toll rose to 1,228 over the weekend, including NHS doctors for the first time. NHS staff are only just starting to be tested now, amid increasing pressure also for personal protective equipment to reach frontline key workers urgently. Remember when the deputy chief medical officer confidently stated on March 20th that the problems around PPE had been “completely resolved”? The latest Lancet editorial was scathing. Editor-in-chief Richard Horton called the handling of coronavirus a “national scandal”, and concluded that as a result of delays and inaction: “Patients will die unnecessarily. NHS staff will die unnecessarily.”

The. Government's response has been inept, disorganised, complacent (herd immunity, anyone? Beat it in twelve weeks?) and tardy. And it's killing people.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Iains
Date: 30 Mar 20 - 05:40 AM

"The people have their way"

That would have been Thursday 12 December 2019.
It is rare we agree on anything!


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: DMcG
Date: 30 Mar 20 - 06:22 AM

So now Cummings is self isolating with symptoms of the coronavirus. He was last seen leaving number 10 just after Johnson made his broadcast saying he had tested positive for the virus.

We don't actually know if they had contact, but it seems extremely likely. Mixing with someone known to have the virus is not exactly a mark of genius, is it?

I suppose like Rees-Mogg, Cummings thinks his common sense means he should not follow expert advice but make his own judgements.

Like Boris, Cummings will probably get through this, as the vast majority do. Whether he will learn anything humility through it is another matter.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Mar 20 - 06:58 AM

"NHS staff will die unnecessarily.”
Their pleas for adequate protection, which began long before the problem became a major one, seem still to be falling on deaf ears
Irish people with relatives in Britain are now demanding why the British Government has dragged its feet
Ireland took its first delivery of medical supplies from China yesterday - three days before its announced arrival
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Iains
Date: 30 Mar 20 - 07:21 AM

Now for an   example of labour lunacy.
The country on lockdown and the halfwit wants to let 70,000 foreigners in. Plenty of young idle hands available in house (so to speak)We had a land army in ww2.
https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/1262160/Sky-News-Kay-Burley-European-workers-coronavirus-news-UK-latest-COVID19-cases-pandemic

and another ( Brought by Guido in video format for the non believers.)
Following in the footsteps of Ian Lavery, in a Zoom call to supporters last week, Rebecca Long-Bailey claimed that the coronavirus crisis gives Labour the chance to campaign. Talking to what she thought was a group of just supporters, the leadership candidate claimed:

   “The case in this crisis is being made very strongly for socialism and we need to make sure that people don’t forget that all of the support that we’re pushing for, it is socialism.“

For the avoidance of doubt, a few months of emergency measures taken now are not socialism, will take years to pay off, and would be disastrous to deploy in normal times.


https://order-order.com/2020/03/30/rebecca-long-bailey-claims-coronavirus-opportunity-labour-campaign/


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 30 Mar 20 - 07:42 AM

A prime example of whataboutism. Labour are in no position to bring any workers in to or from anywhere. The present government is being judged by what it does and it is failing to make the grade. Comparing that against what others may say is risible and dishonest.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Iains
Date: 30 Mar 20 - 08:02 AM

The same is true of constant comparisomns with what the Irish government is doing. In the latter case there would also appear a despicable element of gloating


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: DMcG
Date: 30 Mar 20 - 08:14 AM

The same is true of constant comparisons with what the Irish government is doing

No it isn't. Comparing what the UK does what other countries are doing and the consequences is sensible, whether those leaders be from Ireland, USA, China, Germany or anywhere else. What they do, and the consequences arising, can guide how the UK should or should not behave. If they do things that work, and we choose not to, it is right and proper to ask why not.

Comparing yourself to what people say who are in no position to do anything and there is no way to tell if or how well what they are suggesting would work is simply irrelevant.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Mar 20 - 08:32 AM

"and the consequences is sensible, "
Of course it is - and understandable when you consider how many Irish live in Britain
People here worry about the welfare of their families abroad - 11% of all N.H.S. workers are from Ireland
Once again Health representatives have been demanding why their staff are inadequately protected - one spokesman say that it is preventing many retired staff who wish to return to work during the crisis from doing so
How dare anybody suggest this is gloating ?
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 30 Mar 20 - 08:36 AM

Spot on DMcG. Governments, or anyone for that matter, should not be judged by what they say they will do. Only by what they actually do. Sadly we are in the situation where politicians cannot be trusted to do anything they say they are going to do anyway so the only possible measure is results. Current crisis aside, I have serious doubts whether the current administration will be able to deliver any good results.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 30 Mar 20 - 08:50 AM

What level of doubts do you have that a labour administration would be able to deliver any good results???


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Workingtonman
Date: 30 Mar 20 - 09:00 AM

in my opinion there are plenty of things labour got wrong or could have done better - as an activitist i wish Jeremy corbyn had stood aside a couple of years ago, for example. any other supporters are also full of doubts and we were very amicably split over our choice to nominate the next leadership. more worrying for me is the blind devotion i see in the media and on here to what the government - boris johnson can do no wrong apparently. at it's worst thais adulation can lead to fascism - at best - while party loyalty is a good thing a good friend will have some doubts and be able to constructively criticise. the culling of questioning voices in the tory party is just sinister


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 30 Mar 20 - 09:12 AM

"Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Mar 20 - 03:58 AM
"

As far as the few BS threads I read goes..

Definitely "post of the year"...!!!

We'll never know how good a Labour politician Jim could have been,
but he is definitely one of my favourite elder thinkers,
worth respecting and reading [not deleting],
when he is on form...


As to politicians we do have now or in the future..

Just because we vote for the ones on our sides who put themselves forward in public,
doesn't mean they are up to doing the job well if they do get elected...

Blind uncritical loyalty in the face of obviously poor quality leadership
is a symptom and cause of far worse to come...

Europe learnt that lesson the hardest way, long ago in my Mother's childhood.
The survivors dreamt of and endeavoured to build a better future for humanity..

So futile..

.. and now we have boris and dom...
the politically equivalent devastation of a neutron bomb...!!!


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 30 Mar 20 - 09:15 AM

Worky - we cross posted..
interesting that we indpendently arrive at similar assesments of a bad situation..
Now that I read your post...


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Mar 20 - 09:40 AM

Trying to surmise wot Labour "would have done" in this crisis is just mischievous. The CONTEXT of this situation is TEN YEARS of the Tories running down the health service, and as I indicated yesterday, several years of unpreparedness, neglecting the findings of studies and even ditching them part-through in their brexit obsession. Of course Labour wouldn't have done any better had they won the election: the measures to deal with a crisis such as this one simply weren't in place, and that is one hundred percent the fault of successive inept TORY administrations. You Tories are all so adept at reminding us about the "mess you inherited from Labour" ten years ago (conveniently forgetting, of course, that there had been two years of a GLOBAL financial meltdown), and most of you are still using that stupid excuse. So it's about time YOU admitted responsibility for the current shambles. If you really must surmise, how about surmising how well Labour would have done ten years ago, when no-one waited more than the 18-week target for their ops, when A&E departments were running well and not being shut down, when we had thousands more doctors and nurses and when patients even in benign times weren't queuing on trolleys in corridors. Now that WOULD be a fair way of looking at it.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Mar 20 - 09:47 AM

And by the way, as of today this country has the capacity to carry out nine thousand tests a day but is managing just seven thousand. Germany is carrying out one hundred thousand tests a day and is expecting to double that in a few days' time. As we don't have a vaccine, the only really effective way to battle the virus is to test like crazy and trace all contacts. If South Korea can do it and Germany can do it, why can't we? Instead, as a result of past Tory policies (or lack of), we are ruining thousands of businesses, throwing millions out of work and building a massive debt for future generations to pay off the likes of which have never been seen.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 30 Mar 20 - 10:47 AM

Right now it's more appropriate to consider all the costly time and tax payer's money wasting
ideological follies, white elephants, and vanity projects,
that all recent UK governments have been guilty of..

Time and money that should have been devoted to fundamentals
such as planning effectively for know plausible emergencies...!!!

They are guilty of populist distractions and stupidity verging on criminal negligence...


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Mar 20 - 10:50 AM

Isn't it fascinating to see people championing the wishes of the people by describing pupulism as democracy when the same people have regarded the peoples decision with contempt when it runs counter to their own ?
I think that sums up both populism and today's take on democracy perfectly
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 30 Mar 20 - 11:59 AM

What level of doubts do you have that a labour administration would be able to deliver any good results???

I may or may not have doubts, Bonzo, but it just doesn't matter. We can say for certain what Boris has or has not done. You can only speculate what would have happened in other circumstances. There is no comparison. And you still haven't told us whether it is Rebecca Long-Bailey's gender, social status or place of birth that you object to.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Mar 20 - 12:04 PM

Just got a phnone call which reminded us how decent (most) people are deep down
Pat and I had not long finished discussing what we were going to do if 'cocooning' became compulsory fo people like us, which is likely when an elderly neighbour several years our senior called to ask us if we were managing to feed ourselves and saying her half-German son had offered to pick up anything we needed from town for as long as we needed him
Put's the Nigel Farages, Bernard Mannings, Jim Davidsons - and English absentee landlords firmly where they belong in the humanity stakes

"verging on criminal negligence..."
Amen to that - as long as they don't start feckin' about with Casualty, Holby City and Scott and Bailey :-)
Bad enough when the football gets them cancelled
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 30 Mar 20 - 12:12 PM

I object to her still stubbornly using the political suicide word "socialism"
[if it's true, as reported by news media and bloggers..???]...

She'll have to wise up to the realities of the outside world,
if she does become leader...


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 30 Mar 20 - 12:21 PM

Quoted in full so that I am not accused of taking it out of context:
And by the way, as of today this country has the capacity to carry out nine thousand tests a day but is managing just seven thousand. Germany is carrying out one hundred thousand tests a day and is expecting to double that in a few days' time. As we don't have a vaccine, the only really effective way to battle the virus is to test like crazy and trace all contacts. If South Korea can do it and Germany can do it, why can't we? Instead, as a result of past Tory policies (or lack of), we are ruining thousands of businesses, throwing millions out of work and building a massive debt for future generations to pay off the likes of which have never been seen.

Testing and tracing only serves to identify the problem.
Lockdown and 'Social Distancing' are measures that can actually be effective.
So to say that tracing and testing are an effective way to "battle the virus" is totally wrong, even if it does come from a self-proclaimed 'scientist'.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 30 Mar 20 - 12:26 PM

So you all think you know better than the medical advisers to our government!!!


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Iains
Date: 30 Mar 20 - 12:27 PM

if it's true, as reported by news media and bloggers..???]...

Do you really believe the posted video was faked?????????????
(after all it was brought to public attention by Guido, the man you have yet to catch lying!)


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: DMcG
Date: 30 Mar 20 - 12:29 PM

As a reminder, here is what the WHO said:

====
The World Health Organization called on all countries on Monday to ramp up their testing programs as the best way to slow the advance of the coronavirus pandemic, and also urged companies to boost production of vital equipment to overcome acute shortages.

“We have a simple message to all countries - test, test, test,” WHO Director General Tedros Adhanom Ghebreyesus told a news conference in Geneva, calling the pandemic “the defining global health crisis of our time”.


WHO calls for "change of mindset" to overcome pandemic shortages
“All countries should be able to test all suspected cases, they cannot fight this pandemic blindfolded.”
Without testing, cases cannot be isolated and the chain of infection will not be broken, he said.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 30 Mar 20 - 12:33 PM

Bonz - who does..???

I don't...

But it does depend on the specific medical advisers 'our govt' select to listen to..

We'll have to trust they are brilliant well qualified independent advisers,
and not carefully chosen to agree with partisan tory agenda...


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 30 Mar 20 - 12:37 PM

Iains - sorry.. I don't have time / can't be arsed to click all your selective links...

Besides, I've already made my views clear in the past months,
that I'm not too impressed with the current bunch of hopefuls
competing for Labour Leadership...


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Iains
Date: 30 Mar 20 - 12:47 PM

Pat and I had not long finished discussing what we were going to do if 'cocooning' became compulsory fo people like us,

Compulsory or advisory. Does it make any difference when it is for your own benefit?

Gov i.e. states:If you are over 70 years of age or have a condition which makes you extremely medically vulnerable you are strongly advised to cocoon, to reduce the chance of getting COVID-19 and follow the face-to-face distancing measures below........... published 27/3/20


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 30 Mar 20 - 12:50 PM

Though, I should qualify that with..

"Not too impressed so far..."

The future is no where near as clear cut as it was mere weeks ago,
when boris/dom celebrated victory...


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 30 Mar 20 - 01:01 PM

Effective testing and tracing would make distancing far better as when the authorities know who is affected and where they can concentrate their efforts in the right areas. In countries where testing is extensive the spread is better contained than in countries that are not testing as well as they could. Partisan support of the government of the day, whethet they are right or wrong, is simply foolish.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Mar 20 - 01:14 PM

To break a resolution for a minute so people who seem not to be are aware of the position of very many rural dwellers in Ireland, and I presume in Britain
Many live on their own, have no family or close friends and are quite often reluctant to bother neighbours who, they believe have enough to cope with as it is
We live a mile outside town and on a fairly busy road which has been spookily quiet for some time now
Many are not as lucky as us and live in remote scattered farmhouses up fairly inaccessible roads
The local shops are simply not equipped to do home deliveries and social services are unable to cope at the best of times
I lived in Britain's capital for thirty years and read regularly of solitary people dying at home and nor being found for days - weeks - months in some cases
I even read about fire survivors who narrowly escaped death in a horrific inferno being refused the use of vacant property because that would have gone against the 'Private Property' ethos that dominates Britain - I'm sure you must have heard about this yourself :-)
The PLanet Zog that some people appear to inhabit may have this sort of thing in hand - not here, I'm afraid
If there's something us oldies have had to come to terms with is that despite having devoted our lives and taxes to our country, our best chances of staying alive are to rely on each other and not those who we put in power to look after our well being - they are far, far too busy looking after themselves to bother about us crumblies
Over and out - I'll go to confession tonight to ask forgiveness for my breaking my 'British Summertime' resolution !
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Workingtonman
Date: 30 Mar 20 - 01:16 PM

i owe my friend steve a pint (steve d not steve s) promised for the day the pubs reopen if we -and the pubs- make it through. other than can we cancel all debts please? from student loans, to hospital trusts pfi scams, benefit loans, mortgages, car loans, bank loans etc. that's the way to boost an economy. free rent for pubs and other socially important enterprises. what's the problem?


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Mar 20 - 01:24 PM

"Testing and tracing only serves to identify the problem.
Lockdown and 'Social Distancing' are measures that can actually be effective.
So to say that tracing and testing are an effective way to "battle the virus" is totally wrong, even if it does come from a self-proclaimed 'scientist'."

Hmmm. Maybe I shouldn't be responding to an ill-thought out post containing a gratuitous personal insult (parroting the self-same insult cheerfully employed by you-know-who...) However. We have yet to see solid evidence that a "lockdown" (that still permits crowded buses, tube trains and workplaces) can be effective. Testing, contact tracing (and subsequent action with regard to those tested positive, it should go without saying, but who knows with you, Nigel?) have been shown to be effective in China, Singapore, Hong Kong and South Korea. At least one of those places hasn't even needed a lockdown. Spain and Italy both have severe lockdowns, but you'd have to try very hard to persuade a lot of people that they've somehow done much good. It stands to reason that knowing who is infected, who isn't, and preferably also who has recovered, gives a country a good head start in controlling the outbreak. And I'll unscientifically predict that the mass testing in Germany will shortly be seen to have paid dividends.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Mar 20 - 01:32 PM

"from student loans, to hospital trusts pfi scams, benefit loans, mortgages, car loans, bank loans etc. that's the way to boost an economy. free rent for pubs and other socially important enterprises"
I think that has to be a must if countries are going to survive, never mind families
It was interesting to learn this morning that all evictions of Travellers have ceased ans temporary bans on rent rises are now being considered - it will be interesting to see how the latter will be received in Ireland's Vulture Capitalism dominated property industry - damn - I'd forgotten our local betting shop is for the durtion
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 30 Mar 20 - 01:56 PM

Survivalist preppers may have been a bit of a joke..

But from now on, it's time Governments [left or right..]
learn the fundamental basics from them...


Btw.. How sick a joke would it be,
if there are still disused cold war bunkers in Britain,
locked up and forgotten, fully stocked with essential medical survival kits and respirators,
buried in dust & mould, and rotting away...???


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Iains
Date: 30 Mar 20 - 01:59 PM

Jim you first point I have to agree with you. It goes deeper than you state. Rural isolation and loneliness impact suicide figures and closing the marts and other places where farmers may congregate compounds the problem for them, as did the tightening of drink drive laws. Obviously complying with the government edict is going to be a non starter for some.

https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/lifestyle/healthandlife/all-the-lonely-people-epidemic-of-loneliness-is-leading-to-ch


https://www.independent.ie/business/farming/rural-life/farmers-among-those-most-likely-to-die-by-suicide-36723840.html

Perhaps the man mentioned last week with ref to Gougan Barra should be listened to. (Jan 1, 2020 - Michael Healy-Rae: Upsurge in feckers Drug driving is evidence that Government should relax the Irish Drink Driving laws.)    A rather novel take on the situation.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Mar 20 - 02:02 PM

"i owe my friend steve a pint (steve d not steve s)"

I hear that steve d has gorn teetotal. Can I have it instead? :-)

steve s


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Workingtonman
Date: 30 Mar 20 - 02:08 PM

bloody spivs, always trying to capitalise on other folk's misfortune


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Mar 20 - 02:24 PM

I blame Thatcher.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 30 Mar 20 - 02:44 PM

Thatcher would have privatised pandemics...

If only she'd done that..

By now they'd be as hard to catch as a local bus...


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Mar 20 - 07:38 PM

"if there are still disused cold war bunkers in Britain",
Before I was self employed when I worked for a firm that occasionally did Government work I was told about RSGs (Regional Seats of Government)
These were large secret bunkers intended to house 'Important People' in the case of nuclear Attack
I knew they had existed during wartime and shortly after, but my informant assured me they were still in existence, still fully maintained and kept stocked in case of an emergency
Does anybody have the time - my doomsday clock has stopped !!
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Mar 20 - 08:17 PM

I should have explained that when I was told this I was working in a Pub near the Houses of Parliament and the RSG was said to be for the Parliamentarians
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 31 Mar 20 - 03:24 AM

A pretty damning analysis by Rupert Reid.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 Mar 20 - 03:41 AM

Wow - terrifying when it's delivered with authority by an expert in one calm, articulate statement
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Iains
Date: 31 Mar 20 - 04:11 AM

Jim, they   do/did exist. The regional control center in North Cheam was demolished in the 70's and a block of flats built on the site. My grandfather was told to get lost when he asked why the excavation was so deep during construction in the early 50s(He had been an engineer for the London Metropoltan Waterboard)
As bombs became larger excavations in clay offered little protection. Most if not all bunkers were inadaquate,including the deepbunkers on the northern line dating from ww2 and including Eisenhower's bunker at Googe street(or so the story goes)


https://www.subbrit.org.uk/sites/cheam-south-west-london-group-control/

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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 Mar 20 - 04:15 AM

Hope yuo don't mind Dave - I've taken the liberty of passing on your link to a couple of other threads in case some people have become tired of listening to ous whining Brits !
It's important enough not to miss
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 31 Mar 20 - 04:54 AM

I don't mind at all, Jim. It's not my link, I just brought it to your attention! The more that people hear what Dr Reid has to say, the better :-)


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: DMcG
Date: 31 Mar 20 - 05:02 AM

A live feed reports encouraging news from Ireland. It is important not to be chicken-counting, but with luck this will continue.

Let us also hope the UK can report similar things soon.

======
Encouraging news from Ireland: the daily growth rate in confirmed cases of coronavirus has halved and the country appears to have avoided an unmitigated epidemic.

Restrictions on social and commercial life and other measures have had an “enormous” impact, Philip Nolan, the Chair of The Irish Epidemiological Modelling Group, told a media briefing.

“The measures that the state has imposed and that the public have really complied with very, very strongly are having an enormous effect on the number of actual cases that we’re seeing today.”

However Nolan warned against complacency and said Covid-19’s growth rate would have to fall to “close to zero” for it to be suppressed.

The chief medical officer, Tony Holohan, agreed Ireland was seeing “encouraging signs” in the effort to flatten the curve but said the number of cases and admissions to intensive care units continued to rise, putting hospitals at risk of being swamped. Officials are especially concerned about clusters in nursing homes and hospitals.

Ireland on Monday confirmed 295 new cases, the second highest daily number, bringing the total to 2,910. It recorded eight deaths, bringing the death toll to 54. Northern Ireland has 533 confirmed cases and 22 deaths.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 31 Mar 20 - 06:16 AM

Steve Shaw:
Your latest response shows that you finally understand the problem with your earlier post: the only really effective way to battle the virus is to test like crazy and trace all contacts.
Testing and tracing are not, alone, going to effect the virus or its spread. Action needs to be taken on the results. This is not quantum mechanics where (according to Heisenberg) the testing itself has an effect on the subject matter.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Iains
Date: 31 Mar 20 - 06:18 AM

If you look at a graph of the daily rate of infections in Ireland and the UK they both show similar behaviour in levelling out. But it is too early to be a convincing trend. London may well trend differently simply because of the density of population. The numbers infected in Britain has been dropping for the last three days, as have Ireland. Hopefully the trend will hold and continue to diminish on a daily basis.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 31 Mar 20 - 06:33 AM

As I said, Nigel, that goes without saying, except to you, to whom it needed saying. That's Nigel through and through, innit.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Iains
Date: 31 Mar 20 - 06:42 AM

Half my last post vanished for some inexplicable reason. So below is the necessary link

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/
Scroll down to the table, double click the country and thegraphs open up.

Some seem to overlook the fact that the exercise is not to eradicate the virus but control the rate of spread.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 31 Mar 20 - 06:54 AM

From today's Labour List:

"It transpired yesterday that ministers had claimed we had reached the government target of 10,000 tests a day – as Matt Hancock tweeted, and Michael Gove told the Sunday shows – but that was not accurate. They are now saying this referred to testing capacity, which went up to 10,949, whereas tests actually carried out was just over 9,000 and the number of individuals tested was 7,000. However, we now know that the level of daily testing then fell to fewer than 5,000 people in the 24 hours before 9am on Saturday. Only 900 frontline staff were tested over the weekend in a ‘trial run’, according to Downing Street.

The simple fact is that the UK, as articulated by Professor Antony Costello and others, has been too slow. The government has failed to contact UK clothes makers who are willing and able to produce PPE. While wasting time is a key ongoing failure, there is also a serious lack of transparency. There is no real clarity about why the testing capacity isn’t being used, as Labour’s Jon Ashworth has highlighted. NHS doctors have also told The Independent that they have been gagged from speaking out about shortages, with their social media posts being monitored and careers threatened.

The handling of coronavirus has been described as a “national scandal” by prestigious medical journal The Lancet, by trade unions, by NHS staff. And yet there is apparently overwhelming public approval of the government response to the crisis. Boris Johnson's satisfaction ratings have increased to 72%, recent polling found. Some like to hold up such numbers to imply that criticism should therefore be toned down – especially from Labour representatives, who could be accused of point-scoring at a time of national crisis*. But as all of the above shows, there are urgent failings that must be brought to attention."

*Of which I myself have been accused here. In a democracy, valid criticism of the government is suppressed at our peril, and those who would suppress it veer towards totalitarianism.

Lies, damned lies, twisted statistics, fake news...


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 31 Mar 20 - 07:46 AM

The 2 NHS Nightingale hospitals, which were built in *one week* is an incredible achievement and everyone involved should be very proud.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 Mar 20 - 08:16 AM

"The 2 NHS Nightingale hospitals,"
The head of this hospital has just announced on television that protection for the medical staff is woefully inadequate, putting their lives and well being at risk every time they go into work- this appeal is now several weeks old
Yas Bozo - irt is aan incredible achievement - what a crying shame the Government are giving the medical staff the support they vitally need to do their work

There seem two messages coming out here - both in my opinion, equally valid
The official version is "We;re doing fine and are on top of the problem" - essential to prevent widespread panic
From those actually faced with tackling the virus face-on there have been demands for adequate equipment being made for weeks now
Until this particular circle is squared all the good-news propaganda will be meaningless
Get a grip you lot - it's your party - stop covering up for the tardiness of these 'Clowns in Clover' - it's you and me at risk - they'll be whisked into intensive care if they sneeze over the pepper
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: DMcG
Date: 31 Mar 20 - 08:22 AM

Creating the 'Nightingale' hospitals is indeed an important step, and I do not downplay its significance.

But creating the building is the easiest and the least important part of the whole thing in many ways. The doctors, nurses, medical supplies and so on are nothing like so easy to get as converting a building. Yes, I know lots are coming out of retirement. But we are also losing a lot at the moment through necessary isolation.

The NHS staff have worked incredibly hard to get where we are, but sustaining that intensity over perhaps six months rather than two weeks is going to be a huge ask.

The buildings are one vital part of the jigsaw. But only one part.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 31 Mar 20 - 08:52 AM

nevertheless, putting party political drivel aside, the 2 NHS Nightingale hospitals, which were built in *one week* is an incredible achievement and everyone involved should be very proud.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Iains
Date: 31 Mar 20 - 08:56 AM

it's you and me at risk
I suggest you take up your crtiticism with the country you are resident in!
Last time I looked at a map County Clare was not a part of the UK.

You are not very consistant are you? One moment you say Ireland is leading the way, then you say you are at risk.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 Mar 20 - 09:26 AM

"nevertheless, putting party political drivel aside"
Nothing Party political about it Bozo, any more than 'nationalist' as your friend would have it
We are all at risk - those living under a Government that does its job properly are less at risk and wherever we live, if you silence Brits you are covering up the blunders of your own administration, which directly affects members of my family
Stop wagging flags and face facts otherwise you become part of the problem
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 31 Mar 20 - 09:34 AM

Wag wag wag wag wag wag!!!


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: DMcG
Date: 31 Mar 20 - 09:35 AM

everyone involved should be very proud

All the builders, manufacturers, designers, labourers and so on, I quite agree. They have worked hard and done all that could have been expected of them. Praiseworthy indeed.

But if the nurses and doctors are simply taken from elsewhere in the system, they have built a PR exercise more than a hospital, since that does not in itself increase the total care available. And that would not something to be proud of.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 31 Mar 20 - 09:37 AM

Iains - we already refuted your petty false argument about Jim's right to comment on Britain..
If you can't remember that from a mere day or two ago...???

..personally I'd be worried, if I had such serious short term memory loss...


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 31 Mar 20 - 09:41 AM

Are those Nightingales primarily intended as mass end of life hospice wards...???


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: DMcG
Date: 31 Mar 20 - 09:42 AM

I see the visas have been extended for the NHS workers from overseas for a year. That is a very sensible move (See, I can praise the government when it does the right thing, even when it is Priti Patel!)

A significant proportion of our nurses come from the Philippines. The last thing we want is to lose them because of visas expiring.

I find it surprising that - as yet - the government of the Philippines has not offered substantial packages to those nurses to return home and look after their own country, friends and family. If they do, and they make it tempting enough, that could be another huge problem to solve.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Iains
Date: 31 Mar 20 - 09:44 AM

If Jim wishes to play thevictim card it is not unreasonable to expect that he does not lie.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 Mar 20 - 10:06 AM

Obviously pretty much a waste of time trying to communicate with these two using words of more that two syllables P - Shirley Valentine got a more intelligent response from her kitchen wall
"because of visas expiring."
Nah that'll wait til the crisis is over and (if) Brexit kicks in; then they can send all the applications to Croydon for shredding
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 31 Mar 20 - 10:28 AM

But if the nurses and doctors are simply taken from elsewhere in the system, they have built a PR exercise more than a hospital, since that does not in itself increase the total care available. And that would not something to be proud of.

It may not provide more carers, but it does have a definite benefit in that staff (doctors/nurses/cleaners etc) are not mixing with two sets of patients, those with Covid19 and those in hospital for other reasons, possibly with weakened immune systems. This avoidance of cross-contamination is very important and shouldn't be belittled.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Workingtonman
Date: 31 Mar 20 - 10:38 AM

it seems a while ago that we were discussing whether we were able to offer criticism of our own preferred political parties. us 'left' folk did offer a few examples but are still waiting for the supporters and apologists for johnson and his party to offer similar more balanced criticisms of their own 'side' --

anyone recall the good old days when we repeatedly asked for examples of the benefits of brexit?

As trump (or the tories in england) is victorious, great and never wrong - are you going to the church to give praise at easter?


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Iains
Date: 31 Mar 20 - 10:48 AM

https://twitter.com/eyespymp/status/1244970232432726019?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1244970232432726019

1) Ignore cocconing for over 70s. Check
2) Ignore social distancing .    Check
3) Ignore instruction to stop unnecessary journeys. Check

That is Jeremy Corbyn for you!


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Raggytash
Date: 31 Mar 20 - 10:58 AM

Well, lets see.

Corbyn is seated which would seem to suggest that he has not moved to be within 2 metres of the other chap but that the chap standing has moved to within 2 metres of Corbyn.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Workingtonman
Date: 31 Mar 20 - 11:00 AM

what a surreal conversation .....


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 Mar 20 - 11:08 AM

It seems that moving carers about like chess pieces is preferable to providing protection for them all
It's getting to be like an episode of 'The Prisoner'

Even the BBC , 13 weeks ago, was aware of what the Government are still dragging their feet on now
AND IF YOU'RE IN NEED OF HELP ALREADY !!!!
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: DMcG
Date: 31 Mar 20 - 11:29 AM

Some of us are closer to The Prisoner than others.


I could not be bothered to change into the full get-up at the moment, though I wore it all on my last day at work. "I am not a number, I am a free man!"


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Iains
Date: 31 Mar 20 - 11:33 AM

The leader of Her Majesties Opposition is supposed to set an example!
A piss-poor one is not quite what most people had in mind.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 31 Mar 20 - 11:52 AM

Iains - you seem to be floundering a bit today..
Resorting to your lower standard tactics trying to provoke a response..

Hasn't it been made clear enough that now is not a time for block headed
divisive party politicking..

.. and yes, criticising the inadequacies of the ruling govt of the the day
is a legitimate requirement in a democracy..

I'd be having a go at Labour ministers if they were in power,
and failing to cope effectively with a pandemic...


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 31 Mar 20 - 12:06 PM

It's not often that the entire human race is in the same boat - except of course North Diarrehea!!!


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 Mar 20 - 12:13 PM

For Christ's sake PFK
These are the twats who refused to comment on the fact that a bunch of Tory ministers and advisers were photographed bunched together on a flight of stairs in the full knowledge that two of them, The Prime Minister and Health Secretary had already contracted the virus
SOME ******* "GOOD EXAMPLE EH ???
Floundering more than a little, I'd say
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 Mar 20 - 12:32 PM

SELF-DISTANCING, DOWNING STREET STYLE
There you go - an example to us all
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Iains
Date: 31 Mar 20 - 12:35 PM

I'd be having a go at Labour ministers if they were in power,
and failing to cope effectively with a pandemic...


Well positive news. Time to congratulate the government for a sterling effort!

Michael Gove

Of the NHS's ventilator capacity he added: "Orders have been placed and I can announce that this weekend the first thousand ventilator machines will roll off the production line.

"They will be delivered to the NHS next week."
This is a time for absolute clarity and accuracy, not carping and nit picking. Matthew 7:5


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 31 Mar 20 - 12:50 PM

Jim:
There's no need to continue posting links to that picture of ministers on the Downing Street stairs.
As it says below the picture: 'I shook hands with everybody,' says Boris Johnson weeks before coronavirus diagnosis – video
That Guardian link is from 27 March, so 'weeks before' must take it back at least until 13 March, which was before any UK guidance on self-isolation, or on 'social distancing'.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 31 Mar 20 - 12:52 PM

I don't like gove.. I certainly distrust gove..
.. and if I were a tory, i wouldn't turn my back to gove.
unless I was wearing a stab proof vest..


But if he is the bearer of genuinely positive news.. Thanks..

AS long as he don't make too much of a personal PR opportunity out of it...


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 31 Mar 20 - 12:57 PM

Nigel - boris is cooped up in a converted pigeon loft above number 11
with a confirmed positive test..

Thats's NOW, not weeks ago..
that must say something about the poor judgement of such a clot...

Even trump seems to have been more proactively/preemptively protected from himself
by his closest handlers...


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 Mar 20 - 01:10 PM

" 'I shook hands with everybody,' says Boris Johnson weeks before coronavirus diagnosis – video"
It doesn't say that his shaking hands relates to the photograph, which was taken outside the meeting covered by the article
The same photograph was used in various newspapers, making the same point - some clown at Westminster spread the bug
Lets face it - if a man moving towards a seated opposition leader is comment-worthy what the hell is this ?
The fact that Johnson wasn't being tested after a Minister contacted the virus answers that one - as you have yet to
None of your lot seem to be too bovvered about the treatment of health workers on the front line either
Makes you proud to be a Brit eh?
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 31 Mar 20 - 01:11 PM

My favourite conspiracy theory [which I might have made up..]

is boris actually never tested positive at all, and has been clear of the virus all along..

But gove told him the test came back positive,
as he urgently ushered the PM up to the roof
for a week or two...!!!

Tories - NEVER TRUST GOVE...!!!!!!!


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 Mar 20 - 01:25 PM

"is boris actually never tested positive at all, and has been clear of the virus all along.."
Great minds - except I thought more in terms of a sympathy f*** - shame on us both
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 31 Mar 20 - 01:27 PM

Any congratulations are premature. Wait until the measures save lives and see if we come through this relatively unscathed. It is to be hoped that the government will use any respite brought about by social distancing to implement a proper text and trace regime like South Korea.

As to what the leader of the Labour party may or may not be guilty of, I repeat that the party in control of the country is the Tories. Boris is at the helm. Whatever goes wrong is firmly at his door. The opposition, as has been pointed out by gloating right wingers, can do nothing of any significance. Drawing attention to anything the Labour party may say or do is nothing but noise to divert attention from the failings of the present administration.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Iains
Date: 31 Mar 20 - 01:55 PM

Iains - you seem to be floundering a bit today.
I never flounder, I know my plaice and I'm a dab hand at quoting facts. I never rely on cod science.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 31 Mar 20 - 02:00 PM

But your main problem is..

you frequently try too hard to convince us
you have no sole...


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 31 Mar 20 - 02:07 PM

btw.. 10 full points to anyone who can work in "halibut"..

It defeated my efforts...


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 31 Mar 20 - 02:30 PM

I was going to see the Halle but the concert has been cancwlled.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 Mar 20 - 02:31 PM

""halibut"."
We'll have to put that one to halibutration, I think, then we'll see the whiting on the wall
Holby City calls I'm afraid
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Workingtonman
Date: 31 Mar 20 - 03:06 PM

could you tory boys, just to appear like resonable well-balanced people for a change, just give voice to some doubts or equivocations about your glorious leaders - go on - just for the halibut. we won't tell on you - ian duncan or ian smith


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 31 Mar 20 - 03:54 PM

Many singers have been broadcasting concerts from their homes, we watched the wonderful Soledad Pastorutti, an Argentine superstar over dinner!!


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Iains
Date: 31 Mar 20 - 03:55 PM

We are too koi to carp.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: An Buachaill Caol Dubh
Date: 31 Mar 20 - 04:32 PM

Sally used to live in our alley but not any more.

Just saw in passing a bit of a TV doc here about one of HRH Charlie's various properties, a farm complex somewhere in Wales. The plummy voiced narrator, having described it as a Cottage, went on confidently and comfortably to enunciate that a building further removed from a palace could hardly be imagined. Has this creature never seen a tenement, a tower-block, a terrace of little back-to-back units?

How do so many people put up with this drivel?
How much do those in other countries laugh at us?
How much longer can "the juggle" (Thomas Paine, 1790s) continue?

Pure ragin' so Ah'm urr.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 31 Mar 20 - 04:38 PM

What you mean is that the narrator speaks properly.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: An Buachaill Caol Dubh
Date: 31 Mar 20 - 04:42 PM

No, he didn't, to tell ye the truth. He pronounced "properly" with only two syllables, an affectation of the English upper-middle class since about 1975/1980. And the message struck me as even more unpleasant than the accent.


"When the Sage points at the Moon, the Fool looks at his finger."


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 31 Mar 20 - 06:09 PM

I could agree with you but then we'd both be wrong!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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Subject: RE: BS: UK politics. Last ditch attempt
From: An Buachaill Caol Dubh
Date: 31 Mar 20 - 06:25 PM

"Right or Wrong, I'm Right."

ABCD


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Mudcat time: 31 March 9:19 PM EDT

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