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BS: Rally round the Trump

Donuel 12 Dec 19 - 06:47 AM
Donuel 12 Dec 19 - 06:52 AM
Donuel 12 Dec 19 - 09:50 AM
Donuel 12 Dec 19 - 09:54 AM
Donuel 12 Dec 19 - 10:30 AM
Raggytash 12 Dec 19 - 10:43 AM
Mrrzy 12 Dec 19 - 11:12 AM
meself 12 Dec 19 - 12:55 PM
Mossback 12 Dec 19 - 01:06 PM
Joe Offer 12 Dec 19 - 01:50 PM
EBarnacle 12 Dec 19 - 01:55 PM
robomatic 12 Dec 19 - 02:31 PM
Donuel 12 Dec 19 - 03:51 PM
Donuel 12 Dec 19 - 04:50 PM
gillymor 12 Dec 19 - 04:53 PM
Donuel 12 Dec 19 - 05:00 PM
gillymor 12 Dec 19 - 05:04 PM
Joe Offer 12 Dec 19 - 05:18 PM
Donuel 12 Dec 19 - 05:48 PM
Joe Offer 12 Dec 19 - 07:11 PM
Donuel 12 Dec 19 - 07:51 PM
Joe Offer 12 Dec 19 - 08:53 PM
robomatic 12 Dec 19 - 09:14 PM
EBarnacle 12 Dec 19 - 10:46 PM
Joe Offer 13 Dec 19 - 02:40 AM
Mr Red 13 Dec 19 - 03:54 AM
Joe Offer 13 Dec 19 - 04:55 AM
Donuel 13 Dec 19 - 06:13 AM
Donuel 13 Dec 19 - 07:28 AM
EBarnacle 13 Dec 19 - 09:02 PM
robomatic 13 Dec 19 - 10:13 PM
Iains 14 Dec 19 - 05:37 AM
Donuel 15 Dec 19 - 11:08 AM
Donuel 15 Dec 19 - 11:17 AM
Iains 15 Dec 19 - 11:19 AM
Donuel 15 Dec 19 - 12:46 PM
Iains 15 Dec 19 - 12:55 PM
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Subject: BS: Rally round the Trump
From: Donuel
Date: 12 Dec 19 - 06:47 AM

Subject: America has LOST THE WAR
From: Donuel - PM
Date: 20 Sep 01 - 08:27 AM

There is already a Billion dollar monument in Washington DC to our defeat. The National Airport is closed indefitetly.
Rather than immediately equip flights with any viable defense (that could defeat a boxcutter)it is virtually business as usual at 40% flight reductions, 100,000 layoffs and bankruptcies. There is already a defiling/defeat of our Constitution. It took Walter Cronkite this morning to explain that the Bush administration policy of disallowing any journalist or civilian cameras access to "the war" as well as the rules for search and seizure suspended without so much as a review board.
We have declared war on John Doe. The Supream Court selected President said "we will destroy all evil in the world, Were gonna git those terrist folks, huntem,smokem,bringem ta justice dead or alive...in our crusade", and many other stammering utterences so childish as to qualify as a new low in history. In the use/misuse of the english language we seem to be most forgiving.
It is forcast our strong suit will be staying power of 15 or more years at war. As the WTC is now referred to with 3 or more adjectives , by the time a cessation of hostilities is ever achieved, there will be no adjectives for the WTC since it will be overshadowed my many worse events.
America has already lost because of the lost freedom that was so anxiously surrendered due to the "horrible senseless trajedy" at the WTC.

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Subject: RE: BS: America has LOST THE WAR
From: kendall - PM
Date: 20 Sep 01 - 08:44 AM

No, we havn't lost, yet, the Sears tower still stands, the White House is unscathed, the statue of Paul Bunyon in Bangor Maine is still there.

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Subject: RE: BS: America has LOST THE WAR
From: Amos - PM
Date: 20 Sep 01 - 08:50 AM

Donuel:
This is a stupid thing to say and do.

A


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Subject: RE: BS: America has LOST THE WAR
From: Troll - PM
Date: 20 Sep 01 - 09:00 AM

Now, now Amos. It's not nice to tell someone they've done something stupid.
Unless you're a talking to some one who doesn't agree with you who happens to be a little right of center.
They're fair game.
troll


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Subject: RE: BS: America has LOST THE WAR
From: Troll - PM
Date: 20 Sep 01 - 09:06 AM

Also remember Amos, never try to teach a pig to sing.
It wastes your time and it annoys the pig.
troll


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Subject: RE: BS: America has LOST THE WAR
From: flattop - PM
Date: 20 Sep 01 - 09:09 AM

Use your brain Donuel. Take your time. Read a bit of history. Look at how much of America that hasn't been crippled. People, including leaders will adjust from day to day.
Remember what what's-his-name said to John Travolta, "When we were good we were never as good as they thought we were. When we bad we were never as bad as they thought we were." Walter Concrete won't have the last word. One of us will argue. Given margins of errors and margins of cheating on both sides, Bush is as legitimate as the other guy and he might be better in a crisis. Who knows?


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Subject: RE: BS: America has LOST THE WAR
From: GUEST,Clancy - PM
Date: 20 Sep 01 - 09:25 AM

We haven't even started. The only way we can lose the war against terrorism is by betraying our own principles of decency, fairness and justice. Someone has been watching too much talk show TV over the last week...
Bush is our President. I didn't vote for him, but I'm not asking for a recount now, Donuel. We don't need to bomb Afganistan into the stone age...they're already there, and anyone who could fly, drive, run, limp or crawl has already abandoned the Taliban's bankrupt regime.

There's an overreaction that comes with the sudden realization that, hey, maybe we SHOULD have paid attention to Gary Hart and the others on the Commission that studied and reported on terrorism. It said we would face this much and worse...and it did so a few months ago.

Thank God for Americans, Donuel...we don't give up so easily. I'm not saying you're chicken, but you sure are demonstrating some "hen-house ways!"


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Subject: RE: BS: America has LOST THE WAR
From: Skeptic - PM
Date: 20 Sep 01 - 09:26 AM

We are not at war. Maybe after Bush's speech tonight we will be, if Congress so votes. Not sure who we would declare war on but we'll see.
As I understand it, under State of Emergency declarations, the President has far more powers to temporally suspend things (already in Law). If War is declared by Congress, they have to start authorizing things like keeping the press out (deja vu: Desert Storm), suspending habeas corpus and so on.

BTW, the conspiracy sights are having a field day as their scenario for the powers that be getting rid of the Constitution, suspending elections and so on has always been for a permanant state of emergency to be declared.

But we should be troubled by the press thing. Censoring after the fact (as was done in WWII) is one thing. This is another and is a little ominous.

Regards

John


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Subject: RE: BS: America has LOST THE WAR
From: Dave the Gnome - PM
Date: 20 Sep 01 - 09:30 AM

YOU have already lost, Donuel, and anyone else who thinks like that. Give up at the first sign of trouble? Concede defeat and run away like scared rabits? Presuming you are in the US, what happened to the spirit that fought off the British oppression? What happened to the power that led the world? I guess it still lingers on in the millions upon millions of Americans who will not accept defeat at the hands of a bully.
The British did not accept it at Dunkirk or during the Blitz - and that spirit helped us hold out until allies came to our aid. Don't give up like that. Stick it out, everyone is already with you.

I am NOT advocating violence or retaliation btw - just the opposite. It is a strong man indeed who will not accept defeat from either his enemies or his own emotions!

Cheers

Dave the Gnome


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Subject: RE: BS: America has LOST THE WAR
From: GUEST,Yeah but... - PM
Date: 20 Sep 01 - 09:48 AM

Wasn't Walter Cronkite the guy who thought that the Tet offensive was a stunning strategic victory for the North Vietnamese?

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Subject: RE: BS: America has LOST THE WAR
From: GUEST,Gimli - PM
Date: 20 Sep 01 - 10:04 AM

"Faithless is he who leaves the path when at its darkest"

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Subject: RE: BS: America has LOST THE WAR
From: Kim C - PM
Date: 20 Sep 01 - 10:04 AM

To quote a famous movie:
"Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor? No! It's not over till we say it's over!"

[yes I know it was not the Germans but if you know the movie, you'll understand ;-) ]


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Subject: RE: BS: America has LOST THE WAR
From: catspaw49 - PM
Date: 20 Sep 01 - 10:20 AM

Donuel.....I'm not sure if you are scared, confused, or a complete flake. I'll have to figure it's the former which is certainly natural in this time. You posted the article on the other thread and I think we have two different ways of seeing it. Whatever you are, I'll assume you are not a troll as you have been around awhile and yet also don't respond much after posting controversial threads.
I too worry about the overall direction that is being taken, but at the same time I am heartened that time keeps passing without a massive retaliation. Whatever reservations I may have about Dubya, I also believe that he is "covered" by many intelligent advisors in his cabinet and Congress. I am not so naive as to think that we will do ALL the things I'd like to see and remain free of bloodshed.......it won't happen. I can only hope though that most of what we do will result in diminishing of the NEED the terrorists feel to attack innocents.

I see great hope in the world reaction and the world involvement in this action. I also see that perhaps we will have the sense to come down on our own home-grown terrorists. We are also making noises that we will now and finally get serious about not just rooting out the terrorists, but getting to the root causes of their actions.

What I also believe is that the people of the world and this country have the stamina and the desire to end this type of "warfare." Look to the heartland of this country and you see folks looking for an end to terrorism and not anxious to go into any kind of false war. They are willing to support Bush in his efforts to bring Bin Laden to justice and to stamp out the organization, but they fear for their children and the world they inherit. Hence, they are willing to do whatever it takes to end this. They are also prepared for a long term gain over short term vengeance. It is in this reaction which I see growing across the country, even among the hawks, that I take the most encouragement. Many of these same people were at first ready to blow the hell out of anything in the Middle East, but are now moving over to a more long term stance. Not all.....but many......

BTW, if you DID post this as a troll.........Fuck off, ya' got me. Now go have a Coke and a Smile and Shut the Fuck Up!!!

Spaw


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Subject: RE: BS: America has LOST THE WAR
From: Kim C - PM
Date: 20 Sep 01 - 12:45 PM

what's so funny bout peace love and understanding?
The thing is, and I mentioned this elsewhere, we have to find ways to communicate with people who don't understand things like peace love and understanding. They demand to be heard, but they don't want anyone to listen. It's like they want to scream just to hear themselves scream.

So how DO you teach the pig to sing?

I am glad we have not rushed headlong into military retaliation, and I for one do not want to see Any At All! I don't. BUT I am also aware that force may be necessary if all other options are exhausted. I'm praying for lots of Plan B's.


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Subject: RE: BS: America has LOST THE WAR
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Sep 01 - 01:03 PM

KimC, was that movie Stripes with Harold Ramis and whathisname?

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Subject: RE: BS: America has LOST THE WAR
From: catspaw49 - PM
Date: 20 Sep 01 - 01:07 PM

The movie was "Animal House" with the line being delivered by John Belushi. Spaw

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Subject: RE: BS: America has LOST THE WAR
From: Kim C - PM
Date: 20 Sep 01 - 01:40 PM

Spaw, you get a Golden Fart award for today. ;-)

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Subject: RE: BS: America has LOST THE WAR
From: Little Hawk - PM
Date: 20 Sep 01 - 01:55 PM

There are probably some things that are even more difficult than teaching a pig to sing. Ask Buddha or Jesus or any other enlightened soul about that, and they could tell you some interesting tales...
- LH


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Subject: RE: BS: America has LOST THE WAR
From: GUEST,Shenandoah - PM
Date: 20 Sep 01 - 02:12 PM

Donuel has it pretty dead on, actually.
Some of you might want to stop your jingo dancing for long enough to actually read the 4th Amendment.

And recognize that the agencies which make up the secret US government, known to the citizenry of the US as "the intelligence community" (ie the CIA, National Security Agency, and the FBI) are not a branch of government, nor are they accountable to the citizenry of this country in any way.

The government doesn't need to suspend the Constitution or elections to destroy our democratic freedoms. Judging by people's responses here, most of you don't even know what our constitutionally protected civil rights are. If you think the government is going to protect democratic rights in this country, you are seriously deluded. Seriously deluded.


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Subject: RE: BS: America has LOST THE WAR
From: Donuel - PM
Date: 20 Sep 01 - 02:25 PM

Indeed it is an impudent thing to say and was done after a long day of news monitoring. To be true to myself and honor the serios posts here I will simply add a quote that suggests why I believe we have lost before we begin.

"Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Hate multiplies hate, violence multiplies violence, toughness multiplies toughness in a descending spiral of destruction...
The chain reaction of evil - hate begetting hate, wars producing more wars - must be broken, or we shall be plunged into the darkness... of annihilation."

~ Martin Luther King, Jr.


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Subject: RE: BS: America has LOST THE WAR
From: M.Ted - PM
Date: 20 Sep 01 - 02:26 PM

I have heard that hornpipe before, Shennendoah--that because of the covert actions of the government, we should all be upset because we have no civil rights, and in fact, we never had any. You are both just looking for a rabble to rouse--hopefully it won't happen--

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Subject: RE: BS: America has LOST THE WAR
From: GUEST,Yeah but... - PM
Date: 20 Sep 01 - 02:27 PM

The last time that I checked, the FBI and the CIA have been held accountable for various acts (ever heard of the freedom of information act). As a specific example, please note that the CIA was prohibited from dealing with many of the "unsavory" characters that they had used in the past. There have also been a number of Senate hearings over mismanagement and misconduct by the FBI. Of course, you could argue that these are well orchestrated smoke-screens that hide the hidden agenda by Big Brother to enslave us. If you buy into that, you might be better off hiding out in the woods with the brainiacs who think that the Federal Income Tax is Facism since it is not specifically mentioned in the original constitution.

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Subject: RE: BS: America has LOST THE WAR
From: GUEST,Frank - PM
Date: 20 Sep 01 - 02:30 PM

I think the point is here that we may have lost the Gulf War. (The sins of the father visited on the son?) We ignored the plight of the poor arabs while we were defending oil wells for our own use. The poor arabs became Mujehedeem and joined the fanatical Taliban who now control Afghanistan and have undue influence in Pakhastan.
Now that we see that we just can't ignore the needs of the poor people of the world, or ignore their grievances, we can learn from this lesson and proceed with understanding and compassion.

Also, the knowledge that when poor people are not listened to they can easilly be exploited by reprehensible and opportunistic fanatatics and facists such as bin Laden, Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot, and the callous leaders of the Sudan.

If we learn this lesson, we can win the war over ignorance and unmindful detachment from the poor countries and peoples of the world. We can begin to explain ourselves as a nation through our humanitarian deeds.We are still the recipient of appx. 75% of the world's gross national production.

Frank


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Subject: RE: BS: America has LOST THE WAR
From: Donuel - PM
Date: 20 Sep 01 - 02:32 PM

To help the world get out of this one somewhat intact we will have to use our head ,heart and hands.
Head: An international tribunal to investigate and indict specific terrorists.

Heart: Align ourselves with the mocerate Islmaic cleriks of influence that can bring the message of terrorism as the antithisis to Islam.

Hands: and teeth of the military will be required to enforce the indictments.


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Subject: RE: BS: America has LOST THE WAR
From: DougR - PM
Date: 20 Sep 01 - 02:39 PM

Donuel: I didn't hear the Walter Cronkite quote but if you think the freedom of speech is going to be stifled by the government, I think you are incorrect. There is round-the-clock coverage of events on many of the cable networks, particularly Fox News Network and CNN.
If, and when, there is a military response I'm sure we will hear about it. On the other hand if what you are seeking is full disclosure of military plans prior to any action to be taken, you are going to be sorely disappointed.

This is not a criminal action, it is an act of war, and wartime restrictions on information is going to be the rule.

As someone said before, we are not defeated ...we haven't even started yet.

DougR


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Subject: RE: BS: America has LOST THE WAR
From: Amos - PM
Date: 20 Sep 01 - 03:18 PM

Donuel:
The three point plan you itemize is excellent, in theory, as long as we are willing to consider the use of multi-kiloton explsives and the massascre of 5000 humans who were non-combatants and innocent of known offense as a big crime.

Justice is a process used to channel and remdiate crime.

War is a process used to stop destructive acts by a declared enemy who has by action or formal word revealed a destructive intention toward the state declaring war.

Ben laden, in his fatwah has declared that it is the duty of good Muslims to rise up and kill Americans and take their money, according to the bit posted here recently. In addition he announced a major strike against the United States of "unprecedented force" a few weeks ago, but whe one occurred he insisted it wasn't him!!

Whether it was him directly or not there are good reasons for believing he was involved, based on the known connections of known participants. Subject to later information, of course.

Hopw many or how much crime do you think it takes from one organized group before "war" becomes an appropriate term?

If it is warm your scenario still holds, with one exception. Leave the tribunal out of it and the military force enforces the edicts of the best intelligence we can bring to bear.

A lot of the same people will--one way or another--get rubbed out of their current identities.

The military process will prbably cost less, be faster, and be more of an incentive against similar future recurrence, I think.

Always willing to be wrong.

A.


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Subject: RE: BS: America has LOST THE WAR
From: M.Ted - PM
Date: 20 Sep 01 - 03:28 PM

If we put DougR, Donuel, and Amos, along with X-Ed(if he doesn't return to active status) together in a room, we would probably have the highest rated show on CNBC--all sides presented(sometimes in the same post!) with enough vinnigar to keep it interesting!!

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Subject: RE: BS: America has LOST THE WAR
From: catspaw49 - PM
Date: 20 Sep 01 - 03:30 PM

Whatever the post.....Let me say that I'm glad Donuel is coming back and discussing things here and on other threads. While the topics are controversial and we will all not agree, at least he has stated his positions and proved himself not a troll.
Donuel....Thanks for your posts, no matter if we agree or not.

Spaw


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Subject: RE: BS: Rally round the Trump
From: Donuel
Date: 12 Dec 19 - 06:52 AM

We used to rally round the flag and now events call many to rally round the Trump.   How things have changed! Except for a lack of foresight.
It's a copy/paste of this thread. I don't know if it's worth deleting the 'stuff' in this one, because I don't know if it's everything. -Mod


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Subject: RE: BS: Rally round the Trump
From: Donuel
Date: 12 Dec 19 - 09:50 AM

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Subject: RE: BS: America has LOST THE WAR
From: Troll - PM
Date: 20 Sep 01 - 03:34 PM

Kim, the point is that you teach a pig to sing. And you can't change some people's minds.
Frank, there are poor people in ALL the Arab states, even those who have oil. There is a big gap between the "haves" and the "have-nots" but it is the responsibility of those countries governments to address those issues. If we interfere then we are meddling with the affairs of another nation. And thats wrong.
It was wrong when we did it in Chile, it was wrong in Nicaragua and El Salvador AND IT'S WRONG HERE TOO>.
Afghanistan has no oil. The Mujahadeen are for the most part, Afghan tribesmen. bin Laden brought in what he called "Afghan Arabs" to help fight the Russians. These were not poor men but men who already had some experience in warfare and/or terrorism.
When the Russians left,the country erupted into civil war with one group of Mujahadeen fighting another. The Tailban -mostly Pashtuns from the south- came out on top.
The rest of the country is in ruins and the tribes who lost out now skulk and starve in the mountains or, in the north, conduct guerrilla warfare.
A couple of months ago, the US sent $42 million in aid -mostly food and medicines- to Afghanistan but it is unlikely that the aid ever reached anyone but Talliban supporters.
I am not sure which poor people we are ignoring, but their own governments can't deny them the aid we send and then blame us.
Unless you want us to be the cops of the world.
BTW, yes, we are the reciepient of 75% of the worlds GNP. We make most of it.
troll


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Subject: RE: BS: America has LOST THE WAR
From: kendall - PM
Date: 20 Sep 01 - 03:39 PM

Yeah, what spaw said.

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Subject: RE: BS: America has LOST THE WAR
From: Troll - PM
Date: 20 Sep 01 - 03:49 PM

Sorry. The Talliban are Pathans. The language they speak is Pashtun or Pushtu.
I am covered with rue.
troll


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Subject: RE: BS: America has LOST THE WAR
From: Donuel - PM
Date: 20 Sep 01 - 03:53 PM

I tried posting on Maestronet, like frog in a small pond, but members are mostly interested in dicussing the psalm Bush mentioned or yelling that we the cowardly public have no need to know and should therefor be silent.
This forum has such a multitude of intelligent people I am but an ameoba in a large lake.


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Subject: RE: BS: America has LOST THE WAR
From: Sourdough - PM
Date: 20 Sep 01 - 03:55 PM

Donuel;
One of the things that I think gets overlooked by not just yourself but most other people in a discussion such as this one is that somewhere there are people, cabinet officers, legislators, national security advisors, economists, CEO's, security people and the like who have to make decisions about what to do - right now. They have to protect lives and property in an immediate sense.

Of course, I agree that we must think clearly and act decisively to change the context that produces terrorists and the people who are willing to shelter them, however there are some people whom we expect to make decisions about what to do this afternoon, tomorrow and next week to protect us and our families. Unfortunately this kind of pressure in an emergency has led to major injustices, especially the rounding up of Japanese on the West Coast and Axis nationals on the East Coast following the US entry into WW II. However, our system was such their injustices were finally recognized and their tribulations apologized for. The bravery of their sons became appreciated to the extent that in the 1960 there was a feature film about the Japanes-Americans fighting who unit in the US Army was one of the most decorated in the entire war. An open society recognized and apologized for one of its mistakes. The injustice now stands as an example of the significance of suspending civil rights.

If you are ever in a position where you have to make a decision that will immediately affect the safety and the confidence of hundreds, to say nothing of hundreds of millions, of lives, you may find that you, too, have a tendency to over react. The purpose of a Consitution is to bring things back into balance once a crisis has been normalised. Whether or not we are able to do that in this case will be the test of whether we have won or lost.

Sourdough


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Subject: RE: BS: America has LOST THE WAR
From: Donuel - PM
Date: 20 Sep 01 - 03:55 PM

Syrian rue?

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Subject: RE: BS: America has LOST THE WAR
From: catspaw49 - PM
Date: 20 Sep 01 - 03:57 PM

Well, we're a pretty much all a bunch of amoebas here......sadly we got some pond scum too.
Spaw


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Subject: RE: BS: America has LOST THE WAR
From: GUEST,Yeah but... - PM
Date: 20 Sep 01 - 04:03 PM

Sourdough,
The problem with people like you is that you tend to rain on the parade by actually making cogent comments that represent a blending of education and good common sense. You go girl....


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Subject: RE: BS: America has LOST THE WAR
From: Troll - PM
Date: 20 Sep 01 - 04:03 PM

Kin I be a rotifer 'Spaw? Huh? Kin I? Huh?
troll


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Subject: RE: BS: America has LOST THE WAR
From: Amos - PM
Date: 20 Sep 01 - 04:12 PM

Guest Yabbit:
The trouble with people like you is they say nice things say nice things say nice things say nice things say nice things say nice things say nice things.

A


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Subject: RE: BS: America has LOST THE WAR
From: Donuel - PM
Date: 20 Sep 01 - 04:16 PM

Sourdough, you have fractured the suspension of belief that some of us are in charge:-) With a selected head of state ,trust in a democratic process in times of declared war against John Doe is threatened, no matter how high Shrub's ratings are now.
If we were together on Politically Incorrect I would get the cat calls and cheers and you would get the polite but enthusiastic applause.


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Subject: RE: BS: America has LOST THE WAR
From: GUEST,Yeah but... - PM
Date: 20 Sep 01 - 04:20 PM

Could somebody interpret Donuel's last message. My Ph.D. isn't serving me too well in this instance.
And Amos, sorry about the repeated message. My bad, bad, bad, bad, bad.....


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Subject: RE: BS: America has LOST THE WAR
From: Skeptic - PM
Date: 20 Sep 01 - 04:23 PM

troll,
I think how we interfere may have something to do with it. After all, we are interfering in Israel, Turkey, Saudi Arabia to mention a few

Do you propose isolationism of some sort as a solution?

Perhaps we need to look at how we meddle and interfere, and why we are publically proclaiming support for democratic government, civil liberties and so on but acting in against those ends. Wonder what the Kuwaiti (and others) think about the us coming in , kicking out the Iraqis and then restoring a monarchy that traditionally has been less than supportive of democracy in their own country?

It isn't rue you are covered in.

That's for the whale comment made elsewhere. Why worry about thread creep when we can go at it across multiple sites, after all.

Regards

John


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Subject: RE: BS: America has LOST THE WAR
From: Margo - PM
Date: 20 Sep 01 - 04:32 PM

No we haven't.

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Subject: RE: BS: America has LOST THE WAR
From: Deda - PM
Date: 20 Sep 01 - 05:31 PM

The people who have lost the war are those whose husbands, wives, children, siblings, best friends died for no reason on 9/11. The next round of people to lose the war will be the mothers, fathers, husbands, wives, and children of the combatants who die -- or of the victims of the next senseless attack.
My son is 22 -- just the right age for cannon fodder, historically. I pray for his safety every day of my life. I have tremendous faith, but it does seem that extremist fundamentalism of ANY stripe just creates and then justifies chaos and death and hatred.


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Subject: RE: BS: America has LOST THE WAR
From: Kim C - PM
Date: 20 Sep 01 - 05:44 PM

Fourth Amendment? That's unreasonable search and seizure, right? the right of the people to be secure in their persons and houses and papers and all that, and no troops being quartered in peacetime? Ain't that the one?
Y'know the DEA got in some big trouble over that awhile back.

well, I have posted to so many threads the last 10 days they are all running together now and my head hurts. Before I go to my pig-singing lesson I better find an aspiring or something.


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Subject: RE: BS: America has LOST THE WAR
From: Kim C - PM
Date: 20 Sep 01 - 05:45 PM

...aspiRIN... (see what I mean?)

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Subject: RE: BS: America has LOST THE WAR
From: Donuel - PM
Date: 20 Sep 01 - 05:55 PM

July-6-2002
Sorry I haven't posted in awhile , on our way to the 4th of July fireworks I was detained for 48 hours at the security checkpoint for not having my national identity card. I'm still a little sore from the "reasonable" search and seizure.

Should the war continue another 12 years my 6 year old son will surely be drafted.


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Subject: RE: BS: America has LOST THE WAR
From: GUEST,Yeah but... - PM
Date: 20 Sep 01 - 06:04 PM

Sounds a little vague, but in the event that you were actually mistreated, it should not be taken as a sign of general decline of rights. If you compare the present (even factoring in the possibility of some abuses by panicky officers) to the past you will see that there has been a steady decrease in the ability of police and others to abuse their power.

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Subject: RE: BS: America has LOST THE WAR
From: GUEST,Joe - PM
Date: 21 Sep 01 - 06:41 AM

Hello Donuel I think the Media Should not be given full access to coverage of the war look back at what happened to the seal team who landed on the beach and where swarmed by reporters.I for one would not want the media letting our enemy know what the hell were doing remember the old saying from WW2 lose lips sink ships.Donuel also the fourth Admendment can be over ridden by a thing called probable cause. I would like to also ask a question have you ever faced a bully when you were in school? Deda those people have not lost a war they have lost the ones they love to lose the war they would have to give up completely and not go on with their lives.Your right about your son but they have proven they can harm him whether he is over there fighting against them or back here enjoying the day not bothering anyone. Amos Bin Laden is without a doubt responsible for the embassy bombings in Kenya and Tanzania and since he has already struck there why shouldn't we arrest him anyway for those crimes. Before I leave for the night I would like to end this with a little story. There was a captain of a fighting ship. He was fully engaged with an enemy vessel, the cannons were roaring, men were screaming the fight was intense. The captain of the enemy vessel seen he was getting the better of are hero and shouted to him"good sir do you wish to surrender" are hero's reply was "I have not yet begun to fight" That man and hero of the story was John Paul Jones and he went on to win that day.

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Subject: RE: BS: America has LOST THE WAR
From: GeorgeH - PM
Date: 21 Sep 01 - 07:10 AM

To my mind a lot of the replies here indicate just how close to the truth Donnel is . .
As for the person who said "The only way we can lose the war against terrorism is by betraying our own principles of decency, fairness and justice.", well, that really hands it to Donnel, Game, Set and Match. Even within its own land, the US's principles of "Decency, fairness and justice" are often pretty hard to discern. In its international policies and actions they're often invisible.

Oh, and Terrorism isn't an entity on which you can make war, its a strategy. Which (amongst its other deployments) will always be used by those who have no other way to redress what they perceive as wrongs.

Finally, will the US start its global and all-inclusive war against terrorism by a categoric and irrevocable undertaking that it will never again give overt or covert support to any terrorist organisation?

In the State Sponsorship of Terrorism league the US comes pretty high - which says a lot about its committment to "decency, fairness and justice".

I guess I ought to stay out of here before I cause too much more upset. The extent to which people's hearts have run away with their heads is both frightening and deeply depressing . .

G.


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Subject: RE: BS: America has LOST THE WAR
From: GUEST,Yeah but... - PM
Date: 21 Sep 01 - 07:52 AM

George H.
The reason that big D (and you) is difficult to take seriously is the overall lack of an objective reading of American history. The fundamental fact is that our various freedoms have been strengthened thru time. Consider the following.

1.It is argued that freedom of the press is infringed. How does this compare to T. Roosevelt who could get away with literally blackballing members of the press who disagreed with his policies.

2.What about the freedom to protest/strike? Is it infringed like seventy years ago when the military and police often served as mercenaries and shot down dozens of striking workers for mining companies and factories. On a similar note, ever heard of what happened to the World War One Veteran's bonus march on Washington D.C. in the 1920s.

3.Our protection against various abuses by law enforcement is greatly improved. Do you really think that things are nearly as bad now as during the J. Edgar Hoover reign in the FBI.

All of these areas have shown improvement even since the Reagan administration. Of course, there is always room for improvement, and tempered skepticism toward the government is great in a Demoracacy. However, shrill and unsubstantiated cries of "The sky is falling" aren't.


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Subject: RE: BS: America has LOST THE WAR
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Sep 01 - 08:03 AM

IN A DEEP, LOW VOICE
"The Sky is sagging, the Sky is sagging".

Regards

John


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Subject: RE: BS: America has LOST THE WAR
From: GUEST,Yeah but... - PM
Date: 21 Sep 01 - 08:26 AM

Good boy John, its nice to see caution rather than hysteria. As Don Rickles would say, "You get a cookie."

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Subject: RE: BS: America has LOST THE WAR
From: GUEST,Butch, at work - PM
Date: 21 Sep 01 - 09:33 AM

Donuel, before making yourself look like a blind, unthinking person, try reading some American history. We have not lost, we have not yet fought this one. By your definition, we lost WWII on DEc. 20th, 1941! I am sure there are a few vets out there (not to mention scholors) who would challange you on your fine conclusion!

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Subject: RE: BS: America has LOST THE WAR
From: Donuel - PM
Date: 21 Sep 01 - 09:36 AM

Butch, . To be true to myself and honor the vets and serious posts here I will simply add a quote that suggests why I believe we have lost before we begin.
"Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Hate multiplies hate, violence multiplies violence, toughness multiplies toughness in a descending spiral of destruction...

The chain reaction of evil - hate begetting hate, wars producing more wars - must be broken, or we shall be plunged into the darkness... of annihilation."

~ Martin Luther King, Jr.


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Subject: RE: BS: America has LOST THE WAR
From: GUEST,yeah but... - PM
Date: 21 Sep 01 - 09:45 AM

Invoking the King is a good literary touch, but producing some actual facts to support the stuff that you have been spouting would get a lot of people off your back.

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Subject: RE: BS: America has LOST THE WAR
From: Troll - PM
Date: 21 Sep 01 - 10:09 AM

Does anyone have a coherent idea of just how the US should handle this crisis? And If I hear "JustLOVE them and try to understand them " or a variant thereof one more time, I'm gonna puke.
troll


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Subject: RE: BS: America has LOST THE WAR
From: M.Ted - PM
Date: 21 Sep 01 - 10:11 AM

Donuel,
Are you, as BillD indicated, in the DC area? Am curious to know a bit more about what happened to you on the 4th of July--PM me if you want--


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Subject: RE: BS: America has LOST THE WAR
From: Donuel - PM
Date: 21 Sep 01 - 10:17 AM

Once the first reports of killed Muslims at the hands of American forces are broadcast world wide it will be too late to create any lasting icon of a peaceful political solution.

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Subject: RE: BS: America has LOST THE WAR
From: Donuel - PM
Date: 21 Sep 01 - 10:37 AM

MTed the 4th of July post was a satire of a fictitious incident that occurred 7-4-NEXT YEAR.
Regarding the reality of today: For my wife to get to work she has to allow for an extra 40 minutes per day since they search everyone on the buses she takes to work.


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Subject: RE: BS: America has LOST THE WAR
From: Donuel - PM
Date: 21 Sep 01 - 11:13 AM

Date: 20-Sep-01 - 04:16 PM
Sourdough, you have fractured the suspension of belief that some of us are in charge:-) With a selected head of state ,trust in a democratic process in times of declared war against John Doe is threatened, no matter how high Shrub's ratings are now.

If we were together on Politically Incorrect I would get the cat calls and cheers and you would get the polite but enthusiastic applause.

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Subject: RE: BS: America has LOST THE WAR From: GUEST,Yeah but... Date: 20-Sep-01 - 04:20 PM

Could somebody interpret Donuel's last message. My Ph.D. isn't serving me too well in this instance.

OK , Some people here become so embroiled in their interpretations of what our foreign policies should be, they invest in a belief that their opinions may make a difference (as if they are in charge or elections are fair). Sourdough may have brought some of these people down to earth with moderate comments. President Bush is the legitimate President however there is a fear that the democratic process has been dealt a blow. The selection by the Supream Court of Bush may come back to haunt him later after our declared war against all terrorists "in general" is proven to be a tough process with many domestic perils. Despite his current high approval ratings they could drop like a stone similar to his Dads.

My opinions can be inflamatory in title and controversial in satire and may enrage or delight. A moderate approach to common sense will get much more polite applause in comparison.-end of translation for the PHD challenged.


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Subject: RE: BS: America has LOST THE WAR
From: M.Ted - PM
Date: 21 Sep 01 - 02:28 PM

Somehow, Donuel, I don't think that they appreciate your Ionesco-like sense of humor.
At any rate, at the rate of 40 minutes a day, your wife will have been detained for more than 48 hours by the next fourth of July, and I am sure that they check ID's on the bus, as well. A few nights back, we drove down Georgia Av., only to encounter a police barricade--nearly twenty police officers, carefully examining each car--not to worry, it was only a "sobriety check"--


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Subject: RE: BS: America has LOST THE WAR
From: GUEST,Yeah but... - PM
Date: 21 Sep 01 - 02:32 PM

Donuel,
Thanks for rendering it into English. Now that we understand your opinion, care to dazzle us with some facts.....


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Subject: RE: BS: America has LOST THE WAR
From: Lonesome EJ - PM
Date: 21 Sep 01 - 03:18 PM

We have lost the war. Japanese planes have pulverized our Pacific Fleet. The USS Arizona stands as a lasting monument to our negligence and our defeat. The President has called for War, creating a martial law footing which will rob us of our tradition of freedom. We have no alternative but to surrender our country and hope for mercy.
Donuel, 1941


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Subject: RE: BS: America has LOST THE WAR
From: Paul from Hull - PM
Date: 21 Sep 01 - 03:25 PM

Troll,
My opinion, for what its worth, is that:

A/ We continue 'harassing' the Taliban to hand him over... while at the same time continuing to encourage them (through diplomatic means) to continue to 'suggest' to him that he leaves. A re-iteration & clarification of the statement that NO terrorism, ANYWHERE will be tolerated needs to be made again, & again.

B/ We drop food, etc, to the Refugee Camps inside Pakistan. That might go a long way towards keeping the Pakistani Government on our side, despite pressure from sections of their own Population. Hopefully it will also draw more people out of Afghanistan anyway.

C/ Do NOTHING Militarily until we can increase support BY doing nothing.... let more & more Nations fall into line behind us, encouraged by the fact that we are exercising restraint. (I DON'T consider that we can claim that we have, just yet, simply because we havent struck in the past week). That will allow us to build up more & more HUMINT, & other forms, as more & more is processed... doubtless we cant have already discovered all that there is to discover even regarding the events of 11/9. Anyway, its seldom possible to have ENOUGH information about ones enemy.

D/ Bin Ladens assets may have already been frozen since '98, but doubtless there are others in the 'Terrorist community' who might continue to support him, who's assets HAVENT been seized/frozen yet... we need to get Financial Institutions to do just that.

E/ Actively RECRUIT Arabs/Muslims as Translators/Linguists, even Covert Operatives. (An ENORMOUS task, I know.... they would all have to be subjected to the most stringent Security checks, & so on). Naturally, that involves continuing to ensure that those in our own countries are not harrassed, attacked, or intimidated.

F/ Work with the Authorities in 'Palestine'. The Israeli's, to my mind, made a very bold & laudable step in pulling back from the territiories so recently moved into.

G/ Work with ANYONE who will listen, to root out terrorism & potential terrorism wherever, but DO NOT repeat the errors made in setting Bin Laden up to resist the Soviets. Gaddafi, despite the past, has, for a few years now, its reported, has been HOLDING BACK the rise of Islamic Fundamentalism in North Africa.

H/ Keep re-iterating that TERRORISM is the enemy, & NOT those who have made a tool of it in the past. We must not let any of this be perceived as purely against islam, even Islamic Fundamentalism.

Maybe with all this done, & or ongoing, we CAN consign the word terrorism to the history books.


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Subject: RE: BS: America has LOST THE WAR
From: Paul from Hull - PM
Date: 21 Sep 01 - 03:29 PM

Ooops, forgot to say that that's is just my own, half-arsed personal opinion, of course..I'm just a nobody!

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Subject: RE: BS: America has LOST THE WAR
From: Donuel - PM
Date: 21 Sep 01 - 03:32 PM

Entry by bus into Federal installations does in fact involve searches - not sobriety searches. If you have not heard of the proposed National Identity Card you soon will.
Some believe the only worthy facts in the conflict involve posting the ravings of terrorists. Others produce no facts at all and smugly snipe the conversation of others. Perhaps they believe they will be merely inconvienienced by the war. They are not expecting to die in the stench of their own small pox pustuels. Escalation to bio war is still unthinkable to some today as last weeks events were back in August.

Calm , cautious , discriminate thinking is not the sole domain of war zealots. In fact I think it is sorely lacking in the war zealot mind set represented here.

I have delineated a well organized response to global terrorism in other threads. You have read them , perhaps you pay little attenion to the attribution of various posts.


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Subject: RE: BS: Rally round the Trump
From: Donuel
Date: 12 Dec 19 - 09:54 AM

The calibre of the contributors is noticably very high and at length compared to today, don't you think?


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Subject: RE: BS: Rally round the Trump
From: Donuel
Date: 12 Dec 19 - 10:30 AM

The introduction got cut off;


20 years ago members here were dealing with 9-11 and our way forward

In the spitit of Keb it is fascinating to see who has changed, who is here and who is departed.

Most of the remarks are very fortelling of what has happened to democracy.


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Subject: RE: BS: Rally round the Trump
From: Raggytash
Date: 12 Dec 19 - 10:43 AM

Donuel, what the hell are you on about? You smoking "funny" cigarettes by any chance?


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Subject: RE: BS: Rally round the Trump
From: Mrrzy
Date: 12 Dec 19 - 11:12 AM

I was wondering that too...


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Subject: RE: BS: Rally round the Trump
From: meself
Date: 12 Dec 19 - 12:55 PM

Can someone give me a two-sentence summary? Thanks!


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Subject: RE: BS: Rally round the Trump
From: Mossback
Date: 12 Dec 19 - 01:06 PM

Move along, folks- nothing to see here.


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Subject: RE: BS: Rally round the Trump
From: Joe Offer
Date: 12 Dec 19 - 01:50 PM

Maybe you could learn how to make links, Don. Maybe if you posted what you want to say and a link, people would actually read it. But as it is, this huge copy-paste of over 70 messages is a waste of Mudcat's space and our time.
So, what was the point you were trying to make? That impeachment is unpatriotic and will result in another terrorist attack? That Trump is our strongman savior and this impeachment will weaken him and make us vulnerable? I can think of a dozen things the little old ladies at church are saying to protest that horrible Pelosi and her treasonous impeachment?
But what are YOU saying?
Donuel: Wheee! I can't actually think a clear thought myself, but I'm really good at copy-pasting...


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Subject: RE: BS: Rally round the Trump
From: EBarnacle
Date: 12 Dec 19 - 01:55 PM

One fundamental issue that barely got touched on in the above cut and past thread, was that most of the blame for terrorist actions got reassigned to national governments.
By attacking Afghanistan and Iraq we a] got involved in family fights, b] destabilized an entire region of the world and c] gave legitimacy to non-state actors.
Any police officer will tell you that family fights are the most dangerous calls they routinely get.
Qadaffi was never a good guy but he was a stabilizing influence in the Muslim world.
I refer you to Aesop's fable of Hercules and the Hydra.
PS, the various security agencies are a part of the Executive Branch of our government, which is why Congress is entitled to exercise oversight on them.


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Subject: RE: BS: Rally round the Trump
From: robomatic
Date: 12 Dec 19 - 02:31 PM

mebbe it's a plea for help instead of the usual screed for attention.

Or one of those internet services that gets retained in case of death or rapture. Puts out a message to all designated sites that the user has 'moved on'. I have one in case I vote Republican, but mine involves the use of trained snipers and a couple of heavy cream spray cans.

Anyone got the keys to Don'ls apartment?


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Subject: RE: BS: Rally round the Trump
From: Donuel
Date: 12 Dec 19 - 03:51 PM

A TWENTY YEAR OLD THREAD ? - whats going on here? Its a fair question, especially when the preamble was cut off. Keboroxu isn't alone to marvel at the past.

Back then we were all coming to grips with an act of war.
(Links are prevented due to a tech problems but that is fortunate for those who enjoy reading.) People demanded a response to war yet some predicted what would happen depending upon the path America would choose. I am struck by the flexibility of responders and that I had more rapport with peers. I was not trying to display I told you so because I was clearly not entirely right. Nor was I wrong that America would go down a rabbit hole that would change her forever.
If you do not see the relevancy then consider I may only be talking to the ghosts of Christmas past.


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Subject: RE: BS: Rally round the Trump
From: Donuel
Date: 12 Dec 19 - 04:50 PM

Barnacle (like the journalist) can see
Joe is what he appears to be
and robomatic is of course unchanged.
I trace closed threads forever chained.


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Subject: RE: BS: Rally round the Trump
From: gillymor
Date: 12 Dec 19 - 04:53 PM

I'm going along with the wacky baccy theory on this one.


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Subject: RE: BS: Rally round the Trump
From: Donuel
Date: 12 Dec 19 - 05:00 PM

You holdin?


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Subject: RE: BS: Rally round the Trump
From: gillymor
Date: 12 Dec 19 - 05:04 PM

Holdin' a MM card.


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Subject: RE: BS: Rally round the Trump
From: Joe Offer
Date: 12 Dec 19 - 05:18 PM

Donuel: Joe is what he appears to be

Yup, after twenty years, I'm still puzzled about what the %^#$ Donuel is talking about most of the time.

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: BS: Rally round the Trump
From: Donuel
Date: 12 Dec 19 - 05:48 PM

Here is a 4 dimensional stick Joe, you want to hit me some more?

Oh yeah thats right, you are 1 dimensional and can't even see the stick. Relax, never the twain shall meet. At least I hope not.


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Subject: RE: BS: Rally round the Trump
From: Joe Offer
Date: 12 Dec 19 - 07:11 PM

Well, no, Donuel. But I still don't understand what the point of this thread is.


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Subject: RE: BS: Rally round the Trump
From: Donuel
Date: 12 Dec 19 - 07:51 PM

It felt inspired, full of great characters and people I wish I knew better as well as historic at the time.

It seems old acquaintance is forgot.

Someone should tell keb you can't step into the same river current twice.


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Subject: RE: BS: Rally round the Trump
From: Joe Offer
Date: 12 Dec 19 - 08:53 PM

Still no answer?
Does he have a pulse?
He's dead, Jim....


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Subject: RE: BS: Rally round the Trump
From: robomatic
Date: 12 Dec 19 - 09:14 PM

Don'l you are a one of a kind and no one can take your place!


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Subject: RE: BS: Rally round the Trump
From: EBarnacle
Date: 12 Dec 19 - 10:46 PM

C'mon, guys. Stop with ad homs and argue like adults.
And always remember: If you break it, you bought it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Rally round the Trump
From: Joe Offer
Date: 13 Dec 19 - 02:40 AM

I'd like to EBarnacle, but I still can't figure out what this thread is about. I'm not trying to attack Donuel, but I really want to know what this is about. I can't make any sense of it, and Donuel thinks I'm picking on him and won't tell me.
-Joe-


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Subject: RE: BS: Rally round the Trump
From: Mr Red
Date: 13 Dec 19 - 03:54 AM

Qadaffi was never a good guy but he was a stabilizing influence in the Muslim world.

Hmmmm...... he was threatening to harbour Al Qaeda.



Joe, maybe this thread is about spiders or Iraqnophobia


OK, OK, I am on my way


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Subject: RE: BS: Rally round the Trump
From: Joe Offer
Date: 13 Dec 19 - 04:55 AM

I think that Qadaffi and Saddam Hussein and Hasni Mubarek were all stabilizing influences in the Muslim world (not that they were nice people), as were the Assads in Syria and the Husseins in Jordan. We messed in places we didn't understand, and we will pay the price for generations.
-Joe-


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Subject: RE: BS: Rally round the Trump
From: Donuel
Date: 13 Dec 19 - 06:13 AM

Thats about right. US Policy has been cast about almost randomly out of ignorance from Bush through Trump. We can't draw straight lines due to the complexities, but here we are ruled by tweet and deferring to Russia on just about everything. By appealing to concealed hatreds even the religious right is willing to rally 'round Trump for a solid right wing Supream Court.


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Subject: RE: BS: Rally round the Trump
From: Donuel
Date: 13 Dec 19 - 07:28 AM

The political right have always wished for an executive with unlimited powers. They now have it to the extent the President is untouchable and virtually independant from the Constitution.

There are good things on the horizon in the House but Moscow Mitch has vowed to bury them. Mitch from Kentucky would have to stop a pentagon Bill and even shut down the Gov on Xmas eve so I do not know what will happen. Drug pricing and birth leave are easy issues for Mitch to ignore.


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Subject: RE: BS: Rally round the Trump
From: EBarnacle
Date: 13 Dec 19 - 09:02 PM

Both Agent Orange and Moscow Mitch are really just Grinches pretending to be human.


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Subject: RE: BS: Rally round the Trump
From: robomatic
Date: 13 Dec 19 - 10:13 PM

Most of what is comprehensible in this thread is okay but when dehumanizing the opposition one falls into the same trap as the opposition itself (think 'satan worshipping baby eaters') and is just a bit closer to endorsing that flow of blood we all fear.

We got Obama through two terms alive. I'd like to think we can all get through shudder with the current &6%$(* creeps at least maintaining some sort of heartbeats.

In the world of Putin, Ong, Erdogan, Xi, Duterte, Orban, Modi, democracy is imperilled far worse than in the US and UK.

It helps to keep a sense of proportion along with a sense of smell.


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Subject: RE: BS: Rally round the Trump
From: Iains
Date: 14 Dec 19 - 05:37 AM

It will e interesting to see how it all pans out in the courts when all this political chicanery finally has to justify it's actions before a judge and jury.
Claim and counter claim. May the winner be veracity.
It could surprise a few!


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Subject: RE: BS: Rally round the Trump
From: Donuel
Date: 15 Dec 19 - 11:08 AM

Shock insult politicians like Trump are imitated by other authoritarians. Suppose we lower ourselves to fight fire with fire?

Political feuds/roasts did have rules:

No child jokes but Trump recently broke this rule.
Jousts snubs and insults may include;
Age
Sex
Wife
Car
Hobbies
Drinking
intelligence
Eating too much
Archaic politics
mental stability
the faded jock
self destructive
narcisistic
delusional
man child
stagnant social climber
and
Mother in law

Perhaps 'he who does not want to be named' doesn't know how to play well when the jokes are on him. Its pretty simple to play.
Start with a fact then go for your opponent, such as...

"Light travels faster than sound. This is why (name) appears bright until you hear him speak."


It seems Democratic politicians today can't play this stupid but effective game.


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Subject: RE: BS: Rally round the Trump
From: Donuel
Date: 15 Dec 19 - 11:17 AM

robo calls this a trap but if well done, it can be a trap door for 'the fat one' to fall through.


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Subject: RE: BS: Rally round the Trump
From: Iains
Date: 15 Dec 19 - 11:19 AM

It seems Democratic politicians today can't play this stupid but effective game
Perhaps too busy looking over their shoulders? Are the stories rumour or fact?
Will Russian collusion hold up? If not, what then?


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Subject: RE: BS: Rally round the Trump
From: Donuel
Date: 15 Dec 19 - 12:46 PM

will your collusion hold up, if not -what will you do for laughs


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Subject: RE: BS: Rally round the Trump
From: Iains
Date: 15 Dec 19 - 12:55 PM

No need for me to collude.
For laughs I can watch the antics of the insufferable cabal on the UK election threads.
The right has been proved to be absolutely right.


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