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BS: US Diplomatic Immunity in UK

Backwoodsman 25 Oct 19 - 01:44 AM
Stilly River Sage 24 Oct 19 - 06:22 PM
Backwoodsman 17 Oct 19 - 09:27 PM
Donuel 17 Oct 19 - 09:14 PM
Backwoodsman 17 Oct 19 - 07:56 AM
Backwoodsman 17 Oct 19 - 07:55 AM
Donuel 17 Oct 19 - 07:31 AM
Rain Dog 17 Oct 19 - 07:28 AM
Iains 17 Oct 19 - 06:55 AM
gillymor 17 Oct 19 - 06:03 AM
Mossback 16 Oct 19 - 02:17 PM
Mrrzy 16 Oct 19 - 01:25 PM
Backwoodsman 15 Oct 19 - 06:08 AM
Iains 15 Oct 19 - 05:53 AM
Mrrzy 15 Oct 19 - 05:16 AM
Backwoodsman 15 Oct 19 - 03:54 AM
Mrrzy 15 Oct 19 - 03:48 AM
Backwoodsman 14 Oct 19 - 06:12 PM
Mrrzy 14 Oct 19 - 04:55 PM
Backwoodsman 14 Oct 19 - 11:30 AM
Mrrzy 14 Oct 19 - 10:37 AM
Mr Red 14 Oct 19 - 04:04 AM
Jim Carroll 13 Oct 19 - 01:20 PM
Mrrzy 13 Oct 19 - 10:17 AM
Mrrzy 13 Oct 19 - 10:01 AM
Backwoodsman 12 Oct 19 - 12:20 PM
Mrrzy 12 Oct 19 - 11:12 AM
Dave Hanson 12 Oct 19 - 08:34 AM
Dave Hanson 12 Oct 19 - 08:29 AM
Monique 12 Oct 19 - 04:05 AM
Iains 12 Oct 19 - 03:43 AM
Gurney 12 Oct 19 - 01:09 AM
Backwoodsman 11 Oct 19 - 03:45 PM
Backwoodsman 11 Oct 19 - 03:36 PM
Iains 11 Oct 19 - 03:35 PM
Iains 11 Oct 19 - 03:21 PM
Backwoodsman 11 Oct 19 - 01:23 PM
Mrrzy 11 Oct 19 - 11:43 AM
Iains 11 Oct 19 - 11:02 AM
Backwoodsman 11 Oct 19 - 01:49 AM
Mrrzy 10 Oct 19 - 11:32 PM
Backwoodsman 10 Oct 19 - 11:00 AM
gillymor 10 Oct 19 - 10:36 AM
Rob Naylor 10 Oct 19 - 09:38 AM
Mossback 10 Oct 19 - 09:17 AM
gillymor 10 Oct 19 - 07:02 AM
Iains 10 Oct 19 - 06:53 AM
Steve Shaw 10 Oct 19 - 06:52 AM
Steve Shaw 10 Oct 19 - 06:50 AM
Steve Shaw 10 Oct 19 - 06:44 AM
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Subject: RE: BS: US Diplomatic Immunity in UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 25 Oct 19 - 01:44 AM

”It's so absurd that this happened in the way it did - yet another reason why the idiot in the White House needs to be removed ASAP”

Completely agree, along with the idiot in 10, Downing Street, SRS.


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Subject: RE: BS: US Diplomatic Immunity in UK
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 24 Oct 19 - 06:22 PM

I haven't followed this story but just came across the Daily Beast link on a friend's page. It's so absurd that this happened in the way it did - yet another reason why the idiot in the White House needs to be removed ASAP. Who on earth thought that ambush was a good idea?


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Subject: RE: BS: US Diplomatic Immunity in UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 17 Oct 19 - 09:27 PM

If the woman had remained in the UK and faced the consequences of her actions, it’s highly unlikely she would have been charged with murder or manslaughter. She would possibly have been subject to the lesser charge of ‘Causing Death by Dangerous Driving’.

But, as it seems not to be politically expedient so far as your President and our Prime Minister are concerned, it seems unlikely we will ever know.


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Subject: RE: BS: US Diplomatic Immunity in UK
From: Donuel
Date: 17 Oct 19 - 09:14 PM

We should rethink diplomatic immunity. I works well in cases of cultural confusion or misunderstanding but in cases of murder or manslaughter I feel there is a universality of understanding the need for respondsibility.


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Subject: RE: BS: US Diplomatic Immunity in UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 17 Oct 19 - 07:56 AM

Money, money money
Must be funny
In a rich man’s world....

© B. Ulvæus/B. Andersson


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Subject: RE: BS: US Diplomatic Immunity in UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 17 Oct 19 - 07:55 AM

Money, money money
Must be funny
In a rich man’s world....

<©> B. Ulvæus/B. Andersson


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Subject: RE: BS: US Diplomatic Immunity in UK
From: Donuel
Date: 17 Oct 19 - 07:31 AM

Today Congress will have a vote to overturn
a Trump order to reverse Obama's clean air and water regs.
Another crack in the dam for the vile Frump administration.


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Subject: RE: BS: US Diplomatic Immunity in UK
From: Rain Dog
Date: 17 Oct 19 - 07:28 AM

Don't you mean if Trump is to believed?


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Subject: RE: BS: US Diplomatic Immunity in UK
From: Iains
Date: 17 Oct 19 - 06:55 AM

All done at the instigation of Boris, If the media are to be believed!


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Subject: RE: BS: US Diplomatic Immunity in UK
From: gillymor
Date: 17 Oct 19 - 06:03 AM

Of all the shabby things the dickwad has done that attempt at a Reality TV Show moment with those grief-stricken parents ranks up there with the shabbiest.


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Subject: RE: BS: US Diplomatic Immunity in UK
From: Mossback
Date: 16 Oct 19 - 02:17 PM

Yep, just goes to show what an absolute piece of shit Trump is.

Not content with perverting the course of justice by sequestering the perpetrator, he now attempts to use this tragedy to produce a photo-op/campaign rally spot.

Impeachment can't come too soon - get this goddamn son of a bitch NOW.


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Subject: RE: BS: US Diplomatic Immunity in UK
From: Mrrzy
Date: 16 Oct 19 - 01:25 PM

Did you hear that the parents are in the US and got invited/summoned to the white house, where unbeknownst to them the driver was already there? Crass doesn't begin to cover it.

https://www.thedailybeast.com/anne-sacoolas-grieving-parents-ambushed-by-trump-who-was-hiding-spy-wife-at-the-white-house?ref=scroll


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Subject: RE: BS: US Diplomatic Immunity in UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 15 Oct 19 - 06:08 AM

”Trumped-up charges aahahahaha sorry.”

And I apologise for the weak pun - it seemed funny at the time! ;-)


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Subject: RE: BS: US Diplomatic Immunity in UK
From: Iains
Date: 15 Oct 19 - 05:53 AM

Interesting piece in the guardian some days ago:
Mark Stephens, an acknowledged legal expert on diplomatic immunity law, challenged whether Jonathan Sacoolas enjoyed full immunity under the Vienna convention, saying he had not been registered as such with the Foreign Office.

He suggested Sacoolas and his dependents instead only had more limited immunity under the Visiting Forces Act, and its derivative bilateral orders that provide immunity to personnel on specific UK bases. That immunity, according to Crown Prosecution Service guidance, is restricted to specific offences that “arose out of and in the course of the service person’s duties as a member of the visiting force including whether the act occurred in the course of the individual’s professional duties”.

The US air force has in the past, according to the CPS, interpreted professional duties to include driving from an air base to a home address. The Sacoolas family was reportedly living on the base, which would mean they could not claim that defence.


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Subject: RE: BS: US Diplomatic Immunity in UK
From: Mrrzy
Date: 15 Oct 19 - 05:16 AM

Trumped-up charges aahahahaha sorry.


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Subject: RE: BS: US Diplomatic Immunity in UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 15 Oct 19 - 03:54 AM

Bingo! Right on the button!

In fairness, it exists in order to prevent individuals on diplomatic service and their families from being persecuted by less-than-friendly countries in which they have to serve - an example being where they could be arrested on trumped-up charges...effectively taken as hostages.

But my understanding is that DI does not absolve them from their responsibility to behave within the laws of the host country.


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Subject: RE: BS: US Diplomatic Immunity in UK
From: Mrrzy
Date: 15 Oct 19 - 03:48 AM

Why does diplomatic immunity even exist? I'd rather my dips behave themselves...


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Subject: RE: BS: US Diplomatic Immunity in UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 14 Oct 19 - 06:12 PM

Precisely. She should be returned to the UK to be tried under UK Law.


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Subject: RE: BS: US Diplomatic Immunity in UK
From: Mrrzy
Date: 14 Oct 19 - 04:55 PM

Yeah... But no US court has jurisdiction. It's not as if she killed him *in* the embassy, which is technically DC.


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Subject: RE: BS: US Diplomatic Immunity in UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 14 Oct 19 - 11:30 AM

Not satisfactory, Mrrzy.

Justice should be seen to be done (R v Sussex Justices, ex parte McCarthy ([1924] 1 KB 256, [1923] - impossible whilst the accused is skulking in another country and refusing to face her accusers.


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Subject: RE: BS: US Diplomatic Immunity in UK
From: Mrrzy
Date: 14 Oct 19 - 10:37 AM

Try her in abstensia.


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Subject: RE: BS: US Diplomatic Immunity in UK
From: Mr Red
Date: 14 Oct 19 - 04:04 AM

The BBC reported that:

not only did the UK gov point out that being in America means she has no immunity now, the American gov confirmed the situation.

Which would suggest extradition was the route, though it looks like the family of the dead lad are looking into using the American courts.


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Subject: RE: BS: US Diplomatic Immunity in UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Oct 19 - 01:20 PM

The parents of the dead boy are awaiting a meeting with the culprit
She appears to have agreed to meet them (with her lawyer present), but I don't think anything has happened yet
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: US Diplomatic Immunity in UK
From: Mrrzy
Date: 13 Oct 19 - 10:17 AM

Ooh https://www-m.cnn.com/2019/10/13/uk/harry-dunn-immunity-intl-gbr-scli/index.html?r=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.cnn.com%2F

Immunity now irrelevant says UK because she fled.


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Subject: RE: BS: US Diplomatic Immunity in UK
From: Mrrzy
Date: 13 Oct 19 - 10:01 AM

Spy, again.

After the Tehran embassy takeover, we all got dip passports so that people (terrorists) couldn't tell who the CIA employees were.

That did not give us all diplomatic immunity except coming into the country, when our bags could not be searched. Has something illegal been seen, customs could not have done anything about it, even though we were not actually diplomatic. Again, that is how immunity works.


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Subject: RE: BS: US Diplomatic Immunity in UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 12 Oct 19 - 12:20 PM

A very interesting article here claiming complicity on the part of the UK’s own FCO, raising the issues of who, in fact, was driving the car, the fact that Mr. Sacoolas is not a diplomat within the meaning defined in the Vienna Convention, his role in assisting GCHQ to spy on British citizens’ communications, and asking important questions about this whole sordid, outrageous business.


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Subject: RE: BS: US Diplomatic Immunity in UK
From: Mrrzy
Date: 12 Oct 19 - 11:12 AM

Search for Spy. More than one mention.

You are a dip in US who commits a crime, your embassy can get you out. That is immunity.

That's why the issue is immunity, not that it was applied here.


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Subject: RE: BS: US Diplomatic Immunity in UK
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 12 Oct 19 - 08:34 AM

How many times have US Forces opened fire and killed friendly forces because of their gung ho attitude, and the USA defends them and denies justice ? It's time the rest of the world gave good old Uncle Sam the same respect.

Dave H


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Subject: RE: BS: US Diplomatic Immunity in UK
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 12 Oct 19 - 08:29 AM

Shame on the USA for denying justice to the English family bereaved by this woman, it's a disgrace to democracy.

Dave H


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Subject: RE: BS: US Diplomatic Immunity in UK
From: Monique
Date: 12 Oct 19 - 04:05 AM

Iains' link.


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Subject: RE: BS: US Diplomatic Immunity in UK
From: Iains
Date: 12 Oct 19 - 03:43 AM

Background for those that are inquisitive:
https://www.thedailybeast.com/anne-sacoolas-american-diplomat-wife-fled-england-after-killing-19-year-old-harry-dunn-with-her-ca

Diplomat or convenient cover?


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Subject: RE: BS: US Diplomatic Immunity in UK
From: Gurney
Date: 12 Oct 19 - 01:09 AM

Steve Shaw has it right up there. I used to wonder, as a child, why America drove on the right when in all their films, their stagecoaches drove on the left. It was explained to me that everyone drove on the left in those days so that the driver could swing his whip right-handed.
Then there was that Napoleon bloke who took over most of Europe and ordered that everyone did everything to his way of thinking.
I wonder if HE was left-handed?


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Subject: RE: BS: US Diplomatic Immunity in UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 11 Oct 19 - 03:45 PM

There seems to be a lot of victim-blaming by Americans going on - both from Drumpf in respect of the Sacoolas case, and the soldiers in the case Iains linked to above.

Yet again I ask, what would be the reaction of Americans - especially Herr Führer Drumpf - if the circumstances were reversed, and Americans had been killed by British citizens in the US, who were then whisked away home in secret in order to avoid responsibility for their own fatal stupidity?


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Subject: RE: BS: US Diplomatic Immunity in UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 11 Oct 19 - 03:36 PM

”You keep saying spy as if that mattered.”

Errrrrrrmmm...no! I haven’t referred to anyone as a ‘spy’. I don’t see where ”anyone on this thread has referred to anyone as a ‘spy’. The only reference I notice is from Steve, where he says that he’s read that the husband is ‘not a registered diplomat’. That’s very different to saying that he’s a ‘spy’.


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Subject: RE: BS: US Diplomatic Immunity in UK
From: Iains
Date: 11 Oct 19 - 03:35 PM

https://morningstaronline.co.uk/article/its-wrong-%E2%80%93-widow-blasts-us-troops-impunity-coroner-rules-captains-death

Who in their right mind uses a forklift instead of a flatbed to move a shipping container 3km ?


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Subject: RE: BS: US Diplomatic Immunity in UK
From: Iains
Date: 11 Oct 19 - 03:21 PM

The issue is not simply cutting and running but the US abusing an agreement extending diplomatic immunity to spies and their dependents under SOFAS agreements. This is not diplomatic immunity sensu stricto.
The United States has been party to multilateral and bilateral agreements addressing the status of U.S. armed forces while present in a foreign country. These agreements, commonly referred to as Status of Forces Agreements (SOFAs), generally establish the framework under which U.S. military personnel operate in a foreign country, addressing how the domestic laws of the foreign jurisdiction shall be applied toward U.S. personnel while in that country.
Under similar circumstances the US has a history of leaning on countries to revoke diplomatic immunity in order to bring charges.

In the vernaciular you (the US)are taking the piss, and I do not like it.


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Subject: RE: BS: US Diplomatic Immunity in UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 11 Oct 19 - 01:23 PM

Mrrzy, under UK law, anyone who drives on the wrong side of the road and kills another driver coming the other way on the correct side of the road is guilty of the criminal offence of ‘Causing Death by Dangerous Driving’.

DI exists to prevent the wrongful prosecution and/or persecution of Diplomatic personnel and their families, and as a deterrent to them being detained as hostages. It does not, or should not exist to enable those people to engage in criminal activity and avoid responsibility for their criminality.

If I drove on the wrong side of the road in the US and killed a US citizen, I would be prosecuted under US law - absolutely rightfully. If you drove on the wrong side of the road in the UK and killed a UK citizen, you would be prosecuted under UK law - absolutely rightfully.

Why should this woman be able to evade responsibility for her criminal activity - which you and I would, under similar circumstances, be subject to prosecution over - simply because her husband works for the US government?

THAT is the issue.


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Subject: RE: BS: US Diplomatic Immunity in UK
From: Mrrzy
Date: 11 Oct 19 - 11:43 AM

You keep saying spy as if that mattered. The hubby's position is irrelevant to the wife's driving and to the state dept's decision to whisk her away. She killed someone accidentally, they used her immunity; that's what immunity is for. Or do you think that her hubby's job made her murder that poor kid? If not, why keep bringing up irrelevancies? The issue is the *existence* of immunity, not the fact that it was appropriately applied. Other countries protect their dips in the US and Europe and all over the world. That's what it's for.


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Subject: RE: BS: US Diplomatic Immunity in UK
From: Iains
Date: 11 Oct 19 - 11:02 AM

It has been suggested the American ambassador should be declared persona non grata unless the diplomatic immunity to the CIA spy's wife is revoked. The accident is the third   caused by personnel from US military installations driving on the wrong side of the road.
"Houston. You have a problem"


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Subject: RE: BS: US Diplomatic Immunity in UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 11 Oct 19 - 01:49 AM

Well if so, Mrrzy, that makes it even worse - again I ask, can you imagine the Tweetstorm from Herr Drumpf if the situation was reversed, and an American teenager was killed by a British diplomat’s wife driving dangerously on the wrong side of the road, and who was then whisked away back to the UK in order to avoid responsibility?


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Subject: RE: BS: US Diplomatic Immunity in UK
From: Mrrzy
Date: 10 Oct 19 - 11:32 PM

Is it the case that the embassy got her out under their orders rather than her request?


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Subject: RE: BS: US Diplomatic Immunity in UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 10 Oct 19 - 11:00 AM

Well bugger me backwards! Another long-held illusion shattered!

https://www.rulesofsport.com/faq/why-is-the-world-series-called-the-world-series-if-only-american-teams-play.html


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Subject: RE: BS: US Diplomatic Immunity in UK
From: gillymor
Date: 10 Oct 19 - 10:36 AM

It looks like Steve had it right, I'd always bought into the New York World explanation but I'll blame my other gaffe, "Fall Classical" on my Kindle.

And thanks for that post, Rob Naylor.


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Subject: RE: BS: US Diplomatic Immunity in UK
From: Rob Naylor
Date: 10 Oct 19 - 09:38 AM

Trump defended his decision to withdraw US troops from Syria and enable a Turkish offensive against US-backed Kurdish fighters in the region by noting that the Kurds “didn’t help us in the second world war, they didn’t help us with Normandy as an example –

Not in Normandy, no, but they did form part of the allied OOB in the middle east, as "The Iraq Levies":

By 1942, the Iraq Levies consisted of a Headquarters, a Depot, Specialist Assyrian companies, 40 service companies and the 1st Parachute Company, which consisted of 75% Assyrian and 25% Kurd.

By 1943 the Iraq Levies' strength stood at 166 British officers controlling 44 companies: 22 Assyrian; five mixed Assyrian/Yazidi; 10 Kurdish; 4 Marsh Arabs and 3 Baluchi. Eleven Assyrian companies served in Palestine and another 4 served in Cyprus. The Parachute Company was attached to the Royal Marines Commando.

But they weren't on Omaha Beach, so I guess it doesn't count!


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Subject: RE: BS: US Diplomatic Immunity in UK
From: Mossback
Date: 10 Oct 19 - 09:17 AM

I hate to say I told you so(09 Oct 19 - 03:06 PM), but I told you so:

Briefing notes for a press conference on Wednesday told the president: “(If raised) Note, as Secretary Pompeo [the US secretary of state, Mike Pompeo] told Raab [the UK foreign secretary, Dominic Raab], that the spouse of the US government employee will not return to the United Kingdom.”"

And then (Thread Drift Alert) President Incredible Colossal Dumbfuck went on to explain:

Trump defended his decision to withdraw US troops from Syria and enable a Turkish offensive against US-backed Kurdish fighters in the region by noting that the Kurds “didn’t help us in the second world war, they didn’t help us with Normandy as an example –


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Subject: RE: BS: US Diplomatic Immunity in UK
From: gillymor
Date: 10 Oct 19 - 07:02 AM

Right, BWM, the New York World, a now defunct newspaper, was the original sponsor of the Fall Classical and, btw, congratulations to the Nats for closing out the mighty Dodgers with a glorious come from behind victory last night.


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Subject: RE: BS: US Diplomatic Immunity in UK
From: Iains
Date: 10 Oct 19 - 06:53 AM

https://time.com/5696300/diplomatic-immunity-harry-dunn/

You have to admit that if the US hoped the case would remain under the radar it has backfired in a spectacular fashion

In 1974, police reported that a car driven by an attache at the Panamian Embassy ran a red light and collided with a car in which Dr. Halla Brown, a professor at George Washington University Medical School, was a passenger. Brown was paralyzed for life. The attache, uninsured, couldn't be compelled to pay damages. Some congressmen threatened to cut off aid to Panama, and eventually its government paid $100,000 toward Brown's medical expenses.


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Subject: RE: BS: US Diplomatic Immunity in UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Oct 19 - 06:52 AM

And your information is wrong in any case.

"The real reason behind the name is thanks to Barney Dreyfuss who was the owner of the Pittsburgh Pirates. In 1903, he wrote to the owner of the Boston Red Sox challenging them to a ‘World’s Championship Series’. The Pirates were the best team in the National League and the Red Sox were the best in the American League.

The games went ahead and Boston won the series five games to three. Over time, the 'World’s Championship Series' name has been shortened to the World Series and has been played every year apart from 1904 and 1994."


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Subject: RE: BS: US Diplomatic Immunity in UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Oct 19 - 06:50 AM

It's still a stupid title, John. At least the footie World Cup involves teams from all over the actual world. Had I sent my school rounders team over the pond to join in the yanks would never have let them! :-)


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Subject: RE: BS: US Diplomatic Immunity in UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Oct 19 - 06:44 AM

Mo':

From Country Life magazine:

"The Americans, of course, drive on the right. Initially, when it was a British colony, the inhabitants drove on the left, but following their rebellion in 1776, they forswore all practices they associated with their colonial masters. Of course, the influx of settlers from European countries who had been subjected to the dread influence of the French also helped." [The "dread influence" was that of Napoleon, who enshrined driving on the right in much of Europe).

So yanks drive on the right because their forebears were just peevish. Though it should be said that the change didn't happen all in one go.


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