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climate crisis - how do we go from here?

peteaberdeen 14 Sep 19 - 06:29 AM
peteaberdeen 14 Sep 19 - 07:19 AM
Dave the Gnome 14 Sep 19 - 12:29 PM
Dave the Gnome 14 Sep 19 - 12:30 PM
peteaberdeen 14 Sep 19 - 01:42 PM
Mr Red 16 Sep 19 - 04:48 AM
Steve Shaw 16 Sep 19 - 05:26 AM
Doug Chadwick 16 Sep 19 - 07:01 AM
Steve Shaw 16 Sep 19 - 09:53 AM
Stilly River Sage 16 Sep 19 - 01:21 PM
Iains 16 Sep 19 - 01:30 PM
mg 16 Sep 19 - 08:10 PM
Mr Red 17 Sep 19 - 03:34 AM
peteaberdeen 17 Sep 19 - 03:40 AM
Iains 17 Sep 19 - 04:17 AM
peteaberdeen 17 Sep 19 - 10:13 AM
Stilly River Sage 17 Sep 19 - 10:58 AM
Iains 17 Sep 19 - 12:00 PM
Steve Shaw 17 Sep 19 - 06:47 PM
Stilly River Sage 17 Sep 19 - 07:12 PM
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Big Al Whittle 17 Sep 19 - 08:19 PM
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Iains 18 Sep 19 - 03:25 AM
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Mr Red 19 Sep 19 - 03:49 AM
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Iains 20 Sep 19 - 10:27 AM
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Subject: climate crisis - how do we go from here?
From: peteaberdeen
Date: 14 Sep 19 - 06:29 AM

i don't know if i've seen a similar thread before and wonder if we are too concerned with the small stuff to address the bigger picture. maybe the question is how we all deal with each other to work together for the good of our communities and our planet. love thy neighbour, plant a tree and don't eat meat....etc. those of us who are getting on a bit (63) have a responsibility to do no harm and get out of the way for more positivity. or something.


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Subject: RE: climate crisis - how do we go from here?
From: peteaberdeen
Date: 14 Sep 19 - 07:19 AM

the 'get out of the way' thing was more of a political choice really. if you look at the 'team photos' of heads of government at any conference it is invariably men of a similar age in similar suits and probably very similar ideas. and angela merkel. for all of us trying so hard to look and think like everyone else , with minor variations, this can only lead to a lack of imagination and a reduced capacity to empathise with many millions of poverished people, a frying planet ...or peace.

when original thinkers get any space in the debate they are usually ridiculed or disregarded as hopeless idealists but listening to them and to what nature is telling us has to be way more hopeful than listening to yet another clone in a suit or religious mediaevalist (is that a word? you know what i mean....)


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Subject: RE: climate crisis - how do we go from here?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 14 Sep 19 - 12:29 PM

There are massive free planting programs in the east. Over a billion planted in Pakistan and huge military type operations in China. I don't know if it will make up for tropical deforestation but we have to try. We also need to reforest parts of the UK and Europe to help to prevent flooding and make a start on offsetting CO2 emmisions. Algae and lichen are also massive CO2 absorbers which need to be explored. Of course all this time we need to start reducing the use of fossil fuels and, as I see it, getting rid of private transport would be a huge help.

As a tecnophile I am hopeful of a technical solution being found. Whether that is safe nuclear power, hydrogen based or something entirely different is beyond my ken! All in all though, I am optimistic. Maybe falsely but at least it stops me getting depressed :-)


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Subject: RE: climate crisis - how do we go from here?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 14 Sep 19 - 12:30 PM

Free planting=tree planting.

Blummin spill chucker.


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Subject: RE: climate crisis - how do we go from here?
From: peteaberdeen
Date: 14 Sep 19 - 01:42 PM

i read recently that at the start of the 20th century in n america there were up to 4 billion chestnut trees lost to a blight. (book was 'overstory' by richard powers. great book, by the way) though it is a small world , it's also massive


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Subject: RE: climate crisis - how do we go from here?
From: Mr Red
Date: 16 Sep 19 - 04:48 AM

The problem is that everyone ignores potential efforts in their own way. I use the bus a lot, but on a Saturday I might drive 1 hour to a Folk event. For all the mixed efforts I can at least look to Lundun (innit?) and question the "upto" 2 hour commute and label it (truthfully) madness. And look at the Chelsea Tractors going to work.
The car industry has given us ever more economical cars and "battery &/or hybrids" that still pump out CO2 somewhere in the chain. And then gives us gas guzzlers with ever more power (to guzzle). And cute phrases like "Self Charging Hybrids" that hide the truth.

And then there are the ever greater numbers of people who want what we have. Science and Technology will sort it, but only when it is so bad, and we won't like the results that it implies. Predictions won't tell you all! Brace yerself.

My Canadian cousins, on a visit to Europe (air miles?) commented on lack of UK efforts to re-cycle - obviously not registering the green houshold bins and maybe hidden public bins in pretty Cotswold places they "had" to visit. But they had a point, is it enough?

how do we go from here? - it requires a climate of puritanism. But like the Victorians who signed the "pledge" - it didn't close the pubs. It has to hit rock bottom, and that is a long way down.


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Subject: RE: climate crisis - how do we go from here?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Sep 19 - 05:26 AM

Tree planting is of course A Good Thing, but, acre-for-acre, there is no substitute for tropical rain forest for soaking up carbon dioxide. That's where we urgently need to start. It would help if we could desist from electing climate idiots as presidents in Brazil and the US.


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Subject: RE: climate crisis - how do we go from here?
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 16 Sep 19 - 07:01 AM

...the question is how we all deal with each other to work together for the good of our communities and our planet. love thy neighbour, plant a tree and ....
WHAT?   ...don't eat meat ....   NO!

I was prepared to go along with you but that's a step too far.

DC


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Subject: RE: climate crisis - how do we go from here?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Sep 19 - 09:53 AM

The no-meat furore is a bandwagon eagerly jumped on by the more evangelical veganistas. We shouldn't be rearing meat on land that can grow food crops, or which supports rain forest, and we shouldn't be growing half our cereal crops (as we do in the UK) for animal feed. But that still leaves a lot of land that is far better suited for animal-rearing than for crop-growing. Mountainous or hilly areas, or land with thin or rocky soils, or land that is difficult to irrigate all lend themselves to animal husbandry. In poorer countries, animal manure may provide most or all of the fertiliser for subsistence farmers, chemical fertilisers being both far too expensive and far too ruinous of the soil. It all means less meat, but not no meat. And we do have omnivore teeth and guts.


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Subject: RE: climate crisis - how do we go from here?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 16 Sep 19 - 01:21 PM

There are sustainable ways of raising beef that are actually better for the landscape, but it involves the old-fashioned cowboy kind of work, moving them to a space, letting them graze it down, then move along to the next space. Think American bison and how robust the Great Plains were till pioneers came along and put up fences and killed off the bison.


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Subject: RE: climate crisis - how do we go from here?
From: Iains
Date: 16 Sep 19 - 01:30 PM

Mountainous or hilly areas, or land with thin or rocky soils,
In theory perhaps in practice it does not work. You either reduce numbers in winter(traditionally by salting down the meat) or by supplementary feeding. (Where do you think that comes from?)or you have a much lower headcount for a given area.
To make the idea even remotely feasible you have to deal with the massive overpopulation problem.
The problem no one wants to articulate, much less deal with.


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Subject: RE: climate crisis - how do we go from here?
From: mg
Date: 16 Sep 19 - 08:10 PM

overpopulation. biggest problem of all. with climate change and turmoil, massive numbers of people will have to be moved from place to place..good luck with that. first of all make sure that men and women are allowed to choose their family size, which probably won't be ten kids. get any religions to quit making people suffer in poverty when their lives could be bettered. unless there is wwiii, which could happen..we have many ingredients to turn things around..birth control, internet, charity water, free energy coming..smarter construction..better education, cell phone throughout populations bring improved agriculture and medicine...robots for most dangerous work...it all can be improved if populations don't exceed resources...


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Subject: RE: climate crisis - how do we go from here?
From: Mr Red
Date: 17 Sep 19 - 03:34 AM

We shouldn't be rearing meat on land that can grow food crops, or which supports rain forest,

There was a radio prog in the 80's that advocated Brazil should be rearing capybara which are better suited to the area.

The real problem is population. The more of us, the more land we need for food, and that conflicts with the ecosystem that gave us the clement weather that allowed us to proliferate.

Ants and cockroaches will survive, we won't unless we recognise rock bottom before we hit it. I say we, it will be our great great great grandchildren who will reap the results of our profligacy. It will be the slowest car crash of all time.


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Subject: RE: climate crisis - how do we go from here?
From: peteaberdeen
Date: 17 Sep 19 - 03:40 AM

i've always thought the problem isn't so much population as politics. not children but greed. in the vast differences between obscenely wealthy and dirt poor individuals and countries. we spend massively on weapons -particularly in countries where they can't afford it. if only we could sort that - it's the perennial and most pressing problem of all. a marxist solution if you like, but very necessary


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Subject: RE: climate crisis - how do we go from here?
From: Iains
Date: 17 Sep 19 - 04:17 AM

a marxist solution if you like, but very necessary

Dachas and Gulags? or perhaps Mao's Great Leap Forward ?
The latter only killed 35 to 50 million, depending on who you believe.


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Subject: RE: climate crisis - how do we go from here?
From: peteaberdeen
Date: 17 Sep 19 - 10:13 AM

of course, life is a struggle between those with the power and the wealth and the rest of us (this leaves out the gullible, the fore-lock tuggers and those more interested in heaven/hell than this world - but we should presume they are happy enough with their lot) Currently trump is awaiting instruction from the saudi arabian king on whether to start a war with Iran. unimaginable human cost, environmental destruction and astronomical financial consequences could result. a war will be good for business for a tiny minority and the dictators will attract a few more arse-lickers, knuckle-draggers, turnips and bullies to their foul cause.
would the british government back saudi arabia/trump? i'm sure without this lust for war or the mediaeval religions we could work out ways to live together with understanding and compassion. save each other and the planet! you may say i'm a dreamer, that's ok - but it has to be better than having nothing good to hope for


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Subject: RE: climate crisis - how do we go from here?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 17 Sep 19 - 10:58 AM

Unsophisticated responses to the term "Marxist" are always what push those good ideas to the back burner. As illustrated.


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Subject: RE: climate crisis - how do we go from here?
From: Iains
Date: 17 Sep 19 - 12:00 PM

Marxism is the system of socialism of which the dominant feature is public ownership of the means of production, distribution, and exchange.

Socialism is a range of economic and social systems characterised by social ownership of the means of production and workers' self-management, as well as the political theories and movements associated with them. Social ownership can be public, collective or cooperative ownership, or citizen ownership of equity.

communism a theory or system of social organization in which all property is owned by the community and each person contributes and receives according to their ability and needs.

It always seems that those on the top of the pile need the most, those at the bottom get shat on.

You do not have to very sophisticated to appreciate that truism.

As I said dachas for the needy/greedy, the gulag for those at the bottom.


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Subject: RE: climate crisis - how do we go from here?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Sep 19 - 06:47 PM

As illustrated indeed. Come and join us, SRS. Just pretend he's not here. We're still working on Jim...


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Subject: RE: climate crisis - how do we go from here?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 17 Sep 19 - 07:12 PM

You don't have an understanding of how the term has shifted in philosophical terms over the years. Marxism is a perfectly acceptable approach to many discussions and solutions to problems. I'm not accepting your short and limited definitions of anything, but I'm also not getting into an argument with you because your sources are too unreliable.


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Subject: RE: climate crisis - how do we go from here?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Sep 19 - 08:09 PM

I assume that's a response not to me but to the post before mine.


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Subject: RE: climate crisis - how do we go from here?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 17 Sep 19 - 08:19 PM

upstairs on the right...


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Subject: RE: climate crisis - how do we go from here?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 17 Sep 19 - 08:28 PM

Yes. The screen must have been open for a while so I didn't see yours.


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Subject: RE: climate crisis - how do we go from here?
From: Iains
Date: 18 Sep 19 - 03:25 AM

If you are trying to lecture me I can assure you it is a wasted effort.
I prefer to be educated by recognised experts.


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Subject: RE: climate crisis - how do we go from here?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 18 Sep 19 - 10:52 AM

Then read them and follow-up: use them as sources you actually cite.


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Subject: RE: climate crisis - how do we go from here?
From: Mr Red
Date: 19 Sep 19 - 03:49 AM

Population is the biggest threat. If you spread the wealth evenly around the world, we in the west would be poorer (howdyalikethat?) and and the starving millions in 3rd and 2.5 world countries would be able to consume more. Net result, more pollution.

As I keep saying "we won't like the consequences". see above.

Reduce the population and you reduce the pollution. Not a solution that is ever going to work without starvation, pestilence or war. And they are all hovering like the sword of Damocles. As I said "we won't like.............."

Or we could limit families to one child for a while and end up with criminality like India, or a preponderance of bachelors (and prostitutes) like China. As I said "we won't like.............."

Science and technology will sort it all out. As I said "we won't like.............."


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Subject: RE: climate crisis - how do we go from here?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Sep 19 - 08:10 AM

LARGEST CLIMATE CHANGE PROTEST IN HISTORY
Brings a lump to the throat
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: climate crisis - how do we go from here?
From: Iains
Date: 20 Sep 19 - 10:27 AM

Britain produces widgets 1/13 of the value of China. Power generation is China, to produce said widgets is very dirty compared to Europe.
The protestors should try their luck in Tiananmen Square. I am sure the Chinese would be delighted to demonstrate how to disperse ecoloons.
The ecobrat has a lot to answer for.
They may bring a lump to your throat,but the majority undoubtedly regard then as a pain in the arse.


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Subject: RE: climate crisis - how do we go from here?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 20 Sep 19 - 10:39 AM

For boots on the ground you can join 350.org and participate in a climate strike.

https://globalclimatestrike.net/?source=350org It looks like the closest one for some of you is at:

    County Square, Ulverston. County Square Ulverston England United Kingdom LA12 7LA


Or you can hop over to the continent and go to one in France, Germany, or Spain. Heck, there's even one out in the middle of the Atlantic on Santa Maria and one in the far north on Iceland.


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Subject: RE: climate crisis - how do we go from here?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Sep 19 - 12:10 PM

Thanks Stilly
That's a very impressive organisation
Makes you ashamed to have left it in the hands of youngsters, though you don't have to look far to see why
I was amused to see from television reports that the crowds in Dublin jammed up Merrion Square so much today that it must have been near impossible to get into 'The Irish Traditional Music Archive', but I'm sure the people there were as chuffed to see them there as much as I was
Jim


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Subject: RE: climate crisis - how do we go from here?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 Sep 19 - 01:28 PM

Proud to say that one of my daughters, who works for an art supplies company, is running a pop up shop in their store tomorrow to show how to be more environmentally friendly when creating art works. It was her idea. She had to convince management it was worthwhile and they have now taken it on board big time.

Every little helps as they say:-)


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Subject: RE: climate crisis - how do we go from here?
From: Pete from seven stars link
Date: 20 Sep 19 - 03:25 PM

That's a lot of kids and adults up for saving the planet . I suppose they are all living a green life , and willing to forego all the conveniences that consume the dwindling energy supply . I'm sure too that they will be happy to pay higher taxes that may be entailed in the enactment of measures to combat the alleged man made problem                                 Or maybe not .........


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Subject: RE: climate crisis - how do we go from here?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 20 Sep 19 - 05:39 PM

Clearly you're not interested, Pete, so why bother to remark, just to cast shade on the discussion? These young people want to lead a life that makes the planet is a healthier place for all. And yes, it will mean a shift in spending, and there is nothing "alleged" about it. Humans have pushed the CO2 level in the atmosphere to such an extent that things are changing rapidly for all of us.


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Subject: RE: climate crisis - how do we go from here?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 Sep 19 - 05:39 PM

There is no alleged about it, Pete. It is a man made problem. And yes, I would forego any amount of convenience or pay any extra taxes to ensure the planet's future for our children and grandchildren.


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Subject: RE: climate crisis - how do we go from here?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Sep 19 - 06:00 PM

The young people who have turned out today are amazing. Greta is, to me, a hero. I watched a recording this evening of Billy Connolly's last tour of America. He was there on the Woodstock site with three "veterans" of Woodstock. He mused that Woodstock had changed the world. Well I love Billy and admire his uncanny ability to celebrate the small things. But Woodstock changed nothing. The Woodstock generation, which includes me (I was 18), have screwed this world up big-time, in all manner of ways including climate change. I look at those kids on the telly tonight and I cheerfully suspend my usual cynical view that it's unwise to work with children and animals. The children are bloody brilliant, and I am ashamed.


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Subject: RE: climate crisis - how do we go from here?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 20 Sep 19 - 10:46 PM

Steve, don't sell our generation short (I'm 65, my ex is 72). Some of our cohort may be part of the problem but we raised children in a way to recognize that they are part of the solution. The "Greatest Generation" gave rise to the Baby Boomers, and this Boomer was in her 30s when she had children (though her children have friends whose grandparents are my age). I'd had a lot of time to think about our place in the world, about environmental issues (the first Earth Day happened when I was in high school - perhaps more significant to the environment that Woodstock? Woodstock had more baggage about ending the Vietnam war.)

I grew up with the Population Bomb and Fahrenheit 451 and Silent Spring and any number of other excellent examinations of mid-twentieth century life and impact on the world. My bi-racial children were raised in a multi-cultural environment and have good educations but it wasn't handed to them - one, though hard work in high school, won a full scholarship to a Tier 1 university and the other, just as smart but not great at math or she'd have had the same scholarship, worked her way through. Their father helped with rent for one and tuition for the other, but the rest was up to them. They are in a position to earn more than their parents, but we guided them through their early years to see the advantages of finishing their educations (and advanced degrees—graduating debt free). It took a village to raise my children and their classmates, but I think they are fully cognizant of the world before them and that we all have to work on a solution. It doesn't help that there is a blip in this, the asshole in the White House determined to support big business by undoing every environmental law and standard he can get his hands on. We all know what is going on, and once he's out, will have to work to solidify regulations so another asshole can't undo them (and to clarify that a president who breaks the law can be indicted in office).

/rant off/


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Subject: RE: climate crisis - how do we go from here?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Sep 19 - 03:02 AM

I go along with Steve - the potential potential for our kids to make the world a better place kids is unbelievably is unbelievable but it's being sold out in every way
Technology should be a massive stepping stone to a better world - instead it's being used to turn them into zombies
Ihe were stopping in a Gaway hotel a couple of weeks ago and were horrified to see a toddler who could only just walk sitting on the floor and playing games on a mobile phone - a few yards away her parents were doing the same - sick !
I got interested in folk song at the beginning of the swinging sixties - in Liverpool
The machine got hold of our music for a time and turned it into sellable pap - unfortunately 'Bobbie' allowed himself to become part of that
The bad company I fell in with became part of the Aldermaston marches, and later the Anti-Apartheid and Anti Vietnam movements, but there were few of us and we were regarded as freaks
I became a refugee and escaped to Manchester because my home town had become 'Beatles-infested' - it even drove some of the best jazz in Britain out of The Cavern
When Pat and I started working with Travellers we were looked on with suspicion at first, but eventually managed to show we were genuinely interested in their culture
At first they asked us "are you the wobs? (police) - "No" "Are you social workers?" "No"
Then they called us "The Students", associating us with the groups of young people who used to give up their spare time helping them fight prejudice and push for better conditions
Woodstock was fine (until Altamont turned it into a nightmare) as long as you could take it and leave it to get on with real life
These climate climate kids made me remember the time when enough young people were aware enough of the bad things happening in the world to want to do something about it
I hope they don't get patronised and marginalised by the politcians

I regard one hate-filled comment made not a hundred miles from here little more than child abuse, I'm afraid - let's hope it isn't shared by too many
These young people are doing something our generation should never have made necessary - they deserve both our respect and our gratitude - and a deep apology from all of us
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: climate crisis - how do we go from here?
From: Mr Red
Date: 21 Sep 19 - 05:33 AM

Hey - I remember the demonstrations in Grosvenor Square about Vietnam. And the US had plenty more. They made a difference. They told the politicians something you can't put on a ballot paper.

A single issue in a highly complex world. A pointed message.

And there were a lot of young people in Grosvenor Square.

True the young have more to gain/loose from climate change/mitigation/reversal. But if they are anything like us, they will prove "good" (actually better IMNSHO).


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Subject: RE: climate crisis - how do we go from here?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Sep 19 - 05:53 AM

"They made a difference"
Didn't they just - they may not have got everything but at least they gacve us the pleasure of seeing the Saigion embassy staff scrambling into the helicopters on the roof
Almost as pleasurable as seeing Mad Maggie being driven away in tears when her favourite toys were taken from her
I was in the front line next to Peggy Seeger in Grosvenor Square that glorious day - her enthusiasm scared me shitless

I never understand why the most hate-filled dinosaurist bile so often comes with a religious quote (or maybe I don't)
I seem to remember that Pete kicks with that foot
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: climate crisis - how do we go from here?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Sep 19 - 06:04 AM

Well, SRS, you illustrate well the point that good-hearted individuals may have made small mitigations, and that we haven't all been willingly signed up to the depredations that the ruthless and self-interested big guns have visited on the environment, but the looming disaster has come about on our watch whether we like it or not. Plenty - by no means all - of those Woodstock-era hippies rapidly turned into the ruthless capitalists that in large part have got us to where we are, that is, in a horrid pickle with no clue as to how we get out of it. We can hope - and help to avoid it - that the recoil of the children doesn't end with the history of the last 50 years repeating itself.


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Subject: RE: climate crisis - how do we go from here?
From: gillymor
Date: 21 Sep 19 - 07:24 AM

Take courage from and have compassion for these children, get out in the streets with them, live as green as you can, support candidates that are green and actually have a chance at getting elected, get rid of Trump the deregulator who would take us back to the '50's in terms of environmental awareness and ignore the programmed zombies of the status quo like Guido Jr. and Pete.


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Subject: RE: climate crisis - how do we go from here?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 Sep 19 - 07:48 AM

Gillymor :-D *BG*


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Subject: RE: climate crisis - how do we go from here?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Sep 19 - 06:15 AM

NOT BEFORE TIME
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: climate crisis - how do we go from here?
From: Bill D
Date: 22 Sep 19 - 12:25 PM

"i've always thought the problem isn't so much population as politics. not children but greed."

Levels of causality....
If we were all suddenly altruistic and reasonable, it is not clear that the situation would improve. Earth will not support 79 trillion people, no matter how nice and sharing they are and no matter whether politicians begin to look beyond their own re-election.

We artificially control deer populations and thin herds of cattle, but the very concept of mandatory birth control on ourselves seems to trigger all sorts of rationalizations. "But the bible says be fruitful and multiply" "I need children to help with the farm" and the simple one.. "I forgot to use..."

Just imagine if a proposal were made to implant timed-release contraceptives in 1/3 of all girls at at puberty....


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Subject: RE: climate crisis - how do we go from here?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Sep 19 - 04:44 PM

Why girls?


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Subject: RE: climate crisis - how do we go from here?
From: Bill D
Date: 22 Sep 19 - 07:54 PM

Because females are the narrow part of the flow chart. You know the old joke: You can't get a baby in 9 months by putting 9 men on the job?

Sci-fi authors for many years have based 'moving humans to a new star' by assuming that a colony ship would need X times more women than men.

If anyone ever took the idea seriously... sure.. do something with men also, but hormonal contraceptives are already worked out for women.

... and I don't pretend that *I* have the only possible solution... just that all the others I can think of are pretty extreme.. Soylent Green, anyone?


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Subject: RE: climate crisis - how do we go from here?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Sep 19 - 09:24 PM

Dear me.


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Subject: RE: climate crisis - how do we go from here?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Sep 19 - 03:08 AM

Echoed loudly Steve
It seems the dinosaurism extends beyond yaking care of our planet to misogyny and eugenics
Mankind has survived as long as it has because it constantly sought to understood and adapted to its natural environment - that ability seems to be as lost as all the other skills that have been temporarily replaced by so-called advance
I see little point in discussing with someone who can't tell the difference between effects of producing children out of necessity for survival and the neglect and deliberate destruction of our most essential natural assets because it is 'profitable' to do so or not 'economically beneficial' to maintain them   
The thought that some people might lose the use of their SuVs seems to fill people with uncontrollable dread, yet the production of cheap oil to run them has caused more ecological damage than a whole history of floods and forest fires, as well as destabilising our existence with permanent wars and mass migration
Greta Thunberg is, as yet, an unknown figure, yet in a few months she has managed to put our generation to shame and forced (some of) us to think of what damage we are doing to our fellow man
I don't know what she's on but a lot more people need to try it
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: climate crisis - how do we go from here?
From: Iains
Date: 23 Sep 19 - 04:07 AM

Of course much has been made of the hocky stick graphs in the perambulations of climate science and Dr Mann is very protective of his graph and jumps into court to protect it. Hence the recent case below is rather important. Essentially Dr Mann had 8 years to submit his data to the court to substantiate his case. He refused and his case was dismissed.
Unfortunate things facts.

https://www.steynonline.com/9742/michael-e-mann-loser
All carefully ignored by the mainstream media! Too many taxes and cosy sinecures rely on the stick being inviolate.

It does need to be pointed out that this is the same branch of science that had some predict global cooling and a new ice age in the 70's, although it must be said that this was largely a minority view hyped up by the media


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Subject: RE: climate crisis - how do we go from here?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Sep 19 - 05:29 AM

Shit
Canada has got it's own Guido - bet he supports 'Blood and Honour'
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: climate crisis - how do we go from here?
From: Iains
Date: 23 Sep 19 - 06:51 AM

https://www.bccourts.ca/jdb-txt/sc/19/15/2019BCSC1580.htm

Terrible things facts! attackthe messenger all you want, the message cannot be refuted. You just make yourself seem silly.


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Subject: RE: climate crisis - how do we go from here?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 23 Sep 19 - 08:05 AM

This says it all about that link above. From Wikipedia:

Steyn has been published by magazines and newspapers around the world, and is a regular guest host of the nationally syndicated Rush Limbaugh Show. He also guest hosts Tucker Carlson Tonight on Fox News, on which he regularly appears as a guest.

In other words, facts don't matter, the politics and the spin do. You're judged by the company you keep.


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Subject: RE: climate crisis - how do we go from here?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Sep 19 - 08:19 AM

Rush Limbaugh
New one on me so I looked him up
"Limbaugh frequently criticizes what he regards as liberal policies and politicians, as well as what he perceives as a pervasive liberal bias in major U.S. media. Limbaugh is among the highest-paid people in U.S. media, signing a contract in 2008 for $400 million through 2016.[5] In 2017, Forbes listed his earnings at $84 million for the previous 12 months, and ranked him the 11th highest-earning celebrity in the world.[6] His most recent contract, signed on July 31, 2016, will take his radio program to 2020, its 32nd year."
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: climate crisis - how do we go from here?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Sep 19 - 08:39 AM

More Limbaugh-dancing here
Racism, Christian fundamentalism, trumpism, supporter of extending the criminalising of drug use, Capital punishment, removal of need for sexual consent, opposes homosexual equality, feminism......

His views on the Environment
"Environmental issues
Limbaugh is critical of environmentalism and climate science.[87] He has disputed claims of anthropogenic global warming, and the relationship between CFCs and depletion of the ozone layer, saying the scientific evidence does not support them.[81] Limbaugh has argued against the scientific consensus on climate change saying it is "just a bunch of scientists organized around a political proposition."[88] He has also argued that projections of climate change are the product of ideologically-motivated computer simulations without the proper support of empirical data, a claim which has been widely debunked.[89][90] Limbaugh has used the term "environmentalist wacko" when referring to left-leaning environmental advocates.[91] As a rhetorical device, he has also used the term to refer to more mainstream climate scientists and other environmental scientists and advocates with whom he disagrees.[92] Limbaugh opposed pollution credits, including a carbon cap-and-trade system, as a way to disproportionately benefit major American investment banks, particularly Goldman Sachs, and claimed that it would destroy the American national economy.[93]
Limbaugh has written that "there are more acres of forestland in America today than when Columbus discovered the continent [sic] in 1492," a claim that is disputed by the United States Forest Service and the American Forestry Association, which state that the precolonial forests have been reduced by about 24 percent or nearly 300 million acres.[94][95]
Limbaugh strongly opposed the proposed Green New Deal and its sponsor Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez.[96]"

Just the place to look for tolerance and humanity
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: climate crisis - how do we go from here?
From: Iains
Date: 23 Sep 19 - 08:56 AM

So I assume both Carrol and stilly river sage deny the findings if the New Brunswick court. How laughable!


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Subject: RE: climate crisis - how do we go from here?
From: Donuel
Date: 23 Sep 19 - 11:05 AM

Where are we now and what are 'we' doing?
We are only in the global agitation phase.
For example since 6AM today DC has demonstrations to block major pinch points of traffic with thier bodies. Making inconveiniences for commuters having to sit in their gasoline cars at rush hour is a pithy response at this late date.

Population will be the last thing we ever address seriously.

On the bright side the bastards like the climate denying Kochs are dying in front of us. However the climatastrophe of the melting tundra and the great methane release of the Cheney fracking scheme makes the advance of climate change a hundred times faster.

Some countries like Germany are taking extraordinary but tiny steps compared to what the US, Russia and China could do.

Coinciding with this agitation phase, is the pioneering efforts of renewable energy, but that takes a great deal of time we do not have.

Every year these last 5 years has exceeded the prior years in high temperatures. If a future energy source technology arrives it better do so immediately.


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Subject: RE: climate crisis - how do we go from here?
From: Iains
Date: 23 Sep 19 - 12:04 PM

Donuel you may well be correct but I do not believe the science is as settled as the media would have you believe.


https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/earth-and-planetary-sciences/medieval-warm-period
I am more than a little sceptical. Politics is driving the science and funding the results.


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Subject: RE: climate crisis - how do we go from here?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 23 Sep 19 - 01:00 PM

The protesters are well meaning idiots.

IF climate change is controlled my our actions ( a very debatable point, but no-one listens to facts here - re analysis of climate models presently being used, solar variability and historical trends)) it would make a LOT more sense to try and SAVE the people threatened by said change than to try and stop it- IT HAS ALREADY passed beyond simple correction by ANY amount of CO2 reduction. ( see methane release from polar regions et al)

But it is MUCH easier for Politicians to just say "Do what I tell you and everything will be ok" than to actually move people away from regions impacted by sea level rise or climate shift, and redistribute food production instead of money ( that just flows into the said politician's pockets) All that land that WAS tundra could now be breadbasket- but that would take an effort that no-one wants to make. Far better to get rid of all private transportation, and let the government decide where ( we get to go ( and who can go there.)

The idea that ANY beef production ( or dairy) can be sustained ( given the methane produced ) while calling for the draconian CO2 reductions ( and THEIR impact on the environment AND human lives) is a fantasy.


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Subject: RE: climate crisis - how do we go from here?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 23 Sep 19 - 01:17 PM

The ONLY method that mankind presently has to CHANGE the present climate trend is a good, old fashioned nuclear winter- and that takes care of the excess population as well.


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Subject: RE: climate crisis - how do we go from here?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 23 Sep 19 - 01:24 PM

Why are you even discussing Dr. Mann? There's way more going on in that tempestuous teapot than you can use here to suggest climate change doesn't really exist. In his own field Mann has been largely discredited (though the AAAS seems to like his outreach attempts); he's right up there with the British doctor who suggested (with no evidence) that vaccines cause autism. He has a tight reign on his own publicity and clearly monitors the Wikipedia page about himself. He seems to be protecting his brand, he isn't contributing to science.

Now try looking at the 97% of scientists who acknowledge that climate change has sped up due to human activity.

Easterbrook:
Oxygen isotope studies in Greenland, Ireland, Germany, Switzerland, Tibet, China, New Zealand, and elsewhere, plus tree-ring data from many sites around the world all confirm the presence of a global Medieval Warm Period.

The Hockey Stick Trick
Over a period of many decades, several thousand papers were published establishing the Medieval Warm Period (MWP) from about 900 A.D. to 1300 A.D. and the Little Ice Age (LIA) from about 1300 A.D. to 1915 A.D. as global climate changes. Thus, it came as quite a surprise when Mann et al. (1998) (Fig. 28) concluded that neither the MWP nor the Little Ice Age actually happened on the basis of a tree-ring study and that became the official position of the 2001 Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC).


Mann appears to have tried for a paradigm shift, but it backfired and scientists resumed doing real science and paid attention to studies that show actual facts.

The contrived elimination of the MWP and Little Ice Age by Mann et al. became known as “the hockey stick” of climate change where the handle of the hockey stick was supposed to represent constant climate until increasing CO2 levels caused global warming, the sharp bend in the lower hockey stick.

The Mann et al. “hockey stick” temperature curve was at so at odds with thousands of published papers, including the Greenland GRIP ice core isotope data, sea surface temperatures in the Sargasso Sea sediments (Fig. 29) (Keigwin, 1996), paleo-temperature data other than tree rings (Fig. 30) (Loehle, 2007), and sea surface temperatures near Iceland (Fig. 31) (Sicre et al., 2008) one can only wonder how a single tree-ring study could purport to prevail over such a huge amount of data. At best, if the tree-ring study did not accord with so much other data, it should simply mean that the tree rings were not sensitive to climate change, not that all the other data were wrong. McIntyre and McKitrick (2003, 2005) evaluated the data in the Mann paper and concluded that the Mann curve was invalid “due to collation errors, unjustifiable truncation or extrapolation of source data, obsolete data, geographical location errors, incorrect calculation of principal components and other quality control defects”. Thus, the “hockey stick” concept of global climate change is now widely considered totally invalid and an embarrassment to the IPCC.

Why, then, did Mann's hockey stick persuade so many non-scientists and gain such widespread circulation? The answer is apparent in revelations from e-mails disclosed in the Climategate scandal (Mosher and Fuller, 2010; Montford, 2010). These e-mails describe how they tried to “hide the decline” in temperatures, using various “tricks” in order to perpetuate a dogmatic view of anthropogenic global warming.

With this kind of friend, Mann or Easterbrook, climate scientists don't need enemies. Scientists didn't need to deny previous cool spells in order for climate change to be accepted as real. We understand that there are lots of factors that have warmed and cooled the planet over billions of years, but we all understand that human pollution is as bad or worse than the explosion of a supervolcano for super-charging the atmosphere.


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Subject: RE: climate crisis - how do we go from here?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 23 Sep 19 - 01:30 PM

Stop the name calling. We assume, when that's all you have left to deploy, is that you have nothing.


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Subject: RE: climate crisis - how do we go from here?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 23 Sep 19 - 01:40 PM

https://heated.world/p/bird-man-cries-wolf


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Subject: RE: climate crisis - how do we go from here?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 23 Sep 19 - 04:02 PM

"Over a period of many decades, several thousand papers were published establishing the Medieval Warm Period (MWP) from about 900 A.D. to 1300 A.D. and the Little Ice Age (LIA) from about 1300 A.D. to 1915 A.D. as global climate changes."

So obviously we are NOW entering a period of warming, REGARDLESS of Man.


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Subject: RE: climate crisis - how do we go from here?
From: Iains
Date: 23 Sep 19 - 04:02 PM

but we all understand that human pollution is as bad or worse than the explosion of a supervolcano for super-charging the atmosphere.

The jury is still out on that statement. You also overlook the importance of timescale.
"If yellowstone erupted (or more accurately when)for volcanologists, the biggest worry is prevaiing wind and ash distribution. A circle about 500 miles (800 kilometers) across surrounding Yellowstone might see more than 4 inches (10 centimeters) of ash on the ground, scientists reported( Aug. 27, 2014, in the journal Geochemistry, Geophysics, Geosystems.)

The ash would be pretty devastating for the United States, scientists predict. The fallout would include short-term destruction of Midwest agriculture, and rivers and streams would be clogged .
People living in the Pacific Northwest might also be choking on Yellowstone's fallout.

"People who live upwind from eruptions need to be concerned about the big ones," said Larry Mastin, a USGS volcanologist and lead author of the 2014 ash study. Big eruptions often spawn giant umbrella clouds that push ash upwind across half the continent, Mastin said. These clouds get their name because the broad, flat cloud hovering over the volcano resembles an umbrella. "An umbrella cloud fundamentally changes how ash is distributed," Mastin said."
Yellowstone Volcano's next supereruption is likely to emit vast quantities of gases such as sulfur dioxide, which forms a sulfur aerosol that absorbs sunlight and reflects some of it back to space. The resulting climate cooling could last up to a decade. The temporary climate shift could alter rainfall patterns, and, along with severe frosts, cause widespread crop losses and famine.
These events outlined, although largely conjectural, would have an immediate undeniable impact. The only real question is the extent of the ash, the duration and extent of the impact on climate, That these events would occur is inevitable, the uncertainty is the severity.
Just as well the Snowdonia supervolcano in Wales is extinct.
Krakatoa was a smaller event yet killed up to 130000 people and Average global temperatures fell by as much as 1.2 °C (2.2 °F) in the year following the eruption. Weather patterns continued to be chaotic for years and temperatures did not return to normal until 1888.


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Subject: RE: climate crisis - how do we go from here?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 23 Sep 19 - 04:08 PM

No, the jury it isn't "still out." Only in your opinion. The ash eventually clears the air, the ozone and the CO2 remain, and the http://350.org site will offer you tons of science to prove this.


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Subject: RE: climate crisis - how do we go from here?
From: Bill D
Date: 23 Sep 19 - 04:09 PM

Over hundreds of thousands of years, there HAVE been warm periods and periods of glaciers. Those who cite such an obvious fact as denial of the effect that billions of humans with coal & oil digging & burning and lumbering and burning and mechanized fishing...etc... can have are just wearing blinders to avoid what they don't like to think about.
   "Senator Snowball" of Oklahoma personified that attitude by his stupid confusion of "current weather where he was" to international climate.

It is complicated to prove one way or another that 'it is too late to do anything'............. but I will tell you that ANY progress in cutting back on fossil fuels and stopping the destruction of the world's rain forests and banning many pesticides and altering fishing habits....yes... and slowing population growth WILL be better than what we are doing now. IF we don't make the effort, it WILL one day be too late. I am old enough I will 'probably' not see the inevitable panic, but when Florida is half submerged and Mexico is like Saudi Arabia and penguins can barely find nesting places in Antarctica, I don't want decide how... or whether... to defend my house. My son may need to...


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Subject: RE: climate crisis - how do we go from here?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 23 Sep 19 - 04:12 PM

Iains,

You are not taking into account the megatons of gasses such as CO2 released. When I was EO1 Data Manager, we watched the plumes from two eruptions in less than one year that each exceeded the CO2 release by man for the century.

Couldn't POSSIBLY have had an effect on climate change, that is KNOWN to be entirely Man's fault (NOT).


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Subject: RE: climate crisis - how do we go from here?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 23 Sep 19 - 04:14 PM

Where are your citations for this?


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Subject: RE: climate crisis - how do we go from here?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 23 Sep 19 - 04:16 PM

You have not asked for ANY citations from those you agree with.

Why should I bother giving them to a person who has stated she will not accept ANY data that she does not apriori agree with?


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Subject: RE: climate crisis - how do we go from here?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Sep 19 - 06:05 PM

I saw a little girl shaming world leaders. Then I saw an arrogant, petulant big-baby Trump blanking her as he walked through the room, studiously keeping his back to her. Those images won't be going away any time soon.


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Subject: RE: climate crisis - how do we go from here?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 23 Sep 19 - 06:20 PM

Bruce. Don't PM me. Anything you want to say can be said in the open. You still haven't explained who you believe we should be listening to. Greta Thurnburg or Donald Trump? Climate scientists or religious fundementalists?


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Subject: RE: climate crisis - how do we go from here?
From: Donuel
Date: 23 Sep 19 - 09:45 PM

there's a man
goin round
takin names

Johnny Cash


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Subject: RE: climate crisis - how do we go from here?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 23 Sep 19 - 09:46 PM

My recreating existing arguments to explain to you is a waste of my time. When articles that make sense are posted I read them. If they're clearly hackneyed opinion, I presume you're not interested in discussion, merely in disruption, and I move on.

If you want to discuss this topic, fine. The back-and-forth nonsense goes, criticisms of moderation never stay in any threads, and bickering is deleted. Keep track if you want, it's your computer space to waste.

If you don't believe this is a climate crisis, and don't want to discuss where scientists and rational people want to go from here, then why are you on this thread? Mossback had it right, before he was deleted.


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Subject: RE: climate crisis - how do we go from here?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Sep 19 - 05:52 AM

Don't know if anybody saw Greta the Great speak at the UN yesterday
Her obvious passionate concern was really something, but the look of contempt she gave Trump as he entered the chamber was worth a million words
"When I was aye but sweet sixteen"
"WHEN I WAS AYE BUT SWEET SIXTEEN" - if only !!
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: climate crisis - how do we go from here?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Sep 19 - 06:44 AM

I've just noticed the sickening thread opened by obvios Trump supporters attacking this young campaigner
More child abuse
Jim Carroll

That was the old mudcat troll putting on many hats and naming them for deceased or fake mudcat accounts.


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Subject: RE: climate crisis - how do we go from here?
From: Iains
Date: 24 Sep 19 - 08:00 AM

A supervolcano by definition implies a volcanic center that has had an eruption of magnitude 8 on the Volcano Explosivity Index (VEI), meaning that at one point in time it erupted more than 1,000 cubic kilometers (240 cubic miles) of material. Eruptions of that size generally create a circular collapse feature called a caldera.

The largest eruption at Yellowstone (2.1 million years ago) had a volume of 2,450 cubic kilometers. The impact of such an eruption is not my opinion. It is that of the USGS. Eruptions this large can create their own continental- scale wind field, pushing ash more than 1,000 km against the prevailing, ambient wind field. By contrast Krakatoa only produced 4.3 cubic miles of ejecta. The USGS has the opinion that such eruptions occur over days or weeks. This would require evacuation of people statewide from those areas most heavily impacted. Depending on whether a warning period allowed a response or not, the casualty rate could be horrendous, along with significant
climate change for years or decades. Humanity has not experienced anything close to compare it with.
The climate change postulated by manmade C02 emissions has been in train since England precipitated the Industrial revolution. The dire warnings of anthropogenic climate change are still a reality for the future. As you state the ash eventually falls and wipes out agriculture for years where the ashfall is thickest, andwhile in the upper atmosphere the ash modifies climate dramatically. It is no consolation it eventually falls if famine has devastated the landscape in the interim. As I said earlier, you overlook the importance of timescale. Anthopogenic climate change started several hundred years ago, it's major impacts are in the future. If yellowstone goes bang the impacts is immediate.

https://www.usgs.gov/media/videos/forecasting-ashfall-impacts-a-yellowstone-supereruption


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Subject: RE: climate crisis - how do we go from here?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Sep 19 - 09:59 AM

"there's a man
goin round
takin names

Johnny Cash"

I first heard that as a Negro spiritual on a Jessie Norman LP in the 80s. It's on YouTube.


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Subject: RE: climate crisis - how do we go from here?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 24 Sep 19 - 12:00 PM

Scientific Consensus: Earth's Climate is Warming

Multiple studies published in peer-reviewed scientific journals1 show that 97 percent or more of actively publishing climate scientists agree*: Climate-warming trends over the past century are extremely likely due to human activities. In addition, most of the leading scientific organizations worldwide have issued public statements endorsing this position. The following is a partial list of these organizations, along with links to their published statements and a selection of related resources.


The most recent date in here is 2015, so the science has been muzzled by the current Flat Earth presidency, but is plenty current enough for this conversation.

NASA always trumps the protests posed by skeptics.


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Subject: RE: climate crisis - how do we go from here?
From: Iains
Date: 24 Sep 19 - 12:52 PM

NASA always trumps the protests posed by skeptics. REALLY????? on what basis would that be?


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Subject: RE: climate crisis - how do we go from here?
From: Mossback
Date: 24 Sep 19 - 01:13 PM

Mossback had it right, before he was deleted.

Why thank you, Milady

There is no upside to attempting to engage reality deniers.


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Subject: RE: climate crisis - how do we go from here?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Sep 19 - 01:40 PM

Toujours la politesse, Bill! :-)

Your graph, SRS, is an absolutely lovely match for the increase in atmospheric CO2 graph. I'm doing a curry right now but I'll try to find a reference to it when I have a minute. It isn't proof but it's evidence.


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Subject: RE: climate crisis - how do we go from here?
From: Bill D
Date: 24 Sep 19 - 06:30 PM

I don't read French, but Google suggests that's not a criticism...


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Subject: RE: climate crisis - how do we go from here?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Sep 19 - 07:26 PM

It was a compliment. Feel free to accept it for yourself, Bill, thoroughly appropriate as applied to you, but I actually meant Mossback! It's a mantra remembered from my French lessons of over half a century ago, referring to the need to use the polite "vous," not the informal "tu," when addressing anyone with whom you shouldn't really be over-familiar. Maybe the Pope or the headmaster.


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Subject: RE: climate crisis - how do we go from here?
From: Bill D
Date: 24 Sep 19 - 10:20 PM

Well then... onward..


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Subject: RE: climate crisis - how do we go from here?
From: Mr Red
Date: 25 Sep 19 - 05:41 AM

That hockey stick that deniers laugh at.

Let me see where else could we find it?
Migratory birds over-wintering - used to happen, now even non-twitcher can see it happening.
Spring arriving earlier. Autumn later.
Storm getting more frequent (forget thresholds for words, storms are stronger and more frequent at every arbitrary threshold).
Power generation.
number of cars/trucks built.
number of plane journeys.
population.
need for the Thames barrage.
etc etc.

Somewhwere in there is cause & effect.

You know when I wus a practicing enjuneer, I never, not, nohow solved a problem by denying its existence. Now I program PCs & Websites and - well you can imagine - denial ain't gonna cut it. Unless you are Apple (first class deniers) - give them a denial year to come clean about their software bugs. Be kind to them, they believe their own hype!

It doesn't fucking matter who caused the problem, JUST GET ON AND FIX IT, Stupid.


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Subject: RE: climate crisis - how do we go from here?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 25 Sep 19 - 05:53 AM

It does matter though, Mr Red. Using your computer analogy. I was an infrastructure engineer and Unix admin. People would complain that their application was running slowly so we tuned the OS kernel, increased the memory and processing power, upgraded the network and SAN and guess what? It was a piece of shit programming or, more often, a badly administered database. It was usually the software providers in denial. The moral? Make sure you are fixing the right problem!


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Subject: RE: climate crisis - how do we go from here?
From: Mr Red
Date: 26 Sep 19 - 04:53 AM

If fixing it ain't fixing it, you ain't fixing it!

Problem solving is an iterative methodology. Or should be.

1) Analyse,
2) try,
3) analyse
4) IF stillbuggered THEN GO TO 1)
5) Coffee (or in day gone by - cigarette)

There are two prongs to solving Global Weirding

1) Change people (best of luck, but ya gotta try)
2) Mitigation. But as I said "We ain't gonna like the............."

Soilent Green? Long Pig anyone?


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Subject: RE: climate crisis - how do we go from here?
From: Iains
Date: 26 Sep 19 - 05:27 AM

The first graph below is the real problem. But no one has the courage to talk about it.


https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/total-world-population-comparison-of-different-sources?time=-10000..2000&country=HYDE%203.1+K


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Subject: RE: climate crisis - how do we go from here?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 28 Sep 19 - 05:02 PM

You must have completely missed the sixties and seventies.

Population Bomb. 1971, Paul Erlich.


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Subject: RE: climate crisis - how do we go from here?
From: Mr Red
Date: 30 Sep 19 - 03:47 AM

There are those that reckon the world population will top out @ (OK lets be scientific, asymptotic to) 9 billion because..............

As the third world gets richer they will not need such big families.

Which, of course, ignores the old consumption v global weirding dimension.

termite flambé anyone?


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Subject: RE: climate crisis - how do we go from here?
From: Iains
Date: 30 Sep 19 - 05:40 AM

Original
From: Stilly River Sage - PM
Date: 28 Sep 19 - 05:02 PM

You must have completely missed the sixties and seventies.


EDITED POST
From: Stilly River Sage - PM
Date: 28 Sep 19 - 05:02 PM

You must have completely missed the sixties and seventies.

Population Bomb. 1971, Paul Erlich.

Why could you not simply say you had overlooked pasting the link?

I queried the original post. It has been deleted and you retroactively edited your original post.
Why not simply admit to making a mistake?

I am very familiar with Erlich's work and also that of the club of Rome and Limits to growth. I have also read works by John Seymour and Patrick Rivers(I bought an AngloNubian goat off him 40 years ago)I also have to claim having watched the good life, although I left my flat In Surbiton some years before the series started.
Their time frame may have been totally wrong but when exponential growth collides with finite resources the inevitable result is a massive contraction. It is a circle that cannot be squared.
This does not even begin to consider the feed back mechanisms set in train.
Deforestation
The projected weakening of AMOC due to increased ice melt and subsequent dilution of oceanic salt in the arctic regions
projected sea level rises due to a warming ocean and accentuated by ice melt.
Climate change
pollution
This of course assumes a contributory anthropogenic component, although in a crowded world natural climatic oscillations, such as caused the little ice age and medieval warm period, would create havoc
The underlying problem always comes back to too many people.
If everyone in the world had the same profligate lifestyle as the average American I think the limits to growth would become blindingly obvious within a very short space of time.
From the Worldwatch Institute:
    The United States, with less than 5% of the global population, uses about a quarter of the world’s fossil fuel resources—burning up nearly 25% of the coal, 26% of the oil, and 27% of the world’s natural gas.
    As of 2003, the U.S. had more private cars than licensed drivers,
    New houses in the U.S. were 38% bigger in 2002 than in 1975, despite having fewer people per household on average.
“If the levels of consumption that...the most affluent people enjoy today were replicated across even half of the roughly 9 billion people projected to be on the planet in 2050, the impact on our water supply, air quality, forests, climate, biological diversity, and human health would be severe.”

Today’s human economies are designed with little attention to the residuals of production and consumption. Among the most visible unintended byproducts of the current economic system are environmental problems like air and water pollution and landscape degradation. Nearly all the world’s ecosystems are shrinking to make way for humans and their homes, farms, malls, and factories. WWF’s Living Planet Index, which measures the health of forests, oceans, freshwater, and other natural systems, shows a 35 percent decline in Earth’s ecological health since 1970.

Essentially we are in an ongoing race between man's ingenuity and stupidity. Stupidity is one day going to be the winner unless we are very lucky.


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Subject: RE: climate crisis - how do we go from here?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 30 Sep 19 - 06:36 AM

Good time to remind people that nothing is more important than the future of the planet. Yes, massive changes need to happen and yes an increasing population is an issue but it everyone slows down the use of resources and emission of co2 we can all help to get some breathing space for those big changes. As individuals we may not be able to solve the problem but we can -

Reduce.   Stop wasting energy.
Reuse.    Don't throw it away if someone else can use or repurpose it.
Recycle. For what can't be reused.

Ignore the nay-sayers and petty point pinchers. Do your bit!


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Subject: RE: climate crisis - how do we go from here?
From: Iains
Date: 30 Sep 19 - 05:12 PM

It tends to be overlooked that climate change has impacted civilisations in the past. In no particular order:

Around 900 CE, things started to go wrong for the Mayans. Overpopulation put too great a strain on resources. Increased competition for resources was bringing the Maya into violent conflict with other nations. An extensive period of drought sounded the death-knell, ruining crops and cutting off drinking water supplies.
More than 4,000 years ago in Mesopotamia – the area currently made up of Iraq, north-east Syria and south-east Turkey – the Akkadian empire ruled supreme. Until a 300-year-long drought quite literally turned all their plans to dust.
the Khmer empire of south-east Asia, which flourished between 802 and 1431 CE. It too was brought down by drought, interspersed with violent monsoon rains, against the backdrop of a changing climate.
Even the Viking settlers of Greenland, in the far north Atlantic, are believed to have been affected by climate change. Some 5,000 settlers made the island their home for around 500 years. But they may have had their way of life disrupted by climate change. Temperatures dropped, reducing substantially the productivity of their farms and making it harder to raise livestock. They adapted their eating habits, turning their attention to the sea as a source of food. But life on Greenland became unbearably difficult, leading to the eventual abandonment of the island colony.
The rapid decline of the Anasazi empire in the SW of the US is most widely regarded as being due a great drought, which brought on famine, a theory which would be consistent with archaeological findings of skeletons showing signs of malnutrition, and the abundance of infant and children’s bones.

The link below is quite interesting on the evolution of both the data and interpretation.
https://leilan.yale.edu/sites/default/files/publications/article-specific/weiss_2017_megadrought_collapse_and_causality.pdf

and an interesting wiki article but a bit sparse on sources(unfortunately)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Climate_oscillation
If you follow these arguments in depth you realize there are uncertainties in the science but one idea to take away is that if human numbers overwhelm resources the outcome has always been collapse. The frequency of famines in history shows that collapse is never that far away, and the link below should give pause for thought.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Famine#Risk_of_future_famine


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Subject: RE: climate crisis - how do we go from here?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 30 Sep 19 - 05:29 PM

True, Iains, but humans did little to bring about those climate changes. We can blame those on nature, but it's quite clear that human industry is the cause of this current, very rapid climate change.
-Joe-


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Subject: RE: climate crisis - how do we go from here?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Sep 19 - 06:55 PM

And round and round and round we go...

The correlation between the warming of land and sea in both hemispheres and the increase in atmospheric carbon dioxide over the last century and a half is near perfect. A correlation, even a strong one, is not proof, but it is exceptionally powerful evidence, particularly in light of the fact that we know precisely how carbon dioxide operates as a greenhouse gas. To deny that human activity hasn't been a major driver, or even the main driver, of warming is akin to denying that China exists or claiming that there's no salt in the oceans. If you choose to deny it, you are either in the pocket of powerful carbon corporations or you are a fool who thinks that standing out from the crowd by being different just for the sake of it makes you look clever. When we say the science is settled we are not saying that anthropogenic warming is true, because science doesn't work that way. We are saying the probability of its being false is so small as to make it negligible. And to deny it for either of those reasons makes you wicked, because your deliberate ignorance or crass dishonesty is contributing recklessly to increasing a mortal threat to the planet.

But there's always one, as we shall no doubt shortly see...


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Subject: RE: climate crisis - how do we go from here?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Sep 19 - 06:58 PM

To be clear, I was referring to air temperatures measured (at thousands of locations) over land and sea in both hemispheres.


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Subject: RE: climate crisis - how do we go from here?
From: Donuel
Date: 30 Sep 19 - 10:44 PM

Contrary to scientific evidence we will not be killed by climate change by human hands alone. We will suffocate from the unknown sources of methane and CO2 we do not and can not anticipate.

When these factors occur we will be hundreds if not thousands of years beyond the tipping point.

We were caught flat footed by the melting tundra for example.
Another unanticipated possibility would be a nickel rich eruption in which bacteria that converts nickel to methane would then deliver the final blow to a run away climate catastrophe.

Possibilities known or not will always be possible. Heroic Human efforts will be to little too late but don't let me stop your Pollyana Party.


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Subject: RE: climate crisis - how do we go from here?
From: Donuel
Date: 30 Sep 19 - 11:03 PM

We have always struggled to control our destiny but though we think we may have succeded, fate has the final word.


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Subject: RE: climate crisis - how do we go from here?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 01 Oct 19 - 02:51 AM

Donuel. The unknown is always a possibility but it is no reason to stop any attempts to correct what we do know to be an issue. There is no Pollyanna in trying to reduce co2 emissions or address any other climate change issues.


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Subject: RE: climate crisis - how do we go from here?
From: Donuel
Date: 01 Oct 19 - 09:24 AM

good times
end times
as events grow worse
we all know we're
breathing the curse
We passed the critical point long ago
doing something instead of nothing
feels more hopeful I know
We won't see the death in the deep blue sea
or all the children that will die.
Perhaps we should
We will be able to say
we did what we could

stiff upper lip chap


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Subject: RE: climate crisis - how do we go from here?
From: gillymor
Date: 01 Oct 19 - 09:37 AM

Perhaps you should take some time out for reflection, donuel, rather than post lame, useless anti-human poetry(?).


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Subject: RE: climate crisis - how do we go from here?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 01 Oct 19 - 10:35 AM

gillymor, many nations of the world are suffering from rising waters and melting ice. A poem that suggests the view from Colonial or First World powers is exactly what is needed here. Contrary to your observation, it represents a great deal of reflection and is not lame. At. All.


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Subject: RE: climate crisis - how do we go from here?
From: gillymor
Date: 01 Oct 19 - 10:54 AM

I've reread that last one and it's hard for me to tell what perspective was represented. If I've misinterpreted your intentions I apologize, Donuel, if not I don't.


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Subject: RE: climate crisis - how do we go from here?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 Oct 19 - 11:02 AM

"Another unanticipated possibility would be a nickel rich eruption in which bacteria that converts nickel to methane would then deliver the final blow to a run away climate catastrophe."

Dunno about him and his poetry, but the above is total bollix. Nickel is a metallic element with one kind of atom. Ni. Methane is a molecular gas made of nothing but carbon and hydrogen atoms. C and H.   Not exactly interchangeable, huh, even by very very very clever bacteria.


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Subject: RE: climate crisis - how do we go from here?
From: Donuel
Date: 01 Oct 19 - 03:19 PM

Its a new explanation/theory for the extinctions arising from the Russian traps eruption Steve. The bacteria exist but its still just a theory I used as an example. Stupidity and greed we already know but we don't know the unknown. Whether we are guessing the next flu vaccine or budgeting for a hurricane season its all guesswork.

Who knows maybe we could democratically end the fossil fuel foolery and spend our budget on carbon capture and clean solar, wind and fusion. But would it be enough? I don't know for certain.

I'm sure if I took Oxy like the Trump base I would be less concerned and more hopeful. As for my musings, they are somewhere between genius and moronic. Its not worth caring about and taking any offense is just a figment of the conscious mind. There is a more important mind.


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Subject: RE: climate crisis - how do we go from here?
From: Donuel
Date: 01 Oct 19 - 03:37 PM

I still like the song 'Always look on the bright side of life'
'Always' is just very hard to do.


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Subject: RE: climate crisis - how do we go from here?
From: gillymor
Date: 01 Oct 19 - 03:48 PM

When I consider sentences like "Heroic Human efforts will be to little too late but don't let me stop your Pollyana Party.", I'd say it's leaning more toward the moronic end of the spectrum, but no offense, Don, I know you're a good guy and that you can handle a bit of criticism.


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Subject: RE: climate crisis - how do we go from here?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 Oct 19 - 05:47 PM

And your poetry may well be lovely but nickel cannot be transformed into methane. What we really don't need in a climate change thread is bullshit.


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Subject: RE: climate crisis - how do we go from here?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 01 Oct 19 - 06:13 PM

Mr Shaw,
Try reading what is said instead of putting into your own terms'

" Nickel-eating bacteria may have worsened the world's worst mass die-off by producing huge amounts of methane, a new study suggests.

The study is the latest attempt to explain how most of the world's ocean species died off in just a few hundred thousand years at the end of the Permian era, about 250 million years ago. The researchers presented their findings Tuesday here at the annual meeting of the American Geophysical Union.

The study proposes that a series of steps caused the mass extinction, but that bacteria played a key role. First, massive volcanic activity in Siberia released nickel into the atmosphere, which somehow reached the ocean. As a result, populations of ocean-dwelling bacteria that use nickel in their metabolic pathway exploded, releasing huge amounts of methane into the atmosphere and depleting ocean oxygen levels as a byproduct of that metabolism. Because methane is a greenhouse gas, the catastrophic gas release trapped heat in the atmosphere and caused the mass extinction by making the climate uninhabitable.

But while the findings are intriguing, many of the steps in this process are speculative, said Anthony Cohen, a researcher at the Open University in the United Kingdom, who was not involved in the study. [ Wipe Out: History's Most Mysterious Extinctions ]

"There are a lot of assumptions you have to make," Cohen told LiveScience.

For instance, it's not clear how the huge nickel deposited in lava flows in Siberia could have made it into seawater around the globe, he said.

The Great Dying
During " The Great Dying," up to 90 percent of the world's species perished. Though no one knows exactly how the mass die-off occurred, fossil records suggest gradual changes like ocean acidification and lessening atmospheric and oceanic oxygen first killed off species slowly, and cataclysmic volcanic eruptions or asteroid impacts then quickly wiped out the vast majority of life.

Another theory holds that vast troves of the greenhouse gas methane, which are normally trapped beneath the seafloor, were released from the ocean rapidly, causing apocalyptic levels of global warming.

Methane explosion
But just what caused that massive methane release remained a mystery. Daniel Rothman, a researcher at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology, and his colleagues wondered whether ocean-dwelling bacteria that churn out methane were the culprits.

His team found through genetic analysis that bacteria called methanosarcina evolved the ability to break down nickel and make methane as part of its metabolism about 251 million years ago. The bacteria may have exploded in population, thereby releasing the ocean's vast methane reserves. And because the bacteria add an oxygen molecule to methane during metabolism, an exponential rise in methanosarcina may have catastrophically depleted ocean oxygen levels.

But in order for methanosarcina to rapidly reproduce, the population would need a huge source of nickel.

Volcanoes fuel extinction
Around the same time, cataclysmic volcanic activity at the Siberian Traps in Norilsk, Russia, spewed up to 2.7 million square miles (7 million square kilometers) of nickel-rich lava.

"The world's largest nickel deposits are in Siberia," Rothman said during the AGU conference. "They are there as a result of Siberian volcanism around 252 million years ago." [ Watch Live: Latest News from 2012 AGU Meeting ]

So the bonanza of nickel needed to spur a population explosion in methanosarcina likely came from the Siberian Traps. If that's the case, then catastrophic volcanoes and methane-making bacteria may have combined to cause the world's worst extinction event.

Though many of the study's proposed causes for the Permian extinction are familiar, it does provide a new timeline of events, Cohen said.

"Quite a lot of the ideas have been around for a long time. It's just putting them together."

http://www.nbcnews.com/id/50088913/ns/technology_and_science-science/t/nickel-eating-bacteria-blamed-worlds-worst-extinction/#.X


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Subject: RE: climate crisis - how do we go from here?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 Oct 19 - 08:37 PM

Bejaysus I can read all right, and this is what I read:


"bacteria that converts nickel to methane..."


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Subject: RE: climate crisis - how do we go from here?
From: Mossback
Date: 01 Oct 19 - 09:14 PM

Hi, Steve-

Remember post Date: 24 Sep 19 - 01:13 PM


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Subject: RE: climate crisis - how do we go from here?
From: Donuel
Date: 02 Oct 19 - 11:23 AM

Oh hell Steve, there is even bacteria that can metabolize another metal called Arsenic. There are iron eating microbes in Antarctica that stain snow red. There is even bacteria that subtitutes Arsenic for potassium in its DNA. Life itself is a tough little bugger.
These facts are unknown to you so you react in a predictable way.
-or- there are more things in heaven or Earth Horatio...

I don't play the game of I am right and you are wrong anymore. Polite humility is often best. If you can't learn something new then by all means be happy that you are right. Sorry that sounded snarky.

My only simple and obvious point still remains that the unknown is a dangerous game changer.

I welcome criticism/reactions since I don't want to live in my own delusional bubble. Imagine Einstien's critics when he first said matter can be changed into energy or that gravity bends space.
Prove it, they said. Other people did it for him. I go further when I say a black hole has the means to change matter and energy into space/dark energy. I can't prove it but maybe others will.


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Subject: RE: climate crisis - how do we go from here?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Oct 19 - 11:51 AM

"Metabolising" a metal is not the same as weird quasi-alchemy. Nickel cannot be converted by bacteria to methane. Be told, will you?


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Subject: RE: climate crisis - how do we go from here?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 02 Oct 19 - 12:13 PM

Fine, Mr. Shaw.

Metabolises nickel, producing methane as a wast product. His comment is still valid


As the present "consensus is that the MODELS show that man-made effects are in control, perhaps you will consider that the MODEL is not as perfect as you seem to think.

The climate MODELS were run from 10 years to the present, to predict the actual temperature change. 95% of then were GREATER than the actual temperature change, as measured.
Just coincidence that the SOLAR FLUX has been trending DOWNWARD at
the time in question. Perhaps one might consider that the 10.7 cm solar flux AND IT'S EFFECT ON CLIMATE has NOT been modeled correctly, since the CO2 numbers can be made to fudge the formulas.

Then you could consider the changes over recent time ( decade or so) in both the Martian icecap and the Red Spot on Jupiter, both dependent of solar flux and NOT on man-made CO2 production.

The likelihood that man CAN reverse the climate change as seen is not as high as you seem to think. So efforts to reduce CO2 WHILE NOT TAKING THE NEEDED STEPS to move populations and deal with the EFFECTS of climate change is both a misuse of resources better spent saving lives, and a political powergrab.

As I stated, and SRS lied about, I do believe in climate change- I just do not think that the present efforts are of any use other than to push the real problem down the road, so that there is less time to deal with the effect of climate change, and a FAR greater loss of life.


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Subject: RE: climate crisis - how do we go from here?
From: Donuel
Date: 02 Oct 19 - 12:58 PM

"I just do not think that the present efforts are of any use other than to push the real problem down the road, so that there is less time to deal with the effect of climate change, and a FAR greater loss of life." bb

The sun cools yet Earth temps soar higher, don't you see a problem?
What are the present efforts?
What is the real problem?


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Subject: RE: climate crisis - how do we go from here?
From: Donuel
Date: 02 Oct 19 - 01:20 PM

I thought most would understand nickle 'eating' rather than saying nickle uptake...
The end-Permian extinction is associated with a mysterious disruption to Earth’s carbon cycle. Scientists identify causal mechanisms via three observations. First, they show that geochemical signals indicate superexponential growth of the marine inorganic carbon reservoir, coincident with the extinction and consistent with the expansion of a new microbial metabolic pathway. Second, they show that the efficient acetoclastic pathway in Methanosarcina emerged at a time statistically indistinguishable from the extinction. Finally, they show that nickel concentrations in South China sediments increased sharply at the extinction, probably as a consequence of massive Siberian volcanism, enabling a methanogenic expansion by removal of nickel limitation. Collectively, these results are consistent with the instigation of Earth’s greatest mass extinction by a specific microbial innovation.

I prefer the time saving metaphorical dumbed down succint rhetoric, 'nickel eating bacteria'


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Subject: RE: climate crisis - how do we go from here?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 02 Oct 19 - 01:36 PM

"The level of solar activity beginning in the 1940s is exceptional – the last period of similar magnitude occurred around 9,000 years ago (during the warm Boreal period).[7][8][9] The Sun was at a similarly high level of magnetic activity for only ~10% of the past 11,400 years. Almost all earlier high-activity periods were shorter than the present episode."


The last DECADE had reduced solar flux, and reality ( but NOT the climate models) reflect that.

But we are coming out of the Little Ice Age

"The Little Ice Age (LIA) was a period of cooling that occurred after the Medieval Warm Period.[1] Although it was not a true ice age, the term was introduced into scientific literature by François E. Matthes in 1939.[2] It has been conventionally defined as a period extending from the 16th to the 19th centuries,[3][4][5] but some experts prefer an alternative timespan from about 1300[6] to about 1850.[7][8][9]

The NASA Earth Observatory notes three particularly cold intervals: one beginning about 1650, another about 1770, and the last in 1850, all separated by intervals of slight warming.[5] The Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change Third Assessment Report considered the timing and areas affected by the Little Ice Age suggested largely independent regional climate changes rather than a globally synchronous increased glaciation. At most, there was modest cooling of the Northern Hemisphere during the period.[10]

Several causes have been proposed: cyclical lows in solar radiation, heightened volcanic activity, changes in the ocean circulation, variations in Earth's orbit and axial tilt (orbital forcing), inherent variability in global climate, and decreases in the human population (for example from the Black Death and the colonization of the Americas).[11]"

"In a 2012 paper, Miller et al. link the Little Ice Age to an "unusual 50-year-long episode with four large sulfur-rich explosive eruptions, each with global sulfate loading >60 Tg" and notes that "large changes in solar irradiance are not required."[6]

Throughout the Little Ice Age, the world experienced heightened volcanic activity.[85] When a volcano erupts, its ash reaches high into the atmosphere and can spread to cover the whole earth. The ash cloud blocks out some of the incoming solar radiation, leading to worldwide cooling that can last up to two years after an eruption. Also emitted by eruptions is sulfur, in the form of sulfur dioxide gas. When it reaches the stratosphere, it turns into sulfuric acid particles, which reflect the sun's rays, further reducing the amount of radiation reaching Earth's surface.

A recent study found that an especially massive tropical volcanic eruption in 1257, possibly of the now-extinct Mount Samalas near Mount Rinjani, both in Lombok, Indonesia, followed by three smaller eruptions in 1268, 1275, and 1284 did not allow the climate to recover. This may have caused the initial cooling, and the 1452–53 eruption of Kuwae in Vanuatu triggered a second pulse of cooling.[6] The cold summers can be maintained by sea-ice/ocean feedbacks long after volcanic aerosols are removed.

Other volcanoes that erupted during the era and may have contributed to the cooling include Billy Mitchell (ca. 1580), Huaynaputina (1600), Mount Parker (1641), Long Island (Papua New Guinea) (ca. 1660), and Laki (1783).[21] The 1815 eruption of Tambora, also in Indonesia, blanketed the atmosphere with ash; the following year, 1816, came to be known as the Year Without a Summer,[86] when frost and snow were reported in June and July in both New England and Northern Europe."



And remember the solar constant is +/- 2 %   See what model has that included.

" Scafetta and West,[45] who claimed that solar variability has a significant effect on climate forcing. Based on correlations between specific climate and solar forcing reconstructions, they argued that a "realistic climate scenario is the one described by a large preindustrial secular variability (e.g., the paleoclimate temperature reconstruction by Moberg et al.)[46] with TSI experiencing low secular variability (as the one shown by Wang et al.).[47] Under this scenario, they claimed the Sun might have contributed 50% of the observed global warming since 1900.[48] Stott et al. estimated that the residual effects of the prolonged high solar activity during the last 30 years account for between 16% and 36% of warming from 1950 to 1999."

And yes, the models include some solar effects, based on the 11 year cycles. HOWEVER:
"Periodicity of solar activity with periods longer than the sunspot cycle has been proposed,[5] including:

The 210 year Suess cycle[35] (a.k.a. "de Vries cycle", named after Hans Eduard Suess and Hessel De Vries respectively) is recorded from radiocarbon studies, although "little evidence of the Suess Cycle" appears in the 400-year sunspot record.[5]

The Hallstatt cycle (named after a cool and wet period in Europe when glaciers advanced) is hypothesized to extend for approximately 2,400 years.[40][41][42][43]

An as yet unnamed cycle may extend over 6,000 years.[44]

In carbon-14 cycles of 105, 131, 232, 385, 504, 805 and 2,241 years have been observed, possibly matching cycles derived from other sources.[45] Damon and Sonett[46] proposed carbon 14-based medium- and short-term variations of periods 208 and 88 years; as well as suggesting a 2300-year radiocarbon period that modulates the 208-year period.[47]

During the Upper Permian 240 million years ago, mineral layers created in the Castile Formation show cycles of 2,500 years."


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Subject: RE: climate crisis - how do we go from here?
From: Donuel
Date: 02 Oct 19 - 01:45 PM

Steve's wierd semi alchemy is merely Donuel's microbial innovation.
But he is right that you can not put nickel in a cow's digestive tract and expect to get methane. But who would do that? eew


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Subject: RE: climate crisis - how do we go from here?
From: Mossback
Date: 02 Oct 19 - 01:49 PM

For Mr. Bruce, an historical anecdote:

“ I beseech you, in the bowels of Christ, think it possible you may be mistaken.”
         Oliver Cromwell, letter to the general assembly of the Church of Scotland (3 August 1650)


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Subject: RE: climate crisis - how do we go from here?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Oct 19 - 02:30 PM

Not worth it here, Bill. We have here an arch-obscurantist who revels in incommunicado science and a bloke who thinks he's a mystic who misuses the language then can't back down. Somebody sensible might SAY something sensible about climate change soon. In plain and accurate English, preferably. I'm working on it. Until such times, I'm butting out.


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Subject: RE: climate crisis - how do we go from here?
From: Donuel
Date: 02 Oct 19 - 04:34 PM

I have told Mossback how I refer to a non dyslexic brain as linear in comparison to a dimensional dyslexic brain. There are some diadvantages to a dyslexic brain, as if to pay for other advantages like inventive neural connectedness. That disadvantage would indeed be language. Still some people seem to understand me perfectly well.
One might say one brain is not superior to another but differently abled.

I would never condemn Mr. Shaw for his incompacity to understand. Calling a person with a limp in public 'you bloody gimp' is what Mr. Shaw does in essence. That person with a limp may be more graceful, it depends upon who is judging. Why he thinks he needs to denigrate is a more important question. It is a question he will never ask.


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Subject: RE: climate crisis - how do we go from here?
From: Donuel
Date: 02 Oct 19 - 04:46 PM

Now as for climate change we can hope we will do everything possible including a bit of luck to avoid the runaway effect.
What stands in our way is the petroleum industry and that nearly every private vehicle and every vehicle of war like tanks and planes run on petroleum.


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Subject: RE: climate crisis - how do we go from here?
From: Mr Red
Date: 02 Oct 19 - 04:47 PM

Dunno about him and his poetry, but the above is total bollix. Nickel is a metallic element with one kind of atom. Ni. Methane is a molecular gas made of nothing but carbon and hydrogen atoms. C and H.   Not exactly interchangeable, huh, even by very very very clever bacteria.

Ever heard of a catalyst? I am not specifically aware that nickel (in context) is, but yes bacteria are clever in that they evolve a lot faster than us. Ask a scientist before discrediting the possibilities.

As Donald Rumsfeld said about unknown knowns - someone has probably observed something we did not! Or will convert your unknown unknown soon.

Someone posted recently, in this parish, about nickel rash, so it is not totally inert. and first on the web search is Nickel Catalysts


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Subject: RE: climate crisis - how do we go from here?
From: Donuel
Date: 02 Oct 19 - 05:21 PM

Mr. Red, Bastard that he is, Rumsfeld did come to mind. No not you Mr. Red, you're not a bastard. And if you are you're a damn fine one :^/

caution this is a thinking man's link


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Subject: RE: climate crisis - how do we go from here?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Oct 19 - 05:23 PM

I'm very disappointed with you, Mr Red. Yes I've heard of catalysts and I know what they do, thanks. Now why don't you tell us about those bacteria instead of semantically skirting around just to defend poor old Donuel? Somewhere, in some application or even in some living organism, there may well be a nickel catalyst that can produce methane from something else that contains carbon and hydrogen atoms. I'm actually not interested enough to look into it. I'll take your word, as long as you've told me that you've checked it out. But nothing I know of in the realms of science can convert nickel to methane. I'd love to say End Of, but I have three twisters and turners busting their guts to find fault with that somewhat bald truth. Now either I quit the thread or I question my own sanity. I think I'll take the former path...


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Subject: RE: climate crisis - how do we go from here?
From: Mossback
Date: 02 Oct 19 - 05:48 PM

You're right, Bruce - I messed up.

But What I NEED to do (and should have done) is ignore you completely.


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Subject: RE: climate crisis - how do we go from here?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 02 Oct 19 - 05:59 PM

feel free.


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Subject: RE: climate crisis - how do we go from here?
From: Iains
Date: 02 Oct 19 - 07:04 PM

Bejaysus I can read all right, and this is what I read:
"bacteria that converts nickel to methane..."

What the original scientific paper says is:
"The Siberian volcanoes could still be part of the story of the Permian Extinction Event, says Rothman. They were probably responsible for a sharp increase in nickel deposits that the authors found in ocean sediments from the time. In known methane-spewing microbes, the metal is a crucial component of enzymes involved in the reactions that produce the gas. The availability of nickel is in fact a limiting factor to these organisms' growth, so nickel from the volcanoes could have caused a runaway effect in Methanosarcina, says Rothman, and eventually death for other species."
Other papers suggest that increased temperatures diminished oxygen levels in the oceans and also increased metabolic rates of organisms leading to massive diebacks. Others suggest that whatever in the oceans was not killed by oxygen starvation were nobbled by green sulphur bacteria giving off hydrogen sulpide(0.1% in air will kill a human)
The explanation given for the Siberian Traps and associated vulcanicity is a mantle plume, which rose until it impacted against the bottom of the Earth's crust, producing volcanic eruptions through the Siberian Craton. It lasted less than 1 million years but left behind Earth's biggest "large igneous province," a pile of lava and other volcanic rocks about 720,000 cubic miles (3 million cubic kilometers) in volume.
The big unknown both then and today is the impact of feedback mechanisms.A few ideas below

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3357779/


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Subject: RE: climate crisis - how do we go from here?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Oct 19 - 07:22 PM

And yet (sword of truth here we go), no organism known to humankind can convert nickel to methane. Not even Lord Percy in Blackadder II could have done it. Were I able to CONVERT metals into substances with entirely different elements and with no trace of the original metal, I'd be as rich as Croesus. And a miracle worker.


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Subject: RE: climate crisis - how do we go from here?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Oct 19 - 07:28 PM

And, beardie, you seriously need to shut up about the mods. You come here, lazily spouting your bile/obscure shite (read post and delete as applicable), and they have to try to keep multiple threads on track and bellends like you under control. Show a little humility and a little dignity, why don't you.


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Subject: RE: climate crisis - how do we go from here?
From: Donuel
Date: 02 Oct 19 - 07:40 PM

Listen very carefully, no one is to stone anyone until I use the word 'nickel' to... wump bam bam boink wham

Its the Monty Python 50 year anniversary this week.


We are looking at an extinction event from the inside of an extinction event. We are about 1/3 of the way in to a near total extinction. If you are 50 or more you have seen it with your own eyes. If we are not part of the solution we are all part of the problem. Waitng for a Tech solution ignores the severe behavior changes that are required. For that reason alone I am skeptical
mankind has the will to change.


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Subject: RE: climate crisis - how do we go from here?
From: Iains
Date: 03 Oct 19 - 04:07 AM

As far as I can see the decay series of nickel48 to nickel80 do not produce hydrogen or carbon(Unfortunately )

If you care to reverse the process with hydrogen all sorts of things are possible but Humans would not want to be anywhere near


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Subject: RE: climate crisis - how do we go from here?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 03 Oct 19 - 11:34 AM

There are a lot of moving parts contributing to the climate crisis, and the resource extraction that goes into things like the Amazon grocery delivery bags is one we need to tackle sooner rather than later.

I was reading remarks on a thread elsewhere and one fellow complained that why bother with water bottles and straws when there are so many chip bags and drink cups and such that are plastic . . . I guess you take on the battles as you identify them. I don't buy single serving bags of chips, and it is possible to buy things like tortilla chips in wax-lined paper bags. There's a lot of plastic everywhere, but buying food in bulk is one answer (you can get reusable light mesh bags for grocery store use). It usually gets to the store in a larger package, often recyclable cardboard is involved.


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Subject: RE: climate crisis - how do we go from here?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Oct 19 - 12:31 PM

We're braced for Hurricane Lorenzo at present
Nuffin' to do with climate change of course, we had similar only last 1839
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: climate crisis - how do we go from here?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 03 Oct 19 - 01:41 PM

"Reading contemporary accounts, the impression is that if Ireland did not have such magnificent cliffs forming a barrier along our west coast, the entire country would simply have been engulfed by water."

I posted this story on Facebook yesterday: https://www.wunderground.com/cat6/Category-2-Lorenzo-Speeding-Towards-Wednesday-Blow-Azores-Islands

Wednesday, the Azores, Friday, Ireland.


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Subject: RE: climate crisis - how do we go from here?
From: Iains
Date: 03 Oct 19 - 02:26 PM

We had similar regularly. Ohelia 2017,then Ali,Bronough, Leslie, Adrian, Diana, Gabriel,Helena, Isias, Freya, Laura. All with winds recorded in excess of 90mph. What makes this storm potentially nasty is saturated ground and trees still in leaf(this evening). In coastal areas prevailing winds bank up water but we are also just coming off the crest of a spring tide, so storm surge coupled with high tide can cause havoc, besides extreme waves posing a danger. Right now the extreme SW seems to be diminishing but sea areas Rockall and Bailey are still building to storm force 10 and 11. Could be a wild night in the offing up north.


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Subject: RE: climate crisis - how do we go from here?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 05 Oct 19 - 02:49 AM

I don't think we can over emphasise the importance of changing everyone's mindset to help combat climate change. As SRS says there are many factors in play here. Maybe there are some we can do nothing about. Maybe, as Donuel says, something as yet unknown will play a part. Although I must point out that this could be bad or good! But none of this should stop us from changing what we can change for the better. Little steps are all it takes to get things rolling. Stop using plastic bags and switch off unused lights today. Get ready for bigger changes to come!


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Subject: RE: climate crisis - how do we go from here?
From: JHW
Date: 05 Oct 19 - 05:35 AM

We'll all be gone when it happens. Just keep re-arrangeing the deck chairs. What Iceberg?
Bit of a surprise that industrialisation was so short lived relative to the life of the Earth. Two hundred years of trains, a hundred years of cars and it's done for. Was nice while it lasted.


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Subject: RE: climate crisis - how do we go from here?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 05 Oct 19 - 09:22 AM

That seems to be Trump's view - heck with the future generations, this generation wants to keep making money, so remove all of the environmental regulations.

A future with lower carbon dioxide in the atmosphere will be different for everyone. Greta has made good points about the current generation in power not doing more, too busy arguing about if climate change exists (yes, it does) instead of how to address it now. At this rate, the next dominant species will pass through the remains of human settlements with solar panels on the roofs and and the lights still on but no one home.


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Subject: RE: climate crisis - how do we go from here?
From: Donuel
Date: 05 Oct 19 - 10:21 AM

Yes there is room for hope when all the stops are pulled and solar power is employed to maximum effect, when wasted energy in reduced and random breaks go our way. Fear is an ultimate motivator, so be very afraid.


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Subject: RE: climate crisis - how do we go from here?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 05 Oct 19 - 01:12 PM

It's far from rearranging the deck chairs. It's doing something positive. Little wonder that things are not changing as quickly as they should with that attitude. We have seen the iceberg and are doing our best to avoid it. Those who deny its existence are a dwindling minority. Those who know it's there and do nothing are part of the problem.


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Subject: RE: climate crisis - how do we go from here?
From: Donuel
Date: 05 Oct 19 - 02:54 PM

You have your canary in the coal mine and then you have your frog in the water of global warming...until it boils.

plant more trees. wildfires need to eat too.
burn the amazon. McDonalds needs more burgers
buy the new 12,000 HP Expedition. it gets an ounce per meter


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Subject: RE: climate crisis - how do we go from here?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Oct 19 - 10:53 AM

No more single-use plastic bags in the help-yourself fruit and veg in Sainsbury's. You can buy a reusable mesh bag instead for 30p. More of that will do me!


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Subject: RE: climate crisis - how do we go from here?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 06 Oct 19 - 11:22 AM

Bought a reusable string bag in Mossers yesterday. They are being trialed in 4 stores including Skipton. For £1 they are well worth it but Sainsbugs 30p ones sound a bargain!


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Subject: RE: climate crisis - how do we go from here?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 06 Oct 19 - 11:29 AM

You can buy canvas bags, nylon bags, ripstop (parachute) nylon that are reinforced, or a non-woven polyester-type bag just about anywhere around here these days. Grocery stores, bookstores, feed stores, clothing stores - they're branded so you pay a little bit then advertise a lot. The back seat of my car is full of them so when I head into a store I step to the back seat and pull out as many as I think I'll need.

When the groceries are in the house and the bags unpacked they are hung over the doorknob on the side door so they are carried back to the car next trip out. Repeat. And occasionally, throw them in the washer.

Meanwhile, posts that are added simply to start fights are destined to be removed, as are the responses. That applies around the site in general, to no one's surprise. Play nice.


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Subject: RE: climate crisis - how do we go from here?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Oct 19 - 12:45 PM

Yup. I have a bag bag full of bags for life and always containing a couple of super strong wine carriers (in case of unexpectedly-spotted 25%-off-six jobs). It lives in me car but there are always one or two slung over a chair in the kitchen.

Apologies for my reaction to that post. Greta Thunberg is brave and committed and I understand that her caring adults are solicitous for her wellbeing. She is breaking the law by not attending school 'tis true but, as far as I can make out, she is not actually in active conflict with the law. She is keeping up with her schoolwork and will return to school after a year out. Yes we can't all do that but, just for once, I think we can allow her to be the amazing exception that she is. Her teachers support her activism but say The Right Thing about her missing school, as they would. She doesn't alway say things the way I'd put them but in my view she's putting an awful lot of influential yet procrastinating adults to shame. The ones who troll her with ad hominems, the Piers Morgans of this world, merely diminish themselves.


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Subject: RE: climate crisis - how do we go from here?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 06 Oct 19 - 01:10 PM

That is called a "Gap Year." Understood on both sides of the pond.

Someone remarked about chip bags and such on a post about recycling water bottles, and there is a point - those mylar bags are a problem. The point of recycling the bottles is because at least the plastic can be reused. Another thing that became apparent, though wasn't mentioned in an essay I read today, is that most of these movements to recycle, to buy in bulk with your own containers, to not put everything in the landfill, is largely managed by and aimed at urban populations.

I lived out in the county for a few years when I was at the university, driving in 30 miles for classes. And when I had enough bags of separated glass and plastic on the porch I'd load them in the back of the pickup and drop them off at the campus recycle center. I was probably the only person on that end of the lake doing anything about recycling. They probably still don't recycle out there. They haul their own trash to the dump and everything goes in it. We really do need to look at some of these services the way the Rural Electrification program worked years ago - if you don't include everyone in the benefits of this society, those who are on the outside will lobby for it's destruction.


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Subject: RE: climate crisis - how do we go from here?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 06 Oct 19 - 01:39 PM

As I said earlier, recycle should be the third option. After reduce and re-use. Recycling is good and far preferable to wasting resources but reducing consumption should be the priority and reusing items removes the need to use energy recycling.


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Subject: RE: climate crisis - how do we go from here?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Oct 19 - 11:34 AM

I wonder at times if the human race is worth saving. When the press lauds eco vandals like Trump as heroes yet pillories someone like Greta, who is trying to save the earth, then something is seriously wrong. When people then start to believe it, my faith that humans are basically good is shattered.

Of course I will continue doing my best for my children, grandchildren and the rest of mankind's future but please excuse me if I seem to begrudge trying at times :-(


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Subject: RE: climate crisis - how do we go from here?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 08 Oct 19 - 11:44 AM

We all can do something. Today's load of laundry hung on the clothes line to dry is a small act, but it's a little less electricity being drawn from my house. One of these days I'd like to put solar panels on the roof, but I'm not there yet (I need to address the foundation issues before I do anything else big.)

Trolling isn't an eco-friendly act and it doesn't win friends or influence people, it simply brings the conversation back to focus on the troll, his object from the very beginning. Several perfectly acceptable posts have otherwise disappeared because they included a throw-away line with name calling or the challenging of moderation. It is possible to post entirely opposite points of view if they are on topic and presented to contribute ideas to the conversation.


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Subject: RE: climate crisis - how do we go from here?
From: Donuel
Date: 09 Oct 19 - 08:34 AM

Imagine a person actually thinking thay are combating global warming by using a multi use grocery bag. Its laughable if not sad.

To actually make a dent in the exponential change in climate would require government and individual spending on infrastructure that ( I estimate) is many times an individual or corporate annual income. Who do you know that would make that sacrifice? Even if successful things will get worse before it gets better in the midst of all the sacrifice.

While we are clever, Humans may value comfort over the cost of changing our ways. I doubt we will choose cost over comfort.


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Subject: RE: climate crisis - how do we go from here?
From: gillymor
Date: 09 Oct 19 - 08:58 AM

What's sad is your descenion into trollery.


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Subject: RE: climate crisis - how do we go from here?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 Oct 19 - 09:07 AM

Donuel. An individual using a multi-use bag will not combat climate change. No-one has said that they will. Whole nations stopping the use of throwaway plastic bags will not only help the climate, it will help the environment. Remember that the longest journey starts with a single step. Many have already made that commitment. Why do you chose to mock them instead of doing something positive?


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Subject: RE: climate crisis - how do we go from here?
From: Donuel
Date: 09 Oct 19 - 09:12 AM

Realism is not trollery. :^\
Where we need to go is furthering our mindset about global warming and advance making our planet into a paradise that could be and not as it is today. Keep your eyes on the prize despite our darkest doubts.

The one thing I liked about ST TNG is the depiction of our positive change in our social psyche and abandonment of greed.

As aware as we have become of the problem, we have not yet begun to fight. We must know what we are fighting for and what we are fighting against gillymor


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Subject: RE: climate crisis - how do we go from here?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 09 Oct 19 - 09:13 AM

It's baby steps, Don. Big things like the Paris Climate Accord have to be back on the table as soon as this administration is truncated. People doing things consciously at least shows awareness. Just like declining straws won't make a difference, at least there is a fad-like inkling of the problem as it exists.

https://storyofstuff.org/


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Subject: RE: climate crisis - how do we go from here?
From: Donuel
Date: 09 Oct 19 - 09:21 AM

Dave about bags, Steve said it. He will deny it but so what.
I have seen the vast improvement of our streams with the cut back on plastic bags. I have also seen the impact of extinctions.
Truths are painful when brutally honest. There will be more success to come but there wil be more pain.


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Subject: RE: climate crisis - how do we go from here?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 Oct 19 - 09:23 AM

Where we need to go is furthering our mindset about global warming

And how does mocking those that are starting to change their mindset, even in small ways, help? You may have transcended the mundane but many of us have not. Let us catch up and don't tell us we are laughable or sad for trying to help!


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Subject: RE: climate crisis - how do we go from here?
From: Donuel
Date: 09 Oct 19 - 09:28 AM

I know the difference between Opportunituld we ignore bstaclesies and obstacles.
I thought it was helpful for all of us to know both.
Should we ignore obstacles or are they too obvious to mention?


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Subject: RE: climate crisis - how do we go from here?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 Oct 19 - 09:30 AM

Not only will Steve deny it Donuel but I will too. Nowhere has anyone posted that reusable bags will combat climate change as a standalone measure. They are part of that mindset change that we need and to dismiss them as laughable or sad is damaging.


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Subject: RE: climate crisis - how do we go from here?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 Oct 19 - 09:32 AM

I have no idea what your last post meant. Sorry :-(


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Subject: RE: climate crisis - how do we go from here?
From: Donuel
Date: 09 Oct 19 - 09:36 AM

I will have my doubts and you will have your opinion that I am a diabolical troll. For people on the same side, its hard to find allies these days.


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Subject: RE: climate crisis - how do we go from here?
From: Donuel
Date: 09 Oct 19 - 09:44 AM

this is what I blindly wrote:
.
I know the difference between Opportunities and obatacles.
I thought it was helpful for all of us to know both.

Should we ignore obstacles or are they too obvious to mention?
I think they are both impoetant. If I am the enemy to the cause it is news to me.


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Subject: RE: climate crisis - how do we go from here?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 Oct 19 - 11:42 AM

I don't believe you are a diabolical troll for one minute. Just that you are mistaken that small acts are laughable or sad. And thanks for the explanation. I also know the difference between opportunities and obstacles. I also know, corny as it sounds, that obstacles present opportunities to surmount them. Anything is possible.


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Subject: RE: climate crisis - how do we go from here?
From: Donuel
Date: 09 Oct 19 - 02:58 PM

Baltimore law suit against oil and gas causung known climate change goes to the Supream Court


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Subject: RE: climate crisis - how do we go from here?
From: Donuel
Date: 11 Oct 19 - 11:01 AM

We need a national holiday that people could spend money on the cause. A holiday like Halloween converted to the threat of desth to our planet.

I heard we spend billions on Halloween. Is that true?


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Subject: RE: climate crisis - how do we go from here?
From: gillymor
Date: 11 Oct 19 - 12:18 PM

I think you're on to something there, Donuel. Maybe we could roll up some of those manufacturerd holidays and maximize Earth Day. At the very least it could raise awareness and educate people.


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Subject: RE: climate crisis - how do we go from here?
From: Donuel
Date: 11 Oct 19 - 12:59 PM

The competiveness and whimsy of Hallowen has probabl reached its peak. Combining Halloween with climate change along with a foundation of a death theme could be called something, but what? And how would it be competivtive?


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Subject: RE: climate crisis - how do we go from here?
From: Donuel
Date: 11 Oct 19 - 01:15 PM

Corporate sponsorship that would include the most vulnerable corporations to climate change like corporate farms would be good.
What other corporations are most vulnerable?


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Subject: RE: climate crisis - how do we go from here?
From: peteaberdeen
Date: 11 Oct 19 - 02:40 PM

i've always thought that we should have glastonbury festival monday off (Michael Eavis day) there are about 200,000 people who will be too wasted to work anyway. glastonbury has always supported good causes - CND, water aid, enjoy yourself, greenpeace etc. so it would easily become climate awareness day/week or whatever.


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Subject: RE: climate crisis - how do we go from here?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Oct 19 - 05:13 PM

Rupert Read of Extinction Rebellion was excellent on Question Time last night, measured, reasonable and articulate, in complete contrast with the dreadful and disreputable Julia Hartley-Brewer, who appears to be a climate-change denier of the I'm-proud-of-my-pig-ignorance school of non-thought, and the waffly archetypally-smug Toryboy Grant Crapps...oops, Schapps...


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Subject: RE: climate crisis - how do we go from here?
From: Donuel
Date: 11 Oct 19 - 05:59 PM

Jane Fonda was arrested on the Capitol steps today for protesting climate change.
She has planned a fire alarm friday and get arrested every friday.


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Subject: RE: climate crisis - how do we go from here?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Oct 19 - 06:23 PM

As I used to bollock Keith for misspelling names, I really must correct myself. It's Grant Shapps.


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Subject: RE: climate crisis - how do we go from here?
From: Donuel
Date: 13 Oct 19 - 06:25 AM

In an effort to know our own mind better I suggest googling human negative bias. Its natural and organic


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Subject: RE: climate crisis - how do we go from here?
From: Iains
Date: 18 Oct 19 - 06:47 AM

Others appear to share my views about Greta:


https://www.newstarget.com/2019-10-16-citizens-report-greta-thunbergs-parents-to-child-services.html


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Subject: RE: climate crisis - how do we go from here?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 18 Oct 19 - 11:05 AM

That isn't news - that's some crackpot's opinion telling about other crackpots.

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Subject: RE: climate crisis - how do we go from here?
From: Iains
Date: 18 Oct 19 - 11:23 AM

More crackpots no doubt.

https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/opinion/this-greta-thunberg-thing-is-child-abuse


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Subject: RE: climate crisis - how do we go from here?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 18 Oct 19 - 12:40 PM

Don’t feed the Troll.


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Subject: RE: climate crisis - how do we go from here?
From: Mossback
Date: 18 Oct 19 - 01:01 PM

Oh, great - now the Mods are feeding the troll................


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Subject: RE: climate crisis - how do we go from here?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Oct 19 - 02:08 PM

PLEASE read my 06.31pm message of yesterday on the brexit thread and BLOODY STICK TO IT!!


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Subject: RE: climate crisis - how do we go from here?
From: Iains
Date: 18 Oct 19 - 03:37 PM

Disparaging the messenger instead of the message does not carry the discussion forward, Does it?

argumentum ad hominem, typically refers to a fallacious argumentative strategy whereby genuine discussion of the topic at hand is avoided by instead attacking the character, motive, or other attribute of the person making the argument, or persons associated with the argument, rather than attacking the substance of the argument itself.

A rather common trait exhibited by denizens of the left!

When that strategy fails, we have: Date: 18 Oct 19 - 02:08 PM..........

Or resort to insults and accusations of trolling.

Obviously trying to refute the argument is felt to be impossible!


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Subject: RE: climate crisis - how do we go from here?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Oct 19 - 06:13 PM

BBC getting it in the neck on Feedback, rightly in my view, for giving Extinction Rebellion scant coverage. One comment was that the recent spat between two footballers' wives had received even more coverage. You can give coverage without it being assumed that you're biased in favour. I'm a big supporter of the Beeb, but that criticism is well deserved.


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Subject: RE: climate crisis - how do we go from here?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 19 Oct 19 - 01:32 AM

The coverage of the XR demos they do show does have a marked tendency to concentrate on the ‘sensational’ incidents - people climbing of the roofs of trains, groups of individuals blocking emergency services’ access, etc. - which is understandable - sensation sells news after all, and ‘people behaving peacefully’ aren’t really ‘sensational’, are they?

But there’s a far deeper message that is affecting us all and which our national broadcaster ought to be putting across, and it’s a shameful fact that they seem, once again, to be avoiding reporting fairly on an issue our government, headed as it is by Mastro Gepetto Trump’s Pinocchio, don’t want us to hear.


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Subject: RE: climate crisis - how do we go from here?
From: Iains
Date: 19 Oct 19 - 04:08 AM

This is an argument over the change in atmospheric CO2 from 0.03 to 0.04%. The value 0.04% is the same as that of water vapour, another greenhouse gas. Does such a change really have impact suggested?
Much of the time PROXIES are used to construct paleo data. This has its own inherent problems when it comes to extrapolation. The IPCC and MSM may claim the science is settled, I am still sceptical

https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/earth-and-planetary-sciences/paleotemperature

You should also ask why "Global Warming" morphed to "climate change".
Climate has always changed, the evidence is irrefutable.


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Mudcat time: 19 October 5:13 AM EDT

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