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Brexit and music

Jack Campin 30 Aug 19 - 10:53 AM
Rain Dog 30 Aug 19 - 11:11 AM
Mr Red 30 Aug 19 - 11:59 AM
Bonnie Shaljean 30 Aug 19 - 01:08 PM
Bonnie Shaljean 30 Aug 19 - 01:11 PM
Stilly River Sage 30 Aug 19 - 01:24 PM
Bonnie Shaljean 30 Aug 19 - 01:27 PM
Bonnie Shaljean 30 Aug 19 - 01:35 PM
Jim Carroll 30 Aug 19 - 01:40 PM
Jack Campin 30 Aug 19 - 01:46 PM
Roger the Skiffler 30 Aug 19 - 01:50 PM
Jack Campin 30 Aug 19 - 02:06 PM
Howard Jones 30 Aug 19 - 02:28 PM
Bonnie Shaljean 30 Aug 19 - 02:37 PM
Howard Jones 30 Aug 19 - 02:37 PM
Howard Jones 30 Aug 19 - 02:40 PM
Bonnie Shaljean 30 Aug 19 - 02:43 PM
Jack Campin 30 Aug 19 - 04:32 PM
GUEST,JoeG 30 Aug 19 - 05:40 PM
GUEST,Observer 30 Aug 19 - 07:59 PM
Bonnie Shaljean 31 Aug 19 - 01:45 AM
GUEST,Akenaton 31 Aug 19 - 07:16 AM
GUEST,Observer 31 Aug 19 - 08:49 AM
GUEST,akenaton 31 Aug 19 - 10:16 AM
Steve Shaw 31 Aug 19 - 12:00 PM
GUEST,akenaton 31 Aug 19 - 12:29 PM
GUEST,Observer 31 Aug 19 - 12:34 PM
Steve Shaw 31 Aug 19 - 03:07 PM
Mr Red 02 Sep 19 - 02:57 AM
Jim Carroll 02 Sep 19 - 03:13 AM
Jim Carroll 02 Sep 19 - 03:40 AM
Jim Carroll 02 Sep 19 - 03:46 AM
Jim McLean 02 Sep 19 - 03:57 AM
Howard Jones 02 Sep 19 - 04:46 AM
Howard Jones 02 Sep 19 - 04:56 AM
Jack Campin 02 Sep 19 - 06:33 AM
GUEST,Observer 02 Sep 19 - 07:00 AM
Howard Jones 02 Sep 19 - 08:51 AM
Howard Jones 02 Sep 19 - 08:57 AM
Jack Campin 02 Sep 19 - 10:01 AM
Nigel Parsons 02 Sep 19 - 04:32 PM
GUEST,Observer 03 Sep 19 - 01:37 AM
Howard Jones 03 Sep 19 - 02:28 AM
GUEST,Observer 03 Sep 19 - 02:46 AM
Howard Jones 03 Sep 19 - 03:58 AM
GUEST,Jack Campin 03 Sep 19 - 07:29 AM
GUEST,Observer 03 Sep 19 - 12:38 PM
Howard Jones 03 Sep 19 - 06:51 PM
Mr Red 05 Sep 19 - 02:57 AM
GUEST,Observer 05 Sep 19 - 04:09 AM
Howard Jones 05 Sep 19 - 08:33 AM
GUEST,Jack Campin 09 Sep 19 - 07:56 AM
Mr Red 09 Sep 19 - 04:00 PM
GUEST,Ray 09 Sep 19 - 04:48 PM
GUEST,Observer 09 Sep 19 - 08:11 PM
Mr Red 10 Sep 19 - 04:34 AM
Howard Jones 11 Sep 19 - 05:15 AM
Jack Campin 11 Sep 19 - 05:27 AM
GUEST,Observer 11 Sep 19 - 10:47 AM
Nigel Parsons 11 Sep 19 - 11:21 AM
Howard Jones 11 Sep 19 - 05:52 PM
GUEST,Observer 12 Sep 19 - 03:17 AM
GUEST,Peter 12 Sep 19 - 04:34 AM
Howard Jones 12 Sep 19 - 04:40 AM
Rain Dog 12 Sep 19 - 07:23 AM
GUEST,Observer 12 Sep 19 - 09:39 AM
Jack Campin 15 Sep 19 - 01:47 PM
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Subject: Brexit and music
From: Jack Campin
Date: 30 Aug 19 - 10:53 AM

We have other Brexit threads. Can we keep this one absolutely on topic for music related issues? - i.e. mods, can any general political posts be deleted immediately?

I didn't realize the VAT issue was this bad:

https://www.rawmusictv.com/article/amp/2019/UK-bands-now-have-to-pay-import-duty-and-VAT-on-ALL-merchandise-before-even-entering-Europe-to-tour


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Subject: RE: Brexit and music
From: Rain Dog
Date: 30 Aug 19 - 11:11 AM

Of course we will have to wait and see what is finally agreed between us and the EU but it is going to be that bit more difficult taking goods into the EU. As of course it was before we became full members of the EU. People toured then and no doubt will tour again. Just not as carefree as it has been.


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Subject: RE: Brexit and music
From: Mr Red
Date: 30 Aug 19 - 11:59 AM

I think you will find it will be covered by online documentation where you declare it is for use not for sale. The paper process was in use even while we were in the EC. Certainly in 1985/6 I had to drive to Birmingham to get the document. Called a carnet. Everything has to be documented. Norway and Switzerland know this, and it is a pain. Serial numbers, descriptions, etc, etc.

I have been cracking-on about the return of needing a carnet ever since the referendum result was in. In this parish and in print in my columns in magazines.

And without the documentation you will be hit with import duty on return to the UK.

There will be other things crawling out of the woodwork. Income tax? The Rolling Stones used to (still?) specify they were met with a tax expert at the border!

There - not a mention of the "B" word.

(Oh and if you buy a guitar abroad, be sure to insist on a well used guitar case). Take an empty one with you?


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Subject: RE: Brexit and music
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 30 Aug 19 - 01:08 PM

The other delightful thing about carnets? If your ferry or plane or whatever arrives at the customs post after the carnet office (at which you must check in, usually behind a long line of articulated lorries) is closed, Tough Cheese. You spend the night and wait, or else pay a fortune. Voice of experience (and a near-miss) on that one, trying to drive a concert harp though various European borders. Getting our car through the Berlin Corridor in (then) East Germany with all their police checks was easier. I'm not kidding.

And make sure you get the Right Kind of carnet - there are (or were in those days) a bunch of them. And they are HELL to fill out. Makes VAT forms look like kindergarten scribbling.


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Subject: RE: Brexit and music
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 30 Aug 19 - 01:11 PM

I think the same kind of thing also applies to any merchandise you want to sell, if memory serves. Not sure, but make sure you find out before hauling out your CDs & T-shirts.


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Subject: RE: Brexit and music
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 30 Aug 19 - 01:24 PM

Links don't always last, so try to include some context in case it disappears later. Jack's article is titled:

UK bands now have to pay import duty and VAT on ALL merchandise before even entering Europe to tour

    . . . No Deal Brexit is set to be a nightmare for everyone, including bands. This is all laid out in government documentation. . . . Good news, you even have to apply for a VAT number and apply for an EORI number which means, according to the Government's own website, “you may have increased costs and delays”. This will literally destroy any opportunity for UK artists and bands, mainly independent ones, to tour the EU. How many artists will be able to afford to pay their entire VAT and duty on merch before even selling it? On top of the costs already suffered by bands to tour the EU.


I've extracted just a bit to show the concerns for working musicians.


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Subject: RE: Brexit and music
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 30 Aug 19 - 01:27 PM

It's not just merch, it's instruments too. Or was.


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Subject: RE: Brexit and music
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 30 Aug 19 - 01:35 PM

In the bad old days, you couldn't just SAY it wasn't for sale - you had to prove it with all the prior paperwork.

Only fun memory is, riding one time between Italy and Somewhere in a band bus with all our gear, and they raised violent objection to the bouzoukis. We couldn't understand what their problem exactly was, and the cross-language barrier didn't help. Finally the light dawned, when one of them mimed holding a machine gun and said "NO BOOM-BOOM-BOOM" over and over until we twigged.

He thought we meant bazookas.


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Subject: RE: Brexit and music
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Aug 19 - 01:40 PM

There is already much discussion of the future prospects on cross/Irish sea booking of artists over here in Ireland
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Brexit and music
From: Jack Campin
Date: 30 Aug 19 - 01:46 PM

This would presumably mean that you get your CDs and t-shirts manufactured locally when you arrive. And try to find where you can hire a top-range well-maintained set of Highland pipes in Poland.


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Subject: RE: Brexit and music
From: Roger the Skiffler
Date: 30 Aug 19 - 01:50 PM

Many of the jazz bands I see have international membership, a quartet can contain four different nationalities. I also know someone who played in a pan-European baroque ensemble based in UK now going to be based in Europe. Will Brexit make it more difficult for such productive cross-border collaborations?
RtS


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Subject: RE: Brexit and music
From: Jack Campin
Date: 30 Aug 19 - 02:06 PM

A Baroque group has extra issues because of CITES. You won't be able to take a recorder made of rosewood or a flute with ivory rings across the border, at least not without very detailed provenance documentation.


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Subject: RE: Brexit and music
From: Howard Jones
Date: 30 Aug 19 - 02:28 PM

Not just Baroque groups. Violins, guitars, and many other instruments may contain protected species. My concertina contains rosewood and mahogany. There are supposedly relaxations for musical instruments but I'm still not clear what paperwork might be required or how much it might cost.


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Subject: RE: Brexit and music
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 30 Aug 19 - 02:37 PM

Yikes, that's right. I have an ivory-ringed treble recorder that I bought direct from von Huene back in my Boston days, which is way, way too good for me. It wasn't one of his own, but he had it for sale in his workshop; and when (on the advice of one of the wind students who had come with me and could really play) I chose it, VH said, "Wait a moment and I'll make it better for you." He then disappeared into the nether regions of his workshop, and all we could hear was this unnervingly ferocious banging. But it arrived back to me in one healthy piece, and I have it still.

I got it registered at Heathrow once, back in the days of yore, but God knows where THAT paperwork is. Fortunately, I can't play it well enough to need to worry. Got some mahogany harps tho...


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Subject: RE: Brexit and music
From: Howard Jones
Date: 30 Aug 19 - 02:37 PM

Until and unless we have some sort of deal with the EU, we will probably need a visa.

Visas for third party nationals travelling to the Schengen Area

Unless something is done it will become too difficult or too expensive for many musicians in all genres to travel between the UK and EU. Only those who have already made it, and can command the fees to justify the administration costs, will be able to travel.

Will amateur musicians travelling with instruments to festivals, summer schools and workshops also need all this paperwork?


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Subject: RE: Brexit and music
From: Howard Jones
Date: 30 Aug 19 - 02:40 PM

I was chatting to an instrument dealer the other day who told me he was planning to travel to Ireland shortly to get rid of a load of rosewood concertinas before import duty, VAT and CITES paperwork made it uneconomic.


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Subject: RE: Brexit and music
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 30 Aug 19 - 02:43 PM

Ireland's not part of Schengen, for whatever comfort that may (or may not) offer.

Jim...? Any thoughts?


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Subject: RE: Brexit and music
From: Jack Campin
Date: 30 Aug 19 - 04:32 PM

I assume that amateurs will have exactly the same customs and VAT issues as pros.

I didn't count, but I must have had more than 5000 pounds' worth of instruments with me when I went to Weimar this month for the Yiddish Summer klezmer events. No idea how I could do my usual thing at next year's if Brexit happens. I specialize in unusual kit you can't easily substitute, borrow or hire.

The reason we went on an Interrail trip round Europe in March was also because of Brexit, then due on March 31st. We had a cello in the house that belonged to Marion's son in Germany, who wanted to play it again. Bought by a very old relative 60 years ago for 5 pounds, it's now worth 5000. A lot of import duty. So we chaperoned it by rail from Scotland and went on to other places. Wouldn't have thought of doing ot otherwise.


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Subject: RE: Brexit and music
From: GUEST,JoeG
Date: 30 Aug 19 - 05:40 PM

So all looking good then ;-)


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Subject: RE: Brexit and music
From: GUEST,Observer
Date: 30 Aug 19 - 07:59 PM

I imagine the same rules applied to Alex Campbell and his contemporaries in the pre-EU membership days - They seemed not only to have survived it but to have thrived on it.


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Subject: RE: Brexit and music
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 31 Aug 19 - 01:45 AM

The thing they thrived on was the music, not the obstacles put in its way. I remember the carnet horror stories they all used to tell.


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Subject: RE: Brexit and music
From: GUEST,Akenaton
Date: 31 Aug 19 - 07:16 AM

If I remember correctly you couldn't keep the Scottish folkies out of East Germany and Scandinavia pre EU.
The Laggan I think had a No1 in East Germany, or so Arthur Johnstone told me one boozy night in Argyll.


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Subject: RE: Brexit and music
From: GUEST,Observer
Date: 31 Aug 19 - 08:49 AM

You only ever pay VAT once, that from experience is in the country where you have the CD's, Merchandise, etc., made. VAT is the EU wide tax that basically pays for the EU.

After leaving the EU the UK will be free to do one of three things with VAT.

1. They can leave it exactly as it currently stands and use the revenue raised to pay all former existing subsidies formerly received from the EU and pocket the surplus [The UK is the EU's second largest net-contributor after Germany] to squander as they see fit.

2. They can reduce the level of VAT wholesale or on whatever selected items they see fit thus reducing the price of many things but still taking in enough to pay former subsidies.

3. They could abolish it altogether, then of course bands, musicians, performers would have to render unto Caeser the things that are Caeser's. This of course would only be on what they decided to take with them and they would not have paid any form of VAT on the items in the UK so they would have been cheaper to make in the first place.

As with all things in life it is usually a case of "swings and round-abouts".

Don't know that many bands now that do actually make money lugging vast numbers of CDs and merchandise about. For the music, streaming and downloading seems to be more the norm.


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Subject: RE: Brexit and music
From: GUEST,akenaton
Date: 31 Aug 19 - 10:16 AM

I suppose quite a few touring bands will be affected by VAT, a shameful tax which both discriminates against the poorest in society and is an impediment to individuals and groups expanding and prospering.
Perhaps when we leave the EU, VAT can lowered or abolished.


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Subject: RE: Brexit and music
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 31 Aug 19 - 12:00 PM

We can't really blame the EU for indirect taxes. Until we joined the EU we had purchase tax, which VAT replaced. Almost the first thing Thatcher's first government did in 1979 was to raise the standard rate of VAT from 8% to 15%, which they didn't have to do. Currently, the minimum standard rate that EU countries must maintain is 15%. The UK's rate is 20%. The extra is our doing alone. Can't see brexit triggering a reduction somehow.


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Subject: RE: Brexit and music
From: GUEST,akenaton
Date: 31 Aug 19 - 12:29 PM

"Time for bed",   said Zebedee.


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Subject: RE: Brexit and music
From: GUEST,Observer
Date: 31 Aug 19 - 12:34 PM

VAT plus tariffs charged on goods coming into the EU from outside are what pays for the EU - so yes you can blame this indirect tax on the EU - it needs it to survive. As previously stated AFTER the UK leaves it can:

1. Keep it as is and nobody feels any different but the Government take in more revenue.

2. Reduce it just to cover present subsidy levels and to lower some prices.

3. Abolish it and lower the price of almost everything.

As the UK is currently still a member of the EU then no-one in the EU has the right to charge any UK band, musician or performer any additional VAT for bringing in CDs or merchandise to another EU country [Switzerland I know you do but then Switzerland is NOT an EU Country].

Again as previously stated as someone who has produced CDs you pay VAT plus royalties where applicable on every CD you make when you buy your first and subsequent production runs - you then charge a sum for each individual CD and you do not add VAT on top of that sum.

To address something in the post above - incoming Governments sometimes have to raise taxes due to the lamentable financial state they often find themselves inheriting - I cannot think of a single democratically elected government that raises taxes just for the hell of it.


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Subject: RE: Brexit and music
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 31 Aug 19 - 03:07 PM

I gave you the facts. No more from me. I'm respecting Jack's request to not politicise this thread.


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Subject: RE: Brexit and music
From: Mr Red
Date: 02 Sep 19 - 02:57 AM

Perhaps when we leave the EU, VAT can lowered or abolished.

Nothing certain except death and taxes. The answer will be NO! time will tell, I can wait. Import duty threshold was reduced to £15 - a stealth tax to pay for it. And IME they slap VAT on top of that. Outside of the EU there are no rules - look at the constitutional arguements now! Music is low on their agenda.

Copyright will be affected by Brexit, mostly through litigation, rather than any immediate change in the law.


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Subject: RE: Brexit and music
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Sep 19 - 03:13 AM

"Copyright will be affected by Brexit, mostly through litigation"
That shouldn't affect folk song which is in public domain then :-)
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Brexit and music
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Sep 19 - 03:40 AM

I have no idea whether it was the same in Britain, but in Ireland there was a European financial input into the arts which we were able to take advantage of on two occasions in order to make available our Traveller collection
I think the publication of Tom Munnely's Essays, 'The Singing Will Never Be Done', may have benefitted from that assistance.

This is how it works, according to Irish Arts Council literature

"Creative Europe Programme 2013 sees the launch of the new Creative Europe Programme, a continued commitment by the European Union to fund the creative and cultural sectors. Creative Europe will last for seven years from 2014 - 2020. The Creative Europe Programme will seek to help artists develop international careers and to foster international networks to create professional opportunities"

Without assistance such as this the Traditional Music Sene would not have been as healthy as it is
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Brexit and music
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Sep 19 - 03:46 AM

FOLLOW-UP
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Brexit and music
From: Jim McLean
Date: 02 Sep 19 - 03:57 AM

Nigel Denver and I travelled extensively throughout Europe and Scandinavia during the early 1960s, crisscrossing borders without any hassle with a guitar and bagpipes.The only time we had trouble was in Paris in 1961 when I was surrounded and pushed up against the wall by gendarmes who thought my (folded) bagpipes was a rifle.

Another point .. the rules don't apply between Nothern Ireland and the Republic so could one travel to Europe via the Irish Republic after entering through NI? Or is this affected by Shengen?


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Subject: RE: Brexit and music
From: Howard Jones
Date: 02 Sep 19 - 04:46 AM

"Don't know that many bands now that do actually make money lugging vast numbers of CDs and merchandise about. For the music, streaming and downloading seems to be more the norm."

That's certainly not my experience. Younger audiences may prefer to download, but older people who make up a lot of folk audiences still prefer a physical product. Streaming a track on Spotify pays about $0.005, so unless you're a big name attracting millions of streams it takes a while to amount to anything. Of course digital is an important part of marketing, but it takes several months to achieve the same as a sale of a single CD. And until 3D printers become more widespread, it's difficult to download a Tshirt.

VAT is complicated as there are different rules for physical products and digital. Because we're below the VAT threshold we don't charge VAT on CD sales, but VAT is charged on digital sales - fortunately the digital vendors handle this.

For us, the cost and bureaucracy of having to make payments up-front would now discourage us from taking CDs abroad, instead we would encourage audiences to download or purchase online


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Subject: RE: Brexit and music
From: Howard Jones
Date: 02 Sep 19 - 04:56 AM

Crossing border has always depended very much on the whim of the customs officers. Some will wave you through, others will want to go through everything. I guess a solo musician travelling light will probably find it easier than a band with a van full of gear.

The other point to remember is that all these experiences of pre-EU travel were before CITES came into effect. Customs officers may now be interested in what your instruments are made from as well as what you intend to do with them. The proposed relaxations for musical instruments do not include Brazilian rosewood, which was widely used in guitars, so you may still the need the appropriate certificate.


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Subject: RE: Brexit and music
From: Jack Campin
Date: 02 Sep 19 - 06:33 AM

I presume VAT applies to hotel stays in the same way it does to any other services? (I've been most aware of this in Turkey, where the rate is prominently posted at reception - "KDV Dahildir"). But within the EU you can presumably claim it back if it's a business-related expense as part of your tour. If you come from a country that isn't part of the EU VAT system, your accommodation will cost 25% more. And conversely - for an EU-based act, touring the UK gets more expensive.


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Subject: RE: Brexit and music
From: GUEST,Observer
Date: 02 Sep 19 - 07:00 AM

"the cost and bureaucracy of having to make payments up-front would now discourage us from taking CDs abroad"

Never, ever, have I, or any others that I know ever had to pay anything "up front" to take CDs abroad - Tours and festivals North America, Europe, Australia.

Never, ever had any problem with instruments either, in fact the only time I have ever seen a guitar case opened was once on our return to the UK from the USA where all the Customs Officer wanted to check on was that the instrument inside the case was not a brand new one being brought into the country. Once he saw the obvious signs of usage he simply closed the case and we carried on through.

CITES is a multi-national Treaty and neither the UK's Brexit or EU Regulation has, or will have any impact on it. Being the older international treaty it has precedence over anything the UK or Brussel's can introduce that could be seen as altering or amending CITES.

CITES coverage


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Subject: RE: Brexit and music
From: Howard Jones
Date: 02 Sep 19 - 08:51 AM

"Never, ever, have I, or any others that I know ever had to pay anything "up front" to take CDs abroad - Tours and festivals North America, Europe, Australia."

That's what is now being reported may happen, for example:

https://louderthanwar.com/post-brexit-uk-bands-may-pay-vat-import-duty-merch-leaving-country/

And here's a link to the Government guidance

"CITES is a multi-national Treaty and neither the UK's Brexit or EU Regulation has, or will have any impact on it. "

What will change is that up to now all movements within the EU have been regarded as internal and you don't require documentation simply to carry your instruments around, any more than you do within the UK. After Brexit, travelling to the EU will become a cross-border movement, and if your instruments contain protected species then the appropriate paperwork will be required.

Is there really a risk that your instrument will be confiscated? I don't know, but this article suggests that they have been in the past, although the exact numbers are unclear.

Instruments seized under CITES

There are proposals to relax the rules for musical instruments, but that won't include Brazilian rosewood. I for one won't be taking the chance.

Eventually when we get a deal with the EU (as we must) then maybe all this will be resolved. I wouldn't care to guess how long that might take.


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Subject: RE: Brexit and music
From: Howard Jones
Date: 02 Sep 19 - 08:57 AM

"within the EU you can presumably claim (VAT) back if it's a business-related expense as part of your tour"

Won't that apply only if the band or musician is VAT-registered?   A very large number won't be.

So far as I am aware an ordinary consumer can't recover VAT on services abroad. This is different from purchases of goods, which can be bought VAT-free on the basis that you pay import duty and VAT on bringing it into your own country. However VAT is immensely complicated so I may be wrong.


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Subject: RE: Brexit and music
From: Jack Campin
Date: 02 Sep 19 - 10:01 AM

You don't have to be a very big operation to be VAT registered, and it's advantageous if you are. The point where it becomes compulsory is in the small-business range.


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Subject: RE: Brexit and music
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 02 Sep 19 - 04:32 PM

So far as I am aware an ordinary consumer can't recover VAT on services abroad. This is different from purchases of goods, which can be bought VAT-free on the basis that you pay import duty and VAT on bringing it into your own country. However VAT is immensely complicated so I may be wrong.
Not quite. Goods can only be purchased VAT free (or the VAT subsequently reclaimed) by foreign travellers who will be taking the goods out of the EU (of course this will also apply to UK purchasers once we leave the EU as we will then be viewed as 'foreign travellers')


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Subject: RE: Brexit and music
From: GUEST,Observer
Date: 03 Sep 19 - 01:37 AM

" up to now all movements within the EU have been regarded as internal"

CITES was signed by national governments, AFAIK the EU is NOT a signatory [The EU is not a Government - although sometimes it thinks and acts as though it is]. Therefore if what you state is correct then those EU nations are in flagrant violation of the terms of this treaty [The UK certainly isn't according to the link you provided] .

The opening post contained a link which included the following statement - "UK-bands-NOW-have-to-pay-import-duty-and-VAT-on-ALL-merchandise-before-even-entering-Europe-to-tour" - Ehmmmm No they don't as far as European countries in the EU and EEA are concerned. The articles linked to to support this contention all say that this is what MAY happen in the future in which no deal is ever negotiated [UK could leave the EU on 31.10.2019 with no deal, but that does not mean that some form of a trade deal could not be negotiated at a later date].


CDs and T-Shirts appear to be neither "licenced or controlled" items as defined or detailed by the lists provided by the UK Government.


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Subject: RE: Brexit and music
From: Howard Jones
Date: 03 Sep 19 - 02:28 AM

Observer I note your comments but the reality is that as a general rule, no permits or certificates are needed for keeping or moving a specimen of a species listed in CITES Annex B, C or D inside the EU. See Section 2.2 of the
EU Guidance Presumably someone with greater knowledge than you and I has decided this is legal.

The UK government advises that"You will not be able to freely move or trade species listed in Annex A – D between the UK and the EU."

UK government guidance CITES after Brexit

Furthermore, you will only be able to move protected species through a designated entry point, which does not include Dover and Eurotunnel.

Yes, all this only applies if there is no new deal to cover these issues (a point I made earlier), and surely we must have a deal with the EU at some point. But it is unclear when this will be agreed or what it will say. In the meantime we are about to leave the EU and, unless things change dramatically in the next few weeks, without a deal. The likelihood is that, at least in the short term and possibly for an indeterminate period, these constraints will apply.


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Subject: RE: Brexit and music
From: GUEST,Observer
Date: 03 Sep 19 - 02:46 AM

I take it that Section 2.2 applies only after compliance with what is stated in Section 2.1:

Internal trade in the EU includes trade within one EU Member State and trade between individual EU Member States. Due to the establishment of the EU single market, there are no border controls inside the EU and generally goods can be moved and traded freely inside the EU. However, this applies to specimens of species listed in Annex B, C or D only if they have been acquired and/or imported into the EU in accordance with the provisions of CITES, the EU Wildlife Trade Regulations and other legislation that may be applicable in an individual Member State. Specimens of species listed in Annex A are generally not allowed to be used for commercial purposes and their movement inside the EU is also subject to regulations

To those who are still awake - what is basically being talked about here by the EU is live specimens.

So Howard, on that clearly stipulated condition, specifically outlined by the EU Guidance I will stand by what I have said in my previous posts.


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Subject: RE: Brexit and music
From: Howard Jones
Date: 03 Sep 19 - 03:58 AM

Here's the MU guidance:

MU CITES update

MU travelling with an instrument

There have always been some relaxations for movement for personal use, including performance. What regulations apply depend on what protected species are used. In some cases a Musical Instrument Certificate is required - an "instrument passport". While we are in the EU an MIC is not required, this will change when we leave. We don't know whether the EU will be as rigorous as the US, but it would be unwise to assume they won't be concerned about it.

The regulations are about to be changed to make it even easier to move instruments, but this does not include Brazilian rosewood which is found in many guitars and other instruments.


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Subject: RE: Brexit and music
From: GUEST,Jack Campin
Date: 03 Sep 19 - 07:29 AM

The British government doesn't think it means live specimens. Here's one of their advice pages:

https://www.nidirect.gov.uk/articles/souvenirs-and-endangered-species

That means the leopardskin apron the bass drummer in your regimental pipe band wears. Saying the leopard is dead doesn't let the Army off.


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Subject: RE: Brexit and music
From: GUEST,Observer
Date: 03 Sep 19 - 12:38 PM

Jack the link to EU Guidance given by Howard:

Permits, Certificates and Notifications

Documents needed for wildlife trade into, from and inside the EU
   
1. WILDLIFE TRADE INTO AND FROM THE EU
   1.1 Overview
   1.2 What types of documents for what purpose?
   1.3 Which document do I need?
   1.4 Where should I apply for an EU permit or certificate?
   1.5 What are the procedures and conditions for the issuance of an EU permit or certificate?
   1.6 General derogations from import and export conditions

2. INTERNAL TRADE IN THE EU
   2.1 Overview
   2.2 General provisions for internal trade of specimens of species listed in EU Regulations
   2.3 Regarding commercial use of specimens of Annex A listed species (Art. 8.1 of Council Regulation (EC) No 338/97)
   2.4 Exemptions and the use of EU internal trade certificates
   2.5 “Fast track” certificates – the use of pre-issued certificates
   2.6 Circuses and travelling exhibitions
   2.7 General exemptions and derogations for internal trade


DID deal mainly with animals and "live" animals at that. But I suppose that you would have actually have to have read it to glean that point.

Leopardskin aprons worn by Regimental Band Bass Drummers - Perhaps you should look at the age of them Jack. It is not as though orders are put in for hundreds each year. If the skin has already been cleared and is of an age that predates a certain point there is no problem with those items.

Most widely internationally travelled military band in the UK would be the Band of the Royal Marines - Bass Drummer in that wears a Tiger skin apron - no problems encountered so far.

Black Bearskins as used by Regiments of Foot Guards and the Royal Scots Dragoon Guards all come from cull killed Black Bears in Canada, that cull having been authorised by the Canadian Government in accordance with advice given each year by their Wildlife Department. They would not be subject to prohibition or restriction of movement. Not one single Black Bear gets shot to provide a Guardsman with a hat - those are a by-product, the Bear would be shot in any case.


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Subject: RE: Brexit and music
From: Howard Jones
Date: 03 Sep 19 - 06:51 PM

Observer, the fact is that the international movement of instruments containing listed species of wood and other materials requires the appropriate paperwork. There are plenty of resources on the internet to support this - besides the turgid official government information, guitar, woodwind and violin journals have all carried articles, as have instrument retailers and dealers, and the MU. It is a well-known issue, in particular for travellers into the US, EU, Australia and Japan as they have the strictest enforcement measures.

Movement within the EU itself does not require this, because it is a single customs area. When we leave the EU the UK will no longer be part of that customs area, and we will need the documentation if our instruments contain the listed species. However if you believe you have found a loophole in CITES to avoid this then good luck to you.


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Subject: RE: Brexit and music
From: Mr Red
Date: 05 Sep 19 - 02:57 AM

You only ever pay VAT once, that from experience is in the country where you have the CD's,

Only while this country are in the EU &/or have a deal. As we have found recently, governments are not bound by reason, logic, honesty or moral constraints. Only expediency in garnering revenue to 1) pay for Brexshit 2) pay for the tax brides in hopes of success at the next election/by.

Import duty was lowered from £35 to £15 very quietly. Thus constituting a stealth tax. But in a "no deal" Brexshit would help pay for the mess. Until people wised-up, and by then they would buy from UK sources and import duty would have been paid anyway. Win Win, but still underhand.

FWIW Chinese operators on E-Bay often have UK registered addresses and charge what they charge but declare cost appropriate to their loss in the event of disaster en-route direct from China. eg Shoes that retail at £24 (UK address) were declared as $6 for customs (from China). (I bought as fun Shoes until I spoke to a non-folkie wearing non-red ones).

As has been stated, in the case of music/CD there is always the internet and MP3, which in the case of modern cars is the only way to play the songs anyway. But the philosophy is "grab the money while it is fresh in their hand/mind". And physical items are the only way, there.


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Subject: RE: Brexit and music
From: GUEST,Observer
Date: 05 Sep 19 - 04:09 AM

Mr Red if you are going to quote from my post's please do fully and accurately. Full quote is as follows:

"You only ever pay VAT once, that from experience is in the country where you have the CD's, Merchandise, etc., made."

VAT is the EU wide tax that basically pays for the EU. After leaving the EU the British Government have the following choices relating to VAT:

1. We retain it exactly as it is - no-one sees, or experiences any difference. The Government raises the money to continue paying every subsidy previously paid by the EU in addition the British Government retains what used to be our net-contribution to the EU's coffers [The UK after Germany is the largest net-contributor to the EU and has been for decades]

2. We retain VAT but reduce it, or we remove it on certain items to the extent that we can continue to pay every subsidy previously paid by the EU but there is now no additional money raised.

3. The UK can abolish VAT altogether and find other means (taxes) to subsidise whatever we want - Still less expensive than us paying into the EU.


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Subject: RE: Brexit and music
From: Howard Jones
Date: 05 Sep 19 - 08:33 AM

VAT goes to the Treasury. It is not specifically to pay for the EU, except to the extent that it contributes to the government's general pot of money that the UK's contributions are paid out of. VAT is harmonised across the EU, but individual governments have some degree of latitude in setting the applicable rates, within the legal framework set out by the EU (and which, at the risk of getting political, the UK had a part in agreeing). It is true that after Brexit the UK government will be entirely free to set whatever rates it wishes, how that will work out remains to be seen.

What this seems to mean in practice is that post-Brexit we will now be able to purchase stuff VAT-free from businesses in the EU, including musical instruments and equipment. Great! However we will have to pay UK VAT (or whatever replaces it) together with import duty when it comes into the UK. What these rates are will depend on what deal we eventually agree with the EU, until then (as I understand it) they will be at WTO rates. Whether this works out more or less expensive for the purchaser remains to be seen, it will certainly add to the paperwork and delay in receiving your order. It will make it less attractive to buy from companies in the EU, and with less competition UK prices may then rise. It will significantly affect trading of second-hand instruments, especially by private individuals who do not currently have to charge VAT.

There's an interesting article here:

Impact Assessment: Brexit and the musical instrument market

Musicians taking CDs and other merchandise into the EU for sale will be subject to the requirements I linked to before to pay HMRC up front.

Digital sales must now charge VAT at the applicable rate in the purchaser's country, and unlike physical products there is no VAT threshold so this applies to all sales no matter how small. There is a system known as VATMOSS which was being set up to administer all this, so it would be handled through HMRC rather than having to deal with separate EU countries, but I'm not sure if this will continue after Brexit. Many musicians sell downloads through portals such as CD Baby and Bandcamp, which handle the VAT for them so the impact may be fairly small.


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Subject: RE: Brexit and music
From: GUEST,Jack Campin
Date: 09 Sep 19 - 07:56 AM

Elizabeth Ford is an American musicologist who lives in Scotland and researches Scottish music. She was just told, on the same day, that her book was ready for publication and that the Home Office refused her permission to stay in the UK.

Elizabeth Ford on Twitter

I've read her work and met her. Scotland would be a better place with her still in it.


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Subject: RE: Brexit and music
From: Mr Red
Date: 09 Sep 19 - 04:00 PM

After leaving the EU the British Government have the following choices relating to VAT:

Governments are not disposed to follow your predictions (or whatever you call them). They will do what they do and, as is being demonstrated, will do regardless of the rightness be it legal, moral, or even rational. Their only barrier is other politicians who may or may not be less reprehensible. Anyone who has favourites will always wish to paint them in a better light. But that light can be switched off by history, and so it will. I can wait.

Here's you caveat expressed by government sources - viz a Motorway electronic overhead sign:
 FREIGHT TO EU     
 PAPERWORK MAY
 CHANGE 1 NOV     


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Subject: RE: Brexit and music
From: GUEST,Ray
Date: 09 Sep 19 - 04:48 PM

Unfortunately, taxes have a nasty habit of being perpetuated long after their sell by date. If I remember correctly, UK Income Tax was originally introduced to pay for the Napoleonic Wars.


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Subject: RE: Brexit and music
From: GUEST,Observer
Date: 09 Sep 19 - 08:11 PM

How remarkably observant of you Mr. Red [RE: Your Motorway sign] - What does this sign presage according to your understanding of it? I take it that you do fully understand the use and the meaning of the word "MAY", or do you like most posting to this forum expect this to happen after the sky has fallen, the first-born of every household in the land has died and after we have suffered plagues of frogs and locusts [Admittedly the time of year may be a bit out for the latter]

Guest Ray, you are 100% correct that was the purpose that Income Tax was originally introduced and let's face it, the Napoleonic Wars were damned expensive for Great Britain and after they were finished, after we had paid to keep various coalitions in the fight against Napoleon I imagine that the UK found that it was in debt and that that debt had to be paid off - Fortunately we already had a tax scheme in operation to do just that - Any idea of what the rate was and who actually paid it? Information is all held by the Government.

None of that alters a jot what I have previously stated.


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Subject: RE: Brexit and music
From: Mr Red
Date: 10 Sep 19 - 04:34 AM

I find it remarkable that some posters kick-off on their own misunderstanding. I won't patronise by quoting the dictionary definition of caveat. But then it didn't take long for thread drift to encroach & to personolise.

Motorway signs are there to be read by all diligent drivers, unless you deall Cymraeg gwleidyddol. Personally bron dim. But for the message to be displayed like that, it must have come from deep within the corridors of power. Perhaps they are waking-up to the enormity of the chosen task ahead. The Devil is always in the detail.

And don't expect them not to resurrect new and improved PEL.


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Subject: RE: Brexit and music
From: Howard Jones
Date: 11 Sep 19 - 05:15 AM

I'm not sure why Observer (who I guess supports Brexit) is so defensive. All this is an inevitable and even an intended outcome of leaving the EU. If a deal is done, now or in the future, other measures may be put in place to make these issues easier, possibly but not necessarily by replicating the current arrangements. Until then our dealings with the EU will be at arms length, which will inevitably mean more complicated and almost certainly more expensive. It's what the country voted for, apparently.


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Subject: RE: Brexit and music
From: Jack Campin
Date: 11 Sep 19 - 05:27 AM

The Home Office going through a truly Kafkaesque routine to fuck up an American musician's life:

Weaseling out of the Good Friday Agreement


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Subject: RE: Brexit and music
From: GUEST,Observer
Date: 11 Sep 19 - 10:47 AM

Very interesting case Jack - but nothing whatsoever to do with Brexit - just an example of what happens when you encounter some complete and utter "jobsworth", arsehole of a [not so] civil servant. The Home Office will, undoubtedly lose the appeal case, The Home Office just going through the motions to waste taxpayer's money and tick all the boxes, it makes their lawyers money.

The situation as mentioned in the article linked to is covered in the GFA which in turn has got nothing to do with anyone, other than the Governments of the UK, Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland.

It most certainly is NOT the concern of the EU, the next case to be raised will be by Lord Trimble who views the changes the EU are insisting on in Northern Ireland actually break the GFA - again makes money for lawyers.

Here, by the way, is how matters relating to the border in Ireland were viewed by Michel Barnier in a "fly-on-the-wall" TV Documentary commissioned by Guy Verhofstadt, broadcast earlier this year by the BBC. The documentary was titled "Brexit: Behind Closed Doors" the two sets of comments come from the time Theresa May was about to put her deal before the House of Commons:

Michel Barnier [October 2018]:

"Our deliberate tactic must be to "isolate" any discussion of the Ireland question to make sure there is no settlement so as to keep the UK in negotiations for the next two to three years."

Verhofstadt's PR Team [14th November 2018]:

First PR rep: "We got rid of them! - We kicked them out! It took us two years but we got rid of them on our terms and on our conditions."

Second PR rep: "We finally turned them into a colony. That was our plan from the first moment."

Anybody wants to view it the above exchanges are shown in Part Two of the Two Part Documentary, which must be classed as being one of the most idiotic things ever released as far anyone wishing the UK to remain in the EU goes. It does however give an accurate picture of how the British are viewed by those at the heart of the EU.

One great, but popular, misconception regarding EU red lines. Within the EU there is no such thing as freedom of movement - what there is - is free movement of labour. This means that you should be able to move wherever you want to within the EU provided that you have a job there waiting for you when you arrive. No problem with visiting musicians and bands who are normally on tour who are going to play at festivals or booked gigs and who can clearly demonstrate that to anyone wishing to know.


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Subject: RE: Brexit and music
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 11 Sep 19 - 11:21 AM

Import duty was lowered from £35 to £15 very quietly. Thus constituting a stealth tax. But in a "no deal" Brexshit would help pay for the mess. Until people wised-up, and by then they would buy from UK sources and import duty would have been paid anyway. Win Win, but still underhand.
No, 'import duty' was not lowered. I think what you refer to was the lowering of the threshold for paying VAT on imports. That threshold is currently £15. The threshold for paying 'Customs Duty' (also known as 'import duty') is £135. For goods below that value no Customs duty is charged. There is also Excise duty which is charged on tobacco and alcohol at levels below that £135 threshold.
Tax and Customs for goods sent from abroad: HMRC


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Subject: RE: Brexit and music
From: Howard Jones
Date: 11 Sep 19 - 05:52 PM

Observer, the free movement (of labour) as you quite rightly say allows people to move around within the EU provided they have a job to go to. However, as cannot have failed to escape your notice, following Brexit we will not be in the EU. British musicians entering the EU will be subject to whatever immigration and customs controls are put in place, and the same will apply to EU musicians coming here. At present we are being told this will require visas, carnets and musical instrument certificates.

The purpose of the Single Market is to remove such restrictions. The vote to leave the EU was a vote to restore them between the EU and the UK. Of course we were promised that we would get a new agreement which would avoid this and which would give us all the benefits with none of the obligations, but that was always a naive hope. And it is to be expected that the EU will have tried to shaft us - their aim is protect the EU's interests, not those of the UK. They were never going to give us an easy ride, and why should they?


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Subject: RE: Brexit and music
From: GUEST,Observer
Date: 12 Sep 19 - 03:17 AM

"British musicians entering the EU will be subject to whatever immigration and customs controls are put in place, and the same will apply to EU musicians coming here. At present we are being told this will require visas, carnets and musical instrument certificates."

ONCE we are OUT of the EU - We are not yet OUT of the EU - Now go back and read the opening post of this thread and the title of the link provided:

UK bands NOW have to pay import duty and VAT on ALL merchandise before even entering Europe to tour

Ever tried getting into Canada, USA or Australia? Lots of hoops to jump through, but loads of artists, bands and performers do it - the rewards being well worth the effort. So when we leave the EU you just add the countries of Europe to that list. Beatles toured and worked in Europe long before we joined the EEC - where did they make their money though? Wasn't Europe, from 1964 to 1970, the Beatles had the top-selling US single one week out of every six weeks, and the top-selling US album one week out of every three weeks.


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Subject: RE: Brexit and music
From: GUEST,Peter
Date: 12 Sep 19 - 04:34 AM

Sloppy writing by Rawmusictv but the "NOW" that you emphasise comes from a quote from advice that will only apply AFTER Brexit.


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Subject: RE: Brexit and music
From: Howard Jones
Date: 12 Sep 19 - 04:40 AM

This discussion is about the possible impact of Brexit on music and musicians. Of course we are talking about the future, because Brexit is still in the future. But when it happens, which is likely to be soon, changes will happen. Those changes aren't accidental or unintended, we are leaving the EU precisely in order to be able to impose controls on trade and visitors to the UK, but of course it works in the other direction too. This can only be avoided if an agreement is reached which will mitigate these effects. At present that doesn't seem imminent, but who knows?

Yes, some bands do manage to tour in the US and other countries, but many others find the costs and bureaucracy too much. I can speak from experience - my band was offered a tour in the US, but the costs and practical difficulties compared with the financial rewards ruled it out for us. For example, to get a working visa for the US you have to attend an interview in person at the US Embassy in London, and have a letter of sponsorship from the promoter in the US (in fairness, the UK makes it just as difficult for visiting musicians). Whereas when we had a gig in Paris last year it was no different from a gig in the UK, we just loaded the van and set off.

Plenty of bands toured in Europe before we joined, and they all faced delays and hassle over the paperwork. No one is suggesting that it won't be possible to tour after Brexit, just that it will become more difficult and more expensive, and in some cases the figures won't stack up to make it worthwhile.


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Subject: RE: Brexit and music
From: Rain Dog
Date: 12 Sep 19 - 07:23 AM

They had a short piece on BBC Radio 4 last night about Brexit & Music

Front Row

How will Brexit impact Classical Music? John is joined by the Association of British Orchestras director Mark Pemberton, opera impresario Wasfi Kani from Grange Park Opera and Claire Fox, The Brexit Party MEP who is on the Culture Committee of the European Parliament. They discuss whether classical musicians will be particularly affected by Brexit, deal or no deal.

Front Row - Brexit & Music

It starts at approx. 14.45

Not that things are much clearer after the discussion. It does illustrate how difficult it is for people to plan ahead when, after 3 years, no one is sure what you should be planning for.


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Subject: RE: Brexit and music
From: GUEST,Observer
Date: 12 Sep 19 - 09:39 AM

"Not that things are much clearer after the discussion. It does illustrate how difficult it is for people to plan ahead when, after 3 years, no one is sure what you should be planning for."

Totally agree about clarity, typical BBC interview with regard to anything to do with Brexit. One of the things said regarded calls for advice to HMRC - the reason they could not give any back last February is not so surprising, as under May and Hammond, the UK was never going to leave the EU at all and Hammond in particular had deliberately prevented work being done to prepare for us leaving on a no-deal basis. They still tour abroad outwith the EU and even although they said it was a pain - they still do it, and they will continue to do it. I got the distinct impression that they were rather over-egging the pudding when stating their case, particularly about the refundable "bond" to be paid and held by HMRC for the value of the instruments. The comment about double charges for our musicians playing in France for national insurance comes as no surprise - How typical of them. With "friends" like that who needs enemies.


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Subject: RE: Brexit and music
From: Jack Campin
Date: 15 Sep 19 - 01:47 PM

Nothing new in this, but well put and the voice of experience.

FB post from David Knopfler


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