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BS: Is this Brexit 4?

Mossback 10 Aug 19 - 01:21 PM
punkfolkrocker 10 Aug 19 - 12:44 PM
Iains 10 Aug 19 - 12:43 PM
DMcG 10 Aug 19 - 11:53 AM
Iains 10 Aug 19 - 10:42 AM
Steve Shaw 10 Aug 19 - 08:06 AM
Dave the Gnome 10 Aug 19 - 07:58 AM
Jim Carroll 10 Aug 19 - 07:56 AM
Steve Shaw 10 Aug 19 - 07:41 AM
Bonzo3legs 10 Aug 19 - 06:27 AM
Jim Carroll 10 Aug 19 - 05:51 AM
David Carter (UK) 10 Aug 19 - 05:50 AM
David Carter (UK) 10 Aug 19 - 05:47 AM
Steve Shaw 10 Aug 19 - 05:36 AM
DMcG 10 Aug 19 - 05:20 AM
Dave the Gnome 10 Aug 19 - 05:10 AM
Steve Shaw 10 Aug 19 - 05:02 AM
Dave the Gnome 10 Aug 19 - 05:00 AM
Joe Offer 10 Aug 19 - 04:32 AM
Jim Carroll 10 Aug 19 - 04:32 AM
Dave the Gnome 10 Aug 19 - 04:15 AM
Iains 10 Aug 19 - 04:04 AM
Jim Carroll 10 Aug 19 - 03:50 AM
DMcG 10 Aug 19 - 03:41 AM
Backwoodsman 10 Aug 19 - 03:37 AM
Backwoodsman 10 Aug 19 - 03:24 AM
DMcG 10 Aug 19 - 03:17 AM
Dave the Gnome 10 Aug 19 - 03:03 AM
DMcG 10 Aug 19 - 03:02 AM
Steve Shaw 09 Aug 19 - 05:38 PM
Backwoodsman 09 Aug 19 - 05:17 PM
Iains 09 Aug 19 - 04:53 PM
Backwoodsman 09 Aug 19 - 04:17 PM
Stanron 09 Aug 19 - 03:59 PM
Backwoodsman 09 Aug 19 - 03:59 PM
Raggytash 09 Aug 19 - 03:51 PM
Raggytash 09 Aug 19 - 03:35 PM
Stanron 09 Aug 19 - 03:35 PM
Iains 09 Aug 19 - 03:31 PM
Iains 09 Aug 19 - 03:24 PM
Mrrzy 09 Aug 19 - 03:19 PM
Dave the Gnome 09 Aug 19 - 03:16 PM
Mossback 08 Aug 19 - 12:51 PM
DMcG 08 Aug 19 - 12:50 PM
punkfolkrocker 08 Aug 19 - 12:49 PM
Raggytash 08 Aug 19 - 12:35 PM
Rain Dog 08 Aug 19 - 12:23 PM
Iains 08 Aug 19 - 12:18 PM
Raggytash 08 Aug 19 - 12:08 PM
David Carter (UK) 08 Aug 19 - 12:05 PM
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Subject: RE: BS: Is this Brexit 4?
From: Mossback
Date: 10 Aug 19 - 01:21 PM

Now, here's an interesting thought - mayhap this "Iains" character ACTUALLY IS Joe Offer!

Or a tag-team of Joe Offer & Bearded Bruce!


    Time to say bye-bye, kiddies. Please learn to discuss the topic of the thread, and to refrain from personal insults. Thank you. This thread is closed.
    -Joe Offer-

    Oh, and Mossback, we've tolerated you because you have been behaving reasonably well. But lately, you've gotten out of hand. Your membership is suspended. Send me a polite email August 18 or later, requesting reinstatement. Steve Shaw, you're next.
    Please remember that moderator actions may be discussed privately with Max or me or other moderators, but not in public Forum threads.


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Subject: RE: BS: Is this Brexit 4?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 10 Aug 19 - 12:44 PM

Iains - I'd be prepared to converse with you as I would any other mudcatter;
but your belligerent posting history has raised too many suspicions about who and what you are...

I'm not convinced 'you' are not just following directions on what links and ideas to post here...

That's me talking directly to 'you'...

I've made it clear enough I am not a member of any 'cabals',
and they probably wouldn't want me anyway.
I refuse to follow orthodoxies and leaders..

If anything, I may be some kind of non-conformist lefty libertarian
[pending googling on if they exist as a category,
and if it's a self identity I can feel comfy with]..
Maybe that's just another way of describing an old punk-hippy counter-culturalist from the west country...??
who knows...???

Whether you believe me is up to you...

If and when I think a real human called 'Iains' is actually communicating
on a meaningful level,
then I will respond with courtesy and some respect...

For the moment I've become more inclined to think 'you' are a minor cog in in an organised propaganda machine...


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Subject: RE: BS: Is this Brexit 4?
From: Iains
Date: 10 Aug 19 - 12:43 PM

I take it as face value, and it looks like the beeb did announce it:

Bombardier in Derby to build monorail trains for Cairo - BBC News

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-derbyshire-48435983

May 28, 2019 - Monorail trains for the Egyptian capital Cairo will be built in Derby. Bombardier Transportation will work with Egyptian firms on the Cairo ...Bombardier in Derby to build monorail trains for Cairo - BBC News
I would hope our national broadcaster carried out basic research prior to the release.


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Subject: RE: BS: Is this Brexit 4?
From: DMcG
Date: 10 Aug 19 - 11:53 AM

Bombardier Eygpt COntratc

I hope you are right, but there is nothing in Bombardier's press release to say it will be based in Derby. In fact the press release just says "Headquartered in Berlin, Germany, Bombardier Transportation employs around 40,650 people and its products and services operate in over 60 countries" so if they chose to run it from elsewhere it looks like they could.


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Subject: RE: BS: Is this Brexit 4?
From: Iains
Date: 10 Aug 19 - 10:42 AM

A piece in today's Guardian by Jonathan Freedland paints a bleak picture of the aftermath of a no-deal crash-out. The title says it all:
(This is the same guardian that lost £7million last year and was bailed out by a sugar daddy)

Here is a some spiffing economic news from that paragon of virtue GUIDO
"Fears over the damaged Whaley Bridge dam this week haven’t left the people of Derbyshire with much to cheer, particularly during unwanted visits from the Labour leader. At least they’ve now got some positive economic news that Derby-based train manufacturer Bombardier have won a £2.34 billion contract to make trains for the Cairo monorail, beating off Pharoah-cious competition from Chinese and Malaysian firms. Remainers still in de-Nile while Bombardier’s own Project Fear warnings get confined to the tomb of history…

It comes less than a week after Hitachi Rail announced a £400m investment in their County Durham plant. The good news just keeps Tutan-khamin’…

Did you like that?(as Fred would say)


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Subject: RE: BS: Is this Brexit 4?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Aug 19 - 08:06 AM

Less of the oxymorons, Dave!


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Subject: RE: BS: Is this Brexit 4?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Aug 19 - 07:58 AM

Agreed. But what is a viable alternative to no deal?

Come on you leavers of reasonable character! Let us have your thoughts on the best way forward.


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Subject: RE: BS: Is this Brexit 4?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Aug 19 - 07:56 AM

This morning's Times confirms that there will be no recession - according to Javid - just about clinches it, I would say, though he does say that it is necessary to create a bailout fund to assist companies now facing collapse.
Do these people not realise how stupidly disingenuous they are exposing themselves to be?)
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Is this Brexit 4?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Aug 19 - 07:41 AM

A piece in today's Guardian by Jonathan Freedland paints a bleak picture of the aftermath of a no-deal crash-out. The title says it all:

"A no-deal Brexit won’t be a clean break: this nightmare will go on for ever"

Anyone who thinks there's such a thing as a clean break is living in cloud-cuckoo land, in other words.


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Subject: RE: BS: Is this Brexit 4?
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 10 Aug 19 - 06:27 AM

Now here's a first - I'm hoping for the fall of this government, to be replaced by a government led by somebody upon whom we can rely. I'm thinking a Labour/LibDem coalition led by Hilary Benn.


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Subject: RE: BS: Is this Brexit 4?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Aug 19 - 05:51 AM

"Iains posts things that are politically obnoxious"
Ians post personal and racist comments about other members of this forum - that trancends politics into a new ball game
This has never been about Iains politics and you know it - you;'ve had it explained it to you often enough - you choose to ignore it
Nothing we can do about itt, it seems other than to hope you don't close another thread to defend him
Jim carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Is this Brexit 4?
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 10 Aug 19 - 05:50 AM

Joe, are you really going to argue that the Iains post of 04:04, 10th August, is not "plain obnoxious" as well as "politically obnoxious". And he made that post before yours appearing to draw that distinction.


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Subject: RE: BS: Is this Brexit 4?
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 10 Aug 19 - 05:47 AM

Electorates do not instruct. They appoint representatives.


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Subject: RE: BS: Is this Brexit 4?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Aug 19 - 05:36 AM

So, Dave, in a few weeks' time we will very likely be confronted by Johnson declaring that he's the man who will honour the instruction of the electorate and carry out the will of the people, come hell or high water, by Halloween. All I'm saying is that, yes, they are old, hackneyed arguments, but they work for him and will work for him again unless we can articulate effective responses. We have to be ready and it's no use for us to keep saying that much has changed since 2016 and we know more now than we did then (any other remainer here who winces every time you hear that?) He's got the easy bit. We will be accused of resurrecting Project Fear...

Might not go well, eh?


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Subject: RE: BS: Is this Brexit 4?
From: DMcG
Date: 10 Aug 19 - 05:20 AM

Looking to the short term future. There several reasons why it is in Mr Johnson's interest to hold a general election as early in November as possible, because it maximises his chances of taking the votes from the Brexit Party supporters and minimises people exposure to any problems arising from leaving. It also means if he wins he is home and dry for years, and if he loses he can blame any downsides of Brexit on Labour - "We won it, they wrecked it".

So it seems to me there is a case for Labour to say it certainly wants a general election but will not vote in support of one that takes place between say November and March the following year. Obviously that would not matter if the election arose from a vote of no confidence, but it would apply to any call by the PM under the Fixed Term Parliament Act. Then the Tories would have to have faced the first six months post departure and they would be responsible for addressing any issues.


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Subject: RE: BS: Is this Brexit 4?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Aug 19 - 05:10 AM

I try to, Steve. When it is brought up I point out the truth, as I have in this thread. But there is no point in going over it ad nauseum as tends to happen here.


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Subject: RE: BS: Is this Brexit 4?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Aug 19 - 05:02 AM

I agree that the stuff about the referendum being advisory is water under the bridge as far as getting anything changed, DMcG and Dave, but the lies about the instruction from the people, the will of the country, having to honour the result, etc, are about to be thrown back in our faces big-time by brexiteers in the likely forthcoming election and in any future referendum campaign. We have to have the arguments ready to counteract those lies. It IS true that the referendum was advisory. It is NOT true that we know the will of the people. It IS true that a huge amount has changed since 2016. Those points must be fleshed out and properly articulated. We do have the truth of it on our side, but, as ever, teasing it out is a damn sight harder than making up simplistic, populist, sloganising lies, especially in the current political climate. You can paint a slogan on a bus or a racist poster. Confronting people with the reality of what's about to happen, unless we can stop it, is another matter.


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Subject: RE: BS: Is this Brexit 4?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Aug 19 - 05:00 AM

Ok, Joe. You're the boss but can you point to any instance of me being obnoxious in the last few months? If so, I will unreservedly apologise. If not, maybe you need to consider who you aim your ire at more carefully.


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Subject: RE: BS: Is this Brexit 4?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 10 Aug 19 - 04:32 AM

Well, Dave,
Tolerating Iains, is more-or-less the price you and others of the "usual suspects" have to pay for your own obnoxiousness. Iains posts things that are politically obnoxious, but you "suspects" post things that are just plain obnoxious. If we take action against Iains, then fairness demands that we take action on the lot of you.
I suggest that you all be a lot more civil - including you, Mr. Shaw.
-Joe Offer-


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Subject: RE: BS: Is this Brexit 4?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Aug 19 - 04:32 AM

Only if we take the bait Dave
Nobody has to
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: Is this Brexit 4?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Aug 19 - 04:15 AM

It didn't take long did it. May as well close the thread now. It is obvious where it is going :-(


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Subject: RE: BS: Is this Brexit 4?
From: Iains
Date: 10 Aug 19 - 04:04 AM

Brexiteers take comfort in the assurances of the pig's head-screwing Bullingdon hooray-Henry that the referendum result was an "instruction"

I do admire a cogent well constructed argument. You always know when lefties have lost the argument, the insults start flying! The electorate expect their instructions to be followed.
As I quoted previously 'it is the people who control the Government, not the Government the people'. Both blair and brown promised a referendum and reneged, Cameron followed through. Compo does not appear to even know what day it is any more, if his deputy needs to put him in a taxi to the palace for an attempted coup.(I cannot see that turning out too well)
This argument about the referendum being advisory is getting tedious.
Article 50 was voted for by a huge majority. A general election was held with both major parties standing for leave. Now when our departure is on the wire the rabid remainiacs are still bleating 'not fair.'
You lost! After three years you really must get used to the idea. Your counter arguments are fatuous, vacuous and totally without substance.
Even ST. Gina has become the patron saint of lost causes.
This is what happens when reality collides with lefty la-la land.
Go hug a tree and console yourself man,and do not forget the sandals and rose tinted glasses so you may commune with nature more easily.
Meanwhile we brexiteers have urgent work to do, figuring out ways to scupper froggy fishing boats for a starters!

Tic toc, Tic toc!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hMM8dCelBFw


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Subject: RE: BS: Is this Brexit 4?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Aug 19 - 03:50 AM

I'd have thought discussion of the referendum has been surpassed by the obvious damage that the result has done to Britain
The economy has taken yet another knock and there is now talk of a recession - you can always tell whether things are likely when Ministers deny them, as Javid did yesterday.
Talk of whether the referendum was advisory is rather like Captain Smith of the Titanic giving a lecture on icebergs to the passengers
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Is this Brexit 4?
From: DMcG
Date: 10 Aug 19 - 03:41 AM

Quite so, Baccy. The leaflets and promises may have had some moral or political currency, but they had no legal significance.


I think that fishing quotation is really important for its wider ramifications. A no-deal does drop a lot of our obligations to others. But the media and propaganda tends to overlook that is also removes the obligations of others to us. Very rarely mentioned, I fear.


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Subject: RE: BS: Is this Brexit 4?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 10 Aug 19 - 03:37 AM

That was in response to your post of 03:02 AM of course, DMcG!


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Subject: RE: BS: Is this Brexit 4?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 10 Aug 19 - 03:24 AM

DMcG - nobody has said otherwise. My response was to Stan wittering on about that f**king leaflet and The Pig-Shagger’s Promise, neither of which had the authority to over-ride a Bill passed by Parliament and declare the referendum result ‘binding’.

Both Stan, and our RR-WETRF-B raise those things from time to time as though they had some legal authority. They had less authority than a fart in a hurricane.


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Subject: RE: BS: Is this Brexit 4?
From: DMcG
Date: 10 Aug 19 - 03:17 AM

I agree, Dave. We need to focus on the future. There was an interesting article by one of the Brexit MEPs saying he could see a shared interest between them and the LibDems in changing some of the election mechanisms. He wasn't exectly clear what he meant, because he said he was not keen on proportional representation, but he is right to the extent that the FPTP system does under-represent minorities.

The major parties are opposed to this, because obviously they risk losing some power. However, if the LibDems or some other party became Kingmaker, we could see an attempted revision to the voting system as part of the price, as we did with AV.


On another topic, there was an interesting snippet about fishing in, I think, the Independent:

Last month, Didier Guillaume, the French minister of agriculture and food, who also has responsibility for the French fishing industry, said that French fishermen would continue to fish in UK waters, even in the event of a no-deal Brexit.

"It is possible that, with Boris Johnson, we will have a hard Brexit. There is no circumstance in which one could prevent, in which Boris Johnson could prevent, French fishermen from fishing in British waters," he said.
In the event of a no-deal Brexit, key aspects of international fishing law are likely to be perceived in different and contradictory ways by different countries.


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Subject: RE: BS: Is this Brexit 4?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Aug 19 - 03:03 AM

This is all water under the bridge. My belief is that Cameron made a pigs ear (scuse the pun) of it and didn't have the guts to admit his mistake. Others have different opinions but none of us can change it.

The question now is, how can the government now satisfy the desires of most of its electorate? Forget this "you lost" business. No party in its right mind would alienate half of its electorate. Leaving without a deal will do that. Remaining will do that. I have given my ideas. Come on, leavers. How would you handle it? Other than by saying "fuck you", as the present administration seem to be doing :-(


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Subject: RE: BS: Is this Brexit 4?
From: DMcG
Date: 10 Aug 19 - 03:02 AM

I must admit to a certain lack of interest in the argument about whether the referendum was advisory or not. There is not the slightest doubt in law that the referendum was advisory only. Nor is there the slightest doubt that Parliament, by passing the bill to invoke article 50, exercised its sovereign rights to take that advice and make it effective in law. Of course they did not have to do this, but the essential role of Parliament is to take decisions, which it did.

It is also within the duty of Parliament to debate and potentially change its decisions when it thinks it appropriate, and it would still have that obligation even if the referendum had been legally binding.

All that is the past, and is only of relevance, really, in terms of how it affects current and future decisions. If Boris fights to stay on after a vote of no confidence, he can make the argument that it is line with the 2016 will of the people. But it one based on duty, not law. In theory anyway: in practice it is much more likely to be based on his self-interest.


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Subject: RE: BS: Is this Brexit 4?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Aug 19 - 05:38 PM

Brexiteers take comfort in the assurances of the pig's head-screwing Bullingdon hooray-Henry that the referendum result was an "instruction". It wasn't and it never could be, despite his vacuous promises that it would be. Why not? Because there was nothing in law, in the constitution, or anywhere else, to say that it could provide an instruction, impose an obligation or supply a mandate. Nothing that the pig-f**king necrophiliac said could change that. I mean, what part of "advisory" do you brexiteers not understand?


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Subject: RE: BS: Is this Brexit 4?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 09 Aug 19 - 05:17 PM

”Raggytash wrote:

As the result of the 2016 was only "advisory" how about the next government be it Conservative, Labour, coalition hold another referendum and clearly state "we will be bound by your, the peoples, decision.

Stanron replied:

I take it that you didn't read the leaflet regarding the last referendum when exactly that promise was made.”


And I take it that you didn’t read my post explaining the principle of ‘Sovereignty of Parliament’ that you people claim you voted Leave in order to uphold, nor the extract from the Briefing Notes to the EU Referendum Bill which I linked to in my later post?

For such a promise to have legal authority, it would need to be embodied in the Bill for a second referendum - something that wasn’t the case in the 2016 Referendum.


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Subject: RE: BS: Is this Brexit 4?
From: Iains
Date: 09 Aug 19 - 04:53 PM

So, let me get this right.

You were in favour of a majority of even one vote when "your" side prevailed in the 2016 referendum but NOW you want of majority of 65% plus to remain.

Explain the democracy of that little conundrum.


I seem to remember several posters insisting that the winning majority in the last referendum was insufficient. I merely repeat your own arguments back to you. What is your problem?

There is no democracy in that little conundrum, so why do you dispute Brexit?

If you insist on having your cake and eating it be careful you do not choke!


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Subject: RE: BS: Is this Brexit 4?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 09 Aug 19 - 04:17 PM

Here you go Stan... - Section 5 refers.


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Subject: RE: BS: Is this Brexit 4?
From: Stanron
Date: 09 Aug 19 - 03:59 PM

Raggytash wrote: As the result of the 2016 was only "advisory" how about the next government be it Conservative, Labour, coalition hold another referendum and clearly state "we will be bound by your, the peoples, decision.
I take it that you didn't read the leaflet regarding the last referendum when exactly that promise was made.


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Subject: RE: BS: Is this Brexit 4?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 09 Aug 19 - 03:59 PM

”I'm not questioning whether the word advisory was used in legislation but I do remember that £9 million leaflet that said quite clearly that the Government would implement the result, not be 'guided by it. They promised to implement it.”

Why do you Brexiteers find it so difficult to understand the principle of Sovereignty of Parliament - the very principle you claimed to be fighting for when you voted Leave?

An Act of Parliament can only be amended or revoked by Parliament - that is the basic founding principle of Parliamentary Sovereignty - and it is not within the power of the PM, or even the government, to amend or revoke an Act.

The EU Referendum Bill 2015 was advisory only and the government was not required to act according to the result. That is undeniable fact! Set out in the supporting documentation of the Bill, and pretty much in those words.

No matter what that bloody leaflet said, or however much it cost to produce, the Act was clear about the advisory nature of the Referendum, and the government did not have the power to over-rule the terms of the Bill.

I did have a link to the part of the documentation of the Bill containing the reference to it being ‘Advisory only’, but I’ve been unable to find it - sorry.


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Subject: RE: BS: Is this Brexit 4?
From: Raggytash
Date: 09 Aug 19 - 03:51 PM

Had a thought.

As the result of the 2016 was only "advisory" how about the next government be it Conservative, Labour, coalition hold another referendum and clearly state "we will be bound by your, the peoples, decision.

That way those of us on the remain side, if defeated, would have no comeback whatsoever. By the same token those the the leave side could have no comeback.

Hopefully then bridges between the opposing views could start to be rebuilt.


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Subject: RE: BS: Is this Brexit 4?
From: Raggytash
Date: 09 Aug 19 - 03:35 PM

So, let me get this right.

You were in favour of a majority of even one vote when "your" side prevailed in the 2016 referendum but NOW you want of majority of 65% plus to remain.

Explain the democracy of that little conundrum.


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Subject: RE: BS: Is this Brexit 4?
From: Stanron
Date: 09 Aug 19 - 03:35 PM

This is the first opportunity I've had to post to this thread since it's start. I don't think I've accused anyone of fanaticism in this or any other thread. If I have I'm quite happy to apologise.

I'm not questioning whether the word advisory was used in legislation but I do remember that £9 million leaflet that said quite clearly that the Government would implement the result, not be 'guided by it. They promised to implement it.

Of course that was two Governments away now and they had expected the opposite result.

As for the future, maybe Parliament will do a last minute ratification of Mrs May's deal rather than face the default no deal exit which will be automatic under current law.


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Subject: RE: BS: Is this Brexit 4?
From: Iains
Date: 09 Aug 19 - 03:31 PM

The goals of the EU in their own words
https://www.reddit.com/r/OutCampaign/comments/36ofm0/quotes_from_federalists_and_prointegrationists/


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Subject: RE: BS: Is this Brexit 4?
From: Iains
Date: 09 Aug 19 - 03:24 PM

Is Reclaim our sovereignty the same as Let's go back to when Britain ruled the waves?

No, its the same as "Make AmeriKKKa Great Again"

It is more like the proposed NAFTA becoming a supranational body and imposing its legislation on the subordinate national legislatures

The real answer with respect to sovereignty is complex and has no universal definition or acceptance. Trite disparaging putdowns just inflame the conversation and polarise responses. One view is below
https://halshs.archives-ouvertes.fr/halshs-00911482/document
But you also have to consider the stated aims of the EU
1)Harmonize taxation (a major headache for Ireland, whose preferential regime for multinationals could could take a hit and reduce GDP significantly)
2)Introduce majority voting on certain issues (eventually all)
3)Have an EU defense force(not Nato)
4)Have a common foreign policy (not working too well right now.eg Germany and navsl patrols around Iran)
No doubt other nasties are in the planning stage (Perhaps a supranational Gendarmerie to keep the peasants in line- first by practising on the yellow vests)
The EU is a supranational organization because member states surrender power in specific areas to the higher organization. Decisions taken by a supranational organization must be obeyed by the member states.
Essentially it is a power grab for federalisation and destruction of the nation state. This was hinted at in a two year old guardian article

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/sep/13/jean-claude-junckers-federalist-vision-for-the-eu-is-far-from-reality
all this was denied at the time but compare it with Von der Leyen's
acceptance speech and her stated goals.
Brexiteers believe
Winston S. Churchill — 'it is the people who control the Government, not the Government the people
Remainers believe
Jean-Claude Juncker - President of the European Commission

    "When it becomes serious you have to lie."
    "We decide on something, leave it lying around and wait and see what happens. If no one kicks up a fuss, because most people don't understand what has been decided we continue step by step until there is no turning back."
    "I'm ready to be insulted as being insufficiently democratic, but I want to be serious, I am for secret, dark debates."
    "Britain is different. Of course there will be transfers of sovereignty. But would I be intelligent to draw the attention of public opinion to this fact?"
    "There is a single legal personality for the EU, the primacy of European law."
    "If it's a 'Yes,' we will say "On we go!" and if it's a 'No' we will say "We continue!"
    “You would not create a European army to use it immediately”

I am all for a second referendum,but subject to the same constraints others have argued for on this forum. It will not alter Brexit unless remainers achieve a majority greater than 65% of the vote.


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Subject: RE: BS: Is this Brexit 4?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 09 Aug 19 - 03:19 PM

Mossback, kifkif. And thanks for the new and shorter thread, Stanron.


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Subject: RE: BS: Is this Brexit 4?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 Aug 19 - 03:16 PM

If the EU and UK cannot agree a deal, both will have to place tariffs on the other. It may be illogical, but that is how it works.

Source


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Subject: RE: BS: Is this Brexit 4?
From: Mossback
Date: 08 Aug 19 - 12:51 PM

Is Reclaim our sovereignty the same as Let's go back to when Britain ruled the waves?

No, its the same as "Make AmeriKKKa Great Again".


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Subject: RE: BS: Is this Brexit 4?
From: DMcG
Date: 08 Aug 19 - 12:50 PM


A lot of nonsense is spoken about what will and will not happen after Brexit. Until an agreement is reached we cannot be sure what will happen


What is nonsense and what isn't will be revealed in time. I just ask that those who insist it is nonsense are willing to take responsibility for their decision. It is not the EU's fault, or May's fault or anyone else if, knowing where we are now and what is predicted, you decide it must go ahead. As adults we are responsible for our decisions. Blaming someone else if it doesn't work out as you hope is not.


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Subject: RE: BS: Is this Brexit 4?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 08 Aug 19 - 12:49 PM

Did the £ recently dip below the $ in some currency exchanges..

I switched on the news near the end of a report so couldn't confirm what I thought I'd partly heard...???


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Subject: RE: BS: Is this Brexit 4?
From: Raggytash
Date: 08 Aug 19 - 12:35 PM

The price hikes we have experienced and will continue to experience are caused, in the main, by the fall in the value of the pound since the referendum.


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Subject: RE: BS: Is this Brexit 4?
From: Rain Dog
Date: 08 Aug 19 - 12:23 PM

A lot of nonsense is spoken about what will and will not happen after Brexit. Until an agreement is reached we cannot be sure what will happen BUT the government is working on most imports being duty free in the event of a no deal Brexit. That will then be reviewed after a period of time


Most imports tariff-free under no-deal plan


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Subject: RE: BS: Is this Brexit 4?
From: Iains
Date: 08 Aug 19 - 12:18 PM

Why would we impose tariffs on imported food? That would be totally irrational


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Subject: RE: BS: Is this Brexit 4?
From: Raggytash
Date: 08 Aug 19 - 12:08 PM

Agreed David. I see that every week when I do our weekly food shop.


** When I am in the UK that is.


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Subject: RE: BS: Is this Brexit 4?
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 08 Aug 19 - 12:05 PM

Raggy, that is a hugely important point which the sewer press see fit to ignore, and it will be worse if we are hit by tariffs on all imported foodstuffs. Just wander round the shelves of your supermarket and see how much of the stuff we buy comes from the EU, OR IS COVERED BY EU TRADE AGREEMENTS. A no deal brexit is about a 40% hike in the cost of our food.


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