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Peter Yarrow me-too'ed out of concert?

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Joe Offer 08 Jul 19 - 02:02 PM
Mossback 08 Jul 19 - 02:00 PM
punkfolkrocker 08 Jul 19 - 01:27 PM
bobad 08 Jul 19 - 01:23 PM
gillymor 08 Jul 19 - 01:06 PM
punkfolkrocker 08 Jul 19 - 12:58 PM
bobad 08 Jul 19 - 12:51 PM
bobad 08 Jul 19 - 12:50 PM
Dave the Gnome 08 Jul 19 - 12:50 PM
Megan L 08 Jul 19 - 12:48 PM
punkfolkrocker 08 Jul 19 - 12:14 PM
bobad 08 Jul 19 - 12:02 PM
meself 08 Jul 19 - 12:01 PM
Jeri 08 Jul 19 - 11:24 AM
Mossback 08 Jul 19 - 11:20 AM
GUEST,henryp 08 Jul 19 - 10:57 AM
Stilly River Sage 08 Jul 19 - 09:52 AM
punkfolkrocker 08 Jul 19 - 09:51 AM
gillymor 08 Jul 19 - 09:34 AM
GUEST 08 Jul 19 - 03:09 AM
Megan L 08 Jul 19 - 02:12 AM
Steve Shaw 07 Jul 19 - 08:56 PM
EBarnacle 07 Jul 19 - 07:31 PM
Steve Shaw 07 Jul 19 - 06:58 PM
Mossback 07 Jul 19 - 06:15 PM
Steve Shaw 07 Jul 19 - 04:46 PM
Big Al Whittle 07 Jul 19 - 03:37 PM
Mossback 07 Jul 19 - 02:46 PM
GUEST 07 Jul 19 - 02:40 PM
Jeri 07 Jul 19 - 02:35 PM
Steve Shaw 07 Jul 19 - 02:29 PM
punkfolkrocker 07 Jul 19 - 02:25 PM
meself 07 Jul 19 - 02:20 PM
Big Al Whittle 07 Jul 19 - 02:01 PM
punkfolkrocker 07 Jul 19 - 01:49 PM
Mossback 07 Jul 19 - 11:36 AM
punkfolkrocker 07 Jul 19 - 11:32 AM
punkfolkrocker 07 Jul 19 - 11:27 AM
GUEST 07 Jul 19 - 11:10 AM
GUEST,henryp 07 Jul 19 - 10:59 AM
punkfolkrocker 07 Jul 19 - 10:23 AM
Mossback 07 Jul 19 - 10:19 AM
Steve Shaw 07 Jul 19 - 09:52 AM
punkfolkrocker 07 Jul 19 - 09:11 AM
Backwoodsman 07 Jul 19 - 09:06 AM
Jim Carroll 07 Jul 19 - 08:50 AM
punkfolkrocker 07 Jul 19 - 07:59 AM
gillymor 07 Jul 19 - 06:42 AM
GUEST 07 Jul 19 - 05:49 AM
Steve Shaw 07 Jul 19 - 04:02 AM
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Subject: RE: Peter Yarrow me-too'ed out of concert?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 08 Jul 19 - 02:02 PM

I think we've exhausted the subject. Thread closed.


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Subject: RE: Peter Yarrow me-too'ed out of concert?
From: Mossback
Date: 08 Jul 19 - 02:00 PM

There's really no up side to feeding the boobad, gang.


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Subject: RE: Peter Yarrow me-too'ed out of concert?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 08 Jul 19 - 01:27 PM

Bob - good, look after it in case I forget which number it is...


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Subject: RE: Peter Yarrow me-too'ed out of concert?
From: bobad
Date: 08 Jul 19 - 01:23 PM

bob - I don't come after you.

Lol, the evidence is there in black and white but.....whatever. Anyway, I've got your number now.


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Subject: RE: Peter Yarrow me-too'ed out of concert?
From: gillymor
Date: 08 Jul 19 - 01:06 PM

Megan, It was not my intention to bully anyone in my last post but I will rephrase it-

"Megan, regarding your last post, I was 17 in 1970 and certainly indulged in some of the "indiscreet" behavior that was prevalent among my peers but I never, even in an altered state, attempted to force myself on anyone, juvenile or adult and consequently never wound up in prison on a sexual assault charge."

Is that less objectionable? I'd sincerely like to know.


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Subject: RE: Peter Yarrow me-too'ed out of concert?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 08 Jul 19 - 12:58 PM

bob - I don't come after you.. you present yourself up for having the piss taken..

btw.. jim, steve, bwm, dtg, dick, etc..

chaps you might insist are on the same side as me..

They can all attest that i'm not slow in criticising them if I feel there's good valid reason..

So quit with the whiny me me me persecution complex...


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Subject: RE: Peter Yarrow me-too'ed out of concert?
From: bobad
Date: 08 Jul 19 - 12:51 PM

Previous post directed to Punkie.


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Subject: RE: Peter Yarrow me-too'ed out of concert?
From: bobad
Date: 08 Jul 19 - 12:50 PM

Funny that you come after me but ignore the ones who initiate the antagonism - I wonder why that is.


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Subject: RE: Peter Yarrow me-too'ed out of concert?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Jul 19 - 12:50 PM

You missed loads, Jeri. You need to think more British :-)


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Subject: RE: Peter Yarrow me-too'ed out of concert?
From: Megan L
Date: 08 Jul 19 - 12:48 PM

Now I remember why I left the cat before I was tired of the pervasive atmosphere of bullying, people jumping on bandwagons where they are so busy listening to their own little band they ignore or attack anyone of moderate views.

Gillymor in the 70's I was fighting! Not against men but women who were trying to strip me of my freewill . I was brought up to think for myself, make my own decisions and treat each person as an individual not as a trumpet or a flag for me to fall in behind.


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Subject: RE: Peter Yarrow me-too'ed out of concert?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 08 Jul 19 - 12:14 PM

Bob - no one else cares about your boring petty little feuds..

you'd be a right pain in the arse on a night out with a bunch of friends and acquaintances...


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Subject: RE: Peter Yarrow me-too'ed out of concert?
From: bobad
Date: 08 Jul 19 - 12:02 PM

(I noticed bobad made a ham-handed (anti-kosher humor not intended) attempt to troll regarding the"J" word, but that didn't last.)

I guess you missed the post disparaging me that I was reacting to. Somehow I'm not surprised.


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Subject: RE: Peter Yarrow me-too'ed out of concert?
From: meself
Date: 08 Jul 19 - 12:01 PM

Anyone who says attitudes weren't different in the '70s wasn't paying attention or has forgotten. That doesn't necessarily excuse any given misdeed, but, as the man says, it may help explain it.

Example. Age 20 or so, I was sitting in the kitchen of a communal home with a small mixed group of slightly-older counter-culture-ish friends. One of the young women was telling us that a friend of hers, who was a high-school teacher, had spent the weekend in bed smoking dope with a couple of his female students. While no one expressed out-and-out approval, no one expressed disapproval - it was clearly regarded as 'edgy' behaviour, a case of getting one up on 'the man' by transgressing 'artificial' social taboos. There was a bit of chuckling and giggling.

There was a lot of that kind of thinking going on at that time. Again, not saying what it does or does not excuse; just giving a little context.


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Subject: RE: Peter Yarrow me-too'ed out of concert?
From: Jeri
Date: 08 Jul 19 - 11:24 AM

I think it's true every potential battle defaults to one of several usual topics. Catholic priests and abuse. Racism. Folk/not folk. Ewan MacColl.

Was Ewan MacColl ever involved in a sex scandal? Was he interested in pubescent girls, or was he possibly gay. Was he ever a priest?

What other general flame war categories did I miss? (I noticed bobad made a ham-handed (anti-kosher humor not intended) attempt to troll regarding the"J" word, but that didn't last.)

If Joe wants to BS this, or close it, I agree. It stopped being about any specific subject sometime around 04 Jul 19, 01:23 PM.

Yeesh. I used to love Mudcat because of the smart people who posted here...


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Subject: RE: Peter Yarrow me-too'ed out of concert?
From: Mossback
Date: 08 Jul 19 - 11:20 AM

Thank you, Stilly. Wish I'd been able to sum it up as succinctly as you've done.


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Subject: RE: Peter Yarrow me-too'ed out of concert?
From: GUEST,henryp
Date: 08 Jul 19 - 10:57 AM

Edna O'Brien was born in 1930 at Tuamgraney, County Clare, Ireland, a place she would later describe as "fervid" and "enclosed". From 1941 to 1946 she was educated by the Sisters of Mercy – a circumstance that contributed to a "suffocating" childhood". "I rebelled against the coercive and stifling religion into which I was born and bred. It was very frightening and all pervasive. I'm glad it has gone."

Here she observes how women were treated as she grew up;
https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/m0006pjj/imagine-2019-4-edna-obrien-fearful-and-fearless
imagine...2019: 4. Edna O'Brien: Fearful... and Fearless
Contains some strong language and some upsetting scenes.
Duration 65 mins; First shown 10:30pm 7 July 2019; Available for 29 days

Ireland has made great social advances since then.


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Subject: RE: Peter Yarrow me-too'ed out of concert?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 08 Jul 19 - 09:52 AM

Bob Dylan observed in the 1960s that The Times They Are A-Changin' (first song in this 1/2 hour performance). We are discussing one of the changes that took a lot longer than it should have.

What is changing regarding women and how men treat them? #MeToo is outing men who took advantage of their positions of power over women to claim sexual advantage, whether women wanted it or not. It isn't tarring every sexual encounter—it is aimed at men who acted with impunity, not those who were already caught and punished. (#MeToo is also outing a few powerful women who preyed on young men. It's an equal opportunity movement.)

This is why the torches and pitchforks are uncalled for at this time. Festivals can choose to hire or not, as they wish, depending on the information they have, but they are refusing to hire a reformed character, not an unindicted molester.


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Subject: RE: Peter Yarrow me-too'ed out of concert?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 08 Jul 19 - 09:51 AM

Jim - my nan thought it hilarious when she was flashed...

That was nothing compared to being bombed by the Luftwaffe and evacuated to the wild west of England...

Your polemical history lesson is a good read,
but you are tending to over generalise in order to support your own argument...

I suspect you were never in a rock band back in the 60s and 70s...

Young women we knew were far stronger and independent than you give them credit..
Even if you suggest they were on the pill and being promiscuous
as a result of being manipulated by the dominant patriarchal hegemony..
They seemed to be having a damn good time enjoying it on their own terms...

BUT we do agree about the forgotten women, like my mum - working class, under educated,
and stuck in lousy long hours badly payed jobs;
cleaning, washing, and wiping arses in old folks retirement death camps...
They were the mass underclass who the middle class aspirational professional feminists academics and journalists
didn't seem to give give a toss about.
They were more concerned with the glamorous lifestyle
of women aping successful tory men in industry and the media, and academia..

In the late 70s and early 80s,
most of the younger feminists I knew,
who were students, musicians, artists and actresses,
they were cool and inspirational.
They shaped my personality and beliefs as I developed into manhood.
But the older middle aged feminists most prominent in the media
tended to be mostly obsessed with their own career self advancement..

Sod my mum, as far as their selfish priorities seemed to be...


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Subject: RE: Peter Yarrow me-too'ed out of concert?
From: gillymor
Date: 08 Jul 19 - 09:34 AM

Megan, you seem to have bought into the "everyone was doing it" argument. I was 17 in 1970 and certainly indulged in some of the "indiscreet" behavior that was prevalent among my peers but I never, even in an altered state, attempted to force myself on anyone, juvenile or adult and consequently never wound up in prison on a sexual assault charge.


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Subject: RE: Peter Yarrow me-too'ed out of concert?
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Jul 19 - 03:09 AM

"It was an era of real indiscretion and mistakes"
No it wasn't - that was the way it was and it was very deliberate
Women were allotted their place in society from birth and groomed to be home-makers and baby producers - our laws were created to consolidate this and the taught religions established this as a social norm
The vows women took in church included that they "loved, honoured and "OBEYED" their spouses
It was written into the British statute that it was legal for a husband to rape his wife in 1736 and that law was not removed until 1991
Women were officially inferior to men and wives were the property of their husbands
That situation only began to change with the Suffrage movement, which unfortunately operated mainly on behalf of the better-off - unfortunately, the Suffragettes sold out their cause by colluding to send a generation of young men to their deaths in W.W.1

Women have fought imprisonment and open contempt to change that situation and, to a degree, have been successful, but for many, they still have a long way to go
Equality of Pay and working conditions still remains a remote deram for most women
No accident - no mistake - very deliberate

For some, women remain very second-class citizens

Since when has showing your willie to kids been "a joke", I wonder
I didn't think it funny when it happened to me as a child - nor did my wife when it happened to her
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Peter Yarrow me-too'ed out of concert?
From: Megan L
Date: 08 Jul 19 - 02:12 AM

I wonder how men of the men in here have ever made a joke that denigrates women or slapped a woman's bum or wolf whistled how many of you remember everything you did when you were stoned or drunk?


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Subject: RE: Peter Yarrow me-too'ed out of concert?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Jul 19 - 08:56 PM

Heartily agreed. And apologies for the truncation of my last post.


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Subject: RE: Peter Yarrow me-too'ed out of concert?
From: EBarnacle
Date: 07 Jul 19 - 07:31 PM

As mentioned above, there is a significant difference between forgiving and forgetting. I was molested [though my own ignorance] at Boy Scout camp when I was 11 years old. Should I forget? NO. I taught my son how to respond in the same circumstances so it would not happen him.

Did I forgive the asshole who molested me? Yes, but it took a long time. I have better things to do with my life than to let anger and the memory of his abuse control my life. He has to live with himself.

I wonder where the woman and her sister who were involved in the incident are now, both emotionally and cognitively. Have they moved on or are they still in the anger/blaming circle? Their circumstances should really be the driver of this discussion.


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Subject: RE: Peter Yarrow me-too'ed out of concert?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Jul 19 - 06:58 PM

Well, Bill, he "also said" that after he got caught. I have no issue with them wot apologise after they've been nicked. But you won't catch many of them apologising BEFORE they've been caught.

I'm sure he's a luvly feller. Or am I that sure...well, not him. No prob. But I won't be booking him, buying his albums nor going to his gigs. It's a ountry.


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Subject: RE: Peter Yarrow me-too'ed out of concert?
From: Mossback
Date: 07 Jul 19 - 06:15 PM

And made excuses along the lines of it's what we did, it was of its time

What he actually said was: "It was an era of real indiscretion and mistakes by categorically male performers."

Which is an explanation, not an excuse. Its also a fact.

He continued: "I was one of them. I got nailed. I was wrong. I'm sorry for it."

He has also said:

"“I fully support the current movements demanding equal rights for all and refusing to allow continued abuse and injury — most particularly of a sexual nature, of which I am, with great sorrow, guilty,” he said. “I do not seek to minimize or excuse what I have done and I cannot adequately express my apologies and sorrow for the pain and injury I have caused in this regard.

However, beyond any of my words and feelings expressed, I will walk the walk, do all I can to make amends, and dedicate myself to helping bring more justice and peace to the world.”

Yup, there's a real dangerous desperado for sure.


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Subject: RE: Peter Yarrow me-too'ed out of concert?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Jul 19 - 04:46 PM

Yep, Bill, he apologised. And made excuses along the lines of it's what we did, it was of its time, etc. Now look at here. I care not a jot what other people want to either condemn, indulge or ignore. I'm simply telling you what I think. And what I think is that sexual predators are a bit wicked and despite their excuses and apologies I won't let them off the hook. I can still smile nicely, I can talk politics and can say hello in the street. But I'm not going to their gigs or buying their records. No issue for me if you take a different line. That's all. He did what he did and condemned himself to lifelong side glances. That's what happens. And that's right.


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Subject: RE: Peter Yarrow me-too'ed out of concert?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 07 Jul 19 - 03:37 PM

I wish I'd been sexually desirable enough for celebrities to lure me into compromising situations.


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Subject: RE: Peter Yarrow me-too'ed out of concert?
From: Mossback
Date: 07 Jul 19 - 02:46 PM

Are you suggesting that he's, er, too old to be punished?

FFS, Steve, of course not. But Yarrow WAS punished for what he did 50 years ago 50 years ago. And he freely admitted what he did. And he apologized - repeatedly- for doing it. And he's done a world of good since in various spheres of humanitarian activism. Should we "forget what he did"? Of course not. Neither should he continue to be punished and persecuted.

it doesn't follow that they treat every offence as equivalent and equal.

Ah, but they HAVE done & continue to do so. Its well documented - check it out. Start, e.g., with the aforementioned Al Franken. Or Garrison Keillor.

Again, when do you figure the Me Too true believers will get around to the serial rapist in the White House?


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Subject: RE: Peter Yarrow me-too'ed out of concert?
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Jul 19 - 02:40 PM

"If anyone wonders how lynch mobs became a thing..."
Similar was being said about abusive priests not so long ago
Came to an end when their church collapsed around them
Some people never learn
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Peter Yarrow me-too'ed out of concert?
From: Jeri
Date: 07 Jul 19 - 02:35 PM

If anyone wonders how lynch mobs became a thing...


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Subject: RE: Peter Yarrow me-too'ed out of concert?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Jul 19 - 02:29 PM

"'not-too serious' incident, but Me Too appear to believe there can be no exceptions"

Precisely. Thus treating rape and a lewd comment as equivalent and equal offences."

If indeed Me Too believe that there can be no exceptions (I haven't studied their modus operandi), it doesn't follow that they treat every offence as equivalent and equal.

"Exactly what abuse are these women at risk of from an 81-year-old?"

I know a man who is eighty years old who is in the middle of a fifteen-year jail term for historical child abuse (dating back to the fifties and early sixties). He is absolutely no danger to anyone any more. But he ruined lives. Are you suggesting that he's, er, too old to be punished?


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Subject: RE: Peter Yarrow me-too'ed out of concert?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 07 Jul 19 - 02:25 PM

meself - I know that.. wasn't it part of the point I was making...???

..about distinctions, degree of evil intent, etc...


btw.. the word for pervs who with a fetish for the extremely elderly is a good 'un...


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Subject: RE: Peter Yarrow me-too'ed out of concert?
From: meself
Date: 07 Jul 19 - 02:20 PM

"But by common usage, a paedo is a paedo, is a paedo...."

I see you haven't been keeping up: in common usage now, a 'paedo' is anyone sexually attracted to those below the age of consent in the jurisdiction concerned. We no longer have a term for those attracted to pre-pubescents, as far as I know.


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Subject: RE: Peter Yarrow me-too'ed out of concert?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 07 Jul 19 - 02:01 PM

I wonder what I did ....fifty odd years ago.

Answers on a post card.

1st prize...a week in Mansfield.


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Subject: RE: Peter Yarrow me-too'ed out of concert?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 07 Jul 19 - 01:49 PM

Jim - I'm thinking back over 20 years to banter about Gary Glitter
when news first appeared about his computer hard drive..

General tone was something like

"lucky bastard, all that fame and money, and shagging jailbait groupies.."

Then rumours started appearing that he'd raped a baby...
Which completely changed the views of average bloke in a West country pub..

Whatever the facts of his crimes - he got caught and dealt with.
Maybe not as harshly as some would have demanded...

But now to points of law...

Consenting underage teenage girl and raped baby..
Two extremes now conflated in public opinion as the same crime.
Degrees of criminal intent seem immaterial.
Paedo is the only word in use condemning either, and all ages in between.
Even though there are existing definitions distinguishing between paedos,
and sex with post pubescent underage teens..
But by common usage, a paedo is a paedo, is a paedo....

Consent is no defence in law, even if the minor was only one day away from the age of consent.
In such narrowly marginal cases, is consent even considered a mitigating factor for sentencing...???
Should the offender be judged to be as evil as a baby raper...???

I've now read up on Yarrow.
His offence seems non-consensual by most reasonable standards.
Perhaps he was let off too lightly..

Certain Rolling Stones seem to be teflon coated...


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Subject: RE: Peter Yarrow me-too'ed out of concert?
From: Mossback
Date: 07 Jul 19 - 11:36 AM

the women who are constantly at risk of abuse, should have the right to ask that he should not be booked

Exactly what abuse are these women at risk of from an 81-year-old?

Any criminal is quite likely to have his/her past record taken into consideration

And his/her "future record" - provided by a psychic or necromancer presumably - as well?


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Subject: RE: Peter Yarrow me-too'ed out of concert?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 07 Jul 19 - 11:32 AM

.. oh..and I hope this debate doesn't sink to the level of..

"if you don't agree with my views about paedos,
then there must be something very suspicious in that regard about you...!!!???
"...


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Subject: RE: Peter Yarrow me-too'ed out of concert?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 07 Jul 19 - 11:27 AM

""Pity the downtrodden paedo""


Jim - you might be getting a bit carried away here...

I don't see anyone saying such a daft thing...???

If they got caught they deserved their just punishment..
If they haven't been caught yet, and think they got away with it,
then it's about time they get what's coming to them...

simple enough.. innit..


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Subject: RE: Peter Yarrow me-too'ed out of concert?
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Jul 19 - 11:10 AM

"Thus Yarrow should suffer for the sins of others?"
No - he should suffer for his own sins - those of taking advantage of his privileged position in order to abuse two children
Nobody is suggesting he be locked away and have the key thrown away - just that those who are in the position to do so have the right not to book him - and that the women who are constantly at risk of abuse, should have the right to ask that he should not be booked
'Might have done'
Any criminal is quite likely to have his/her past record taken into consideration so that it can be judged whether he is likely to repeat his crimes
What makes me howl here is that if, say Corbyn, was guilty of such a crime the press (and some here, no doubt) would be screaming for hanging, drawing and quartering to be brought back   

For me, one of the most sickening aspects of these revelations is the foreknowledge that went before the exposure.
Weinstein's predatory behaviour was a running joke in Hollywood yet it took a few brave women nay-sayers to bring him to book
The BBC was fully aware of Savile's reputation with children he was given access to yet they covered it up.
The hierarchy of the church not only ignored the rapist priests, but they moved them on in order that they could go on raping.
It's only now beginning to emerge just how deep this problem has penetrated THE POP INDUSTRY (bad taste pun intended)
Yet here we have decent, intelligent people all chorusing "Pity the downtrodden paedo".   
Sorry (lads (and lass) - I don't buy it
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Peter Yarrow me-too'ed out of concert?
From: GUEST,henryp
Date: 07 Jul 19 - 10:59 AM

As Jim Carroll said; "now the world is dominated by a "go grab some pussy if it turns you on" American President."

Two faces of America;
1. A music festival has disinvited folk singer Peter Yarrow of Peter, Paul and Mary over his 1970 jail sentence for indecent liberties with a 14-year-old girl. The 81-year-old Yarrow was to appear Sept. 8 with a performance painter.
2. Donald Trump Delivers Address at US Air Force Academy Graduation - May 30, 2019

Meanwhile, in the UK;
1. Brexit Party MEP Ann Widdecombe has seen her one-woman show cancelled after suggesting science may "produce an answer" to homosexuality.
2. A leading businessman has been granted an injunction against The Telegraph to prevent this newspaper revealing alleged sexual harassment and racial abuse of staff.

Ray Davies was right - it's a mixed up, muddled up, shook up world.


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Subject: RE: Peter Yarrow me-too'ed out of concert?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 07 Jul 19 - 10:23 AM

Steve - re: Gary Glitter...

I am mostly a lefty, but fairly right wing on law and order..
perhaps more so than a lot of conservatives...

I couldn't give a toss if Glitter rots and dies in prison,
or is free but stays hidden away out of sight.
AS long as he is robustly prevented from re-offending...

I'd even turn a blind eye if he got his share of punches and kicks in the vans and corridors of police custody...

He is a vile human being.

I know for a fact the local Somerset community were so in awe of him living in the area
they joked in envy about his jailbait house parties...
You can put that down to "it was the 80s" and "That sort of thing is normal for zummerzet.."
But he was tolerated and enabled.
There are rumours one of my cousins went to school with 15 year old girls who went to his parties.
She may even have been one of them.
It's the sort of thing no one ever talks about in that locality..

However, as evil as the man is,
I'll still enjoy his greatest hits - but discretely on headphones,
in case the neighbours hear and stir up a lynch mob...

He is by no means the only despicable artist folks have to make such difficult personal decisions about...

An old folkie recording artist was sentenced for child abuse somewhere in the west country recently.
[no.. not Harper.. a more obscure one hit wonder singer..]
I noticed it wasn't mentioned on mudcat...

[or if it was, it wasn't front page news...]


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Subject: RE: Peter Yarrow me-too'ed out of concert?
From: Mossback
Date: 07 Jul 19 - 10:19 AM

Well now, lets see-

"not-too serious" incident, but Me Too appear to believe there can be no exceptions

Precisely. Thus treating rape and a lewd comment as equivalent and equal offences. Which is obviously bollocks.

People are treating this as an individual case, while, in fact it is part of a whole outlook

Thus Yarrow should suffer for the sins of others?

His lewd behavior in the presence of minors could have continued after this episode and preceded it.

So now its prosecute and punish and stigmatize people for what they MIGHT have done or MIGHT do? What's next, the thought police?

I figure it's better to err on the side of the victim and potential victims

To the point where the person under consideration is the one victimized?

if people in the music industry don't wish to avail themselves of his services I quite understand.

Rather like those bakers who didn't wish to bake a cake for 'cause they don't like faggots?

Then there's the howling mob that lynched Al Frankin because he acted like a jerk- nothing more serious. I assume you approve of and applaud that as well?

Perhaps that same mob can apply their talents to the serial rapist in the White House.


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Subject: RE: Peter Yarrow me-too'ed out of concert?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Jul 19 - 09:52 AM

Absolutely agree with all of gillymor's post. A couple of things here. He committed a crime for which he's served his punishment according to the law. He gets his "second chance" by dint of the fact that he wasn't incarcerated for ever. But that second chance comes with caveats, and there's a fair bit of conflating going on here. Public opinion isn't punishing him. There is no "court of public opinion." We are not talking about him still being punished by some law or other. The law is no longer interested in him. He will have done hundreds of gigs I'm sure since the offence. The organisers and punters either didn't care or didn't know or a mixture of the two. That's all fine by me. It's just that I personally wouldn't have gone to those gigs. That's not me punishing him. That's me refusing to hold my nose. He's a child abuser and I'm not, so I find it odd that I'm criticised for demurring while he's being stood up for. Incidentally, I've seen all his gushing sorrow, etc., for what he did. I note that one excuse (yes, excuse) was that that's what people did in those days. Well that don't wash with me, because I for one didn't and wouldn't have. That's not me being self-righteous, pfr. That's me being normal, unlike him. I also noted from the contemporary reports that the 14-year-old had been obliged to resist his advances. No casual accident, was it then? I wouldn't bandy around unfounded suspicions as to whether he did it before or since, but I know what I think and what I think informs my attitude to him. That's how it should be and I respect anyone's right to have a different attitude.


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Subject: RE: Peter Yarrow me-too'ed out of concert?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 07 Jul 19 - 09:11 AM

Jim - one more time .. I don't care about Yarrow..
He is not my concern...
For me he is just entry into a broader discussion in this thread...

Obviously he deserves justice one way or the other,
but no one should suffer unfairly in the court of public opinion.

Or at worst be beaten and burnt to death by halfwit thugs on a Bristol housing estate...
Especially when innocent of all accusations from an over righteous lynch mob of idiots...

Kiddie fiddlers do require a balance of punishment and treatment.
But it should be evaluated and served objectively by a calm headed justice system..

Wealth & power should be no let off..

Anyway, basically we are mostly in agreement on "Me Too" and the relevant issues...


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Subject: RE: Peter Yarrow me-too'ed out of concert?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 07 Jul 19 - 09:06 AM

”I do believe, where children are concerned, extra caution should be applied”

I’m sure we all do Jim, as someone who worked with children I know I do.

But this thread is about a venue cancelling a performer’s gig over something he did fifty years ago, was prosecuted for, and served his prison sentence. No cover-ups, no repeats of the offence.

Completely different, unrelated circumstances.


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Subject: RE: Peter Yarrow me-too'ed out of concert?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Jul 19 - 08:50 AM

"BUT I am criticizing the aggressively vociferous self righteous zealots and their lynch mob mentality
that stirs up false accusations and violence against innocent people..."
I don't think that applies heer P - Yarrow did what he did and was punished for it - no question.
I do believe, where children are concerned, extra caution should be applied, but that's it
The cases of abusive celebrities continues to be an issue, more revelations about Kevin Spacey this morning (we have similar problems in Ireland at The Gate Theatre)
Until the entertainment and artistic movements clean up their act we rely largely on organisations like 'me too' - especially now the world is dominated by a "go grab some pussy if it turns you on" American President
Jim
(waddya mean "most of the time" !!!


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Subject: RE: Peter Yarrow me-too'ed out of concert?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 07 Jul 19 - 07:59 AM

"It saddens me when intelligent people refer to their efforts as "self-righteous rants""

Jim - you've got the wrong end of the stick...

I wasn't referring to "Me Too"..

I've stated earlier that they are a much needed movement for justice.

Nor am I referring to calm objective reasonable thinkers on this issue like yourself [most of the time],
and most others in this thread

BUT I am criticizing the aggressively vociferous self righteous zealots and their lynch mob mentality
that stirs up false accusations and violence against innocent people...
Or demands the infliction of disproportionately severe punishment on the most minor offenders.

I've made it more than clear I don't care about Yarrow as an individual.
I wouldn't have shed a tear for Gary Glitter if he'd been hung in Thailand
[or wherever it was he was rearrested for persisting in his serial abuse]

But it's the principles of either give 'em a 2nd chance,
or give 'em a life of shunning and vilification
that deserve rigorously intelligent rational non-emotive debate...

We certainly should not be shouted down, or guilted into silence,
by folks who habitually rely on those discussion ending strategies...


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Subject: RE: Peter Yarrow me-too'ed out of concert?
From: gillymor
Date: 07 Jul 19 - 06:42 AM

Yep, once he committed a sex crime against a minor and confessed to it he introduced an element of doubt about his behavior that rightfully should follow him to the end of his days. Yarrow was 32 years old at the time of this incident and most people I've known have pretty much calibrated their moral compass by that age so it's not inconceivable to me that his lewd behavior in the presence of minors could have continued after this episode and preceded it. I may be mistaken about him but I figure it's better to err on the side of the victim and potential victims and not on the side of a self-confessed sex offender. I wish Mr. Yarrow all the best and am not arguing that he be subjected to further punishment by the law but if people in the music industry don't wish to avail themselves of his services I quite understand.


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Subject: RE: Peter Yarrow me-too'ed out of concert?
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Jul 19 - 05:49 AM

"Who knows..."
And who else? - they used to be called 'Peter Paul and Hairy' in Liverpool!!
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Peter Yarrow me-too'ed out of concert?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Jul 19 - 04:02 AM

...And he got caught. Once...

Who knows...


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