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BS: electric cars, when....?

Big Al Whittle 04 Jun 19 - 04:07 PM
Stanron 04 Jun 19 - 04:38 PM
DMcG 04 Jun 19 - 05:01 PM
Big Al Whittle 04 Jun 19 - 06:17 PM
Stanron 04 Jun 19 - 06:22 PM
Black belt caterpillar wrestler 04 Jun 19 - 06:24 PM
Big Al Whittle 05 Jun 19 - 01:11 AM
Dave the Gnome 05 Jun 19 - 01:48 AM
DMcG 05 Jun 19 - 01:50 AM
Big Al Whittle 05 Jun 19 - 02:14 AM
Jack Campin 05 Jun 19 - 03:23 AM
Black belt caterpillar wrestler 05 Jun 19 - 03:34 AM
Iains 05 Jun 19 - 03:56 AM
David Carter (UK) 05 Jun 19 - 06:10 AM
DMcG 05 Jun 19 - 08:25 AM
Iains 05 Jun 19 - 10:04 AM
punkfolkrocker 05 Jun 19 - 01:04 PM
keberoxu 05 Jun 19 - 02:38 PM
Mr Red 05 Jun 19 - 03:28 PM
JHW 06 Jun 19 - 02:28 PM
Dave the Gnome 06 Jun 19 - 02:31 PM
Stanron 06 Jun 19 - 03:07 PM
Dorothy Parshall 06 Jun 19 - 10:28 PM
Black belt caterpillar wrestler 07 Jun 19 - 03:23 AM
robomatic 07 Jun 19 - 08:57 PM
Dave the Gnome 08 Jun 19 - 03:16 AM
Charmion 08 Jun 19 - 11:47 AM
robomatic 08 Jun 19 - 12:11 PM
JHW 08 Jun 19 - 01:12 PM
Dave the Gnome 08 Jun 19 - 01:53 PM
robomatic 08 Jun 19 - 10:04 PM
Stanron 09 Jun 19 - 06:08 AM
Thompson 09 Jun 19 - 01:06 PM
robomatic 09 Jun 19 - 09:09 PM
Big Al Whittle 09 Jun 19 - 09:32 PM
robomatic 10 Jun 19 - 12:00 AM
Stanron 10 Jun 19 - 02:38 AM
Mr Red 10 Jun 19 - 05:19 AM
Dave the Gnome 10 Jun 19 - 06:28 AM
Mr Red 10 Jun 19 - 09:12 AM
Mr Red 10 Jun 19 - 09:22 AM
JHW 10 Jun 19 - 04:16 PM
robomatic 10 Jun 19 - 04:21 PM
Mr Red 11 Jun 19 - 03:40 AM
robomatic 11 Jun 19 - 03:53 PM
Black belt caterpillar wrestler 11 Jun 19 - 04:26 PM
Mr Red 13 Jun 19 - 03:47 AM
robomatic 15 Jun 19 - 08:33 PM
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Subject: BS: electric cars, when....?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 04 Jun 19 - 04:07 PM

my car is very old. i will have to get a newer one before too long.

what i need to know is, how long are we going to be allowed to use petrol cars?
i am seventy now - if i get another petrol car - will i still be able to drive another ten years or sp. always hoping i live that long.


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Subject: RE: BS: electric cars, when....?
From: Stanron
Date: 04 Jun 19 - 04:38 PM

If you like petrol engines you could buy a classic. They won't ban them. You may not be allowed to drive in London but some of us would see that as a bonus. Modern petrol engines are very economical, don't pollute too much and and have very low road tax.

I get the impression that electric cars are a bit like Windows operating systems, expensive experiments that don't work all that well. Batteries just don't last long enough or hold enough charge.

I would like a hydrogen cell car, when they come down in price and the fuel infrastructure is there.


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Subject: RE: BS: electric cars, when....?
From: DMcG
Date: 04 Jun 19 - 05:01 PM

Banning petrol cars will be very difficult - it is not going to make any government popular with anyone who owns one. So it is more likely they will ban production/sale of new petrol cars and use that to fade them out over an extended period. Resale of existing cars would also be a vote loser, so I doubt if that would happen either.   But there may be more and more congestion charges and similar schemes to discourage you from using a petrol car.


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Subject: RE: BS: electric cars, when....?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 04 Jun 19 - 06:17 PM

i don't feel any great attachment to petrol engines.    i couldn't afford a classic car anyway. i just wondered if they planned to make us use electric cars any time soon.


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Subject: RE: BS: electric cars, when....?
From: Stanron
Date: 04 Jun 19 - 06:22 PM

As DMcG suggests Mayoral congestion charges will be the stick. Low tax will be the carrot. I don't think the technology is really there yet for battery powered cars.


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Subject: RE: BS: electric cars, when....?
From: Black belt caterpillar wrestler
Date: 04 Jun 19 - 06:24 PM

As far as I can tell the push is for hybrid cars at the moment as they are beginning to realise that pure electric cars have not evolved far enough to meet everyone's needs.

No-one seems to be talking about electric lorries which is a much bigger problem.

Robin


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Subject: RE: BS: electric cars, when....?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 05 Jun 19 - 01:11 AM

will they make us buy a hybrid any time soon?

That wouldn't be too bad. There are a lot of Prius cars on ebay for less than two grand. One as low as a thousand.


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Subject: RE: BS: electric cars, when....?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 05 Jun 19 - 01:48 AM

One of my work colleagues has just got a used Yaris hybrid. He had it at Kwik fit for an MOT and it needed a rear HI light bulb. Kwik fit said they could not change bulbs in it as, due to the complexity, it was a Toyota dealer only job! Dunno if they were spinning him a yarn or not but higher on going costs could be a consideration if you are budget concious.


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Subject: RE: BS: electric cars, when....?
From: DMcG
Date: 05 Jun 19 - 01:50 AM

I drive a Prius hybrid. No problems at all with it, beyond the fact the boot/trunk is much smaller than my previous car, which can be an inconvenience.


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Subject: RE: BS: electric cars, when....?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 05 Jun 19 - 02:14 AM

Kwik fit have stitched me up in the past. They offered a free breaks check. Then they came up with an extortionate quote for a new set of pads. I said - could they give me my car back - I knew people who could do the job for less than half that.

They said were not allowed to put my car back together in a unsafe state.

Kwik fit - be afraid, very afraid.


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Subject: RE: BS: electric cars, when....?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 05 Jun 19 - 03:23 AM

Kwikfit are just acting like an OO-gauge version of the car industry as a whole.

There is no such thing as a sustainable car. Decades ago cars passed the point where half a car's resource cost was incurred before you first started it: the ratio will have got much worse since, with greater fuel efficiency and mch more resource- and energy-intensive materials used in manufacture. And batteries are among the worst components from that viewpoint. The plastics and composites used in modern cars are also far more difficult and polluting to recycle than steel.

What electric power for cars does is shift the pollution problem from the air of First World cities to the mining and recycling towns of the Third World, and the future generations everywhere who will have to survive in a burning, poisoned planet.

There is nothing an individual can do to destroy the world that comes anywhere close to operating a private car. It's a uniquely destructive technology, far out beyond any historical precedent.

And the shits who still use them KNOW this.


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Subject: RE: BS: electric cars, when....?
From: Black belt caterpillar wrestler
Date: 05 Jun 19 - 03:34 AM

I have a hybrid Yaris. So far no problems with it but I do take it to a Toyota dealer for servicing as I don't believe that the complexity of the hybrid system is understood by your average back street garage.

A couple of things I have noticed.
It is more efficient in summer. One reason is that the battery is more efficient at higher temperatures, another is that the heating system needs the petrol engine to run to warm you up.
The battery is recharged when running down hill but here in the Pennines it is quite common to have it fully charged long before you reach the bottom so you are "missing out" on some free energy.
I reckon to get 40-50 mpg in winter and 60-70 mpg in summer. A trip across North Wales gave me about 71 mpg until I hit the motorway on the way back. The ups and downs were the right frequency to keep the battery charging up to nearly full.
Motorway speeds do bring down the mpg but town driving is excellent as you are using electric a lot then.
One thing they don't mention is that there doesn't seem to be a way to jump start another vehicle from it.
I have to have a 4x4 as well living where I do for the winter snow and ice.
It is more affected by crosswinds on the motorway than my Yeti, which surprised me as it looks more aerodynamic, is quite heavy for its size and otherwise feels quite solid.
I am now quite used to it being an automatic, which it has to be for the hybrid system.

Robin


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Subject: RE: BS: electric cars, when....?
From: Iains
Date: 05 Jun 19 - 03:56 AM

Another perspective:

https://setis.ec.europa.eu/setis-reports/setis-magazine/materials-energy/electric-vehicles-and-critical-metals-jamie-speirs

Presently most rare earths come from China.


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Subject: RE: BS: electric cars, when....?
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 05 Jun 19 - 06:10 AM

China has not yet, at least in public, mentioned turning off that particular tap. However if it does, the effect on consumer electronics would be felt first. Huawei may in the end be the only realistic supplier. Pity they don't yet make electric vehicles.


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Subject: RE: BS: electric cars, when....?
From: DMcG
Date: 05 Jun 19 - 08:25 AM

You make some interesting points, Jack. I don't disagree with them, but there are further factors. If you buy a used car, it has already incurred all the production costs and acquired the debt (as it were) of its disposal. So while the demand for used cars has some effect on a person who buys new (because they get a contribution to the cost by reselling), buying used vehicles is relatively 'green'.


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Subject: RE: BS: electric cars, when....?
From: Iains
Date: 05 Jun 19 - 10:04 AM

Some figures quote up to 4.5kg kg of rare earths in a hybrid car. Also lithium is used for the batteries. Although not a rare earth it is widely scattered at low concentrations. Like everything else the answer is not simple. Electric cars compete with modern electronics and green energy options (particularly wind turbines) for rare earths. China has the largest reserves followed by India and Vietnam that both together equal the reserves of China. A long way behind comes India and Australia. The link below shows how far more elements are involved in modern life compared to ancient windmills

https://theconversation.com/mining-for-metals-in-societys-waste-43766
Realistically battery technology needs to make a quantum leap in efficiency and ease of charging before offering a replacement for internal conmbustion engines. This is apart from the competition for vital resources to produce them. Like oil and gas reserves are finite.
Perhaps the way to go is to ration energy. One trip to the supermarket versus 5 hours of central heating. Some figures quote UK households burn through 4000kw/hrs of electricity each year, the US double that.
Many parts of the third world would be ecstatic to have electric light during the hours of darkness.


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Subject: RE: BS: electric cars, when....?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 05 Jun 19 - 01:04 PM

I never had much luck keeping Scalectrix cars on the track..
Cornering was always a problem...


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Subject: RE: BS: electric cars, when....?
From: keberoxu
Date: 05 Jun 19 - 02:38 PM

Here in eastern Massachusetts in the US,
I have seen Teslas on the streets and roads.
They blend in, appearance-wise, with the rest of us in
our petroleum-fuel autos.

There are shopping centers and shopping malls near
the Massachusetts Turnpike ("MassPike" for short)
which have reserved spaces, and chargers,
for electric cars within the big outdoor parking lots.

Elon Musk manages to be in the news a lot here.
But a lot of the stories are negative of late.
He starts endeavors like gangbusters,
but the follow-through is where he flags.

Don't know any more really.


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Subject: RE: BS: electric cars, when....?
From: Mr Red
Date: 05 Jun 19 - 03:28 PM

No-one seems to be talking about electric lorries which is a much bigger problem.

Tesla have promised. But when? The beauty of trucks is that the batteries can be in the tractor but the larger ones in the trailer. Because trailers sit for periods being loaded/unloaded, they can be charged then.

Electric cars are the future because the infrastructure is mostly there everywhere and charging stations are easy to add. Hydrogen infrastructure isn't there and is harder to get started. The momentum is with electric and growing because the path is easy. And making hydrogen is power hungry, so no greener in reality. But battery life is an issue, financially and recycling wise.

Anyone thought about compressed air? Renault have a small car.

But nothing is safe in an accident. Petrol, hydrogen, 400V DC, compressed air. Power - clues in the name.

And my problemo is towing a very light caravan (250Kg ish) - small electric cars probably wouldn't be homologated for towing, not that I have investigated it.

To answer Big Al - there is suggestions that 80 is a wise threshold on when to hand in your licence, I know people who have. And you probably have had the letter from the DVLA and had to pay the opticians to verify your eyes.


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Subject: RE: BS: electric cars, when....?
From: JHW
Date: 06 Jun 19 - 02:28 PM

Try not to turn over a new Leaf.


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Subject: RE: BS: electric cars, when....?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 06 Jun 19 - 02:31 PM

JHW - :-D


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Subject: RE: BS: electric cars, when....?
From: Stanron
Date: 06 Jun 19 - 03:07 PM

The hydrogen fuel cell is the future. Unlike battery power the technology is already here. The fuel can be produced by renewable energy at times when the grid doesn't need it. No fossil fuels are needed. All that's needed is the supply infrastructure and lower prices. I live in Manchester. The nearest fuel supplier appears to be in Sheffield. Liverpool has one planned. If I could afford one I'd buy one but I'm afraid it's bangers for me.


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Subject: RE: BS: electric cars, when....?
From: Dorothy Parshall
Date: 06 Jun 19 - 10:28 PM

Glad to read about Robin's Yaris hybrid! Tomorrow I will take delivery of a Prius hybrid. Yaris hybrid not an option in Quebec. I look forward to the fuel savings and less guilt when I drive long distances.

My son is considering full electric but stalling over the cost. I am happy to "afford" the Prius! Hope my lower gas costs help pay for it.


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Subject: RE: BS: electric cars, when....?
From: Black belt caterpillar wrestler
Date: 07 Jun 19 - 03:23 AM

We looked at the possibility of getting a pure electric car but it was the restricted range that settled it for us. We have a wind turbine so charging at home could be in effect done for free but it is the time taken to recharge when away from home that is the problem.
Our harpist friend in Lancaster has an electric van but won't go more than 40 miles from home in it because of the restricted range leaving her uncertain about becoming stranded.

Robin


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Subject: RE: BS: electric cars, when....?
From: robomatic
Date: 07 Jun 19 - 08:57 PM

Probably the most economical way is also the simplest. If you want to get by the next ten years with the greatest economy, get a non-hybrid Yaris. The technology is ironclad. You won't have to worry about any battery other than the 100+ year old lead acid starter battery. No electric motor. And the driving technology (radar collision avoidance and backup video camera) is presumably available down the full range of Toyota's fine spectrum of vehicles. And for many years, getting a good mechanic for a non-hybrid vehicle should be easier and less expensive. It's gonna be awhile before a third party mechanic is gonna shove his hands into an engine compartment full of voltage carrying wires!

Hydrogen cell technology is more iffy than battery technology because hydrogen storage is an issue, just as battery storage for electric cars is still developing. But, the better car companies are usually including in the purchase price some manner of recycling the batteries, as Toyota does with the Prius. Plus, you get to recover braking energy with a battery/ supercapacitor system. Plus you can recharge off your home electric system.

I know a gentleman in his 80s who has been happy with his Toyota Prius for years.

And of course, past the next ten years few individuals will be able to afford the insurance to actually drive their own cars. And past that cars won't come with human controls.


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Subject: RE: BS: electric cars, when....?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Jun 19 - 03:16 AM

I toyed with the idea of a hybrid when I renewed my car earlier this year. Weighing up all the pros and cons though I realised it was quite an inefficient option for my type of journeys. I stuck to getting a 3 year old diesel and, for the third time, the best for me was a Ford C-Max. This one is a 1.5 and I am currently averaging 70mpg. The participate filter is supposed to be very efficient too. I must say though, if the public transport system was good enough, I would happily do without my own car.


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Subject: RE: BS: electric cars, when....?
From: Charmion
Date: 08 Jun 19 - 11:47 AM

With our cold winters and long distances, Canadians are looking at a long wait for conversion to full-electric vehicles — absent a sharp improvement in storage battery technology. I like the idea of a hybrid, but still gag on the price tag.

Truth to tell, I’m still mourning the passing of my diesel-fired 1986 VW Golf ...


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Subject: RE: BS: electric cars, when....?
From: robomatic
Date: 08 Jun 19 - 12:11 PM

I had a friend with a Diesel Golf in the 80s. He liked to tell of how when it was still under warranty, the dealership had to replace everything north of the main gasket, and a year later, they had to replace everything south of the main gasket.
Modern diesel engines, and I think this applies to modern diesel automobiles, have to have an extra tank of urea, about 10% the volume of the fuel tank. It gets added to clean up the diesel combustion process and can reduce emissions by over 90%. I don't think it does anything on the particulate side, and those particulates when not captured by some sort of filter can wind up in lungs.


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Subject: RE: BS: electric cars, when....?
From: JHW
Date: 08 Jun 19 - 01:12 PM

Railway trains could have plenty of room for batteries, like artic lorries noted above, but they prefer miles of overhead wires to bring them electricity. Maybe its back to Trolley Buses.

Re Range Anxiety I do know a couple with a Leaf who always leave the FC early or I think it goes home without them.


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Subject: RE: BS: electric cars, when....?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Jun 19 - 01:53 PM

Does anyone know why there is not a hybrid that runs entirely off electric motors but has a small diesel generator to top up the batteries? Aren't diesels at their most efficient running at a steady pace for long periods?


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Subject: RE: BS: electric cars, when....?
From: robomatic
Date: 08 Jun 19 - 10:04 PM

DTG: I've wondered the exact same thing, specifically about the Chevy Vol. Why not furnish an option which allows you to mount a small generator to contantly charge the battery? Engine combined with generator built and sized to functions optimally at a constant speed for generation. And if you know you're going to be using the car purely for short commutes, dismount the little genset and leave it in the garage.


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Subject: RE: BS: electric cars, when....?
From: Stanron
Date: 09 Jun 19 - 06:08 AM

Diesel electric has been a standard in UK trains for what seems to be forever. The Top Gear team under Jeremy Clarkson made one and, of course, it wasn't a thing of beauty. It would enable an electric car to travel more than fifty miles, and it would allow a viable heater in winter but it would be a polluter, it would have to have a fuel tank and a radiator, a starter motor, all the stuff that an electric motor doesn't need.

The hydrogen fuel cell is the answer. It's obvious.


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Subject: RE: BS: electric cars, when....?
From: Thompson
Date: 09 Jun 19 - 01:06 PM

Big Al, how much do you drive?

A friend in her early 80s is thinking the same way as you; she's considering something like a Leaf +2, I think it's called. Her logic is that the tax, insurance, NCT (=MOT), maintenance and parts, parking and petrol - even for the very little driving she does - on her big old car is around €8,000 a year, and so it's worth her paying over €30,000 for an electrical car which will have no NCT, free fuel and relatively little maintenance (because new).

However, she'll in fact be replacing two diesel cars with one electric, making the cost/benefit even better.

And she figures an electric car will, as she depressingly puts it, "see her out".

The other advantage of getting an electric car when one's becoming old and decrepit is that it's effectively an automatic, so you learn how to work it fairly easily, and have less in the way of complex unconscious decisions to distract you while driving.

If the decision were mine (I've long since given up cars; I can hire a car if I really need one, but mostly ride the bike and on the rare occasions when I really need a lift, kind friends help me out) there's a system called Go Car in Ireland - I suppose it's probably international - which allows for occasional hires that aren't too dear.

But it depends on what you want to drive for. If you're going to late-night gigs far away, yes, you need it. If it's shopping, you can ride the bike for some and get deliveries for other shops. I'd really be inclined to plan out exactly when, where and why you drive every week before making this decision.


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Subject: RE: BS: electric cars, when....?
From: robomatic
Date: 09 Jun 19 - 09:09 PM

The only thing against the all electric for someone who wants to be 'seen out' is: it requires some adapting/ learning/ familiarization. Electric cars have a different feel, and are so quiet you might not know they're on. Since they are all automatic, one has to become accustomed to the digital interface which behaves differently than the old style. For instance, in the old days, a few years back the individual switched the headlights on or off. I've been driving a Chevy which automatically turns the lights on when it thinks they're needed. One can control the overall on or off by knowing where the master light switch is, otherwise the Chevy defaults to automatic. Now I've got a Toyota which has the manual 'on', manual 'off' AND automatic setting all on the same control stalk. When one gets their car serviced, the shop may not leave the controls the same way. All through the winter I saw cars driving with no headlights, and this is because the folks inside were depending on the automatic setting which was no longer set to automatic. Hope this makes sense.

Stanron, where do you think hydrogen fuel comes from? Most of the time it comes from natural gas which has been passed through a reformer. That means all that waste material in the non-hydrogen part of the gas still needs to be dealth with. You need to research why the world has not gone to fuel cells if they're as ready as you say. They are not. And if they're ready, they're not clean.

It IS a great time to be an engineer!


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Subject: RE: BS: electric cars, when....?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 09 Jun 19 - 09:32 PM

I don't do many gigs at all these days. I've always only done gigs I can get home to at night. I did a few tours when I was younger -but that life doesn't suit me at all.

No, my main need of a car is for my wife who is disabled with fheumatoid arthritis. I need it for shopping; for little outings for her and hospital and doctor's visits.

Nowadays I do less than ten thousand miles a year.

I buy my cars at the auction block these days, as cheaply as I can. This present car is fourtenn years old - although some of that time - I ran two cars - and a campervan at one point.

I just wondered if I bought a car that was non-hybid, or electric - an ordinary petrol car - if it stands to be made illegal anytime in the next few years.


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Subject: RE: BS: electric cars, when....?
From: robomatic
Date: 10 Jun 19 - 12:00 AM

No.


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Subject: RE: BS: electric cars, when....?
From: Stanron
Date: 10 Jun 19 - 02:38 AM

Hydrogen can be produced by the electrolysation of water. You know that all that renewable electric power that is produced when nobody wants to use it? It could be used to produce hydrogen which could be used to power personal transport. If there is not a will there wont be a way.


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Subject: RE: BS: electric cars, when....?
From: Mr Red
Date: 10 Jun 19 - 05:19 AM

The hydrogen fuel cell is the future.

On that logic, Betamax was a better format. So what happened?

The answer is "content", it produced momentum. Better is not always the way the world works. The world wants it** NOW. And they have it in their own home. The distribution is already in place across the world. And with existing technology/manufacturing PV is available NOW at reasonable cost in areas where distribution petrol &/or electricity is expensive. And Electric cars might serve as a reservoir of electricity for the home &/or grid. Something hydrogen can't do. And hydrogen needs energy to manufacture, which will be electric. And power is power, why add one more translation and, an as yet not available, distribution network, with many caveats on storage/safety.

Hydrogen has a lot going for it, except for a soupçon of reality and sheer momentum of the competition. Electric has issues but it has the NOW factor. Compressed air has a lot of pluses, not the least the tech is understood & there (ish) in every filling station, but no momentum.

If anyone here can predict the future - would you PM me with some sure fire lottery numbers.............


** "it" is not always what the marketeers think - Sony knew what they wanted, Elon Musk sort of knows in his off-beat way.


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Subject: RE: BS: electric cars, when....?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Jun 19 - 06:28 AM

Big flywheel driven by clockwork. It could be wound up using wind or solar power. It could also tilt for corners.

Why not? :-)


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Subject: RE: BS: electric cars, when....?
From: Mr Red
Date: 10 Jun 19 - 09:12 AM

flywheel ....... It could also tilt for corners.

The Swiss tried that, spin topped-up at bus stops. Bus, had 2 contra-rotating flywheels to avoid the tilt in the wrong directions. Broke its back on a hump-backed bridge. AFAIK they only made one in the 50/60s. Probably fatigue from many similar changes of pitch &/or turning at speed.

Torquing of flywheels. Ever driven a boxer motorbike (shaft drive - engine & shaft longitudinal)? Accelerating round a corner causes a torque reaction - either into or against the corner. You do get used to it. Walter Villa campaigned a BMW boxer with the engine upside down, early on. He was good enough to be a 250 & 350 World Champ on a more conventional bike. 60's/70's era.

There was a British bike that had the (transverse) engine rotate the non-conventional way and the flywheel effect either worked against corners at racing speeds - &/or riders never got used to it.

Flywheels can exert a lot of force in the "normal" direction, if they are used to extract energy.


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Subject: RE: BS: electric cars, when....?
From: Mr Red
Date: 10 Jun 19 - 09:22 AM

It could be wound up using wind

perpetual motion machine?

Yea right.


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Subject: RE: BS: electric cars, when....?
From: JHW
Date: 10 Jun 19 - 04:16 PM

not a car I know but seeing a ride-on mower today thought they don't need much range and most of the time stand waiting for grass to grow so could be chargeing, perhaps less bother than can of petrol


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Subject: RE: BS: electric cars, when....?
From: robomatic
Date: 10 Jun 19 - 04:21 PM

I've had a BMW motorcycle. I remember being more comfortable in right hand 'banks' than left hand, but I don't think I can put it down to gyroscopic forces!

There have been and may still be flywheel temporary power systems, the presentation I saw over ten years ago was for an industrial quality unit, quite heavy of course, which could provide power to supply peak electrical demands. It was useful for a few minutes at most to accomplish what is called 'peak shaving'. As a means of mass automotive power, it is a non-starter, pun intended.


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Subject: RE: BS: electric cars, when....?
From: Mr Red
Date: 11 Jun 19 - 03:40 AM

I don't think I can put it down to gyroscopic forces

Torque reaction (under acceleration), exactly similar (sic) the recoil of a gun.


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Subject: RE: BS: electric cars, when....?
From: robomatic
Date: 11 Jun 19 - 03:53 PM

I'm a little confused, Mr. Red. I was on a BMW with a shaft drive, there was undoubtedly some sort of torque reaction when feeding the engine gas, but in a banking motorcycle turn this is usually minimal, and I can't recall noticing it. When banking spinning wheels, there is a gyroscopic counter force, but I never was able to separate it out. After all, the engine frame and transmission were together far more massive than the wheels, and the reaction there was too subtle for me.


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Subject: RE: BS: electric cars, when....?
From: Black belt caterpillar wrestler
Date: 11 Jun 19 - 04:26 PM

I certainly had to adjust the steering when I put my foot down hard in my old Peugeot 205 GTi because of torque reaction.

Robin


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Subject: RE: BS: electric cars, when....?
From: Mr Red
Date: 13 Jun 19 - 03:47 AM

I'm a little confused, Mr. Red.

You habituate to it. Taking nuerologically: your system 1 just does it and doesn't trouble system 2.

If you accelerated hard at the apex you would notice it when the bike was new to you, because your system 1 had not habituated. And any new machine puts your system 2 on alert to reason what is happening.

FWIW the brain operates on two levels which psychologists refer to as System 1, the intuitive brain which runs on experience and System 2 is the much slower logical, reasoning part of the brain that collects and figures new experiences, unless system 1 has already dealt with the problem. And con men know this and prime peoples' system 1 with words and actions.

Torque reaction on front wheel drive cars can be easily felt on loose road surfaces, but I think that is caused by the joint that allows the drive wheels to point left & right (eg Universal Joint). It is the acceleration that does it, not constant speeds. Much like traveling at 100 miles an hour is not felt but accelerating or breaking is noticed.


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Subject: RE: BS: electric cars, when....?
From: robomatic
Date: 15 Jun 19 - 08:33 PM

Mr. Red.
I'm just saying that torque reaction is a different phenomenon from gyroscopic forces and dealing with them.
For instance in a 4 wheel car, you can (and do) notice torque reaction when accelerating. But I doubt that anyone other than possibly a formula one racer, is going to notice gyroscopic forces because vehicle weight is far above spinning mass of the wheels and tires. On a motorcycle particularly a racing motorcycle, I expect there will be a noticeable gyroscopic effect. Torque reaction direction will depend on whether the drive is a shaft, such as BMW, Moto-Guzzi and some Hondas, and a chain drive like almost anything else.

I remember seeing a tractor trailer with a heavy load trying to get into motion after a light turned green. As the driver let out the clutch you could see the left front tire rise up by inches, then pound the pavement, up down up down as the drive shaft contributed great torque from the engie to the drive differential.


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Mudcat time: 15 June 11:34 PM EDT

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