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seek recording: Bert Lloyd & Peter Kennedy 1951

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Jehane 13 May 19 - 02:17 PM
GUEST,Correction ... 13 May 19 - 03:16 PM
GUEST 13 May 19 - 03:28 PM
Steve Gardham 13 May 19 - 03:32 PM
Ross Campbell 13 May 19 - 09:09 PM
Ross Campbell 13 May 19 - 09:32 PM
Ross Campbell 13 May 19 - 09:37 PM
Jim Carroll 14 May 19 - 03:19 AM
GUEST,SB 14 May 19 - 04:22 AM
Jehane 14 May 19 - 11:41 AM
Jim Carroll 14 May 19 - 12:20 PM
Jehane 14 May 19 - 12:31 PM
GUEST,SB 14 May 19 - 04:31 PM
GUEST,SB 14 May 19 - 04:32 PM
Steve Gardham 14 May 19 - 04:44 PM
Reinhard 14 May 19 - 05:18 PM
Steve Gardham 14 May 19 - 05:47 PM
Jehane 15 May 19 - 04:05 AM
Steve Gardham 15 May 19 - 04:52 PM
Steve Gardham 16 May 19 - 10:09 AM
Jehane 18 May 19 - 12:42 PM
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Subject: Bert Lloyd & Peter Kennedy 1951
From: Jehane
Date: 13 May 19 - 02:17 PM

I've been trying to track down a copy of this recording for sometime. I understand PK distributed copies via folktrax. The archive website starts from 1952, and doesn't include it!

http://www.peterkennedyarchive.org/

If anyone can help, please send me a PM. Thanks.

-----

1. Interview about his family and his singing by Alan Lomax - 4'04"
2. THE BRAMBLE BRIAR - 4'02"
3. BOLD SIR RYLAS or SIR LIONEL - 3'51"
4. THE CAPTAIN'S APPRENTICE - 2'15"
5. THE ROYAL DUKE OF GRANTHAM - 3'08"
6. THE SHOOTING OF HIS DEAR or POLLY VAUGHAN - 3'03"
7. LORD BATEMAN - 2'44"
8. THE BITTER WITHY or HOLY WELL - 2'11"
9. THE CARNAL AND THE CRANE or KING HEROD AND THE COCK - 1'18"
10. THE CHERRY TREE CAROL - 4'19"
11. CHRIST ME DID RANSOM - 1'22"
12. DOWN IN YON FOREST - 2'42"
13. THE GRAND CONVERSATION OF NAPOLEON - 2'29"
14. THE HOUSE CARPENTER - 4'28"
15. SCARBOROUGH FAIR or THE ELFIN KNIGHT - 2'17"
16. THE BANKS OF GREEN WILLOW or BONNY ANNIE - 2'42"
17. LORD THOMAS AND FAIR ELEANOR - 5'48"
18. THE FARMER'S CURST WIFE - 2'02
19. THE UNQUIET GRAVE - 2'19"
20. ROBIN HOOD AND THE TANNER - 3'32"
21. ROBIN HOOD AND THE BISHOP - 3'43"
22. GEORGE COLLINS - 4'22"
23. ROBIN HOOD AND THE PEDLAR - 4'58"

Recorded by Alan Lomax and Peter Kennedy, London April 1951.


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Subject: RE: seek recording: Bert Lloyd & Peter Kennedy 1951
From: GUEST,Correction ...
Date: 13 May 19 - 03:16 PM

"PK distributed copies via folktrax" - no - "PK SOLD copies via folktrax"


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Subject: RE: seek recording: Bert Lloyd & Peter Kennedy 1951
From: GUEST
Date: 13 May 19 - 03:28 PM

Try here:

http://folktrax-archive.org

http://folktrax-archive.org/menus/history_about.htm


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Subject: RE: seek recording: Bert Lloyd & Peter Kennedy 1951
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 13 May 19 - 03:32 PM

Are we to presume then this is Bert singing? I have a 78 of his somewhere. One wonders if he knew all of these songs in 1951 who was his audience? The folk revival hadn't started by then.


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Subject: RE: seek recording: Bert Lloyd & Peter Kennedy 1951
From: Ross Campbell
Date: 13 May 19 - 09:09 PM

Appears to be available here. I found the audio very faint, but clear.

http://research.culturalequity.org/rc-b2/get-audio-ix.do?ix=recording&id=10047&idType=sessionId&sortBy=abc

Ross


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Subject: RE: seek recording: Bert Lloyd & Peter Kennedy 1951
From: Ross Campbell
Date: 13 May 19 - 09:32 PM

The above is from the Association of Cultural Equity's digitised archive of the entire collection of Alan Lomax's tape recordings.
Introduction and search box here -

http://research.culturalequity.org/home-audio.jsp

Ross

PS Steve Gardham - Lloyd, McColl, Henderson and Lomax and others were working away for a good decade before the "folk revival" got kick-started.

http://www.goldilox.co.uk/engfolk/timeline.htm


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Subject: RE: seek recording: Bert Lloyd & Peter Kennedy 1951
From: Ross Campbell
Date: 13 May 19 - 09:37 PM

Coming up (flagged on another thread) -

Shirley Collins discusses Alan Lomax on BBC R4 "Great Lives"

https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m00057n4

Ross


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Subject: RE: seek recording: Bert Lloyd & Peter Kennedy 1951
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 May 19 - 03:19 AM

"Lloyd, McColl, Henderson and Lomax and others were working away for a good decade before the "folk revival" got kick-started."
That can't be said enough
I've been working my way though some of Bert's early Australian and and American albums - worth having for the notes alone
The Lomax recordings from Britain and Ireland on line are a revelation showing that we have only had access to the tip of the iceberg up to now

MacColl was first discovered singing his family-learned songs outside a cinema in 1934, before the Folk Revival was a twinkle in anybody's eye.

"The voice was a new one on the air, the voice of Ewan MacColl, but there was no mistaking the message of the tramping feet behind it.
Ewan MacColl was himself a victim of the Depression. The son of an unemployed Glasgow steelworker, who had moved to Salford in search of work during the twenties, he had suffered every privation and humiliation that poverty could contrive for him from the age often. His memories of his early years are still bitter—like his recollection of how to kill aimless time in a world where there was nothing else to do: “You go in the Public Library.
And the old men are there standing against the pipes to get warm all the newspaper parts are occupied, and you pick a book up. I can remember then that you got the smell of the unemployed, a kind of sour or bitter-sweet smell, mixed in with the smell of old books, dust, leather and the rest of it. So now if I pick up say a Dostoievsky immediately with the first page, there’s that smell of poverty in 1931.”
MacColl had been out busking for pennies by the Manchester t eatres and cinemas. The songs he sang were unusual, Scots songs, Gaelic songs he had learnt from his mother, border ballads and folk-songs. One night while queueing up for the three-and- sixpennies, Kenneth Adam had heard him singing outside the Manchester Paramount. He was suitably impressed. Not only did e give MacColl a handout; he also advised him to go and audition for Archie Harding at the BBC studios in Manchester’s Piccadilly. This MacColl duly did. May Day in England was being cast at the time, and though it had no part for a singer, it certainly had for a good, tough, angry Voice of the People. Ewan MacColl became the Voice, a role which he has continued to fill on stage an the air, and on a couple of hundred L.P. discs ever since."
Prospero and Ariel (pp 35-36), D. G. Bridson, Victor Gollantz (1971)

Bert's interest in folk songs originated when he worked as a sheepshearer
Ewan's songs came from his parents and some of the lodgers that lived with them in their Salford home - I spoke to Working-Class Historians, Ruth and Eddie Frow back in the sixties, both confirmed that "William (Ewan's father") was always singing queer songs nobody had ever heard"

It has become fashionable to cast doubt on the work of some of the great pioneers - that seems to be an ongoing habit among some (Child seems to be one of the latest victims)
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: seek recording: Bert Lloyd & Peter Kennedy 1951
From: GUEST,SB
Date: 14 May 19 - 04:22 AM

Cultural Equity have made a 'balls up' with their digitising. This is surprising bearing in mind the importance of their collection. The recording levels are so low - which they have been told about but done nothing to improve. Luckily their HTML / Javascript in ViewSource exposes the URLs to the MP3 files and its possible to download each file separately, then use such as Audacity to raise the audio levels.

This has now been done with the A.L.Loyd / Alan Lomax recordings on the CE page.

Download link:

https://we.tl/t-0kO5eAiQ5e

Meanwhile the page on the CE website does not include many of the looked for recordings from 1951. I wonder where the rest of them are?

====


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Subject: RE: seek recording: Bert Lloyd & Peter Kennedy 1951
From: Jehane
Date: 14 May 19 - 11:41 AM

It is possible that there is some overlap with the Lomax archive tracks. Lomax recorded Bert on 17th April 1951, and Kennedy 22nd April 1951.

I understand Kennedy recorded Bert again on 12th July 1951, these recordings for BBC Sound Archive.

Trees Grow High / Cruel Brothers (pt.1) [BBC Lib no. 16418, 1951]
Royal Duke of Grantham / Cruel Brothers (pt.2) [BBC Lib no. 16419, 1951]
Grand Conversation on Napoleon / Christ did Me Ransom / Captain's Apprentice [BBC Lib no. 16420, 1951]
Polly Vaughan / Lord Bateman [BBC Lib no. 16421, 1951]

I think the CE Polly Vaughan (Molly Bawn) T3359R01 is from July, but the rest from 17th April.


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Subject: RE: seek recording: Bert Lloyd & Peter Kennedy 1951
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 May 19 - 12:20 PM

Kennedy had a nasty habit of marketing other people's recordings
I ver much doubt if the National Library will ever bother to sort out which recordings were his and which were made by others
We once watched Seamus Ennis almost burst into flames when he was told that Kennedy was selling recordings he made of Ennis playing the fiddle
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: seek recording: Bert Lloyd & Peter Kennedy 1951
From: Jehane
Date: 14 May 19 - 12:31 PM

>> Kennedy had a nasty habit of marketing other people's recordings

This could also account for some. Many of the same songs are found on Riverside LP set -

https://mainlynorfolk.info/lloyd/records/popularballads.html#vol1

but the timings are different.

Hopefully, someone will come up with the recording, so it can all be sorted out!


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Subject: RE: seek recording: Bert Lloyd & Peter Kennedy 1951
From: GUEST,SB
Date: 14 May 19 - 04:31 PM

Re: "these recordings for BBC Sound Archive" - and likely will stay in the dusty arches for all time. At least Cultural Equity uploaded their recordings to their website.

Meanwhile the Beeb sits on their archives restricting all and sundry to have access. A few years' ago they did have a multi-million pound i.t. project to put all of their archives online, but the project was a complete failure. Meanwhile they are still wiping and junking programmes, especially regional folk progrmmes.


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Subject: RE: seek recording: Bert Lloyd & Peter Kennedy 1951
From: GUEST,SB
Date: 14 May 19 - 04:32 PM

"archives" not "arches"


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Subject: RE: seek recording: Bert Lloyd & Peter Kennedy 1951
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 14 May 19 - 04:44 PM

Several things still not clear here.
OP's 23 tracks. Are they of Bert singing?

Thanks, Ross, but I'm well aware of the contributions made by all 4 people mentioned prior to the onset of the revival which they all contributed enormously to. The question in Bert's case was why would he learn such songs and who would be his audience at the time? There was little interest in song at EFDSS at this time and there were no folk clubs. I must reread the Bert and Ewan biographies.

I'm pretty sure my Bert 78 is on HMV. Has anyone got a definitive listing of Bert's 78s?


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Subject: RE: seek recording: Bert Lloyd & Peter Kennedy 1951
From: Reinhard
Date: 14 May 19 - 05:18 PM

I know of three only, Steve:

A.L. Lloyd, The Shooting of His Dear / Lord Bateman, 78rpm, HMV B.10593, 1953

A.L. Lloyd, Down in Yon Forest / The Bitter Withy, 78rpm, HMV B.10594, 1953

A.L. Lloyd, Bold Jack Donahue / Banks of the Condamine, 78rpm, Topic TRC84, 1954


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Subject: RE: seek recording: Bert Lloyd & Peter Kennedy 1951
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 14 May 19 - 05:47 PM

It would be interesting to work out what Bert's sources for these ballads were. I might have a go at it. All of the 1953 tracks are in the Kennedy/Lomax recording.


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Subject: RE: seek recording: Bert Lloyd & Peter Kennedy 1951
From: Jehane
Date: 15 May 19 - 04:05 AM

The original list of 23 tracks is clearly ascribed by Kennedy to Bert. A number of these songs were definitely in his repertoire in 1951 - the Lomax archive and BBC recordings [and recorded later the 78rpm's].

Many of the others [e.g. Robin Hood ballads] appear on Riverside in the mid-1950's. They are listed above as recorded by Kennedy in 1951. As far as I am aware, this is the only reference to Bert having such a broad repertoire at this earlier date. I'm sceptical - are these unique performances of these songs, or has Kennedy misrepresented the later recordings?


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Subject: RE: seek recording: Bert Lloyd & Peter Kennedy 1951
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 15 May 19 - 04:52 PM

Thread drift so if this takes off I'll start another thread, but I'm interested in where the name 'Polly Vaughan' comes from.

All of the broadsides name her as Molly Bawn/Bann. The name Polly Vaughan was being used as early as 1907 possibly slightly earlier in the Gardiner Ms. What is curious is that the name 'Vaughan' does not occur in any of the actual songs in the Full English (English) manuscripts. (I didn't bother checking the American ones collected by Sharp as that was done later). Where a surname is given it is either 'One' or 'Bawn' (Whan in a later version) Where did Gardiner get the name 'Vaughan from? Was he thinking of Vaughan Williams? Bert presumably put his influential version together either from the ms or from some printed version that derives from the manuscript. Purslow in publishing his collated version in 'Marrow Bones' stuck with the Gardiner editorial title, but even his collated version with 'Polly' has no mention of a surname.


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Subject: RE: seek recording: Bert Lloyd & Peter Kennedy 1951
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 16 May 19 - 10:09 AM

Just for the record I've found my Bert 78 and it's the Shooting of His Dear/ Lord Randall one.


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Subject: RE: seek recording: Bert Lloyd & Peter Kennedy 1951
From: Jehane
Date: 18 May 19 - 12:42 PM

I understand CAMSCO Music had this on their catalogue after PK died.

http://folktrax-archive.org/menus/order.htm


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