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The fine line between MUSIC and NOISE!

Mr Red 20 Apr 19 - 05:59 AM
punkfolkrocker 19 Apr 19 - 07:22 AM
Mr Red 19 Apr 19 - 02:38 AM
Neil D 24 Mar 19 - 04:33 PM
GUEST,Some bloke 24 Mar 19 - 11:01 AM
Mr Red 24 Mar 19 - 09:42 AM
Mr Red 24 Mar 19 - 03:04 AM
Jeri 23 Mar 19 - 05:40 PM
Joe_F 23 Mar 19 - 04:45 PM
Dorothy Parshall 23 Mar 19 - 04:28 PM
Jack Campin 23 Mar 19 - 06:06 AM
GUEST,Phil d'Conch 22 Mar 19 - 02:24 PM
GUEST,Some bloke 22 Mar 19 - 01:41 PM
meself 22 Mar 19 - 11:55 AM
punkfolkrocker 22 Mar 19 - 11:45 AM
leeneia 22 Mar 19 - 11:25 AM
punkfolkrocker 22 Mar 19 - 08:01 AM
Jos 22 Mar 19 - 03:58 AM
Mr Red 22 Mar 19 - 03:31 AM
robomatic 21 Mar 19 - 09:45 PM
Richard Mellish 21 Mar 19 - 06:02 PM
Jos 21 Mar 19 - 04:56 PM
Pappy Fiddle 21 Mar 19 - 04:47 PM
punkfolkrocker 21 Mar 19 - 02:26 PM
GUEST,Phil d'Conch 21 Mar 19 - 02:18 PM
GUEST,Some bloke 20 Mar 19 - 02:49 PM
leeneia 20 Mar 19 - 11:42 AM
robomatic 20 Mar 19 - 11:16 AM
punkfolkrocker 20 Mar 19 - 09:36 AM
Howard Jones 20 Mar 19 - 09:26 AM
punkfolkrocker 20 Mar 19 - 09:06 AM
Mr Red 20 Mar 19 - 03:53 AM
meself 19 Mar 19 - 08:21 PM
GUEST,Some bloke 19 Mar 19 - 08:08 PM
Tattie Bogle 19 Mar 19 - 07:48 PM
punkfolkrocker 19 Mar 19 - 06:33 PM
GUEST,Phil d'Conch 19 Mar 19 - 05:42 PM
leeneia 19 Mar 19 - 02:17 PM
Stringsinger 19 Mar 19 - 12:20 PM
EBarnacle 19 Mar 19 - 10:21 AM
Acorn4 19 Mar 19 - 10:13 AM
clueless don 19 Mar 19 - 07:19 AM
Eric the Viking 19 Mar 19 - 06:48 AM
BobL 18 Mar 19 - 04:37 AM
Richard Mellish 18 Mar 19 - 04:32 AM
Mr Red 18 Mar 19 - 04:29 AM
leeneia 17 Mar 19 - 11:06 PM
GUEST,.gargoyle 17 Mar 19 - 06:00 PM
keberoxu 17 Mar 19 - 05:15 PM
Doug Chadwick 17 Mar 19 - 04:06 PM
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Subject: RE: The fine line between MUSIC and NOISE!
From: Mr Red
Date: 20 Apr 19 - 05:59 AM

Well! 130 dB is not a noise issue? And the OP asks about the fine line between Noise and Music. The ROH claimed some music has to be that loud!

It does still leave out the legal requirement visa vis audience. And if there wan't a nonsensical issue occupying politicians tiny little minds right now - maybe this would have triggered more debate.

FWIW there are those who do the statistics who are telling us that the incidents of hearing impairment are now more numerous, and the average age involved is coming down. One has to compare this with employers duty and compliance in modern times. And the increase in volume at music concerts, or on our streets.

Ever hear a car full of Yoof going past?


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Subject: RE: The fine line between MUSIC and NOISE!
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 19 Apr 19 - 07:22 AM

Mr Red - this seems more an employment rather than noise issue...

Bad bosses who don't care about worker's health and safety conditions...


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Subject: RE: The fine line between MUSIC and NOISE!
From: Mr Red
Date: 19 Apr 19 - 02:38 AM

UK legislation has been invoked and gone to appeal. Currently in the news.

A viola player lost hearing acuity because he was sited in front of the horn section at a rendition of Wagner's thunderous opera Die Walkure.
His case was brought because he was an employee of the Royal Opera House.
Curiously the ROH defence was that musicians must expect some hearing damage if you play in an orchestra. Tinnitus is not damage it is loss.

BBC article

some types of music absolutely must be played at max volume - caveat dico !

Anyone walk close to modern day buskers - or on the other side of the road?


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Subject: RE: The fine line between MUSIC and NOISE!
From: Neil D
Date: 24 Mar 19 - 04:33 PM

About ten years ago I saw Dylan in a mid-sized sports arena with poor acoustics. It was overly loud, but also the mix was bad. Johnny Sexton's guitar drowned out anything Dylan was doing. The only relief was the couple songs he did solo. Four months later I saw Leonard Cohen and the difference was like night and day. Firstly, the Cohen concert was in a grand old theatre in Cleveland's Playhouse Square, with excellent acoustics. (I can't really fault Dylan on the choice of venue because it was a hastily scheduled show to replaced a cancelled one.) Secondly, such great effort was taken to create the best possible sound mix at the Cohen show. At least 40 prime lower level seats were removed to block out space for the sound engineers and their equipment. Including the backing singers there were nine musicians on the stage and every note was pristine. Dylan's show sounded nothing like his records (tapes, CDs, etc), whereas Cohens's offerings were true. I have no intention of dissing Dylan or compare the two as to creativity. Both are in my top five all time, but the Cohen show was by far the most enjoyable I've heard and I've heard plenty over the last 50 years.

All that being said I still think some types of music absolutely must be played at max volume. I don't regret one second of the time spent in mosh pits, a few feet away from a speaker the size of a small house, at punk clubs during my misspent youth. Hearing loss be damned.


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Subject: RE: The fine line between MUSIC and NOISE!
From: GUEST,Some bloke
Date: 24 Mar 19 - 11:01 AM

Err. Yeah. Er... I think.

Although.....


Keep banging the rocks together.


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Subject: RE: The fine line between MUSIC and NOISE!
From: Mr Red
Date: 24 Mar 19 - 09:42 AM

rather than assuming Graham and I

Some Blokes don't read too well. And assume someone is assuming. The evidence is there to read. Assume makes an Ass of U & me........

It is far better to address the issue than reveal any chips on shoulders (Oh! too late). But the balance (pun intended) was about right, both shoulders.


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Subject: RE: The fine line between MUSIC and NOISE!
From: Mr Red
Date: 24 Mar 19 - 03:04 AM

A woman died a few years ago at an event in England when the pulsations in her chest set off cardiac arrhythmia

There was a case in Bromyard 30 yeas ago. Far from a ill-advised dancer, apparently he was watching, and when he got up to go during the dancing he collapsed. Mick Brooks comment was "he didn't look fit" and the knowledge was he had had a previous heart attack. But my impression was it was the music, the excitement and the adrenaline just watching, working on a weak heart.


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Subject: RE: The fine line between MUSIC and NOISE!
From: Jeri
Date: 23 Mar 19 - 05:40 PM

The waxy ones aren't designed to go IN your ears, but to cover the ear-hole like fingers do. I use them, but they don't stop as much noise as the squish in-ear ones. My ear canals are small, and bend in a way that makes it hard to get them in. I like the occasional loud music, but concerts such as Queen or Jason Isbell loud, not the Who loud. (And somehow, I've managed to not lose any hearing.)

Thing is (and I used to work in the hearing conservation program when I was in the Air Force), loud noise affects more than hearing. It can make people irritable, and cause fatigue.
What it comes down to is the volume, the length of time one is exposed, and whether it's a steady or intermittent loud sound.

For the record, Dorothy, the right frequency and volume of feedback can cause me to jam my fingers in my ears, and probably swear a little. (Which likely would be many people's reaction.)


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Subject: RE: The fine line between MUSIC and NOISE!
From: Joe_F
Date: 23 Mar 19 - 04:45 PM

Very roughly speaking, something dreadful happened to music when I was born (1937).


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Subject: RE: The fine line between MUSIC and NOISE!
From: Dorothy Parshall
Date: 23 Mar 19 - 04:28 PM

Jack Campin: Wow!

The worst that ever happened to me was when a too-loud-for-me Pan pipe hit a super high note and I experienced an excruciating pain, like a knife, in my brain. I staggered off the dance floor as far away as I could get, waited until I was functional enough to walk to my car, sat in my car until I felt functional enough to drive, went home to recover.

Different bodies react differently (too obvious?) but people do not respect the concept. Fail to recognize how their behaviour can affect others.

If my brain reacts differently than yours...?

By the way, I only used Jesse as an example of a fine musician who did not feel he had to play loud to be deemed wonderful. He was one of the quietest. Those who do not like quiet may have missed something special.

Some of you could say the same about those who do not like it loud? But that seems too be, in general, less a matter of preference than it is the way their specific body/brain reacts to sounds.

I would love to be able to enjoy some of those "too loud for me" musicians but the cost to my physical health is too great. Misphonia is interesting to me and ventricular fibrillation is just a mite scary.


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Subject: RE: The fine line between MUSIC and NOISE!
From: Jack Campin
Date: 23 Mar 19 - 06:06 AM

If you're really unlucky it's not just your hearing that goes. A woman died a few years ago at an event in England when the pulsations in her chest set off cardiac arrhythmia. This was before AEDs were widely available, but how many bouncers could diagnose ventricular fibrillation?


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Subject: RE: The fine line between MUSIC and NOISE!
From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch
Date: 22 Mar 19 - 02:24 PM

Health & Safety re: thread title.

As above, many consumers' personal tolerance levels are far below what the standards allow; others crank it to eleven and smile. Loud "unsafe" music is still music. There are no disqualifying upper or lower control "music" limits in the standards.

...or it's all noise. Take your pick.


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Subject: RE: The fine line between MUSIC and NOISE!
From: GUEST,Some bloke
Date: 22 Mar 19 - 01:41 PM

There's always some bloke...

Heh heh I see what you did there...

Now if such wit was applied to the Job in hand, rather than assuming Graham and I have different interpretations... (Which we don't.)


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Subject: RE: The fine line between MUSIC and NOISE!
From: meself
Date: 22 Mar 19 - 11:55 AM

Funny, I just heard a brief talk about misophonia on CBC the other day. A couple of the sounds leenia listed were given as examples of what were NOT misophonic - fingernails on a blackboard, squeaky brakes - because they are considered disturbing universally (there is some physics involved, which was kindly explained). It is when a person finds ordinary sounds such as the rustling of paper upsetting that you have a case of misophonia. As I understood it.


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Subject: RE: The fine line between MUSIC and NOISE!
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 22 Mar 19 - 11:45 AM

leeneia - the link I posted leads to a long article with bright colourful graphics...???

But now I look closer, there are options to freely choose whether to listen to streaming or download an mp3... or not...


"never listen to radio"..

well.. we are all at liberty to make wilfully perverse decisions to deprive ourselves of anything other folks keenly enjoy...


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Subject: RE: The fine line between MUSIC and NOISE!
From: leeneia
Date: 22 Mar 19 - 11:25 AM

Your link led to a National Public Radio page about choices for listeners. Since I never listen to radio, I withdrew.

However, you set me thinking about sounds people often hate.

fingernails on a blackboard
squeaky chalk
squeaky brakes
a crying newborn
saxophone

It's especially sad that the uncontrolled, choking crying of a newborn baby upsets people so. It has led to child abuse. We should all be taught about age ten that we all know it's upsetting, that the baby can't help it, that the baby won't choke to death, and basically to suck it up. It will pass.


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Subject: RE: The fine line between MUSIC and NOISE!
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 22 Mar 19 - 08:01 AM

Misophonia: When Life's Noises Drive You Mad

"Misophonia is characterized by intense emotion like rage or fear in response to highly specific sounds,
particularly ordinary sounds that other people make. The cause is unknown...

...Misophonia got its name just a few years ago,
and it is not officially listed as a diagnosis in any medical manuals.
Many doctors have never heard of it, and if patients do mention their symptoms,
they are sometimes dismissed or diagnosed with a mood disorder...

...Also, the people with misophonia appeared to have some unusual brain activity when the trigger sounds were played
"


Now folks, no abusing this knowledge and pretending to have this condition,
just to get musicians to turn down because you don't like their taste in music...


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Subject: RE: The fine line between MUSIC and NOISE!
From: Jos
Date: 22 Mar 19 - 03:58 AM

I listen to BBC Radio 4 a lot but I am getting really fed up with the sounds they use in the background - sometimes drumming or some kind of rhythmic sound, sometimes random snatches of music, but often just disjointed noises and semi-musical phrases, or just single notes shoved in here and there for no good reason.


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Subject: RE: The fine line between MUSIC and NOISE!
From: Mr Red
Date: 22 Mar 19 - 03:31 AM

Oh dear... Misinterpreting The Health and Safety at Work etc Act 1974. I wondered how long it would take.

There is always Some Bloke who knows better, thinking they spot Dunning-Kruger.

Oh the irony! They must be looking in a mirror.

FWIW information on legislation can be verified (in this parish if my memory serves**) by asking Graham Bradshaw. The man who does the sound at many large Folk Festivals. His business would be toast if he wasn't aware of the law, he is nothing if not superbly professional IME.

**too many references but he did post in this parish: stay within the limits set by Environmental Health for the site licence, so maybe it was on ECeilidh that he alerted us to "H&S at Work". Sound engineers and hearing loss? Of course Some Blokes don't read too well either.


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Subject: RE: The fine line between MUSIC and NOISE!
From: robomatic
Date: 21 Mar 19 - 09:45 PM

The last poster reminded me there is an AM radio show called INFOTRAC Typically it's an excuse to give on-air presence in lieu of advertising to some named party or product, but it tries to masquerade as factual information to the public. Trouble is while anybody is talking there is a soft bass playing in the background. I'm sure it's just mixed in but I find it annoyingly distracting.


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Subject: RE: The fine line between MUSIC and NOISE!
From: Richard Mellish
Date: 21 Mar 19 - 06:02 PM

Then there are videos (on Youtube or wherever) where someone is talking about an interesting subject but to the accompaniment of percussion. Some, including whoever edited the video, presumably consider it as music, though I fail to understand its purpose. To me it is definitely noise. Sometimes I endure it because the talk is really interesting. Sometimes I give up.


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Subject: RE: The fine line between MUSIC and NOISE!
From: Jos
Date: 21 Mar 19 - 04:56 PM

They wore cocktail dresses to a company meeting? How weird.


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Subject: RE: The fine line between MUSIC and NOISE!
From: Pappy Fiddle
Date: 21 Mar 19 - 04:47 PM

When I find memorable words, I save 'em. Here's a quote I think might be of help:

"We live in an age of music for people who don't like music. The record industry discovered some time ago that there aren't that many people who actually like music. For a lot of people, music's annoying, or at the very least they don't need it. They discovered if they could sell music to a lot of those people, they could sell a lot more records." < T Bone Burnett

I think loud music might be an art form like harmonious music, so more power to 'em, unless somebody wanted to build a big concert ampitheater on the next street over and start rockin' the foundations 4 nights a week; I'd fight it, because in the words of somebody calling themself Gran'pa Chet,

"Freedom of speech, like freedom to smoke, ends when it infringes upon others' freedoms of speech (or freedom to breathe, in the latter case). A roommate in Korea put it this way: "I have the freedom to swing my arms all around, unless they hit you in the nose."

I have a pair of ear protection muffs that drop the volume of a badly balanced table saw with old bearings chewing thru sawdust board, to a comfortable level. Someone could wear such to a concert and thus see if the musicians were any good. They are bright safefy orange. It would be like this time my company called an all-hands meeting to go over some stuff but they didn't have a conference room big enough so they rented a ballroom downtown but they forgot to specify it be heated. It was January and you could see your breath in that room, in spite of 2500 bodies assembled. As these turkeys droned on and on, I pitied all these women who thought it was going to be an occasion to impress folks and wore just cocktail dresses. I put my parka on and I was still cold. Finally I put the hood up, fur and all and sat there. They did not get the hint tho.


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Subject: RE: The fine line between MUSIC and NOISE!
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 21 Mar 19 - 02:26 PM

Bristol has lost how many music venues since increasing gentrification...???

Last I heard the wonderful and culturally important Thekla
was under threat from a new watefront build of luxury flats...???

Someone explain how rich folks can want to take over cuturally rich places,
that are so desirable because of diverse venues,
and then want to shut them down because of noise and riff raff loitering outside queuing to get in...!!!???


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Subject: RE: The fine line between MUSIC and NOISE!
From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch
Date: 21 Mar 19 - 02:18 PM

The title and the tone speak to me of nothing but personal taste. Jesse Winchester vs .... what? All other music?

In my experience it's the neighbors that complain first and most often. That's zoning law and varies by postal code.

Never ever, and I mean never, use Mudcat as a normative reference for anything to do with regulatory compliance.


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Subject: RE: The fine line between MUSIC and NOISE!
From: GUEST,Some bloke
Date: 20 Mar 19 - 02:49 PM

Oh dear... Misinterpreting The Health and Safety at Work etc Act 1974. I wondered how long it would take.

Most people at a concert are not working, those on stage hear monitors set to their needs.

Most venues have systems insisted on by the council to knock power off the stage if it gets too loud. You see, itís the responsibility of licensing authorities, not Health and Safety Executive to look out for the audience.

Iím a sound engineer and like most of us work to the guidelines, including pink noise set up of the venue, dB (a) monitoring at the desk (as I am normally at the back of the room near the bar. Bar staff are of HSE interest, usually nobody else. The artistes have their sound set to their needs.

A lot of what I do is folk. Itís nice to work with your heroes. I try to imagine (from my vantage point) how loud this here bloke and a guitar would be if I were ten feet away listening to him acoustically. Set as required. Bands that bring drums need to be loud enough so it isnít all drums etc etc. Rarely, Iím concerned things are loud enough that it detracts from the art.

But not with rock & electric blues. The volume is part of the act and punters know that. The sliding scale of exposure to time still isnít breached on my watch.....

Mrs Some Bloke thinks Bellowhead are noise but her bloody operas are art and vice versa.

As I said above, many on here are confusing the thread aim with spouting off your personal taste.


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Subject: RE: The fine line between MUSIC and NOISE!
From: leeneia
Date: 20 Mar 19 - 11:42 AM

The loudest concert I've ever been to was a Judy Collins. We had to leave, it was hurting me so bad. She lost a fan that night.

In the parking lot, it seemed like a Judy Collins the size of a skyscraper was looming over us.


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Subject: RE: The fine line between MUSIC and NOISE!
From: robomatic
Date: 20 Mar 19 - 11:16 AM

This part of my life I hang out in Starbucks. A Lot. I am sensitive to the music environment. Starbucks once had a thriving CD business going with artists they supported. They played these artists, or genre albums, in the store, and the CDs were visible and available at the counter. I learned about some good musicians this way. Now, Starbucks has some executive or group of executives and they select the day's music for all Starbucks everywhere. Through Spotify. And this executive or minion will select a music mix based on criteria that defy evaluation with a few exceptions such as when Tony Bennett turned 90 they played all Tony Bennett all day.
Right now they are playing some sort of alternative sh*t which is quite all right, really. But sometimes they will play some no-talents who think their autotuned voices are god's gift to all and I will sometimes take a refreshing walk around the building (in Alaska in wintertime) to avoid some of the yowling. Sometimes it's a bad mix of speaker acoustics and the drums.

By the way, I've been at venues with good singers and the speakers too damn loud. Tissue paper in the ears really doesn't help. If your ears are ringing they've been damaged. For me it was too much fun with cap pistols in me youth.


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Subject: RE: The fine line between MUSIC and NOISE!
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 20 Mar 19 - 09:36 AM

Howard - you can guess from my mudcat ID that my views are similar...

Once upon a time...
a venue in Scrumpyshire was the community hub of all our local youth music
until an elderly tory councillor bought up the long derelict and squatted terrace house next door...


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Subject: RE: The fine line between MUSIC and NOISE!
From: Howard Jones
Date: 20 Mar 19 - 09:26 AM

Sound limiters - the dreaded "clockwork orange". They are usually there because of complaints from neighbours rather than to protect the hearing of those inside the venue. They are a very crude method of controlling sound, and can be set at ridiculously low levels, sometimes less than the volume generated acoustically when they serve no actual purpose other than to disrupt the performance and risk damage to the band's equipment.

I have known them to be triggered by a different band in another room, and by the audience applauding. I probably shouldn't mention the time we ran a long power cable in to the stage from a socket in the kitchen, on a different circuit...

I'm not a fan over over-load music, and now have some hearing loss myself, but these things are just a damned nuisance.


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Subject: RE: The fine line between MUSIC and NOISE!
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 20 Mar 19 - 09:06 AM

errrmmm...

"A sound limiter is a device that monitors the volume of a band or DJ among other things.
The device is set to switch off the electricity supply to the stage or performance area
if a band exceeds a set decibel level for a continuous period of time,
usually measured in mere seconds and almost always under a minute.
"...


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Subject: RE: The fine line between MUSIC and NOISE!
From: Mr Red
Date: 20 Mar 19 - 03:53 AM

This thread is, as ever, degenerating into personal taste.

No, Health and Safety. It is a fact of law in the UK, all employees have to be offered and made to wear ear protection, if the ambient levels are deemed sufficiently high. And that includes volunteer stewards. But no provision in that law to enforce it for audience. Because they have a choice. Companies comply IME for fear of litigation.

But not so Folk Festivals (I don't go to other types).

FWIW there have been cases of concert musicians suing orchestras because of hearing loss. Trumpets are not only loud, but full of high frequency energy, and it is the shortest cilia that snap off first. Age and diseases like the common cold affect them too. Which is why teenagers can hear up to 20Khz and older people barely register those sort of frequencies.


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Subject: RE: The fine line between MUSIC and NOISE!
From: meself
Date: 19 Mar 19 - 08:21 PM

Look, we're a bunch of self-selected oddballs. We don't like what most of the rest of the world likes - that's why we're here. I don't like yelling over piped-in music in a pub; ordinary, normal people don't seem to mind it. So I don't set foot in a pub now unless I'm paid to; lots of people go in voluntarily. Go figure ....


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Subject: RE: The fine line between MUSIC and NOISE!
From: GUEST,Some bloke
Date: 19 Mar 19 - 08:08 PM

Mmmm...   Music so loud the theatre vibrated?

Thatíll be at Royal Albert Hall, listening to London Philharmonic performing Mussorgskyís Night on the Bare Mountain.

Or was it MotŲrhead at Sheffield City Hall?

Mind you, The Tannahill Weavers crank up everything else so the bagpipes are ďin the mixĒ which is ridiculously loud in a medium sized folk club.

Music as a word encompasses lots and lots. As a medium, it can be applied to many forms and some of them need high volume to complete the picture, some donít.

This thread is, as ever, degenerating into personal taste.

Although if Jim ever visits his own country again, I know what to do to keep him at arms length. My PA is normally working at 10% power but can deliver 3.2KW rms plus monitors all day if need be.


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Subject: RE: The fine line between MUSIC and NOISE!
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 19 Mar 19 - 07:48 PM

People above are talking about rock bands, but this "ramp up the sound" obsession is overflowing into folk events too, especially festivals, but sometimes even in folk clubs. I have hearing problems and wear hearing aids, without which I cannot reliably converse: but if I take them out in some of the concerts the music is still too loud! They can function as ear plugs if you leave them in but switch them off!


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Subject: RE: The fine line between MUSIC and NOISE!
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 19 Mar 19 - 06:33 PM

I was going to say bagpipes but got distracted by the wife coming home..

To that I'll add brass bands...


"It's something about the pure sine wave of electronic guitars that work against interesting dynamics and overtones found in unamplified instruments."

Can't say I recognise that.. unless you were talking about the maybe the 1930s...???

Modern electric guitars offer probably the most tonal variety, dynamics, and complexity of nearly all instruments
short of the sythesiser..

.. and when the technology of both are combined in one instrument in the hands of a brilliant musician...


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Subject: RE: The fine line between MUSIC and NOISE!
From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch
Date: 19 Mar 19 - 05:42 PM

Carnival, steel drums, (&bagpipes &banjos.) Bring on the noise.


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Subject: RE: The fine line between MUSIC and NOISE!
From: leeneia
Date: 19 Mar 19 - 02:17 PM

Hi, Mr. Red. It's nice to hear from somebody else who carries hearing protection at all times.

Loud ocncerts and airplanes have been mentioned. Another place where hearing protection is good is the subway.

Here's a good thing to know: if a person has different hearing in one ear than the other, then a sudden loud noise is not merely painful, it's also frightening.


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Subject: RE: The fine line between MUSIC and NOISE!
From: Stringsinger
Date: 19 Mar 19 - 12:20 PM

It's possible that with loud electronic sounds, a young audience can feel the vibrations of the music which are stimulating physically especially for dancing. This seems to be one of the appeals of rock. Playing at high levels does make the music sound different but often it masks the inability to play well.

Many rock artists and producers lost their hearing by cranking it up in the recording studio where mid range becomes weaker when the ears are fatigued. The large venues
that rock musicians are forced to play requires loud volume to cover the room especially if the sound engineering is not as good as it should be. Many venues have bad acoustics which are compensated for by excessive decibels.

There is a penchant for producing sounds that are interpreted as being exciting
because they are loud. With live symphony orchestras, this might be the case during passages of Berlioz or Beethoven but then there is the contrast in amplitude relieving the loud parts with varying dynamics. With rock, there is no relief.

It's a cultural problem. Flash and pyrotechnics at loud volumes are a way of
alleviating the boredom that many people have in their lives, slaving at meaningless work and alcohol plays a role here too. Clubs often have musicians that attempt to cut through the alcoholic and tobacco haze by banging it home. Loud music is also a
way of releasing anger very much in the way many react to sporting events.

Folkies are generally used to a different way of listening to music appreciating the subtleties of dynamic range created with natural acoustics. At this point in my life
I really prefer to go to house concerts to hear musicians in a more intimate setting.
I guess I'm an old fogey folkie. But it is thrilling to hear a world class symphony orchestra or when they were once available a live jazz or dance band like Basie or Duke
and the unamplified sounds of great be-bop players or New Orleans bands.

It's something about the pure sine wave of electronic guitars that work against interesting dynamics and overtones found in unamplified instruments.

Also, music education is one of the casualties of the general dumbing down of America.
Teachers are underpaid and often unappreciated and we can't expect that many will emerge from an impoverished educational system with sensitivity to the arts.


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Subject: RE: The fine line between MUSIC and NOISE!
From: EBarnacle
Date: 19 Mar 19 - 10:21 AM

A few years ago I had a booth in a "Green Living" tent about 100' from the dance stage. The sound level was so loud in the Green Living tent was painful. when I complained to the festival manager his response was "The people like it that loud."
I am significantly deaf and if it hurt me at that distance, I can only imagine the damage the people up close were doing to themselves voluntarily.


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Subject: RE: The fine line between MUSIC and NOISE!
From: Acorn4
Date: 19 Mar 19 - 10:13 AM

This might explain why so many of the sound engineers you come across appear to be deaf?


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Subject: RE: The fine line between MUSIC and NOISE!
From: clueless don
Date: 19 Mar 19 - 07:19 AM

This brings back a memory.

Back in the 1970s, the Cornell Folk Song Club had a "folk festival" with a great number of well-known performers - Leo Kottke, David Bromberg, Steve Goodman, Fairport Convention, and several others. The Masters of Ceremony were John Roberts and Tony Barrand.

In the midst of all of this talent and outstanding music, most of the regulars just kept going around moaning "They were so LOUD! ... They were so LOUD!"

Don


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Subject: RE: The fine line between MUSIC and NOISE!
From: Eric the Viking
Date: 19 Mar 19 - 06:48 AM

I have heard plenty of acoustic players who could be described as "noise"! I hope nobody ever applies that to me.


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Subject: RE: The fine line between MUSIC and NOISE!
From: BobL
Date: 18 Mar 19 - 04:37 AM

I play in an acoustic heavy metal band.

On a good day, you can hear those church bells five miles away.


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Subject: RE: The fine line between MUSIC and NOISE!
From: Richard Mellish
Date: 18 Mar 19 - 04:32 AM

A few weeks ago I was staying in an inn. All was fine except on the Friday evening when there was a hell of a din. Some men (whom I hesitate to call musicians) were doing their stuff at one end of the bar. My room was on the next floor, above the other end of the bar. If the "music" had been something that I wanted to listen to, the sound level in my room would have been about right.

I was once told that the reason for loud music in pubs is to force patrons to shout at each other, making their throats sore so they buy more drinks. But that shouldn't apply to concerts.

Despite all the good things that electronics now allows us to enjoy, I sometimes wish that amplifiers had never been invented.


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Subject: RE: The fine line between MUSIC and NOISE!
From: Mr Red
Date: 18 Mar 19 - 04:29 AM

Mine are Etymotic Ear plugs, purported to preserve the high frequecies better than the soft yellow/pink barrels. Carry them at all times in case idiot fee the need to use speakerphone on the bus.

I found the bell-shaped ones worse that useless. For going to sleep at festivals I have 250** packets of yellow ones - they are secreted in knapsack, shoes box, caravan - you name it. Sometime necessary when overpaid fading pop stars turn up at Folk festivals in an effort to prop up their carreer.

FWIW We have evolved to treat loud noises as a danger signal, it invokes the adrenaline response, needed for fight or flight. In short, to some, moreso younger people, it is exciting. The aural equivalent of a roller coaster, and they don't loose money, do they?

** cheaper by the metric gross, and as an organiser an of ceilidh series I have plenty in case words are said, dancing needs adrenaline after all - the way we do it anyway.


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Subject: RE: The fine line between MUSIC and NOISE!
From: leeneia
Date: 17 Mar 19 - 11:06 PM

I like the soft, white waxy hearing protectors - Mack brand or generic equivalent. They conform to the shape of the ear. I have them with me at all times.

On long flights, I use the Mack hearing protectors, then listen to music with earphones, right through the hearing protectors. It must be high-pitched music - flute, dulcimer, soprano, not bassoons or bass viols.

Gargoyle, I believe that toilet paper accomplishes nothing.

Last night at the symphony the DH and I both had to cover our ears when the piccolo played.


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Subject: RE: The fine line between MUSIC and NOISE!
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 17 Mar 19 - 06:00 PM

I use soft "flesh-colored" ear plugs.

If, recently, caught "un-aware" toilet-tissue from any stall, must reduce potential damage.

Sincereley,
Gargoyle


I believe decibles arw now availble through the "transparancy"


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Subject: RE: The fine line between MUSIC and NOISE!
From: keberoxu
Date: 17 Mar 19 - 05:15 PM

When I last heard B. B. King, he was in a touring situation
and the final act of many in one night,
including Dr. John and Little Feat.
Now, Dr. John kept the volume respectable.
But Little Feat and B. B. King, for the full-ensemble songs,
had the volume through the roof.
King had a quiet set of songs in the middle,
when most of his big band would sit back,
and he played and sang with only a few other musicians;
later, the entire band was back and so was the high volume.

I remember hearing a member of the audience near me,
sneering during the soft intimate set:
"Where's the white sheet?!" and I do mean sneering, an ugly tone of voice.
I think they were alluding to a corpse in the morgue
with a white sheet draped over it.

"The Thrill is Gone" was reserved by B. B. King for the loud songs
with the full band
that were played after the soft group of songs.
It was played not only loud but fast, and hard driving.
And it was at that point that I saw someone walk out.
She was an African-American woman, proudly dressed for an evening out
in a striking white dress playing off of her rich brown skin.
And when King PLOWED DOWN into "The Thrill is Gone,"
this elegant woman sprang up from her seat
and MARCHED! down the aisle and out of the hall,
with her date, in a formal suit, racing to catch up with her.

As for me, the only way for me to sit through the loud stuff
was with fingers closing earholes; in fact,
I couldn't understand a syllable of the lyrics
except with my ears covered.


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Subject: RE: The fine line between MUSIC and NOISE!
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 17 Mar 19 - 04:06 PM

I don't like loud music either but, then again, my generation gap began to show along time ago.

DC


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