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BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?

Backwoodsman 07 Feb 19 - 10:22 AM
Dave the Gnome 07 Feb 19 - 10:13 AM
Stanron 07 Feb 19 - 10:01 AM
Dave the Gnome 07 Feb 19 - 09:50 AM
DMcG 07 Feb 19 - 09:50 AM
Stanron 07 Feb 19 - 09:34 AM
Jim Carroll 07 Feb 19 - 09:29 AM
McGrath of Harlow 07 Feb 19 - 09:14 AM
Iains 07 Feb 19 - 09:00 AM
Jim Carroll 07 Feb 19 - 08:26 AM
Jim Carroll 07 Feb 19 - 08:14 AM
Iains 07 Feb 19 - 08:02 AM
Dave the Gnome 07 Feb 19 - 07:59 AM
DMcG 07 Feb 19 - 07:47 AM
Stanron 07 Feb 19 - 07:37 AM
David Carter (UK) 07 Feb 19 - 07:31 AM
Dave the Gnome 07 Feb 19 - 05:59 AM
Iains 07 Feb 19 - 04:23 AM
Iains 07 Feb 19 - 04:16 AM
David Carter (UK) 07 Feb 19 - 03:53 AM
DMcG 07 Feb 19 - 01:34 AM
Stanron 06 Feb 19 - 06:16 PM
DMcG 06 Feb 19 - 05:42 PM
Steve Shaw 06 Feb 19 - 05:32 PM
Raggytash 06 Feb 19 - 05:15 PM
Stanron 06 Feb 19 - 05:01 PM
Senoufou 06 Feb 19 - 03:36 PM
Steve Shaw 06 Feb 19 - 09:59 AM
SPB-Cooperator 06 Feb 19 - 08:53 AM
Thompson 06 Feb 19 - 08:50 AM
DMcG 06 Feb 19 - 08:40 AM
Stanron 06 Feb 19 - 08:18 AM
DMcG 06 Feb 19 - 08:09 AM
Stanron 06 Feb 19 - 08:02 AM
DMcG 06 Feb 19 - 07:31 AM
Iains 06 Feb 19 - 07:23 AM
DMcG 06 Feb 19 - 07:17 AM
Iains 06 Feb 19 - 04:29 AM
Thompson 06 Feb 19 - 02:54 AM
Backwoodsman 06 Feb 19 - 02:52 AM
DMcG 06 Feb 19 - 01:55 AM
Steve Shaw 05 Feb 19 - 08:17 PM
DMcG 05 Feb 19 - 04:46 PM
Iains 05 Feb 19 - 04:37 PM
David Carter (UK) 05 Feb 19 - 04:13 PM
Iains 05 Feb 19 - 03:56 PM
Iains 05 Feb 19 - 03:33 PM
Raggytash 05 Feb 19 - 03:02 PM
DMcG 05 Feb 19 - 01:17 PM
Iains 05 Feb 19 - 10:39 AM
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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 07 Feb 19 - 10:22 AM

"Also just been reported that Boris Johnson was paid €1000 per minute for a 58 minute speech on Brexit he made to a business consortium
Nice to know somebody is cleaning up from this fiasco"


And this would be the self-same Boris Johnson who, the morning after the referendum, emerged from his front door looking like a rabbit caught in the headlights, with "Oh fuck, that wasn't supposed to happen!" written all over his ugly face, and who promptly shat his boxers and ran away when it was suggested that he should take charge of the BrexShit process?

He's a shameless POS.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Feb 19 - 10:13 AM

I find the term 'you people' weird.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Stanron
Date: 07 Feb 19 - 10:01 AM

You people are weird.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Feb 19 - 09:50 AM

The EU had many children sired by the UK. We should let the EU keep the house and pay maintenance to support the children...


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 07 Feb 19 - 09:50 AM

Now that is argument of someone who thinks we have the upper hand in the negotiations...


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Stanron
Date: 07 Feb 19 - 09:34 AM

Well if you are going to bring divorce into it, how about this? In most divorces a partner who has contributed to the marriage gets a proportion of the assets on leaving, not a bill. The UK has contributed more to the EU budget than it has received. We should be getting our share of the assets back as we leave. Not paying a bill.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Feb 19 - 09:29 AM

"obliviously shift"
Obviously shift - obviously
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 07 Feb 19 - 09:14 AM

There is nothing in any way undemocratic about providing people a chance to think again about an important decision. "Are you sure?" Is a perfectly reasonable question. It's even built into the legal system when it comes to divorce proceedings, withered there is always a "decree nisi" before any divorce takes effect.

In analogous circumstances referendums on the EU have been rerun after an initial "no" vote in three countries - Ireland, Denmark and Norway. In Ireland and Denmark the result of the second referendum was that people voted the other way - and in both countries there is now overwhelming support for EU membership. In Norway the second referendum confirmed the result of the first, and currently public opinion on membership is still split down the middle.

Does anyone claim that these countries are somehow less democratic than the UK?


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 07 Feb 19 - 09:00 AM

Wonderfully off topic as usual.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Feb 19 - 08:26 AM

Whoops
Europe doesn't have an "Empire" though I would guess it takes an ex-Imperial power to describe co-operation between States without having Britain at the helm as such

Also reported that Britain's economy on the point of stalling thanks to uncertainty about Brexit and has so far cost the country £64.5bn since the referendum.
Also just been reported that Boris Johnson was paid €1000 per minute for a 58 minute speech on Brexit he made to a business consortium
Nice to know somebody is cleaning up from this fiasco
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Feb 19 - 08:14 AM

" they gave the wrong answer in the first vote?"
No - Ireland doesn't hold referenda to get "the right answer" it does so as the feelings of the voters obliviously shift - that way we got same sex marriage, 20ist century rights to pregnancy termination rights and are set fair to gain divorce reforms in line with the rest of the world - none of which would have been obtained had the early decisions have remained carved in stone
Europe doesn't have an "


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 07 Feb 19 - 08:02 AM

I thought corbyn imposed a 3 line whip for article 50. They already support brexit, unless they have been lying to us.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Feb 19 - 07:59 AM

As Betty Boothroyd commented in her fine Brexit speech the other day

"If a democracy can't be allowed to change it's mind, it ceases to be a democracy"

Going on later to quote Harold Wilson

"Anyone who claimed that membership of the European community was a black and white issue was either a charlatan or a simpleton."

There appear to be a few of each on here...


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 07 Feb 19 - 07:47 AM

For people supposedly in favour of Brexit, the Brexiteers seem quite upset that Corbyn is listing ideas for discussion which would enable Labour to support it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Stanron
Date: 07 Feb 19 - 07:37 AM

Is this the same Jeremy Corbyn who preached against the 21st Century European Empire to an Ireland asked to vote again because they gave the wrong answer in the first vote? The leader of the party supporting a second vote for the UK because they gave the wrong answer to the first vote?

Principles and consistency or what?


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 07 Feb 19 - 07:31 AM

Corbyn seems to be the only one looking for middle ground though. I don't entirely agree with him, I think we should just stay in. But he is at least looking for a compromise.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Feb 19 - 05:59 AM

Today's light relief

Insults by EU unacceptable, say people who regularly compare it to Hitler

:D tG


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 07 Feb 19 - 04:23 AM

An interesting snippet:
"Accordingly, on the basis of the EU's own view of what is legally allowed under Article 50 and on the basis of which the negotiations proceeded, the backstop in its present form is illegal as a matter of EU law. The Attorney-General of the UK came to a similar conclusion in paragraph 17 of his advice to the government of 13 November 2018. It could also be argued that the backstop is inconsistent with the aim of the Treaty on the European Union to promote peace (expressed in its Article 3) since it is inconsistent with the institutional provisions of the Belfast/Good Friday Agreement and therefore undermines it.
EU law provides for a specific procedure for ensuring the legality of an envisaged international agreement before it is concluded. The procedure is set out in Article 218(11) TFEU and is regularly used."


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 07 Feb 19 - 04:16 AM

Corbyn is a grubby little opportunist. Now all can see him for what he is.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 07 Feb 19 - 03:53 AM

Well Stanron, you seem to regard Jeremy Corbyn as hard left, and he has written to May laying out the conditions for a deal that he would support. The choice seems to be between this and remain. May cannot get anything through the commons without opposition party support.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 07 Feb 19 - 01:34 AM

I think you are misunderstanding, Stanron. The point is the UK *does* want a deal as expressed by all the Malthouse compromise stuff. But the EU is under no obligation to accept it. Of the UK had not wanted deal it could have said so something like 18 months ago and just worked for that.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Stanron
Date: 06 Feb 19 - 06:16 PM

DMcG wrote: "No deal is better than a bad deal" works in both directions, you know.


Good. Let's go for no deal. The UK hard left have demonstrated their total lack of good humour.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 06 Feb 19 - 05:42 PM

It is only up to the EU to decide if the UK's proposals meet their objectives. There is no obligation on the EU to accept what it thinks is a bad deal. "No deal is better than a bad deal" works in both directions, you know.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Feb 19 - 05:32 PM

Couldn't agree more, Raggytash. We are in a terrible situation and levity concerning the crisis is not only unfunny but also totally misplaced.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 06 Feb 19 - 05:15 PM

Sorry Senoufou, not only is that childish, it's passing the buck to the EU for a situation that the UK has created.

The UK created this debacle it is up the UK to present a solution instead of blaming "Johnny Foreigner"

Having said that I'm not surprised that it was printed in the Mail.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Stanron
Date: 06 Feb 19 - 05:01 PM

Nice one Sen. I like it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Senoufou
Date: 06 Feb 19 - 03:36 PM

Here's a little song for you all (Daily Mail) to the tune of 'Daisy, Daisy':-

Brexit, Brexit, time to say toodle-oo.
We want exit, Brussels it's up to you
To end this unhappy marriage,
Although we keep Nigel Farage,
Just set us free
and you will see
We'll shake hands with a new EU!


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Feb 19 - 09:59 AM

Theresa May's red lines were drawn well after the push for brexit, during which push there patently wasn't a plan. In fact, she wasn't even in charge, and she wasn't even one of those pushing for brexit. You have it somewhat arse about face, Stanron.

And well said, Donald Tusk, by the way.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 06 Feb 19 - 08:53 AM

So now that Tusk acknowledges that the whole thing since calling the referendum has been in the name of internal political party division, when is he going to get his act together and make sure that the majority of the UK population who are caught in the crossfire are protected form all this. Whether or not he likes the fact, we are all members of an EU state and have the same rights as the rest of the EU.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Thompson
Date: 06 Feb 19 - 08:50 AM

Burke, by the way, was Irish - a Dubliner educated (in other words permanently resident during most of his childhood) in the Quaker school at Ballitore in Co Kildare; his study still exists there, unchanged and unknown to anyone except the two elderly bachelor brothers who own the house in front of the one where it's concealed.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 06 Feb 19 - 08:40 AM

Red lines saying you don't want are no sort of a plan, sorry.

Someone referred me to a nice cartoon a while back. I don't think it was on Mudcat, but apologies if it was. It concerned two MPs trying to order lunch in a restaurant. "Neither of us want the soup, I definitely don't want the salmon and he won't have the pate."


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Stanron
Date: 06 Feb 19 - 08:18 AM

The red lines indicate that there was a plan. In a negotiation plan details get altered as part of the two way process. If either side got all of their initial plan through without any change then there can not have been any negotiation.

Tusk is merely having an ill tempered whinge. Maybe he knows something is waiting in the wings.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 06 Feb 19 - 08:09 AM

Not so, Stanron. The red lines set out what you are not prepared to change in any final agreement, but not what the goal is.

A plan is how to achieve that unstated goal.

A plan should be there before you begin a negotiation, but it was not. That is why Tusk referred to a special place in hell for them.


There is no inconsistency.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Stanron
Date: 06 Feb 19 - 08:02 AM

A plan has to be there before negotiation. We are now at the end, or near the end, of two years of negotiation. The EU complains about Mrs May's red lines, yet now bandies accusations about no plans. At least one of these complaints must be unfounded.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 06 Feb 19 - 07:31 AM

I repeat: his comment is against those who pushed Brexit without a plan. Not those who pushed Brexit in itself.

Do you think it was a good idea to push without a plan? If you think a plan was important, outrage that somebody said so is a bit confected.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 06 Feb 19 - 07:23 AM

As Guido eloquently states:
This kind of arrogant derision from EU elites is exactly why we voted to leave in the first place…


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 06 Feb 19 - 07:17 AM

Those who backed Brexit with no plan deserve "special place in hell'


That doesn't sound as if May can expect much movement on Thursday to me once I anticipate it might be overlooked, it is the absence of a plan that merits the special place, not Brexit as such.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 06 Feb 19 - 04:29 AM

Both parties contained large numbers of members who voted in both votes against their better judgement. Before each of those votes in turn there was a groundswell in the country in favour of both so powerful that voting against would have been disastrous for the party. MPs voted in both ballots in their parties' interests and hundreds of MPs who knew that brexit was the worst idea in the world were too gutless in both to oppose what was a terrible notion

Let us reword this in simple terms that all can understand. Many MPs put political survival and self interest top of the list when it came to voting for article 50 and during electioneering for the recent election. TO merely say they were gutless seriously understates the severity of the problem.
Having secured their sinecures by lies and a distinct lack of integrity and honour, they now are hellbent on betraying the mandate instructed by the recent referendum. Both parties put out their stands on the basis of honouring the result. Their behaviour now shows their true colours. It is a sad sad day when the Beast of Bolsover is the only MP in the house to publicly display his consistency and integrity. Many Mps have shown themselvesto be grubby little people. This will not be forgotten.
There are many quotes concerning Burke but it is as well to remember real politik. After betraying his Bristol electorate his subsequent parliamentary career was to represent Malton, another pocket borough under the Marquess of Rockingham's patronage. His latter parliamentary catreer was never legitimised by a proper election.
As has been pointed out many times both parties vowed to honour the referendum result. To betray the outcome betrays democracy and takes us into uncharted waters. No amount of petty nitpicking by remainers can alter this. Politicians rule over us with our consent.

If that consent is withdrawn whither next?


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Thompson
Date: 06 Feb 19 - 02:54 AM

Britain’s latest horror in Ireland: they’re talking about burying their nuclear waste in Northern Ireland.

https://www.broadsheet.ie/2019/02/05/radioactive/

Surely Downings Street would be better?

Seriously, if they want to revive the IRA, what better plan?


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 06 Feb 19 - 02:52 AM

Absolutely correct Steve. For the feeble-minded amongst us who have the mistaken idea that MPs must do their constituents bidding (which would, of course, be impossible in most instances, because the MP has no way of knowing what his constituents' wishes on the vast majority of issues are) it's all explained in this piece


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 06 Feb 19 - 01:55 AM

You are right on what the relationship is, Steve, and that is very much Burke's stance. What I was trying to do was give a reason WHY that is the relationship.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Feb 19 - 08:17 PM

The transaction between an MP and his or her constituents is very simple. The MP is not obliged to cowtow to the wishes of the constituents. The constituents are not obliged to re-elect that MP. Every MP has thousands of constituents who would far rather have someone else "representing" them. And in no way can constituents regard their MP as their delegate. Naturally, it would be an outrage if an elected member serially disregarded their party's manifesto, but that's fine because the constituents have the remedy which won't be long in coming. Both major parties overwhelmingly voted for the referendum and for Article 50. Both parties contained large numbers of members who voted in both votes against their better judgement. Before each of those votes in turn there was a groundswell in the country in favour of both so powerful that voting against would have been disastrous for the party. MPs voted in both ballots in their parties' interests and hundreds of MPs who knew that brexit was the worst idea in the world were too gutless in both to oppose what was a terrible notion. As now, hundreds of MPs ignored the best interests of the country. That was a dereliction of duty and a kick in the bollocks for democracy. The undemocratic referendum campaign was the icing on the cake. In terms of knock-on effects, this is going to go down as one of the worst periods in history, and not just for this country.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 05 Feb 19 - 04:46 PM

At the very least, the MP is charged with looking after not only the interests of his or her constituents, but also those who are too young to vote and the interests of future generations to come. It is very common for the short term desires and the long term interests to differ. To that extent at least, the MP is duty bound to go against what some current voters might wish in the wider interests of the country.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 05 Feb 19 - 04:37 PM

"They are not betraying their electorate if they vote in accordance with the interests of their electorate."
As jefferson wrote:(roughly) These truths are self evident!

The link below elaborates a little.

https://www.conservativehome.com/thetorydiary/2019/02/principles-for-reselections-and-deselections.html


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 05 Feb 19 - 04:13 PM

They are not betraying their electorate if they vote in accordance with the interests of their electorate.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 05 Feb 19 - 03:56 PM

There is a certain inconsistency in the posting by remainiacs here.
On the one hand they argue an MP should vote (as instructed by the whips)as guided by his superior knowledge(Does anyone, other than a lefty, really believe such nonsense?) and on the other hand encourage them to lie through their teeth and deliberately deceive their electorate in order to be elected. They then try to explain away the deliberate lying by calling it real politik.

A reminder:MPs backed the government's European Union Bill, supported by the Labour leadership, by 498 votes to 114.
Shortly after there was an election with both main parties supporting brexit.
The subsequent beviour of remainiac MPs suggests they will lie cheat and steal from their grannies in order to be re elected, and see no harm in betraying their electorate in many constituencies.

The next election will be a grand settling of scores and probably remap British politics for a considerable period of time.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 05 Feb 19 - 03:33 PM

"that one man at least had dared to resist the desires of his constituents when his judgement assured him they where wrong"

and come election time his constituents ensured his ass was grass! and they mowed it most thoroughly.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 05 Feb 19 - 03:02 PM

You have to ask if some people read the quotes they are about to post.

"that one man at least had dared to resist the desires of his constituents when his judgement assured him they where wrong"

We could do with some more like him.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 05 Feb 19 - 01:17 PM

We still have our own "St Valentine's Day" to get through. It is incredibly hard to predict what will still be standing by the end of it. We may have whittled the options down to one. Or none. Or they could all still be around.

Or, perhaps, for some on each side -

He went like one that hath been stunned,
And is of sense forlorn:
A sadder and a wiser man,
He rose the morrow morn.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 05 Feb 19 - 10:39 AM

Edmund Burke, great statesman?

In May 1778, Burke supported a parliamentary motion revising restrictions on Irish trade. His constituents, citizens of the great trading city of Bristol, however urged Burke to oppose free trade with Ireland. Burke resisted their protestations and said: "If, from this conduct, I shall forfeit their suffrages at an ensuing election, it will stand on record an example to future representatives of the Commons of England, that one man at least had dared to resist the desires of his constituents when his judgment assured him they were wrong.
His electorate extracted their revenge 2 years later and he lost his seat.
It is noteworthy that he represented (corrupt)rotten boroughs for the rest of his Parliamentary career. Why was that I wonder?

A lesson some modern MPs would do well to heed!


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