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BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?

Nigel Parsons 12 Feb 19 - 08:47 AM
Jim Carroll 12 Feb 19 - 08:32 AM
Iains 12 Feb 19 - 08:11 AM
DMcG 12 Feb 19 - 08:10 AM
Backwoodsman 12 Feb 19 - 07:59 AM
Dave the Gnome 12 Feb 19 - 07:51 AM
Nigel Parsons 12 Feb 19 - 07:29 AM
Iains 12 Feb 19 - 05:42 AM
Jim Carroll 12 Feb 19 - 03:49 AM
Steve Shaw 11 Feb 19 - 07:46 PM
McGrath of Harlow 11 Feb 19 - 03:30 PM
Iains 11 Feb 19 - 02:33 PM
Steve Shaw 11 Feb 19 - 01:15 PM
Iains 11 Feb 19 - 12:35 PM
DMcG 11 Feb 19 - 12:11 PM
Backwoodsman 11 Feb 19 - 12:04 PM
Iains 11 Feb 19 - 06:44 AM
Iains 11 Feb 19 - 06:31 AM
Iains 11 Feb 19 - 06:28 AM
DMcG 11 Feb 19 - 06:26 AM
DMcG 11 Feb 19 - 04:58 AM
Iains 11 Feb 19 - 04:37 AM
Dave the Gnome 11 Feb 19 - 04:01 AM
Backwoodsman 11 Feb 19 - 03:43 AM
Jim Carroll 11 Feb 19 - 03:33 AM
DMcG 11 Feb 19 - 03:28 AM
DMcG 11 Feb 19 - 02:22 AM
Nigel Parsons 10 Feb 19 - 06:55 PM
Nigel Parsons 10 Feb 19 - 06:51 PM
Steve Shaw 10 Feb 19 - 06:48 PM
Nigel Parsons 10 Feb 19 - 06:42 PM
Dave the Gnome 10 Feb 19 - 06:01 PM
Dave the Gnome 10 Feb 19 - 05:58 PM
The Sandman 10 Feb 19 - 05:32 PM
Steve Shaw 10 Feb 19 - 04:46 PM
DMcG 10 Feb 19 - 04:07 PM
DMcG 10 Feb 19 - 04:06 PM
Steve Shaw 10 Feb 19 - 04:02 PM
Iains 10 Feb 19 - 03:38 PM
Raggytash 10 Feb 19 - 02:22 PM
Nigel Parsons 10 Feb 19 - 01:53 PM
DMcG 10 Feb 19 - 07:38 AM
Iains 10 Feb 19 - 06:27 AM
Steve Shaw 10 Feb 19 - 05:58 AM
Iains 10 Feb 19 - 05:44 AM
DMcG 10 Feb 19 - 04:49 AM
Dave the Gnome 10 Feb 19 - 04:40 AM
DMcG 10 Feb 19 - 04:23 AM
Steve Shaw 10 Feb 19 - 04:16 AM
Iains 10 Feb 19 - 04:07 AM
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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 12 Feb 19 - 08:47 AM

The recession of 2008/2009 is well documented as being the result of an unfettered financial market worldwide and not of the last Labour government. There was a lot not to like about Gordon Brown but you cannot lay a world crisis on his doorstep.

GDP is the accepted measure of economic growth. This administration have never achieved the high that Blair and Brown did in 2000 and with their efforts to trash the economy they never will. Try getting the facts for yourself, Nigel, instead of accepting the
spin of your Tory betters.

GDP figures from 2000 to 2017


Talking of 'spin'. This administration may not have reached the 'high' of 2000, but looking at your graph, neither did Labour. This idea of picking a single year to make the comparison with is misleading.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Feb 19 - 08:32 AM

"Growth worst since we had a Labour government".
Long since expecting a return response Nigel, but the statement is based on statistics not who was in charge and they are even carried by the Conservative Daily Express, Daily Mail and the Vonservative mouthpiece, The Daily Telegraph
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 12 Feb 19 - 08:11 AM

In 17 auctions, Mr Brown as Chancellor of the Exchequer sanctioned the sale of 395 tonnes of gold. Figures released by the Treasury show that the total proceeds from the sales was around $3.5billion. According to a Parliamentary answer, if the gold was sold last month, on December 15, it would have raised $10.5billifor you!on.Jan 7, 2009.

That's Labour for you!


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 12 Feb 19 - 08:10 AM

And, more importantly, a way of not talking about the impact of Brexit and the negotiations for it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 12 Feb 19 - 07:59 AM

Isn't the constant attempting to lay the blame the worldwide financial crisis - caused by the recklessness and mismanagement of, in the main, US financial institutions, mirrored here and elsewhere by others - at the door of the last Labour government a clear indication of the fundamental dishonesty of the Tory Party and its sycophants?


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 12 Feb 19 - 07:51 AM

The recession of 2008/2009 is well documented as being the result of an unfettered financial market worldwide and not of the last Labour government. There was a lot not to like about Gordon Brown but you cannot lay a world crisis on his doorstep.

GDP is the accepted measure of economic growth. This administration have never achieved the high that Blair and Brown did in 2000 and with their efforts to trash the economy they never will. Try getting the facts for yourself, Nigel, instead of accepting the spin of your Tory betters.

GDP figures from 2000 to 2017


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 12 Feb 19 - 07:29 AM

From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Feb 19 - 01:15 PM
Investment down, growth the worst for nine years


"Growth worst for 9 years". Isn't it strange that that period of 9 years (only) just covers the periods of the Conservative-led governments.
maybe the quote deliberately avoided saying "Growth worst since we had a Labour government".


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 12 Feb 19 - 05:42 AM

Lord Snooty:
He is the blue passport in human form, the red telephone box made flesh, the Royal Yacht Britannia in a pinstripe suit; a reminder of a world in which traditional Britons didn’t have to apologise for being who they were and bow before the gods of multiculturalism, feminism and health and safety.”
“He is more than just the leader of a faction or a cult. He is also the embodiment of the average Conservative Party member. A recent survey by Queen Mary University of London painted the fullest picture to date of Tory members. Some 44% are over 65 and 71% are men. They think austerity has been a good thing. They believe in traditional values and harsh prison sentences. They love Brexit—and not just any old Brexit, but the full-strength sort, leaving both the customs union and the single market."

A fine fellow of a man! Naturally superior to the scruffy git Corbyn.
The eloquent Rees Mogg has very clear consistent views concerning Brexit. Does Corbyn have a view of brexit that holds for more than the next soundbite? Such a disreputable wretch!


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Feb 19 - 03:49 AM

Remarkable programme on Irish television on Brexit last night which included powerful interviews with Alistair Campbell and the father of two of the Omagh bombing victims
The discussion centred around the possible effects Brexit would have on The Good Friday Agreement and a return to violence
It finished with statements from businessmen and farmers in the audience (from both sides of the border) outlining the effects this fiasco has had on their businesses and possible future effects
Campbell, who I have always detested, spoke magnificently and responded to every question clearly and honestly (not bad for a politician)
Perhaps they should have asked LORD SNOOTY instead - better for Britain's image !!!
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Feb 19 - 07:46 PM

And the money we're taking back control of is ebbing away fast. And the borders we're taking back control of mysteriously appear to be unable to stop people from moving out. And the laws we're taking back control of will soon all be the same laws we'll have to stick with anyway (it won't hurt because they're all good laws anyway, and in any case they form a tiny proportion of all the laws the country embraces). And we'll have to stick to any new EU laws regarding trade, only this time we'll have no say in them.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 11 Feb 19 - 03:30 PM

The thing that gets consistently ignored by those yammering on about how being in a customer union with the EU gets in the way of getting trade deals with other countries in farflung parts of the world is that, when it comes to getting favourable trade deals, the UK on its own is in a far weaker position that the EU. It just hasn't got the clout. Much of the time it will be about knuckling down and accepting what is offered, however bad.

This is referred to as "regaining sovereignty and independence."


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 11 Feb 19 - 02:33 PM

I'd prefer the bus. I do not trust fiat currency!


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Feb 19 - 01:15 PM

Investment down, growth the worst for nine years and even a Tory chancellor is blaming brexit uncertainty. And nothing happening. No trade deals and Liam Fox wobbling sweatily. Anyone for £350 million a week?


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 11 Feb 19 - 12:35 PM

Here is ine of Corbyn's speeches. I do like consistency off a politician!

https://talkradio.co.uk/news/exclusive-jeremy-corbyn-called-european-union-be-defeated-explosive-rally-speech-19021129836

What a valianr brexiteer! But he ducks and dives and bends and twists and the message varies north and south of the river!


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 11 Feb 19 - 12:11 PM

Before anyone says 'Facebook' as a means of dismissal, the speech is easy to find in Hansard.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 11 Feb 19 - 12:04 PM

At least one MP can see BrexShit for what it is, and isn't afraid to say so...

https://www.facebook.com/242623503265050/posts/308298963364170?sfns=mo


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 11 Feb 19 - 06:44 AM

From the font of truth and accurate reporting!


https://order-order.com/2019/02/11/uk-grows-1-3-2018/


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 11 Feb 19 - 06:31 AM

Hardly a recipe for growth!


https://www.theguardian.com/business/2018/dec/18/why-are-global-markets-falling-and-are-we-heading-for-recession


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 11 Feb 19 - 06:28 AM

Well in theory the 4th quarter GDP results are due today. Then we can see how far up the garden path Carney has taken us with his growth? estimates.
It is worth pointing out that Germany is expected to avoid an official recession by the skin of its teeth(results 14/02)
You need the big picture in order to draw meaningful conclusions,and in much of the world the favourite pencil out of the box is red.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 11 Feb 19 - 06:26 AM

UK economic growth slowest since 2012

We were asked earlier to wait for these figures before saying the growth was poor. We have done so.

"Ben Brettell, senior economist, at Hargreaves Lansdown said "There's little doubt Brexit uncertainty is responsible for the disappointing figures, though concerns over global trade will have also played a part."

Come now, you under-estimate the world class doubters you are delaying with. They are experts at doubting such things.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 11 Feb 19 - 04:58 AM


A rational person would thus take the pontifications of economists with a large pinch of salt.


True. But it would be irrational to then only eat salt...


Economists predictions are one factor among many to take into account. That the evidence says they are bad at predicting recessions does not means they should be disregarded in general. Babies and bathwater, as the saying has it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 11 Feb 19 - 04:37 AM

But they are 'experts', DMcG, and the Brain-of-Little-Britain-types who voted Leave are "Fed up of experts".

I find it useful to put such quotes in context. From the same Guardian article we have the gem:
Prakash Loungani at the IMF analysed the accuracy of economic forecasters and found something remarkable and worrying. “The record of failure to predict recessions is virtually unblemished,” he said.

His analysis revealed that economists had failed to predict 148 of the past 150 recessions.


A rational person would thus take the pontifications of economists with a large pinch of salt.
Forecasting is more an art than a science. Why else did all the referendum forecasts become so unglued?
Statistically to be fed up with, and ignore experts, keeps a person in closer touch with reality.
I wonder how true this would be for the religion of climate change?


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 Feb 19 - 04:01 AM

If tariffs drop the only people who will benefit will be the ones current!y making profits. The importer will benefjt, the wholesaler, the retailer but when we get down to the consumer you can get that the price will remain the same.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 11 Feb 19 - 03:43 AM

But they are 'experts', DMcG, and the Brain-of-Little-Britain-types who voted Leave are "Fed up of experts".


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Feb 19 - 03:33 AM

Corbyn has become a figure of hate and fear for the establishment
If he wasn't he'd be ignored - now he is being targetted by extremist foreign government who have attempted to infiltrate British politics in order to smear him and halt his growing influence - cant wait till Trump tries to build another wall to keep him out
He must be doing something right (or do I mean 'left'?)
   
Nigel
"I assume you have forgotten your intention to use peoples real names, obviously a temporary resolution."
Just as you have forgotten to respond to answers to your questions
You asked, I answered - the rest is silence......
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 11 Feb 19 - 03:28 AM

By "almost everyone else" I of course meant "almost every other economist." I am sure a lot of people who are not economists think it as well, but it was the former I meant.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 11 Feb 19 - 02:22 AM


As to the benefits of Brexit, I have posted comments about the advantages of buying foodstuffs without the tariffs imposed by the EU


I can't speak for anyone else, but I have not explored that here because it requires quite elaborate and disputed economics. The ERG's favourite economist, Professor Minton, advocates getting rid of tariffs entirely, and is quite content that theis would lead to the demise of UK farming etc. Which, since it limits our options, is actually quite bad in terms of sovereignty as we would be limited to picking between whatever deals others would be prepared to offer. Almost everyone else thinks letting our local farming collapse is a really bad idea. Some people argue that lowering tariffs leaves more money in people's pockets, which is a good thing. But if they can only spend it on foreign goods that is a net flow of resources out of the country, which is not a good thing at all.

I may be the only person in world who thinks this, but it seems credible to me that if we want to reduce climate change we need to encourage people to buy locally and that tariffs on imports will eventually be one of the tools we use to help manage this.

So: I regard reduction of tariffs not as a 'good' but as 'uncertain benefit'.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 10 Feb 19 - 06:55 PM

Nope. The problem is all yours. Nighty night, Nigletpicker.

Good night.
I assume you have forgotten your intention to use peoples real names, obviously a temporary resolution.

If the best you can do is use insulting names, and avoid discussing the matter in hand, clearly you have learnt from your pupils, rather than the other way around.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 10 Feb 19 - 06:51 PM

From: Raggytash - PM
Date: 10 Feb 19 - 02:22 PM
Nitpicking once again Nigel.
Do you have anything positive to tell us about Brexit.
I know I have asked this question on many many occasions, I have yet to receive a direct answer.


Requiring accuracy in the intentions of posters is not 'nitpicking', but if that is the best you can do to answer criticism of previous comments I will accept that you cannot add to the discussion.

As to the benefits of Brexit, I have posted comments about the advantages of buying foodstuffs without the tariffs imposed by the EU (to protect their own providers) but you have obviously either not read those comments, or chosen to ignore them.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Feb 19 - 06:48 PM

Nope. The problem is all yours. Nighty night, Nigletpicker.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 10 Feb 19 - 06:42 PM

To be clear, Nigel, that's what I meant. "The brexiteers might demand it, DMcG, but they are decidedly in a minority in Parliament, and we're told that almost no-one wants no-deal. The proposal will more likely be overturned on account of the fear of MPs in leave constituencies..." etc.

Just for you, I suppose I could have said "...almost no-one in Parliament..." Silly me for thinking I'd provided enough context for that already.


Yes, but if your comments were allowed to ride we would be accepting that "almost no-one wants no-deal". If you wish to clarify the comment, then do so.
I may be alone in expecting people to be clear in their meanings.
If, as an ex-teacher, you are unable to accurately formulate your comments, that is your problem, not mine.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Feb 19 - 06:01 PM

Oh, and into the valley of death ride the...


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Feb 19 - 05:58 PM

I think the Tories are frightened of him

Why 15-page Jeremy Corbyn 'hatchet job' shows Tories are taking him seriously

He must be doing something right.

But if course all of this is just to take the heat of the complete cock up they have made over brexit.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: The Sandman
Date: 10 Feb 19 - 05:32 PM

I THINK CORBYN WOULD BE A GOOD PRIME MINISTER


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Feb 19 - 04:46 PM

Cheers, DMcG. As we used to say oop north, you'll never see what I'll buy you!


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 10 Feb 19 - 04:07 PM

cross-posted there, Steve.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 10 Feb 19 - 04:06 PM


The brexiteers might demand it, DMcG, but they are decidedly in a minority in Parliament, and we're told that almost no-one wants no-deal.


For the record, as that sentence was explicitly directed to me, it is worth noting I read it in the sense I believe it was intended - that the 'almost no-one' related to the people in Parliament already referenced in the sentence. That the content of the universal can be interpreted in different ways is beside the point, common to almost every sentence in English using universals and, yes, nit-picking.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Feb 19 - 04:02 PM

To be clear, Nigel, that's what I meant. "The brexiteers might demand it, DMcG, but they are decidedly in a minority in Parliament, and we're told that almost no-one wants no-deal. The proposal will more likely be overturned on account of the fear of MPs in leave constituencies..." etc.

Just for you, I suppose I could have said "...almost no-one in Parliament..." Silly me for thinking I'd provided enough context for that already.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 10 Feb 19 - 03:38 PM

I do like the way remainiacs like to ignore an adherence to facts by dismissing it as nitpicking. This same wilful disregard for reality is of course the reason Labour, when in power, always makes such a shambles of the economy. However we are quite safe. Under the realm of Corbyn labour can only wilt.No one, but no one, would trust him as PM.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 10 Feb 19 - 02:22 PM

Nitpicking once again Nigel.

Do you have anything positive to tell us about Brexit.

I know I have asked this question on many many occasions, I have yet to receive a direct answer.

I would have hoped that after over two and a half years you may have been able to come up with some things to make me think that Brexit may have some beneficial outcomes for the UK.

Sadly I'm still awaiting such .............

Over to you.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 10 Feb 19 - 01:53 PM

Steve: "We're told that almost no-one wants no-deal"

That's the problem. Some people just believe what they are told.
When Cameron suggested a referendum I'm sure he was told Remain would win it. People on this site seemed to think it was a forgone conclusion. The reality was something different.

If you were to say that "very few MPs want no-deal" then you may well be correct. But the majority of MPs (apparently) favoured Remain anyway, so that would not stretch credibility.
What the people of the country want in the current situation has yet to be tested, but the latest referendum is still the 2016 one, and a majority (of those who voted) voted to leave the EU.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 10 Feb 19 - 07:38 AM

The simplest way to keep it off the referendum is to recognise that Parliament has already voted a week or two against a no deal. But I share your cynicism, Steve: it could be voted against as you suggest because of that fear, or amended to add a no deal because of that selfsame fear. Or call it self interest if you prefer.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 10 Feb 19 - 06:27 AM

It is the will of the people elects them. They either pay attention, or find alternative employment.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Feb 19 - 05:58 AM

The brexiteers might demand it, DMcG, but they are decidedly in a minority in Parliament, and we're told that almost no-one wants no-deal. The proposal will more likely be overturned on account of the fear of MPs in leave constituencies facing a backlash in the next election for failing to cowtow to "the will of the people." Pardon me for being cynical.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 10 Feb 19 - 05:44 AM

Best kept off this thread, though.
Yes indeed,otherwise the educational failings of remainiacs might rise to the fore!


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 10 Feb 19 - 04:49 AM

What has happened to our education system? :-(

Now that is a topic and a half! Best kept off this thread, though.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Feb 19 - 04:40 AM

As a recent survey showed that many people thought that no deal meant remain, having both no deal and remain as a choice would just confuse them.

What has happened to our education system? :-(


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 10 Feb 19 - 04:23 AM

It is an interesting idea. I doubt, though, that a referendum without a 'no-deal' option would be approved by Parliament. The Brexiteers would demand it, and few politicians will be prepared to sign up for something the Mail & co will present as 'defying the will of the people', however dubious such an assertion might be.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Feb 19 - 04:16 AM

Interesting new idea afoot according to the Guardian website. Parliament could be asked to accept May's deal on condition that there would then be a referendum with a simple choice, May's deal or remain. I can see that gaining ground. Not keen meself. I don't like referendums and I think I that May's deal is a terrible idea. The temptation could be that it's likely to be the only way to break the deadlock, and there would be no objection from the EU.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 10 Feb 19 - 04:07 AM

St Jeremy of the allotment is having his wings singed in the press today.Even the Guardian/Observer has this to say:
Corbyn’s leadership is under withering fire. He is attacked, again, for a perceived failure to effectively combat antisemitism within the party, in the case of Wavertree MP Luciana Berger. His support for Venezuela’s discredited socialist experiment has drawn more fire. He faces threats from a number of MPs to quit the party altogether. And on Brexit, to date, he has been, at best, ambivalent about following stated conference policy and, at worst, duplicitous.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6686593/Jeremy-Corbyns-40-years-plots-lies-intimidation-chaos.html
Jeremy Corbyn's 40 years of plots, lies, intimidation and chaos: Chilling biography tells how Labour leader followed Lenin and Trotsky's bloody footprint - seize power, purge moderates, crush dissent and leave the dirty work to others

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2019/02/09/no-wonder-feminists-have-had-enough-jeremy-corbyn-fellow-brocialists/

Seems a concerted effort to highlight the chappie's failings. It rather destroys the credibility of the doyen? of the left. Perhaps the movers and shakers are fed up with his endless posturing, especially with a potential split in the offing. I wonder if those responsible have been learning from the Democrats mistakes? Their engineered takedown is turning into a fiasco.
Interesting times!.


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Mudcat time: 6 December 5:58 AM EST

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