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BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?

Backwoodsman 21 Oct 19 - 08:11 AM
DMcG 21 Oct 19 - 08:03 AM
Iains 21 Oct 19 - 06:01 AM
Steve Shaw 21 Oct 19 - 05:10 AM
peteaberdeen 21 Oct 19 - 04:23 AM
DMcG 21 Oct 19 - 04:23 AM
Dave the Gnome 21 Oct 19 - 04:12 AM
Iains 21 Oct 19 - 03:59 AM
Jim Carroll 21 Oct 19 - 03:55 AM
DMcG 21 Oct 19 - 03:21 AM
Iains 20 Oct 19 - 02:04 PM
Raggytash 20 Oct 19 - 12:29 PM
Steve Shaw 20 Oct 19 - 09:40 AM
Backwoodsman 20 Oct 19 - 07:36 AM
Iains 20 Oct 19 - 06:43 AM
Steve Shaw 20 Oct 19 - 06:14 AM
Iains 20 Oct 19 - 04:08 AM
DMcG 20 Oct 19 - 03:23 AM
DMcG 20 Oct 19 - 03:22 AM
Steve Shaw 19 Oct 19 - 06:45 PM
Iains 19 Oct 19 - 04:10 PM
Steve Shaw 19 Oct 19 - 03:46 PM
Steve Shaw 19 Oct 19 - 03:31 PM
robomatic 19 Oct 19 - 02:39 PM
Iains 19 Oct 19 - 12:21 PM
DMcG 19 Oct 19 - 11:35 AM
Raggytash 19 Oct 19 - 10:14 AM
DMcG 19 Oct 19 - 03:33 AM
Steve Shaw 18 Oct 19 - 01:04 PM
Iains 18 Oct 19 - 11:06 AM
Steve Shaw 18 Oct 19 - 09:35 AM
DMcG 18 Oct 19 - 08:30 AM
DMcG 18 Oct 19 - 06:46 AM
Iains 18 Oct 19 - 06:33 AM
Iains 18 Oct 19 - 06:23 AM
Steve Shaw 18 Oct 19 - 06:20 AM
Steve Shaw 18 Oct 19 - 05:27 AM
Steve Shaw 17 Oct 19 - 07:43 PM
Steve Shaw 17 Oct 19 - 07:23 PM
Steve Shaw 17 Oct 19 - 06:14 PM
Steve Shaw 17 Oct 19 - 03:32 PM
Steve Shaw 17 Oct 19 - 03:25 PM
robomatic 17 Oct 19 - 02:35 PM
Steve Shaw 17 Oct 19 - 02:15 PM
WalkaboutsVerse 17 Oct 19 - 02:08 PM
DMcG 17 Oct 19 - 02:07 PM
weerover 17 Oct 19 - 01:58 PM
DMcG 17 Oct 19 - 09:02 AM
Iains 17 Oct 19 - 08:46 AM
Iains 17 Oct 19 - 08:07 AM
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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 21 Oct 19 - 08:11 AM

Criticising Brexit to become a ‘Hate Crime’... after the movement gains religious status. ;-)

Well, let’s face it, it bears as much relationship to reality as any other religion.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 21 Oct 19 - 08:03 AM

From a Guardian live news feed:

Scottish judges to continue case into legality of Johnson's letters to Brussels

Guardian Scotland editor Severin Carrellis in court in Edinburgh where Lord Carloway has rejected a call by the UK government to halt proceedings because the prime minister has met his legal requirements under the Benn Act.

The judge said he would continue with the case until it was clear that Downing Street has complied with the act in full – ie. to seek and, if offered, accept a Brexit extension from the EU. A date for the next hearing is yet to be fixed.

======
As I anticipated in earlier posts, the Government lawyers claimed that sending the letter discharged all its legal obligations under the Act. It is clear the court does not agree.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 21 Oct 19 - 06:01 AM

even though all the indications are that they are now a minority and they have never had the decency, courage and sense of democracy to ask the poeople whether that still beelieve this suicidal nonsense
I don't believe it

My number(17,400,000 to leave was bigger than your number(16,100,000) to remain. That means I am in the majority, you are in the minority.Democracy is to honour the will of the majority. Do you have a problem understanding big numbers? or do you simply like to post arrant nonsense?

An unusual article in the guardian today. It actually makes a kind of sense. "Of the six Labour MPs who rebelled and voted with the government on Saturday, only one, Caroline Flint, is standing again in the next general election. But in her constituency of Don Valley, which she has represented for 22 years, that decision seems unlikely to be a costly one.Explaining her decision, Flint revealed a stark statistic: in the mining villages in this part of South Yorkshire, she wrote in the Sunday Times, 80% of voters backed leave in 2016 (over the whole constituency the figure was 68%). Parliament has not been listening to these people, she wrote: “The voices in our mining villages remain unheard, despite their support for Labour over many decades.”

None of your totally discredited Burke being a berk garbage in this neck of the woods.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/oct/20/she-has-listened-to-us-constituents-back-labour-rebel-caroline-flint


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Oct 19 - 05:10 AM

Excellent comment on the Guardian website under today's live blog:

It seems pretty clear that this withdrawal agreement is flawed to its very foundations. Dangerously imbalanced and unsustainable, splitting the UK into fragments that add up to the *opposite* of the ideal compromise, without any crumbs of comfort for anyone. Northern Ireland given economic favours it doesn’t want. Scotland denied those same economic favours it *does* want. The sensible half of England and Wales shafted from every angle, and the insensible half given poverty and weakness dressed up in the same warmed over empty promises they so eagerly believed three years ago.

If this was an agreement intended for the long term it would almost certainly lead to the eventual collapse of the United Kingdom, but of course it’s not a long term agreement. It comes with a sell by date that falls long before - *years* before - a trade agreement could conceivably be reached, with the default and most likely outcome being no deal. In voting for the agreement MPs only give up the safeguards they have today to stop no deal. They put the right to trigger it in the hands of a man who can’t even be trusted with his own name, and has proved time and again that he can’t be trusted with power.

This week many MPs will be tempted to vote for Johnson’s deal because the nation is exhausted and frustrated, eager to ‘get Brexit done’ provided the many millions who feel otherwise are carefully ignored...

...MPs, be bold, and remember that we sent you there not to bow to the confected rage of the right wing press, nor the threats of the leadership and the bullying whips, nor even to be delegates for our own opinions and anger. You were sent to that place to *represent our interests* to the best of your abilities, to use your judgement and conscience to make the lives and futures of the people you serve better. The impact of your decisions this week will be felt for decades. Only you can decide whether to hurt or help us, and deep down you all know that Brexit can only cause harm. Please, do the right thing.


My sentiments precisely.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: peteaberdeen
Date: 21 Oct 19 - 04:23 AM

i.m not really too concerned at a national level about a few million frail mail and telegraph-reading pensioners getting their warped and manipulated brexit mania thwarted in the name of 'looking at the detail'. they may get a bit outraged until the next royal baby or cake baking outrage on tv. the even further right group of potentially violent headbangers could remain angry in small parts of the country and they are -as ever- a threat to law and order. a worry where i live. however, at a national level they have no real significance (unless you count throwing plastic chairs around in european mainland squares) tommy robinson got less than 3,000 votes when he stood for election in the north west euro elections. i don't feel they should be taken into consideration - we can't have democracy by threat


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 21 Oct 19 - 04:23 AM

It is worse than that, DtG. I was speaking to a guy in the pub last night who asked how the voted went and was horrified when I told him that and that the letters had been sent. He said that "they can't do that" (not defining who 'they' are) and that as a life long Labour voter he could not object to any of the things in the Queens Speech "so would not vote Tory but would vote Boris"


So: we have a chap with an interest in Brexit but not enough to find out the result in some 28 hours. Who is seemingly unaware that Johnson's track record in keeping his promises is not exactly great. Who is presumably aware that the things in the Queen's Speech are again not things the Tories have a good track record on.

And to finish off seems to think he votes for a PM but not a party.

Do I have a lot of confidence in the outcome of a confirmatory referendum? Not really.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 Oct 19 - 04:12 AM

What is really odd about this whole debacle is how people are supporting the narcissistic serial liar we now have for a PM. The man has a blatant disregard for parliamentary procedure, the law and democracy, yet he is portrayed as championing all of these. It just goes to show that you can fool some of the people all of the time. Let us just hope that he now has enough rope to hang himself.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 21 Oct 19 - 03:59 AM

Bercow is a loose cannon abusing his position to thwart the will of the government and the democratic majority.
It is clearly no longer even a pretense of insisting on the right terms for brexit, but simply an all out attempt to frustrate and cancel it.

It has become a battle between the people and a rebellious parliament and no specious arguments advanced here can alter that fact.
17.4 million people voted to leave in June 2016. Our patience is evaporating.
There is no possible argument that can be advanced to legitimize the power grab by rebellious MPs. They betray their electorate and democracy.
They are so uncertain of their standing they cannot even tolerate the thought of an election.
Remainiacs are happy to destroy democracy in order to get their way.
Yet when the inevitable blowback inevitably occurs they will be the first to bleat "not fair"
We have already had a taster with the opinionated ecoloons bringing parts of London to a standstill. The laddie on the tube roof got short shift off commuters. He should be charged with endangering the public by ignoring the HSE working at heights directive.(No method statement, no fall arrest harness or means of attachment, no safety barriers,etc etc)
Be very careful what you wish for. If 17.4 million get riled up enough to insist their vote is respected, there will be consequences.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Oct 19 - 03:55 AM

Are the Brexit Kamikazists still claiming the "majority" even though all the indications are that they are now a minority and they have never had the decency, courage and sense of democracy to ask the poeople whether that still beelieve this suicidal nonsense
I don't believe it
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 21 Oct 19 - 03:21 AM

We will hear today whether Bercow will allow a debate to proceed, though most predictions are that he will not.

The 'master strategist' (cough!) Cummings, just like all the rest of us, will have been aware that putting essentially the same motion back to Parliament is against the rules. So when Johnson pulled the vote at the weekend they would both have been aware that there was a very real chance it could not be brought back.

So any anger if Bercow does prohibit the motion will either be confected - it was part of their plan - or demonstrate what we all suspect that there is no plan at all. A goal, yes. A strategy - blame everyone else for everything - yes. A plan - no.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 20 Oct 19 - 02:04 PM

Despite all the warblings of remainiacs the fact remains that Boris represents the majority. All the nonsense about burke and who MPs represent will be made abundantly clear at the next election. The latest estimates suggest magic grandad will lose a hundred seats.
It will be a joy to behold. The leftie squawking we see here will be shown to the world as the delusions of the minority.
Bring it on I say.
TIC TOC! if nothing else we will be rid of the treacherous dwarf come halloween. With any luck the Aos Sí will take the wretch away to the otherworld.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 20 Oct 19 - 12:29 PM

What a pathetic gesture it was for Johnson not to sign the letter asking for an a extension.

The behaviour of a child, and a belligerent child at that.

I look forward to the result of the case in Edinburgh, I can only hope they find him in contempt.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Oct 19 - 09:40 AM

We don't pay MPs to "do what we want." We pay them to apprise themselves of the intricacies of the major issues confronting us and to act accordingly in the country's best interests. If MPs "did what we wanted" we'd likely be sending third-generation descendants of immigrants "back to where they came from," stringing people up, making people in prison sit in dungeon-like cells to eat dry bread, reducing the price of beer to 4d a pint, banning state benefits, banning strikes and bringing back the birch.

When we abolished capital punishment half a century ago I recall that it was said somewhere or other that 84% of the public disagreed. Had we put that to a referendum, "the will of the people" would have dictated that we carried on stringing people up. I dare say that a good number would have agreed to doing it in public and drawing and quartering to boot.

It would be thoroughly unscientific to jump to too many conclusions on listening to those vox pops, but they do indicate that large numbers of people are not apprised of the intricacies of this most major of issues. The referendum asked an ignorant public to make a decision crucial to the future of the country and the campaign failed utterly to provide them effectively with that information. Worse, it provided them with huge amounts of disinformation. The referendum was by far the most extreme example of the dereliction of democracy I've seen in this country in my lifetime. It was also an incredibly stupid thing to do. Next time you hear someone say that it was a "simple" in-out question, or that "the people have spoken," or that parliament should succumb "to the will of the nation," or that "it's been going on long enough and we should just get on with it," just remind yourself that you are talking to an utter pig-ignoramus.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 20 Oct 19 - 07:36 AM

I actually heard a Brexit-Bumpkin on a Radio 4 vox-pop yesterday say, “The problem is that MPs are voting for what’s best for the whole country, which is wrong - they should be voting for what we [the Brexit-Bumpkins] want”!

Is there no limit to Brexiteers’ mindless moronity?


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 20 Oct 19 - 06:43 AM

Had it been me I would have had the missive printed on a sheet of andrex, despite the reputed shortages created by project fear.
Boris represents what is left of our shattered democracy. The rebellious MPs make us a laughing stock throughout the world but lack the guts to dignify their actions by letting the sovereign vote of the people dictate outcomes.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Oct 19 - 06:14 AM

Johnson's letters shenanigans will go down as petty and petulant. The outcome would be the same had he written it on a crisp packet or baked bean tin. Now there's likely to be a court case. Idiot. I see that Labour would back an amendment calling for a referendum. I've given up trying to think what I should be thinking...


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 20 Oct 19 - 04:08 AM

Come the end of the month monies are due. Only the government, not parliament, can create legislation with a financial component.
The result of all these games is that Boris gains even more supporters for the inevitable election and parliament is seen to publicly destroy any pretense of being democratic. There will be consequences.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 20 Oct 19 - 03:23 AM

'Their' opponents, obviously.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 20 Oct 19 - 03:22 AM

The second letter is critical, but not for the reasons that may first appear. The fact the Benn Act letter is unsigned would normally cast its legal status into doubt: there is no evidence that the letter came from the PM at all = it could be some junior civil servant who sent it. So it would not, by itself, meet the requirements of the act, I suspect.

However the second letter, which was signed, says he has instructed the letter to be sent. That confirms that the 'Benn letter' is sent by the Prime Minister with the same legal weight as if he had signed it.

There is a key word in phrasing of the Act will, I think, be the crux of the Government's defence when this comes before the courts in the cases scheduled for Monday. It says:

The Prime Minister must seek to obtain from the European Council an extension of the period under Article 50(3) of the Treaty on European Union ending at 11.00pm on 31 October 2019 by sending to the President of the European Council a letter in the form set out in the Schedule to this Act

Notice it says 'by' rather than, for example, 'including but not limited to'.   They will, I think, argue that by sending the letter they have completely discharged their obligation to 'seek', since the 'by' clause defines what 'seek' means.   There opponents will argue that sending an unsigned letter is a clear breach of the intent of the Act, because unsigned documents generally have no legal significance.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Oct 19 - 06:45 PM

If you don't exactly expect your hallowed prime minister to act like a big kid, just contemplate the fact that Bozza has sent his letter, as required by the law of the land, but refused to sign it...Bwahahaha!


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 19 Oct 19 - 04:10 PM

He has to be stopped from bringing about an "accidental" no deal in two weeks' time or a crash-out at the end of 2020

It takes a worried man to sing a worried song..............!


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L3CjvyP4ed4


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Oct 19 - 03:46 PM

We have at the helm a man who told us a few short months ago that no Tory government could ever contemplate a customs border in the Irish Sea. He's now hailing his advocacy of that very idea as part of his brilliant deal. He's a liar. And that's why he's suffered today's defeat. He's a liar who can't be trusted on anything. He has to be stopped from bringing about an "accidental" no deal in two weeks' time or a crash-out at the end of 2020 (there's no way in heaven or earth that a trade deal will be clinched by then). We can't trust him not to shit all over workers' rights, a matter over which his deal afforded him a convenient getout. His assurances on that score mean nothing. Why? Because he's a liar.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Oct 19 - 03:31 PM

Take back control and give it to Trump.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: robomatic
Date: 19 Oct 19 - 02:39 PM

When I hear the Cummings mantra "take back control" I immediately wonder: "control of what" "take back control when you're 50 meters from the rocks in a leeward gale?" "what control had you before?"

"take back control" = "make America great again"


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 19 Oct 19 - 12:21 PM

I wonder how much of these events were wargamed by the tame machiavellian Mr Cummings.
It is not over until we hear the abbacus squawking!


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 19 Oct 19 - 11:35 AM

I am hearing some mistaken analysis on BBC News about the Letwin amendment. What they are missing is that it was an amendment to the text of a bill that was not passed. And therefore it has not entered into law. Yes, it puts the Benn Act into play, but if the speaker allows the bill to be voted on Monday it is a new motion and so unaffected by Letwin. Which means the danger that Letwin was avoiding resurfaces: it would be possible to pass the deal and then not pass the following legislation leading to the no deal drop out on 31 Oct that it was designed to avoid.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 19 Oct 19 - 10:14 AM

Interesting times ahead!


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 19 Oct 19 - 03:33 AM

Rudyard Kipling's "If" tends to get nominated whenever the general public is asked about its favourite poem. One couplet seems quite relevant for today:

If you can meet with Triumph and Disaster
And treat those two impostors just the same;

Whatever the outcome, the result will be an 'imposter' - it will be neither as good as its supporters claim, nor as bad as its detractors. It will not settle anything - there are (probably) many years of argument and negotiations to follow, and it will cast a long shadow on the next election whenever it comes, and the Parliament that arises.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Oct 19 - 01:04 PM

If that amiable but admittedly sharp buffoon Letwin gets his amendment on the agenda tomorrow (calling for a completion of all legislation surrounding the deal before there can be any approval of the deal), as he definitely should, Johnson will have to write his letter and ask for an extension. It wouldn't be impossible to get it all done before Halloween, but at least it would mean we couldn't "accidentally" (sure...) crash out without a deal.

I'm slightly appalled that a handful of Labour MPs can consider supporting a deal that gives a bloody Tory government free rein to shit all over workers' rights. Firm up, Jezza. Anyone who doesn't vote against must lose the whip.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 18 Oct 19 - 11:06 AM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jiUFPjulTW8


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Oct 19 - 09:35 AM

If this deal passes, we have, on paper, until the end of 2020 to get a trade deal with the EU. But I haven't heard a single source saying that that would be even remotely possible. It's going to take the best part of a year even to draw up a plan. There would be the scope to extend the extension by a year or two to conclude the trade deal, but there is already dark talk among Tory hardliners that it's the end of 2020 or it's nothing. I strongly believe that some of them are seeing this as a path to no-deal. I hope that the Labour leadership are apprising their doubting MPs of this possible direction of travel should enough of them support the deal to get it through. It looks like voting for this deal is the same thing as voting for no-deal.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 18 Oct 19 - 08:30 AM

Liberty have lost a bid to have an urgent hearing of its case as the appeal judges accepted the government's case that there was "ample time" for it to be heard before 31st October.

Some comments 'below the line' on media sites are spinning this as if the case itself has been lost, which is not the situation.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 18 Oct 19 - 06:46 AM

Steve - even if the court did find the proposed deal would against the law, I suspect the response would be to change the law rather than the deal. Since the deal has not been formally approved, providing the law was changed first there would be no conflict.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 18 Oct 19 - 06:33 AM

Even an 'Untouchable' backs the Treaty:
The Chairman of the official Britain Stronger in Europe (BSE) campaign, Stuart Rose, has come out as the latest supporter of Boris’s new Brexit deal.( A rose among the thorns…)

Speaking to the Today Programme, Rose – who led the designated campaign to Remain in the EU during the referendum – said

    “I think we’ve just got to move on, we’ve got to reflect on the pros and cons, we’ve put aside our differences, we’ve got to lean in and we’ve got to think of the bigger picture and purpose. So I support it…”


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 18 Oct 19 - 06:23 AM

Where we are now negates ben's treacherous bill.(HO HO HO)


A majority of people want the UK to respect the Brexit referendum result, according to a new poll.

The Comres survey revealed today that 54 per cent of people wanted to respect the Brexit referendum result and leave the European Union, with 32 per cent preferring to remain.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Oct 19 - 06:20 AM

Angela Merkel and Donald Tusk have both come out strongly in their own sweet ways to assert that the decisions to be made by the UK are ours alone and must not be influenced from outside. I guess that Jean Claude had an off-day yesterday. He's well known for leading with his gob...

Interesting court case in Scotland today. The deal could be illegal. I doubt it somehow but we'll see.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Oct 19 - 05:27 AM

An excellent tactic I've seen suggested in HuffPost this morning should the Johnson sellout be rejected by the Commons. Make him write his humiliating letter under the Benn act but continue to deny him his general election. Let the Tories/DUP/ERG stay bogged down for a few more months, giving them time to tear themselves to pieces. Then strike...


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Oct 19 - 07:43 PM

Anyway, it's a bad deal. Basically, Theresa May's badly tweaked. It should not be voted in just because of the fear of the beyond. There's a better chance now than ever before for no brexit if those politicians who genuinely have the interests of the country to heart vote the right way.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Oct 19 - 07:23 PM

For Brit consideration only: I've watched "Brexitcast" two or three times recently but tonight's programme was a delight. I like Laura and Katya a lot, and they, and Adam Fleming, knock sparks off each other. All these guys are close to "sources" and they give us useful insights with an informal light touch and relaxed neutrality. More, Beeb!


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Oct 19 - 06:14 PM

Question Time as I type is just terrible. Two decent women on the panel, three bloody idiots and a mass rabble. It's a stretch, but I'm hanging on to my belief in democracy...


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Oct 19 - 03:32 PM

It seems that the EU27 have contradicted Juncker and fully left open the option of an extension. As for the DUP, I suspect that their real beef with the customs border in the Irish Sea is the psychological appearance on the tabloid maps to that effect is that is looks just a tad more like a united Ireland.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Oct 19 - 03:25 PM

No more threads. The mods don't want any more brexit jobs and I agree. Just click on that little 'd' next to the little blue number. It doesn't matter if the thread is a million messages long if you do that: you get the latest posts straight away.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: robomatic
Date: 17 Oct 19 - 02:35 PM

NPR 'splained the deal this morning as I was wakee waking.l..
Much of the same as under Theresa except the Irish backstop gone, all Ireland is with EU and there is a customs wall between Ireland and the rest of the UK.

Was this not an obvious choice some time (years) ago? Did Boris make some vital change our contribute some unkempt hair magic that I'm missing? Or was Boris itself the magic addition? That of desperation?

Not to go all Hannah Arendt on y'all, but in this the age of Johnson and Tr-mp are we now to experience the "banality of Democracy"?

Also, it's time to start a new shorter thread....


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Oct 19 - 02:15 PM

The choice is between this deal and not having this deal. "Not having this deal" does not mean no deal. It could mean no brexit. A vote to reject the deal triggers a request for an extension, which will be granted, especially if a tie to a second referendum can be made. No EU nation or body wants us to leave, after all. The intervention by Juncker today was most unwelcome. He's going to have us thinking that unelected bureaucrats such as he can blackmail our sovereign parliament. I'm surprised and disappointed with him. He spoke out of order. He is clearly seeking his legacy. Poor show.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 17 Oct 19 - 02:08 PM

As I just tweeted, yet again - We don't just want to Brexit but to help get rid of the EU; apart from some local government, all any citizen of our world needs is their own nation & the United Nations - no G7 either; my poem, from WalkaboutsVerse, "Nationalism without Conquest" http://walkaboutsverse.blogspot.co.uk/2011/04/walkaboutsverse-84-of-230.html


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 17 Oct 19 - 02:07 PM

I agree that this makes the chances of Scotland voting to leave quite high. But I would only expect them t do that with a strong assurance that they could join the EU. Because there are advantages of doing that within the transition period, it is likely they will try to do that very soon - probably next year.

Let's all look forward to debates about the EU(Scotland) and England border. The proposed solution for NI would not work for Scotland.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: weerover
Date: 17 Oct 19 - 01:58 PM

The most repeated argument against a "Yes" vote in the 2014 referendum on Scottish independence was that if Scotland went independent it would lose EU membership, and that appeared to persuade many in s close vote. Scots then voted overwhelmingly "Remain" and Brexit would almost certainly result in a majority in Scotland now to favour independence. That would in due course lead to nuclear weapons being removed from Scottish soil, which would be the one positive outcome from this unholy mess.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 17 Oct 19 - 09:02 AM

Rees-Mogg said MPs would then vote either on a motion to back the deal, or on one to approve no deal. He explained:

The debate that follows will be a motion to either approve a deal or to approve a no-deal exit.

That debate on one or other of those motions would run for up to 90 minutes under the existing rules of this House.

=====
So it with EITHER be a motion to accept the deal OR a motion for no deal.

It will not be a motion to choose between them. This is unsurprising because there is no mechanism in Parliamentary votes to choose between alternatives.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 17 Oct 19 - 08:46 AM

Jacob Rees-Mogg has announced that on Saturday’s sitting, MPs will be presented with a single motion, presenting a choice between Boris’s new negotiated deal and no deal. This will be entirely compliant with the provisions of the Benn Act, as by voting against the deal MPs would have given consent to leaving on the 31st without a deal.
Genius in its simplicity…


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 17 Oct 19 - 08:07 AM

Donuel your post demonstrates you know not what you are talking about.
The deal is with the EU( a single body)
Any extension can be thwarted by a single country's veto.
I suggest you learn the distinction before posting.


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