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BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?

DMcG 27 Jan 19 - 07:54 AM
Dave the Gnome 27 Jan 19 - 07:53 AM
SPB-Cooperator 27 Jan 19 - 07:40 AM
DMcG 27 Jan 19 - 07:37 AM
SPB-Cooperator 27 Jan 19 - 07:29 AM
Dave the Gnome 27 Jan 19 - 07:24 AM
Steve Shaw 27 Jan 19 - 07:22 AM
Iains 27 Jan 19 - 07:12 AM
Jim Carroll 27 Jan 19 - 07:02 AM
DMcG 27 Jan 19 - 06:51 AM
DMcG 27 Jan 19 - 06:49 AM
Iains 27 Jan 19 - 06:43 AM
Iains 27 Jan 19 - 06:38 AM
Jim Carroll 27 Jan 19 - 05:56 AM
Steve Shaw 27 Jan 19 - 05:48 AM
Dave the Gnome 27 Jan 19 - 05:41 AM
Dave the Gnome 27 Jan 19 - 05:37 AM
DMcG 27 Jan 19 - 05:34 AM
DMcG 27 Jan 19 - 05:30 AM
SPB-Cooperator 27 Jan 19 - 05:13 AM
Iains 27 Jan 19 - 05:04 AM
Iains 27 Jan 19 - 04:11 AM
Jim Carroll 27 Jan 19 - 03:47 AM
Jim Carroll 27 Jan 19 - 03:47 AM
DMcG 27 Jan 19 - 02:20 AM
Steve Shaw 26 Jan 19 - 08:04 PM
DMcG 26 Jan 19 - 05:33 PM
Iains 26 Jan 19 - 04:46 PM
Iains 26 Jan 19 - 03:00 PM
DMcG 26 Jan 19 - 02:55 PM
Jim Carroll 26 Jan 19 - 02:41 PM
Iains 26 Jan 19 - 01:26 PM
Iains 26 Jan 19 - 01:16 PM
Jim Carroll 26 Jan 19 - 01:13 PM
Dave the Gnome 26 Jan 19 - 12:43 PM
McGrath of Harlow 26 Jan 19 - 12:20 PM
Iains 26 Jan 19 - 11:56 AM
DMcG 26 Jan 19 - 11:36 AM
Dave the Gnome 26 Jan 19 - 03:50 AM
Jim Carroll 26 Jan 19 - 03:12 AM
Jim Carroll 26 Jan 19 - 03:05 AM
Dave the Gnome 26 Jan 19 - 02:25 AM
robomatic 25 Jan 19 - 08:19 PM
McGrath of Harlow 25 Jan 19 - 07:29 PM
Backwoodsman 25 Jan 19 - 04:02 PM
Raggytash 25 Jan 19 - 04:00 PM
Dave the Gnome 25 Jan 19 - 03:55 PM
Backwoodsman 25 Jan 19 - 03:38 PM
Backwoodsman 25 Jan 19 - 03:35 PM
Dave the Gnome 25 Jan 19 - 02:46 PM
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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 27 Jan 19 - 07:54 AM

Whoops! I and other *remainers*. I would not want to mislead.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 27 Jan 19 - 07:53 AM

Thanks for the response, DMcG. I have to differ with you purely on the basis that any interaction at all only encourages some to continue their campaigns of abuse and disruption.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 27 Jan 19 - 07:40 AM

Steve, I gave Jim credit for your response, sorry Jim.

Freedom of movement is not just about travel, it is also the RIGHT to work, study, retire, live with another person. Again, a RIGHT, not the gift of an individual government which can be removed or have conditions attached to it at its whim. That is what treaties are for.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 27 Jan 19 - 07:37 AM

I don't like ignoring people, Dave. I will happy ignore posts are that are abuse, whoever posts them, and if I think someone is just trying to 'stir' I am also prepared to ignore them. But I think SPB's question is a good one and deserves an answer. That can only come from the Iains, Nigels, bobads and so on. I and other leavers can give our views, but it will have to be one of the leavers that answers.

Unless they avoid facing up to it which is what I expect. For example Nigel went as far as accepting there will be 'Some short term hardship' but was not openly prepared to say he is ready to accept his nearest and dearest suffering that hardship.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 27 Jan 19 - 07:29 AM

Jim, the vote may have been in ignorance of the likely outcome therefore leave voters should admit their ignorance or confess that they deliberately voted because they personally wanted to kick people in the teeth by denying them the rights that they themselves had enjoyed for 40 years. Anyone who says that the resented these benefits for decades are surely liars. And again, I will rephrase the question. Those of you who are still brexiters, why do you still personally believe that UK nationals, including myself should not be entitled to freedom of movement and the benefits of the customs union?

On a side issue, if in the future Cornwall is denied structural support and investment by the UK government, then the retired wannabe gentry should not be surprised if out-of-work Cornish people help them 'come home to a real fire'.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 27 Jan 19 - 07:24 AM

DMcG. Your patience knows no bounds! I am impressed. To be calmly and rationally explaining things to some who cannot tell the difference between "I am going to personalise it this time" and "not going to personalize it" takes some doing. I admire your fortitude but strongly suggest that you just ignore him as everyone else now does.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Jan 19 - 07:22 AM

Whilst in the EU we abide by laws and regulations (a small minority of the ones that govern us, actually, as we are free to draw up all our domestic laws) that we have helped in a big way to draw up and which we overwhelming agree with. Most EU law is agreed to by common consent, without dispute. When we leave the EU and are obliged to make deals with the likes of the US and China (both of whom can manage quite well without good deals with us), we will have no say over regulations. And as a small nation we will be far more under the thumb of mega-corporations than we are now, under the umbrella as we are of almost half a billion people. So much for the much-vaunted "sovereignty," the subject of one of the leave campaign's most bogus arguments. Along with the let's-keep-foreigners-out part of the campaign, it was the one that appealed most to the chest-thumping little-England sentiment.

So that's the sovereignty and the control-of-money-and-borders waffle dispatched. Next...


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 27 Jan 19 - 07:12 AM

ust over two month, and the useless garbage in government still have not guaranteed freedom of movement for UK nationals, or full benefit of the customs union and single market.

not going to personalize it ??????

You will still have freedom of movement. You may need a visa but not always.
As of 9 October 2018, British citizens had visa-free or visa on arrival access to 186 countries and territories, ranking the British passport 5th in terms of travel freedom (tied with Austrian, Dutch, Luxembourg, Irish, Norwegian, Portuguese and the United States passports) according to the Henley Passport Index. Visa free travel abroad is not uniform throughout the EU for it's citizens, it is dictated by each individual country,
Having a career mainly overseas for 45 years(not within the EU) freedom of travel was not a problem.

Leaving the EU meant leaving. That means leaving the EU customs union.
It is not like retrieving a piece of chewing gum from under the desk where remnants still adhere with tenuous links to the withdrawing entity.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Jan 19 - 07:02 AM

"Listen to Val McDermid's "
Saw an interview on Irish tele - amazing in-your - face lady (and a magnificent thriller writer)
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 27 Jan 19 - 06:51 AM

SPB's question. Damn autocorrect again.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 27 Jan 19 - 06:49 AM

That is noticeably not an answer to Son's question.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 27 Jan 19 - 06:43 AM

They haven't a clue as to what "sovereignty" means,.....

and their parents and grandparents did not know what sovereignty was during WW2 either I suppose.

You post some quite irrational material at times. No wonder you do not supply links. You would never find anyone to support you, other than the rabid left.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 27 Jan 19 - 06:38 AM

Then again she might not. Is that project fear? or another "once upon a time" story?m


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Jan 19 - 05:56 AM

Theresa may has been blocking reform of Northern Ireland's stringent pregnancy termination laws in order to keep Sectarian DUP on her side
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Jan 19 - 05:48 AM

They simply didn't know what they were voting for. They thought they were voting to kick Johnny Foreigner up the backside and stop him from coming here. They swallowed the hallowed lie that laws are forced on us by unelected Brussels bureaucrats. They didn't take your interests or mine or the good citizens of the EU into consideration. They didn't realise the mortal threat to peace in Northern Ireland. They didn't realise that we would relinquish a powerful controlling hand on future EU policy and that bad things are now going to happen in consequence. They haven't a clue as to what "sovereignty" means, or that we are now going to lose "control" of a damn sight more money than ever got tied up with the EU. They forgot that "control of our borders" can only work one way and that we are now going to struggle to run our NHS and our care system, as if they aren't in enough Tory trouble already. They talk bullshit about "opportunities" and believed the vacuous promises that countries were going to fall over themselves to sign trade deals with us. We were promised forty by now, but we have yet to sign a single one. In their brainless hubris they thought they knew better along with their mates down the boozer than the people who are paid full-time to know better. They think that their cross on the ballot meant this, that and the other, when it was just a cross, not even an English word. The people who voted leave were either gullible, racists or gullible racists. And look where they've got us.

If you can, tune into Point Of View on Radio 4 on the iPlayer. Listen to Val McDermid's clear-headed exposition of why referendums are such a bloody stupid idea and how they can, and will, undermine and ultimately wreck democracy.

One day I'll tell you what I really think.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 27 Jan 19 - 05:41 AM

Farage rather than garage of course. Before the people with only enough wit to use spelling mistakes as arguments jump on me.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 27 Jan 19 - 05:37 AM

One of the many lies told and promises broken, SPB, was that it would be easy to negotiate the things you want. I think that those who voted to leave genuinely believed it would be. I would not blame them but rather put the blame on the shower of shits who blatantly lied, made promises they could not keep and then blamed it on everyone but themselves. In order

Nigel Garage
Boris Johnson
Michael Gove

David Cameron must be included because he should have known better and Jacob Rees-Mogg just for being a twat.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 27 Jan 19 - 05:34 AM

MSN reporting martial law being considered

Exaggeration or not, this is how the situation is being reported.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 27 Jan 19 - 05:30 AM

I am afraid that seems a load of sociology waffle to me.

Fair enough, they are more important things to discuss. But for the record it is formal logic and to do with independence of variables, not sociology.


As for SPB's question - I have my hypotheses why that happens, but being on the Remainer side of the fence, it is for others to answer.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 27 Jan 19 - 05:13 AM

I am going to personalise it this time. Just over two month, and the useless garbage in government still have not guaranteed freedom of movement for UK nationals, or full benefit of the customs union and single market. I challenge the brexshitters here to tell me to my face why they feel they personally feel that I should not be entitled to this. The sniveling cowards will say 'because that is what the people voted for, not some crap like that'. I want to kn ow why they personally voted to **** up my rights as a European citizen. Is ****ing up peoples lives just a big joke to you all?

?


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 27 Jan 19 - 05:04 AM

I should perhaps say it wasn't the role of the education that I was really responding to, but the wider logical fallacy that if a characteristic is shared by the whole population it 'cancels out'. It can do, of course, but it is how the characteristic interacts with other factors that determines whether it does or not.
I am afraid that seems a load of sociology waffle to me. If pointy heads cannot even predict the voting preferences of an electorate then taking any notice of their pontifications as to why they voted is a reckless pastime and could lead to all sorts of erroneous conclusions.

In the US I believe a sociology degree is generally a BA. Hardly a hard science, is it?


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 27 Jan 19 - 04:11 AM

Brexit was sold as a pig-in-a-poke, largely on promises that (WOULD) could not be honoured
Aaah yes! The promise to honour the result ofthe referendum that looks increasingly like it will not be honoured by our treacherous mps.

More fine antics of labour's MPs corbyn and abbott:

Jeremy Corbyn and Diane Abbott 'wreck' law to protect child abuse victims over fears a new data sharing treaty with the US could be used to sentence a criminal to death.

As a commentator said:
"Whatever is wrong with Corbyn and Abbott? They are a total disgrace to democracy and justice. Protection of children should be our most important priority as human beings."


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Jan 19 - 03:47 AM

"it may be a way of resolving some of the issues."
Considering what some of those issues are, that would be enough for me
Don't you think that, now that we have a clearer view of what leaving Europe means, none of which was available able at the time of the first vote, the people are entitled to a chance to confirm that this is how they see the future of Britain ?
Brexit was sold as a pig-in-a-poke, largely on promises that could not be honoured
It seems to me the only democratic thing to do is to vot again
Britain can hardly become more divided that it is at present, unless you consider Civil War a possibility
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Jan 19 - 03:47 AM

"it may be a way of resolving some of the issues."
Considering what some of those issues are, that would be enough for me
Don't you think that, now that we have a clearer view of what leaving Europe means, none of which was available able at the time of the first vote, the people are entitled to a chance to confirm that this is how they see the future of Britain ?
Brexit was sold as a pig-in-a-poke, largely on promises that could not be honoured
It seems to me the only democratic thing to do is to vot again
Britain can hardly become more divided that it is at present, unless you consider Civil War a possibility
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 27 Jan 19 - 02:20 AM

No, I don't think it is an argument for a second referendum. Or indeed against one. The factors that argue against a second referendum are those listed earlier. The only argument in favour of a second referendum I am aware of is that it may be a way of resolving some of the issues. To me, it is like Russian Roulette. Yes, if you play you may end up blowing you head off. So it only becomes sensible to play it when that is a lower risk than not playing.

I should perhaps say it wasn't the role of the education that I was really responding to, but the wider logical fallacy that if a characteristic is shared by the whole population it 'cancels out'. It can do, of course, but it is how the characteristic interacts with other factors that determines whether it does or not.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Jan 19 - 08:04 PM

So, DMcG, is that an argument for "a second referendum," or is it a rock-solid argument for not having referendums at all? By extension, is it an argument that the 2016 referendum was illegitimate?

You probably know what I think!


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 26 Jan 19 - 05:33 PM

On the other hand:

But Peter Kellner, the former president of the YouGov polling firm, said Sheerman was factually correct.
“I would not use Barry Sheerman’s choice of words but the facts are broadly on his side,” Kellner told BBC Radio 4’s Today programme on Monday.
“Overall, people who left school at 15 or 16 voted around two to one for Brexit. [For] people who got up to A-level or equivalent qualification [it was] 50:50. Graduates voted two to one to remain in the EU.
“So yes, there is quite a clear educational gradient in the way people voted in last year’s referendum.”


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 26 Jan 19 - 04:46 PM

From yougov:
The most dramatic split is along the lines of education. 70% of voters whose educational attainment is only GCSE or lower voted to Leave, while 68% of voters with a university degree voted to Remain in the EU. Those with A levels and no degree were evenly split, 50% to 50%.

Age is the other great fault line. Under-25s were more than twice as likely to vote Remain (71%) than Leave (29%). Among over-65s the picture is almost the exact opposite, as 64% of over-65s voted to Leave while only 36% voted to Remain. Among the other age groups, voters aged 24 to 49 narrowly opted for Remain (54%) over leave (46%) while 60% of voters between the ages of 50 and 64 went for Leave.

70%/68% Dramatic? dont fink so!


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 26 Jan 19 - 03:00 PM

From the same article:
Over 1,000 adults were asked by Amarách Research for Claire Byrne Live yesterday, and 65% of people said they were fearful, while 24% said they weren’t.

It comes after a number of security alerts in Derry city in recent days, with the most recent last night involving a van reported abandoned outside a girls’ secondary school.

A number of incidents yesterday followed the explosion of a car bomb from outside a courthouse on Bishop Street in the city on Saturday night.

A comment below the article:
"Personally i think that the bomb attack at the weekend wasn`t to do with Brexit, but had more to do with the anniversary of 100 years ago and the first shots fired at Soloheadbeg, The bombing was exactly 100 years to the day of that anniversary which were claimed to be the first shots fired in Ireland`s civil war, it seems like this “New IRA” were trying to make a statement of some sort"

The official view of the UK government:
The attack that happened on Saturday night is the result of a threat level that has been in place before the Brexit vote, these are plots and activities that these people have been working on and trying to carry out for many, many years.

This rather confirms the statement:
The Taoiseach has come under fire for “inflaming tensions” with “reckless and irresponsible” warnings......".


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 26 Jan 19 - 02:55 PM

An ignorant electorate is easier to manipulate :

That argument applies equally to both sides, therefore the effect is self cancelling.


I am afraid not: that assumes for example that the voting patterns of those with higher formal qualifications and without was the same, for example, which we know it wasn't. Also, it would not be self cancelling if those wanting outcome A were more prepared to manipulate - or more effective - than those wanting outcome B: even if the electorate were equally manipulatable the effect would not cancel out.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Jan 19 - 02:41 PM

https://www.thejournal.ie/violence-north-brexit-4452334-Jan2019/
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 26 Jan 19 - 01:26 PM

I have no tim for the man and his policies, but I really can't see much wrong with what he said

That will put you in a very small minority then!

The Taoiseach has come under fire for “inflaming tensions” with “reckless and irresponsible” warnings of a return to soldiers and checkpoints along the border if there is a no-deal Brexit.


https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/ireland/taoiseachunder-fire-for-border-soldiers-warning-900216.html


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 26 Jan 19 - 01:16 PM

An ignorant electorate is easier to manipulate :

That argument applies equally to both sides,therefore the effect is self cancelling. Many of those subject to Tory education cuts are still below voting age, whereas those whose education was destroyed by Labout education cuts are fully enfranchised.
Was it not the Labour MP AnthonyCrossland said "If it's the last thing I do, I'm going to destroy every fucking grammar school in England. And Wales. And Northern Ireland."    Crosland is so quoted by his wife Susan Crosland in her biography. Hewent toa fee paying school
and from the Gruniard:
" Labour MP Diane Abbott made a second attempt to defend her decision to send her son to a fee-paying school, after she was attacked by her neighbouring MP in East London. ... Since then she has admitted her decision was "indefensible" but attacked the state of the education system"
A familiar pattern of labour elitism emerging here I fear.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Jan 19 - 01:13 PM

Northern Ireland demonstrators out in force today demanding there should be no hard border
Perhaps the problems that Ireland, both sides of the border, will eventually filter down to those who claim it's the Irish and Europe who are being intransigent - it's the UKwho have thrown their toys out of the pram and now they are demanding that everybody else has to pick them up

Leo Varadkar got himself into hot water yesterday by suggesting the possibility of troops returning to te North _ I have no tim for the man and his policies, but I really can't see much wrong with what he said - there is a distinct possibility that, if things continue the way they are going British troops will have to return to keep order
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 26 Jan 19 - 12:43 PM

I doubt that many leavers would understand that, Kevin. In a recent survey, linked above, 26% of people thought that no deal meant we would be staying in the EU.

Maybe I am lucky in that I studied British constitution and government, and Economics at college but I thought that more people used to understand what was actually going on in politics than this. I guess the Tory cuts to education have done the job they were designed to do. An ignorant electorate is easier to manipulate :-(


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 26 Jan 19 - 12:20 PM

One persistent assertion of the "no deal" Brexiteers is that leaving with no deal would mean £39 billion to play with that they wouldn't have to give to those nasty foreigners. What they ignore is that that £39 billion is not a fine for leaving, it is payment in respect of debts incurred by the EU - a version of those debts which has if anything been pared down to assist the UK in these difficult times.

Failing to pay would be a matter of the UK defaulting on its debts, which is not a very good basis for winning the trust of any tother countries in conducting any kind of business or negotiation. The term used in such cases is "pariah state". Or to use a term with historical basis in the case of this country "Albion perfide".


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 26 Jan 19 - 11:56 AM

It's the only way to demonstrate who are, and who are not, the 'bastards' (as the Mods so charmingly describe those who challenge bigotry and provocation) on here.

https://mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=161452
seems very clear to me who the b******s are. It is the usual suspects!

Perhaps a kind forum fairy would close this thread as it now merely seems to consist of repeated personal attacks by the "usual"


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 26 Jan 19 - 11:36 AM

So it looks like the most likely amendment to pass on Tuesday is a Tory one to go back and renegotiate the backstop. Meanwhile the EU is clear the price of reopening the backstop discussions is a permanent customs union. Which of course the reason the Leavers want the backstop changed.

Place your bets now whether Parliament will vote to demand rejection of the backstop.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 26 Jan 19 - 03:50 AM

"resonant with me then" should have read "resonant with me first time round".


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Jan 19 - 03:12 AM

Spell corrector went haywire there
It has become clear to me that if he kicks off again, as he appears to be doing the mods will have no alternative but to do something take action against him

Faulty posting should keep hi busy for a while
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Jan 19 - 03:05 AM

"Then it's time to ignore him."
It has become clear to me that if he kicks off again, as he appears to be now doing, the Mods will have no alliterative Then it's time to ignore him.but to take action against him
Any reacting to or against his indefensible behaviour can only prolong his trolling - as I have been told constantly by a mod "stop feeding the troll- makes sense to me
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 26 Jan 19 - 02:25 AM

Good summary, Robomatic.

Of course both Trump supporters and EU leavers will deny any element of fear, ignorance or racism and I don't believe for one minute that either group have a majority of people displaying those attributes. But, as you say, it doesn't take many to make a difference.

I have just finished re-reading "The Truth" by Terry Pratchett. One of the lines that was resonant with me then is even more so now.

A lie can run round the world before the truth has got its boots on.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: robomatic
Date: 25 Jan 19 - 08:19 PM

This has certainly affected the US economy. It is probably relating to some of the comments that are focused on current economic plights.

Worldwide population is inexorably growing, thus increasing the availability of labor, esp. cheap and very cheap labor.
Technology has enabled the reliable movement of capital.

The above two points have led to what is called globalism.
Uncontrolled it leads to rapid impoverishment of once stable working classes.
With regulation and some discomfort, it can lead to the changes in manufacturing and service industries that most of us have been witness to.
With controls and tariffs and embargoes, many of the inevitable changes can be held off for a time providing false sense of security and temporary job pseudo-stability.

The development of the EU, and such agreements in the West and Asia as NAFTA and the TPP were attempts to acknowledge the inevitable changes to the world economy while minimizing (the over-used fancy work is 'mitigating') the pain of displacement and redundancy. Obama was onto this, but unfortunately Trump made a successful appeal to fear and ignorance. I think the BREXIT affair was parallel only that Europe had its own issues (the bureaucratic rule out of Brussels and the population displacement out of Turkey, Arabia and Africa. What the anti EU and anti-Obama movements had in common was fear (a lot of it understandable) and a certain amount of racism (not accusing everyone of racism, just saying that it doesn't take much to make a difference).

Bottom line: These changes are going to come regardless, and those who can manage to align for them will experience the least pain.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Jan 19 - 07:29 PM

I strongly suspect that most people in the rest of the EU are crossing their fingers against the possibility that the UK might change its mind and stay in. That's among those who are particularly interested in the whole thing. A silent majority - rather similar to what was revealed in a study that found that a large majority of Tories would be happy to see the back of Scotland and Northern Ireland if that would mean that Brexit went ahead. So much for Theresa May's "our precious union".

Large majorities of English Tory voters would be willing to support Scottish independence (79 percent) or even the undoing of the Northern Ireland peace process (75 percent) as “worth it” to “take back control” from the European Union, new research from the Universities of Edinburgh and Cardiff has suggested.
Reuter’s, October 2018.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 25 Jan 19 - 04:02 PM

You have a point Dave. ;-)


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 25 Jan 19 - 04:00 PM

I suspect a quite word has been said in his earhole ......

Back to Brexit.

The UK government has been training people to prepare for a disorderly exit from the UK.

A sign of things to come.

Could someone please link to the article in todays Guardian.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 25 Jan 19 - 03:55 PM

No point, John. You know what is coming so just ignore him full stop.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 25 Jan 19 - 03:38 PM

On the subject of our Troll, if he's posting sensibly and civilly I have no problem interacting with him. Unfortunately, his psychiatric disorder means that he seldom keeps it up for long. Then it's time to ignore him.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 25 Jan 19 - 03:35 PM

I have a cunning plan... :-) :-)


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 25 Jan 19 - 02:46 PM

...All we need to happen now is for May to listen to her chancellor and take no deal off the table. Corbyn will then add some real sense and we can move the whole shambles into a firmer footing.


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