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BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?

Iains 21 Sep 19 - 04:55 AM
Steve Shaw 21 Sep 19 - 04:14 AM
DMcG 21 Sep 19 - 03:04 AM
Steve Shaw 20 Sep 19 - 06:35 PM
DMcG 20 Sep 19 - 07:50 AM
DMcG 20 Sep 19 - 07:42 AM
Jim Carroll 20 Sep 19 - 07:14 AM
Steve Shaw 20 Sep 19 - 07:08 AM
Dave the Gnome 20 Sep 19 - 05:58 AM
Jim Carroll 20 Sep 19 - 05:00 AM
Iains 20 Sep 19 - 04:22 AM
Iains 20 Sep 19 - 04:09 AM
Jim Carroll 20 Sep 19 - 03:19 AM
Dave the Gnome 20 Sep 19 - 03:18 AM
Backwoodsman 20 Sep 19 - 02:37 AM
Stanron 19 Sep 19 - 08:36 PM
Jim Carroll 19 Sep 19 - 08:03 PM
Steve Shaw 19 Sep 19 - 05:15 PM
Nigel Parsons 19 Sep 19 - 02:59 PM
Nigel Parsons 19 Sep 19 - 02:51 PM
Jim Carroll 19 Sep 19 - 02:49 PM
Nigel Parsons 19 Sep 19 - 02:18 PM
Iains 19 Sep 19 - 02:12 PM
DMcG 19 Sep 19 - 01:51 PM
Nigel Parsons 19 Sep 19 - 01:33 PM
Jim Carroll 19 Sep 19 - 05:57 AM
DMcG 19 Sep 19 - 05:39 AM
DMcG 18 Sep 19 - 05:41 AM
Jim Carroll 18 Sep 19 - 02:31 AM
Jim Carroll 17 Sep 19 - 04:49 PM
Iains 17 Sep 19 - 02:35 PM
DMcG 17 Sep 19 - 01:39 PM
Iains 17 Sep 19 - 08:09 AM
Dave the Gnome 17 Sep 19 - 08:01 AM
Steve Shaw 17 Sep 19 - 06:27 AM
Steve Shaw 17 Sep 19 - 05:18 AM
Steve Shaw 17 Sep 19 - 05:06 AM
Nigel Parsons 17 Sep 19 - 04:55 AM
McGrath of Harlow 16 Sep 19 - 08:36 PM
Steve Shaw 16 Sep 19 - 12:10 PM
DMcG 16 Sep 19 - 12:05 PM
Jim Carroll 16 Sep 19 - 10:08 AM
Steve Shaw 16 Sep 19 - 09:38 AM
Jim Carroll 16 Sep 19 - 09:32 AM
Steve Shaw 16 Sep 19 - 09:02 AM
Jim Carroll 16 Sep 19 - 08:12 AM
DMcG 16 Sep 19 - 06:54 AM
Jim Carroll 16 Sep 19 - 06:36 AM
Nigel Parsons 16 Sep 19 - 06:15 AM
Steve Shaw 16 Sep 19 - 06:01 AM
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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 21 Sep 19 - 04:55 AM

New polling by Ipsos MORI today has revealed Jeremy Corbyn is solidifying his position as the least popular Leader of the Opposition in the history of British politics. No surprise he keeps voting down an election…

At the end of June, Corbyn dropped to the lowest ever LOTO rating with -58 approval, but today he has surpassed even that – dropping a clear four points behind Michael Foot’s personal best. He went on to lead Labour to its worst defeat since before the second world war, granting the Tories a 144 seat majority…

https://twitter.com/benatipsosmori/status/1175021691124236289

Looks like magic grandpa needs to pull a few rabbits out of the hat!


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Sep 19 - 04:14 AM

Indeed. On Brexit and another referendum I find meself more in agreement with Watson than Corbyn. I think that Labour should uncompromisingly campaign for remain. But Watson has spent several years unfailingly trying to undermine Corbyn. He's a pain in the arse, a disloyal thorn in the side and a bloody lightweight to boot. It speaks highly of the democratic values of the party that he's been allowed to try to damage the leader for so long. But these manoeuvres reek of a car crash. Daft.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 21 Sep 19 - 03:04 AM

We could be in for a major rumpus over Tom Watson. Damn...

I would say we are already in one, simply by tabling the matter at the NEC. It is a completely unnecessary battle, naturally. Have the real and significant battle over the Brexit policy, then Tom either falls in line with it, or can be "regretfully stood down" on a matter if principle if he opposes conference's decision. Tabling an NEC motion before the Brexit composite is even written immediately creates charges of manipulation and says the party is vulnerable to internal pressure groups for whom control of the party outweighs any other matter. Red meat for the tabloids...


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Sep 19 - 06:35 PM

We could be in for a major rumpus over Tom Watson. Damn...


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 20 Sep 19 - 07:50 AM

"Remove decision"?? Revoke, obviously.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 20 Sep 19 - 07:42 AM

I think all the party conferences this year are going to be fairly dramatic. The LibDem ones occasionally have great enthusiasm ("Prepare for Government", Cleggmania) which ends up not getting very far, but the Remove decision is I think in a different league: it could have a major effect. Admittedly splitting the remain vote and letting the Leave groups in by default, but a major effect nevertheless.

As you say, the Labour one will have a great deal to fight about over its Brexit policy statement that will drive the next Manifesto.

And the Tory one … well, let's see.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Sep 19 - 07:14 AM

Dave
If he's not going to be shifted for attacking the Mods, he's never going to go
Some of us believe he has been planted to sabotage this forum - his love affair with T.R. suggests who that might be -
His undermining of this forum by attackings its officers adds to that suggestion
I have no more to say on this matter
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Sep 19 - 07:08 AM

Anyway, chaps...

It could be that the ordure will collide with the rapidly-whirring blade at the Labour conference this weekend. The left are going to press Corbyn to campaign all-out for remain. Looked at in the round, his plan to get a deal that keeps us in a customs union (thereby, among other things, eliminating the border issue) and close to the single market seems like a decent compromise, but the stubborn fact remains that that would still not be in the country's best interests. That could only be served by staying in the EU. As we know, no-one on this board or anywhere else has managed, in three years, to tell us how we'd be better off out. If he gets a deal to sign up to, he can hardly then campaign for remain. This has got to be sorted before an election campaign otherwise we're stuffed. What we don't need is a bust-up this weekend. Unfortunately, the left are pretty good at doing that. And I'm one of 'em...


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 Sep 19 - 05:58 AM

Jim!


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Sep 19 - 05:00 AM

Examples please!
Try "politically motivated moderator."


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 20 Sep 19 - 04:22 AM

I asked what the link preves and as Iain's is obviously incapable of carrying out a conversation without vomiting abuse

Examples please!

What I do is correct many of your more asinine statements. Sometimes this requires pointing out that you are a fool. If you regard that as abuse so be it.
You are not capable of making a post without being both provocative and insulting.

It is the classic definition of trolling.
You are far and away the biggest troublemaker on this site. If not for your folk music 'contributions' your arse would have been grass on this forum years ago.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 20 Sep 19 - 04:09 AM

Nigel the first link I posted was by Guido

https://order-order.com/2019/09/19/lib-dems-leapfrog-labour-latest-poll/

Quoting guido seems to upset people, including a politically motivated moderator.
As yet I have seem not one suggestion that Guido's factual content is inaccurate, a charge that the Guardian is guilty of on occasions!

Therefore I will ask all the moderators Why was it deleted?
It was a reference to a respected polling organisation.

We have had very recent postings on clearly Brexit threads commenting on the Israeli elections.

Why are they not deleted?


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Sep 19 - 03:19 AM

"The idea that Boris 'lied' about the press is ludicrous."
It was openly admited by the Daily Telegraph woman last night, who, after trying to make excuses for him, shouted over the jeers "OK - he lied, I don't deny it"
The other tory refused to comment but instead, entered into a diatribe about how much money they were spending on The NHS
They are proving over and over again that they care more about their place in Government and the privilege it brings than they do the people who elect them
I watched the original interview on Sky on the night it happened - he lied and he lied stupidly
The interviewee actually pointed to the press camera and Johnson grinned and shrugged - in his lovely oafish way
The whole thing was a disgusting photo-opportunity for him and his few mates - he can't even claim to be acting for his party any more - having sacked the best of them
Instead of preening in front of the cameas, every last one of these people need to be locked in deep discussion tying to dig Britain out ogf the mess their antics has sunk it into - on the instructions of the unelected cummings, he silences the only voice the British people have and ponces off electioneering
Is that reall what you believe Britain's leaders should be doing at a time like this ?

A summary of the trustworthiness of hand-on-heart Johnson
JOHNSON'S HONESTY IN 37 EPISODES

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/boris-johnson-lies-conservative-leader-candidate-list-times-banana-brexit-bus-a8929076.html

Jim Caarroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 Sep 19 - 03:18 AM

So, Stanron, you believe Boris did not lie but chose chose to play word games with the distraught father of a seriously ill child. How is that any better? Then his supporters, including you presumably, chose to add to the suffering of the same distraught father by slagging him off and saying he was using his child as a political pawn.

Politics has become critically sick itself and Boris is the epitome of that illness. I hope it is terminal and when it passes this incarnation is replaced with something more caring and compadionate.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 20 Sep 19 - 02:37 AM

So the father of the child mistakenly used the wrong word to describe the assembled multitude of photographers? Doesn’t alter the fact of Johnson’s purpose for being there one iota. He was there for a photo-opportunity, to pretend that he’s doing something worthwhile, nothing more.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Stanron
Date: 19 Sep 19 - 08:36 PM

The idea that Boris 'lied' about the press is ludicrous. It's a matter of inaccurate definitions. The clue is in the word 'press'. You know, the Gutenberg press. The device that transferred ink from a copper plate or a reverse text composite to paper was a screw thread driven press. It became the default name for newspapers.

Cameras are 'media'. Younger generations than me might think of TV and film as press but I don't. Cameras and TV are newer versions of the press but to me they are not the same.

Johnson has spent a large part of his working life employed by the press. He looked around and saw no journalists. He said there were no press and he was right. He was right because he can tell the difference between text based press and moving visual media. Of course to be able to discern differences requires an ability to discriminate. We all know what Labour thinks about discrimination.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Sep 19 - 08:03 PM

"I was not trying to "prove" anything"
I didn't suggest you were - I asked what the link preves and as Iain's is obviously incapable of carrying out a conversation without vomiting abuse, I thought you might be able to help
Must say, I have never noticed you either supporting nor criticising Iains - I have suggested on numerous occasions that you and Stanron avoid many of these discussions because you might not wish to be associated with his behaviour - who's to blame you ?
I've also suggested that these threads might benefit from some articulate, intelligent responses from those who support the crazy rabbit hole Britain has fallen into
We are no nearer to getting that than we were at the beginning
For me, Brexit was launched on an immoral and totally undemocratic platform and the longer it has gone on the more immoral and the less democratic it has become
I have enough faith in humanity to believe that not all of those on the right support how Brexit was sold, the damage it has already done to our society, and the further damage it is almost set fair to continue to do
I came here in the hope of sharing agred and contrasting ideas with others - why are we not able to do it on the subject that is going to leave its mark on all out lives ?
Help me out - instead of providing links to meanless non-information, why not tell us what you think ?

For the record - even Boris Johnson's colleagues and supporters believe he deliberately lied about not knowing the press was at the hospital yesterday
on tonight's Questions Time - the lady from The Daily Telegraph said he lied - shouted it even, and the incredibly evasively dishonest legal lady refused to deny he had and spoke about everything other than the questions put to her
Guilt as charged Bozza
I fell deeper in love with Fiona tonight as she nodded vigorously when someone said Johnson couldn't be trusted - wonder if she's married !!

It was a relief that none of them sang as low as the bum wipe Press (and our own own equivalent here) in describing the father of the very ill three month old child as anything but - "the father of a very ill three month child"
Only the lowest scum and shitwaders would have described him as anything else - certainly not a "Labour activist"
Only scum-buckets of the lowest order would sink that low, wouldn't they!!
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Sep 19 - 05:15 PM

By your friends shall we know thee.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 19 Sep 19 - 02:59 PM

From: Jim Carroll - PM
Date: 19 Sep 19 - 02:49 PM

Not sure what that proves Nigel apart from the growing unpopularity of Brexit, given the Lib Dems's decision to kick in into touch without a second referendum


I was not trying to "prove" anything. Just replacing Iain's link with one that actually works.
Some of your colleagues seem to think that I never try to correct anything of Iain's. I have in the past, and I may again. But generally I agree with his viewpoint on Brexit, although we may be in the minority (against a vociferous majority) here.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 19 Sep 19 - 02:51 PM

Nigel Farage on what's on offer
If you let it run, it gives views by Tony Benn.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Sep 19 - 02:49 PM

Not sure what that proves Nigel apart from the growing unpopularity of Brexit, given the Lib Dems's decision to kick in into touch without a second referendum
I Don't trust them any more than I do your now self-decimated minority party, but maybe they've found their way to winning the people's hearts your mob are happily losing
Maybe the opinions of those people are less important than the wafer thin majority that squeezed though this now provenly destructive decision

Your dumb and dumbest friend seems totally incapable of working out that THE MODS ON THIS FORUM HAVE NEVER, IN MY EXPERIENCE, DELETED ANYTHING ON POLITICAL GROUNDS - IT'S MORE THAN THEIR JOBS ARE WORTH - WHAT THEY DO DELETE IS THE PERMANENTLY ABUSIVE POSTINGS WHICH SOME PEOPLE SEEM INCAPABLE OF REFRAINING FROM POLLUTING THIS THREAD WITH - MORE POWER TO THEIR ELBOW
He needs to consider himself very lucky he hasn't been kicked out on his abusive arse long ago
Pass it on please
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 19 Sep 19 - 02:18 PM

Iains: Maybe it's because your link goes to "Page not found".
Here is the story: Labour now third


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 19 Sep 19 - 02:12 PM

Labour slips to third place in the polls.

Why this bit of information was deleted earlier escapes me. Does a moderator not like the poll result, or simply displaying a bias?


https://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-britain-election/liberal-democrats-overtake-the-labour-party-in-a-potential-general-election-p


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 19 Sep 19 - 01:51 PM

Is this the same John Major who 'prorogued' Parliament for 3 weeks (not just 4/5 days) to avoid claims about "Cash for questions"?

Yes, and that was raised and discussed during the Supreme Court hearing. So it will be duly considered by senior judges and taken into account when they make their decision,

But greatly simplifying the argument presented, when John Major prorogued Parliament it made the Government and Parliament accountable to the electorate, whereas this occasion makes the Government less accountable. I am not a lawyer so I am sure that is a crude representation, but no doubt the transcripts will be available in due course.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 19 Sep 19 - 01:33 PM

Is this the same John Major who 'prorogued' Parliament for 3 weeks (not just 4/5 days) to avoid claims about "Cash for questions"?
Details https://fullfact.org/online/john-major-proroguing/, and is now saying that parliament has not been prorogued in the last 50 years?


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Sep 19 - 05:57 AM

Never thought I'd agree with this man -

Sir John Major has compared Boris Johnson to a dishonest estate agent,
saying that he had “ulterior motives” when he prorogued parliament.        
The former Tory prime minister,        whose lawyers will intervene today at the Supreme Court, has said in written submissions that Mr Johnson’s decision to suspend parliament was “unlawful”.
He argued that Mr Johnson’s justification for prorogation to bring forward        a new legislative programme “makes no sense and cannot be the true explanation”.
In a clear suggestion that Mr Johnson should not be believed, Sir John wrote that it would be “artificially naive” for the court to accept the prime minister’s stated reasons for the prorogation.

Talk about thieves falling out
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 19 Sep 19 - 05:39 AM

From the BBC live feed this morning:

=======
BBC Andrew Kerr
?
Final day of Supreme Court hearings into the legality of Parliamentary suspension. A top source from the UK Government said: "we’re stuffed". The other side remain optimistic - thinking it might go their way with 7/4 or 8/3 judge majority in their favour.

=======

The live feeds are interesting, though of course they absorb quite of a lot of time in monitoring. And as you would expect, the argument some Brexiteers have been making about the Bill of Rights has been raised, will be duly considered, and will influence the decision appropriately when it is reached.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 18 Sep 19 - 05:41 AM

In one of the live feeds is the text of a motion that the MEPs are voting on. Assuming this passes, this is the EU undersanting of what some are calling 'a clean break':

The European parliament ...
Notes that there can be no transition period in the absence of the withdrawal agreement nor any ‘mini-deals’ put in place to help mitigate the disruption of a disorderly withdrawal of the UK from the EU;
Stresses that further negotiations between the EU and the UK after the UK has withdrawn from the EU without a deal can only take place on condition that the UK honours its obligations and commitments in respect of citizens’ rights, the financial settlement and the Good Friday agreement in all its parts;
Notes that in the case of a ‘no-deal exit’, the UK’s financial and other obligations will still exist; affirms that in such a case it will refuse to give consent to any agreement or agreements between the EU and the UK unless and until the UK honours its commitments;
Recalls that, once such commitments are met, future EU-UK relations negotiations will require strong safeguards and level playing field provisions with a view to safeguarding the EU’s internal market and avoiding placing EU firms at a potential unfair competitive disadvantage; reiterates in that respect the conditions set out in its resolution of 14 March 2018 not least as regards ensuring high levels of environmental, employment and consumer protection; notes that any free trade agreement that fails to respect such levels of protection would not be ratified by the European parliament.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Sep 19 - 02:31 AM

Not won - that was the exit poll suggestion
Still too close to call
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Sep 19 - 04:49 PM

Laboour has won the Israeli election wheeeeee
Mabe the fascist tide is on the ebb


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 17 Sep 19 - 02:35 PM

To be or not to be ? Proroguing is the question!
an analysis:


http://judicialpowerproject.org.uk/r-miller-v-the-prime-minister-article-ix-prorogation-and-jurisdiction/

The article 9 mentioned above is:
Freedom of speech is guaranteed by article 9 of the Bill of Rights 1689: `freedom of speech and debates or proceedings in Parliament ought not to be impeached or questioned in any court or place out of Parliament'. It is the single most important parliamentary privilege


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 17 Sep 19 - 01:39 PM

OK, I am just getting round to commenting on the Luxembourg recation, where it seems Furious Tories invoke Second World War after Luxembourg leader's Boris Johnson press conference and are going on about Luxembourg trapping the Prime Minister and humiliating him by refusing to move the press conference indoors.


Press conferences don't just happen. Several days beforehand there are exchanges of proposals on how it will be run. I would have hoped there were people on the UK side thoughtful enough to notice:
... he had a very clear heckling background when he gave his press conference in Downing Street
... he was heckled in a walkabout in Doncaster, which made the news
... he was heckled during a speech in Rotherham on 'The Northern Powerhouse'
... there are lots of 'stop the coup' rallies nationwide

- so maybe now, several days before the conference we should ask for the press Q&A to be indoors.
And had they done so, Luxembourg would surely not have insisted it must be outside. To think they would requires a high level of paranoia, in my view.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 17 Sep 19 - 08:09 AM

The Electoral Commission has found that two Remain campaigns that were set up less than a month before the referendum campaign worked together, breaking electoral law.

    “We found that the ‘5 seconds campaign’ was a joint campaign run by WUAV and DDB UK Limited. Spending on the campaign was ‘joint’ or ‘common plan’ spending.”

Wake Up And Vote (WUAV) and DDB were just two of five campaigns that were all set up less than a month before the referendum, sharing big donors, and in total funnelling more than a million pounds into the Remain cause. The others seem to have avoided proper scrutiny…

It has only taken three years! This clearly illustrates the electoral Commission is totally unfit for purpose.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 17 Sep 19 - 08:01 AM

Nigel Farage walked into a bar and says "give me a pint!"
The barman obliges, and pours the pint over his head
"What are you doing?!" asked Farage "I didn't want it over my head!"
"You didn't specify how you wanted it ... as long as you get the pint, this way must be as good as in a glass, right?"
"Well, okay, I want another one ... but this time in a glass"
"Nope ... you only get to ask once."


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Sep 19 - 06:27 AM

Boris Johnson walks into a Bank to cash a cheque. As he approaches the cashier he says, "Good morning, Miss, could you please cash this cheque for me?"

Cashier:"It would be my pleasure. Could you please show me your ID?"

Johnson :"Truthfully, I did not bring my ID with me as I didn't think there was any need to. I am Boris Johnson, Prime Minister.

Cashier:"Yes, I know who you are, but with all the regulations and monitoring of the banks because of impostors and forgers and requirements of the legislation, etc., I must insist on seeing ID."

Johnson: Just ask anyone here at the bank who I am and they will tell you. Everybody knows who I am."

Cashier: "I am sorry, Mr Johnson, but these are the bank rules and I must follow them."

Johnson,"Come on please, I am urging you, please cash this cheque."

Cashier: "Look sir, here is an example of what we can do. One day, Tiger Woods came into the bank without ID. To prove he was Tiger Woods he pulled out his putter and made a beautiful shot across the bank into a cup. With that shot we knew him to be Tiger Woods and cashed his cheque."

"Another time, Andre Agassi came in without ID. He pulled out his tennis racket and made a fabulous shot where the tennis ball landed in my cup. With that shot we cashed his cheque. So, sir, what can you do to prove that it is you and only you?"

*Johnson stands there thinking and thinking and finally says, "Honestly, my mind is a total blank...there is nothing that comes to my mind. I can't think of a single thing. I have absolutely no idea what to do. I don't have a clue."*

Cashier: That will do, will that be large or small notes , Mr Johnson?....


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Sep 19 - 05:18 AM

Well, Nigel, as the wrinklies drop off the top the sucklings come in at the bottom. That doesn't necessarily maintain the present numbers split unless you assume that the current cohort gradually turns more brexity as they age. Too much has changed since 2016 to make that assumption. Not least, the profile of the UK in the EU has been raised astronomically. Until the referendum, Europe was hardly the most controversial issue on earth, and a sorry litany of Tory leaders has bitten the dust when they tried to make a Big Thing of it (poor William Hague...). Since the referendum, the hyped-up issue has already bagged Cameron and May. We could wish for a hat-trick. Well maybe you're not one of the "we", so perhaps you'd care to defend your current exalted leader for us...

Even after yesterday?


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Sep 19 - 05:06 AM

"And what should settle the argument about what is the "will of the people" is the fact that there is evidently unanimity among Brexiteers that a fresh People's Vote must not be allowed."

That's right. I think another vote would be close and probably not solve much, but I have a feeling it would mean we'd be staying put. We remainers would then certainly find it infra dig to go bleating on about "the will of the people." The country reflects the position of parliament in that there is no majority for anything. We are in this sorry mess first because we had that referendum in the first place and second because the bar was set way too low for a leave decision. Staying is relatively easy to reverse. Leaving is, in effect, irrevocable. The logic is irrefutable that, in times of uncertainty, the status quo is the safest place to be unless there is the OVERWHELMING and obvious desire for change. There is nothing overwhelming about less-than-52 to more-than-48. There's plenty of skin-of-the-teeth, and, moreover, if I might throw an awkward fact into the mix, 62+% of the electorate did not vote to leave.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 17 Sep 19 - 04:55 AM

And of course the margin of victory in 2016 was far smaller than the number of fresh voters who have joined the electoral roll since then, most of whom are generally accepted even by Brexiteers to be remainers.

There again, it is also generally accepted that it was (generally) the older generation which voted Brexit. A large number of voters will also have moved into this group (partly made up for by those who have died).

The whole electorate have grown older, so it is not necessarily just the youngest group which has increased in numbers.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 Sep 19 - 08:36 PM

There are no grounds whatsoever for claiming that there is today is a majority in this country for a no deal Brexit, or even for any Brexit.

Even in 2016 people rmerely voted to leave the European Union, that was the only thing on the ballot paper. There was nothing on that ballot paper about any of Theresa May's red lines such as having leaving the custome union or single market, or abolishing freedom of travel, all of which were in existence for years before the EU was established. A simple departure from the EU would have been available with no problems, and wouldn't have meant any problems in Ireland, for example.

And of course the margin of victory in 2016 was far smaller than the number of fresh voters who have joined the electoral roll since then, most of whom are generally accepted even by Brexiteers to be remainers.

And what should settle the argument about what is the "will of the people" is the fact that there is evidently unanimity among Brexiteers that a fresh People's Vote must not be allowed.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Sep 19 - 12:10 PM

Cri de coeur from the prime minister of Luxembourg Xavier Bettel...


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 16 Sep 19 - 12:05 PM

Concerning the Luxembourg press conference, Michael Deacon of the Telegraph tweeted:

My favourite episode of The Incredible Hulk is the one where a small group of people shouted too loudly so he ran away


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Sep 19 - 10:08 AM

It appears the EU are using Johnson's presence to sum up exactly what Britain's position is on leaving - nothing more
The general consensus is that there is as much of a chance of arriving at a a compromise involving selling out the Irish border as there is Bolton Wanderers winning the World Cup
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Sep 19 - 09:38 AM

As predicted, the EU remain unimpressed. The European commission has just put out this statement after the lunchtime meeting.

President Jean-Claude Juncker and Prime Minister Johnson had a working lunch today in Luxembourg. The aim of the meeting was to take stock of the ongoing technical talks between the EU and the UK and to discuss the next steps.

President Juncker recalled that it is the UK’s responsibility to come forward with legally operational solutions that are compatible with the withdrawal agreement. President Juncker underlined the commission’s continued willingness and openness to examine whether such proposals meet the objectives of the backstop. Such proposals have not yet been made...The EU27 remain united.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Sep 19 - 09:32 AM

"As soon as I saw Nigel's name"
I was hoping hews going to hang aroud
I doubt if he would be stupid enough to claim that Johnson was elected by or represented any "majority"
Your really couldn't make this stuff up
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Sep 19 - 09:02 AM

As soon as I saw Nigel's name I was convinced that he was going to nitpick me over Brussels. It was Luxembourg, not Brussels. There. I've self-nitpicked.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Sep 19 - 08:12 AM

Having just watched yet another depressing bout of news, as much as I detest the idea of Brexit, I'm beginning to think it takes second place to the idea that Johnson and his cretins will survive this farce
These people are dangerously insane
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 16 Sep 19 - 06:54 AM

Whether you agree with the sentiment or not, the is a definite cleverness to that crossword. There are already a lot of constraints when creating crosswords - conventions of symmetries for example - so to add in a whole new set of constraints is impressive.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Sep 19 - 06:36 AM

"I see Boris is taking his testosterone-fuelled hubris over to Brussels again..."
GOD HELP US ALL

Hi Nige !!
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 16 Sep 19 - 06:15 AM

I'm surprised not to see mention of Thursday's Guardian cryptic crossword here, with its embedded message in the top and bottom row of the grid. And some pertinent answers as well.
See it here: Guardian 27,924 cryptic
Of course, it could be that no-one here does the crossword.
If you can't be bothered to solve the crossword just click on 'reveal all' at the bottom.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Sep 19 - 06:01 AM

I see Boris is taking his testosterone-fuelled hubris over to Brussels again...


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