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BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?

Iains 21 May 19 - 05:11 AM
Iains 21 May 19 - 04:37 AM
Nigel Parsons 21 May 19 - 04:12 AM
Iains 21 May 19 - 03:49 AM
DMcG 20 May 19 - 02:25 PM
Jim Carroll 20 May 19 - 01:52 PM
Backwoodsman 20 May 19 - 01:33 PM
DMcG 20 May 19 - 01:08 PM
Iains 20 May 19 - 12:13 PM
Dave the Gnome 20 May 19 - 11:28 AM
Iains 20 May 19 - 11:07 AM
Backwoodsman 20 May 19 - 11:01 AM
Backwoodsman 20 May 19 - 10:58 AM
Jim Carroll 20 May 19 - 10:53 AM
Iains 20 May 19 - 10:23 AM
DMcG 20 May 19 - 10:16 AM
Jim Carroll 20 May 19 - 10:02 AM
Jim Carroll 20 May 19 - 10:02 AM
Iains 20 May 19 - 09:31 AM
DMcG 20 May 19 - 08:25 AM
Backwoodsman 20 May 19 - 07:39 AM
Iains 20 May 19 - 04:36 AM
Iains 20 May 19 - 04:24 AM
DMcG 20 May 19 - 03:04 AM
Iains 19 May 19 - 02:54 PM
Raggytash 19 May 19 - 02:50 PM
DMcG 19 May 19 - 02:37 PM
Raggytash 19 May 19 - 02:27 PM
Iains 19 May 19 - 02:13 PM
DMcG 19 May 19 - 01:31 PM
Backwoodsman 19 May 19 - 12:59 PM
DMcG 19 May 19 - 12:45 PM
Iains 19 May 19 - 12:17 PM
Backwoodsman 19 May 19 - 12:01 PM
Iains 19 May 19 - 11:08 AM
Backwoodsman 19 May 19 - 08:55 AM
Backwoodsman 19 May 19 - 08:49 AM
Jim Carroll 19 May 19 - 08:15 AM
David Carter (UK) 19 May 19 - 07:48 AM
Backwoodsman 19 May 19 - 07:08 AM
Backwoodsman 19 May 19 - 04:54 AM
Iains 19 May 19 - 04:30 AM
Jim Carroll 19 May 19 - 04:01 AM
DMcG 19 May 19 - 03:34 AM
Jim Carroll 19 May 19 - 03:32 AM
DMcG 19 May 19 - 03:30 AM
Iains 19 May 19 - 03:15 AM
Iains 19 May 19 - 02:41 AM
Jim Carroll 19 May 19 - 02:25 AM
Raggytash 18 May 19 - 06:52 PM
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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 21 May 19 - 05:11 AM

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome - PM
Date: 20 May 19 - 11:28 AM

Jim and John. Will you never learn? :-(

Strange that in among the multiple deletions that this one was missed!
Has moderation been usurped by a political commissar?


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 21 May 19 - 04:37 AM

Apropos my post above. It is significant that the £83K donation mentioned above translates to 100,000 euros using the exchange rate of the time. An unusual figure for a UK origin, but perfectly understandable for an EU origin.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 21 May 19 - 04:12 AM

From: DMcG - PM
Date: 20 May 19 - 02:25 PM

Well once again, Nigel you can only see typos and not information. Perhaps you would like to comment on whether you think the Telegraph's omission of those parties (unlike, say, the BBC's poll of polls) is a fair representation of the current voting intentions?


Such a shame the comment you responded to, which I believe contained nothing in the least offensive, has been deleted.
There seems to be a lot being deleted for no reason recently.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 21 May 19 - 03:49 AM

However, in responding to criticism of the Brexit Party’s donations policy by drawing attention to the donations policy of People’s Vote, you clearly were attempting to draw a parallel. I simply pointed out that the parallel to which you alluded doesn’t exist

Oh Yes it does!

Peoples vote website
we are registered with, and regulated by, the Electoral Commission during this period. This means that donations over £500 have to be verified as permissible, and those over £7,500 published by the Electoral Commission, as required by law. As is the Brexit Party
In an election period the rules become even more stringent.

As people's vote is a pressure group I wonder if the electoral commissioners will investigate them to see how much funding is of foreign(EU)origin?
After all they had a huge donation from a pharmaceutical company representing nearly 30% of it's annual profit. However the EU parent company is worth billions.

You cannot beat a level playing field!


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 20 May 19 - 02:25 PM

Well once again, Nigel you can only see typos and not information. Perhaps you would like to comment on whether you think the Telegraph's omission of those parties (unlike, say, the BBC's poll of polls) is a fair representation of the current voting intentions?


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 May 19 - 01:52 PM

"A REMINDER of WHO THE BREXIT PARTY ACTUALLY IS AND IT'S COLOURFUL HISTORY "
It is actually not a party - it is a one-policy and no constitution
It has no members - only paying supporters, so it cannot even claim to be a democratic organisation
It is, in fact, capitalising on the farcical situation created by a sulky group who, by playing on the prejudices of the British people.
An examination of its SISTER PARTY will show how The Brexit Party has its roots in the Extremist Right goroups that have sprung up in Europe - many of whom have died the death of all crank parties

As far as the European Election results are concerned, as the UK vote has never exceeded 40%, any result can hardly be claimed as a victory
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 20 May 19 - 01:33 PM

”Care to tell me where I said peoples vote is a political party?”

Nobody has said that you said ‘People’s Vote’ is a political party. However, in responding to criticism of the Brexit Party’s donations policy by drawing attention to the donations policy of People’s Vote, you clearly were attempting to draw a parallel. I simply pointed out that the parallel to which you alluded doesn’t exist.

It’s really not difficult. But apparently too difficult for you. No surprise there.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 20 May 19 - 01:08 PM

I presume Telegraph readers are not supposed to notice the SNP and Plaid Cwmru are omitted, or ask themselves why.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 20 May 19 - 12:13 PM

Reality versus ideology!

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2019/05/20/brexit-party-set-win-votes-pro-remain-parties-combined-polling/

A stunning graph showing the brexit party gains since the local coucil elections. If accurate the day the EU election results are announced will be a fine popcorn evening of celebration.

Even worse for remainiacs
"The Brexit Party has seen support soar in the aftermath of Theresa May agreeing to an extension of the Brexit deadline with the European Union, with a YouGov poll of 2,212 voters conducted between May 8-9 showing 34 percent of those surveyed would cast their vote in favour of the newborn party. Mr Portillo suggested Britons could again opt to take their vote away from historical parties during a General Election." Farage for PM?


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 May 19 - 11:28 AM

Jim and John. Will you never learn? :-(


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 20 May 19 - 11:07 AM

European elections
latest polls: Brexit
Party forecast to win most votes
The Telegraph
1 hour ago

Pro- and anti-Brexit
parties neck and
neck in EU
election, says poll
The Guardian
2 hours ago


Brexit Party set to
win more votes
than pro-Remain
parties combined, polling reveals
The Telegraph
10 hours ago

What a joke!


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 20 May 19 - 11:01 AM

Bloody HTML! Try again...

Like the Guardian, Alastair Campbell’s ‘People’s Vote’ is not a registered political party, and therefore is not subject to the rules that apply to registered political parties with regard to donations.

You really are beginning to look very silly indeed. Or very thick.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 20 May 19 - 10:58 AM

”It should be noted that Alastair Campbell’s People’s Vote welcomes offshore donations:”

Like the Guardian, Alastair Campbell’s ‘’People’s Vote’ is not a registered political party, and therefore is not subject to the rules that apply to registered political parties with regard to donations.

You really are beginning to look very silly indeed. Or very thick.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 May 19 - 10:53 AM

A REMINDER If one wee needed
AND ANOTHER
AND YET ANOTHER


"Trust me - I'm a Brexiteer" - I don't think so !!
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 20 May 19 - 10:23 AM

'Twould appear the establishment is getting rattled! They are behaving just as predicted. Their scurrilous behaviour is so obvious they are simply drumming up even more support for Farage. Hilarious!


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 20 May 19 - 10:16 AM

Electoral Commission to visit Brexit Party offices over funding concerns

A reminder: The rules are about parties standing for election.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 May 19 - 10:02 AM

"It should be noted that Alastair Campbell’s People’s Vote welcomes offshore donations:"
Oooo good - it means he can ask Dyson the Deserter and Lord Snooty for a donation
SPEAKING OF WHICH
Reckoned to be the worst book on British history ever - even worse than Churchill's 'Boys Own' account of the exploits of Empire
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 May 19 - 10:02 AM

"It should be noted that Alastair Campbell’s People’s Vote welcomes offshore donations:"
Oooo good - it means he can ask Dyson the Deserter and Lord Snooty for a donation
SPEAKING OF WHICH
Reckoned to be the worst book on British history ever - even worse than Churchill's 'Boys Own' account of the exploits of Empire
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 20 May 19 - 09:31 AM

From the Electoral Commissioners:
Under the Political Parties, Elections and Referendums Act 2000 (PPERA), there are controls on which donations a political party can accept. These controls apply to parties that are registered in Great Britain. Certain donations must be recorded and reported to us. We publish these reports in a register on our website.

Who receives donations? Donations are made to registered political parties and accounting units (sections of a party whose finances aren’t managed directly by a party’s headquarters). Parties must appoint someone to be registered with us as their treasurer. The registered treasurer is responsible for making sure that the party follows the rules on donations. This includes maintaining suitable systems within the party to ensure donations are dealt with correctly. What is a donation? A donation is money, goods or services given to a party without charge or on non-commercial terms, with a value of over £500. Some examples of donations include: •A gift of money or other property. •Sponsorship of an event or publication.   •Subscription or affiliation payments. •Free or specially discounted use of an office.
Under PPERA, anything with a value of £500 or less is not a donation.

It should be noted that Alastair Campbell’s People’s Vote welcomes offshore donations:


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 20 May 19 - 08:25 AM

Quite so, Backwoodsman. Paypal is important because in makes tracing sources of funding harder. There are legal constraints on that for political parties that do not apply to newspapers.

I'd appreciate views on the second point I made, though. If there was evidence of funding irregularities, would any Brexiteer care? I don't think they would. And if it was proven to the point the Brexit Party was prohibited from the EU elections, behind the bluster of protest Farage would love it, because it would give him a really strong card to play come the general election "Look how the elites treated you over the EU elections ..."


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 20 May 19 - 07:39 AM

When did The Guardian become a registered political party?


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 20 May 19 - 04:36 AM

That there is a concern that Brexit funding is not being declared is obvious - it seems you can pay up to £500 on their website and it does not need to be declared. And this can come via Paypal.

Your support is critical for the future of Guardian journalism.
Payment method

    Credit/Debit card

    PayPal

'nuff said!


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 20 May 19 - 04:24 AM

There are some very interesting things occurring just before the voting occurs in the EU elections.
1)A false story about Farage running away from a RTA.
2)Noises being made about an enquiry into TBP funding arrangements.
3) The as yet unregistered anti brexit "Led by Donkeys" campaign forced to take down a gay bashing poster, amid strong rumours they have breached their spending limits.
4)Labour is haemorrhaging remain voters to the Lib Dems because of ambiguity on Labour's brexit position.
5)Uncertainty as to how much of the LIBDEM vote in the local council elections was a protest vote. This could produce even more support for brexit.

I predict more attempted character assassination of Farage in the next couple of days in order to sabotage the brexit vote. This could backfire of course as brexiteers are both sophisticated and canny and can easily see through such subterfuge.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 20 May 19 - 03:04 AM

Calls for Brexit Party funding to be investigated

That there is a concern that funding is not being declared is obvious - it seems you can pay up to £500 on their website and it does not need to be declared. And this can come via Paypal.   If I wished to make a £50,000 donation, it looks as if I just need to make a lot of small donations of less than £500 a time. If the worst comes to the worst, I might need to set up a hundred separate Paypal accounts, which would be no problem these days. My own website has an email system where unrecognised email addresses are automatically redirected to a single one internally, so giving Paypal one hundred different emails would be easy for my, never mind a state or large interested party.

Of course, the Brexit Party supporters would say either 'fake news', or 'they would say that, wouldn't they?' or both. After all, it is fair to say a possibility of corruption is a long way it existing and then proving it.

But I think we are at a worse stage. If it were to be proved today that the Brexit Party was getting illegal funding - and I am not saying it is - I think its supporters would not care. Banning it from the elections for breaching the rules could cause rioting, I think. And come the general elections, a new Child of Brexit with entirely legitimate funding could sweep the board.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 19 May 19 - 02:54 PM

Rather than the antiques roadshow link above here is one from yesterday that is far more relevant.


https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/tories-face-wipe-out-nigel-16165569

and the latest voting intentions
conres European Elections Poll May 2019
Survey of GB adults on their voting intentions.

Brexit Party 31% (+4)

Labour 23% (-1)

Lib Dem 16% (+2)

Conservatives 9% (-4)

Green 9% (-)

Change UK 4% (-2)

SNP 4% (+1)

UKIP 2% (-1)

PC 1% (-)

Other 1% (-)

similar to yougov on trends, absolute values a little different.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 19 May 19 - 02:50 PM

Thanks DMcG, it doesn't alter the dilemma for our Brexiteers whom I suspect are ardent royalists to boot.

AND it doesn't stop me from taking the p*** out of them !!!!!


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 19 May 19 - 02:37 PM

here is the link

I don't it will bother many Brexiteers, though. It was a long time ago, and anyway since she would have to sign a withdrawal agreement, some have already said the Queen would be committing treason if she did so.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 19 May 19 - 02:27 PM

A bit of a dilemma for our Brexiteers it seems.

According to an article in the Guardian/Observer today it would seem that the Queen herself is in favour of the European Union.

So what are they to do, bow and scrape to royalty or brown-nose their political leaders.

Such hard decisions eh!!

Could someone please link to the article.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 19 May 19 - 02:13 PM

As the Brexit party was not represented in the local council elections the protest vote went to the LibDems. Poor old Vince thinks the same will happen in the EU election.

Now you can either believe the link below or be swayed by the gruniard
https://www.citynews1130.com/2019/05/12/uk-minister-warns-about-protest-votes-at-eu-elections/

and ideology as a poor substitute for common sense. Where wishful thinking overtakes reality

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/may/12/european-elections-your-guide-to-the-vote-you-never-expected

I hope TBP sweep the board,but polls are somewhat fickle outside the ballot box

In a week we will know for sure!


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 19 May 19 - 01:31 PM

Reporting back that the RemainUinted.org website did predict between 22 and 25 seats out of 70 for the Brexit Party, so the estimate *is* out there in the ether. However, as that is based on polling between 1-7 May, there may be a more up to date estimate.

For comparison, Farage and UKIP currently have 22, so getting 22 or below seats could not be claimed as a triumph. One or two more is stretching it to call it a triumph. Over 27 I will allow gloating without demur!


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 19 May 19 - 12:59 PM

“When insults and bluster replace rational argument I think game, set, match to me”

No bluster from me, simply facts, logic, and rational argument which others are able to understand, but which seem to be far, far beyond your intellect.

And as regards ‘insults’, coming from the most aggressive, abusive, insulting poster on this thread, or any other thread you decide to stink up with your presence (there’s evidence a-plenty on this forum), words like ‘pot’, ‘kettle’, and ‘black’ spring to mind. You’re fooling nobody but yourself.

Give your silly head a wobble.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 19 May 19 - 12:45 PM

I haven't seen an estimate that gives the Brexit Party one third of the seats. One third of the vote, perhaps, but not seats. Can you provide a link to such an estimate?


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 19 May 19 - 12:17 PM

When insults and bluster replace rational argument I think game, set, match to me(and all those righteous citizens that kicked both tory and labour councilors into touch in the recent elections)
Further proof will come from the EU elections where conservative estimates give the brexit party one third of the seats. We will see then who are the wobble headed, loonies and delusional.

Prepare for disappointment!


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 19 May 19 - 12:01 PM

And again, you indicate your complete ignorance of what Parliamentary Representative Democracy actually is. It is a clearly defined system - no amount of wishful-thinking on the part of Right-Wing Extremists like you, and delusional BrexShit-Bumpkins will make it anything other than what it is.

Give your dopey heads a wobble.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 19 May 19 - 11:08 AM

that an MP’s responsibility is not to obey their electorate’s wishes, it is to do what they - the MPs - believe is in the best interests of the country as a whole. That is Parliamentary Democracy.

Seems the electorate have a different take on the matter. When their elected representatives no longer represent them they are discarded.

That is why the local council elections gave both parties a hammering.
The electorate do not like being lied to.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 19 May 19 - 08:55 AM

I’ll try that again!

You’re absolutely correct, of course, David, and it’s a fact that’s been ignored or misunderstood - probably deliberately - that an MP’s responsibility is not to obey their electorate’s wishes, it is to do what they - the MPs - believe is in the best interests of the country as a whole. That is Parliamentary Democracy.

Sadly, that seems to be a concept far too difficult for The Brain-washed and The Brainless to understand.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 19 May 19 - 08:49 AM

”Democracy in our country is Parliamentary democracy. And out members of Parliament are obliged to act in their constituents' interests. Not in accordance with a flawed and corrupt referendum.”

You’re absolutely correct, of course, David, and it’s a fact that’s been not to obey their electorate’s wishes, it is to do what they - the MPs - believe is in the best interests of the country as a whole. That is Parliamentary Democracy.

Sadly, that seems to be a concept far too difficult for The Brain-washed and The Brainless to understand.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 May 19 - 08:15 AM

"No one would conclude the rise of Nazi Germany was a good outcome.
You - by claiming that the vote is the be all and end all, said exactly that
Just as the majority voted for Brexit the majority in Germany voted for nazism
It takes a special kind of stupidity to claim that is you vote for Brexit than that decision must be adhered to yet, if you vote Labour, you are "dangerous"
You missed out big time when they handed out joined-up thinking, didn't you

When have they ever done that - and not just "in the constituents interest", by the way - a nationally elected Government is committed to act in the est interests of the country as a whole
What suits the South Eastern "soft underbelly of Britain" may not be i the interests of the impoverished North, as is now evident
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 19 May 19 - 07:48 AM

Democracy in our country is Parliamentary democracy. And out members of Parliament are obliged to act in their constituents' interests. Not in accordance with a flawed and corrupt referendum.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 19 May 19 - 07:08 AM

Even the former Brexit-Secretary, David Davis, understands the most basic principle of democracy - that "When a democracy cannot change its mind, it ceases to be a democracy" (his speech in 2012).

What a shame that Brexit supporters in general seem totally unable to grasp even this most simple and basic principle of the democracy they claim to crave.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 19 May 19 - 04:54 AM

”Had the outcome of the referendum have been implemented your request for a second vote might have merit(given a suitable time period elapsing)
However the last vote from June 2016 has yet to be accepted and acted on, so calls for a further vote are an affront to democracy.”


Since the Referendum, it has become patently obvious to all except the most blinkered Right-Wing-Extremist anal-sphincter-lickers, that leaving the EU is far from being the ‘easy’ process that the ‘Leave’ Campaign Echo-Chamber trumpeted it would be, that myriad facts have come to light since the Referendum, and that there will be long-lasting damage caused by leaving - possibly as long as fifty years according to arch-Brexiteer Rees-Mogg.

Only the brain-washed or brain-less would regard the idea of giving the electorate a chance to vote in order to either confirm their original wish, or indicate that, in view of the huge amount of information that has become available since the Referendum, they wish now to change their minds, as being ‘un-democratic’.

They really do need to give their heads a wobble.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 19 May 19 - 04:30 AM

Anyone enfranchised can vote. Democracy requires that the outcome is respected.
Whether the outcome is positive or negative depends upon the respective person's viewpoint.
No one would conclude the rise of Nazi Germany was a good outcome.

Decisions made by Democratically elected governments are not always good ones.

The Iraqi war was based on mythical weapons of mass destruction, thanks to Blair. THe events surrounding the mysterious death of Dr Kelly tar the labour government of the time with a rather unsavoury brush.

A leaked report from the OPCW tells a very different story to the one given for public consumption concerning the gassing at Douma and justification for the subsequent bombing campaign in Syria.

The 2016 referendum result has still to be implemented because of deliberate stalling by the elected government in direct opposition to the mandate of the people.

It is obvious that democracy has flaws. As yet nothing better has been found as a substitute. Many posting here make it very clear they would blatantly ignore the vote if the outcome did not suit their expectations. A very scary precedent they are advocating! They show the same contempt for the electorate as Parliament. Hence the rise of Brexit.
The majority will prevail - Get used to it!


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 May 19 - 04:01 AM

"It is simply recognising that for all its benefits it has flaws"
The populism sch as that being spoute by this clown (manipulated democracy) is an example of just that
which is why extremists such as the present incumbent leap on it as a method to push though policies tht are obviously flawed
Come the time that Brexit fulfils its promise as the stupid move it obviously is, the establishment will have the perfect 'get out of jail free' card - nuffin' to do with us - it was the 'People's Choice'
Parliamentary 'Democracy' has never been democratic and has had its day - nobody takes politicians seriously
Now we are faced with the scummy rabble rousers and hate merchants
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 19 May 19 - 03:34 AM

Just in case anyone thinks otherwise, my saying "democracy is flawed" is not saying "scrap democracy." It is simply recognising that for all its benefits it has flaws.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 May 19 - 03:32 AM

There you have it Rag - the people's voice is only important when it coincides with his own - elect Farage and your say is important, elect a labour Government and you become "dangerous"
Now wasn't that worth the effort getting him to confess ?
He really isn't very good at this - people who feel the need to threaten and bully never are
Had my fun for the day, I think
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 19 May 19 - 03:30 AM

So when the German people elected Hitler or the Hungarians elect Orban, or if the French elect LePen, it doesn't matter what follows
I wonder why you omitted the US President TRUMP? Does he not count as he was allegedly put in place by pesky Russian collusion?

How many times has democracy elected a labour government? The ultimate example of Lords of misrule!


So which is nearer the 'ultimate' lord of misrule - Hitler or a Labour government? Are you really saying, 'on balance, Labour'? I think you could be accused of anti-Semitism if you do.

Democracy is flawed, particularly with a FPTP voting system. One of its flaws is that sometimes power is given to very dangerous people, like those Jim mentioned. Voting for a party with no declared policies increases that risk. Ok, let's imagine the Brexit Party were to be elected with Farage as PM. On day one, he writes to the EU: "That's it, we leave with immediate effect". Done what he was elected to do. His supporters are presumably happy.

Now what does he do from day 2 for the rest of another 5 years? No one has been told yet. And, importantly, his supporters are not even willing to think about it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 19 May 19 - 03:15 AM

So when the German people elected Hitler or the Hungarians elect Orban, or if the French elect LePen, it doesn't matter what follows
I wonder why you omitted the US President TRUMP? Does he not count as he was allegedly put in place by pesky Russian collusion?

How many times has democracy elected a labour government? The ultimate example of Lords of misrule!

I assume from your post you do not believe in the democratic vote, because people might vote the wrong way.

Thank God you are exiled in a place where you can do no damage!People like you are dangerous.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 19 May 19 - 02:41 AM

It does not seem unreasonable given the above that we should have another vote as to whether we should leave the EU.

Had the outcome of the referendum have been implemented your request for a second vote might have merit(given a suitable time period elapsing)
However the last vote from June 2016 has yet to be accepted and acted on, so calls for a further vote are an affront to democracy.

The government intransigence has required last minute canvassing for the upcoming EU elections. This was an event that the UK should not have been a participant in, but will give a very clear indicative vote of where people stand on brexit.

Latest polling suggests the Brexit party is still gathering support.
This support is not just from brexiteers but a large contingent of people see the Brexit party as the only one that supports democratic principles. For these fine people principle is far more important than ideology and democracy must be supported.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 May 19 - 02:25 AM

"The only significant thing to be concerned about is the outcome from the ballot box where people can exert their democratic vote."
So when the German people elected Hitler or the Hungarians elect Orban, or if the French elect LePen, it doesn't matter what follows
What an ugly outlook on life
Why don't you surprise me ?
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 18 May 19 - 06:52 PM

As a maximum every 5 years we, the public of the UK, have the right to vote to change our leadership, which does change should the vote go that way.

On occasions that 5 years is curtailed to 1, 2 3 or 4 years depending on the issues at play.

It does not seem unreasonable given the above that we should have another vote as to whether we should leave the EU.

Much has happened in the past three years and some of us are much more aware of the various issues that may arise from our decision today. Issues that, for the most part, many of us were ignorant of before.


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