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BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?

Iains 30 Jan 19 - 12:44 PM
Dave the Gnome 31 Jan 19 - 04:12 AM
Dave the Gnome 31 Jan 19 - 05:45 AM
peteaberdeen 31 Jan 19 - 10:36 AM
Iains 31 Jan 19 - 12:34 PM
Iains 31 Jan 19 - 12:48 PM
DMcG 31 Jan 19 - 01:14 PM
Dave the Gnome 31 Jan 19 - 02:45 PM
Iains 31 Jan 19 - 03:08 PM
Dave the Gnome 31 Jan 19 - 03:33 PM
Backwoodsman 31 Jan 19 - 03:37 PM
Steve Shaw 31 Jan 19 - 04:02 PM
Dave the Gnome 31 Jan 19 - 04:03 PM
Iains 31 Jan 19 - 04:27 PM
Steve Shaw 31 Jan 19 - 05:17 PM
Backwoodsman 31 Jan 19 - 05:41 PM
Steve Shaw 31 Jan 19 - 05:46 PM
Backwoodsman 01 Feb 19 - 02:01 AM
Iains 01 Feb 19 - 03:50 AM
DMcG 01 Feb 19 - 04:07 AM
Iains 01 Feb 19 - 04:16 AM
DMcG 01 Feb 19 - 04:26 AM
Backwoodsman 01 Feb 19 - 04:42 AM
Iains 01 Feb 19 - 04:44 AM
DMcG 01 Feb 19 - 06:30 AM
Jim Carroll 01 Feb 19 - 06:43 AM
DMcG 01 Feb 19 - 06:59 AM
Iains 01 Feb 19 - 07:36 AM
DMcG 01 Feb 19 - 07:40 AM
Jim Carroll 01 Feb 19 - 07:41 AM
Iains 01 Feb 19 - 07:56 AM
Dave the Gnome 01 Feb 19 - 08:02 AM
DMcG 01 Feb 19 - 08:09 AM
Steve Shaw 01 Feb 19 - 08:14 AM
Backwoodsman 01 Feb 19 - 08:30 AM
Dave the Gnome 01 Feb 19 - 08:39 AM
DMcG 01 Feb 19 - 08:45 AM
Iains 01 Feb 19 - 08:46 AM
Dave the Gnome 01 Feb 19 - 08:57 AM
Iains 01 Feb 19 - 09:20 AM
DMcG 01 Feb 19 - 09:30 AM
Dave the Gnome 01 Feb 19 - 09:48 AM
Nigel Parsons 01 Feb 19 - 09:55 AM
Dave the Gnome 01 Feb 19 - 10:34 AM
Jim Carroll 01 Feb 19 - 10:53 AM
DMcG 01 Feb 19 - 11:40 AM
Iains 01 Feb 19 - 11:43 AM
Iains 01 Feb 19 - 11:47 AM
Jim Carroll 01 Feb 19 - 01:22 PM
Nigel Parsons 01 Feb 19 - 01:58 PM
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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 30 Jan 19 - 12:44 PM

Brexit is usually portrayed as an exclusively right- wing project
It may be portrayed that way, especially on this forum, but unfortunately the facts do not support it. That is why the left resort to constant swearing and insults in a futile endeavour to hide these self evident truths

"While referendum boundaries and parliamentary boundaries differ the closest estimates shows the following.
These estimates show that while the national result of the referendum was relatively close, with 52% voting Leave and 48% voting Remain, a much larger majority of parliamentary seats voted to Leave – with 64% of seats in Great Britain voting Leave. (This is likely due to the uneven distribution of Remain voters, who tended to cluster in large cities, while Leave voters were more evenly spread.)

According to these estimates, around 75% of constituencies that were won by the Conservatives in the 2017 general election voted to Leave, while around 61% of Labour constituencies voted to Leave. All seats won by the Scottish National Party and the Green Party, and a majority of the seats won by the Liberal Democrats and Plaid Cymru, voted to Remain.

When you factor in the uncertainty, the figures for how each party’s seats voted changes a bit. By this count, 62% of Conservative seats voted Leave, with 21% uncertain and 17% Remain. Labour’s seats, meanwhile, voted 56% Leave, 8% uncertain, and 36% Remain."


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 31 Jan 19 - 04:12 AM

More "good news" :-(

Fresh Fruit And Veg Will Rot At The Border


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 31 Jan 19 - 05:45 AM

A good summary...

Phil Dunn
10 January 2018 · Bournemouth

UK: We want a unicorn
EU: We don't do unicorns. None of us have unicorns, There are no unicorns.

UK: But we promised unicorns and the people have spoken. We want unicorns
EU: That's not really our problem. There are no unicorns

UK: You're being unreasonable. We demand unicorns
EU: There are no unicorns

UK: You are bullying us with your outrageous demands!
EU: Eh? We just said there are no unicorns because... well... there are no unicorns.

UK: OK! We get your game. You're stalling! We're prepared to walk away without a unicorn you know! (Thinks: that'll show'em)
EU: There are no unicorns.

UK: You bastards! Nigel was right. You're out to destroy us. We'll go and speak to Donald instead. HE has unicorns!
EU: Errrrrmmm, there ARE no unicorns.

UK: That does it. This is our final position. We want unicorns...right now... gold plated... fluent in greek....ermmm.... or we're off!
EU: Are you still here? There are no unicorns.

UK: DAMMIT! What about a packet of crisps then?
EU: Sorry we're busy.

#StopBrexit #ExitBrexit #NoUnicorns


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: peteaberdeen
Date: 31 Jan 19 - 10:36 AM

brexit is the conclusion of 40 years of tory infighting yet we are all dragged into it. it is the failing of all our politicians to stand up to the racists and old empire neanderthals of the far-right reaches of the tories, ukip and the knuckle -draggers beyond.
it is their failing and ours too - who have never got it together to rid ourselves of the tories and their deadening, depressing mind set. seems there will always be a large minority who will worship/vote for the toffs who love to despise and ignore us. flag-waving dimwits who have no faith in themselves or their fellow citizens to run our countries without the divine touch of our betters.

this is all getting me down - really, who could have imagined the situation where the likes of farage and rees - mogg could be taken seriously? what has become of my country? what happens next? i'm sure for many people this is an intriguing political drama - but for those of us who have to face aggressive far-right leavers every day in the pub, round town and at work 'traitor!' 'you'll end up in hospital talking like that' - where racist, anti-muslimism is the default position of staff in my organisation, sadly it is a daily problem.

we have talked about moving back to scotland where the air is more breathable or maybe further afield - just now i see very little hope for little england . we have been let down by the politicians but there seems no sign of a fightback from the overwhelming majority of decent people who are being led down the river by this incompetent, self-serving government and the people who are happy to lie for them. it doesn't matter how many thousands of people will stroll down to trafalgar square occasionally - we seem to have accepted our fate and will take whatever chaos our leaders arrange for us.

- for fucksake!


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 31 Jan 19 - 12:34 PM

From: Dave the Gnome - PM
Date: 31 Jan 19 - 04:12 AM
"No-Deal Brexit: Fresh Fruit And Veg Will Rot At The Border, Supplier Warns
Industry faces "disaster" as only root vegetables may be on sale, and cost of ready meals could surge."


I do like the way the leftards pick up on every piece of negative news about Brexit confident that everything they read is accurate. It demonstrates very clearly that they do not even do five minutes research on the subject.
Fact: Fresh fruit 70% sourced from outside the EU.
       Vegetables 30% sourced from outside the EU

We also supply the bulk of Irelands fruit and vegetables and export vegetables to the EU. If EU food to the UK rots on the quayside it will no doubt join fleets of rusting german cars denied their export market. Eating out of season produce is a modern development.Locally sourced produce is probably a healthier option, and far fresher.

It simply ain't going to happen, the resulting glut in europe will bankrupt the producers.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 31 Jan 19 - 12:48 PM

we have been let down by the politicians but there seems no sign of a fightback from the overwhelming majority of decent people who are being led down the river by this incompetent, self-serving government and the people who are happy to lie for them. it doesn't matter how many thousands of people will stroll down to trafalgar square occasionally

The statistics totally destroy your argument. Read my post: Date: 30 Jan 19 - 12:44 PM

Terrible things facts!


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 31 Jan 19 - 01:14 PM

Talking of being depressed, it is depressing that so many government speakers are now saying we have now told the EU what we want, as they have asked.

No you haven't. You have told them what you don't want (yet again.) Even if the backstop were reopened, and an 'alternative approach' to the backstop agreed, there is no certainty at all that a significant section of the Brexiteers do not simply say "We don't like that either." The Brady amendment says they will support May's deal if she gets a change but Rees-Mogg and others made sure it was noted in the debate they won't have to. Thus neatly demolishing the entire declared purpose of the amendment.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 31 Jan 19 - 02:45 PM

Well said, Pete. It worries me too but I am hopeful that the backlash is begining. We see the types you mention everywhere (just look on here!) But more and more people seem to be standing up to the nonsense spouted. If enough of us take action we may finally see the back of the shower of self serving shits trying to govern us!


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 31 Jan 19 - 03:08 PM

"If enough of us take action we may finally see the back of the shower of self serving shits trying to govern us!"

Those ruling you have a mandate from a referendum, backed by a Parliamentary majority. The only nonsense spouted is your own and "taking action" sounds like revolution to me. But I am sure the counter-terrorism directorate keeps tabs on wannabe revolutionaries such as yourself and would nip any threatened action in the bud. This allows we law abiding citizens to sleep safe in our beds at night.

It is of course a public duty to report individuals threatening insurrection. After all it is but another form of terrorism!


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 31 Jan 19 - 03:33 PM

Hey, just realised! Is Steve snowed in? Who can arrange an airdrop of Tuscan bean casserole and Nero D'Avolo to Cornwall? :-)


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 31 Jan 19 - 03:37 PM

I reckon he'll have plenty stockpiled, Dave, ready for when Jake Rich-Mong and his cronies get their way and we crash out on 29/3/19, and the shortages begin! :-)


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 31 Jan 19 - 04:02 PM

Actually, I am snowed in, and the bugger wasn't forecast - it was supposed to bloody rain!!! Don't worry, I have all my post-no-deal stockpiles to hand, though I forgot to buy a ton of air freshener to go with all these tins of baked beans...

That was a fantastic post, Pete. One of the great lies is that the referendum gave the government a mandate. It did not. There was nothing constitutionally mandating about that result, only the spouting of a brainless pig-molester. Like all referendums in this country it was advisory. And Theresa May only managed to obtain anything even remotely resembling a "mandate" by buying off a tawdry bunch of sectarian terrorist apologists.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 31 Jan 19 - 04:03 PM

Lord Snooty and his pals? It would be like a comic strip it it wasn't so tragic!


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 31 Jan 19 - 04:27 PM

One of the great lies is that the referendum gave the government a mandate

Mandate:1)    an official order or commission to do something.
       2)    the authority to carry out a policy, regarded as given
             by the electorate to a party or candidate that wins an
             election.

David Cameron has said the British people must "have their say" on Europe as he pledged an in/out referendum if the Conservatives win the election.

The prime minister said he wanted to renegotiate the UK's relationship with the EU and then give people the "simple choice" between staying in under those new terms, or leaving the EU.
"It is time for the British people to have their say," he said. "It is time to settle this European question in British politics. I say to the British people: this will be your decision."

If it looks like a duck, swims like a duck, and quacks like a duck, then it probably is a duck.
I rest my case!


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 31 Jan 19 - 05:17 PM

I'll say this once and for all, not to any specific individual on this forum but to everyone listening. You can check it out until you are blue in the face for all I care, but this is the truth: ready?

Ahem.

The referendum was advisory. It has no constitutional force to create a mandate, no matter what any fly-by-night politician said or whatever any desperado in this forum tells you. That is the fact of tbe matter, the law of the land, and no amount of spin can change that. OK, maybe it doesn't make any bloody difference. But be assured that anyone saying that they are obeying the will of the people with no alternative, or pretending that the referendum gave them a mandate, is lying in their teeth. All constitutionally checkable and not up for alternative opinions. Cheers.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 31 Jan 19 - 05:41 PM

All perfectly verifiable by checking the Research Paper to the Referendum Bill. The relevant section 4.1 states:-

"4.1 Types of referendum
This Private Member’s Bill requires a referendum to be held on the question of the UK’s continued membership of the European Union (EU) before the end of 2017. It does not contain any requirement on the UK Government to implement the results of the referendum, nor set a time limit by which a vote to leave the EU should be implemented. Instead, this is a type of referendum known as pre-legislative or consultative, which enables the electorate to voice an opinion which then influences the Government in its policy decisions. The referendums held in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland in 1997 and 1998 are examples of this type, where opinion was tested before legislation is introduced. The UK does not have a written codified constitution which would require the results of a referendum to be implemented, unlike for example the Republic of Ireland, where the circumstances in which a binding referendum are held is set out in its constitution."


I've emboldened the appropriate sentences.

The whole Research Paper to the Bill can be found here


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 31 Jan 19 - 05:46 PM

Thanks, John. You can't beat the actual facts of the matter, can you?


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 01 Feb 19 - 02:01 AM

"Terrible things, facts!" Steve. ;-)


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 01 Feb 19 - 03:50 AM

Ahem.

The referendum was advisory.

and

"MPs have voted overwhelmingly in favour of Theresa May triggering Article 50, meaning the Prime Minister is on track to begin Brexit negotiations with Brussels in March.

By 498 to 114 - a majority of 384 - MPs backed allowing the bill to progress to the next, more detailed legislative stage.

Ten Labour junior shadow ministers and three whips, who are supposed to enforce party discipline, voted against triggering Article 50 in revolt against Mr Corbyn."

To quote your own words:"what most of them(MPs) actually do (give in to realpolitik) is wholly consistent. ..... why both parties "supported brexit" after the referendum. Any party opposing the outcome of the vote would be toast."

To quote myself(again)From: Iains - PM
Date: 14 Jan 19 - 06:20 AM

There is a certain inconsistency in your arguments:
You say they(mps) work for the best interests of the country ...chunder, chunder, chunder....
But!
you also say:"Well the one and only reason that the Tory referendum, then Article 50, were ratified is that the steamroller was already in full flow and that any party which voted against either would have been toast. We call it realpolitik."

seems to me you want to have your toast and eat it, and furthermore accept when it comes to survival Labour MPs would sell their aunts!

For a man that argues the sins of nitpicking you obviously hope your dual standards will not be commented on.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 01 Feb 19 - 04:07 AM

While there is some value in understanding how we got into this mess, especially if there is another referendum, that is far less important than where we go from here.

There seems to be a widespread belief that we are far from adequately prepared for a no deal. Since both sides seem to be assuming the other will give up in the end, a no deal is looking quite likely. There seems to be a chance that May will ask for an extension that is too short to achieve anything in the way of preventing a no deal, or not ask at all. If the time is too short the only agreement in place says only one extension is allowed. However, that does seem to be to be something that could change. An email from my MP shows he is thinks he can decide what is in the best interests of the EU, even though it of obviously the EU that decides what it thinks that is, and disagree with him.

Predicting what will happen next assumes people are acting coherently. So at the moment such predictions are impossible, I fear.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 01 Feb 19 - 04:16 AM

"An email from my MP shows he is thinks he can decide what is in the best interests of the EU."

It will be an education to see how he is rewarded,come the next election!


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 01 Feb 19 - 04:26 AM

Let me elaborate, as assuming UK MPs know what the EU regards as in its best interests is a common failure. They say that the trade loss, or the loss of the 36billion or whatever means the EU will give on on the end. But it is the EU that will decide. The 36billion is a one off payment. Damage to the single market that May arise is a recurring cost. It is perfectly rationale for the EU to decide the 36billion is not worth what they - not the uk - judge the recurring costs to be.

And this is only talking trade. There are other factors that the EU regard as important and the UK cannot decide they are unimportant.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 01 Feb 19 - 04:42 AM

This fairly well sums up the current situation! (See what I did there?) :-)


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 01 Feb 19 - 04:44 AM

What voters in the UK voted overwhelmingly against was the creation of a federal europe, and destruction of the nation state. Two world wars were fought over attempted destruction of the nation state by German domination.
Federalism and the eradication nationhood is a well documented aim of the EU,publicly stated by both Merkel and Macron. If avoiding such a fate has a cost=so be it!


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 01 Feb 19 - 06:30 AM

It is striking how Brexiteers have moved from 'it's all sunny uplands'to 'we - ie you whether you voted for, or against, or didn't vote - will bear any short term (undefined)
costs (unquantified) because I think we are replaying the second world war'


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Feb 19 - 06:43 AM

Not breaking my oath not to involve with this poster but I think it worth noting that far from "overwhelmingly" this ludicrous decision was taken on a narrow majority which represented a minority of the British people as a whole - 'bout time this shit about 'the wishes of the British people' was put to bed once and for all
If what they wanted came into this at all they would be asked to reconfirm their choice now we have a government that cannot agree with its own party and has to bribe a sectarian party to get anything through Parliament, a people divided, a UK on the brink of fragmentation and major British firms doing a runner to continue filling their coffers by manufacturing their "widgets" elsewhere, including the Europe they supported leaving.
Let's see how many voters support Brexcrement now the implications have become clear - no chance with these 'democrats' at the helm
It is utter bollocks to claim that the voters who did support the decision to leave voted for or against against any of this.... none of these flights of fancy have ever been claimed to feature in their decision
Getting rid of Johnny Foreigner to "protect our jobs" is the most likely contender for the cause of the decision - everything else is merely an expression of the opinions of those who put it forward
There, that's my clearing the phlegm from my throat done for the day
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 01 Feb 19 - 06:59 AM

Quite so, Jim. Everyone, leaver or remainer, is entitled to say why they voted as they did. They are not entitled to assume that everyone - or indeed anyone - who voted the same way agrees with those reasons. For example, it seems likely to me that a big section of every election or referendum votes to "give those in power a good kicking" and nothing more, but I not assert it because I don't have the evidence.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 01 Feb 19 - 07:36 AM

it seems likely to me that a big section of every election or referendum votes to "give those in power a good kicking" and nothing more, but I not assert it because I don't have the evidence.

Well I do, and you are wrong!

"The most frequently cited reasons for voting Leave were Sovereignty/EU bureaucracy’ and ‘Immigration’ (both mentioned by around 30% of those who said they intended to vote Leave). By far the most frequently cited
reason for voting Remain was ‘Economy’ (mentioned by nearly 40% of those who said they intended to vote
Remain)."

CSI’s data
Interestingly,
‘to teach British politicians a lesson’ has by far the lowest average rank, being ranked last by a full 88% of
Leave voters.
This contradicts the widespread claim that Brexit was a ‘protest vote’: i.e., that people voted
Leave as a way of venting deep-seated grievances about things such as inequality, austerity and social
liberalism, rather than because they opposed Britain’s membership of the EU per se.

"Getting rid of Johnny Foreigner to "protect our jobs" is the most likely contender for the cause of the decision - everything else is merely an expression of the opinions of those who put it forward

Nonsense!!!!
The most important reasons for voting Leave was: ‘The principle that decisions about the UK should be taken in the UK’, which was ranked first by 49% of Leave voters.

A crying shame that the more rabid remainiacs here have nothing but false arguments and bile to refute well researched facts. Hardly surprising many threads get closed.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 01 Feb 19 - 07:40 AM

And now the Gibraltar problem raises its head again. All sorted in the Withdrawal Agreement, but if it is reopened, it is reopened for everybody.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Feb 19 - 07:41 AM

While we're at it I think a point our Guido Brexiteer made some time ago is worth a close examination
"Production goes to the least cost base. Making uncompetitive widgets just creates unemployment and bankruptcies."
This is of course perfectly true and the implications are that given the aim of standing on our own two feet, the only way Britain industry can survive in the present circumstances is by forcing wages down below the level of its competitors - textiles lap-tops, mobile phones and other electronic goods all have hit the headlines, but I'm sure there are many more   
SLAVE CONDITIONS
If our Guido Gatherer is right, these are the conditions that will need to be imposed on British workers - and as Maggie silenced what little voice workers had in their lives, they'll have to learn to bend down and take it
In the case of the industries we no longer have, Britain will have to buy wherever it is cheapest - I believe the DEMOCRATIC REPUBLIC of the CONGO might be a good source for our coal, but it might cost us a bit to keep the refugees from there out - as promised !
There - we've heard it from the horses's mouth
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 01 Feb 19 - 07:56 AM

I think the laddie above is confusing sovereignty with globalism.
globalism(Noun) An ideology based on the belief that people, goods and information ought to be able to cross national borders unfettered.

    A socio-economic system dedicated to free trade and free access to markets.
It has upsides and downsides.
There is no question that globalization has been a good thing for many developing countries who now have access to our markets and can export cheap goods. Globalization has also been good for Multi-national corporations and Wall Street. But globalization has not been good for working people (blue or white collar) and has led to the continuing deindustrialization of the west.

Labor can move from country to country to market their skills. True, but this can cause problems with the existing labor and downward pressure on wages.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 01 Feb 19 - 08:02 AM

Arron Banks and Leave.EU fined £120,000 by ICO

When will people get that the leave campaign won by lying and cheating? If the remain camp would have resorted to illegal use of personal data the result would have been different. Of course our resident apologists for conmen, spivs and cheats will find 'good' excuses...


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 01 Feb 19 - 08:09 AM

Well, if I am wrong, I am wrong. But if you read what I said, I did not claim that "giving a kicking" was the major or even a highly significant one: I said it was likely to be a big section. 12% seems a fairly big section to me. Of course, I am also not claiming those 12% put it in first place either.

But there is another complication common to all polls. What people say they do and what they actually do often differs. Polls often under represent the Conservative vote in Labour strongholds, because people there there don't like to admit they are Tory. You get the same effect in reverse in Tory areas. In a survey like that people tend to give an acceptable answer rather than the real answer. So the poll gives some information, but like all polls it is mistake to read too much certainty into it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 Feb 19 - 08:14 AM

Anyone who thought they were voting leave because of "EU bureaucracy/sovereignty" was completely ignorant both of how the EU operates and of how little "sovereignty" we gave up. We have a big say in what laws and regulations are passed or rejected and we have the veto. The vast bulk of EU law is agreed by common consensus without the need to vote (though the vote is always available if required). If we wish to trade with the EU post-brexit we will still have to abide by a large number of regulations, most of which we have no need to argue against but all of which we will have no say in. On top of that, just wait to see the bureaucracy and the sacrifice of sovereignty when we are obliged to do deals with China and the US.

Anyone who thought they were voting leave because of immigration is a racist.

But the bottom line is that everyone was asked nothing more than to put a cross against one of two simplistic choices. Not a word, not a reason, not an opinion. A cross.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 01 Feb 19 - 08:30 AM

I console myself with the sure and certain knowledge that the fools who allowed themselves to be conned by the deceit of the Leave campaign will be just as hurt by BrexShit as those of us who had the presence of mind to see it for what it was, and who took the sensible decision to vote Remain.

And, when the Leave-voters start bellyaching when the pain begins, it will give me great pleasure, not to mention a bloody good laugh, to say, "Don't blame me, you voted for it, now enjoy taking it up the arse - you've got what you asked for".


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 01 Feb 19 - 08:39 AM

They will just blame remainers, the EU and, of course, Jeremy Corbyn, BWM. Everyone's fault but their own.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 01 Feb 19 - 08:45 AM

If you look at the BBC "Have Your Say" and equivalents, you will see plenty doing that already, Dave.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 01 Feb 19 - 08:46 AM

Anyone who thought they were voting leave because of immigration is a racist.

Is that fact? whimsy , opinion or pure boll**ks?

You do say the most ridiculous things.

I notice blaming the russians has totally lost credibility for causing the leave vote majority.


When will people get that the leave campaign won by lying and cheating? If the remain camp would have resorted to illegal use of personal data the result would have been different. Of course our resident apologists for conmen, spivs and cheats will find 'good' excuses...

I dol ike a well reasoned argument. Yours, like those of many remainiacs, starts with "Once upon a time!"
Once again the facts do not support your argument! Worth remembering that this(data leak) was non-political advertising after the referendum – meanwhile the Lib Dems are still under investigation for selling data to the Remain campaign during the referendum…

and we had best not talk about Livingstone, or Jeremy Corbyn in 2012 saying that “yes of course” Israel may engage in “creating a false flag event” to start a war with Iran, or Corbynites succeeded in seizing control of Chuka’s local Labour Party in Streatham last night, or Fiona Onasanya. To name but a few!


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 01 Feb 19 - 08:57 AM

Very good points by Gary Younge in the Guardian

Many working-class leavers were not motivated by self-interest, but by values

Clip from the article

The UK making its own rules came a close second out of four (immigration was first) in the reasons why people voted leave.

It is a shame the the two top values they were voting for (Immigration and Sovereignty) will not be affected in the slightest by leaving the EU. But then again, I suppose nobody told them that. Oh, hang on, no one told me either. I wonder how I knew?


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 01 Feb 19 - 09:20 AM

I think analysis of data from the Centre for Social Investigation has more credibility than a gruniard hack.

It is a shame the the two top values they were voting for (Immigration and Sovereignty) will not be affected in the slightest by leaving the EU.
Is there some part of leave you have a problem with understanding?


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 01 Feb 19 - 09:30 AM

I have looked a little more into that survey and it has some severe technical flaws, of which the most serious is they suggested the reasons for leaving. But it is perfectly possible the reason for voting Leave was not any of their choices. I have said before that the thing that tool me closest to voting Leave was how Greece was dealt with. There was a problem, certainly, but there were other ways of sorting out the issue.

Similarly, the thing which would make me most inclined to vote Leave at the moment is the rise of the alt-right across Europe, and its potential effect if enough MEPs were elected. But even that would be a complicated balance, because I would have to make judgements on how the separation of powers within the EU constrains that, for example, compared to an unconstrained UK government. I would still vote remain, I believe, but it would be a complicated process. And not something the "choice of four reasons" from the survey would encompass.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 01 Feb 19 - 09:48 AM

Even so, DMcG, of the 4 choices presented the top two were Immigration and Sovereignty. We had control of both with the EU. The lie that the EU controlled both our laws and our borders was well established.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 01 Feb 19 - 09:55 AM

Even so, DMcG, of the 4 choices presented the top two were Immigration and Sovereignty. We had control of both with the EU.
No, we didn't/don't have control of immigration as the EU insists on "freedom of movement". Once we leave (if it ever happens) we will be able to put restrictions on those who enter the UK from the EU.
Otherwise why are some of the Leavers here complaining that leaving will restrict the ability of them (or their families) to move to, and work in the EU?

Some consistency in the discussion would help.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 01 Feb 19 - 10:34 AM

No, we didn't/don't have control of immigration as the EU insists on "freedom of movement"

Yes we do.

Firstly, non EU immigration has always been higher than EU immigration. That will not alter one iota.

Secondly, the rights of the UK to control it's borders are not undermined by the freedom of movement for EU citizens. I suggest you read the following to get the facts right.

Can the UK Control Its Borders if It Remains in the EU?

The complaint about restricting the rights to work and live in the EU by UK citizens is still valid as leaving the EU will make it more difficult. Not impossible, just difficult.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Feb 19 - 10:53 AM

"Yes we do. "
'Course we do - there has never been such a thing as 'uncontrolled immigration' - that its another of the Faragist lies
THIS IS HOW THE STATE CONTROLS IMMIGRATION
Nigel is as bad as the worst when it comes to refusing to comment on Britain's part in creating refugees and the inhumanity of refusing entry to migrants while at the same time having an arms and trading policy that has created the crisis
Still no comment Nigel - thought not!
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 01 Feb 19 - 11:40 AM

I can't help looking at these things through maths and formal logic.

Immigration is made up of two parts A and B. The declared government goal was that A+B must be less than C. Whether you can control A or not does not prevent the goal being reached providing (i) you can control B to any level you desire and (ii) A is less than C.

So if the immigration from the EU could not be restricted (which it could, but let's overlook that detail), it does not prevent the UK controlling its immigration to (almost) any level if it so wishes.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 01 Feb 19 - 11:43 AM

From the gruniard link above:
Theresa May, then home secretary, proudly stated in 2013 that her aim was to make the country a “hostile environment” for illegal immigrants. Since then the government has introduced ever more aggressive and intrusive checks.
Seems a spiffing idea to me, otherwise every Tom Dick and terrorist wouldbe invading our shores.Of course we never fell for that Schengen zone dreamed up by the globalists, that has spent the last couple of years unravelling.
In Jimmie's quaint world we would be demanding reparations off Hengist and Horsa, and William the conqueror, to name but a fanciful few.
We have a very thorough system for sifting those entitled to enter and those that are not. If the rest of the EU took the same care we would not have illegal immigrants crossing the channel in cockleshell boats.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 01 Feb 19 - 11:47 AM

"The Financial Times has truly outdone itself with this unintentionally hilarious article from Economics Editor Chris Giles complaining that the British economy has actually been doing too well since the referendum. Which is an interesting position for supposedly the world’s leading financial newspaper to take…

Not content with just being mystified by the fact that people failed to do as they were told in the referendum, the FT is now bemused as to why the markets haven’t done as the FT wants either. Giles bemoans the fact that “relatively benign economics has emboldened politicians to harden their Brexit demands and refuse to compromise” and declares that “it is now too late for markets or the UK economy to exercise much discipline on Britain’s politics before the scheduled exit date of March 29”. Translation: it’s too late for a financial or economic crash to scare people into doing what the FT says they they should do…"

Don't you just luv it!


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Feb 19 - 01:22 PM

Doncha just know you have 'em by the short and curlies when they starts talking down to you again
As predictable as Brexit being a fuck up - every time
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 01 Feb 19 - 01:58 PM

From: Jim Carroll - PM
Date: 01 Feb 19 - 10:53 AM
"Yes we do. "
'Course we do - there has never been such a thing as 'uncontrolled immigration' - that its another of the Faragist lies
THIS IS HOW THE STATE CONTROLS IMMIGRATION
Nigel is as bad as the worst when it comes to refusing to comment on Britain's part in creating refugees and the inhumanity of refusing entry to migrants while at the same time having an arms and trading policy that has created the crisis
Still no comment Nigel - thought not!

Jim Carroll


That must be a record. ask a question (almost) and complain, in the same thread, that there has been no response. I have not 'refused to comment'.

Jim,
Would you care to make clear what you are asking me? I will try to respond.


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