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BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?

DMcG 02 Apr 19 - 05:44 AM
Iains 02 Apr 19 - 05:35 AM
Steve Shaw 02 Apr 19 - 05:22 AM
Iains 02 Apr 19 - 05:12 AM
Dave the Gnome 02 Apr 19 - 05:03 AM
Jim Carroll 02 Apr 19 - 04:42 AM
Dave the Gnome 02 Apr 19 - 04:22 AM
Jim Carroll 02 Apr 19 - 04:12 AM
Backwoodsman 02 Apr 19 - 04:10 AM
Backwoodsman 02 Apr 19 - 04:02 AM
Iains 02 Apr 19 - 03:50 AM
Dave the Gnome 02 Apr 19 - 03:44 AM
DMcG 02 Apr 19 - 03:22 AM
Backwoodsman 02 Apr 19 - 03:03 AM
DMcG 02 Apr 19 - 03:02 AM
DMcG 02 Apr 19 - 02:51 AM
Jim Carroll 02 Apr 19 - 02:44 AM
Steve Shaw 01 Apr 19 - 07:44 PM
Iains 01 Apr 19 - 05:01 PM
Backwoodsman 01 Apr 19 - 04:40 PM
Backwoodsman 01 Apr 19 - 04:35 PM
Backwoodsman 01 Apr 19 - 04:32 PM
Nigel Parsons 01 Apr 19 - 04:27 PM
DMcG 01 Apr 19 - 03:26 PM
Backwoodsman 01 Apr 19 - 03:14 PM
Backwoodsman 01 Apr 19 - 03:11 PM
Bonnie Shaljean 01 Apr 19 - 03:05 PM
Bonnie Shaljean 01 Apr 19 - 02:54 PM
Bonnie Shaljean 01 Apr 19 - 02:54 PM
Jim Carroll 01 Apr 19 - 02:50 PM
DMcG 01 Apr 19 - 02:48 PM
Iains 01 Apr 19 - 02:40 PM
Steve Shaw 01 Apr 19 - 02:28 PM
Nigel Parsons 01 Apr 19 - 02:26 PM
Jim Carroll 01 Apr 19 - 02:23 PM
Backwoodsman 01 Apr 19 - 02:09 PM
Iains 01 Apr 19 - 01:51 PM
Iains 01 Apr 19 - 01:48 PM
Jim Carroll 01 Apr 19 - 01:25 PM
Jim Carroll 01 Apr 19 - 01:25 PM
David Carter (UK) 01 Apr 19 - 12:51 PM
Stanron 01 Apr 19 - 12:21 PM
DMcG 01 Apr 19 - 12:16 PM
Jim Carroll 01 Apr 19 - 05:38 AM
Jim Carroll 01 Apr 19 - 04:28 AM
DMcG 01 Apr 19 - 04:07 AM
DMcG 01 Apr 19 - 03:42 AM
Jim Carroll 01 Apr 19 - 03:28 AM
Stanron 31 Mar 19 - 09:41 PM
Steve Shaw 31 Mar 19 - 08:18 PM
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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 02 Apr 19 - 05:44 AM

I said bodge, DMcG, not fudge.

My mistake, sorry.

You may well be right about a second referendum. The more it is seen as rerun of the first, rather than a different question, the more open it is to manipulation. That is one reason I have always thought this really needs to be resolved in Parliament, but they appear unwilling to do so. I doubt if a general election will help either. Labour have kept a good focus on things that really matter to people - jobs, education, the NHS - but as Larkin would say the toad Brexit squats on their manifesto too, and I see no good way round that.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 02 Apr 19 - 05:35 AM

An even more useless ploy would be a snap election. It would solve absolutely nothing.

I am coming to the point of view that an election is precisely what is required. The present nest of vipers in the commons need to be reminded forcefully that the electorate expects them to honour their promises.
The referendum result requires implementation, otherwise democracy is destroyed and the executive betrays the trust of the people.
   A reset is the only way forward.
Farage for PM and Rees Mogg as foreign secretary would make me very happy.

The war of Independance in America was fought on the basis of no taxation without representation. Therefore I would argue for as long as we make payments to the EU we maintain our seats in the EU parliament. To act in any other way smacks of reparations for a war we have not lost. Mays withdrawal treaty suffers from the same problem and must not stand.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Apr 19 - 05:22 AM

I said bodge, DMcG, not fudge.

I'm becoming more certain by the day that remain would lose another referendum. Too few people have changed their minds and there will be a backlash from indignant people who might be remain-minded but who would see another vote as being an insult to democracy. There would also be a lot of abstaining or just not bothering. And the leave campaign would be toxic. That worked last time and they would hold even more populist cards this time. An even more useless ploy would be a snap election. It would solve absolutely nothing.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 02 Apr 19 - 05:12 AM

Good to see that you've leapt out of yet another closet and added 'supporter of a racist, misogynist, unstable, and traitorous world leader to your CV'

little jimmie the "I Insult no one" plastic paddy publicly displaying his mendacity for all the world to see.
You could not make it up!(unlike the scouser-who makes up everything)

persistent personally aimed racial abuse seems more than enough to me
Says the idiot that repeatedly labels the valiant eminently sensible Brexiteers as racist little englanders.

Carrol if you wish to continually act as a pig ignorant abusive bigot you can hardly bleat when these self evident truths are pointed out to you. It is hardly my fault that you are have insufficient mental capacity to see this. It is you that is the mental midget. as you demonstrate time after time. Have you considered remedial classes? I am told they help!.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 02 Apr 19 - 05:03 AM

Mudcat advice on how to deal with trolls.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Apr 19 - 04:42 AM

No bait
He needs to stop or be stopped, his persistent behaviour is intolerable; it's totally beyond be why he should be allowed to continue
People have been thrown off this forum for far less - persistent personally aimed racial abuse seems more than enough to me
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 02 Apr 19 - 04:22 AM

Jim, I don't known how many more times or in how many different ways we can we can say ignore him. You have nothing to prove. It is obvious what he is and why he does it but you keep taking the bait.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Apr 19 - 04:12 AM

The government has shown without a vestige of doubt that they are totally incapable of Governing
The have now done the lot - bullied, bribed sectarian politicians, passed the the buck onto others for what it their problem, driven panicking industries out of Britain, fragmented their own party, spiked racism, set the British People one against the other, destabilised the future of Britain for decades to come.... and they are still no clearer on where Britain should go from here
A rudderless nation is detrimental, not only to itself but to the well-being of the planet in the current situation
These are unnecessarily dangerous times and these people are more concerned about their own careers and ambitions than they are of the people who put them into office   
Time to f... them off out of it

"A rather silly remark."
You have already made your name as a web creeper - can you stop stalking me please ?
If you have anything intelligent to say and can manage it without the usual Trump-like racist abuse, say it - not that you'll get a response most o us have become sick to death of your behaviour

Good to see that you've leapt out of yet another closet and added 'supporter of a racist, misogynist, unstable, and traitorous world leader to your CV'
You're going to need a carpenter to replace those worn-out hinges
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 02 Apr 19 - 04:10 AM

Correction - the quote was from another rabid BrexShiteer, David Davis, not Liam Fox. But it's still just as ironic, bearing in mind that Right Wing Extremist BrexShiteers are apparently completely incapable of understanding such a simple concept.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 02 Apr 19 - 04:02 AM

"A democracy that cannot change its mind ceases to be a democracy"
Liam Fox, former Brexit Secretary, 2012.

Such a simple, easily understood concept (unless you happen to be a Right-Wing Extremist, apparently).


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 02 Apr 19 - 03:50 AM

I>And they refuse the people a second vote !!!!!!!!

A rather silly remark. If the first vote of the people in the recent referendum is ignored, what notice would be taken of a second?

In a democracy the winner wins(or is supposed to) Why do leftards require that this very simple concept be explained to them repeatedly.

Does their socialist sense of entitlement make them think the majority csn be ignored and over ridden? Their constant whining is getting tiresome.

This is very similar to democrats trying to depose the President on all sorts of trumped up charges.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 02 Apr 19 - 03:44 AM

I guess that will be a rolling date in the algorithm. Pretty much like the date for brexit :-)


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 02 Apr 19 - 03:22 AM

But there is something called 'common sense', which the vast majority of us here have

Yes indeed. And Excel's algorithm (for example), of treating 00-29 as 2000-2029 and 30-99 as 1930-1999 is an attempt to implement that common sense interpretation.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 02 Apr 19 - 03:03 AM

"Oh, I wasn't. I am afraid when someone has the choice of admitting they made a mistake and instead works hard to explain how it must be someone else in error however foolish it makes them look, it is obvious that any further discussion on the point is futile."

Yep, I completely agree. Sadly, some people's need to 'win' over-rides everything else, so they indulge in picking smaller and smaller nits, and thus making themselves appear increasingly ridiculous.

"No, I was interested in whether there actually are any international standards for interpreting two digit years. That was completely independent to discussing the specific example.   In short, there isn't. unless the contest is 100% clear. In a book talking about the Napoleonic Wars, for example, the century would be clearly understood in most cases."

But there is something called 'common sense', which the vast majority of us here have, with one or two notable, nit-picking exceptions.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 02 Apr 19 - 03:02 AM

On the question of 'fudge': I am not certain. The distinction between a fudge and a compromise, in my interpretation, is that a fudge is a phrase or arrangement where the two sides can interpret it differently, and I am not at all sure there is scope for that, because whatever we end up with will be international law.

Since Labour whipped for three of the options, and the rest of the opposition was broadly in line, I see very little scope for changing the numbers on the opposition benches: merging some motions is very unlikely to achieve anything in itself. So I think Nick Boles was right to blame the Conservatives for not being prepared to compromise. To clarify, I do not mean those like the ERG, but any Conservative MP who voted against a no-deal, but also against any way to ensure that.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 02 Apr 19 - 02:51 AM

Thanks DMcG and BS, but I suggest you don't waste time on answering our nitpicker friend

Oh, I wasn't. I am afraid when someone has the choice of admitting they made a mistake and instead works hard to explain how it must be someone else in error however foolish it makes them look, it is obvious that any further discussion on the point is futile.


No, I was interested in whether there actually are any international standards for interpreting two digit years. That was completely independent to discussing the specific example.   In short, there isn't. unless the contest is 100% clear. In a book talking about the Napoleonic Wars, for example, the century would be clearly understood in most cases.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Apr 19 - 02:44 AM

And they refuse the people a second vote !!!!!!!!
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 Apr 19 - 07:44 PM

Well, after today anything that Parliament/government can desperately scrabble together as a "compromise" is going to look like a bodge. We need breathing space.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 01 Apr 19 - 05:01 PM

John Bercow aka ‘Mr Squeaker’?

    He is the very model of a modern minor genital,
    His exclamations patronising, animal, imperial,
    He is the Prince of Parliament, he quotes debates historical,
    From Erskine May to made-up way, in order quite dishonourable.

..With information too on matters constitutional,
    His fabrication aptitude is very close to criminal,
    In short in matters statesmanlike, both legally and practical,
    He occupies a swamp of bilge and is in fact piratical.

....with abject apologies to Gilbert and Sullivan


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 01 Apr 19 - 04:40 PM

And another adage the nitpicker would do well to keep in mind...."When you find yourself in a hole, stop digging". (WPA (Will) Rogers).


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 01 Apr 19 - 04:35 PM

...apart from, apparently, our nitpicker-imbecile friend.

Good old Musket used to have a two-word expression that he used to describe idiots, which he abbreviated to 'TC'. Appropriate for our nitpicker, methinks.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 01 Apr 19 - 04:32 PM

Thanks DMcG and BS, but I suggest you don't waste time on answering our nitpicker friend. In DD/MM/YY date format, it's a given that the third element refers to the current century, any fule no that...


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 01 Apr 19 - 04:27 PM

but 31/3/19... suggests that something has been left out after the '19' making it a date in the twentieth century.
A standardised form for dates would be useful, if people kept to it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 01 Apr 19 - 03:26 PM

Having got interested in the subject now, ISO 8601:2000 defined how two digit years were interpreted, but this is no longer a standard. Excel interprets years 00-29 to be 2000-2029 by default, but this is changeable. Other systems use a different 'change over point'. IBM use 40 so 00-39 are interpreted as 2000-2039 and 40-99 as 1940-1999.   

I have not found a system that thinks 19 represents 1919 yet, and don't think it worth exploring further.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 01 Apr 19 - 03:14 PM

And remember the old adage, nitpicker - "Nobody likes a clever-shit".


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 01 Apr 19 - 03:11 PM

"The post claims to be from a date in the twentieth century: 31/3/19... and mentions the 2016 referendum."

Errrmm....no, you half-baked, nitpicking nitwit, the italicised part is from FaceBook, the plain text part was mine, and the date is 31st March, 2019 - yesterday!

Back to school, nitpicker.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 01 Apr 19 - 03:05 PM

This is the link I googled into:

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/comment/pm-could-suffer-a-new-m-luddy-nose-znpjk2rvt

(Sorry, DMcG, I misinterpreted your "Monday" comment... d'oh)


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 01 Apr 19 - 02:54 PM

Cross-posted with Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 01 Apr 19 - 02:54 PM

Ummm... today is Monday. And when I googled The Times for Sunday 31st, I found the following:

PM could suffer a new m'luddy nose | Comment | The Sunday Times

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/.../pm-could-suffer-a-new-m-luddy-nose-znpjk2rvt

March 31 2019, 12:01am, The Sunday Times

By Roland White, www.thetimes.co.uk View Original March 31st, 2019

You wouldn't think matters could get much worse for Theresa May, but she could soon be prosecuted over Brexit. In nine days' time a judge will consider whether she should be charged with misconduct in a public office.

Professor Joshua Silver, an Oxford physicist, and barrister David Wolchover claim the government did not take proper account of impact assessments before triggering article 50. "The prime minister wilfully ignored all such assessments and wrongly made her decision exclusively on the outcome of the referendum," they say. "She deliberately broke the law, with potentially catastrophic consequences."

How apt that a physicist intervenes just as the entire Brexit process seems to be collapsing into a black hole.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Apr 19 - 02:50 PM

"Was that long post really worth quoting?"
I think the answer lies in the name 'Farcebook' Nigel
Some people welcome a distraction from the daily horror of having to pick their way over the ruins of real news - keeps us from grabbing a rope and looking for a lamppost
This has got to be more and more like a daily display of nasty children throwing their toys out of their pram (nicely reflectedby the Brexiteers here
Apart from Codeword, my only pleasure in buying a newspaper is to join the newsagent in curling up over the antics of "them lot over there"
Britain has become the laughing stock of the world - even Trump is drawing a line on America's dealings if ther is a 'no deal' crashing out
When lunatics like him wash their hands of the shenanigans of the asylum things have gone badly awry
The economist who predicted that Brexit would break up the UK and destroy the economy got that one right
Must go, 'That Was the UK That Was' is on tele shortly
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 01 Apr 19 - 02:48 PM

Just saw this on FarceBook, from Sunday 31/3/19...

Some people are far too gullible on All Fools Day.
The post claims to be from a date in the twentieth century: 31/3/19... and mentions the 2016 referendum.

Was that long post really worth quoting?


Really? Sunday 31/3/19 sounds like yesterday to me. After all 31/3/1919 was a Monday.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 01 Apr 19 - 02:40 PM

Eric Bogle

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mzoh0e_YOiI


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 Apr 19 - 02:28 PM

I'm pretty certain that if you could ask Bercow why he rejected the motion concerning unilaterally leaving the backstop, he would tell you that he doesn't want MPs wasting time debating a motion that would be impossible to execute. The whole point of the backstop is that any decision to leave it must be made by both sides agreeing with each other. If we could leave it without the EU's agreement it wouldn't be a backstop.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 01 Apr 19 - 02:26 PM

Just saw this on FarceBook, from Sunday 31/3/19...

Some people are far too gullible on All Fools Day.
The post claims to be from a date in the twentieth century: 31/3/19... and mentions the 2016 referendum.

Was that long post really worth quoting?


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Apr 19 - 02:23 PM

Britain has been without an effective gobvenment for some time now yet still the Brexit Braindeads talk about 'stitch-ups' un order to move things one way or the other - patriots who accuse critics of the elected government of being "traitors"
While i's comfortable to see them all running around like headless chickens it makes you wonder who's minding the store
I'm sure our patriotic friends here could tell us
Clowns all - inside and outside politics
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 01 Apr 19 - 02:09 PM

Just saw this on FarceBook, from Sunday 31/3/19...

From The Sunday Times and The New Law Journal today......

"David Wolchover sets out why moves are afoot to prosecute the prime minister for misconduct in public office

On Friday 22 March Oxford University Professor of Physics Joshua Silver and I formally asked Westminster Magistrates' Court for a summons against the prime minister alleging misconduct in public office, a crime under common law carrying a maximum of life imprisonment. The application was adjourned to April 9 for a full oral hearing before the Deputy Senior District Judge for England and Wales.

This is no stunt. Nobody is above the law, least of all high officers of state administering major government business. Although the allegation concerns the activation of Article 50 on 29 March 2017, the conclusive evidence only surfaced in January, as I recently revealed in New Law Journal ('Did activating Article 50 constitute an indictable offence?' 12 March 2019).

Our case essentially hinges on the statutory basis of the European Referendum 2016. As the Supreme Court affirmed in the landmark Miller decision it was no more than 'advisory,' the commons briefing paper on the EU Referendum Bill having explained that the proposed ballot was of a 'type . . . known as pre-legislative or consultative which enables the electorate to voice an opinion which then influences the Government in its policy decisions.' Not only was that definition never disavowed by the Cameron Government but it was implicitly adopted by Minister for Europe David Lidington during the Commons Committee stage of the Bill. This did not deter David Cameron and his ministers from repeatedly stating that they would 'honour' the outcome. But those avowals were, as the Supreme Court further held, no more than political and were based on no legal foundation.

In the Webster case last year the Administrative Court confirmed that the EU (Notification of Withdrawal) Act 2017, passed in response to Miller, had delegated to the prime minister the discretionary power to make the Article 50 withdrawal decision. But that discretion was not unfettered. Since the referendum was not legally determinative of the leave/remain issue but merely advisory I would contend that the prime minister was constitutionally debarred from making the withdrawal decision exclusively on the basis of the referendum result.

Instead, she was duty bound to abide by that universal precept of rational policy-making, the obligation to scrutinise methodically all relevant and tangible factors. It's what sensible people do in their own lives. We don't buy a car simply because it's red. Good governance is no different.

But we now know that in deciding to activate Article 50 the prime minister ignored everything but the referendum outcome. Strong suspicions about this were provoked by the government's vacillations in Parliament over the impact assessments and were finally confirmed in the response by the Cabinet Office on January 23 to a Freedom of Information request by Action for Europe's Richard Bird.

As I argued in my New Law Journal article, the democratic imperative was not satisfied simply by implementing the statistically insignificant slight tilt towards leave. What counts is the constitutional imperative of rationally examining all relevant considerations. Constitutional imperatives are legal ones. They are the law and without the rule of law, democracy is meaningless. The prime minister deliberately flouted her constitutional obligations. With potentially disastrous consequences she broke the law.

It might be countered that the prime minister must have assimilated all the leave/remain arguments put forward during the referendum campaign and the passage of the EU (Notice of Withdrawal) Bill. But exposure to tendentious, if not mendacious, assertions advanced in the emotionally charged context of the debate on whether to continue our membership of the EU can hardly equate to dispassionate scrutiny of expert, systematically researched and detailed multi-disciplinary impact predictions. We now know that no such assessments were undertaken until those which were commissioned by the Department for Exiting the EU at the earliest in late 2017. There were no formal consultations outside Parliament and of course no public inquiry has ever been held.

It is inconceivable that Mrs May was on a frolic of her own when she activated Article 50. She was plainly supported and encouraged by her cabinet colleagues and since it may be comfortably assumed that they too had no regard for any factors apart from the referendum outcome it can be inferred that to a man and woman they were aiding and abetting her. No doubt this will be confirmed by cabinet minutes to which as yet the public are not privy. But there can be no safety in numbers. Collective responsibility will not exculpate any one of them, whether the prime minister or her colleagues.

This brings us to the impending Conservative leadership contest. If her successor was in the cabinet on the fatal date it may be appropriate to add that individual to the indictment. In the next few days we shall therefore be considering for the time-being a postponement of our application.

David Wolchover is a barrister at Ridgeway Chambers and Article6Law, 2 King's Bench Walk."


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 01 Apr 19 - 01:51 PM

John Bercow has cooked up yet another Speaker’s Stitch-up Special with his selections for tonight’s second batch of indicative votes tonight. Bercow selected only four Remainer motions for MPs to vote on tonight. They are more or less identical to the ones which were all rejected just five days ago:

    C (Clarke) – Customs Union – already rejected 272-264
    D (Boles) – Common Market 2.0 – already rejected 283-188
    E (Kyle) – Second referendum – already rejected 295-268
    G (Cherry) – Revoke Article 50 – already rejected 293-184

Bercow refused to allow any Brexiteer motions including John Baron’s Motion A on a unilateral right of exit from the backstop. Despite this previously securing a majority in the Commons in the form of the Brady Amendment.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 01 Apr 19 - 01:48 PM

Is a Speaker who is not impartial truly a Speaker?

The government cannot resubmit motions a second time however those that have hijacked the Parliamentary process merely have to change the name of the person submitting the motion in order to submit it times without measure.
The crowning insult is grubby little corbyn 3 line whipping for free movement despite the total opposite on their election manifesto.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Apr 19 - 01:25 PM

"Is a Speaker who is not impartial truly a Speaker?"
A Tory who thinks he is Donald Trump methinks
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Apr 19 - 01:25 PM

"Is a Speaker who is not impartial truly a Speaker?"
A Tory who thinks he is Donald Trump methinks
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 01 Apr 19 - 12:51 PM

Farage is wrong as usual. The only one of those motions which would continue free movement, not uncontrolled of course, it never has been uncontrolled, is the Boles motion. Clarke's customs union would not. Kyle's motion would allow a vote on it. And Cherry's would just prevent an utter catastrophe.

And in any case, free movement is a massive boon for the people, particularly the young and ambitious people, of the UK.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Stanron
Date: 01 Apr 19 - 12:21 PM

Is a Speaker who is not impartial truly a Speaker?


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 01 Apr 19 - 12:16 PM

I knew some Brexiteer would immediately yelp about the motions Bercow selected, so I was hardly surprised when Farage tweeted:


The 4 motions Bercow has just selected for votes tonight are all Remain and all continue uncontrolled free movement.


Really not keen on Parliament having control, is he?


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Apr 19 - 05:38 AM

On second thoughts
Parhaps somebody who objects to being accused of racism using terms like "plasic Paddy" and who objects to being called a ""Little Englander" by suggesting that if you don't live in England you have no right to an opinion on what goes on there, is in need of help rather than disciplining   
You really couldn't make this up if you were script-writing for Spitting Image
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Apr 19 - 04:28 AM

"All this from the plastic paddy"
Can the mods please do soething with these persistent racist attacks on forum members ?
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 01 Apr 19 - 04:07 AM

Nigel and I have been comparing predictions, which I summarised as

Over on the earlier thread, I referred to a prediction Nigel had made that we would leave on 31st on WTO rules, whereas I predicted come the 1st April we would still be trying to decide what we are doing.


Since it is now 1st April, I thought I would check up where we were. I think we will all agree that my half was right: we are still trying to decide what to do. However, it turns out I don't have Nigel's prediction quite right. What he said was:

====
Subject: RE: BS: Predictions for the coming new year
From: Nigel Parsons - PM
Date: 23 Dec 18 - 07:46 PM

UK will leave EU on WTO terms.

====
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Nigel Parsons - PM
Date: 15 Mar 19 - 06:50 AM

DMcG:
Sorry Nigel, but the odds now that your prediction that we would leave on 29th March and mine that we would still be in a state of uncertainty on 1st April currently looks in my favour.
Actually, we could both be right :)

====
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Nigel Parsons - PM
Date: 17 Mar 19 - 08:15 PM

Yes, amending the date could be dealt with quickly. If the EU agree to the request. We can't unilaterally delay Brexit.
Even if the EU agree to the request, there needs to be legal agreement in parliament to cancel the Brexit which is already in law for 29 March. The way things have gone so far, can you see all that being passed through all the required stages in the next 11 days?
====


Read all that very carefully, and we can see Nigel never quite predicted we would leave on 29th March...


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 01 Apr 19 - 03:42 AM

More accurate than that, stanron, would be to put "except Prof Minford and his team" in parentheses. Unless you can name some economists not associated in any way with Minford? Even Minford accepts that the UK farming and industrial sectors could be severely damaged, but sees this as a rebalancing between producers and consumers.   I think even so most people would regard a severe shrinkage of those sectors as "very damaging for the country". (Certainly, if we came under sort of sanctions in the future for whatever reason, our ability to withstand them would be severely hampered. That ability to be independent is a form of sovereignty, by the way.)


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Apr 19 - 03:28 AM

"And no vicious personal insults"
Isn't contanly ignoring what people have to say "insulting"
You never reply to what has been put up - not ever
It seems some people appear to regard argument as insult
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Stanron
Date: 31 Mar 19 - 09:41 PM

You missed out, in parenthesis, 'Who is against Brexit', as you are. And no vicious personal insults. Steve you are letting your standards slip.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 31 Mar 19 - 08:18 PM

But what Mrs May is trying to do would be very damaging for the country. Every economist, including the ones advising the government, have said as much. And I challenge you to tell me what, post-election, whatever the outcome, would happen next. Whether it would be any better than what we have now.


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