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BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?

Backwoodsman 26 Apr 19 - 04:48 AM
Steve Shaw 26 Apr 19 - 06:43 AM
Jim Carroll 26 Apr 19 - 08:23 AM
SPB-Cooperator 26 Apr 19 - 10:05 AM
Nigel Parsons 26 Apr 19 - 10:21 AM
Jim Carroll 26 Apr 19 - 10:51 AM
DMcG 26 Apr 19 - 11:12 AM
Dave the Gnome 26 Apr 19 - 01:17 PM
DMcG 26 Apr 19 - 02:04 PM
Mossback 26 Apr 19 - 05:01 PM
DMcG 28 Apr 19 - 03:51 AM
Bonnie Shaljean 28 Apr 19 - 06:13 AM
Jim Carroll 28 Apr 19 - 07:36 AM
Iains 28 Apr 19 - 01:53 PM
Iains 28 Apr 19 - 02:07 PM
DMcG 29 Apr 19 - 02:13 AM
Iains 29 Apr 19 - 06:03 AM
mayomick 29 Apr 19 - 06:39 AM
Stanron 29 Apr 19 - 11:33 AM
Donuel 29 Apr 19 - 02:07 PM
Jim Carroll 29 Apr 19 - 02:33 PM
peteaberdeen 29 Apr 19 - 02:41 PM
peteaberdeen 29 Apr 19 - 04:32 PM
The Sandman 29 Apr 19 - 05:37 PM
DMcG 30 Apr 19 - 03:39 AM
Backwoodsman 30 Apr 19 - 04:55 AM
Steve Shaw 30 Apr 19 - 07:54 AM
Backwoodsman 30 Apr 19 - 08:28 AM
DMcG 30 Apr 19 - 12:11 PM
Dave the Gnome 01 May 19 - 04:10 AM
Backwoodsman 01 May 19 - 04:21 AM
Jim Carroll 01 May 19 - 01:14 PM
DMcG 02 May 19 - 05:45 AM
Iains 02 May 19 - 11:52 AM
Dave the Gnome 03 May 19 - 03:39 AM
DMcG 03 May 19 - 04:00 AM
Iains 03 May 19 - 04:15 AM
Iains 03 May 19 - 06:19 AM
David Carter (UK) 03 May 19 - 06:26 AM
Dave the Gnome 03 May 19 - 08:48 AM
Iains 03 May 19 - 10:01 AM
DMcG 03 May 19 - 10:40 AM
DMcG 03 May 19 - 10:50 AM
Dave the Gnome 03 May 19 - 10:55 AM
Iains 03 May 19 - 11:08 AM
Dave the Gnome 03 May 19 - 12:48 PM
Bonnie Shaljean 03 May 19 - 02:13 PM
Bonnie Shaljean 03 May 19 - 02:52 PM
Iains 03 May 19 - 02:53 PM
Steve Shaw 03 May 19 - 07:03 PM
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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 26 Apr 19 - 04:48 AM

Dave, it’s virtually impossible to place any credence whatsoever on an anti-Labour propaganda-piece, printed by the Torygraph - the mouthpiece of the propaganda department of the Tory party. As the foul harridan Thatcher once famously said, “They would say that, wouldn’t they?”.

The only people daft enough to fall for their drivel are those who feverishly seek confirmation-bias for their own misguided, misinformed opinions.

Nigs’s post is just another typical pathetic attempt, in true-blue Tory tradition, at diverting attention from the fact that Brexit is in deep doo-doo. Really hardly worth commenting on.

Meanwhile, any good news about BrexShit?


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Apr 19 - 06:43 AM

Oborne's article is the biggest load of badly-argued bollocks I've read in months. Go on, take a look and be entertained. Shame on you for digging that one up, Nigel.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Apr 19 - 08:23 AM

Not only that, it is referring to a time when 'New Labour' had embraced the best of the Tory values and were virtually indistinguishable one from the other
The vitriolic attacks on somebody who is wanting to change things is evidence enough of that
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/theresa-may-general-election-expenses-scandal-distract-schedule-mps-tory-party-paul-nuttall-david-a7690106.html


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 26 Apr 19 - 10:05 AM

We may want to take this into consideration before entering into any trade deal with US
Antibiotic use in farm animals


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 26 Apr 19 - 10:21 AM

Not bad for responses to a single post:
DMcG says it is "whataboutism". At least that has the value of being a modern idea.
Dave the Gnome says it is six years old. But it was the most recent wide-ranging investigation into the snouts in the trough.
Steve Shaw says that that article is the biggest load of badly-argued bollocks I've read in months but doesn't try to contradict any of its findings.
Jim Carroll seems to believe that the Labour MPs at the time were actually conservatives in disguise. Heads up- they weren't voted in by the Conservatives.

The standards of posting here are certainly failing!


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Apr 19 - 10:51 AM

"Jim Carroll seems to believe that the Labour MPs at the time were actually conservatives in disguise." That's about the size of 'New Labour' as far as I'm concerned - the leadership took up all your shitty values including dipping into the public purse to furnish their duck palaces and setting up offshore accounts
I stopped voting for anybody when Blair showed his predatory head - if I lived in the UK I'd walk over broken glass to give Labour a second chance
Your party is no longer one to be taken seriously - Ukip has more direction and unity than your mmob have and they're scum
As usual, you have totally chosen to ignore the fact that your party was as corrupt and self serving as any on the parliamentary scene
Your standards aren't failing - they've never been anything to write home about - evasive, to say the least
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 26 Apr 19 - 11:12 AM

DMcG says it is "whataboutism".

I said it was about not answering the question. Which it was, and your recent post still is. I said "whataboutism" is the technique you used. But that was incidental (and not a modern idea, by the way). The salient point was avoiding the question, as you still are.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 26 Apr 19 - 01:17 PM

The point is, Nigel, that you only bring up a 6 year old article to try and deflect some of the shit that your party is still causing. As DMcG says, you are simply underlining the fact that you are avoiding the question. It isn't working.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 26 Apr 19 - 02:04 PM

now something more important about Brexit

Labour has worked hard on staying ambiguous, but they are running out of road. They will probably have to be clear in the next week or two. Perhaps not before the local election tions, but well before the EU ones.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Mossback
Date: 26 Apr 19 - 05:01 PM

Trumpshit Goes Brexshit. Or vice versa.

He's takin are cuntry bak.

Donald Trump has announced that the US will withdraw its support for a United Nations treaty regulating the multibillion-dollar global arms trade.

Trump said: “We’re taking our signature back. Under my administration, we will never surrender American sovereignty to anyone. We will never allow foreign bureaucrats to trample on your second amendment freedom. I’m officially announcing today that the United States will be revoking the effect of America’s signature from this badly misguided treaty.”


Jesus wept.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 28 Apr 19 - 03:51 AM

New IRA says Brexit helps it to recruit, according to a paywall article in the Sunday Times.

Of course, they would say that. But taking into account that any form of Brexit is the UK imposing something on Northern Ireland they voted against, the New IRA is probably right that it make recruiting easier. Objecting that the vote applied to the UK as a whole has no bearing on the fact that the possible recruits are from a community that voted to remain.

It emphasises yet again for those too blinkered to see that the border is not just about how you collect tariffs.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 28 Apr 19 - 06:13 AM

Headline in the Belfast Telegraph below says it all. The leader of Saoradh has actually called Brexit a "pilot light" in "reigniting that side of physical force". Elsewhere he declares, "By reviving talk of a hard border, Brexit was a huge opportunity... gives it focus, gives it a physical picture. It’s a huge help'."

But hey. Who cares, right? As long as it's not YOU who has to live with the danger and mutilation and loss and heartbreak.


Brexit a recruiting tool for dissidents, says Saoradh chief
Belfast Telegraph

Brexit is a 'huge help' to Irish republicanism, says dissident leader
Guardian

New dissidents hoping to exploit Brexit
BBC (nearly a year old)

https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/northern-ireland/brexit-a-recruiting-tool-for-dissidents-says-saoradh-chief-37891141.html

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/mar/06/brexit-is-a-huge-help-to-irish-republicanism-says-dissident-leader

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-northern-ireland-44082633



Can't get the clickifier to work. But there's plenty more where that came from.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Apr 19 - 07:36 AM

One of the nastier aspects of Brexit has just hit the Irish fan
Peter Casey, who used the hatred of Irish Travellers to fight the Presidential election is now aspiring to be an EU representative on a "get rid of the freeloading immigrants" ticket - he is at present campaigning in Tuam
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 28 Apr 19 - 01:53 PM

Meanwhile back to things appertaining to brexit.
We are now in the kind of territory that we have not seen since the days of the SDP. The Brexit Party (28%) is polling ahead of Labour (22%) and polling more than double the vote share of the Tories (13%).

Not delivering a promise on Brexit comes at a price!


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 28 Apr 19 - 02:07 PM

Voting shortly closes in Spain. The outcome could upset the cosy club in Brussells. It will be interesting t0 see how Catalonia fares. The right is expected to show a resurgence.
In France Le Pen is giving Macron a hardtime, and despite the media playing it down the riots are still ongoing
    Riot police unleashed tear gas on protesters in Strasbourg today(26th) as they surrounded European Parliament
    Fights happened despite €5million measures proposed by Emmanuel Macron on their 24th day of protest
   

Politicians do need to listen to their electorate.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 29 Apr 19 - 02:13 AM

Tomorrow night the NEC has to finalise the Labour manifesto for the EU elections, so here are my thoughts on how the argument will go.

Forget what is good for the country, or Labour core principles or other abstractions. It will all be a numbers game, driven as cold-heartedly as possible. Currently most polls have Labour and the Brexit party in a two horse race, and about equal numbers.

Option 1 is to come out as Remain/Revoke/Confirmatory referendum. This will upset Leave voters who have stayed under the Labour umbrella, and a goodly fraction would move from Labour to the Brexit Party. Labour is weakened and the Brexit Party strengthened.

Option 2 is to come out as Brexit. This will make a good few remain supporters move the Green or Change UK, but obviously none will move to the Brexit Party. However, some people in the Brexit Party will be there who are Labour at heart but did not trust it to leave. They may move back. So this option may leave Labour more or less the same on numbers, but weaken Nigel.

Option 3 is to stay ambiguous. They will probably have some Labour voters move to Green or ChangeUK in frustration, but almost all of this will already have happened.

Conclusion:
Most likely: stay ambiguous
Next most likely: Come out for Brexit
Least likely: Confirmatory vote.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 29 Apr 19 - 06:03 AM

Currently most polls have Labour and the Brexit party in a two horse race, and about equal numbers.   ??????

The Brexit Party (28%) is polling ahead of Labour (22%)


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: mayomick
Date: 29 Apr 19 - 06:39 AM

“Referring to Tory arch Brexiteer, and leader of the party’s European Research Group, Mr Ahern described Jacob Rees Mogg as a "lovely fella when he’s asleep"”

Ireland’s former taoiseach Bertie Ahern being unusually frank when talking about Brexiteers last week. Asked what he meant Ahern was even more blunt   "When he’s awake, he definitely is a strange fish I tell you, in and out of the water."

"And regards to the fact that lot of these guys went to Oxford, Cambridge and Eton, they’re not very bright. This is the problem."

With such personalised rancour coming out it in public, you’d have to wonder - and fear - what is being said in private discussions.
https://www.independent.ie/business/brexit/brexiteer-jacob-rees-mogg-admitted-to-me-he-didnt-know-what-the-irish-border-was-bertie-ahern-38057788.html


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Stanron
Date: 29 Apr 19 - 11:33 AM

Leftard is offensive but Brexshitter is perfectly acceptable? Brilliant.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Donuel
Date: 29 Apr 19 - 02:07 PM

I'm hearing anti semetic whistles about Corbyn over here. ?


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Apr 19 - 02:33 PM

"I'm hearing anti semetic whistles about Corbyn over here. ?"
As usual
It is now four years since leading members of the Muslim community in Britain pointed out that there was a serious problem of Islamophobia within the Tory Party - STILL FESTERING
Nothing has been done - not even an acknowledgement
That's how important this sort of thing is to the Guido Gobshites
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: peteaberdeen
Date: 29 Apr 19 - 02:41 PM

donuel, it's just offensive to me anyway, to refer to the word 'retard' as a form of abuse. it's offensive for a clear reason to anyone with any respect for folk with disabilities.

'brexshitter' doesn't bother me much, there has been plenty of such insults in this nasty wee squabble.

insults like 'betrayal' or traitor' are something else - they allow people to get very self-righteous and sometimes angry. having received physical threats myself for being a remoaner and a 'traitor' - i wish we could forget all about this brexit idea and go back to being civil to each other and to our neighbours.

as it is, our house goes on the market tomorrow and we hope to move somewhere where there is a more diverse community and less bad feeling.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: peteaberdeen
Date: 29 Apr 19 - 04:32 PM

whatever.....


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: The Sandman
Date: 29 Apr 19 - 05:37 PM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7W67Xppg434


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 30 Apr 19 - 03:39 AM

Three former Labour members have been arrested

note well: FORMER. Not Labour members, then.

Here is a cutting about it from the Independenat - March 28th, by the way, so a few weeks old.

"The Independent understands that the three suspects have been subject to disciplinary action by the Labour Party and are no longer members.

A Labour Party spokesperson said: "We welcome the police investigating these individuals’ alleged crimes. Antisemitism has no place in our society and we are committed to challenging and campaigning against it in all its forms."


So Labour took action, Exactly what you are demanding. Not that you acknowledge that, of course,


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 30 Apr 19 - 04:55 AM

More Tory-Right-Wing Diversion Tactics. Brexshit a complete and utter balls up? “Look over there - Labour anti-semitism”. Tory Party ripping itself to pieces? “Look over there - Corbyn the terrorist’s friend”.

Utter horse-shit being spread by a bunch of desperate yesterday’s men and women.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Apr 19 - 07:54 AM

And plank goes with yank...inchoate notions about 'im floating through my mind here, John... ;-)


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 30 Apr 19 - 08:28 AM

Come to think of it, Steve, ‘plank’ is a bloody good description of him.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 30 Apr 19 - 12:11 PM

As predicted, it seems the NEC has decided to stay ambiguous over whether it will or will not support a confirmatory vote. I think this could easily put off a lot of the people who deliver leaflets, etc, so expect very little of that before the EU elections.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 01 May 19 - 04:10 AM

I like turnips!


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 01 May 19 - 04:21 AM

Me too - preferably mashed! ;-)


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 May 19 - 01:14 PM

ANOTHER ONE BITES THE DUST
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 02 May 19 - 05:45 AM

If people are influenced greatly by Brexit in local elections it would show how little they understand the UK system of governance. That the EU elections are all about Brexit is right, but not local elections.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 02 May 19 - 11:52 AM

The Brexit Party has continued its impressive rise, opening a nine point lead over the Labour Party and hitting 30% for the first time in YouGov’s latest European Election poll. All Remain parties other than the Lib Dems are falling. With their established ground operation and much higher recognition as a pro-Remain party, Vince Cable’s has-beens look set to beat upstarts Change UK on polling day.

UKIP won these elections in 2014 with just 26.6% of the vote, on a much lower turnout than expected this time around. Turns out people really don’t like having their democratic votes ignored…

Below a serious discussion of weighting before we have the usual contemptuous dismissal of yougov by the usual.
http://ukpollingreport.co.uk/faq-weighting


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 03 May 19 - 03:39 AM

Good to see that the bulk of the protest votes have gone to the pro-Europe Lib-Dem and Green parties. Maybe people are not as stupid as Farage thinks.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 03 May 19 - 04:00 AM

Indeed, Dave. If you order the parties by attitude, then the hard Brexiteers of UKIP lost heavily in proportion to previously held seats, through the confused middle (which was down) to the pro-EU parties that did well.

However, I still maintain that it was inappropriate for a voter to pay too much attention to Brexit when deciding how to vote. In fact, despite what the press is suggesting, I think any glib assumption that the dissatisfaction with the government is all about Brexit rather than say austerity, Windrush, the wondrous incompetence of Grayling and the rest lacks evidence. That Brexit played a part is undeniable. How big a part is uncertain.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 03 May 19 - 04:15 AM

However the view held by knowledgeable pundits differs.
"With less than half of council election results counted the Tories have already hemorrhaged more than 250 seats as the party was abandoned by voters furious about the state of Brexit. The party had already been braced for a tough night amid frustration at Prime Minister Theresa May's failure to take Britain out of the EU on March 29 as planned. But election guru Sir John Curtice declared voters had declared 'a plague on both your houses' as both the Conservatives and Labour took big hits in their heartlands in the South East and North respectively. Furious Brexit supporters took to social media to show they had spoiled their ballot papers to show their demand to leave the EU immediately (right). But the Lib Dems, a hardcore Remain party, made significant gains with some predictions they could add up to 5000 council seats."
      It hardly needs pointing out that a tactical protest vote went to the Libdems because that was the only way to hurt the main two parties.
and hurt them they did! To try to explain it in any other way portrays a staggering degree of political naivety.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 03 May 19 - 06:19 AM

Dennis Skinner's Bolsover council lost to Tories deep in the Labour heartland.

Labour Staffer: ‘Corbyn is Poison on the Doorstep’

The valiant Brxiteers are giving a pasting at the hustings.
The Brexit party has a 9% clear lead for the upcoming EU elections.

John McDonnell told LBC: “I am aiming for sort of about 400” seat gains. At the time of going to pixel Labour have actually lost seats on the night.(and the bloodletting is far from over.)

The silent majority are making their presence known!


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 03 May 19 - 06:26 AM

Yes, by voting in droves for the Lib Dema and Greens, both pro remain parties. The remain fightback is on #nottakingthislyingdown #revokeandremain.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 03 May 19 - 08:48 AM

BBC news 13:30 today

Tories down 600
Labour down 80
UKIP down 60

Libdem up 400
Green up 80


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 03 May 19 - 10:01 AM

There are several ways of displaying displeasure while polling:
1)Stay away and not vote.(a meaningless protest)
2)Deface the ballot paper (It registers as a protest vote but achieves zilch)
3)Vote for the third horse (This is very clearly what has happened)

If the Lib Dems regard it as a ringing endorsement of their policies have I got news for them. Needless to say members of the loony left are in complete denial of this self evident truth. But then they also argue leave did not win the referendum.
Gravity can bend light, socialists can bend truth!

This fits in well with a Corbynism:
'Stand in the middle of the road and you get run over in both directions': (poor lad has 80 tyre tracks and counting)


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 03 May 19 - 10:40 AM

Vote for the third horse (This is very clearly what has happened)

Or if there are more than three horses, the one that most matches your wishes. So explain the UKIP losses again...


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 03 May 19 - 10:50 AM

To be fair, I imagine some of the UKIP votes went to independents, rather than the main parties.

But it still seems an intriguing way of thinking to reject parties that may or may not give you want you want to vote for the one party that will definitely not give you what you want.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 03 May 19 - 10:55 AM

Does anyone know the percentage of support gained and lost? If I remember rightly UKIP only had about 100 seats so a loss of 80 is a more severe blow than Labours loss of 80 out of 6000 and odd.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 03 May 19 - 11:08 AM

If voting strategically to bloody the nose of Tory and Labour there is no point in voting for minority parties. It merely creates statistical noise. Going for the third runner hurts the other two, as the results testify. No further analysis is required.

Had it been a General Election the Brexit party would form the government. They did not participate in the council elections.

So far Tories lose 676 seats and Labour 91 with results in 162 of 248 councils in humbling backlash for both parties!


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 03 May 19 - 12:48 PM

Almost 1000 Tory seats lost and UKIP all but wiped out of local government. A good day :-)


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 03 May 19 - 02:13 PM

Tory net losses now top 1100.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 03 May 19 - 02:52 PM

Make that 1300


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 03 May 19 - 02:53 PM

I doubt many MPs will be smirking after this. If the EU elections go ahead the political map in the UK will be redrawn. The Tories have found Armageddon and the anticipated Labour gains of 400 have been a complete myth. But perhaps their worship of Janus was not. But being blinkered has its drawbacks!


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 May 19 - 07:03 PM

"Had it been a General Election the Brexit party would form the government."

In the kingdom of the amazingly bonkers, this is by far the most bonkers thing I've read in years.


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