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BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?

DMcG 30 Oct 19 - 11:20 AM
Steve Shaw 30 Oct 19 - 10:51 AM
Iains 30 Oct 19 - 08:12 AM
Steve Shaw 30 Oct 19 - 08:02 AM
Steve Shaw 30 Oct 19 - 07:39 AM
Steve Shaw 30 Oct 19 - 06:05 AM
DMcG 30 Oct 19 - 03:19 AM
Iains 29 Oct 19 - 05:35 PM
DMcG 29 Oct 19 - 04:43 PM
Jim Carroll 29 Oct 19 - 04:02 PM
Stanron 29 Oct 19 - 03:34 PM
Backwoodsman 29 Oct 19 - 03:08 PM
DMcG 29 Oct 19 - 02:26 PM
Jim Carroll 29 Oct 19 - 02:24 PM
Nigel Parsons 29 Oct 19 - 01:01 PM
Iains 29 Oct 19 - 12:10 PM
Dave the Gnome 28 Oct 19 - 02:14 PM
Jim Carroll 28 Oct 19 - 10:38 AM
Jim Carroll 28 Oct 19 - 09:05 AM
Jim Carroll 28 Oct 19 - 04:22 AM
DMcG 28 Oct 19 - 03:56 AM
DMcG 28 Oct 19 - 03:13 AM
Steve Shaw 27 Oct 19 - 06:53 PM
Iains 27 Oct 19 - 03:02 PM
Backwoodsman 27 Oct 19 - 02:21 PM
Dave the Gnome 27 Oct 19 - 08:17 AM
Steve Shaw 27 Oct 19 - 08:00 AM
Backwoodsman 27 Oct 19 - 07:01 AM
Backwoodsman 26 Oct 19 - 02:22 PM
DMcG 26 Oct 19 - 06:01 AM
DMcG 26 Oct 19 - 05:40 AM
Steve Shaw 25 Oct 19 - 03:22 PM
Iains 25 Oct 19 - 10:54 AM
Steve Shaw 25 Oct 19 - 09:12 AM
Steve Shaw 25 Oct 19 - 08:43 AM
Steve Shaw 25 Oct 19 - 07:01 AM
Steve Shaw 25 Oct 19 - 06:59 AM
Dave the Gnome 25 Oct 19 - 05:54 AM
Iains 25 Oct 19 - 04:02 AM
DMcG 25 Oct 19 - 02:27 AM
Steve Shaw 24 Oct 19 - 06:59 PM
Dave the Gnome 24 Oct 19 - 06:35 PM
Nigel Parsons 24 Oct 19 - 06:07 PM
Dave the Gnome 24 Oct 19 - 05:38 PM
Steve Shaw 24 Oct 19 - 04:23 PM
Iains 24 Oct 19 - 03:48 PM
Steve Shaw 24 Oct 19 - 01:46 PM
Raggytash 24 Oct 19 - 01:45 PM
Nigel Parsons 24 Oct 19 - 01:37 PM
Dave the Gnome 24 Oct 19 - 01:23 PM
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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 30 Oct 19 - 11:20 AM

Quite so, Steve. I am sure there were those in New Zealand back in 1893 saying women should not have the vote because other countries did not give it to them.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Oct 19 - 10:51 AM

The right to vote is the most immovable of the tenets of democracy. I sit in front of the telly some nights and hear the vox pops which include people who clearly haven't a clue what they're talking about. It's perfectly obvious that millions of people who voted leave didn't know what they were really voting for. I happily resist the urge to shout out that they don't deserve the vote. Millions of people who don't follow politics at all still vote. This is a matter of principle that has been fought for over centuries. To me, the principle is that I can vote because I live here, pay taxes here, work(ed) here and am affected by government policy. That applies equally to EU citizens who live and work here. There couldn't be much objection to a minimum period of residency of several years and an insistence that they must relinquish the right to vote in another country as well. I'm aware that no other EU country affords such a right. But in my view they should. That's where I am on this. I don't care to be told that I can't propose something more fair and just than what we do now simply because others don't propose it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 30 Oct 19 - 08:12 AM

voting rights for EU citizens is an injustice issue that needs urgent fixing. It won't be fixed, of course, while we have a bunch of eurosceptics running the show. We'll remember that next time we hear Tories burbling on about their concept of "democracy."

It is worth knowing no other EU country offers other EU citizens voting rights in its general elections - as here, locals and European elections yes, general elections, no.”Why should EU citizens in the UK be an exception in Europe?”

No.10 is opposed to the idea of extending the vote to EU nationals on similar grounds and said it would give EU citizens “wider voting rights” than UK nationals.
It seems you advocate creating an injustice.
Fact dear boy, fact!


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Oct 19 - 08:02 AM

"Labour is way ahead among those aged 18 to 34, where student finance looms large, according to Ipsos Mori, although that is more than offset by a clear Conservative lead among the over 55s and a marginal lead among 35- to 54-year-olds. Pledges made to pensioners and older working age voters by both sides will be critical – particularly after the Tory disaster of the dementia tax in 2017."

Why Tories don't want to lower the voting age, despite the solid arguments for it. Why Tories wanted the 12th, not the 9th. Tories, the party of the wrinklies. Brexit, the policy for the wrinklies...

Steve (no Tory but still wrinkly)


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Oct 19 - 07:39 AM

At 16 you can leave school and go into paid employment, when you will be subject to the same income tax regime as everyone else. You can join the army as a soldier at 16. You can marry and have children at 16. I note that the voting age for the Scottish independence referendum was 16. Whilst I support lowering the age to 16, I feel that it's a matter for more "leisurely" debate in Parliament than was possible yesterday. Trying to push it there and then risked putting off the election by months to allow for the bureaucracy of updating electoral registers. That would have been vexatious, though these things are always worth a shot, which at least puts the issue on the agenda for the future, a legitimate ploy in a democracy. I also note that this is an issue that has been pushed more by the SNP than by other parties, though there is wide cross-party support for it.

To me, voting rights for EU citizens is an injustice issue that needs urgent fixing. It won't be fixed, of course, while we have a bunch of eurosceptics running the show. We'll remember that next time we hear Tories burbling on about their concept of "democracy."


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Oct 19 - 06:05 AM

"I don't agree with giving 16/17 year olds the vote. Some of them are level-headed, but have little experience of life. They will still be guided by their teachers."


Well now, let's take a little look at this. Nigel, a Tory, doesn't want 16-year-olds to vote and gives us a vacuous reason as to why not. The real reason that Tories like Nigel don't want 16-year-olds to vote is that they know that 16-year-olds on the whole are very unlikely to vote Tory (what's more, they're far more likely to be remainers). Not only that, but they'd vote in droves because of the sheer novelty of just having been accorded the privilege. Dig into any Tory's expressed viewpoint and you will find self-interest at the core of it. Nigel feels uneasy that 16-year-olds will be under the influence of teachers. Presumably, Nigel thinks that teachers, on the whole, are a scruffy bunch of rabid leftie revolutionaries. So he doesn't trust their influence. Yet he has nothing to say about the influence on voters of the gutter mass media, four-fifths of whom are virulently anti-Corbyn, who routinely reproduce Boris's lies and who routinely mangle news and right-wing sentiment together to propagandise. Well I ask you, who do trust more to have useful and honest influence, the Sun/Daily Mail (try Richard Littlejohn some time), or a body of qualified, professional, carefully-selected teachers who are subjected to constant appraisal?

There's definitely a debate to be had about what the voting age should be. Personally, I'm in favour of lowering it, but I sort of agreed that trying to bring it in yesterday would have appeared to be vexatious. What I vehemently disagree with is that EU citizens who live, work and pay taxes here shouldn't be allowed the vote. That's an outrageous injustice in m'humble and I would have liked to see that one discussed. Had it been a successful amendment it would have severely delayed the election, but in my view that would have been justified. Again, of course, one expects that most of the 3.4 million would not be Tory voters...


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 30 Oct 19 - 03:19 AM

since all the most experienced election analysts ar ed saying this is the most unpredictable election ever, I am not foolhardy enough to give a detailed prediction. But at a broad level Johnson will do well if he can keep the focus on Brexit and fight off both Farage and the consequences of all the hostages to fortune quotes he, Patel and Raab have made in the last few years. The other parties will not forget about the WAB either and could pull some tricky stuff out of that. But, as I say, keep it on Brexit and avoid the detail and Johnson will do well.

Get onto all the other things in life and the problems for them become apparent. The simplest rejoinder to all the wonderful things promises in the Queen's speech for Labour heartlands is "When did you ever know the Tories to do any of that?"


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 29 Oct 19 - 05:35 PM

So Corbyn and his fellow turkeys have finally voted for christmas.
This will go down in history as the great cull. Will Labour be both roasted and basted? They obviously do not require the provision of a rotisserie - they are well used to spinning!
All we need now is the Lords to attempt to frustrate the election by attaching further amendments. Boris will have a busy time ahead!
If I had my way I would:
increase the voting age to 25
Ban postal votes to all but the infirm, service personnel and students.
Students voting in university towns skew the vote.
I would insist they vote only in their home constituency.
I would also insist that those wishing to vote provide ID to be checked against the electoral roll before being allowed to. participate
Provision of foreign observers to ensure no voting irregularities.

Has anyone informed Putin so he can arrange interference?

Another bit of superb news is that 47 of the swamp rats are standing down including the squeaker.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 29 Oct 19 - 04:43 PM

No "deal" has gone through, Stanron. Johnson pulled the further debate on it before it was approved and with the election all incomplete bills fall.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Oct 19 - 04:02 PM

" how did they live?""
It's been agreed to in principle - it's a long way from having gone through
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Stanron
Date: 29 Oct 19 - 03:34 PM

Backwoodsman wrote: Living in the past seems to be a Thing with the Brexit-Bunch.
Since the 'Deal' has now gone through, surely it's the remainers who are living in the past.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 29 Oct 19 - 03:08 PM

Living in the past seems to be a Thing with the Brexit-Bunch.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 29 Oct 19 - 02:26 PM

Since the 16/17 amendment has not been considered, this is a little academic. But of course there are degrees of adulthood - just look at the age of consent compared to the age where you can get a provisional licence to getting a full licence. Almost every society recognises there is a gradual transition to become a fully developed adult. The exceptions are those where there is some ceremony, often religious in nature, which define crossing from one stage to another.

As for only voting if you pay taxes, I can't think this is a fully developed idea, Nigel. Maybe a gut feel, but let's just take one real life example. My wife is too young to claim state pension, and has not drawn her pension from work, but retired some three years ago. Sounds like you would rule she has no vote. Then let's try a thought experiment. Two people on zero hour contracts earning very little. Jack is under the tax threshold, so no tax, but Jill paid £1 over the entire year, so you are happy for Jill to vote but not Jack? Or do you want to set a threshold - so you have to be rich enough to vote?   

And then why not more votes if you pay more taxes?   After all, the logic seems to be those who contribute taxes are the only ones with a vote, so more votes for more taxes just takes that a step further.

Sounds like you want to get back before the Great Reform Acts in some ways.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Oct 19 - 02:24 PM

"but have little experience of life. They will still be guided by their teachers."
You mean the teachers can't be trusted ?
Interesting insight to a conservative's view of British education
Roll on the day the Prime Minister can appoint all our teachers eh, Nigel
I thought it was only Communist countries who sought to control the minds of the young (and teh Church, of course)
"curioser and curioser" as Alice was once heard to remark
"not be out earning their keep "
Heah, 'bout time those lazy bastards drawing the dole had the vote taken away too
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 29 Oct 19 - 01:01 PM

I don't agree with giving 16/17 year olds the vote. Some of them are level-headed, but have little experience of life. They will still be guided by their teachers.
As the school leaving age has been increased they will not be out earning their keep (generally speaking).
Just as American colonists believed in "No taxation without representation" I believe there should be no representation without taxation. (with certain caveats for those who, due to age/infirmity, are unable to work)


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 29 Oct 19 - 12:10 PM

Interesting that Labour want to give the vote to 16/17 year olds. It would follow on that if adult enough to vote, then also old enough to be tried as an adult, go in a bar, and serve on the front line. Or are there degrees of adulthood?
In a similar vein certain luvvies have been advocating withdrawing the vote from those of 70+ years. That would thin out the ranks of the "righteous" that bombast their way along on this thread.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 28 Oct 19 - 02:14 PM

We should have realised what BoJo was when he was running for PM. The anagram of dead in a ditch is candidate hid.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Oct 19 - 10:38 AM

Should have said - the Brexit extension has now been put back to 31st January
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Oct 19 - 09:05 AM

New word in the Brexit Dictionary (Brixionary maybe?) FLEXTENSION
Wonder if Johnson's chosen which ditch to be found dead in yet?
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Oct 19 - 04:22 AM

" Blair is saying we will just have to make the best of it"
Blair is a Tory in drag and doesn't speak for anybody but the sell-out has-beens that sold out the Labour Party
Kate Hooey is typical of Blair's sell-out mob - anyone prepared to share a campaign with Reichstagmeister Robinson is unworthy of serious consideration
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 28 Oct 19 - 03:56 AM

Incidentally, over on one of the media's Have Your Say areas, a Brexiteer was arguing that if the Government chose to change things so that people had no leave entitlement at all, it should be able to - it was nothing to do with the EU. While I do not agree, there is a refreshing honesty to that that is usually lacking. And is certainly lacking in the Government's stance that such a thing could never come about by any government ever.

(Some may argue that because such a Government would be going against what people wanted. These are by and large the same people saying Parliament is defying their 'will' at the moment)


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 28 Oct 19 - 03:13 AM

This is an example of one of the great falsehoods of Brexit. I must have heard that Remainers do not accept the result of the Referendum a thousand times. But by and large we do. We think it mistaken and if the opportunity did arise we would try to reverse it, but almost all of us accept we are leaving at some time in some fashion. And, as we are patriotic (whether you agree of not), we want to do that with the least damage to the country, its businesses and its citizens as we can. Where we differ most from Brexiteers is how that is achieved. To take the question of workers rights: Johnson's team is reported to be pleased it has removed those from the legally binding section into that part that is not. You get ministers arguing that they have no intention of reducing workers rights and indeed in the Queen's speech proclaimed they would improve them. That is irrelevant. They have made it possible that *some* future government could slash them. Whether they 'intend' to or not is mere sleight of hand.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Oct 19 - 06:53 PM

Well I wouldn't normally recommend that anyone should resort to the far-right Daily Express (way back in the sixties my dad called it the Daily Liar), but Blair is saying we will just have to make the best of it if we do end up leaving the EU, which is, as even that article makes clear, the last thing he wants. He sez that it would be like a top-six Premier League team suddenly being relegated to the Championship (the old Division Two to you non-footie types). Don't be misled. Put a clothes peg on your nose, read the Express piece for yourself and see what Blair ACTUALLY said. Then we can properly talk about it, if we want to.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 27 Oct 19 - 03:02 PM

Tony Blair stuns Remainers after admitting British trade deals will flourish outside EU
FORMER Prime Minister Tony Blair has stunned his fellow Remainers by admitting that the British economy will continue to flourish even after Brexit - and even urging Remainers to "make the best of it".
By Oli Smith (so it must be correct)


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 27 Oct 19 - 02:21 PM

And a very truthful warning in the Times today from The Archbishop of Canterbury, warning our unelected Prime Minister that his ‘inflammatory language’ is ‘pouring petrol on Britain’s divisions over Brexit’.

Of course he is - ‘divide and rule’ is a long-time tried-and-trusted tactic of the clueless Right.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 27 Oct 19 - 08:17 AM

Sadly if there is rot right at the top it will continue to spread downwards until it is removed. The sooner that Johnson here and Trump over in the States are brought to task over their misdeeds, the better.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Oct 19 - 08:00 AM

Absolute required reading, John. I'd love to see any brexiteer here attempting to dissect that piece and refuting any part of it. As ever, we can expect a different approach.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 27 Oct 19 - 07:01 AM

There’s a very interesting piece in today’s Guardian, regarding the undermining of our politics by Johnson’s chicanery.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 26 Oct 19 - 02:22 PM

What was all that bollocks about ‘Take Back Control’ the Brexit-Bunch kept waffling on about during the Referendum...??


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 26 Oct 19 - 06:01 AM

Anguilla was discussed in Parliament at some length back in early 2017, I think. It has specific problems. There is no airport on the island, so it has 'piggy-backed' off Princess Julianna International Airport, in Sint Maarten, which is in the territory of the Netherlands. It then crosses a border into French Saint Martin. (There is an airport on the French side of the island, in the French Collectivity of Saint Martin, called Aéroport de Grand Case or L'Espérance Airport, but this is used for regional flights.)

From there, goods are transported by ship to Anguilla itself, so it will be crossing a second border.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 26 Oct 19 - 05:40 AM

AS I think most of you know, I try to read through as many of the relevant documents as I can, rather than base my views on comments from intermediaries. So I am working my way through Johnson's version of the Withdrawal Agreement.

It is not easy, as it is forever referring to other documents, like this:
With regard to nationals of third countries who fulfil the conditions of Regulation (EC) No 859/2003, as well as their family members or survivors within the scope of this Title, the references to Regulation (EC) No 883/2004 and Regulation (EC) No 987/2009 in this Title shall be understood as references to Council Regulation (EEC) No 1408/711 and Council Regulation (EEC) No 574/722 respectively. References to specific provisions of Regulation (EC) No 883/2004 and Regulation (EC) No 987/2009 shall be understood as references to the corresponding provisions of Regulation (EEC) No 1408/71 and Regulation (EEC) No 574/72

Well, yes, I thought so too …

Anyway, I am far from through it. But it is worth pointing out that Northern Ireland is far from the only place where special considerations apply. It lists :

Anguilla, Bermuda, British Antarctic Territory, British Indian Ocean Territory, British Virgin Islands, Cayman Islands, Falkland Islands, Montserrat, Pitcairn, Saint Helena, Ascension and Tristan da Cunha, South Georgia and the South Sandwich Islands, and Turks and Caicos Islands.


Article 18 - which is as far as I had got before deciding to post this - is talking about the 'Issuance of residence document', which is of course central in many respects: having a right of residence unlocks lots of other rights. This looks to me a Windrush scandal in the making, specifying as it does some of the documents needed to convince the authorities you have a right of residence. For example:


for cases other than those set out in points (k), (l) and (m), the host State shall not require applicants to present supporting documents that go beyond what is strictly necessary and proportionate to provide evidence that the conditions relating to the right of residence under this Title have been fulfilled;

Warm words, but who decides whether requiring a particular document goes beyond 'what is strictly necessary'?


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Oct 19 - 03:22 PM

To those deluded people who think that Labour's brexit policy still isn't crystal clear (which it is), get a load of this, all from stressed-out Tories (and from today's Guardian):

"Even Conservative supporters of Johnson remained baffled on Friday by the prime minister’s sudden U-turn on his Brexit deal earlier in the week, when he decided to pause it rather than allow more time to debate the legislation.

One minister told the Guardian that the views among colleagues was 'No 10 has been churlish', while a backbench MP said the strategy emerging from Downing Street was “very confused' and 'out of control'.

Keith Simpson, Conservative MP for Broadland, described the 'floundering in No 10 as worthy of Baldrick in Blackadder', adding: 'The problem is that circumstances beyond [Boris Johnson’s] control and things he has done has made October 31 almost impossible and I think what he’s decided to do – supported by most, but not all of the cabinet – of trying to have a vote on a general election looks as though it’s part of the people versus parliament but I think it’s quite a risky strategy.'"


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 25 Oct 19 - 10:54 AM

The latest tactic is to make magic grandad repeatedly refuse an election. It is quite a cunning ruse. Each time he refuses Labour haemorrhages more support from it's heartlands.
Macron is not too happy about yet another extension and conservatives are leading in the polls.
Whenever this impasse is resolved Labour will be eviscerated.

Of course as we come up to the wire we may yet find the Ben act suffers a fatal flaw(after all it was rushed through without any attention to detail) Yet remainiacs argue that after three years they still need time to study the withdrawal treaty(brino)
Will they rue the day and be hoist with their own petard, or do we need another Guy Fawkes? Interesting times!


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Oct 19 - 09:12 AM

It looks like Johnson is even making some Tories nervous with his dishonest election gambit. From the Guardian (who don't name their source):

An MP from the centre of the parliamentary [Conservative] party said the move was a “smoke and mirrors” trap that was meant to fail and anticipated that Labour would reject an election. However, it could easily backfire with some liberal voters, the MP said.

“This latest move is not intended to be a successful bid for an election. If it was going to be successful, at least 30 of my colleagues would vote against it,” the MP added. “I worry that the public will look at the government and say, 'Why on earth are they farting about and trying to ruin my Christmas with an election when they have just won a vote on the Brexit bill? Where have they found these six weeks for an election when they don’t have time to discuss Brexit legislation?’

“The miscalculation here is that the PM might be popular, but he is not trusted. And this manoeuvre, if the public don’t buy it as genuine, might reinforce the impression that he is sneaky, untrustworthy and too clever by half.”


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Oct 19 - 08:43 AM

From the Guardian live blog:

"Some MPs have expressed concern that once Parliament has been dissolved, the Prime Minister could postpone the election date until after the end of the Brexit extension period, at which point the UK would leave the EU with nothing MPs could do to prevent it."

I note that the LibDems don't seem as keen on a snap election as I'd said earlier on. The obstinate possibility of no-deal, combined with the utter untrustworthiness of Johnson, is a powerful and sobering mix. His attempt to bully MPs into consenting to an election is utterly pointless. We need a general election, not a brexit election. We won't get that until brexit is resolved one way or the other.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Oct 19 - 07:01 AM

...the most responsible one. Fat finger syndrome.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Oct 19 - 06:59 AM

Excellent leader in The Guardian. Extracts:

Boris Johnson is the playground bully of British politics. He acts as if he is prime minister with a majority in parliament when in fact he has no majority. Because he cannot govern in that way with parliament, he has tried instead to govern against parliament. The delusion that he can do as he pleases led him to try to prorogue parliament this autumn – a bluff that was called by the supreme court. It then led him to concoct a fantasy legislative agenda by commissioning a Queen’s speech, though none of its measures will ever become law. Now he is trying to make his Brexit withdrawal bill conditional on the Commons agreeing to a general election in December. This proposal, like all the others before it, is merely another bluff, and parliament should duly call it...

...Mr Johnson’s Thursday gambit should not be accepted. There is no pressing need for a general election until parliament has resolved its position on Brexit, if necessary by amending the withdrawal agreement bill. That may be only a few sitting days away. But Mr Johnson has absolutely no right to hold a gun to parliament’s head in the meantime. It is for parliament, as a whole, to make a decision about a general election once the core business of this parliament, Brexit, is completed. That time is not now. MPs should insist on doing first things first.


And Corbyn is the one leader who is insisting that there must be no chance of no-deal before consent is given for an election. The SNP have their own agenda. They want an election now if not sooner because they know that they'll wipe out the Tories in Scotland and that brexit will strengthen their hand in getting an independence referendum. The LibDems want an election because they calculate that they'll get more seats than last time and will probably hold the balance of power. In my view, Labour's position is by far the. OST responsible one.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 25 Oct 19 - 05:54 AM

Funny how Corbyn can be worse than useless and manage to destroy the plans of the greased albino piglet at the same time.

I am happy with his plans to negotiate a deal and then put the final decision on its acceptability to the country. Not sure about his moving towards PR. Do we really want a permanent hung parliament with the kind of populist nutters we have seen of late having any say in the real world?


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 25 Oct 19 - 04:02 AM

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7611391/Violence-against-MPs-price-worth-paying-way-Brexit-say-majority-sides.html

Patience is evaporating on both sides of the divide.
I blame it on magic grandad, his only policy is prevarication. He does not have a policy on brexit. Even internal labour documents admit he will lose 100 seats in an election.

An election is coming , the turkeys are getting fat
Let's have a voting slip and make remainiacs scat
..............


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 25 Oct 19 - 02:27 AM

"Mr Johnson offered to allow MPs extra time to debate and ratify his Brexit deal by 6 November if they approved the UK’s first December election in almost 100 years. But aides said he would pull the Withdrawal Agreement Bill altogether if they refuse."

Once again, the 'master strategy' is painful in its simplicity. If there is no GE, the Government will pull the bill and so there will be no Brexit debate until - let us suppose - the end of January. Faced with determined inaction, they hope the EU will decide there is no value in another extension and we get to 'no deal'. Not on 31st October, of course, but I am sure Nigel and co will find a way of saying that is compatible with Johnson's promises.

This relies on Parliament being unable to take control again via an SO24 or similar, and that relies on who is Speaker. If Bercow found a way of staying on, there would definitely be SO24s permitted. It is not so clear how the alternatives would behave.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Oct 19 - 06:59 PM

Thank you, Dave! It seems that you and I I agree that we don't need to bother with either the vexatious or the trolls...


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 24 Oct 19 - 06:35 PM

Nigel, when the only arguments you can come up with are on semantics it is obvious that your arsenal is depleted. Everyone else understands what Steve is on about. Your antics are both boring and trite.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 24 Oct 19 - 06:07 PM

From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Oct 19 - 01:46 PM

I don't like to be called a liar if you don't mind.

A second request from me to read my posts properly. Perhaps you'll take note of the words surrounding your quoted bit and take them as context. 'Nuff from me on this. Either contribute to the conversation, which you've hardly been doing at all, or just butt out, Nigel.


I read your comments (as quoted) within the context in which you gave them. They are clearly contradictory.
I did not call you a liar. I asked Is Steve Shaw just ignorant of the statements he's making? Or is he just a serial liar?
I will accept that you're just ignorant, although you have previously admitted to being a liar.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 24 Oct 19 - 05:38 PM

Just watching the local news. A Dewsbury councillor's home has been targeted in a firebomb attack. Luckily only the cars were torched and no one was hurt. He is a Labour councillor of Asian ethnicity. Any bets being taken on the motive?


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Oct 19 - 04:23 PM

Let's move on here, Raggytash. Let's talk to people who actually have something to say!


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 24 Oct 19 - 03:48 PM

We can only go by what you say. It is up to you to make sure the words you use say what you mean!


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Oct 19 - 01:46 PM

I don't like to be called a liar if you don't mind.

A second request from me to read my posts properly. Perhaps you'll take note of the words surrounding your quoted bit and take them as context. 'Nuff from me on this. Either contribute to the conversation, which you've hardly been doing at all, or just butt out, Nigel.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 24 Oct 19 - 01:45 PM

Nigel, stop buggering about. Laws bind a government until such time as they change the law.

Until that point they are bound by the law.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 24 Oct 19 - 01:37 PM

Nothing I've said has contradicted other things I've said.

Motions can't bind a future government but laws can

I'm perfectly aware that parliament can overturn laws made by previous administrations.

Is Steve Shaw just ignorant of the statements he's making? Or is he just a serial liar?


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 24 Oct 19 - 01:23 PM

I agree DMcG. Labour should hold until all the shit is firmly on the shoulders of the serial liar known as BoJo.


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