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BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?

DMcG 02 Sep 19 - 11:56 AM
DMcG 02 Sep 19 - 11:41 AM
peteaberdeen 02 Sep 19 - 11:31 AM
Steve Shaw 02 Sep 19 - 09:41 AM
DMcG 02 Sep 19 - 09:25 AM
Jim Carroll 02 Sep 19 - 09:24 AM
Steve Shaw 02 Sep 19 - 09:04 AM
Iains 02 Sep 19 - 08:59 AM
Steve Shaw 02 Sep 19 - 08:39 AM
Jim Carroll 02 Sep 19 - 08:23 AM
DMcG 02 Sep 19 - 08:13 AM
Iains 02 Sep 19 - 08:00 AM
Steve Shaw 02 Sep 19 - 07:44 AM
Jim Carroll 02 Sep 19 - 07:35 AM
DMcG 02 Sep 19 - 07:11 AM
Iains 02 Sep 19 - 07:09 AM
DMcG 02 Sep 19 - 06:15 AM
Jim Carroll 02 Sep 19 - 06:08 AM
Steve Shaw 02 Sep 19 - 05:47 AM
Backwoodsman 02 Sep 19 - 05:21 AM
Steve Shaw 02 Sep 19 - 05:11 AM
Dave the Gnome 02 Sep 19 - 05:10 AM
Jim Carroll 02 Sep 19 - 05:01 AM
Raggytash 02 Sep 19 - 04:54 AM
DMcG 02 Sep 19 - 04:42 AM
DMcG 02 Sep 19 - 04:17 AM
Iains 02 Sep 19 - 03:49 AM
Dave the Gnome 02 Sep 19 - 03:45 AM
DMcG 02 Sep 19 - 03:20 AM
Jim Carroll 02 Sep 19 - 03:11 AM
Backwoodsman 02 Sep 19 - 02:11 AM
Backwoodsman 02 Sep 19 - 01:08 AM
Steve Shaw 01 Sep 19 - 08:28 PM
Steve Shaw 01 Sep 19 - 08:10 PM
Steve Shaw 01 Sep 19 - 08:06 PM
Nigel Parsons 01 Sep 19 - 07:25 PM
Iains 01 Sep 19 - 04:45 PM
Jim Carroll 01 Sep 19 - 03:08 PM
Steve Shaw 01 Sep 19 - 02:48 PM
Raggytash 01 Sep 19 - 02:23 PM
Steve Shaw 01 Sep 19 - 02:23 PM
Iains 01 Sep 19 - 01:25 PM
Jim Carroll 01 Sep 19 - 01:09 PM
Jim Carroll 01 Sep 19 - 12:54 PM
DMcG 01 Sep 19 - 12:43 PM
SPB-Cooperator 01 Sep 19 - 12:35 PM
Iains 01 Sep 19 - 12:29 PM
DMcG 01 Sep 19 - 12:28 PM
Jim Carroll 01 Sep 19 - 12:21 PM
DMcG 01 Sep 19 - 12:04 PM
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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 02 Sep 19 - 11:56 AM

I was just asked a question by my wife that I really don't know the answer to - not for the first time, of course.

If an election were called, would there by any significant change in NI parties?

I suspect each individual's vote is sufficiently tied up with other matters that it would not, but that really is guesswork. But if the DUP was also weakened, it might be significant.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 02 Sep 19 - 11:41 AM

I would quite like Starmer, but I read today that the Corbynista (whoever they are) see Rebbecca Long-Bailey as the natural successor. Not for me, thanks.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: peteaberdeen
Date: 02 Sep 19 - 11:31 AM

while many of us are furious at the suggestion that our children should work until 75 , am i right in thinking that jeremy corbyn is about 70....so would be a prime minister at75 if he won an election shortly. sorry, just too old - show a bit of solidarity jez. you've done a great job and i will always support our manifesto- but need to stand down in the national interest. i note it's keir starmer's birthday (57) today - many happy returns.

i don't feel good about this, or the fact that we are almost relying on the emergence of tories with a bit of a conscience and intelligence. but it's hard times in old england


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Sep 19 - 09:41 AM

I'm fearing the worst. Though I do wonder what would happen if (a) all the Scottish Tories lost their seats, (b) a considerable number of Tory "rebels" stood as independents and won their seats, as some undoubtedly would, (c) there was significant LibDem resurgence, which I'd also expect. One thing I'm not particularly scared of is Farage and his bunch of eejits. They'll get votes but not seats, and they'll take votes off both big parties.

We'd need a progressive coalition that takes seriously the prospect of brexit not happening at all. Complicated for Labour, but these are times of crisis...

Or am I clutching at straws...

Or am I beginning to sound like Polly Toynbee...


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 02 Sep 19 - 09:25 AM

As Elephant Traps go, this one is unusual in that it comes with flashing lights, huge arrows and klaxons.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Sep 19 - 09:24 AM

You've gorra larf at all this or you'll end up as psychotic as y.n.w.
Wonderful cartoon in the bumwipe press over the weekend showing Johnson and Gove barricaded in number 10 with the queen tied to a chair and crowds outside the window - Johnson is screaming through a megaphone "We want free passage to No-Deal or the old lady gets it"

Even Murdoch's Muckrakers don't take this lot seriously
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Sep 19 - 09:04 AM

...Although it transpires that Johnson could make an assurance that any election would take place before October 31. I have a nasty feeling that that would not help Labour at all. The more I think about it, the more I agree with Blair's elephant-trap warning. Unfortunately, Jeremy has made himself a hostage to fortune by repeatedly calling for a general election. I think he'd better start to attach a whole load of conditions to his call.

In the meantime, UK industrial output is falling faster now than at any time in the last seven years...


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 02 Sep 19 - 08:59 AM

An interesting snippet on Constitutional Law/convention that impedes the renegade's plans to force legislation through:

Any Bill that has an impact on the Royal Prerogative requires 'Royal Consent' to even be discussed and debated. This has been withheld on numerious occasions and rightly so. Also any Bill that would lead to public expenditure requires, under standing orders, a money resolution which only the Government can move. The second issue is that of Royal Assent. This is the process by which any Bill becomes Law and is usually a formality.

All grist to the mill!


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Sep 19 - 08:39 AM

Several things. If Johnson gets an election, it's then in his gift to call it for after October 31. That will mean no-deal. Next, Labour is, in my view, is likely to lose an election, either before or after that date. I hear Tony Blair and I share his fears (I don't share much else with him).

The right thing to happen would be an extension to Article 50 until at least several months after an election, giving the new administration time to carry out its stated manifesto policy on brexit, which could mean trying to strike a deal (away from the current frenetic chaos), or to organise another referendum. That would best serve the interests of the country. This administration hasn't got the slightest interest in that, unfortunately, but they have all the best populist tunes.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Sep 19 - 08:23 AM

The chaos in Westminster it almost palpable
Johnson is said to be holding a cabinet meeting (what will be left of them if he goes on the way he is doing) this afternoon on how to deal with Tory rebels (the utter contempt for democracy by calling those who oppose the Prime Minister "Rebels" is the stuff that feeds a dictatorship)
Despite the fact that there was a sectarian riot in Glasgow and three sectarian incidents in Belfast over the weekend, the Northern Ireland Secretary's visit has been cancelled, so the pretence of supporting the province seems to have ridden off into the sunset
Corbyn is supporting te idea of a general election, which is what all this seems to be about anyway
I don't know if Labour can win, but if they can't Britain can forget anything that resembles democracy for some time to come
No wonder Johnsong announced a massive spending on law and order and prisn's - he's going to need it
Never mid - Mike Pence is visiting Ireland this week - maybe he can nip over to London to give them some tips on 'Special Rendition' U.S. style - never know, might come in handy   
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 02 Sep 19 - 08:13 AM

If all this implodes on Johnson he'll call an election which he will almost certainly win

Because of the Fixed Term Parliament Act, Johnson can only do this with Corbyn's support. Unfortunately Corbyn's remarks today suggest he will give it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 02 Sep 19 - 08:00 AM

They must have issued a different prayer book in Gotham!
The treacherous joker


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Sep 19 - 07:44 AM

And there's something else. If all this implodes on Johnson he'll call an election which he will almost certainly win. Then he can do whatever he wants. I have a strong feeling that this is the plan. We are living in a world in which brainless populism holds all the cards.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Sep 19 - 07:35 AM

I was listening to a law expert picking his way through the legal implications of these draconian measures - complicated to say the least, which leads us to hope that the final judgement is not in the hands of people with a Bragenda
I've all but given up on expecting fair play and common sense from Britain any more - The bizzare Johnson, Gove and Cummins Cirque du Soleil is just about the straw that sends UK democracy to destruction
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 02 Sep 19 - 07:11 AM

That is as 'indicated' a dictatorship as it gets

Serious, agreed, but there are stronger indications. The suggestion that if the houses both agree legislation the PM may not recommend royal assent is replacing a '1Megaton' constitutional breach - the Government may defy the law - with a '100Megaton' one - the PM has an effective veto on anything the houses agree. That would of course apply to all Prime Ministers and, for example, amendments to legislation the PM did not like.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 02 Sep 19 - 07:09 AM

A simply spiffing gem from the source of truth GUIDO Fawkes!

Over the last couple of days, Government ministers have avoided answering whether they would allow the Queen to approve to any legislation passed by Parliament designed to prevent Brexit on the 31st. Naturally, Remainers have reacted with outrage…

Back in January a Policy Exchange paper by Sir Stephen Laws QC argued that the executive’s role in approving legislation is fundamental to the UK’s constitution, and passing laws without executive approval upsets the UK’s constitutional order.

Guido can now reveal there is extensive precedent of Governments asking the Queen to not sign legislation they don’t approve. Anti-Brexit spokesman Tony Blair himself used this power on a number of occasions to “quell politically embarrassing backbench rebellions”. Perhaps most notably to block a bill by Tam Dalyell in 1999 that aimed to give MPs a vote on military action against Saddam Hussein.

Going further back, Labour PM Harold Wilson used the Queen’s veto to kill off two “politically embarrassing bills” about peerages and Zimbabwean independence, in 1964 and 1969 respectively

Alastair Campbell has been reacting furiously to Gove’s refusal to commit the government to obeying any law parliament passes; when asked about Blair using the same tactic, he conveniently failed to recall the case…


I see plenty of Remainiac sails, but, alas alack NO WIND

The spads have obviously done all their homework and got gold stars for all their 'sums'.(Unlike the abbaccus)


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 02 Sep 19 - 06:15 AM

Sound good to me DMcG. As long as preventing a no deal doesn't include making a worse deal!

I think the only 'deal' option available is the withdrawal agreement unchanged, with something different in the political declaration. That is the position in my opinion whether it is Johnson or Corbyn negotiating. While it is definitely a great deal worse that the soft Brexit I thought might be negotiated (which would of course be in line with the referendum), it is still a lot better than no deal. And since the declaration is not legally binding, a new government could go in a different direction anyway.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Sep 19 - 06:08 AM

"So what was OK in Tory ranks then isn't going to be OK now. Wow."
Withdrawing the whip is bad enough but banning from standing as a candidate in future elections destroys any claim to democracy that the Tory Party have
Basically it means that the Mps are selected by the Prime Minister on the basis that they support what he wants
That is as 'indicated' a dictatorship as it gets
The mask is now off - Britain is heading for dictatorship status
Cummings will probably be given the job of creating an SS !!
JIm Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Sep 19 - 05:47 AM

From the Guardian website:

Here is a Press Association list of members of the cabinet who have defied the government whip this year - sustaining Philip Hammond’s claim that Boris Johnson is being “staggeringly hypocritical”.

Boris Johnson, prime minister: Voted against Theresa May’s Brexit deal in first two votes

Dominic Raab, foreign secretary: Voted against May’s Brexit deal in first two votes

Priti Patel, home secretary: Voted against May’s Brexit deal in all three votes

Grant Shapps, transport secretary: Voted against May’s Brexit deal in first two votes

Theresa Villiers, environment secretary: Voted against May’s Brexit deal in all three votes

Esther McVey, housing minister: Voted against May’s Brexit deal twice

Amber Rudd, work and pensions secretary: Abstained in vote on ruling out no-deal Brexit in all circumstances in March, despite government MPs being under orders to vote against

Jacob Rees-Mogg, leader of the Commons: Voted against May’s Brexit deal in first two votes


So what was OK in Tory ranks then isn't going to be OK now. Wow.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 02 Sep 19 - 05:21 AM

LOL Steve!

Although I played local league football until I was 30-ish, I’m not a great football fan nowadays. I’m more into cricket and Rugby (both the men’s game and Union!). But, if I had to declare allegiance to a club other than Leeds Utd., it would probably be Liverpool.

Anyway, back to our impending act of National Self-Harm...


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Sep 19 - 05:11 AM

Well, BWM, I think Jurgen is far too inclusive for that. And never forget that Bill Shankly (aka God) was an ardent socialist of the finest kind, and 'twas he who set the Liverpool ethos for ever more!   

Perhaps it would have been more appropriate to refer to Fergie at Man U (or Manure as some Liverpool fans are apt to call them) as the Dominic Cummings of football. Fergie didn't exactly frogmarch his uppity types out of the club, but he was known to throw things around the dressing room in a rage, and he made some of the best footballers persona non grata. Ask Becks, he'd tell you! That's the Boris method, innit...


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 02 Sep 19 - 05:10 AM

Sound good to me DMcG. As long as preventing a no deal doesn't include making a worse deal! I and many others have said from the start that this disaster is completely the fault of the Tories. They got us in it and they should shoulder the responsibility. The only possible benefit I see from brexit is the destruction of the Tory party. They have already tried to shift the blame elsewhere but, if Corbyn is considering what you suggest, the timing should be when they have dug themselves so far into the mire that they can never get out.

Of course getting a good deal with the EU or not leaving at all would be preferable but is that feasible at this stage? Unlike some Tories, who would prefer to see their own party in ruins to not leaving, I believe that those who really do value parliamentary democracy would be quite forgiving of anyone who could sort out this shambles to the benefit of the whole population.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Sep 19 - 05:01 AM

Hitler gone viral
Johnson has threatened to withdraw the whip from all Tory MPs who vote against him and ban them from standing in future elections

Headlines in today's Times
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 02 Sep 19 - 04:54 AM

From a post of the 9th August:

"I am all for a second referendum,but subject to the same constraints others have argued for on this forum. It will not alter Brexit unless remainers achieve a majority greater than 65% of the vote."

From a post today:

"Terrible things facts. By every metric remainers lost the referendum.It only needed a one vote majority for the valiant brexiteers to win."

Compare and contrast!!


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 02 Sep 19 - 04:42 AM

I should have said that is my speech if we do not have a agreed GNU ready and waiting in the wings that we could deploy immediately. In that situation my speech would be different, but I don't think that is ready at the moment.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 02 Sep 19 - 04:17 AM

Amusing myself by writing a draft speech for Corbyn if Boris calls for a vote of no confidence. This is what I would say. Of course, he may take a different tack entirely.

Mr Speaker:
Labour has been clear that it will do everything it can to prevent a no-deal. We have also been clear that we will call for a vote of no confidence at a time of our choosing.

The Prime Minister has been equally clear that he would pick the date of a general election after October 31st which would ensure we have left by that date. As Parliament would not be sitting, that would be a no-deal exit, because we would be unable to vote for any other deal. Because we are committed to preventing no-deal, we cannot agree to that. For that reason, we will call for a vote of no confidence at a time of our choosing, but we will not support one today.

Some will argue that by not declaring no confidence today we will make a no deal more likely. I would answer that any responsibility for a no deal lies with the Prime Minister - we will not absolve him of that. He has the authority to bring back a deal to this house and has declared many times he will do so. We give him that choice. The choice is also with him to recommend the House revokes Article 50: that option is always available to him to prevent a no deal if he wished to take it. We give him that choice. We have heard talk that he wants to run an election saying Parliament is preventing him from negotiating a deal: we choose not to prevent him negotiating.

Mr Speaker, I can confirm once again that Labour will call a Vote of No Confidence at a time of our choosing. Today is not that day.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 02 Sep 19 - 03:49 AM

Terrible things facts. By every metric remainers lost the referendum.
It only needed a one vote majority for the valiant brexiteers to win. They gained in excess of a million.
    The only reason the rebels in Parliament are acting the way they are is because they know they have no mandate from the people. It is the people who have sovereignty and elect MPs to represent them.
    That these rebels do not go to the people to firmly establish their mandate is very telling. They know they will not only lose,but lose their cosy sinecures as well. That tells one all that is needed about the "calibre" of these destroyers of democracy.
   Both they and the partisan speaker are on the brink of replacement.
Time to suspend him while those bullying allegations are investigated doncha think?
There are many ways of skinning a cat.

A question for the screeching minority.

WHY are you scared to obtain a fresh mandate from the people by way of a no confidence vote and General Election?
I will answer it for you. It is because you losers would resoundingly lose again and again ahd again.Remember Farage and his Brexit party cleaned up in the EU elections. He has had no chance to field his popular party in the UK yet, and you are scared of him!(Cue drivelling abuse)
Go on make my day. PROVE ME WRONG!


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 02 Sep 19 - 03:45 AM

Love the last link, BWM. Sums up what is happening perfectly :-D


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 02 Sep 19 - 03:20 AM

Irish border after Brexit – all ideas are beset by issues says secret paper


A report summarising the findings of the government’s official “alternative arrangements” working groups concluded that there are issues with all the scenarios put forward to try to replace the backstop arrangement. There are also specific concerns over whether any technological solution could be delivered to monitor cross-border trade.
Critics said the paper, seen by the Guardian, should “ring alarm bells” across government over how likely it is that alternative arrangements to the backstop will be found.
The dossier marked “official-sensitive” prepared for the EU Exit Negotiations Board is dated 28 August. It details how the findings of all advisory groups informing the government on the Northern Irish border are being kept deliberately under wraps to try to avoid hampering Britain’s intended renegotiation of the backstop agreed to by Theresa May.


I don't think that will come as a surprise to anyone who bothered to read the 272 page report and subject it to any kind of critique.

I have said elsewhere - not necessarily in these threads - that *every* border by definition does two things

a) It permits something which meets certain rules to pass.
b) It prevents things that don't meet those rules from passing.

This is basic stuff, surely. Yet the whole 272 page report concentrates of the first of these - trusted trader schemes, anyone - and virtually ignores the second. Indeed at one point it admits the second may get worse than it is now, but offers the opinion it won't.

Again basic stuff: opinions are not mechanisms.

In any case, the essence of the reasons why they think it won't rely on things that the US paper on thier trading objectives wants removed as part of any trade deal.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Sep 19 - 03:11 AM

Nigel has said he has deliberately avoided this discussion - I think if I was in his position and defending the events he needs too defend,, I might have decided to do the same
I see little point in antagonising him now he has returned - we need a far more intelligent input from Brexit supporters thna we have had so far, God knows
Talking about other posters gets threads closed - back to our muttons

Haven't been out for the paper, are the tanks rolling up Whitehall yet !!
Any minute now; Johnson's only got till tomorrow
SPAD = 'Secretly Promoted and Authorised Doorkeeper' from his behaviour and that of those who allow him to act as the thug Cummings obviously is - Germany's 'New Order' was riddled with them
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 02 Sep 19 - 02:11 AM

And some news of yet more Proroguing proposals...any views, Steve? ;-)


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 02 Sep 19 - 01:08 AM

Not only should everyone not speak to YKW, neither should they speak about him. Any reference to him can be construed by both YKW, and the powers that be, as ‘provocation’ and can be used to justify his school-playground behaviour.

Blank him completely. That is the only way to demonstrate who the real Problem Poster is - otherwise, everyone who participates becomes a ‘bastard’ in the eyes of ‘Them Upstairs’.

You know it makes sense.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 Sep 19 - 08:28 PM

We've been trying hard to blank you-know-who, SPB, and it's working. Worth remembering that only a handful of people ever read his posts. And I for one am not one of them any more. Let's keep the thread going!


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 Sep 19 - 08:10 PM

We can handle him, SPB. We've been doing really well at handling forum nuisances this last couple of weeks. Keep your cool, don't react, and just watch as they get ever more shrill and neurotic.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 Sep 19 - 08:06 PM

Ah, good to see you, Nigel. Not so good that you ignore the fact that, along with several other contributors with whom you disagree, I try to argue the substance of the issue. A hint, Nigel: you are quick to criticise, but you will be ultimately be judged by those who you choose NOT to criticise, and there's one egregious example here about whom you are oddly silent......

That's how it is round here. Raggy and I don't agree about our approach to poor Iains. Jim and I disagree about referendums, and I'm sure Jim won't mind if I tell you that he's even suggested that we start a "referendum" thread so that he and I can scrap. It might happen if I can muster the energy. BWM has told me to eff off on a number of occasions and pfr and I commonly adopt different and incompatible perspectives. But you, as a right-winger, attempt to single out us lefties, one at a time, for your nitpicking negative attacks. We call that tribalism, Nigel. I know that Liverpool FC is the greatest team on earth, always was, always will be, and that Man U stink. I'm a unashamed footie tribalist. But on the matter of brexit my only focus is on what's best for this country. I don't expect anyone to agree about my take. But I put my case, and have done over many posts. It takes effort. You should try that approach yourself some time. We've seen very little of it from you so far. The nitpicking thing with you can look like a joke. But it's your main modus operandi, unfortunately. Perhaps you use it as compensation for the fact that you can't actually debate. Now there's a challenge for you. Prove me wrong.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 01 Sep 19 - 07:25 PM

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw - PM
Date: 01 Sep 19 - 02:23 PM

"At the risk of being a bit Nigelly..."

The word you're looking for is "Nigelliferous." Hope you don't mind the nitpicking. :-)



As opposed to "Steve Shaw inventions"

I have had very little input into this debate recently. But Steve Shaw talks a load of crap, and expects everyone to accept his prognostications.

He is even willing to attack my comments, with no explanation why, just to make a general comment. Moderators, please take note!


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 01 Sep 19 - 04:45 PM

The most outrageous of the unelected rabble is Dominic Cummings - a tee-shirt wearing thug with the power to dismiss the staff of elected ministers
Fuckibg outraueous


As a point of accuracy I need to point out the "unelected rabble" you refer to is the legally constituted government. A contradiction in terms, doncha think?

Dominic Cummings is a spad. That means he is an appointee, not elected.
He is the 'mad eye Moody' of the Tories, an 'auror' teaching defense against the dark arts of the coup plotting rabble hell bent on defying the sovereignty of the people.

A very useful laddie to have onside judging by the resultant squealing coming from the losers.

(When the swearing and insults start you know they have lost the argument and incoherent rage takes over.) Tickety tock. time and tide waits for no man!

Now! What about that no confidence vote? Dammed if you do, dammed if you don't.
Verily I say to you, a true popcorn moment.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Sep 19 - 03:08 PM

The most outrageous of the unelected rabble is Dominic Cummings - a tee-shirt wearing thug with the power to dismiss the staff of elected ministers
Fuckibg outraueous
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 Sep 19 - 02:48 PM

If you want to talk about unelected rabble (I'd rather not), well there's our unelected prime minister in charge of a minority government (unelected by the electorate) which is being run behind the scenes by an unelected bully of a special adviser in Number Ten. This unelected bunch are so arrogant that they believe they have some sort of "mandate." Let's hope they get put right this week.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Raggytash
Date: 01 Sep 19 - 02:23 PM

Just a note, an "unelected rabble" are in fact elected Member of Parliament.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 Sep 19 - 02:23 PM

"At the risk of being a bit Nigelly..."

The word you're looking for is "Nigelliferous." Hope you don't mind the nitpicking. :-)


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 01 Sep 19 - 01:25 PM

Just to point out the obvious, Gove was saying they might not abide by the law EVEN IF HAD ROYAL ASSENT.

At the risk of being a pedant the word legislation was used by Gove. It is not law until passed by both houses and given Royal Assent

"Following the Royal Assent, the Act of Parliament will usually come into force at midnight of that date. However, there has been a growing trend for Acts of Parliament not to come into force immediately. Instead the Act itself either states the date when it will commence, or the Act passes responsibility to the appropriate minister to fix the date when the Act will come into force. In the latter case the minister will bring the Act into force by issuing a commencement order."

Legislation is not law until given royal assent. You have the cart before the horse- This is most remiss of you.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Sep 19 - 01:09 PM

Irish news headlines lead with "British Minister refuses to say whether or not he and his boss are prepared to abide by Parliamentary decisions - I think the "we'll see what they are - we're not buying a pig-in--a-poke" curled the newsreader up somewhat
Someone locally referred to Brexit as "Ireland's revenge for Bernard Manning" the other day - went into my repertoire immediately
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Sep 19 - 12:54 PM

I agree entirely with SBP
I think that, if anything, this long-running farce has dropped all pretence of a democracy that gets in the way of the personal interests of the great and the good in our society
The veneer seems to have rubbed so thin as to be non-existent
Any politician (or businessman, for that matter) who can claim to be helping Britain to "stand on her own two feet" and then miss off and put his money into Singapore or European Ireland have to be mentally deficient (or think we are) to believe they will be taken seriously (as shown by those who defend it here)
This is the level of contempt in which we are regarded
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 01 Sep 19 - 12:43 PM

I have no difficulty imagine a party political broadcast in say December:

Aerial shot: Lorry queues at Dover

Cut to Raab: I did not appreciate the importance of Dover

Cut to: reports of medical shortages

Cut to Boris - it's just a bump in the road.

Cut to: Depleted shelves in a supermarket

Cut to: Gove - its just a bump in the road

Cut to: Report of Some Major Factory shutting

Cut to: Boris - a bump in the road.


=====
Not all of those scenes may happen, but I feel confident an equivalent can be found. If I were Labour and only concerned with maximising my electoral chances, I would not push for a vote of no confidence until late November or December. Keep all the focus on legislative means to prevent no deal at this stage.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 01 Sep 19 - 12:35 PM

If the government ignores the law, then the entire UK MUST also be exempt form all UK laws and the prisons must release every prisoner anything else is hypocrisy. The UK is a cesspit and everyone who voted Tory has made it so.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 01 Sep 19 - 12:29 PM

I would have thought ignoring a law of Parliament would be contempt of Parliament, which has punishments that could extent to imprisonment, even for an MP. Nothing seems to exclude that MP being a PM that I have read so far.

I wonder why a vote of no confidence is not called?

Too many MPs scared to put their money where their mouth is? I am sure the game plan is to force a General Election, despite the fixed term Parliament Act.

Placing the government in the invidious position of being forced to submit legislation for Royal Assent that they are vehemently opposed to raises all sorts of intriguing possibilities about circumventing the Opposition and Fixed term Parliament Act.
I am sure it has all been carefully choreographed and game planned to box steptoe senior into an election he does not want, cannot win and destroy Labour for generations.

Bring it on I say. All those Brexit party elective MPs stand ready.
The only problem is how to best use Widdecombe? Assuming we have left before the election she would make a stunning speaker to replace the poisonous dwarf.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 01 Sep 19 - 12:28 PM

At the risk of being a bit Nigelly, the vote saying Parliament did not want a no-deal was not a law. It was an expression of a wish, but it did not have legal standing. But what we would be talking about in a law passed next week - if indeed it was - would be framed as a law, and so subject to the contempt procedures if, for example, the Government refused to offer it for royal assent.

And I didn't get that from Wikipedia!


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Sep 19 - 12:21 PM

"would have thought ignoring a law of Parliament"
Me too, but is's apparently not how populist democracy works
I could have sworn that Parliament voted overwhelmingly way back not to crash out of Europe without a deal
YUP - THERE YOU GO
Yet here we are facing a no-deal Brexit
Brexit has left a long and growing trail of casualties and fatalities - Parliamentary Democracy seems to be among them
Where lie the traitors in this sorry saga ?
Personally, I'm pinning my hopes on the forthcoming legal challenges, but we all know that those who can pay the most get the most ustice
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 01 Sep 19 - 12:04 PM

I would have thought ignoring a law of Parliament would be contempt of Parliament, which has punishments that could extent to imprisonment, even for an MP. Nothing seems to exclude that MP being a PM that I have read so far.


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