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BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?

Stanron 19 Apr 19 - 05:11 AM
Jim Carroll 19 Apr 19 - 04:42 AM
David Carter (UK) 19 Apr 19 - 04:10 AM
David Carter (UK) 19 Apr 19 - 04:06 AM
DMcG 19 Apr 19 - 03:37 AM
Iains 19 Apr 19 - 03:33 AM
David Carter (UK) 19 Apr 19 - 03:14 AM
Jim Carroll 19 Apr 19 - 02:45 AM
Dave the Gnome 19 Apr 19 - 02:12 AM
Nigel Parsons 18 Apr 19 - 04:24 PM
Dave the Gnome 18 Apr 19 - 03:02 PM
Iains 18 Apr 19 - 02:23 PM
DMcG 18 Apr 19 - 02:20 PM
David Carter (UK) 18 Apr 19 - 02:08 PM
Nigel Parsons 18 Apr 19 - 02:01 PM
Nigel Parsons 18 Apr 19 - 01:57 PM
DMcG 18 Apr 19 - 01:36 PM
Stilly River Sage 18 Apr 19 - 11:05 AM
Steve Shaw 18 Apr 19 - 11:03 AM
Dave the Gnome 18 Apr 19 - 10:34 AM
DMcG 18 Apr 19 - 05:00 AM
Dave the Gnome 18 Apr 19 - 04:54 AM
Iains 18 Apr 19 - 03:47 AM
DMcG 18 Apr 19 - 03:36 AM
DMcG 18 Apr 19 - 03:31 AM
Iains 18 Apr 19 - 03:01 AM
McGrath of Harlow 17 Apr 19 - 08:01 AM
McGrath of Harlow 16 Apr 19 - 01:57 PM
Stilly River Sage 16 Apr 19 - 01:41 PM
Bonnie Shaljean 16 Apr 19 - 12:53 PM
Jim Carroll 16 Apr 19 - 09:22 AM
Backwoodsman 16 Apr 19 - 07:39 AM
Bonnie Shaljean 16 Apr 19 - 07:09 AM
Jim Carroll 16 Apr 19 - 06:45 AM
DMcG 16 Apr 19 - 06:40 AM
Bonnie Shaljean 16 Apr 19 - 06:12 AM
Nigel Parsons 16 Apr 19 - 06:07 AM
DMcG 16 Apr 19 - 05:51 AM
Bonnie Shaljean 16 Apr 19 - 05:50 AM
Nigel Parsons 16 Apr 19 - 05:44 AM
Jim Carroll 16 Apr 19 - 04:41 AM
Steve Shaw 16 Apr 19 - 04:28 AM
peteaberdeen 16 Apr 19 - 04:00 AM
Jim Carroll 16 Apr 19 - 03:40 AM
DMcG 16 Apr 19 - 03:07 AM
Bonnie Shaljean 15 Apr 19 - 08:19 PM
McGrath of Harlow 15 Apr 19 - 07:44 PM
Bonnie Shaljean 15 Apr 19 - 02:35 PM
DMcG 15 Apr 19 - 01:45 PM
McGrath of Harlow 15 Apr 19 - 01:18 PM
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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Stanron
Date: 19 Apr 19 - 05:11 AM

There have been some really daft postings on this thread but, if we were handing out prizes for daftness, I would nominate David Carter's post of 'Date: 19 Apr 19 - 04:06 AM '.

quote

And it is people who have not put in the effort to get anywhere in life, and are now casting around for someone else to blame, who are likely to have voted for Brexit.

Tell that to Jacob Rees-Mogg, David Starkey and the boss of Wetherspoons. They are not my idea of people who didn't put in the effort.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Apr 19 - 04:42 AM

"I think that shows that class is meaningless in the UK at least in the way it is used."
How so ?The Rees Moggs and Dysons can continue to campaign for Brexit while at the same time, making their own investments safe by moving them to safer parts of the world
Those who voted for leaving from our walk of life did so because they fell for the lies that by doing so it would improve our lot (particularly by keeping foreigners out - the oldest excuse for poverty used by the establishment)
They/we have no other waay of protecting what litle we have
Pretty significant difference, as afar as I'm concerned
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 19 Apr 19 - 04:10 AM

The minimum threshold is an issue and thats what I will be looking at when I decide my vote. But that vote will go to one of the clear anti brexit parties. Unless Labour come out clearly in favour of Starmer's viewpoint in the meantime, and chuck out the wreckers like Hoey and Flint.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 19 Apr 19 - 04:06 AM

An O level is an O level, one of mine was an E I think. O level = A-C GCSE. In any case thats not the point, secondary education was available and free to all in 1962, which is about when I went to school. If people despite that did not get the grades, thats nobody's fault but their own. And it is people who have not put in the effort to get anywhere in life, and are now casting around for someone else to blame, who are likely to have voted for brexit.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 19 Apr 19 - 03:37 AM

We could muse for a long time on the deficiencies of social categorisation measures, but that would take us a long way from Brexit, so I will resist.

The effect of the fragmentation of the pro-remain vote into separate camps (ChangeUK, LibDem, Green etc) is difficult to assess. Because the EU voting uses a version of proportional representation it does not matter too much in one sense because the 'pro-remain/pro-leave' representation more or less follows the sum of the votes for that viewpoint, rather than the separate parties. However there is a complication of a minimum threshold of I think 10% (or more in some places), and that could end up eliminating a viewpoint entirely if it becomes too fragmented.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 19 Apr 19 - 03:33 AM

The leavers are fully aware that the majority would almost certainly vote to stay if they were given an opportunity to re-confirm their decision

That is simply an opinion with zero data to support it. Conversely the surge in membership of the Brexit party would suggest perhaps the opposite is true.

Degree level education was only available to a minority in my day, so in this sense there will be a correlation with age. But don't look at that, look at O levels and GCSEs, which were/are available to all. Those with 5 or more O levels, or GCSEs grade A-C, are much more likely to have voted remain.

The same correlation with age occurs for OL and GCSE making your argument fallacious.
Percentage of School Leavers Achieving 5+ A-C (or Pass) O-level or A*-CGCSE (1962–2006)
15% 1962
24% 1986
58% 2006


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 19 Apr 19 - 03:14 AM

I think that shows that class is meaningless in the UK at least in the way it is used. Apart from the very rich, the Rees Moggs of the world, we are almost all pretty much the same. So I am social class E now, having moved from probably AB before I retired. Despite very little drop in my disposable income. What is not true though is that making this about educational achievement is meaningless. Degree level education was only available to a minority in my day, so in this sense there will be a correlation with age. But don't look at that, look at O levels and GCSEs, which were/are available to all. Those with 5 or more O levels, or GCSEs grade A-C, are much more likely to have voted remain.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Apr 19 - 02:45 AM

The leavers are fully aware that the majority would almost certainly vote to stay if they were given an opportunity to re-confirm their decision - there can be no other possible reason for not allowing a second vote
Even the rich-rats like Rees-Mogg and Dyson are rapidly deserting the sinking ship and putting their personal fortunes elsewhere

Like these
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/brexit-companies-leaving-uk-list-job-cuts-eu-no-deal-customs-union-a8792296.html

Not an option for most of us
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 19 Apr 19 - 02:12 AM

Ok Nigel, here is the full quite

The majority view here (not representative of the UK people) is being accepted as the majority view of the UK people.
THIS IS NOT TRUE!


You say quite clearly that the majority view here, the Mudcat Cafe, which we know is remain, is not representative of the UK people. In your next post you say you do not know the view of the UK people. If you do not know the view of the UK people, how do you know the view here is not representative of it?

Looking forward to your linguistic contortions to explain that one.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 18 Apr 19 - 04:24 PM

From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 Apr 19 - 03:02 PM

The majority view here (not representative of the UK people) is being accepted as the majority view of the UK people.

You do not know what the view of the majority of people hold on this issue.


No, I do not know what the majority view is. Although the majority of the voting public voted to leave the EU. But your (partial) quote was of me saying what the majority view, ON THIS SITE appears to be.

How can you possibly say that remain is not the view of the majority of UK people?
I couldn't, and so I didn't, even if you wish to imply that comment to me!


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 Apr 19 - 03:02 PM

The majority view here (not representative of the UK people) is being accepted as the majority view of the UK people.

You do not know what the view of the majority of people hold on this issue. Nor do I. Nor does anyone on here. The referendum was a snapshot of people's views 3 years ago and even then we did not know what the majority view of the UK people was. All we can say is that of those who voted, a few more voted to leave than did not. We do not know why people voted as they did. We do not know the views of those who did not or could not vote. We do not know how people would vote given another chance. We do not know new voters views. How can you possibly say that remain is not the view of the majority of UK people? Putting it in capitals does not make it any more true.

And FWIW being called a dickhead if far preferable to being told I should be shot or fuck off and live in Europe.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 18 Apr 19 - 02:23 PM

Brexit party Composition

18-24: 6%
25-49: 17%
50-64: 34%
65+: 42%


Social grade:
ABC1: 23%
C2DE: 32%

Rather misleading social grading. The largest demographic is 65+. Retirees are classed as Social grade E, regardless of prior employment history or educational attainment. It must also be pointed out that of the retired tertiary education was available to far fewer than today:

Students obtaining university degrees, UK
First degrees

1950 17,337
1960 22,426
1970 51,189
1980 68,150
1990 77,163
2000 243,246
2005 278,380
2010 330,720

Trying to make it a class or educational issue simply does not fly.
2011 350,800


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 18 Apr 19 - 02:20 PM

The full report explains all, Nigel.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 18 Apr 19 - 02:08 PM

Social grade is a meaningless metric anyway. What it usually means is income, which does not really correlate with attitudes, and correlates only loosely with opportunity.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 18 Apr 19 - 02:01 PM

From: DMcG - PM
Date: 18 Apr 19 - 03:31 AM
The full figures for the poll Iains referred to are here
The composition of the Brexit party is striking.

Affiliation last election:
42% voted conservative
10% voted Labour.

The age breakdown is:
18-24: 6%
25-49: 17%50-64: 34%
65+: 42%
Social grade:
ABC1: 23%
C2DE: 32%


Less than 60% fit into a 'Social Grade'?


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 18 Apr 19 - 01:57 PM

From: Steve Shaw - PM
Date: 18 Apr 19 - 06:11 AM
"We may disagree with the decision many leavers made based on cynical false claims and disinformation,
but accept they did it for what they believed at the time were positive reasons for the benefit of us all..
It's clear many now regret that decision."

So "what they believed at the time" and "now regret that decision" indicates that they were suckered into making a wrong call. They didn't realise what a bloody disaster brexit would inevitably be. Well I did, along with millions of others who embarked on a rapid learning curve during the campaign, the responsible thing to do. On the morning of 24 June 2016 I was in Italy and along with the Brits, Germans, Italians and Danes in the hotel I was bloody devastated. If you are one of the above "regretful" types, you didn't do your homework and then you irresponsibly voted out of ignorance. Let's not forget that these poor wee souls who now regret their decision are dragging us out of the EU in the biggest disaster for the country since WWII. So their ignorance and irresponsibility have got us into this mess. Ignorant is too kind a word. On top of that, over a third of leave voters openly admit to being racist. And that's just the ones who admit it. Ignorance and racism led to the leave victory. Anything else is just indulging stupidity.

This is copied from the Shamima Begum thread, where Steve appears to have posted it in error.

Once again, a remain supporter (Steve Shaw) states, quite clearly that those who voted 'leave' were either racist, or ignorant.
If I were to state that those who voted remain were all dickheads, I would expect to be chided for disparaging their views (even though they were in the minority). The majority view here (not representative of the UK people) is being accepted as the majority view of the UK people.
THIS IS NOT TRUE!


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 18 Apr 19 - 01:36 PM

The ComRes poll on 16th April gives very different results to YouGov's poll:
===
European Parliament Voting Intention: LAB 33%; CON 18%; BRX 17%; CHUK 9%; LD 9%; UKIP 5%; Green 5%; SNP 4%; Other 1%
===

A warning, perhaps, to treat all polls with caution, especially at this early stage.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 18 Apr 19 - 11:05 AM

Stop responding to trolls, please.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Apr 19 - 11:03 AM

Can we please stop falling for the nonsense, chaps?


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 Apr 19 - 10:34 AM

By way of a bit of light relief

I would tell 500 lies

Scroll down and play the video. It's worth it

:D


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 18 Apr 19 - 05:00 AM

The problem with quoting adages is they can be a good example of confirmation bias. They need to be hadled with care. For instance we could quote:

The sixth age shifts
Into the lean and slippered pantaloon,
With spectacles on nose and pouch on side;
His youthful hose, well saved, a world too wide
For his shrunk shank, and his big manly voice,
Turning again toward childish treble, pipes
And whistles in his sound. Last scene of all,
That ends this strange eventful history,
Is second childishness and mere oblivion,
Sans teeth, sans eyes, sans taste, sans everything.


- which is much more about declining into narrowness than supposed gain in wisdom. The history of the adage Iains gave, by the way, is very uncertain but seems to be talking about support for the French revolution in its earlier forms and did not refer to socialists as such, though some might view the idea of égalité in that light.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 Apr 19 - 04:54 AM

Farage The Brexit Fraud Keeps On Lying

Nothing new there then.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 18 Apr 19 - 03:47 AM

Striking confirmation of the old adage:
For the young to be socialist indicates they have a heart.
For the old to be socialist indicates they have no brain!


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 18 Apr 19 - 03:36 AM

Sorry, I used the shorthand of 'Brexit Party' when I should have referred to the weighted figures for people who expressed an intention to vote for the Brexit party. I have no figures on the actual membership of the party.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 18 Apr 19 - 03:31 AM

The full figures for the poll Iains referred to are here

The composition of the Brexit party is striking.


Affiliation last election:
42% voted conservative
10% voted Labour.


The age breakdown is:


18-24: 6%
25-49: 17%
50-64: 34%
65+: 42%


Social grade:
ABC1: 23%
C2DE: 32%


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Iains
Date: 18 Apr 19 - 03:01 AM

Prime Minister Theresa May promised European leaders that the U.K. would participate in next month's elections in order to secure a Brexit extension, though the country can still avoid that fate if the House of Commons is able to pass a deal before May 23. If Brits who favor remaining in the European Union thought holding European elections might bolster their position and undermine a push toward Brexit, this latest poll suggests they could be very, very wrong.

By the numbers, per YouGov:

    Brexit Party: 27%
    Labour Party: 22%
    Conservative Party: 15%
    Green Party: 10%
    Liberal Democrats: 9%
    UKIP: 7%
    Change U.K.: 6%


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 17 Apr 19 - 08:01 AM

As for Nigel's "The countries are united under a single 'kingdom' which would continue even if the number of constituent parts was reduced," that doesn't follow. Even if Scotland decides to stick with a monarchy with the same Queen or King as England, that wouldn't mean a single kingdom, any more than it does for Canada, Australia and some other countries. Noone would dream of suggesting those were part of the UK.bb


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 Apr 19 - 01:57 PM

It was "United Kingdoms" originally when James I and VI came down to London, referring to England with Wales and Scotland. The term United Kingdom only seems to have been used from the Irish Act of Union in 1801.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 16 Apr 19 - 01:41 PM

That's a charming story!


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 16 Apr 19 - 12:53 PM

Here is an example of what Jim is talking about. And it happened in the late 70s. The height of the Troubles. I wasn't there to witness this, but my (English-born) husband was.

Michael had won the All Britain Fleadh in bodhrán, and this entitled him to compete in the All Ireland, which was being held that year in Buncrana, Co. Donegal - only about 12 miles or so from the Derry border, with Derry city just beyond it.

The Irish of all stripes love their music, and they're good at it. One reason for this is that a lot of the children start playing very young, schools are fertile breeding ground, and a natural thing to do is form them into marching bands. And marching bands mean parades.

So: a Fleadh, loads of talented kids with instruments, and a deep division between Orange and Green, over which people are dying regularly just the other side of the Foyle. Hence, there would be not one parade, but two. Starting at opposite ends of the town, each heading towards the centre. At the same time. A Catholic band striding down the high street from one side, a Protestant one from the other, both playing their music at full blast. High Noon in Buncrana.

Michael watched with mounting unease as the two sides kept moving relentlessly towards the middle, approaching nearer and nearer until they faced off, and...

marched through each other. In organised lines. Never dropped a step, never missed a beat, never fluffed a note. Straight. Through. And on out the far end, the two tunes mingling in the air behind them.

Michael says he never saw anything like it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Apr 19 - 09:22 AM

"would it re-unite as a single country"
If you visited the North, you wouldn't need to ask that question Nigel
Once you leave behind the enforced politics of the North at an time other than 'The Glorious Twelfth', you would see that any divisions are political other than social ones
There are, of course, factions caused by the built in inequality of partition, but once that is removed, there are no grounds for division
People from the South travel North with no problem and vise versa - you need to come to this town during, say, The Willie Clancy Summer School, or visit one of the Norther Singing or Music weekends to see how they get on
We came to this town when the hunger strikers were dying - black flags bedecking the street and Prods and Catholics playing, singing talking and drinking in the packed bars
We travel the North regularly - now the border is gone you don't know you're in a different country - except the Brits kept the best land for themselves - The Empire was always like that
This is in imposed division - remove the reason for there being a difference and there isn't one
I suggest you look up the change in percentages of those who want a United Ireland - on both sides of the divide
JIm Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 16 Apr 19 - 07:39 AM

Anything’s possible on Planet Nigs, Bonnie. ;-)


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 16 Apr 19 - 07:09 AM

In my 2:35 post just above, what I said was:

... an Irish border poll is a real possibility, even a likelihood, if Britain leaves without an agreement in place.

If there ends up being no deal, do you really, really, really, really, really, really think Ireland - which is a nation in its own hard-fought right, remember - would voluntarily choose to give up her independence, her seat at the table of a large stable trading bloc, and its funding support, to cleave unto a foundering Britain who has cast herself adrift, with the population deeply riven? Seriously?


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Apr 19 - 06:45 AM

" Let's not go down that route again."
Nothing other than leaving was made clear at the time of the vote, that's why the whole thing has turned into the farce it has become
The UK is a a misnomer and always has been, it is the result of past conquests and as far as Ireland goes, was brought about by threat of invasion - nothing 'united' about that
Scotland us, in fact Governed by an unelected Government - go count the number of Conservative MPs
The annexation of a state or part of a state with a separate culture and history is a most unnatural act and is destined to lead to disruption and even violence - when you annex part of a a state then give two thirds of the people dominance over the other third you create the time bomb that the six counties have always been
Now that England has reached a decision which adversely affects the annexed counties the chickens have finally come home to roost big time - Britain is now relying on a sectarian party to force through the most important decision it has ever had to make - a real tiger by the tail
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 16 Apr 19 - 06:40 AM

Similarly reunification for the North to become part of the republic of Ireland would be a change to their position, leaving the UK, and becoming a part of the EU.
Yes. it was a serious question, and one that I feel should be made totally clear by anyone who suggests that the two parts of Ireland should vote for reunification.


Then let me be totally clear. There are very few countries, to the best of my admittedly very limited knowledge, that fight for and win independence and then decide to re-unify with the opponent, and particularly not in a way that hands the ultimate authority back to the old opponent. It is of course theoretically possible, just as it is possible for say India to decide to become subject to British rule, but in both cases I think it vanishingly unlikely and a fantastical notion. In my opinion.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 16 Apr 19 - 06:12 AM

Fine by me. But I still think it's a head-scratchingly strange question.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 16 Apr 19 - 06:07 AM

Similarly reunification for the North to become part of the republic of Ireland would be a change to their position, leaving the UK, and becoming a part of the EU.
Yes. it was a serious question, and one that I feel should be made totally clear by anyone who suggests that the two parts of Ireland should vote for reunification.
It is all very well to claim that it is obvious, or that one of Mrs May's speeches makes it clear, but this whole discussion seems to be created by ambiguities in the Brexit referendum which people claim were unclear at the time of the vote. Let's not go down that route again.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 16 Apr 19 - 05:51 AM

would it re-unite as a single country (Republic of Ireland) as part of the EU, or would the Republic become part of Northern Ireland, and thus part of the UK.

Given the history of the Republic, is that a serious question?


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 16 Apr 19 - 05:50 AM

Ummm, no... the Republic isn't going to become part of the UK. It's an independent republic. If that really needs clarifying at official level, it can be done. Re-read Theresa May's address to Parliament below.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 16 Apr 19 - 05:44 AM

MGoH: Without Scotland there wouldn't be a United Kingdom anyway, Northern Ireland and Wales aren't kingdoms, unlike Scotland.
That is irrelevant. Scotland isn't a kingdom either (now). The countries are united under a single 'kingdom' which would continue even if the number of constituent parts was reduced. The clue is in the title "United Kingdom", otherwise it would be "United Kingdoms".

Bonnie Shaljean: Not sure I get your point. If the two Irelands reunite - which they can do if there's a mutual will for it - then the North is no longer part of the UK, but joins the Republic.
That is some assumption. There is still the question (which I've put to Jim a few times with no good response) that even if Ireland re-united (requiring agreement from residents of both halves), would it re-unite as a single country (Republic of Ireland) as part of the EU, or would the Republic become part of Northern Ireland, and thus part of the UK. The answer to this question would need to be clear before any referendums were held about re-unification.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Apr 19 - 04:41 AM

"see you, jimmy - careful with the weary, old patronising stereotypes there. i'm in scotland -well, glasgow-"
You must excuse my somewhat wry humour - I got it from my Dad who was born in Glasgow (don't know if The Ridgeway is still there)
I know well that Scotland is fully capable of standing on its own two feet - probably more-so than Britain now, as things stand at present
I just haven't made up my mind about the SNP yet
You are aware of course that one of Ireland's greatest heroes (certainly our family's), James Connolly, was born in Edinburgh
I have to say that one of the few football matches I ever attended - a Celtic/Rangers derby, was the first time I'd ever seen men in cages

"You forgot to mention Scotland's greatest products"
And you forgot to mention Alec Douglas Home - but we all have our cross to bear   
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Apr 19 - 04:28 AM

Ha ha, it didn't take you long to include the football team that Billy Connolly thought was called "Partick Nil!"

You forgot to mention Scotland's greatest products, namely Bill Shankly (aka God), Kenny Dalglish and Graham Souness...Andy Robertson...


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: peteaberdeen
Date: 16 Apr 19 - 04:00 AM

see you, jimmy - careful with the weary, old patronising stereotypes there. i'm in scotland -well, glasgow- about once a fortnight and it doesn't need saying how many advantages scotland could gain from independence. (i'll take your mars bar and raise you oil, water, renenwables, partick thistle, central station, whisky and shitloads of money) once we get rid of paying for nuclear weaponry, crossrail, hs2 and many other english (usually london) financial projects we can do just fine. and - post-brexit- many english based firms will have advantages in relocating north.
once we have SNP led independence they will have given up their USP and become just another party and presumably will not do so well. as there is PR in the (vastly superior) scottish parliament, coalitions will be more probable and the more progressive nature of scottish politics should ensure better government than what they currently endure from westminster - what's not to like?


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Apr 19 - 03:40 AM

Irish Unity has been on the cards for some time now - the gap between the two groups has lessened considerably and there is now pressure from both sides for it
The major factors appear to have been the reassessment of the position of the Catholic Church brought about by the abuse disclosures in the Republic and the intransigence on issues such as pregnancy termination, same sex marriage and woman's rights in the North   
The DUP no longer has an overall majority and has to rely on co-operation of other parties
It seems to me that the end of the artificial division was inevitable, the economic effects of Brexit and the threat to the peace negotiation are just the icing on the long-awaited cake
I look forward to it happening
Probably the only good to have come out of this long-running farce, though it's a crying shame that it should ever been inflicted on the British people
I would love to see Scotland take their destiny in their own hands, but I'm not sure about a one-policy party with no long-term game plan - maybe the development of a Deep-Fried Mars Bar industry :-)   
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 16 Apr 19 - 03:07 AM

Presumably we also remove the Scottish and Irish aspects of the flag, so we end up with just the English flag?

I went to a lecture on St George around 6 months ago, and it turns out the red cross on a white background is not St George's flag after all - early paintings show a completely different flag. In fact, according to the lecturer, the thing we call St George's flag was adopted in (I think) the 16th century from the city flag of Milan. St George is also patron saint of Milan, and someone confused the saint's flag with the city one. There is some irony in the very flag arising from confusion with Europe...


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 15 Apr 19 - 08:19 PM

Not sure I get your point. If the two Irelands reunite - which they can do if there’s a mutual will for it - then the North is no longer part of the UK, but joins the Republic.

Scotland’s drive to be independent has been made very clear, as has their widespread resentment about being pulled out of the EU against their majority’s will, and Europe has indicated willingness to accept them into the fold if they break away.

This would then diminish the United Kingdom - i.e. “the Union” - to just England and Wales. What is the point of quibbling over semantics?


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 Apr 19 - 07:44 PM

Without Scotland there wouldn't be a United Kingdom anyway, Northern Ireland and Wales aren't kingdoms, unlike Scotland. The Union of Southern Britain and Northern Ireland, maybe...


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 15 Apr 19 - 02:35 PM

Although May has repeatedly talked the hard talk about allowing no-deal to remain on the table (and it is still the default scenario), according to those in her "inner circle", her bottom-line worry is the breakup of the union. And an Irish border poll is a real possibility, even a likelihood, if Britain leaves without an agreement in place. (I don't know why the DUP don't take that threat more seriously, considering the likely outcome under such circumstances. But they're good deniers, and totally blinkered.) You can bet Scotland wouldn't be far behind.

May's private illuminati (whoever they are - or were as of 4th April) have the following to say. Stay tuned.

- - -

"No-deal is better than a bad deal" was Theresa May's mantra for two years, making clear that Britain would walk away from negotiations with the EU if necessary. Her statement after the marathon cabinet meeting on Tuesday night, however, put paid to that. In a move which threatened to split her party - always something she had sought to avoid - Mrs May dramatically changed strategy and announced she would seek a deal with Labour support.

What changed her mind? I have been told by government insiders and those close to the prime minister that the answer is the UK union. One of her inner circle said: 'She's fixated on the union. No-deal clearly puts huge strain on the Irish border and the consequence is that a border poll becomes a real possibility. She thinks it would be high risk, and if it succeeded there would be a great impetus to Scotland. It could be that serious in terms of the breakup of the UK.'

Two other government sources told Sky News they believed the union was the decisive factor in Mrs May's thinking. One said: 'It was the union. The prospect of direct rule and some of the decisions that would need to be made in that situation are very unpalatable.' Another source added that the prospect of a border poll in Northern Ireland was 'very real' and something that other cabinet ministers were also concerned about...

In January, shortly before cancelling her second meaningful vote, Theresa May told the House of Commons: 'To those who think we should reject this deal in favour of no deal because we cannot get every assurance we want, I ask what a no-deal Brexit would do to strengthen the hand of those campaigning for Scottish independence or indeed of those demanding a border poll in Northern Ireland. Surely that is the real threat to our Union.'

To those familiar with her thinking, the impression is that the prime minister has become increasingly swayed by this argument.


4th April 2019
https://news.sky.com/story/why-did-theresa-may-ditch-a-no-deal-brexit-11683841


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: DMcG
Date: 15 Apr 19 - 01:45 PM

That is true, McGrath. But as the EU said they are - in principle - prepared to have Scotland as a member after an independence vote, we may have two land borders with the EU, not one. And all the issues of phytosanitory checks etc would apply.


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Subject: RE: BS: Brexit #3: A futile gesture?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 Apr 19 - 01:18 PM

The difference would be the SNP wouldn't have the same objections that the DUP has about that backstop being a threat to the Union. They aren't Unionists.


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