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Singarounds: Code of Conduct

Jim Carroll 07 Sep 18 - 09:34 AM
The Sandman 07 Sep 18 - 08:01 AM
GUEST,Jack Campin 07 Sep 18 - 07:49 AM
GUEST,Pseudonymous 07 Sep 18 - 06:38 AM
Howard Jones 07 Sep 18 - 05:41 AM
Backwoodsman 07 Sep 18 - 03:54 AM
GUEST,FloraG 07 Sep 18 - 02:57 AM
Big Al Whittle 06 Sep 18 - 03:05 PM
Big Al Whittle 06 Sep 18 - 03:05 PM
GUEST,Rigby 06 Sep 18 - 12:18 PM
Acorn4 06 Sep 18 - 12:08 PM
GUEST,Jerry 06 Sep 18 - 05:49 AM
GUEST,FloraG 06 Sep 18 - 04:59 AM
GUEST,Jerry 03 Sep 18 - 05:41 PM
GUEST,matt milton 02 Sep 18 - 05:43 PM
Sian H 02 Sep 18 - 01:42 PM
GUEST,Jerry 31 Aug 18 - 02:30 PM
GUEST,Observer 31 Aug 18 - 12:45 PM
GUEST,Jerry 31 Aug 18 - 12:09 PM
Backwoodsman 31 Aug 18 - 10:04 AM
SPB-Cooperator 31 Aug 18 - 09:46 AM
Big Al Whittle 31 Aug 18 - 09:40 AM
Jim Carroll 31 Aug 18 - 08:53 AM
Big Al Whittle 31 Aug 18 - 07:58 AM
GUEST,ST 31 Aug 18 - 06:58 AM
GUEST,DTM 31 Aug 18 - 06:07 AM
GUEST,Observer 31 Aug 18 - 05:51 AM
Acorn4 31 Aug 18 - 05:35 AM
GUEST,FloraG 31 Aug 18 - 04:36 AM
GUEST,Jerry 31 Aug 18 - 03:26 AM
GUEST,DTM 31 Aug 18 - 03:24 AM
GUEST,Sean O'Shea 31 Aug 18 - 03:07 AM
Tattie Bogle 30 Aug 18 - 07:46 PM
Acorn4 30 Aug 18 - 07:12 PM
Big Al Whittle 30 Aug 18 - 05:22 PM
Tattie Bogle 30 Aug 18 - 04:42 PM
Acorn4 30 Aug 18 - 01:37 PM
Acorn4 30 Aug 18 - 01:37 PM
Big Al Whittle 30 Aug 18 - 06:34 AM
GUEST,Jim Knowledge 30 Aug 18 - 06:21 AM
JHW 30 Aug 18 - 05:57 AM
Johnny J 29 Aug 18 - 08:56 AM
GUEST,oldnickilby 29 Aug 18 - 08:45 AM
Mooh 29 Aug 18 - 07:44 AM
GUEST,oldnickilby 29 Aug 18 - 07:37 AM
GUEST,Jack Campin 29 Aug 18 - 06:49 AM
JHW 29 Aug 18 - 06:10 AM
Rob Naylor 29 Aug 18 - 05:52 AM
GUEST,some bloke 29 Aug 18 - 03:54 AM
Acorn4 28 Aug 18 - 06:21 PM
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Subject: RE: Singarounds: Code of Conduct
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Sep 18 - 09:34 AM

Why make a video
The best workshops I have ever been involved in have consisted of a group of people with a degree of experience in folk song (doesn't really matter what size - half-a dozen works as well as any), getting a singer to sing and allowing the rest t make positive and hopefully, practical comments on what they heard
It never failed to work for us
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Singarounds: Code of Conduct
From: The Sandman
Date: 07 Sep 18 - 08:01 AM

jack , i agree if people are going to read could they practise, in front of a mirror is imo a good idea, look at yourself observe,video yourself then play it back get a friend to watch and make comments


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Subject: RE: Singarounds: Code of Conduct
From: GUEST,Jack Campin
Date: 07 Sep 18 - 07:49 AM

Probably the most celebrated public poet of the twentieth century, and the one who got the largest audiences on earth for it:

Yevtushenko in action

and a couple of other people you might have heard of

There are those who can deliver an effective performance while reading, but they are very much in the minority.

So are those who can deliver an effective performance while not reading. Care to name anybody who could do better on the material I've linked to than the folks in those videos?


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Subject: RE: Singarounds: Code of Conduct
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 07 Sep 18 - 06:38 AM

No performance poetry?

May I put in a word for Attila the Stockbroker at this point?


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Subject: RE: Singarounds: Code of Conduct
From: Howard Jones
Date: 07 Sep 18 - 05:41 AM

The wonderful Les Barker reads his own poems from a book, or at least usually has it in front of him.

The objection to people reading, whether poems or songs, is that in most cases they do it because they haven't acquired performance skills, and while they continue to rely on this they won't gain these skills. With these people, reading detracts from the performance. There are those who can deliver an effective performance while reading, but they are very much in the minority.

The presumption, out of respect for the song and the audience, should be to learn it properly and perform from memory. If you can't do this, consider whether you are ready to perform it yet. If you have genuine problems with memory, then learn the skills to deliver the song effectively from a prompt.


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Subject: RE: Singarounds: Code of Conduct
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 07 Sep 18 - 03:54 AM

I'm amazed how many poets have to read their own poems from a book/iPhone/tablet! Can't even be arsed to learn their own poetry! And not a single syllable of criticism from the 'Show Respect' Brigade.


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Subject: RE: Singarounds: Code of Conduct
From: GUEST,FloraG
Date: 07 Sep 18 - 02:57 AM

But not some poem read from a book because they have not bothered to learn it please.
FloraG


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Subject: RE: Singarounds: Code of Conduct
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 06 Sep 18 - 03:05 PM

I quite like performance poetry.

if people are well mannered and friendly, I think that's the main thing.


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Subject: RE: Singarounds: Code of Conduct
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 06 Sep 18 - 03:05 PM

I quite like performance poetry.

if people are well mannered and friendly, I think that's the main thing.


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Subject: RE: Singarounds: Code of Conduct
From: GUEST,Rigby
Date: 06 Sep 18 - 12:18 PM

I think we are all forgetting the most important rule of all:

NO PERFORMANCE POETRY.


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Subject: RE: Singarounds: Code of Conduct
From: Acorn4
Date: 06 Sep 18 - 12:08 PM

There is another habit of when a song is played when there is usually an instrumental break, to strum through the chords when there is no one willing to join in - just don't see the point of this.


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Subject: RE: Singarounds: Code of Conduct
From: GUEST,Jerry
Date: 06 Sep 18 - 05:49 AM

I think sometimes that can be necessary, just to get sufficient silence around the room to make it worth launching into the lyric, particularly if the first verse is important to the rest of the songís narrative, but if itís just to draw attention to instrumental skills which may not be that great anyway, I agree that is irritating especially when time is short for others waiting their turn. However, when I do that myself it usually means Iíve forgotten the first line, or am contemplating whether to switch the key down a little to avoid that high e in the chorus.


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Subject: RE: Singarounds: Code of Conduct
From: GUEST,FloraG
Date: 06 Sep 18 - 04:59 AM

How long should an introduction be?
If I'm at a sing around with other instrumentalists who like to join in I tend to play the tune of a verse first before the song, unless its well known. However, I find I get irritated with solo singers who do long solo introductions, especially if its only a series of chords and no tune.
Any thoughts?


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Subject: RE: Singarounds: Code of Conduct
From: GUEST,Jerry
Date: 03 Sep 18 - 05:41 PM

What an utter and complete jerk. I reckon that guy must be doing the rounds, because he seems to be at every event I go to. Ouch, just realised I am that man. Thanks for not heckling though.


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Subject: RE: Singarounds: Code of Conduct
From: GUEST,matt milton
Date: 02 Sep 18 - 05:43 PM

Had a real classic humdinger of how NOT to approach a floor spot the other night. Feel driven to share as it annoyed me so much...

Guy sits down, then spends basically the time it would take anyone else to sing an entire song just to put his guitar into some special tuning.

All the while he informs us that he's about to sing a really long song. This is why, apparently, he has the lyrics on his phone - he tells us that normally he wouldn't dream of such a thing, being such a pro etc, but they are only there just cos it's a really long song and he probably won't need them - they are there just in case.

He starts the song off really fast, in order to seem really impressive on the guitar. But he then slows down massively when he actually has to start singing at the same time.

He immediately forgets some words. He has placed his phone on a chair next to him, where he can't actually see it. So he has to stop the song to look at them. He does this three times. He also turns out to be not much of a good singer, hitting all the high notes flat. I have to fight the urge to heckle so so so much...


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Subject: RE: Singarounds: Code of Conduct
From: Sian H
Date: 02 Sep 18 - 01:42 PM

Our monthly Singarounds are really enjoyable for all participants and at first appearance youíd say there are no rules; but there are rules. Theyíre not written down nor referred to explicitly. Theyíre more or less the rules mudcatters have listed above. I think most singers at our singaround behave as they would like others to behave. Most want to sing and be heard, and not compete with unnecessary sounds. Newbies usually watch, listen and follow the established etiquette. Occasionally we, as MCs, give a quiet reminder if singing is disturbed. Iíve enjoyed reading this thread, and I particularly resonate with GuestSTís phrase that Ďguidelines (rules) are just generally understood on the basis of good manners and respect for the songsí. That says it all really!


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Subject: RE: Singarounds: Code of Conduct
From: GUEST,Jerry
Date: 31 Aug 18 - 02:30 PM

I donít refute what you say about becoming the norm, but we like to be open minded and welcome anyone who wants to perform. The youngsters you and I have both referred to rarely come to Club nights, as it happens, but seem to want to go straight from bedroom practising to paid whole night gigs, and skip the slow learning process of stagecraft and presentation that Club nights provide, relying presumably on youthful good looks instead, and all their mates and relatives to fill the venue. On the other hand, they may just not want to hang around with people even older than their parents are; neither did I at that age (thinking about it, not now either). I think ithe problem is that ways of learning have greatly changed. No longer do you have to slow down recordings, compare notes with mates, search out sheet music, etc. because there are dumbed down versions of any song you want on the Internet; just print and play.


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Subject: RE: Singarounds: Code of Conduct
From: GUEST,Observer
Date: 31 Aug 18 - 12:45 PM

Guest Jerry it must be great to live in hope, unfortunately as long as you tolerate the practice the more it will prevail and as can be seen THAT DOES become the norm.

I have, for the last ten weeks, watched and listened to two youngsters attempt to sing impossibly complicated songs while hesitatingly strumming a guitar in totally the wrong key for their voices as they stumbled through reading the lyrics made even worse as their bits of paper cascade from the music stand. On occasion you can applaud a trier but after a couple of weeks it just becomes embarrassingly pathetic. There would appear to be a total lack of understanding on their part of what is required in terms of skill and ability to perform the material of their choice in any other venue than their bedroom.


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Subject: RE: Singarounds: Code of Conduct
From: GUEST,Jerry
Date: 31 Aug 18 - 12:09 PM

We certainly donít ban ringbinders and tablets, etc at my club, although I would hope that they might take the hint by the way I carefully move music stands to the side after such performances. As someone suggested above here, the more they are tolerated the more that people think it is the norm, and for many teenage strummers playing in our pubs here now, it sadly is, with Mum and Dad nearby to turn the pages for them. But donít get me started on that.....


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Subject: RE: Singarounds: Code of Conduct
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 31 Aug 18 - 10:04 AM

"and the uncomfortable pauses as they swipe to the next page."

Which would be completely unnecessary if they used OnSong and set the page to scroll.


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Subject: RE: Singarounds: Code of Conduct
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 31 Aug 18 - 09:46 AM

It is not so much bits of paper these days, but people reading off their tablets, and the uncomfortable pauses as they swipe to the next page.


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Subject: RE: Singarounds: Code of Conduct
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 31 Aug 18 - 09:40 AM

you can say that again!


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Subject: RE: Singarounds: Code of Conduct
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 31 Aug 18 - 08:53 AM

"How long should a song be?"
As long as it takes
A poor song badly sung is far to long no matter how many verses has
A good song well sung is never long enough
Jim


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Subject: RE: Singarounds: Code of Conduct
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 31 Aug 18 - 07:58 AM

How long should a song be?

About 2minutes 10, I reckon. Then it should be recategorised as an opera.


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Subject: RE: Singarounds: Code of Conduct
From: GUEST,ST
Date: 31 Aug 18 - 06:58 AM

I tend to agree with Acorn4ís list, although the best clubs/sessions/singarounds seem to be those where those guidelines (rules) are just generally understood on the basis of good manners and respect for the songs.

The Ďnot learning the wordsí trend (I call it a trend because I canít remember any club or session from the 60s and 70s where it happened), which has raised its head here, seems to have a Ďcritical massí aspect. In singarounds and clubs where the regulars set the example of knowing and respecting their songs, newcomers soon see whatís expected of them and follow suit. If too many think itís OK to read the words then it becomes the norm and soon nearly everyone is doing it - including the younger generation to whom we geriatrics should be setting a better example. That seems to change the whole atmosphere of a club.

My own, very biased view is that I go out to sing songs and itís the songs that are important, not me. If I hadnít bothered to learn the words it would seem to be more about me getting an opportunity to sing than about the song getting the respect it deserved. It depends on whether you see the clubs as about keeping the spirit of the songs alive or as care in the community places where people can go out and be noticed for a few minutes. Thereís room for both but I know which I prefer to go to.

(Iím embarrassed to admit that twice in the last 2 months Iíve forgotten the words of a song that I started. True, I've sung quite a lot of songs in that time (74 different ones) but thatís no excuse. Iíve decided Iíll have to sing less or choose and practice particular songs before I go out if this is what old age brings but what I wonít do is start to read the words Ė but thatís just me and my choice: chacun a son gout


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Subject: RE: Singarounds: Code of Conduct
From: GUEST,DTM
Date: 31 Aug 18 - 06:07 AM

"Guest, Observer-But they would be far better in terms of quality of performance, and you never know it might just encourage the ring-binder and i-pad brigade to actually make the effort to actually learn a song".

Or not bother turning up at all.
Alternatively, they could start up a rival "Ring-binders Only Club" ;-)

Personally, I don't think Folk Clubs should put up any unnecessary walls around their sessions. They are social gatherings, not military exercises.


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Subject: RE: Singarounds: Code of Conduct
From: GUEST,Observer
Date: 31 Aug 18 - 05:51 AM

if you tried to ban words or pads, many singarounds would be very thinly attended these days.

But they would be far better in terms of quality of performance, and you never know it might just encourage the ring-binder and i-pad brigade to actually make the effort to actually learn a song.


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Subject: RE: Singarounds: Code of Conduct
From: Acorn4
Date: 31 Aug 18 - 05:35 AM

In the initial thread I was just being realistic - if you tried to
ban words or pads, many singarounds would be very thinly attended these days.


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Subject: RE: Singarounds: Code of Conduct
From: GUEST,FloraG
Date: 31 Aug 18 - 04:36 AM

How long should a song be?
I always reckon that in a song where the verses are not critical to the story 6 is the maximum.


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Subject: RE: Singarounds: Code of Conduct
From: GUEST,Jerry
Date: 31 Aug 18 - 03:26 AM

True, but that has been covered ad nauseam on other threads, with people pointing out that it is generally bad form - apart from lack of emotion, you cannot connect with your audience if you are staring at something else, if you cannot memorise sometimes only a couple of verses or a basic chord sequence perhaps you shouldnít be performing in public yet, plus itís arguably disrespectful to your audience ďhereís a song Iíd like to sing but I canít be bothered to learn the wordsĒ.


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Subject: RE: Singarounds: Code of Conduct
From: GUEST,DTM
Date: 31 Aug 18 - 03:24 AM

Someone once said to me that if you need to read the words at a gig you'll never learn them and there's some truth in that. A friend of mine sang a well-known song (with only two verses) every week for well over 10 years and couldn't do it without the lyric sheet in front of him.
'In the old days' we wrote the lyrics out manually and this probably helped you absorb them to some extent. In these days of 'cut and paste' that benefit has gone.
I must hold my hand up and say, as I get older my memory doesn't seem to work as good as it did, especially when trying to learn new songs, so I do like to have the lyrics close at hand for those embarrassing CRAFT moments.


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Subject: RE: Singarounds: Code of Conduct
From: GUEST,Sean O'Shea
Date: 31 Aug 18 - 03:07 AM

I'm surprised at the lack of comment on the initial suggestion that using words is all right.
Its not.It's not singing when you do this, merely presenting words which many of the audience will be already familiar with.I cannot tolerate singers who will appear at a sing around with the same song regularly and still be reading it,time and again.There is no heart in presenting songs like this.Singing is emotional and should in some degree be an artistic gift to the audience.And as for setting up IT in front of you and reading from it...get thoroughly lost.


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Subject: RE: Singarounds: Code of Conduct
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 30 Aug 18 - 07:46 PM

The club I mentioned above will put any late-comers last to be called, regardless of where they sit or what the other main order is of the night: seems fair enough!


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Subject: RE: Singarounds: Code of Conduct
From: Acorn4
Date: 30 Aug 18 - 07:12 PM

Some clubs do "cast in order of appearance".


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Subject: RE: Singarounds: Code of Conduct
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 30 Aug 18 - 05:22 PM

And if they tip you the black spot, you've been deposed matey!
Made to walk the plank with your ringbinder stuck up yer bum.

Them as die will be the lucky ones....!


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Subject: RE: Singarounds: Code of Conduct
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 30 Aug 18 - 04:42 PM

They flip a coin in one session I go to, but then again, sometimes, just to be different (awkward?) they go "one from the left, one from the right".....which means if you're halfway round the room you've got a cat's chance in hell of a song before half-time, and definitely not a second one that night!


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Subject: RE: Singarounds: Code of Conduct
From: Acorn4
Date: 30 Aug 18 - 01:37 PM

beer mat!


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Subject: RE: Singarounds: Code of Conduct
From: Acorn4
Date: 30 Aug 18 - 01:37 PM

We always flip a beer may to decide which way to go around.

Leaves it to serendipity.


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Subject: RE: Singarounds: Code of Conduct
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 30 Aug 18 - 06:34 AM

Never wipe your bum on the beer mats.


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Subject: RE: Singarounds: Code of Conduct
From: GUEST,Jim Knowledge
Date: 30 Aug 18 - 06:21 AM

I `ad that Joe Offer in my cab the other day. `e was pawing through a copy of "The Observers Book of Session Be`aviour"
I said, "Morning Joe, I see you`ve been giving it large on that Mudcat post about `ow Singarounds ought to be conducted"
`e said, "That`s right Jim. There seems to be a lot of concern about it these days. `ere, you and your band used to run "Singing and Playing Nights" down in "The Blacksmiths Arms". `ow did you get on?"
I said, "Well, initially there was always this contention about do we go clockwise or anti-clockwise?. Do a couple get two songs per go?. What `appens if a trio turn up? Could the singers dance while the players did a reel? `oos song is `oos? Can we close the bogs while someone in singing? etc.,etc. Some of `em used to get quite po faced about it all."
`e said "What did you do about it all, then?"
I said, "We charged `em `arf a dollar per song or tune. That slowed it all down a bit, they seemed to accept it and, of course, it was a nice little earner!!"


Whaddam I Like??


👍 -Joe O-


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Subject: RE: Singarounds: Code of Conduct
From: JHW
Date: 30 Aug 18 - 05:57 AM

This is a good discussion and thanks to Acorn but I guess that as ever he is part being serious and part taking the proverbial.


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Subject: RE: Singarounds: Code of Conduct
From: Johnny J
Date: 29 Aug 18 - 08:56 AM

I should really keep out of this discussion. It's a whole big can of worms....

Singarounds like sessions vary from location to location. They all have their own idiosyncrasies.

Personally, I don't believe in formal rules but we should all make ourselves aware of the "de facto" procedures which exist in such situations. We should also accept these when visiting a new session or singaround and behave as expected. If we don't like it(as I often don't), then it's up to us to seek our enjoyment elsewhere or start something ourselves. The latter, of course, is not always the easiest thing to do. I admit that.


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Subject: RE: Singarounds: Code of Conduct
From: GUEST,oldnickilby
Date: 29 Aug 18 - 08:45 AM

Or even a man taking Niagara (that's water tablets). It's like Viagra , only it keeps you up all night peeing


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Subject: RE: Singarounds: Code of Conduct
From: Mooh
Date: 29 Aug 18 - 07:44 AM

"3.       When going to the toilet/bar please wait until the end of the song Ė even the weakest of bladders can last out a Child Ballad Ė try to avoid going to the bar/toilet during the same personís turn twice."

Ever met a man with no prostate?

Peace, Mooh.


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Subject: RE: Singarounds: Code of Conduct
From: GUEST,oldnickilby
Date: 29 Aug 18 - 07:37 AM

We have been to Singarounds where we were not invited to sing as we had neither Tome nor Tablet, as they were unable to see the songs in our Heads
Glad you liked the joke Dave, enjoy the Hols M'Duck


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Subject: RE: Singarounds: Code of Conduct
From: GUEST,Jack Campin
Date: 29 Aug 18 - 06:49 AM

We used to have those events in the UK - it was called "community singing" and at its peak they could fill stadiums. I don't see where the "around" comes in if everybody's singing together.


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Subject: RE: Singarounds: Code of Conduct
From: JHW
Date: 29 Aug 18 - 06:10 AM

Value #5: Save a Tree: Memorize Your Song.

I've only been to one Sing(around) over the water, in Portland Oregon. There incredibly everyone had a ring binder full of every song anyone might sing so that they could all join in. When my freind (who lived in Portland) suggested they might let me (over from Emgland) on stage the assembled company was aghast that any individual should so hog the space.
May be unusual but I'll never forget it!


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Subject: RE: Singarounds: Code of Conduct
From: Rob Naylor
Date: 29 Aug 18 - 05:52 AM

Will Fly's "rules" are short, sweet and sufficient for any event I've been to:

I started a session in my village local over 10 years ago. It's still going, now under someone else's guidance, though the "rules" I set up then apply now. They're very simple:

1. Everyone is asked to lead off on a tune or a song, in order of seat. Sometimes we go clockwise - sometimes, for fun, widdershins. No-one who wants a go gets missed out, ever.

2. Duos get two goes.

3. Unless the person whose turn it is specifically wants to play/sing a solo, and says so, anyone is free to join in. I personally encourage anyone to join in with me at all times.

The whole point of the evening is to have fun, to make music communally, to listen, entertain and learn.

No big deal.


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Subject: RE: Singarounds: Code of Conduct
From: GUEST,some bloke
Date: 29 Aug 18 - 03:54 AM

Gosh, I didn't realise how much fun you could have writing up lists of rules and hoping people aren't confusing you with someone who gives a shit. Apparently pigeon fancier associations and political parties get bogged down in rules too.

You know, you could always go whole hog and set up a committee to run it. I would advise you read Orwell's Animal Farm first though.

Back in the real world, the person nudging it along decides all and decent people go along with it. You can't educate pork, so no point in trying.

Ok, just one rule. Sat flipping through your book of words you never bothered to learn or looking at your phone whilst the person next to you is trying to entertain you should be a capital offence.


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Subject: RE: Singarounds: Code of Conduct
From: Acorn4
Date: 28 Aug 18 - 06:21 PM

And once down the musician Nic, when a certain duo reached verse 42:-

"and now to conclude and to finish our song"

another certain person in the audience who had apparently been asleep since verse 12 suddenly woke up and blurted out:-

"About, bloody time too!"

For others on this thread this isn't a case of "handbags" - Old Nic and Acorn4 are in fact very close friends,


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