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BS: Does money cause delusional thinking?

Donuel 18 Jul 18 - 10:58 PM
Stilly River Sage 18 Jul 18 - 11:03 PM
Joe Offer 18 Jul 18 - 11:14 PM
Donuel 18 Jul 18 - 11:20 PM
Mr Red 19 Jul 18 - 03:31 AM
Senoufou 19 Jul 18 - 03:50 AM
vectis 19 Jul 18 - 05:31 AM
Jos 19 Jul 18 - 08:43 AM
Stilly River Sage 19 Jul 18 - 09:23 AM
Jack Campin 19 Jul 18 - 10:57 AM
Charmion 19 Jul 18 - 11:22 AM
Senoufou 19 Jul 18 - 12:22 PM
Raggytash 19 Jul 18 - 02:02 PM
Iains 19 Jul 18 - 04:05 PM
Donuel 19 Jul 18 - 04:09 PM
Joe_F 19 Jul 18 - 05:56 PM
EBarnacle 19 Jul 18 - 11:39 PM
BobL 20 Jul 18 - 02:59 AM
Jim Carroll 20 Jul 18 - 04:17 AM
Nigel Parsons 20 Jul 18 - 08:18 AM
Jim Carroll 20 Jul 18 - 09:15 AM
Senoufou 20 Jul 18 - 09:21 AM
Donuel 20 Jul 18 - 11:51 AM
Joe_F 20 Jul 18 - 05:45 PM
Steve Shaw 20 Jul 18 - 06:58 PM
Little Hawk 20 Jul 18 - 07:13 PM
Steve Shaw 20 Jul 18 - 07:17 PM
Little Hawk 20 Jul 18 - 09:58 PM
Little Hawk 20 Jul 18 - 10:56 PM
Jim Carroll 21 Jul 18 - 03:07 AM
Senoufou 21 Jul 18 - 04:12 AM
Jim Carroll 21 Jul 18 - 05:36 AM
Jim Carroll 21 Jul 18 - 05:36 AM
Senoufou 21 Jul 18 - 05:50 AM
Steve Shaw 21 Jul 18 - 08:40 AM
Jim Carroll 21 Jul 18 - 09:20 AM
Little Hawk 21 Jul 18 - 11:21 AM
Little Hawk 21 Jul 18 - 01:24 PM
Little Hawk 21 Jul 18 - 01:46 PM
ollaimh 21 Jul 18 - 10:31 PM
DMcG 22 Jul 18 - 02:26 AM
Senoufou 22 Jul 18 - 02:44 AM
Dave the Gnome 22 Jul 18 - 03:58 AM
Senoufou 22 Jul 18 - 04:13 AM
Donuel 22 Jul 18 - 10:07 AM
Steve Shaw 22 Jul 18 - 10:43 AM
Kenny B (inactive) 22 Jul 18 - 01:37 PM
Donuel 22 Jul 18 - 04:06 PM
Little Hawk 22 Jul 18 - 06:34 PM
Steve Shaw 22 Jul 18 - 06:47 PM
Donuel 22 Jul 18 - 07:23 PM
leeneia 22 Jul 18 - 10:00 PM
Donuel 23 Jul 18 - 10:25 AM
Little Hawk 23 Jul 18 - 11:20 AM
Donuel 23 Jul 18 - 06:31 PM
Little Hawk 23 Jul 18 - 07:17 PM
Steve Shaw 23 Jul 18 - 08:32 PM
leeneia 23 Jul 18 - 10:34 PM
Jim Carroll 24 Jul 18 - 02:55 AM
Senoufou 24 Jul 18 - 03:16 AM
Jim Carroll 24 Jul 18 - 03:29 AM
Little Hawk 24 Jul 18 - 01:56 PM
Steve Shaw 24 Jul 18 - 08:48 PM
Little Hawk 24 Jul 18 - 10:58 PM
Senoufou 25 Jul 18 - 02:21 AM
Jim Carroll 25 Jul 18 - 02:59 AM
Senoufou 25 Jul 18 - 03:10 AM
Jim Carroll 25 Jul 18 - 04:11 AM
Senoufou 25 Jul 18 - 05:01 AM
Iains 25 Jul 18 - 05:40 AM
Jim Carroll 25 Jul 18 - 06:16 AM
Donuel 25 Jul 18 - 06:19 AM
Charmion 25 Jul 18 - 10:17 AM
Steve Shaw 25 Jul 18 - 10:32 AM
Charmion 25 Jul 18 - 11:27 AM
Jim Carroll 25 Jul 18 - 11:56 AM
Jim Carroll 25 Jul 18 - 11:57 AM
Little Hawk 25 Jul 18 - 12:06 PM
Donuel 25 Jul 18 - 12:13 PM
Ideafarmer 25 Jul 18 - 12:26 PM
Little Hawk 25 Jul 18 - 12:47 PM
Iains 25 Jul 18 - 12:58 PM
Little Hawk 25 Jul 18 - 03:30 PM
Jon Freeman 26 Jul 18 - 08:02 AM
Charmion 26 Jul 18 - 09:08 AM
Little Hawk 26 Jul 18 - 01:31 PM
Donuel 27 Jul 18 - 07:20 AM
Senoufou 28 Jul 18 - 06:10 AM
Little Hawk 28 Jul 18 - 01:43 PM
Steve Shaw 28 Jul 18 - 01:55 PM
Senoufou 28 Jul 18 - 02:06 PM
BobL 29 Jul 18 - 03:03 AM
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Subject: BS: Does money cause delusional thinking?
From: Donuel
Date: 18 Jul 18 - 10:58 PM

"We're not just doing this job for the money, we're doing it for a SHITLOAD of money"
Starbuck in 'Spaceballs'

This joke demonstrates how easily ethics are abandoned when enormous sums of money are involved. I'm not suggesting we would do something criminal just for money, although people do every day, I'm saying a special kind of delusional thinking overtakes many people in the face of untold riches. Gold fever and inside trading are a couple of examples. Since this is a community of musicians and artists this is not going to be a big problem here. :^/

You might think this would be a good addiction to have as an all consuming raison d'etre but its not imo.
Data shows that suicides are predominant in the most successful wealthy countries compared to poor countries.

Arguments have rarely changed any minds here BUT I bet money has changed many minds.

jus tinking out loud


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Subject: RE: BS: Does money cause delusional thinking?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 18 Jul 18 - 11:03 PM

Go look up the last few weeks of the podcast program Hidden Brain by Shankar Vedantam. He talked about that recently, and it leads directly to how come Trump has no empathy for anyone but himself.


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Subject: RE: BS: Does money cause delusional thinking?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 18 Jul 18 - 11:14 PM

There definitely are some personality types for whom money is a primary or major motivator; but I think that money as a universal motivator, is highly overrated. Most people do think for other reasons, with money being one of several secondary factors.

I think that a lot of people think that other people are "doing it for the money" (although they wouldn't do it for the money themselves), but I think their perception is shallow.

Does Trump do it for the money? Partly, I think - but for him, money is a metaphor for power, and power is his primary motivator. And power gives his needy ego the self-esteem he craves.

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: BS: Does money cause delusional thinking?
From: Donuel
Date: 18 Jul 18 - 11:20 PM

For a change I don't want go in the obvious Trump direction. I want to focus on 'good poor people' and good not so poor people who may have fallen in money traps in the past.
Now for my cookie, I will check out Hidden brain. its sounds like stuff I like.


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Subject: RE: BS: Does money cause delusional thinking?
From: Mr Red
Date: 19 Jul 18 - 03:31 AM

money can make you lazy, that's fer sure. The effort of scrimping and saving is mentally taxing and years of it has given me a buffer (unless the gods dish out fates). So why not enjoy the lack of constraint?

Does that delude me? How would I know?

I was brought up by a mother who knew the privations of depression & WW2 & brought up by poor parents. And it instilled in me a pecuniary nature. But more recently I find I get more pleasure from not buying the cheapest bread etc. Though still go for on offer, close to sellby's every time. As long as it is something I would normally buy. That is a pleasure in some small way!


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Subject: RE: BS: Does money cause delusional thinking?
From: Senoufou
Date: 19 Jul 18 - 03:50 AM

The Bible (I Timothy 6-10) says 'The love of money is the root of all evil' and that those who pursue it 'pierce themselves with many sorrows'.
I think that the delusional thinking is there in the first place in some people, and the money merely fuels it. It can be a sort of addiction and obsession.

I agree entirely with Joe about power-seekers. Their pursuit of money is part of their 'syndrome'.

Money gives choices though, as Mr Red says, and removes constraints. It can buy 'pleasure' but some philosophies see a difference between 'pleasure' and 'happiness'. There is Hedonism and there is Eudaemonics.

I've always held to a firm conviction that one's money is there to be shared as much as possible. We're only stewards of what we have, and one day it will all be taken from us ('no pockets in a shroud' and all that). I've seen extreme deprivation and appalling poverty. Anything I can do (in my small way) to alleviate it a little is, to me, far better than buying luxury goods or splurging on material gewgaws!


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Subject: RE: BS: Does money cause delusional thinking?
From: vectis
Date: 19 Jul 18 - 05:31 AM

There was a lot of research done 5 or so years ago on the effects of having a monetary advantage over others.

I think they used the game Monopoly but some started with more money than others. They found that having more changed the way people played the game. Greed for more, a decrease in empathy and feelings of superiority among others.

It was then extrapolated that those who had a monetary advantage over others would exhibit those same attitudes and behaviours. I am sure that there is plenty of info out there if you look for it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Does money cause delusional thinking?
From: Jos
Date: 19 Jul 18 - 08:43 AM

The way I play Monopoly has vey little to do with the way I behave in real life. I wouldn't rely too much on such research.


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Subject: RE: BS: Does money cause delusional thinking?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 19 Jul 18 - 09:23 AM

The Hidden Brain program didn't focus just on Trump, but the connections are obvious and impossible to ignore, Don.


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Subject: RE: BS: Does money cause delusional thinking?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 19 Jul 18 - 10:57 AM

Somebody thinks this kind of waste is a good idea:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-44885983


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Subject: RE: BS: Does money cause delusional thinking?
From: Charmion
Date: 19 Jul 18 - 11:22 AM

Apart from the obvious differences of location (he's a Brit, I'm a Canadian), my upbringing had much in common with that described by Will Fly. I don't scrimp and save much any more because, thank the Lord, I now enjoy a comfortable middle-class lifestyle, but I feel something akin to pain when I see food wasted, useful things spoiled by lack of simple maintenance, and people mindlessly blowing money on stupid stuff. How do I define "stupid" with respect to stuff? Stuff that is neither beautiful nor useful, and is produced in order to cause some form of distress -- for example, Truck Nutz ... Need I say more?

In quoting the Epistle of Timothy, Eliza-Senoufou raises the central point, in my opinion; that those who pursue wealth for its own sake lose the ability to tell right from wrong. How does that happen? I think it happens because such people believe money can buy anything, including exemption from considering the needs and wants of others.


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Subject: RE: BS: Does money cause delusional thinking?
From: Senoufou
Date: 19 Jul 18 - 12:22 PM

Like Mr Red, I too was brought up by (necessarily) frugal parents just after the War. Any waste was looked on as completely wicked.

Christmas was a very simple affair, with one present each and a few treats such as a half-a-crown 'selection box' of chocolate bars or a hair-slide.
We weren't hungry or even 'poor', but in just the same boat as all our neighbours, in having little to spare.

I find myself trying not to judge millionaires who drive vastly expensive cars or wear extremely valuable jewellery. Or those who gamble away thousands. But it's hard to be charitable about them when others are actually suffering and could be helped.

And do all those material possessions make them very happy?
Does it guarantee they'll have perfect health?
Or that their spouses won't cheat on them?
Or their children will toe the line and not go astray?

It's delusional if they think money protects them from all that.


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Subject: RE: BS: Does money cause delusional thinking?
From: Raggytash
Date: 19 Jul 18 - 02:02 PM

As someone who has suffered from several severe bouts of depression I can say that I would rather be rich and depressed than poor and depressed.

Sadly I've never really been the former!


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Subject: RE: BS: Does money cause delusional thinking?
From: Iains
Date: 19 Jul 18 - 04:05 PM

What is the correct order when wishing someone health, wealth and happiness?


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Subject: RE: BS: Does money cause delusional thinking?
From: Donuel
Date: 19 Jul 18 - 04:09 PM

Raggytash, I laughed at your post then felt guilty. It reminded me of what my dad said. Whether you're rich or poor its good to have money.

The rich say the poor on the dole are lazy The poor say money makes the rich lazy

We get by on one income which is hard today. I'm lazy.

Acme the hidden brain takes a psychological POV on the creation of various models of God. Similarly I joined 3 different ancient religions for an experiential education and culturally lived in a Judeo Christian America. Far from a formal religious education my POV of a very simple man made very simple contrasts and comparisons. I won't bore others with what I learned.

As an adult I saw in general the irrational and delusional side compared to the rational side of my species was a shocking near balance irregardless of education. awkward but I go for now


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Subject: RE: BS: Does money cause delusional thinking?
From: Joe_F
Date: 19 Jul 18 - 05:56 PM

Certainly, there are some people who are so rich they think they must be smart. Donald Trump & George Soros come to mind.


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Subject: RE: BS: Does money cause delusional thinking?
From: EBarnacle
Date: 19 Jul 18 - 11:39 PM

The Chinese New Years greeting translates to "Health and prosperity in the coming year."

For an analysis of the Libertarian philosophy and how it became Dogma, I recommend "America in Chains" by MacLean, Penguin Books.


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Subject: RE: BS: Does money cause delusional thinking?
From: BobL
Date: 20 Jul 18 - 02:59 AM

Iains, if you're worried try "health, wealth and happiness, not necessarily in that order."

Money can't buy happiness, but at least it allows you to be miserable in comfort.

Harries's Sod's Law:
For happiness you need health, wealth and spare time.
In youth you have health and spare time.
In middle age you have health and wealth.
In retirement you have wealth and spare time.


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Subject: RE: BS: Does money cause delusional thinking?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Jul 18 - 04:17 AM

We live in a society that is wealthy enough for everybody to have sufficient to be comfortable
Many live below the breadline and the rich minority have more than they could possibly spend in ten lifetimes
This increasingly the case IN THE UK
Taken on a world-wide scale this increases to an OBSCENE LEVEL
The outcome of this is widespread starvation and death, wars and international log term insecurity
A society based on greed is a society that has failed and has no future
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Does money cause delusional thinking?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 20 Jul 18 - 08:18 AM

Unfortunately, Jim that will always be the case.
It is not totally unfair. Some are rich because they work harder than others, and don't squander their money, but invest it to make their position better.
Others don't work (either because they can't, or because they won't) and expect equality with those who do work.
Too many people ignore the first half of the Marxist maxim: "From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs".


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Subject: RE: BS: Does money cause delusional thinking?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Jul 18 - 09:15 AM

"Unfortunately, Jim that will always be the case."
It won't actually Nigel - if it continues to be Government policy it will destroy the system that fosters it and replace it with something else
Whether that 'something else' is better or worse remains to be seen

"From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs"."
If that "ability" is squaneded by lengthening dole queues and skilled and highly trained workers being forced to take any job on offer, from stacking shelves in Sainsburys to sweeping the streets then the second half is a meaningless achievable aim anyway
The system we live under is based on wasting the potential of the mass of humanity in the interests of profit

Every society and every class has people who are greedy by nature - once you formalise that greed into a system, it is the most greedy and ambitious (and already privileged by birth) who rise to the top
The 'From Log Cabin to White House' ethos has long been put out of reach of U.S. citizens
Here we have the exclusion of young people from working families from higher education because of school fees which has totally removed it from our lives.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Does money cause delusional thinking?
From: Senoufou
Date: 20 Jul 18 - 09:21 AM

I agree that many people have arrived at a position of wealth through their own efforts/talents/business acumen etc.
My own father worked hard to gain telecommunications qualifications when such technology was in its early days, and climbed his way up the salary scale. He eventually bought a pleasant house in London, then sold it at a huge profit to buy a bungalow in Norfolk for his retirement. If people ever said to him how 'lucky' he was, he would bite off their noses. In his view, he'd earned every penny of what he possessed, and 'luck' didn't come into it. Which was fair comment.

My concerns are:-

1) Do people actually NEED vast sums of money, in excess of their reasonable daily requirements? Is materialism a sort of addiction?

2) Do they see/know of/care about the terrible deprivation others suffer, both in UK and around the world?

3) If they do, what exactly are their strategies for giving generous, charitable aid and support?


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Subject: RE: BS: Does money cause delusional thinking?
From: Donuel
Date: 20 Jul 18 - 11:51 AM

I am impressed by the writing of Jim Carrol regarding the great human waste of talent. Unrecognized talent and ability happens due to a collective ignorance based on a societal idea of what is normal.

What is normal is what is normal to that individual. This is where delusions can grow in fertile soil for society on one hand and the individual on the other.

As for money we seem to have a sliding scale of ethics regarding getting money, in fact ethics becomes a flexible spandex that fits big and small.
Small amounts of of money like lost coins are exempt. then there is a middle ground of an amount of money that must be ethically accounted for. Finally a vast sum of wealth beyond comprehension is again untethered from ethics in my opinion. A trilion and a half givaway to corporations could be an example.

I know a person who personally knows Soros and it seemed to my friend that George is of average intelligence and an above average sense of propriety.

Trump has no sense except to lie and bully. However he is a quick study, he recently learned that Lincoln was a Republican


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Subject: RE: BS: Does money cause delusional thinking?
From: Joe_F
Date: 20 Jul 18 - 05:45 PM

I think it's wrong to call the wish for vast sums of money materialism. Only poor people want money for what it will buy. People want fortunes because the mere possession of a fortune gets one attention and power, within one's family and elsewhere.


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Subject: RE: BS: Does money cause delusional thinking?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Jul 18 - 06:58 PM

"It is not totally unfair. Some are rich because they work harder than others, and don't squander their money, but invest it to make their position better.
Others don't work (either because they can't, or because they won't) and expect equality with those who do work."

This is classic Tory Party twaddle. The richest man in the world doesn't work any harder than the girl who works nights in an old people's home, cleaning up sick and urine, changing soiled bedsheets and giving bedbaths to people with advanced dementia. He may be better educated, have been shown the tricks of the trade in a public school, have been given lifts up in life and learned how to play the system, but he does not work harder than that girl. Not in a million years. And, it could be argued, he contributes less to society than she does. A lot less. As for squandering money, she'd tell you that chance would be a fine thing. There's always the pound shop and the food bank...

As for people expecting equality, etc., well I've known very many people on low pay or who couldn't get work, not through their own fault, but because there were no jobs or because they are disabled. I haven't met a single one who "expects equality," A few months in the real world would do people like you a power of good, Niggles.
.


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Subject: RE: BS: Does money cause delusional thinking?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 20 Jul 18 - 07:13 PM

Money *itself* is delusional in our social system, since the banks simply create most of it out of thin air and then charge society a big burden of interest on top of that.


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Subject: RE: BS: Does money cause delusional thinking?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Jul 18 - 07:17 PM

Do elaborate.


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Subject: RE: BS: Does money cause delusional thinking?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 20 Jul 18 - 09:58 PM

Well, it works this way. First, everyone pretends to believe that our money is real and has real value. And they end up not just pretending...they actually believe it! They agree on that belief together. Then they all use it to buy and sell things. Quite simple, really. It just requires virtually everyone's agreement and participation in the original assumption to be workable and to have power over people's lives, kind of like the Roman Catholic Church in the medieval period or an absolute monarchy. It's a sort of formal religion (though without a deity..in the usual sense...or an afterlife), and the bankers are the high priests of that religion and creators of its "god" or "idol" to worship (the money), which works out very well for them. The government gets to make a *little* of that "god" or that idol too, in the form of some coins and paper currency that go into circulation, but that's just a tiny part of all the money that's in play. Most of it exists in the form of electronic records on balance sheets. And you knew that already. :) But you did ask for elaboration!


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Subject: RE: BS: Does money cause delusional thinking?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 20 Jul 18 - 10:56 PM

Next I can elaborate on the lyrics of some of Bob Dylan's best songs. I KNOW you'll love that! :D


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Subject: RE: BS: Does money cause delusional thinking?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Jul 18 - 03:07 AM

THe term "equality" has been a deliberately created red-herring since this society was first challenged
"Equality" is a desirable Utopia- a dream, nothing more
Another favourite red herring of the defenders of this society is "jealousy of the wealthy"

Most people may dream of being rich, but in fact all working people want is enough to live on - even just remuneration for their skills and efforts is hardly an issue nowaays
The longest and most divisive dispute in my lifetime, The Miners' Strike, wasn't about miners getting richer - it was about them keeping their jobs, homes and way of life.

Thatcher's Government, with the help of an American advisor, devised a plan to smash the Trades Unions, thereby silencing any say working people had in their lives.
The failure of that strike, coupled with the act of turning homes into commodities, marked the beginning of a repid widening of the gap between those who have too much and those who have next to nothing
That gap has now reached crisis point, with the health and education of our people in the firing line
I never thought I'd hear anybody claim that people are now "living too long" - it's fairly common to read about longevity as being a problem rather than a blessing
The real incurable sickness to day is the system

Sen
I admire your attitude to charity (I am a regular donor myself, but I look on my donations to Cancer organisations as personal insurance rather than gifts
When push comes to shove, any society that has to rely on charity is a failed one
Charity stigmatises and degrades; it may act as a sedative to a few, but in the main it does far more good to the donor than the donated-to
It is used as an excuse for not righting wrongs by those who are in the position to change things
At best, it is a stop-gap while we're waiting for a relief column that will never arrive because "there's always charity"
If it did anything serious to help those in need it would be accused of being "a disincentive for people to help themselves" and would be owtlawed
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Does money cause delusional thinking?
From: Senoufou
Date: 21 Jul 18 - 04:12 AM

Jim, I tend to agree that 'charity' may not be as effective as some people think. It does encourage dependence, and is a 'sop to Cerberus' in salving one's conscience.

That's why my sister and I select charities which enable people to become self-sufficient.

She's brilliant at finding schemes which set up small, viable businesses for women in developing countries. And those organisations which endeavour to eliminate FGM by education schemes that present a 'coming-of-age ceremony' as a better way to mark a young girl's entry into womanhood.

We contribute to some medical,sanitation and hygiene charities (she's a retired doctor and has an interest in this) which educate people about disease and its prevention.

We also support personally my large family of in-laws. Several of them (male and female) have been provided with the means to earn a living, and are now bringing in a wage from their own efforts (a tailoring shop with sewing machine, a hair-braiding salon, to give two examples)

I only write this in order to explain that we are well aware of the pitfalls in 'giving' and that none of it addresses the evil causes of poverty.
But we do what we can.

On the subject of materialism, I think that most very rich people do buy ridiculously expensive and luxurious items, such as several fancy cars, jewellery, £1000 handbags and other designer trash, and even private jets and/or yachts. I've said on here before how we visited Harrrods in London for a laugh, and saw some headphones encrusted with diamonds costing £20,000. Now that IS materialism.


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Subject: RE: BS: Does money cause delusional thinking?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Jul 18 - 05:36 AM

Glad to hear it Sen
Ireland is the most charitable place I've ever encountered
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: Does money cause delusional thinking?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Jul 18 - 05:36 AM

Glad to hear it Sen
Ireland is the most charitable place I've ever encountered
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: Does money cause delusional thinking?
From: Senoufou
Date: 21 Jul 18 - 05:50 AM

Ah yes Jim. Our Irish mum was the kindest, most giving person ever.
She always looked forward to the arrival of the traditional Romany travellers early each Spring (They had horse-drawn, painted vans, very interesting and attractive) and saved clothing, knitted items and suchlike, plus tins of food, to give to the lady at the door.

We hadn't much money in those days, but she shared what she had.
My father used to laugh, because every time, the lady would draw some sort of secret chalk sign on our gatepost upon leaving. My mother reckoned it was a 'blessing', but my dad said it meant, "Here lives a complete sucker!"


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Subject: RE: BS: Does money cause delusional thinking?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Jul 18 - 08:40 AM

Little Hawk, if I can take my fiver to Sainsbury's and buy a bottle of wine that I can enjoy at home, that five pound note undeniably had value. There's nothing inherently evil or undesirable about money per se. It's a convenient way of facilitating the exchanging of goods and services without always having to barter or provide like-for-like. Money requires everyone to have faith in it. Generally, it works that way very well. Like other Good Things (including my bottle of wine) it's open to abuse. But that's people, not money.


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Subject: RE: BS: Does money cause delusional thinking?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Jul 18 - 09:20 AM

" "Here lives a complete sucker!"
You disappoint me if you believe giving to charity is being a sucker
People who beg do so usually because they need to
The problem is not the begging but why it is needed

My interest in Irish social history has opened up a whole new world on this subject
Begging became a widespread necessity during and after the famine and many groupds took advantage of that fact
Protestant missionaries set up soup schools where pupils were given food if they persuaded their parents to attend Catholic Mass - they are still remembered as 'soupers'
On the other hand, Quakers stepped in and set up food distribution centres and supervised the workhouses the British Government had abandoned our of Cristian duty

The infamous Magdalene were set up to help 'fallen women', but where used both to promote religion and to provide slave labour.

The reason for charities may not have been of the best, but the idea of giving took root in the minds of the Irish people
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: Does money cause delusional thinking?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 21 Jul 18 - 11:21 AM

Agreed, Steve. The problem is not the money itself, because it's a very useful way of enabling the exchange of goods and services. The problem is how the privately owned banks have taken over most of the creation OF the money...in the form of debt...through fractional reserve lending...thereby enriching themselves at the expense of the rest of society, and by this means they have gradually gained control over governments and societies in the last few centuries by putting them into enormous debt TO the banks and thus controlling them. So, as you say, it isn't the money itself that's the problem, but like other good things (including your bottle of wine) it's open to abuse. The system of fractional reserve lending should never have been allowed to develop in the way it has. This was not the fault of money itself. It was an error originally made by governments in regards to how to regulate the banks, and it is by now completely out of control. The largest corporations are likewise taking control of societies, again due to various forms of de-regulation that have allowed them to....and this was accomplished by they and the banks buying off the politicians. Not the fault of money itself, but the fault of corruption in high places.


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Subject: RE: BS: Does money cause delusional thinking?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 21 Jul 18 - 01:24 PM

So...no, money does not necessarily cause delusional thinking, but delusional thinking does tend to misuse and abuse money (and many other things).


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Subject: RE: BS: Does money cause delusional thinking?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 21 Jul 18 - 01:46 PM

And pure profit-seeking by very large business entities, profit-seeking which is devoid of any concern for the welfare of the common people, society in general, and the health of the planet...that kind of delusion (along with the wars it inevitably leads to) is presently the greatest threat to our collective future on this planet.


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Subject: RE: BS: Does money cause delusional thinking?
From: ollaimh
Date: 21 Jul 18 - 10:31 PM

the whole of american mainstream culture is about money and war, as is english. yes they are totally delsuional. they are impervious to the idea that they ever did a wrong thing, =or they find others flaws and then two hundred wrongs make a right.

laissez faire caoitalism, which is really military capitalism, rose with the shittish empire to commit more atrocities than nazis, but the usa is catching up fast. the present refugee crisis on the american southern border is the direct result of american backed, trained armed anf unded coups and insurections, to try and take native land for american companies or their local alies. this has resulted in the deaths of hundred of thousands since the reagan years.   the guatemalean regime of rios monte alone murdered about a quarter million mayan natives with full funding, training backing and support of the reagan adminstration and the greed driven religious right ssuch as falwell, pat robertson.

most american seem totally unaware that the greed of their coprorations has caused this.

the obama adminstration over threw the elected government of haiti twice and rigged the elections in hiondouras and continues to suport the murder squads who murder natives who try and keep their land.

yeah greed greed greed andd war war war is what america and england have been about since laissez faire capitalism


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Subject: RE: BS: Does money cause delusional thinking?
From: DMcG
Date: 22 Jul 18 - 02:26 AM

My own father worked hard to gain telecommunications qualifications when such technology was in its early days, and climbed his way up the salary scale. He eventually bought a pleasant house in London, then sold it at a huge profit to buy a bungalow in Norfolk for his retirement. If people ever said to him how 'lucky' he was, he would bite off their noses. In his view, he'd earned every penny of what he possessed, and 'luck' didn't come into it. Which was fair comment.

I agree with all that, Sen. I have no doubt of the hard work, and that the benefits from it were earned.

But there is still far more luck in it than it first seems. Take, for example, how the how prices between London and Norfolk changed. That was luck. And take the choice to study telecoms rather than other equally attractive subjects around at the time that turned out to be dead ends. For example, when I was still at school I visited the local Technical College (now a University). They had different courses for people studying digital computers and analogue computers. And, at the time, it was not clear that one would become massively dominant and the other virtually disappear. Those who were 'lucky' chose one course and those who were 'unlucky' chose the other.

Luck - or as I would prefer to say, chance - plays a huge part in all our lives, whether we are successful or not.


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Subject: RE: BS: Does money cause delusional thinking?
From: Senoufou
Date: 22 Jul 18 - 02:44 AM

I entirely see your point DMcG.

One could say he was lucky to have enjoyed robust health all his life; to have married a woman who supported him in his ambitions and encouraged him, who knew how to economise and oversee a well-run household; to have been born with brains; to have lived in the new technological age, where opportunities abounded just after the War; to have been white; (I'm not being racist, but Britain was in those days!)
and so on.

But I do think his struggles and determination merit some recognition. He wasn't born to wealthy parents, and could have spent every evening down the pub (he never did that) He wore the same old overcoat for years so that we girls could have the school uniform, and tired though he was after work, he continued to study. It must have been hard, and His good character saw him through.

Rich people also may have struggled to rise in the business world. They may have started from humble beginnings, have had excellent business acumen and management skills and used them to good effect.

I'm not considering how they became rich, but what they're doing with their wealth once acquired.
They often seem blinkered to the rest of the world, and like Trump feel little compassion for the 'Strugglers'.

There ARE philanthropists of course, but anyone who is interested in spending £20,000 on some headphones rather than, say, endow a malaria clinic in W Africa is in my view delusional.


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Subject: RE: BS: Does money cause delusional thinking?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 22 Jul 18 - 03:58 AM

Tressel's "ragged trousered philantropists" gives some of the best explanations of how things should work and, depressingly, why they never will. In my opinion.


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Subject: RE: BS: Does money cause delusional thinking?
From: Senoufou
Date: 22 Jul 18 - 04:13 AM

Excellent and thought-provoking book Dave.

I see exploitation every day.

My husband works full time for the minimum wage, cleaning toilets and scrubbing floors in a large high school and sixth-form college. His annual salary is about £11,000 after deductions. Pitiful in fact, although he loves his work and is proud to be employed.

They've 'kindly' offered him some extra days' work during the school holidays, up ladders painting walls and ceilings with emulsion in some of the classrooms.
He was very pleased to accept, as it will give him a (very) few extra pounds to send to his family.

I said nothing, but it occurred to me that he has no qualifications at all as a painter/decorator; he's never in his life wielded a paintbrush. However, he costs the Council a mere £7-80 an hour for his toil, while a contracted decorator would want much more than that.
They're not daft are they?

I just wonder what the high-ups on the Council get paid?


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Subject: RE: BS: Does money cause delusional thinking?
From: Donuel
Date: 22 Jul 18 - 10:07 AM

I started reading the Guardian and related materials when I was 13. They did not celebrate greed and war like Madison Ave. and Hollywood.
The reports confirmed what my parents said about the Viet Nam war.
The more I learned about my country's history the less I wanted to contribute to the legacies of war for greed while excluding the need to counter Hitler in WWII. We walked for civil rights martyrs, demonstrated against the Nixon Viet Nam war and served my country in a non profit manner. But my country became erringly suspicious of my modus operendi and unleashed the FBI, CIA and attack dogs of the IRS to stymie my quest for change. Even the Catholic church got in on the action in an unsuportive stance. While I earned no more than a teacher the attempts to silence the word 'hypnosis' were truly conspiratorial. For a time I was suspected of being a spy.
While the government has its aged agenda I have given no material, financial or tax support legally to the government for the last 30 years. (a concept unimagined by Steve)

There is such a thing as luck, such as surviving a 107 fever but even more dependable than luck is choice by conscience. I said no to two small fortunes before I had children which I now regret but we make our choices be they foolish in hindsight or brave into the future. As a blue eyed golden child I have probably merely countered the advantages of institutionalized racism.

I have enjoyed what LH, Jim, Sen and others have had to say.
But then again I enjoy Mad Magazine and their usual gang


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Subject: RE: BS: Does money cause delusional thinking?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Jul 18 - 10:43 AM

I can imagine all your concepts as long as they're simply stated, Donuel. I can't match all that but I did have fun in the late 80s when my phone was tapped. We had a Saturday CND stall in Loughton and the police filmed us from the top of a building opposite.


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Subject: RE: BS: Does money cause delusional thinking?
From: Kenny B (inactive)
Date: 22 Jul 18 - 01:37 PM

Secrets of Silicon Valey - A glimse of the Future

I think this is relevant in this thread for those who havnt seen it on UK TV


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Subject: RE: BS: Does money cause delusional thinking?
From: Donuel
Date: 22 Jul 18 - 04:06 PM

I do not think all the cyber villainy was pre meditated.
Sometimes evil creeps in on kitten paws of best intentions.
Cheating and winning is an addictive high for some. Silicon Valley and the malice of forethought Wall Street have many shared crossroads.



Steve I appreciate a constructive editor regarding my condensed deliberate creative use of language for posts but you are not my editor for simply screaming 'more clarity please'. It may irk you but I do not think you will ever understand that your ego is not the boss. If you did, your ego would be destroyed which in your case would be anathma for 'you'. If you remember I wrote pages in an attempt to introduce you to the mindset.
Wrote the Steven: "Non Comprende'"

Impressionists and psycho theorists do not color inside the lines. Hey have you heard the new performance of Beethoven's 9th that takes 24 hours instead of 90 minutes? It is pitch correct but tempo extreme. It is by Aron Zim.

I liked it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Does money cause delusional thinking?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 22 Jul 18 - 06:34 PM

He doesn't appreciate Bob Dylan either! It's shocking. Just shocking.


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Subject: RE: BS: Does money cause delusional thinking?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Jul 18 - 06:47 PM

I don't scream, neither am I irked. I'm a serial shrugger. I tend to disregard posts that unnecessarily give me mental processing to do before I see the point. Life's too short. Let your speech be yea yea, nay nay, Donuel.

Dylan is your problem, Little Hawk. Attend more to Woody and Beethoven is my advice. And no performance of the Choral ever made anything like 90 minutes.


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Subject: RE: BS: Does money cause delusional thinking?
From: Donuel
Date: 22 Jul 18 - 07:23 PM

I could have been writing from what my ego dictated. I may actually be too scared to compete on a career life or death daily basis. shrug.


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Subject: RE: BS: Does money cause delusional thinking?
From: leeneia
Date: 22 Jul 18 - 10:00 PM

Money causing delusions?

On a recent tour I saw the empty site of a splendid home on a Florida island. It had been built by the brother and partner of Andrew Carnegie as a summer home. It was inherited by his grand-daughter, who when old, would rouse her sons and grandsons to go out at night and shoot at poachers. (They could see the poachers' campfires.)

One night a bullet got a poacher in the leg. Not long after, the mansion was burned down - I hope when nobody was in it. Everybody on the tour but me gave a sigh. I thought, "I'm not surprised."

What is it about being super-rich that made them think they could shoot guns at tough, isolated, illiterate country people and get away with it? What made them think they could risk murdering someone over a lousy deer?


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Subject: RE: BS: Does money cause delusional thinking?
From: Donuel
Date: 23 Jul 18 - 10:25 AM

In the absnce of effctive law and justice there is a kind of tribal be acutelythat is the 'they had it comin' defense. Acme may be acutely aware of this biblical 'defense'.
(Lividicus "He who killith a man shall be put to death", Exodus 'He who smiteth a man will surely be put to death', an eye for an eye, a mansion for a wound etc.

Vengence is justified by religion more than by civil and criminal law.
It is a main reason the founding fathers needed to separate church and state.
The wealth of the perpetrator is probably less relevent than the ordering of the shooting at poachers which is still an everyday savage reality regarding the wildlife of Africa.

There are few wealthier than Wall St. Banks and to be honest, they have it comin.


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Subject: RE: BS: Does money cause delusional thinking?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 23 Jul 18 - 11:20 AM

Most of the major religions emphasize in their core teachings *not* to take vengeance, although this goes directly against the inclinations of the normal human ego! (And that's why most people take vengeance anyway...not because of religion, but because they simply *want* to.) It is true, of course, that eye for eye and tooth for tooth vengeance was recommended in the Old Testament, since that reflected the primitive ways of the Hebrew tribal culture at the time...say 4,000 years ago...but the message Jesus brought two thousand years later was exactly the opposite to that. He recommended mercy, kindness, and forgiveness. This has, however, been conveniently ignored by the majority of Christians ever since, because they are far less interested in what Jesus actually taught than they are in their own baser and more immediate inclinations! And then they blame their own viciousness upon the religion???? Fie, I say! Fie! Get thee to thine whitewashed sepulchers, thou hypocrites!!!   (grin) Jesus would be disgusted with you, just as he was with the religious hypocrites of his own era.


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Subject: RE: BS: Does money cause delusional thinking?
From: Donuel
Date: 23 Jul 18 - 06:31 PM

For people who get high off vengence will invent (delusionally) a vengful situation to get the pique payoff from vengence. Most revenge is delusionally based on an invented moral good. Psuedo revenge is based on virtual damage that is imagined.

Real revenge is different




There is no one so reliable as he who will sell their loyalty for money DT


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Subject: RE: BS: Does money cause delusional thinking?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 23 Jul 18 - 07:17 PM

It is people of good character and of courage who are reliable. I've known a few.


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Subject: RE: BS: Does money cause delusional thinking?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Jul 18 - 08:32 PM

Bit of a failure then, Jesus, eh, Little Hawk?


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Subject: RE: BS: Does money cause delusional thinking?
From: leeneia
Date: 23 Jul 18 - 10:34 PM

The question before the court is "Does money cause delusional thinking?"

I say that in the case of the Carnegie descendants, it did. I can't imagine them collecting guns and hunting people down in the dark of night if they had been people of modest income living in towns or on farms. No, their money and their mansion made them think they were above the law.


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Subject: RE: BS: Does money cause delusional thinking?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Jul 18 - 02:55 AM

"What made them think they could risk murdering someone over a lousy deer?"
They didn't - they employed someone to do it for them - their job was to make and control the laws of the country that allowed them to do it, laws which sent people to their deaths or into exile for the crime of attempting to keep their families from starving

One of the most remarkably influential books I have ever read is the little known 'The Long Affray, - the poaching wars in Britain' by Harry Hopkins.
Up to then, I'd treated the subject separately, mainly because it fed into my interest in traditional songs
Having read it, I realised it involved a huge swathe of of our history, the seizure of Common Land which began in the 13th century and continued steadily right up to the present day, where common land is still being taken and privatised.
Land that had been used to feed people fell into the private hands of the very rich who used it for privacy, personal pleasure and investment to obtain influence and social status.
The most intense of these seizures - 'Enclosures' was during the Industrial Revolution, where people who had been using commons and open land to grow food and take game to supplement pittance wages found themselves punished by heavy fines, imprisonment and Transportation to Australia to be used as degraded slaves - all for the heinous crime of attempting to feed their families.

As the Enclosures intensified, so did the opposition in the form of Poaching Wars
The occurrence of one man going our and being opposed by one gamekeeper gradually rose to armed groups numbering twenty, thirty or more a side shooting it out in the woods, basically starting around the middle of the 18th century, right up to the beginning of World War-One
Echoes of these wars broke our again in England just after WW2, when walkers in the North of England went out in organised protesting groups and faced-off armed gamekeepers employed to 'protect their masters' land' to keep it safe for hunting, shooting or fishing, and little else.
I was delighted to be introduced to some of these people one night in MacColl's Singers Club in the 1980s - still proud, fiery rebels in old-age.

Ownership of land has been the major cause of dissent throughout history, from international wars to inter and inner family crises
Some of our most beautiful folk songs came from the time when power was passing from the hereditary landed gentry to the rising class of craftsmen and merchants - the new rich.
A good looking daughter wasn't just something to show off to your friends, but 'money in the bank' - a 'good marriage' was a step on the power ladder, so you made sure she didn't run off with 'the rough' but was kept safe as a negotiable asset.
Our folk-song repertoire is full of the (mainly tragic) family disputes which basically boil down to money

Sorry to bang on about this - I've been thinking about it a lot lately during the arguments about who made our folk-songs, which, I believe, are a vital part of our social history
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Does money cause delusional thinking?
From: Senoufou
Date: 24 Jul 18 - 03:16 AM

I think Jesus is all very well, but there are cases of absolutely unpardonable wickedness which merit no 'mercy' whatsoever.

For example, a few days ago, a man threw concentrated acid into the face of a three year-old child in a shop in Worcester. The infant screamed in agony and his face and arm were terribly burned. It's thought it was a 'family feud'. Eye for an eye? I'd have torn his head off!

Regarding the rich landowners, there are many National Trust properties in Norfolk which we enjoy visiting. But grand and imposing as they are, the quarters for their servants were evidently the most miserable, mean and meagre areas of the house. Tiny attic rooms (freezing in winter and boiling in summer) with hard beds and so on, and the service rooms (kitchens, laundry etc) down in the basement, damp and unhealthy.

The owners obviously had no interest or fellow-feeling in providing some comfort and pleasant surroundings for their minions. And the folk in the surrounding villages had lives of deprivation and poverty.
It's certain that the rich folk's sense of entitlement overrode any 'Christian' tenets of compassion.

'The rich man in his castle
The poor man at his gate,
He made them high or lowly
And ordered their estate.'

In other words, they had a God-given right to their wealth.

Interesting that this verse of 'All Things Bright And Beautiful' was surreptitiously dropped at a later date!


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Subject: RE: BS: Does money cause delusional thinking?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Jul 18 - 03:29 AM

"In other words, they had a God-given right to their wealth."
This was extended internationally with the "Imperialist Hymn" we were still being made to sing in the 1950s, 'From Greenland's Icy Mountains'
There, to be non-English was to be "in error's chain"
Religion is a dangerous thing in the wrong hands
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: Does money cause delusional thinking?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 24 Jul 18 - 01:56 PM

I don't know if Jesus was "a failure" or not, Steve. It depends on what he had in mind to achieve at the time. (and I don't think he was intending to found a new "Christian" religion, but rather to reform the existing religion and social order in that region) I do know he got executed for bravely opposing the corrupt religious authorities of his day, though, so I'd call him a "hero" or even a "martyr", not a failure. I think what the religious bigwigs of his time would have called him, in private, was "a dangerous radical", and such people often get executed by those in power. Whether they are "failures" or not is entirely subjective to whoever is casting the judgement upon them.

I gather you're not too impressed by the Christian historical record. Well, neither am I. But I don't blame Jesus for that. I blame human nature for that. The power seekers corrupted the religion, just as they do with our governments and our business practices, etc. You might say that the "scum" rises to the top...(with the occasional exception here and there).


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Subject: RE: BS: Does money cause delusional thinking?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Jul 18 - 08:48 PM

When it comes to historical record, I try to be objective. You write assuming that Jesus existed and was involved in all the things he was alleged to have been involved in. That's a bit troubling for me. The Romans wrote everything down in great detail, thank goodness, yet we have to scrabble around furiously to find any contemporary writings at all that mention Jesus, and the few we do find are, at best, not exactly definitive. Ho hum. Just thought I'd mention it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Does money cause delusional thinking?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 24 Jul 18 - 10:58 PM

I doubt that Jesus, during his brief life in Palestine, raised even a single blip on the radar back in Rome, Steve. There were a lot of Jewish prophets roaming around Palestine in those unstable times, and the local Jews were certainly interested in many of them to some extent, but I think the Romans were not...unless they were recommending a Jewish uprising against Rome in their preachings, and Jesus was not doing that, according to what's written about him. Therefore he did not matter to the Romans until some considerable time later in their history, so why would they have written about him? He was a nobody to them when he died. I know it would properly make you very happy to think that Jesus never existed...as it would thereby invalidate the entire religion that is based on him. It would make it a mockery based on nothing. And you'd love that, I'm sure. So enjoy assuming he did not exist. Enjoy it to the full. It cannot be proven or disproven anyway, and your enjoyment of that supposition won't change a thing.

To counterbalance it though, I have this thought. Religions always (or virtually always) seem to arise out of the personality and activities of ONE particularly inspired person who attracts a number of faithful followers, and it is those closest followers who generally set about establishing and spreading the religion. They figure it's their sworn duty to, because they imagine they have "the answer" to everything that matters. This happens again and again. I've even seen exactly how it happens...on a relatively small scale. It takes one very charismatic leader to get the ball rolling that starts a new religion or a specific religious order, monastery, Ashram, etc. I regard the idea that Jesus did NOT exist...and that the whole Christian religion still arose in his name and based on his life story ANYWAY...to be about as unlikely as that Buddha or Zoroaster or Deganawida or Quetzalcoatl or any other such founding figures of religious antiquity never existed...or about as likely as that the Earth is flat and the Moon made of a very large Edam Cheese. Religions, like nations and businesses, do not arise on the basis of non-existent founders.

But if you've emotionally committed to the idea that he didn't exist, which I think you are, then nothing I can say will make any difference to that, and we'll just waste a lot more keystrokes over it to no advantage for either of us (as is already happening...predictably). :D So, believe whatever you like about it. I hardly think it matters.


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Subject: RE: BS: Does money cause delusional thinking?
From: Senoufou
Date: 25 Jul 18 - 02:21 AM

I agree with all that, Little Hawk.
My husband gets very confused when I tell him that Jesus was NOT a Christian, but a Jew!

Jesus told many parables about rich men being stingy and getting their just deserts later. He seemed to be very sympathetic to the poor.

I think it all boils down to one's attitude to one's fellow men. One can be rich yet do a lot of good and be generous and philanthropic. Or one can be miserly and hard-nosed, having no care at all for those less fortunate.

And it's all relative really. There's always someone poorer to be helped and encouraged along. The worst-off here in UK would be regarded as kings by some of the struggling folk I saw in Africa.

So one can't say that the money itself makes people nasty. They were probably like that to start with!


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Subject: RE: BS: Does money cause delusional thinking?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Jul 18 - 02:59 AM

I remember an argument on this forum where it was explained to us atheists that the parable comparing a rich man trying to get into Heaven with "a camel passing through the the of a needle" didn't really mean what it said
All very confusing
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: Does money cause delusional thinking?
From: Senoufou
Date: 25 Jul 18 - 03:10 AM

I watched an interesting programme about the Holy Land recently, and it was explained that one of the ancient gates ( called 'The Eye Of The Needle') into Jerusalem was tall but very narrow, and a loaded camel would be hard-pushed (literally!) to pass through. So the goods would have to be off-loaded first. Thus the analogy was that a rich man's 'goods' would have to be jettisoned before he'd get in to heaven.


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Subject: RE: BS: Does money cause delusional thinking?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Jul 18 - 04:11 AM

"( called 'The Eye Of The Needle')"
I heard that one too Sen
It sounded very much like an excuse for rich people staying rich - in context, it doesn't make sense - It means I'll have to get rid of all my books before I go, in which case, I'm not going!!
You want to hear the excuses some Christians give for being allowed to kill people rather than obey the obvious calls of pacifism in the Bible
Doesn't particularly persuade a non-believer to change his mind :-)
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: Does money cause delusional thinking?
From: Senoufou
Date: 25 Jul 18 - 05:01 AM

Christians throughout the centuries have been notorious for invading various countries and systematically slaughtering the 'heathen' inhabitants (eg the Conquistadors and the Crusaders) Incredibly cruel and wicked, especially as they considered themselves to be entirely justified by their religion. (This applies of course to other religions too)
To get back to entitled and delusional rich people, I suppose if someone has become accustomed to immense wealth and luxury, they inevitably see the world as a huge pigs' trough in which to gorge continually ('because they can'). It would be quite an effort to give up some of that and perform good works with their dosh.

Also, if one frequents only the playgrounds of the wealthy (posh hotels, resorts, casinos, yacht clubs etc) one doesn't come much into contact with any other type of person. And one cares even less...


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Subject: RE: BS: Does money cause delusional thinking?
From: Iains
Date: 25 Jul 18 - 05:40 AM

Senoufou
Babylonian Talmud They do not show a man a palm tree of gold, nor an elephant going through the eye of a needle
or from Fallujah. "Are you from Pumbedita, where they push an elephant through the eye of a needle?"
Cyril of Alexandria claimed that "camel" is a Greek misspelling; that kamêlos (camel) was written in place of kamilos, meaning "rope" or "cable". More recently, George Lamsa, in his 1933 translation of the Bible into English from the Syriac, claimed this as well.

Taking the accepted biblical interpretation The eye of a needle refers to a postern gate, of which there are a number in the walls of Jerusalem of uncertain antiquity.
A postern gate is a small gate typically used after nightfall when the main gates would be closed. It would be narrow, easily defended, and no doubt be a a challenge even for an unladen camel.


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Subject: RE: BS: Does money cause delusional thinking?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Jul 18 - 06:16 AM

Didn't know that Iains
THanks
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Does money cause delusional thinking?
From: Donuel
Date: 25 Jul 18 - 06:19 AM

I'm thinking the old saying shout the rich passing through the eye of a needle is dried up and silly. Digital billions of dollars pass through that needle to hidden off shore accounts daily. &^/


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Subject: RE: BS: Does money cause delusional thinking?
From: Charmion
Date: 25 Jul 18 - 10:17 AM

The delusion of the rich is that they worked hard and earned it, and therefore deserve the privileges only money can buy. Anyone else who wants to be rich can do the same.

I think Jesus' point in the line about the camel and the needle is that people who have accrued enough dosh to be considered rich have probably overlooked or deliberately ignored so many opportunities to do a mitzvah that their afterlife prospects are kinda dim. He makes that point most memorably in Matthew: "Lay not up for yourselves treasures upon earth, where moth and rust doth corrupt, and where thieves break through and steal: But lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust doth corrupt, and where thieves do not break through nor steal: For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also." Likewise, Jesus looks down on those who want praise for doing good: "So when you give to the needy, do not sound a trumpet before you, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and on the streets, to be praised by men. Truly I tell you, they already have their reward."


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Subject: RE: BS: Does money cause delusional thinking?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Jul 18 - 10:32 AM

Er, I'm not emotionally tied to the idea that Jesus possibly didn't exist. Were there proof of his existence it wouldn't trouble me at all, though it would certainly throw into sharper focus the pack of lies peddled about his alleged miraculous doings. And, er again, he was put to death, so the story goes, by Rome, so he did matter. In fact, as I understand it the putting to death of a Jewish rebel by Rome around that time has one of the stronger claims to veracity.


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Subject: RE: BS: Does money cause delusional thinking?
From: Charmion
Date: 25 Jul 18 - 11:27 AM

Whether or not he existed (and I rather think he did), the character of Jesus as presented by the writers known to us as the Four Evangelists is a source of rather a lot of good sense expressed in pithy sayings. Divine or not, the teaching is sound.


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Subject: RE: BS: Does money cause delusional thinking?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Jul 18 - 11:56 AM

I've not long watch a re-run of Melvin Braggs interviewing two of the Monty Python team regarding the reception 'Life of Brian' received when it was released - they really were "very naughty boys"
I'm afraid I'm having difficulty discussing
Jim religion seriously at present :-)


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Subject: RE: BS: Does money cause delusional thinking?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Jul 18 - 11:57 AM

Sorry - my finger slipped
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: Does money cause delusional thinking?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 25 Jul 18 - 12:06 PM

Yes, the teaching is ethically sound, and quite challenging, because it challenges people's normal and nastier character flaws such as selfishness and vengefulness and suggests a more loving approach to life.

There's definitely some good stuff in there to consider, if one is willing to.

To "lay up treasures in heaven" refers to having treasures of consciousness...as opposed to having material treasures. You can have all the material treasures imaginable and still be miserable, fearful, depressed, angry, vengeful, etc...in other words, you're rich in the world's terms...but you're still unhappy.

But if you are truly happy, in love with life and others and yourself, and at peace within...then you have treasures of consciousness. And that appears to be what Jesus was aiming at in his teachings. They were all about improving one's own consciousness...which then leads to improved behavior in regards to self, life, and others. This is the main point in all the great spiritual teachings and traditions. They are primarily about improving consciousness, since the quality of one's own consciousness is the key to living a positive and useful and happy life.

We were talking about money, weren't we? :) Well, money is just a unit of exchange, and that's a very useful thing to have...it's just that the power of creating it should have been reserved ONLY for governments (who create debt-free money), rather than placed (mostly) in the hands of the privately-owned banks, who are creating ever-increasing amounts of debt-based money out of thin air by lending to governments and the private sector, and thereby making themselves very rich by perpetrating a vast pyramid scheme on all modern societies with their debt-based money. That's why your dollars or your pounds buy less and less real stuff per unit of currency as the years go by. The banks have what amounts to their own "money tree" or digital printing press. They are able to create infinite amounts of new money (plus the interest owed on it!) at will and hold societies hostage through debt, and that should never have been allowed to happen.


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Subject: RE: BS: Does money cause delusional thinking?
From: Donuel
Date: 25 Jul 18 - 12:13 PM

Delusion is a kind of imagination. Great wealth of Elon Musk inspires real projects to be built as imagined possibilities become real.
Great wealth of a casino owner has the imagination to build more casinos. The qualities of the captain who charts the course for the new destinations for what wealth can create is what matters.


Evil wealth built on war vs. good wealth built on sustainability is an example of bad rich vs. good rich.


Genius good rich is what I'd like to see.


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Subject: RE: BS: Does money cause delusional thinking?
From: Ideafarmer
Date: 25 Jul 18 - 12:26 PM

An observation related to the original question. I have had exposure to a lot of business scammers and their unfortunate victims. The scammers are usually narcissists to some degree but have a trait shared by many successful businesspeople: they see the society/commerce as a game with winners & losers and money as the way to keep score. When someone loses their home or can't feed their kids, it's really nothing personal. The scammers would expect them to get back up and stick it to someone else, cuz that's how things work.

Trump & his ilk aren't delusional. They just think they're playing Monopoly and they're not getting stuck with Baltic Ave.


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Subject: RE: BS: Does money cause delusional thinking?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 25 Jul 18 - 12:47 PM

Virtually everyone in politics all across the world is playing that same pragmatic game....but some are in a more delusional state than others.


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Subject: RE: BS: Does money cause delusional thinking?
From: Iains
Date: 25 Jul 18 - 12:58 PM

Jim when I was a kid I was dragged around numerous castles in the Welsh Marches, and later lived in the Wye Valley, and went around many more. As a result I became reasonably familiar with the names for the various bits of a castle. postern being one such term

Getting back to the thread Joe has several times expressed the view:
"Do as you would be done by."
Many strive to that ideal, but others actively fight against such behaviour, in order to achieve supremacy. Money simply offers a very versatile weapon in such a pursuit.
Some people are good
some not so good
a minority are downright evil

Money merely enables such traits to be enhanced, although for another personality type it can also change and corrupt them.


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Subject: RE: BS: Does money cause delusional thinking?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 25 Jul 18 - 03:30 PM

True.


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Subject: RE: BS: Does money cause delusional thinking?
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 26 Jul 18 - 08:02 AM

Money is just (or can be) a symptom. I think it is obsessive desire for the material things that can cause the problems. This can manifest itself in several ways including wanting to be the “richest”, “most powerful” and finding ways to look down on those who are less successful.

I’d probably be at odds with many here on a couple of issues that I normally choose not to go into but in other ways, maybe quite socialist in outlook? Certainly, if I had God like powers, I’d design a world in which not a single person, regardless of whether they shared my views, had to worry about food, housing, education and health care.

But of course, to move onto Sen’s introduction of Christianity is this thread. I don’t do that well, tend to get bogged down in my own problems, etc. And I don’t know anyone who if down to two coats would give one away….

One line in Christianity (which OK many here do not accept – fair enough and, even many of those that do often seem to ignore) runs a sort of judgement day, abridged a bit but…

Then the King will say to those on His right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. For I was hungry and you gave Me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave Me something to drink, I was a stranger and you took Me in, I was naked and you clothed Me, I was sick and you looked after Me, I was in prison and you visited Me.’

Then He will say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave Me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave Me nothing to drink,I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, I was naked and you did not clothe Me, I was sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.’

Some atheists even fare a lot better than some Christians on this..

(Jon still trying to learn, with differing views on some things over the years, etc.)


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Subject: RE: BS: Does money cause delusional thinking?
From: Charmion
Date: 26 Jul 18 - 09:08 AM

Yep, Jon Freeman, there's yet another of those pithy sayings loaded with good sense.

Long ago, I stopped paying much attention to the religious labels people put on themselves and others in favour of observing their behaviour. There's a parable about a fig tree that covers it; atheists or Trappists, Rastafarians or Chasidim, Brahmins or animists, by their fruits shall ye know them.


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Subject: RE: BS: Does money cause delusional thinking?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 26 Jul 18 - 01:31 PM

Just so.


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Subject: RE: BS: Does money cause delusional thinking?
From: Donuel
Date: 27 Jul 18 - 07:20 AM

S0me robber barons are in a race to own the most expensive yacht. A Billion dollar boat is the holy grail.
Betsy DeVoss ' Secretary of Education ' has 10 yachts.


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Subject: RE: BS: Does money cause delusional thinking?
From: Senoufou
Date: 28 Jul 18 - 06:10 AM

I see that the Duke and Duchess of Suffolk attended a polo event (the Sentebale Cup match) at the Royal Berkshire Polo Club, in order to raise funds for the children of Lesotho who suffer from HIV and AIDS.
The Duchess wore an ensemble costing around £3000.

Why can't these people buy 'normal' clothes? I saw many elegant and pretty dresses for sale for about £200 in our store called Jarrolds in Norwich, when I had a look round their wedding outfits department.

This is an example of delusional thinking. I suppose they congratulate themselves for their efforts for charity, but £3000 would buy all sorts of medication/equipment/clothing etc for an African child in need.
In fact, £3000 would be an absolutely huge sum to my in-laws in Cote d'Ivoire.
They haven't a clue these royals have they?


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Subject: RE: BS: Does money cause delusional thinking?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 28 Jul 18 - 01:43 PM

They are simply meeting the expectations of those in their immediate circle. Ask Penelope Rutledge about that.


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Subject: RE: BS: Does money cause delusional thinking?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 Jul 18 - 01:55 PM

" I saw many elegant and pretty dresses for sale for about £200 in our store called Jarrolds in Norwich..."

Blimey, these shorts cost thirteen quid, these sandals cost £12.75, both items from Mountain Warehouse, this shirt is a ten quid Asda George special and my boxers are five pairs for eight quid at Asda, and this lot is my POSH gear...


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Subject: RE: BS: Does money cause delusional thinking?
From: Senoufou
Date: 28 Jul 18 - 02:06 PM

Steve, all my clothes are extremely cheap and cheerful (and I've had them for years!) I wasn't looking in Jarrolds for myself, but husband went off to the loo and I was having a look at the 'posh frocks' while I waited.
They had some lovely designs which would have done for a royal lady. Sort of mother-of-the-bride stuff I suppose. Certainly nothing above about £200.
Also, I have a very nice, small, plain handbag which would go with anything. It cost £6 in Wroxham.

I'm not saying the lassie should get her stuff from the charity shops (although there's nothing wrong with those). Just that it's such hypocrisy to be prancing about in all that wealth and at the same time feeling one is doing good works for African orphans.


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Subject: RE: BS: Does money cause delusional thinking?
From: BobL
Date: 29 Jul 18 - 03:03 AM

"The Duchess wore an ensemble costing around £3000",

And where did that £3000 go? Not into a black hole - it paid the wages of dressmakers, milliners, designers and others who created the outfit, and presumably not in sweat-shop conditions. Blame, if you like, the convention that royalty is expected to wear a new outfit for every public appearance.


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