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Obit: RIP Billy Graham (1918-2018)

Joe Offer 27 Feb 18 - 04:57 AM
Kenny B (inactive) 27 Feb 18 - 04:45 AM
The Sandman 27 Feb 18 - 03:43 AM
Nigel Parsons 27 Feb 18 - 02:51 AM
Joe Offer 26 Feb 18 - 09:13 PM
Steve Shaw 26 Feb 18 - 07:31 PM
The Sandman 26 Feb 18 - 05:46 AM
Steve Shaw 26 Feb 18 - 05:17 AM
punkfolkrocker 26 Feb 18 - 03:17 AM
Steve Shaw 25 Feb 18 - 09:30 PM
bobad 25 Feb 18 - 09:19 PM
Steve Shaw 25 Feb 18 - 08:48 PM
Iains 25 Feb 18 - 05:48 AM
bobad 24 Feb 18 - 08:59 PM
Steve Shaw 24 Feb 18 - 08:48 PM
bobad 24 Feb 18 - 08:36 PM
Steve Shaw 24 Feb 18 - 08:23 PM
Joe Offer 24 Feb 18 - 06:48 PM
Steve Shaw 24 Feb 18 - 06:45 PM
Joe Offer 24 Feb 18 - 06:16 PM
Joe Offer 24 Feb 18 - 05:55 PM
Greg F. 24 Feb 18 - 05:51 PM
Greg F. 24 Feb 18 - 05:19 PM
Iains 24 Feb 18 - 05:14 PM
Steve Shaw 24 Feb 18 - 05:14 PM
Senoufou 24 Feb 18 - 05:12 PM
The Sandman 24 Feb 18 - 04:57 PM
Jackaroodave 24 Feb 18 - 04:23 PM
David Carter (UK) 24 Feb 18 - 04:09 PM
Jeri 24 Feb 18 - 04:04 PM
Senoufou 24 Feb 18 - 03:56 PM
Greg F. 24 Feb 18 - 03:50 PM
Joe Offer 24 Feb 18 - 02:43 PM
Jackaroodave 24 Feb 18 - 11:08 AM
bobad 24 Feb 18 - 10:26 AM
Greg F. 24 Feb 18 - 09:42 AM
Donuel 24 Feb 18 - 06:42 AM
Iains 24 Feb 18 - 06:19 AM
Steve Shaw 24 Feb 18 - 06:10 AM
Joe Offer 24 Feb 18 - 05:54 AM
Steve Shaw 23 Feb 18 - 09:44 PM
Joe Offer 23 Feb 18 - 09:18 PM
Steve Shaw 23 Feb 18 - 08:59 PM
bobad 23 Feb 18 - 07:33 PM
Steve Shaw 23 Feb 18 - 07:30 PM
Greg F. 23 Feb 18 - 06:29 PM
Greg F. 23 Feb 18 - 05:48 PM
Pete from seven stars link 23 Feb 18 - 05:31 PM
Senoufou 23 Feb 18 - 09:28 AM
Steve Shaw 23 Feb 18 - 08:27 AM
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Subject: RE: Obit: RIP Billy Graham (1918-2018)
From: Joe Offer
Date: 27 Feb 18 - 04:57 AM

I think it's time to close the thread. Too much squabbling. Say goodnight, Gracie...


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Subject: RE: Obit: RIP Billy Graham (1918-2018)
From: Kenny B (inactive)
Date: 27 Feb 18 - 04:45 AM

Dear Sandman I hate to disagree with you but if Jim did know everything he would take a balanced view of things and not have to keep repeating his bigoted and hypocritical views.


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Subject: RE: Obit: RIP Billy Graham (1918-2018)
From: The Sandman
Date: 27 Feb 18 - 03:43 AM

Jim knows, he uses the phrase all the time, he also knowseverything


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Subject: RE: Obit: RIP Billy Graham (1918-2018)
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 27 Feb 18 - 02:51 AM

From: Steve Shaw

What other kinds of corpses are there, Dick? :-)
(responding to a comment about "kicking a dead corpse")

It depends whether you're using the word with its current or its archaic meaning.


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Subject: RE: Obit: RIP Billy Graham (1918-2018)
From: Joe Offer
Date: 26 Feb 18 - 09:13 PM

Jim Carroll says:
    It's not so much what Graham said Joe - you can hear his 'message' in fundamentalist churches in any part of the world
    It's more what he was and why he stood above his fellow fundamentalists
    For me, he epitomised the toxic mix of POLITICS and RELIGION


Hi, Jim- As I've said above, I think Billy Graham was far more reasonable than the fundamentalists. His message did not convey their harshness and judgmentalism.

But as for your saying "he epitomised the toxic mix of POLITICS and RELIGION," I think you're absolutely correct. Whenever government and religion are in bed together, there's trouble. They do well when they serve to check each other - but when they're both giving the same message, there's trouble. And in the U.S., Billy Graham was an especially powerful spokesman for Republican Presidents.

We U.S. Catholics have had churchmen who have tried to play the same role, with varying levels of success. Timothy Cardinal Dolan of New York is the latest Catholic Billy Graham wannabe.

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: Obit: RIP Billy Graham (1918-2018)
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Feb 18 - 07:31 PM

What other kinds of corpses are there, Dick? :-)


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Subject: RE: Obit: RIP Billy Graham (1918-2018)
From: The Sandman
Date: 26 Feb 18 - 05:46 AM

Jim Carroll kicking a dead corpse, really unusual, Jim have you heard of hypocrisy


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Subject: RE: Obit: RIP Billy Graham (1918-2018)
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Feb 18 - 05:17 AM

I blame brexit for all of it.


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Subject: RE: Obit: RIP Billy Graham (1918-2018)
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 26 Feb 18 - 03:17 AM

Now come on... if it's good enough for god to be 3 different people at the same time - "Father, Son, Holy Spirit"..

..and on top of that he's only flippin' omnipresent...

So, who knows how many other IDs and accounts he has all over the universe, let alone the bleedin' internet...!!!???

..and he's only just one of the franchises of big deities..

There could a whole bunch of them ancient crafty rival holy shit stirrers
infiltrating, interfering, and trolling twitter, facebook, and forums... ??????


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Subject: RE: Obit: RIP Billy Graham (1918-2018)
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Feb 18 - 09:30 PM

No lie. You were two people, one bobad, one guest, same IP address. I know how much this revelation must upset you. When you stop being such a hypocrite, I'll stop mentioning it.


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Subject: RE: Obit: RIP Billy Graham (1918-2018)
From: bobad
Date: 25 Feb 18 - 09:19 PM

Still with the same old lie eh Shaw, you're nothing but a cowardly, lying bully so you know what you can do with your pathetic threats.

PS I too have PMs from mods that speak to your character and they're not flattering.


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Subject: RE: Obit: RIP Billy Graham (1918-2018)
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Feb 18 - 08:48 PM

Would you like me to publish the proof that you were posting as two people at once in order to slag off people you wanted to call Jew-haters, Bobad? 'Twas you who was the coward, old fruit, taking full advantage of the anonymity indulgence of this forum
that you eventually helped to get stopped (even you have your uses!). I had a mod checking you out. You were both bobad AND an anonymous guest at the same time, switching to the latter when you wanted to name-call. No slander, eh? It's all on record. That's the trouble with these 'ere forums, innit. What you post is here forever! You're bang to rights, pal! Take it up with him if you don't believe me. You and that there Guest, same IP address. And I do tend to not delete messages, unfortunately!


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Subject: RE: Obit: RIP Billy Graham (1918-2018)
From: Iains
Date: 25 Feb 18 - 05:48 AM

The net worth of Billy Graham.


https://www.nolanchart.com/billy-franklin-graham-men-of-god-or-just-the-highest-paid-religious-ceos
Psalm 41:1 - Blessed are those who have regard for the weak; the Lord delivers them in times of trouble.

Proverbs 19:17 - Whoever is kind to the poor lends to the Lord, and he will reward them for what they have done.

Isaiah 58:7 - Is it not to share your food with the hungry and to provide the poor wanderer with shelter - when you see the naked, to clothe them, and not to turn away from your own flesh and blood?

Isaiah 58:10 - And if you spend yourselves on behalf of the hungry and satisfy the needs of the oppressed, then your light will rise in the darkness and your night will become like the noonday.

Matthew 5:42 - Give to the one who asks you, and do not turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you.

Luke 14:13-14 - But when you give a banquet, invite the poor, the crippled, the lame, the blind, and you will be blessed. Although they cannot repay you, you will be repaid at the resurrection of the righteous.

Luke 21:3-4 - 'Truly I tell you, he said, 'this poor widow has put in more than all the others. All these people gave their gifts out of their wealth; but she out of her poverty put in all she had to live on.'

Hebrews 13:16 - And do not forget to do good and to share with others, for with such sacrifices God is pleased.

Yeah, Right!


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Subject: RE: Obit: RIP Billy Graham (1918-2018)
From: bobad
Date: 24 Feb 18 - 08:59 PM

Lol Shaw, still clinging to your pathetic attempt to slander....... I wouldn't expect anything less from the likes of you......
coward.


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Subject: RE: Obit: RIP Billy Graham (1918-2018)
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Feb 18 - 08:48 PM

Well, bobad, at least he didn't pretend to be an anonymous guest (whilst retaining his logged-in identity) in order to call people Jew-haters. And don't try to deny it. I have lots of your posts under both identities and a note from a mod confirming your double identity via your single IP address. The day you stop being such a hypocrite is the day I'll stop mentioning it, I promise. Go on, have a little swear. It's what you always do, after all.


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Subject: RE: Obit: RIP Billy Graham (1918-2018)
From: bobad
Date: 24 Feb 18 - 08:36 PM

Oh dear not again.......poor Greg.


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Subject: RE: Obit: RIP Billy Graham (1918-2018)
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Feb 18 - 08:23 PM

Yeah, right.


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Subject: RE: Obit: RIP Billy Graham (1918-2018)
From: Joe Offer
Date: 24 Feb 18 - 06:48 PM

I dunno, Steve, why can't you contact Greg by PM? Maybe he'll give you some well documented and easily accessible examples...
Or maybe it's a technical glitch. Mudcat has been a little weird the last hour or so.
-Joe-

    Oh, it looks like he got put on the bench for being nasty. I suppose he'll be back, but that's not my decision.


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Subject: RE: Obit: RIP Billy Graham (1918-2018)
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Feb 18 - 06:45 PM

Why can't I contact Greg by PM, please, Joe?


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Subject: RE: Obit: RIP Billy Graham (1918-2018)
From: Joe Offer
Date: 24 Feb 18 - 06:16 PM

ignorant, intolerant, abusive, anti-Semitic bigotted piece of shit who consistently lies and whose postings aren't worth shit

Well, that's not what I said, but if the shoe fits....


But yeah, Greg, it's really kind of ridiculous to try to participate in a discussion forum without any attempt to provide information to back up assertions.

Let me quote you once again: WELL DOCUMENTED AND EASILY ACCESSIBLE EXAMPLES, some of which have already been ceted in this thread. If you can't be bothered to educate yourself I can;t be arsed to take the time to try to educate you. In adition, its not "my" opinion; its a widely held majority opinion.

And you DID say that, Greg.

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: Obit: RIP Billy Graham (1918-2018)
From: Joe Offer
Date: 24 Feb 18 - 05:55 PM

Well, the funny thing is that I never liked Billy Graham very much. I just thought the extreme condemnations from certain people here are unwarranted - and tend to make rational discussion impossible.

I object to seeing so many threads, especially threads that mention religion, being taken over by one-sided rants from a small group of bullies.

-Joe Offer-


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Subject: RE: Obit: RIP Billy Graham (1918-2018)
From: Greg F.
Date: 24 Feb 18 - 05:51 PM

For the record, Greg., I didn't delete your post.

For the record, Joe, I didn't suggest you did. And yet, its gone.

you said the same thing in this post, only in more civil language.

Ah, so now we have The Mudcat Language Police to contend with? And its OK to call someone an ignorant, intolerant, abusive, anti-Semitic bigotted piece of shit who consistently lies and whose postings aren't worth shit as long as one uses "civil language"???

Jesus wept, Joe. Listen to yourelf.


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Subject: RE: Obit: RIP Billy Graham (1918-2018)
From: Greg F.
Date: 24 Feb 18 - 05:19 PM

Are you incapable of disagreeing on a forum without becoming aggressively rude and insulting?

You might care to direct that question at Joe, Sen. Apparently you haven't been reading his posts of the last sevaral weeks on several different threads wherein he's been consistently aggressively rude and insulting to me. Just because he uses language a bit more "genteel" doesn't change the fact.

Of course, as a mod of sorts he can get away with all sorts of shit that others cannot.

I think he thrives on a steady diet of hatred.

Jeri, I assume you're referring to Bobad. Or is it Bruce?


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Subject: RE: Obit: RIP Billy Graham (1918-2018)
From: Iains
Date: 24 Feb 18 - 05:14 PM

What a well brought up little lad he is. A shining example to us all.
Must be taking a lead from jimmie.


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Subject: RE: Obit: RIP Billy Graham (1918-2018)
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Feb 18 - 05:14 PM

The quote in italics in Joe Offer's post was a direct riposte to his accusation that I'm an absolutist (his usual desperate resort, and always a pretty ridiculous one). That context is vitally important in understanding what I was trying to say, but, just as bible-quoters often do, the context was left behind. There is not only one correct answer, Joe. I must have said a hundred times down the years that I'm on the fence when it comes to God, admittedly not quite with one testicle on each side, of course. Neither you nor I has any kind of correct answer. The difference between us is that I prefer to put the rational case for seeking explanations that fit the laws of nature (and what beauty and diversity there is in nature that needs no extra layer of the supernatural imposed on it!) whilst you prefer to eschew that approach in favour of your perceived "deeper truths" and "sacred beliefs," an approach that immunises you against my sort of reality. That's all. As a thinking Catholic you are one of the more benign manifestations of religion, most of which is decidedly non-benign. But even you won't dissociate yourself from passing on your unsupported beliefs to children. I care not a jot about people's dearly-held beliefs, but I do care an awful lot about the ways in which children are forced to join the club long before they can think it out for themselves and how they are bombarded with the notion that they just happen to have been born into the one and only true faith. That's me when it comes to religion. No bitterness, no absolutism. Show us that you can say the same. And, while you're at it, keep your head.


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Subject: RE: Obit: RIP Billy Graham (1918-2018)
From: Senoufou
Date: 24 Feb 18 - 05:12 PM

What??? I missed that! Crumbs, I can't believe anyone could be so rude and abusive.
Joe, I have sent you a PM.


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Subject: RE: Obit: RIP Billy Graham (1918-2018)
From: The Sandman
Date: 24 Feb 18 - 04:57 PM

not just bugger off but also he told him to fuck off.


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Subject: RE: Obit: RIP Billy Graham (1918-2018)
From: Jackaroodave
Date: 24 Feb 18 - 04:23 PM

Joe, please check your messages.

Thanks.


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Subject: RE: Obit: RIP Billy Graham (1918-2018)
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 24 Feb 18 - 04:09 PM

Joe is right, and if you are ever to have any kind of conversation with these people you have to understand how they think. Trust me, I am related to some. Telling them to bugger off is an option, but not one I want to use with family. The difficult in conversation is their unshakeable belief that their opinions are put there by God. "God wants you ........", no its you who want that, not God. God becomes an excuse for unreasonable opinions.


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Subject: RE: Obit: RIP Billy Graham (1918-2018)
From: Jeri
Date: 24 Feb 18 - 04:04 PM

I think he thrives on a steady diet of hatred. Maybe should go somewhere else.


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Subject: RE: Obit: RIP Billy Graham (1918-2018)
From: Senoufou
Date: 24 Feb 18 - 03:56 PM

Greg, how dare you tell Joe to 'bugger off'???? That's absolutely unacceptable. Are you incapable of disagreeing on a forum without becoming aggressively rude and insulting?


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Subject: RE: Obit: RIP Billy Graham (1918-2018)
From: Greg F.
Date: 24 Feb 18 - 03:50 PM

Amazing. Or not. Yet another disappearing post.

Well, Joe, let me reprise something that you Huckabee Sanders-ed right over.(Have you been taking lessons from her, by the way?)

Were I to post a thousand indisputable facts it wouldn't alter your pre-conceived, self-important, intolerant and bigited point of view one iota. Pounding salt would be a great deal more productive for me.

Thanks for your time. Now you can bugger off. Life's too short.

As I suspect will be the lifetime of this post.


    For the record, Greg., I didn't delete your post. I am highly reluctant to delete posts because of objectionable content. But you said the same thing in this post, only in more civil language.
    -Joe Offer-


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Subject: RE: Obit: RIP Billy Graham (1918-2018)
From: Joe Offer
Date: 24 Feb 18 - 02:43 PM

Hi, Jackaroodave. Just as Greg can't make points in a debate by simply averring that what he says is the truth. Here's his standard explanation for why he can't be bothered to provide facts: WELL DOCUMENTED AND EASILY ACCESSIBLE EXAMPLES, some of which have already been ceted in this thread. If you can't be bothered to educate yourself I can;t be arsed to take the time to try to educate you. In adition, its not "my" opinion; its a widely held majority opinion.

Now, I don't want you to go down that same purple path, so let me tell you that there is a right way and a wrong way to use links. If all you do is post a link, your link will be totally disregarded by most people. I find it most ludicrous when people try to start a thread with only a link, no explanation. Yes, there will be some people who will join in and carry on quite a conversation without actually saying anything - but the vast majority of people will simply pass the whole thing by.

If you post a link, post an explanation with it - either an excerpt from the linked material, or better yet a summary in your own words. Links should be used to support what you have to say, not to provide the essence of your point of view.


I suppose what makes me nervous about born-again Christians, is their extreme and simplistic view of the total depravity of human nature, and their belief that they can be saved simply by expressing a belief in Jesus. They base all this on one verse from the conversation between Jesus and Nicodemus, John 3:16. And from that, the most simplistic of the born-agains conclude that they who have stated this belief are saved, and all others are damned.

In other words, if you say you believe the right thing (if you have the correct ideology), you're OK. Everybody else is damned. That's more-or-less the converse of the same thing my friends the born-again atheists are saying - all those evil people believe in things that are incorrect, so they are worthy of condemnation.

Steve Shaw says: I should think that a bloke who predicates his life on the unsupportable belief in a superior being who can exist only by breaking every law of nature and for whose existence there is not a single scrap of evidence, and who exacerbates that stance by claiming that his God is the one and only true God, and who bitterly attacks anyone who dares to ask penetrating questions or express scepticism about that belief, represents the epitome of the perfect absolutist.

Steve's really good at argumentum ad absurdum,. He redefines and oversimplifies his opponent's position in ridiculous and inaccurate terms, and then condemns the opponent for what he claims the opponent is saying. Greg takes this a step further and jumps right to the condemnation, without making any attempt to support his conclusions. And the end point for both Greg and Steve, is that they gotta condemn somebody. The extremists among the born-again Christians have the same end: they gotta condemn somebody.

One other thing these "born again" people have in common: they insist that there is only one possible correct answer to any given question. In their absolutist world, there is no room for doubt or for a variety of valid perspectives - and they cannot possibly respect anyone who does not possess the one, right answer.

The born-agains try to make their condemnations credible by saying that God said what they say is so, so it must be true. I give Steve and Greg credit for saying things on their own authority, but it still ends up the same: they gotta condemn somebody.

I'll admit it is quite inconvenient and time-consuming to have to rely on facts to carry on a discussion, but that's the only thing that works. You can't read just the last three pages and say you've read a book.

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: Obit: RIP Billy Graham (1918-2018)
From: Jackaroodave
Date: 24 Feb 18 - 11:08 AM

Joe: "Greg_F can [can't?] actually cite anything Graham said or did that was actually objectionable. So, I guess Greg's opinion is worthy of disregard."

Greg: "Graham's career is replete with WELL DOCUMENTED AND EASILY ACCESSIBLE EXAMPLES, some of which have already been cited in this thread. . . .If you can't be bothered to educate yourself I can;t be arsed to take the time to try to educate you."

I'm always DELIGHTED to provide on-line citations to help interlocutors in the community educate themselves ;)

But maybe that's because I'm relatively new here and naive: I sympathize with Greg, as my links seem to be rarely used, almost never by those whose need is greatest ;)

Anybody got something new to say about him who has recently gone to join the choir invisibule?


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Subject: RE: Obit: RIP Billy Graham (1918-2018)
From: bobad
Date: 24 Feb 18 - 10:26 AM

who call anyone who disagrees with their idiosyncratic opinions a "bigot" and/or an "anti-Semite".

Not my opinions Greg but the widely accepted definition but it's clear why you would try to make it my opinion.


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Subject: RE: Obit: RIP Billy Graham (1918-2018)
From: Greg F.
Date: 24 Feb 18 - 09:42 AM

Greg_F compared Billy Graham to Hitler, Pol Pot, and Francois "Papa Doc" Duvalier

No, Joe - I compared your campaign to whitewash Graham and escuse his well-documented negatives with whitewashing those other gents.

Greg_F can actually cite anything Graham said or did that was actually objectionable. So, I guess Greg's opinion is worthy of disregard.

Absolute bullshit, Joe, from many different perspectives. Graham's career is replete with WELL DOCUMENTED AND EASILY ACCESSIBLE EXAMPLES, some of which have already been ceted in this thread. If you can't be bothered to educate yourself I can;t be arsed to take the time to try to educate you. In adition, its not "my" opinion; its a widely held majority opinion. "Christians"[sic] of Graham's stripe -and those like yourself who enable, defend, and excuse them- are, thank God, a minority.

Besides, you don't actually mean to say that any citations I might provide would actually change your mind, do you? Or that you'd do anything other than ridicule them?. You have an extreme aversion to being confused with the facts once you've adopted a stance however idiotic.

Maybe they're insecure and the only way they can maintain the illusion of security is by attacking others

Sanctimonius git.

The only people I cannot respect, are those who live their lives to attack and denigrate and ridicule others.

You must have a terribly difficult time living with yourself then, as
your contributions to this thread - and others - demonstrate that you regularly engage in just that behavior.

Anyone else note the irony of how the self righteous absolutism of Shaw and Greg

Amusing, in a disgusting sort of way, considering the "self righteous absolutism" of folks who call anyone who disagrees with their idiosyncratic opinions a "bigot" and/or an "anti-Semite".


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Subject: RE: Obit: RIP Billy Graham (1918-2018)
From: Donuel
Date: 24 Feb 18 - 06:42 AM

Catholics have projected a progressive image in America for 40 years.
The Berrigan brothers come to mind.

Its hard to imagine beating a nuclear weapon with sledge hammers.
Nuns protested the death penalty. Latin was no longer required in services. Oh my god - guitars were allowed in church!

I would only expect that Joe would reserve his ire for Nazis and people in the Klan. Evangelism is an anything goes tax free excuse for religion imo.

It is fear that sells in the born again 'scrapture'.
One learns how to hate what they fear.
We are awash in fear and tribalism today NOT because of Catholicism.


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Subject: RE: Obit: RIP Billy Graham (1918-2018)
From: Iains
Date: 24 Feb 18 - 06:19 AM

Thank goodness indeed!


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Subject: RE: Obit: RIP Billy Graham (1918-2018)
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Feb 18 - 06:10 AM

Thank goodness we don't know anyone round here like that then, Joe.


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Subject: RE: Obit: RIP Billy Graham (1918-2018)
From: Joe Offer
Date: 24 Feb 18 - 05:54 AM

Well, I guess I don't know what you're talking about Yes, the closest I can come to describing myself is to say I'm a progressive Catholic. I'm interested in most honest forms of religious and philosophical thought - particularly Judaism, Islam, and Buddhism. Born-again Christians make me nervous because I see their thinking as shallow and narrow, but I do my best to deal with them with respect because I think they're mostly sincere.

The only people I cannot respect, are those who live their lives to attack and denigrate and ridicule others. I suppose they have reason for their intolerance. Maybe they're insecure and the only way they can maintain the illusion of security is by attacking others. But I can't have sympathy with their insecurity, because they express it by being unfair to others.

-Joe Offer-


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Subject: RE: Obit: RIP Billy Graham (1918-2018)
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Feb 18 - 09:44 PM

"I'm a progressive Catholic..."

Words, words, words, Joe. At times you talk as if you regret that you can't invoke the heresy laws against the likes of Greg and me. By your FRUITS do we know thee, Joe.


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Subject: RE: Obit: RIP Billy Graham (1918-2018)
From: Joe Offer
Date: 23 Feb 18 - 09:18 PM

Well, Greg_F compared Billy Graham to Hitler, Pol Pot, and Francois "Papa Doc" Duvalier - not that Greg_F can actually cite anything Graham said or did that was actually objectionable. So, I guess Greg's opinion is worthy of disregard.

True, Graham opposed gay marriage, but not in the vehement and abusive and disrespectful way that other televangelists did. But yeah, gay marriage is still hard for conservative Christians to accept.

As had been said before, Graham and Martin Luther King, Jr., were longtime friends, and Graham was an early opponent of segregation. They had occasional disagreements, but they remained friends. Graham also disagreed with King's opposition to the Vietnam War. I didn't agree with King about this at first, but I soon came to oppose the war and considered filing as a conscientious objector. I enlisted as an Army German linguist instead.

I would say that Graham was an Evangelical Christian, but not a fundamentalist. He was conservative, but he did not espouse the right-wing politics and judgmentalism and prejudice that is common among fundamentalists. For the most part, Graham seemed to be a reasonable person, and dealing with him and his followers seemed possible.

I've always been kinda nervous around Evangelical Christians, who have a long history of condemning us Catholics for all sorts of stuff. I teach a Bible study every Monday. One day, a woman came in from nowhere and castigated us Catholics for the way we teach the Ten Commandments - we number them differently, and we leave out the "graven images" clause because we're unwilling to blow up the Pieta. Another woman came another time and gave us hell for referring to Mary Magdalene as "Apostle to the Apostles" because she announced the Resurrection to the 12 Guys. So, I've been used to being denounced by conservative Christians for trivial matters.

So, when I went to a Billy Graham Crusade to check it out, I expected to be rejected. But I wasn't, and I learned that Billy Graham made efforts to include as many people as he could in his campaigns. He was conservative, but he was far more inclusive than the others. I still didn't feel like the crusade was my kind of religion, but at least I didn't feel rejected.

I'm a progressive Catholic, and I fit in well with "mainline" religions like Episcopalians and Lutherans and Methodists and Congregationalists. I've studied Judaism and Buddhism and Islam, and I've learned a lot from them. I feel very comfortable with non-theistic people who don't make a practice of attacking people who have some sort of religious belief.

But I have trouble with Evangelical Christianity and its usually-simplistic belief system. It would be very easy for me to condemn Evangelicals like Billy Graham.

But the main issues I'm working on now, are homelessness and immigration and jail reform. Let me let you in on a little secret: large numbers of homeless people, immigrants, and jail inmates in the U.S. are conservative Christians. If I want to serve these people, I have to relate to them and repect them - and I can't do that if I revile their religious beliefs.

So, what do I do? Convert? I do my best to respect conservative Christians, but it's awkward. I try to stay away from ideology, and look at persons and ideals and values. Compared to most evangelicals, Billy Graham was much easier to accept.

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: Obit: RIP Billy Graham (1918-2018)
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Feb 18 - 08:59 PM

Absolutism? Jayz, tbe man is cosying up to Joe now! Clench thy buttocks and clench 'em tight, Joe! With friends like that.,.


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Subject: RE: Obit: RIP Billy Graham (1918-2018)
From: bobad
Date: 23 Feb 18 - 07:33 PM

Anyone else note the irony of how the self righteous absolutism of Shaw and Greg mirrors that of characters like Graham, Swaggart and Falwell?


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Subject: RE: Obit: RIP Billy Graham (1918-2018)
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Feb 18 - 07:30 PM

If I've said it once, Pete, I've said it a hundred times. I care not a jot about people's beliefs, no matter how irrational, as they keep them to themselves. I personally harbour a terribly irrational belief in Liverpool FC, but, gods though they are, with their figurehead the greatest God of all, Shankly, I have a good deal of competition in the guise of the likes of the deluded supporters of Man U and Man City. But we all realise that we revere our personal god only because of the accident of our birth and family traditions, and all of us will quietly and discreetly enjoy the merits of our adversaries as long as they play good footie. Christ almighty, I'll even watch Chelsea (that's me off to confession in the morning...). That would be like you going to the Friday Prayers and joining in, Pete. We sort of pretend to hate each other's guts but we share a common love for the beautiful game, the only true God. Your religions are not like that. You have a one true God that's different to everybody else's, according to your "sacred" texts; you can't agree on whether the host is the true body or not; you go to wars with each other, you have heresy laws, you burn each other at the stake or cut off each other's heads or murder those you deem guilty of apostasy. We might endure a bit of rough stuff at the Shed End (I lived next door to it for two years) but our religion draws the line right there at the exit turnstile and we are normal for the whole of the next week. You are not. You pretend to "live your faith," despite its egregious bigotry and intolerance and the fact that you have no evidence for its basis in truth, for the whole week.

And that's Billy Graham for you, down to a tee. Every speech promising non-existent certainties. And we don't need to mention his cosying up to Nixon and Reagan, do we?


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Subject: RE: Obit: RIP Billy Graham (1918-2018)
From: Greg F.
Date: 23 Feb 18 - 06:29 PM

I'm not by any means saying that Billy Graham worked in this way,

That is EXACTLY how Graham and his clones worked and work.


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Subject: RE: Obit: RIP Billy Graham (1918-2018)
From: Greg F.
Date: 23 Feb 18 - 05:48 PM

it is really about his belief in God ...that he and Greg really object to

Bullshit, Pete. Go back to your 6000-year-old earth, please, and leave tha adults alone.


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Subject: RE: Obit: RIP Billy Graham (1918-2018)
From: Pete from seven stars link
Date: 23 Feb 18 - 05:31 PM

And so Steve gets to the heart of the matter. Whatever faults or virtues Billy had , it is really about his belief in God , and his preaching of the gospel that he and Greg really object to . And as they have not quoted exactly what was said about LGBT people , I suspect it was in line with the bible , but without animosity. Joe is being very fair about this . He even agrees with much of the criticism , but he does not share the venom exhibited by dome of mr Graham's detractors.


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Subject: RE: Obit: RIP Billy Graham (1918-2018)
From: Senoufou
Date: 23 Feb 18 - 09:28 AM

There is a huge 'Christian' evangelistic movement in Nigeria, with massive meetings in stadia. Tons of money can be (and is) made. They prey on superstition and fear of 'possession by the devil' causing terrified adherents to pay for quite violent exorcisms. If they don't subscribe, they risk being excluded/persecuted by their neighbours. Some of the wealthiest Nigerian 'ministers' drive around in luxurious new cars and are actually expected to look opulent.
I'm not by any means saying that Billy Graham worked in this way, but it isn't just in the USA that these type of movements exist.


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Subject: RE: Obit: RIP Billy Graham (1918-2018)
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Feb 18 - 08:27 AM

Joe, absolutists don't go around simply asking for evidence to calm their scepticism. I should think that a bloke who predicates his life on the unsupportable belief in a superior being who can exist only by breaking every law of nature and for whose existence there is not a single scrap of evidence, and who exacerbates that stance by claiming that his God is the one and only true God, and who bitterly attacks anyone who dares to ask penetrating questions or express scepticism about that belief, represents the epitome of the perfect absolutist. It's a word you tend to bandy around rather unwisely, I feel. And you sound far more bitter about it all than the bitterest of those fallen ex-Catholics that some of you steadier Catholics seem to worry about so much.


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