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BS: Catalonia: pros and cons of separation

Tradsinger 05 Oct 17 - 03:15 AM
Teribus 05 Oct 17 - 03:12 AM
Joe Offer 05 Oct 17 - 03:01 AM
Kampervan 05 Oct 17 - 02:58 AM
Joe Offer 05 Oct 17 - 02:57 AM
Teribus 05 Oct 17 - 02:55 AM
Monique 05 Oct 17 - 02:51 AM
Kampervan 05 Oct 17 - 02:16 AM
Joe Offer 05 Oct 17 - 01:12 AM
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Subject: RE: BS: Catalonia: pros and cons of separation
From: Tradsinger
Date: 05 Oct 17 - 03:15 AM

Under Franco, Catalan culture and Catalan language were surpressed. You could be punished for speaking Catalan in the street or in school, so there has been for some time a repressed resentment of the Madrid government.

I personally am very wary of this movement towards independence - the argument seems to be that as Catalonia creates a lot of wealth for the Spanish nation, that the Catalans think they ought to keep it for themselves. Fair or not? Is there more stability in unity?

And what does Catalonia consist of? Linguistically it stretches into France (Perpignon) and Andorra, and related dialects are also spoken in Valencia and the Balaeric Islands. Does the UDI move include them?

I blame Brexit for all this mess - be careful what you wish for.


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Subject: RE: BS: Catalonia: pros and cons of separation
From: Teribus
Date: 05 Oct 17 - 03:12 AM

A lot of people died all over the place Kampervan, left to the UN alone many thousands more would have died. In Bosnia and in Kosovo the Germans managed to urge NATO (Military) action (This meant at the time it cut France out of the loop) and NATO intervention saved thousands of lives.

In Catalonia had the Spanish Government stuck to just declaring the recent referendum illegal and non-binding then given and aided every facility for the said referendum to go ahead peacefully the result would have been for Catalonia to remain as part of a unified Spain. As it is, by their actions they have promoted the cause of independence and bought themselves a shed load of trouble in the years to come.


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Subject: RE: BS: Catalonia: pros and cons of separation
From: Joe Offer
Date: 05 Oct 17 - 03:01 AM

Specifics, Kampervan? Were these central European nations NATO members?


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Subject: RE: BS: Catalonia: pros and cons of separation
From: Kampervan
Date: 05 Oct 17 - 02:58 AM

A lot of people died in central Europe over the last few decades whilst NATO stood by and did nothing.


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Subject: RE: BS: Catalonia: pros and cons of separation
From: Joe Offer
Date: 05 Oct 17 - 02:57 AM

Hi, Kampervan -
I think the United States spends far too much money on defense, and I wish there were another way. If Catalonia and other small states can be part of the EU and NATO, I think they can defend themselves at a reasonable cost.
But I sure wish the US could spend less on defense and more on healthcare and education and other social needs.
-Joe-


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Subject: RE: BS: Catalonia: pros and cons of separation
From: Teribus
Date: 05 Oct 17 - 02:55 AM

The UN may well be accurately described as "toothless" as it has no army to call on. In the face of actual aggression however NATO has proved to have been the most effective multinational military alliance in the history of the planet - it still is.

The EU Commission's desire for a Federal United States of Europe relies on the break up of the existing member states into regions and the eradication of the nation state and national identity. Only trouble with that is that at present they rely on financial contributions from individual member states to run the show.

In Spain the following regions may opt for "independence" along with EU membership which of course would mean that they were not independent at all - Catalonia, Galicia and the Basque Region of Spain.

In France - As Iains pointed out there is a separatist movement in Brittany, there is also a French Basque region.

In Belgium - Wallonia and the Flemish Regions would part company at the drop of a hat.

In Germany - Bavaria would be only too happy to break away

In Italy there is a clear divide North and South and also Sardinia.

In the UK the SNP would, apparently, recommend swapping rule from Westminster to seeking rule from Brussels.


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Subject: RE: BS: Catalonia: pros and cons of separation
From: Monique
Date: 05 Oct 17 - 02:51 AM

Spanish (Castilian) is the official language of all Spain whether the different autonomous communities have a different language of their own (Catalan and Aranese Occitan for Catalonia, Galician for Galice and Basque for the Basque Country) or not.
Spain used to be administratively divided in provinces that got much more autonomy after Franco's death.
Independence: Catalonia wouldn't be part of Spain but nor of the EU either (it'd take years), are they ready to coin their own money overnight... = big mess!


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Subject: RE: BS: Catalonia: pros and cons of separation
From: Kampervan
Date: 05 Oct 17 - 02:16 AM

The questions that you raise are good ones.

Who would be responsible for the defence of independent Catalonia? Could they be financially independent?

Also, as a general question, is the current tendency of regions wanting independence from the larger state of which they are currently a part a good thing?

Scotland from the UK, the UK from the EU, various central European countries have been split into smaller units. Surely this makes them a lot more vulnerable to potential aggressors?
We all know that the UN and NATO for all their good intentions, are pretty toothless in the face of actual aggression.

Maybe its because the present generation has never experienced something like World War two and don't appreciate just how easily things can go wrong.

It seems to me that we are exposing ourselves in a very dangerous way.


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Subject: BS: Catalonia: pros and cons of separation
From: Joe Offer
Date: 05 Oct 17 - 01:12 AM

I think I have a fair understanding of political trends in most European nations, but I've been to Spain only once and only to the northern part, and I can't say I understand it very well. I see in Wikipedia that Catalonia is an "autonomous community" of Spain. Its capital is Barcelona, and it has a population of 7.5 million. Its official languages are Catalan and Occitan, not Spanish. The area is highly industrialized and quite wealthy, so I can see how Catalonian independence might be harmful to Spain.
But what does Catalonia have to gain from separation? Do the separatists want to remain part of the European Union? How can it survive as an independent nation with a population of only 7.5 million? Is its economy diverse enough for it to be independent?
What is the history of Catalonian autonomy and of its off-and-on union with Spain? Are there other "autonomous communities" in Spain?
What is the political climate in Catalonia, and what is it in other areas of Spain?
-Joe-


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