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BS: Catalonia: pros and cons of separation

Nigel Parsons 18 Oct 17 - 06:13 AM
Steve Shaw 18 Oct 17 - 05:50 AM
Keith A of Hertford 18 Oct 17 - 04:59 AM
Nigel Parsons 18 Oct 17 - 03:23 AM
akenaton 18 Oct 17 - 03:02 AM
Steve Shaw 17 Oct 17 - 05:35 PM
Keith A of Hertford 17 Oct 17 - 09:54 AM
Iains 17 Oct 17 - 09:08 AM
Steve Shaw 17 Oct 17 - 04:23 AM
Keith A of Hertford 17 Oct 17 - 03:43 AM
Steve Shaw 16 Oct 17 - 06:44 PM
Steve Shaw 16 Oct 17 - 06:42 PM
Iains 16 Oct 17 - 05:07 PM
akenaton 16 Oct 17 - 04:36 PM
Steve Shaw 16 Oct 17 - 12:40 PM
akenaton 16 Oct 17 - 07:45 AM
Steve Shaw 16 Oct 17 - 07:16 AM
Nigel Parsons 16 Oct 17 - 07:00 AM
Keith A of Hertford 16 Oct 17 - 05:36 AM
Iains 16 Oct 17 - 04:03 AM
Steve Shaw 16 Oct 17 - 03:20 AM
Keith A of Hertford 16 Oct 17 - 03:15 AM
Steve Shaw 15 Oct 17 - 03:31 PM
Steve Shaw 15 Oct 17 - 03:30 PM
akenaton 15 Oct 17 - 03:28 PM
Iains 15 Oct 17 - 03:23 PM
Steve Shaw 15 Oct 17 - 02:23 PM
akenaton 15 Oct 17 - 01:49 PM
Keith A of Hertford 15 Oct 17 - 01:44 PM
Steve Shaw 15 Oct 17 - 01:35 PM
Steve Shaw 15 Oct 17 - 01:29 PM
bobad 15 Oct 17 - 01:06 PM
Nigel Parsons 15 Oct 17 - 11:01 AM
Iains 15 Oct 17 - 10:23 AM
akenaton 15 Oct 17 - 10:09 AM
Keith A of Hertford 15 Oct 17 - 07:22 AM
Allan Conn 15 Oct 17 - 07:03 AM
Steve Shaw 15 Oct 17 - 04:44 AM
Iains 15 Oct 17 - 04:03 AM
Steve Shaw 14 Oct 17 - 06:30 PM
Iains 14 Oct 17 - 03:45 PM
Nigel Parsons 14 Oct 17 - 02:50 PM
Nigel Parsons 14 Oct 17 - 02:43 PM
Keith A of Hertford 14 Oct 17 - 05:47 AM
Steve Shaw 13 Oct 17 - 03:17 PM
Iains 13 Oct 17 - 01:42 PM
Keith A of Hertford 13 Oct 17 - 12:47 PM
Steve Shaw 13 Oct 17 - 12:21 PM
Iains 13 Oct 17 - 12:05 PM
Steve Shaw 13 Oct 17 - 11:28 AM
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Subject: RE: BS: Catalonia: pros and cons of separation
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 18 Oct 17 - 06:13 AM

The question marks are being inserted ever since I updated my iPad to the latest IOS version. They replace every apostrophe and quote mark I try to use and trying to edit them out is useless. I really don?t know why I should have to explain these things, Nigel.

Have you tried hitting 'preview' under the reply box, and then editing as necessary within that box?

For some systems it may be necessary to ensure you're using a valid character for the apostrophe (a straight apostrophe rather than an 'inverted comma').
Any reasonably educated person should be able to find what the fault is, and correct it.

To miss-quote Wilde:
To make this error once is unfortunate. to continue doing so seems like carelessness!


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Subject: RE: BS: Catalonia: pros and cons of separation
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Oct 17 - 05:50 AM

Shut up. You are pointless.

The question marks are being inserted ever since I updated my iPad to the latest IOS version. They replace every apostrophe and quote mark I try to use and trying to edit them out is useless. I really don?t know why I should have to explain these things, Nigel.

Oh yes I do, as soon as I remember who I?m talking to...


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Subject: RE: BS: Catalonia: pros and cons of separation
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 Oct 17 - 04:59 AM

Your idiocy is crystal clear to all here bar two or three other fools.

None of us are fools, and you are unable to identify any "idiocy" in any post.

As ever you resort to abuse because you are utterly incapable of making a case or any kind of reply.


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Subject: RE: BS: Catalonia: pros and cons of separation
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 18 Oct 17 - 03:23 AM

Ake: There's no point getting shirty with him. As I quoted earlier, he has been very clear on the basis he uses for arguments:

From: Iains - PM
Date: 13 Oct 17 - 12:05 PM
. . .why do you continue to quote your opinions as though they are incontestable facts? You fool very few here.
From: Steve Shaw - PM
Date: 13 Oct 17 - 12:21 PM
Because that?s what I do. Live with it.


I love all these extra question marks he's throwing in, maybe he things he's The Riddler!


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Subject: RE: BS: Catalonia: pros and cons of separation
From: akenaton
Date: 18 Oct 17 - 03:02 AM

Answer the fucking Question!


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Subject: RE: BS: Catalonia: pros and cons of separation
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Oct 17 - 05:35 PM

Just go away, Keith. Your idiocy is crystal clear to all here bar two or three other fools. No games, Keith. I've picked up your ball and taken it home. You lose. Not interested. Go on, try me again to see if I am.


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Subject: RE: BS: Catalonia: pros and cons of separation
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Oct 17 - 09:54 AM

It is not playing "stupid games" to ask you to say exactly what it is that you claim is idiocy.
It is normal discussion.
Instead of calling people names, say what you disagree with and why.


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Subject: RE: BS: Catalonia: pros and cons of separation
From: Iains
Date: 17 Oct 17 - 09:08 AM

Two Catelonian Independence leaders jailed for sedition. This EU democracy is working rather well! It will hardly be oil on troubled waters. Austria taking a hike to the right, and Brexit marching blithely on. Greece and Cyprus not impressed. The course of European Unity seems to have found a few bumps in the road.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/catalonia-independence-leaders-jailed-spain-judge-sedition-jordi-sanchez-jordi-cu


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Subject: RE: BS: Catalonia: pros and cons of separation
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Oct 17 - 04:23 AM

Yes I can. Another thing I can do is avoid getting sucked into your stupid games. It is highly hypocritical of you, of all people, to defend the posts of a serially rude sniper. Let?s talk about issues around Catalonia.


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Subject: RE: BS: Catalonia: pros and cons of separation
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Oct 17 - 03:43 AM

You are an idiot and all bar about two of us know it full well.

Instead of puerile name calling, please identify errors in what has been posted.
Can you?


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Subject: RE: BS: Catalonia: pros and cons of separation
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Oct 17 - 06:44 PM

Damn that new Apple keyboard...


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Subject: RE: BS: Catalonia: pros and cons of separation
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Oct 17 - 06:42 PM

You are an idiot and all bar about two of us know it full well. Why don?t you try to focus on the issues? One fine day you?ll look over all your inane, insulting posts and wish to Christ that there was a delete button. Unfortunately for you, your insulting, puerile drivel will be there forever for all to see. Even if you studiously refrain from reading your own dismal posting history, you may be assured that there are plenty of us here who will be only too pleased to remind you. And everything here can be googled. Your stupidity is up here forever. If I were you, before you post anything else I?d have a long, hard think about the image of yourself that you?re propagating here. Friendly advice only.


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Subject: RE: BS: Catalonia: pros and cons of separation
From: Iains
Date: 16 Oct 17 - 05:07 PM

I see shaw is very good at quoting statistics. It is a shame he lacks the required skillset to generate any meaningful interpretation of them.
This has been pointed out on numerous occasions when he re-flogs this tired old hoss, but still he repeats his boring mantra in the mistaken belief that some totally misguided soul might believe him.
   To spell it out again in simple words for a simple soul. Of those that voted in the referendum the majority voted for out. That is all that we need to know.

" Belief is not predicated on fact. Reach a measured conclusion from reasonably well-verified facts. Don't go around believing. It's a bad idea, believe me."
Tis a crying shame the poor boy cannot act on his own words! Or is this the usual leftard tendency of"do as I say, not as I do!"


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Subject: RE: BS: Catalonia: pros and cons of separation
From: akenaton
Date: 16 Oct 17 - 04:36 PM

"If you really believe that we HAVE to leave, get behind the government who are representing a majority of the British electorate and show a bit of British unity"

I think it should have been obvious that I was referring to a majority of the electorate who could be arsed voting.


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Subject: RE: BS: Catalonia: pros and cons of separation
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Oct 17 - 12:40 PM

38% is not a majority of the electorate. 62% is a majority of the electorate who did not jump on board the leave bandwagon. Belief don't come into it. Belief is not predicated on fact. Reach a measured conclusion from reasonably well-verified facts. Don't go around believing. It's a bad idea, believe me.


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Subject: RE: BS: Catalonia: pros and cons of separation
From: akenaton
Date: 16 Oct 17 - 07:45 AM

" it hardly needs to be said. But we'll have to live with it, won't we, and see what happens now. The EU are folding their arms tightly and laughing their heads off at us. Doesn't augur well, does it?

But that is not what is happening, people like you and a majority of self serving MPs are making negotiations more difficult and the EU negotiators more stubborn.

If you really believe that we HAVE to leave, get behind the government who are representing a majority of the British electorate and show a bit of British unity.


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Subject: RE: BS: Catalonia: pros and cons of separation
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Oct 17 - 07:16 AM

I didn't say anything about retrospectively changing the rules. Don't put words in my mouth, please. Your agenda here should be to stick to the point. In fact, had different rules been in in place at the time of the last referendum, voting behaviour in several regards might have been modified. There's no point analysing the results according to rules that were not in place at the time. The main point about the last referendum is that 38% of the electorate voted to leave. Hardly an overwhelming appetite, it hardly needs to be said. But we'll have to live with it, won't we, and see what happens now. The EU are folding their arms tightly and laughing their heads off at us. Doesn't augur well, does it?


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Subject: RE: BS: Catalonia: pros and cons of separation
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 16 Oct 17 - 07:00 AM

From: Steve Shaw - PM
Date: 13 Oct 17 - 05:29 AM
Letís see: suppose the bar was set at 75% and that was the turnout. Letís say that the required majority was 60% and the result was akenatonís 61%. Thatís still well under half the electorate voting for the change. To ensure a majority of all those entitled to vote, which I would say is the minimum requirement to make an irreversible and highly significant change, a turnout of 75% would require a majority of just under 67% voting for the change. Thatís where I would set the bars. In those circumstances, no- one on the losing side would be able to claim no majority/mandate for change. One of the divisive elements would have been removed. Thatís a much better shot at real democracy, though I still donít believe in referendums anyway. Of course, I can see why leavers wouldnít have liked it.


It's interesting, this idea of retrospectively changing the rules, and retaining the status quo if a certain threshold isn't reached.

Of course, if the 2016 referendum were revised in this strange fashion, we would need to also look at the 1975 referendum which bound us to the EU. That was a 67.23% 'Yes' vote, on the basis of a 64.2% turnout.
So only 43.2% of the eligible electorate voted to bind us to the EU.

That's it, either we stick with the results of the recent referendum and we're out of the EU,
Or, we review (and overturn) both referendums and are out of the EU.


"Simples"


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Subject: RE: BS: Catalonia: pros and cons of separation
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Oct 17 - 05:36 AM

No, it isnít all I can manage. Itís just that I really canít be arsed to play your extremely silly games.

Of course it is Steve!
You could easily demolish our logic, but you choose not to.


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Subject: RE: BS: Catalonia: pros and cons of separation
From: Iains
Date: 16 Oct 17 - 04:03 AM

Anyway to get back on the topic of this thread and away from the resident buffoon who has a problem separating fact from fantasy.

An appended interesting analysis:


https://capx.co/catalonia-demonstrates-the-folly-of-a-united-states-of-europe/


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Subject: RE: BS: Catalonia: pros and cons of separation
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Oct 17 - 03:20 AM

No, it isnít all I can manage. Itís just that I really canít be arsed to play your extremely silly games.


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Subject: RE: BS: Catalonia: pros and cons of separation
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Oct 17 - 03:15 AM

Steve,
Stupid post, Keith.

....but you are unable to actually challenge a word of it.


You are being stupid and insulting

....but you are unable to actually challenge a word of it.

Just saying "stupid" is not an argument, but it is all you can manage.


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Subject: RE: BS: Catalonia: pros and cons of separation
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Oct 17 - 03:31 PM

That was targeted at Iains.


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Subject: RE: BS: Catalonia: pros and cons of separation
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Oct 17 - 03:30 PM

You are being stupid and insulting and all bar about two people here realise it. Live with it. You don't deserve a response.


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Subject: RE: BS: Catalonia: pros and cons of separation
From: akenaton
Date: 15 Oct 17 - 03:28 PM

"The minute we walk away the minute the bad news is stemmed. We'll be able to paint the EU as a totally rigid and unreasonable organisation."

We don't need to paint them, its been obvious for months they are attempting to have the democratic will of the people reversed.
They are and have always been a "totally ridged and unreasonable organisation".....undemocratic and corrupt could also be added to their CV


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Subject: RE: BS: Catalonia: pros and cons of separation
From: Iains
Date: 15 Oct 17 - 03:23 PM

"Too many people did not take part"

Well bless my soul! Shaw has created a new voting block. In my book apathy deserves everything that comes its way. A vibrant democracy requires that all those enfranchised act, when given the opportunity.

"The consequences of voting to leave are not the same as voting for staying. Therefore it should be quite hard to get enough votes to leave. Leaving is a far more serious proposition than staying. I'd say two-thirds of three-quarters minimum."

Going to bed at night is not the same as getting up in the morning.
WOW. Hows about that then. What a stunning deduction. Just how it contributes to the discussion escapes me. "Making it hard to get enough votes to leave" is blatant interference in the democratic process. Is this a cunning wheeze from comrade corbyn?(whose closest advisors have been subject to ongoing investigation by the security services)
We of the ruling party are quite happy with a simple majority vote.
How they voted in Timbuktu, or that they were away on a package holiday, or simply could not be bothered to vote is of zero interest. Squealing "not fair" after the event does not change the outcome. Those that had the most votes won, those that had the least votes lost. Simples, but leftards have a problem grasping the simplest mathematical concepts.
The only way to change the voting requirements is for parliament to pass the necessary legislation. Shaw's opinions in this matter, as in many others, counts for nought.


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Subject: RE: BS: Catalonia: pros and cons of separation
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Oct 17 - 02:23 PM

Stupid post, Keith.

Another referendum would not be a second referendum in that the question would be very different. Actually, the last referendum was the second referendum, the first having been held in 1975. If there is another one the question would be asked in light of what's gone on since the 2016 one. A different question entirely. However, I don't think there'll be one anyway. There isn't much doubt as to which way it would go if it did happen.

In the last couple of days we've had this groundswell over no-deal. Be in no doubt as to what the brexiteers intend by this. They know that every day bad news is piling on bad news. Over the next eighteen months this is going to radically change the country's opinion on the desirability of brexit. The minute we walk away the minute the bad news is stemmed. We'll be able to paint the EU as a totally rigid and unreasonable organisation. It's a ploy to keep brexit on the rails.


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Subject: RE: BS: Catalonia: pros and cons of separation
From: akenaton
Date: 15 Oct 17 - 01:49 PM

The consequences of a second vote would have to be a "best of three" vote then farce.
The consequences of staying in the EU are manifold the organisation is disintegrating and even if it survives on paper the strains of unregulated immigration and the political movements towards nationalism will make the object of "Ever Closer Union" and "Free Movement of Labour " will be unattainable.

Better out now while the waters are relatively calm.


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Subject: RE: BS: Catalonia: pros and cons of separation
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Oct 17 - 01:44 PM

Steve, why do you keep on about "an overwhelming appetite for leaving the EU?"

The UKIP victory in the EU elections was proof that a significant proportion of the people wanted it, justifying a referendum. All parties agreed that.
The referendum proved that it was a majority view.

Generally I disagree with referendums

Strange that you never mentioned that in all the discussions we had in the run up to the referendum.
Only after you lost it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Catalonia: pros and cons of separation
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Oct 17 - 01:35 PM

A two-thirds majority of a minimum three-quarters turnout is what I meant.


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Subject: RE: BS: Catalonia: pros and cons of separation
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Oct 17 - 01:29 PM

The obstinate fact is that the turnout was way too low for you to conclude that there was an overwhelming appetite for leaving the EU. Even if every person in that EU election had voted UKIP, it still would not have proved an overwhelming appetite. Too many people did not take part. Allan, I don't claim every non-voter for "my side." But if any of those non-voters had felt an ardent and vital need for us to leave the EU, they would have voted. But for some reason they didn't. That suggests something less than an overwhelming appetite. Certainly, 38% of those entitled to vote does not demonstrate an overwhelming appetite.

Generally I disagree with referendums because, in a democracy, we elect politicians to know stuff better than we do and make informed decisions better than we can. Trying to dress up the brexit vote as a simple are we in/are we out vote, is just disingenuous. The repercussions either way are manifold and complex. I want people who know those potential repercussions making the crucial decisions, not a largely ignorant electorate whose only qualification is that they're over 18. Conversely, lest I'm accused of being patronising or whatever, I wouldn't want Philip Hammond plastering my bedroom ceiling or Jeremy Corbyn fitting my kitchen. In the case of Catalonia I can't see any other way out of this now bar a referendum. If I lived there I'd want independence. But cutting corners by proposing a leading question or conducting a campaign full of lies will make things worse.

The point about setting bars high is fairly straightforward. Say Catalonia voted to leave Spain, then left. Over the next few years there would be severe repercussions regarding the EU and trade with other nations, some of whom may have been unsympathetic. Spain would create difficulties and it would soon become clear that the move was irreversible. But say Catalonia voted to stay. Over the next few years there would be rumblings about another vote. In terms of democracy, and the relative cheapness of organising one, there would be nothing wrong with peaceful campaigning for a second referendum, especially if things were getting tougher and if the first vote had been close. Having a change of mind would be relatively easy to act on. But once you're out, the chances are that changing your mind would be futile. The consequences of voting to leave are not the same as voting for staying. Therefore it should be quite hard to get enough votes to leave. Leaving is a far more serious proposition than staying. I'd say two-thirds of three-quarters minimum.


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Subject: RE: BS: Catalonia: pros and cons of separation
From: bobad
Date: 15 Oct 17 - 01:06 PM

Don't sweat it Nigel, we've been down this road with Shaw many times before. It comes when he is contradicted or shown to be wrong about something that he starts with the name calling, accusations of stalking and idle threats. He's become somewhat of a running joke among some of us here.


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Subject: RE: BS: Catalonia: pros and cons of separation
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 15 Oct 17 - 11:01 AM

From: Steve Shaw - PM
Date: 15 Oct 17 - 04:44 AM

Let him try me. And try to go whole day without hurling childish insults.


This could get interesting. I don't deal in "childish insults" although I know that Steve Shaw does.

As to his threat of 'keeping an archive' the whole of the Mudcat remains as an archive, which he is welcome to trawl for supportive evidence.
I merely point out his errors when they appear on a thread in which I am already taking an interest.
'Stalking' would involve seeking out comments by that person, in order to attack them. I'm sure there must be many threads which Steve Shaw contributes to, but which I have never even bothered to open.

I believe he must be bothered by my insisting on fact based argument, rather than personal assumptions. This was just the way he appeared to argue, until he decided to clarify the matter, as I quoted yesterday:

From: Iains - PM
Date: 13 Oct 17 - 12:05 PM
. . .why do you continue to quote your opinions as though they are incontestable facts? You fool very few here.
From: Steve Shaw - PM
Date: 13 Oct 17 - 12:21 PM
Because thatís what I do. Live with it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Catalonia: pros and cons of separation
From: Iains
Date: 15 Oct 17 - 10:23 AM

An interesting analysis of a referendum. The only comment I would make is that legislation should have been passed to make the result binding instead of advisory, as far as brexit was concerned.Referendum


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Subject: RE: BS: Catalonia: pros and cons of separation
From: akenaton
Date: 15 Oct 17 - 10:09 AM

Nigel is not a stalker, merely showing where Steve is being "wrong headed". If he was not regularly checked by logic, people might start to believe his myth spinning.

Regarding stalking in general, though I don't keep a record, I'm sure I could put together a large portfolio of Steve's "interventions".

I listened to John McDonell today being interviewed by Andrew Marr
When asked by Marr what Labour would do if they were given power today, John came up with the wheeze of telling the EU negotiators that "Britain would never walk away without a deal".
The second biggest suicide note in British history???

Does anyone seriously think that is a sustainable position? It is more or less Cameron"s position when he went grovelling before the referendum.

There is absolutely no doubt in my mind that the EU will never give us any sort of help in the form of an advantageous trade deal.
If we leave the whole edifice crumbles, the pigs are out of their sty, the cold winter is upon them.
We must stand on our own feet, and at a later date Scotland too must assert its sovereignty ....but the social and economic system must be radically reformed to make sure the people of Scotland at all levels benefit socially. Economically we should appreciate that the days of borrowing or printing money are behind us, it will be noses the the grindstone, but at least it will be British and Scottish grindstones.

Immigration should be cut dramatically, work training programmes instigated, a life on benefits outlawed, compulsory work experience for all school leavers, a proper grading system and degree choice for further education and university.....no more degrees that are of no value to the recipients or the country.


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Subject: RE: BS: Catalonia: pros and cons of separation
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Oct 17 - 07:22 AM

Steve,
UKIP easily won that election even though many leavers do not vote UKIP. Me for one.
So, that was indeed a clear vote against the EU in 2014 and the 2016 referendum proved the case that a majority want out.


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Subject: RE: BS: Catalonia: pros and cons of separation
From: Allan Conn
Date: 15 Oct 17 - 07:03 AM

I agree that there is no need for name calling and actually I normally agree with much of what you say Steve - but not on this. The idea that putting such a high benchmark on any change would end any divisiveness just doesn't work for me. Treating non voters as if they were voting for the status-quo would just cause more division in that those voting for change would feel disenfranchised. Non voters in a proper referendum are either not interested, are not able to vote in that they may even be dead, or perhaps they genuinely either don't care either way or don't know. It is not a vote for the status quo though.

I don't see what alternatives there are to a referendum. The only other way is surely the parliamentary process and that is even less democratic. For instance in the Scottish parliament there is a Yes majority but it would not be democratic for them to declare independence as that Yes majority is not mirrored by the electorate or polls where Yes is still on about 46% only. So yes they have a clear mandate for the principle of having another vote from the electorate and from the votes in the parliament itself but that is only for asking the question in a referendum.


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Subject: RE: BS: Catalonia: pros and cons of separation
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Oct 17 - 04:44 AM

Let him try me. And try to go whole day without hurling childish insults.


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Subject: RE: BS: Catalonia: pros and cons of separation
From: Iains
Date: 15 Oct 17 - 04:03 AM

Any more of it and Iíll complain, and I know Iíll be taken seriously.
Stupid boy!!!


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Subject: RE: BS: Catalonia: pros and cons of separation
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Oct 17 - 06:30 PM

So you think that a far-less-than-40% turnout, many of whom did not vote UKIP lest we forget, represents an overwhelming appetite for leaving the EU, do you, Keith? Your attempt at obfuscating waffle, a well-known tactic of yours, canít conceal the fact that there was NO OVERWHELMING APPETITE FOR LEAVING THE EU. I invite you to look up ďoverwhelmingĒ in the nearest dictionary.

Youíre wasting your time, Nigel. Targeting an individual obsessively, which is, sadly, precisely what youíre doing, is stalking. Your behaviour is a classic example. You are doing far more stalking than discussing. I see your posts but I donít read them any more. Try sticking to the issues. Youíre making a fool of yourself. Please take this as a polite early warning that your recent posting behaviour is being archived. Any more of it and Iíll complain, and I know Iíll be taken seriously. Take two steps back, Nigel.


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Subject: RE: BS: Catalonia: pros and cons of separation
From: Iains
Date: 14 Oct 17 - 03:45 PM

The problem is not going to go away. In fact escalation seems almost inevitable.

civil war wounds reopened


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Subject: RE: BS: Catalonia: pros and cons of separation
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 14 Oct 17 - 02:50 PM

From: Steve Shaw - PM
Date: 13 Oct 17 - 11:28 AM
"Do you want Catalonia to become an independent state in the form of a republic?"
That is a leading question by any measure. Try this:
What options would the two boxes give?
Your wording of the question precludes a simple yes/no answer, so it
ďThere is an opportunity for Catalonia either to remain a part of Spain or to become an independent state in the form of a republic. Please state your preference by ticking one of the two boxes below...Ē

also risks that the two options against the boxes will also be subject to bias.

You need to think these things through a little before posting you suggestions.


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Subject: RE: BS: Catalonia: pros and cons of separation
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 14 Oct 17 - 02:43 PM

At last, an admission from Steve Shaw that he posts his personal opinions as facts:

From: Iains - PM
Date: 13 Oct 17 - 12:05 PM
. . .why do you continue to quote your opinions as though they are incontestable facts? You fool very few here.
From: Steve Shaw - PM
Date: 13 Oct 17 - 12:21 PM
Because thatís what I do. Live with it.


I think that sums up (perfectly) Steve Shaw's view on what can be considered as reasonable debate.

As the Americans would have it 'Nuff said"


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Subject: RE: BS: Catalonia: pros and cons of separation
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 Oct 17 - 05:47 AM

Steve, the turnout was 36 per cent, up from 34.7 per cent in 2009.
The Independent, opening passage,
"Nigel Farage inflicted another body blow on the three main political parties on Sunday night as Ukip scored a stunning victory in the European Parliament elections.
The anti-EU party dramatically built on its success in the local elections in England last Thursday when the results of the Euro poll on the same day were announced. A jubilant Mr Farage hailed the outcome as ďan earthquakeĒ because ďnever before in the history of British†politics has a party seen to be an insurgent party ever topped the†polls in a†national electionĒ."
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/european-elections-results-2014-sweeping-gains-for-nigel-farages-ukip-deal-further-body-blow-to-main-9434042.html


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Subject: RE: BS: Catalonia: pros and cons of separation
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Oct 17 - 03:17 PM

And what was the turnout for those EU elections, Keith?

Grow up, Iains. Youíre no Teribus and never will be. Your endeavours, however noble you think they are, are secondary to the fact that you are generally extremely ill-mannered and delusional. Just my opinion, as ever. Or IS it a fact...


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Subject: RE: BS: Catalonia: pros and cons of separation
From: Iains
Date: 13 Oct 17 - 01:42 PM

"Your own way of addressing issues here is hardly beyond reproach, is it?"

But I do endeavour to differentiate between fact and my opinions. Also I try to give links to support my arguments.
A pity you do not do the same. After all you no longer strut up and down the classroom on mudcat, much as you may think that you do.


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Subject: RE: BS: Catalonia: pros and cons of separation
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Oct 17 - 12:47 PM

Steve,
There was no overwhelming appetite for the UK to leave the EU.

Yes there was. UKIP actually won the EU elections and the parties all offered a referendum for fear they would win the general election too if they alone promised one.

Spain would have disrupted the Catalonian referendum however the question was put.


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Subject: RE: BS: Catalonia: pros and cons of separation
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Oct 17 - 12:21 PM

Because thatís what I do. Live with it. Iím not going to change the habit of a lifetime because of some ill-mannered Johnny-Come-Lately such as yourself. I suggest you debate the issues and save your bad-tempered sniping for your mates down the pub. Your own way of addressing issues here is hardly beyond reproach, is it?


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Subject: RE: BS: Catalonia: pros and cons of separation
From: Iains
Date: 13 Oct 17 - 12:05 PM

"Ours was a referendum over a ďdivisionĒ that didnít need a referendum to fix. There was no overwhelming appetite for the UK to leave the EU. Just 38% of the electorate turning out to vote leave after being bombarded with outright xenophobia and racism for months is testament to that."
why do you continue to quote your opinions as though they are incontestable facts? You fool very few here.


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Subject: RE: BS: Catalonia: pros and cons of separation
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Oct 17 - 11:28 AM

"Do you want Catalonia to become an independent state in the form of a republic?"

That is a leading question by any measure. Try this:

ďThere is an opportunity for Catalonia either to remain a part of Spain or to become an independent state in the form of a republic. Please state your preference by ticking one of the two boxes below...Ē

Make no bones about it, if I were a Catalonian living in Barcelona I would campaign and vote for Catalan independence (when not at the Nou Camp). But either you do it properly or you just store up trouble for the future. Itís hard enough to avoid that as it is.


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