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BS: Post Brexit life in the UK

Steve Shaw 15 Dec 17 - 06:11 PM
Donuel 15 Dec 17 - 05:34 PM
Stanron 15 Dec 17 - 04:31 PM
Steve Shaw 15 Dec 17 - 03:14 PM
DMcG 15 Dec 17 - 03:04 PM
Stanron 15 Dec 17 - 01:31 PM
Backwoodsman 15 Dec 17 - 01:20 PM
Iains 15 Dec 17 - 01:18 PM
Keith A of Hertford 15 Dec 17 - 01:01 PM
Jim Carroll 15 Dec 17 - 12:38 PM
Keith A of Hertford 15 Dec 17 - 11:20 AM
Backwoodsman 15 Dec 17 - 10:27 AM
Jim Carroll 15 Dec 17 - 10:20 AM
Steve Shaw 15 Dec 17 - 09:37 AM
Keith A of Hertford 15 Dec 17 - 09:04 AM
Steve Shaw 15 Dec 17 - 08:53 AM
Iains 15 Dec 17 - 08:53 AM
Keith A of Hertford 15 Dec 17 - 08:43 AM
Stanron 15 Dec 17 - 06:58 AM
Jim Carroll 14 Dec 17 - 08:56 AM
DMcG 14 Dec 17 - 07:05 AM
Nigel Parsons 14 Dec 17 - 06:51 AM
Dave the Gnome 14 Dec 17 - 06:20 AM
Backwoodsman 14 Dec 17 - 04:29 AM
Jim Carroll 14 Dec 17 - 03:23 AM
Dave the Gnome 14 Dec 17 - 03:09 AM
Backwoodsman 14 Dec 17 - 02:34 AM
Backwoodsman 14 Dec 17 - 02:33 AM
Steve Shaw 13 Dec 17 - 07:25 PM
peteaberdeen 13 Dec 17 - 05:41 PM
Steve Shaw 13 Dec 17 - 05:25 PM
Steve Shaw 13 Dec 17 - 05:24 PM
DMcG 13 Dec 17 - 05:05 PM
Raggytash 13 Dec 17 - 04:48 PM
Jim Carroll 13 Dec 17 - 01:18 PM
Dave the Gnome 13 Dec 17 - 10:20 AM
Dave the Gnome 13 Dec 17 - 08:39 AM
Jim Carroll 13 Dec 17 - 08:22 AM
Jim Carroll 13 Dec 17 - 05:55 AM
DMcG 12 Dec 17 - 08:31 AM
Jim Carroll 12 Dec 17 - 08:22 AM
Keith A of Hertford 12 Dec 17 - 08:17 AM
Backwoodsman 12 Dec 17 - 07:27 AM
DMcG 12 Dec 17 - 07:15 AM
Keith A of Hertford 12 Dec 17 - 06:26 AM
Jim Carroll 12 Dec 17 - 04:44 AM
Keith A of Hertford 12 Dec 17 - 04:27 AM
Dave the Gnome 12 Dec 17 - 03:55 AM
Raggytash 12 Dec 17 - 03:50 AM
Dave the Gnome 12 Dec 17 - 03:50 AM
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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Dec 17 - 06:11 PM

The EU can't be viewed as a democracy in the same way as the member states because it isn't a state. In effect, it's a bureaucracy that sets rules and regulations according to the wishes of its member states (each of which has a veto over major decisions, your European army being a case in point). The European Commission does not pass laws or impose rules on member states. It can only act on the mandate of member states, each of which has a minister in the Council of Ministers and each of which elects MEPs to the European Parliament. These are the bodies that make EU laws. Many laws, in order to be passed, require a majority of at least 18 states with at least two-thirds of the EU population. We have a big say as we have 13% of the EU population. The vast majority of EU are laws that the UK overwhelmingly agrees with in any case. Major issues such as the formation of an EU army are vulnerable to veto by just one state. That's why there's no EU army: the UK has vetoed it. One that the UK "lost" was the EU law restricting bankers' bonuses. Poor George Osborne was beaten on that one. What a shame, eh?

If there's a democratic deficit in the EU, it's driven in part by people of your ilk, Stanron, what with you lot constantly moaning about unelected bureaucrats in Brussels forcing laws on us, gravy trains (you could usefully ask your mate Farage about that), ever-closer union, United States of Europe, etc. No wonder people listening to all that ignorant claptrap don't bother to turn out to vote in European elections. That's where the democratic deficit truly is: peddle nonsense to the electorate in order to turn them off and keep them ignorant. Of course, you're experts at it. After all, you did precisely the same thing in the referendum campaign, the event with the biggest democratic deficit this country has ever seen.


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Donuel
Date: 15 Dec 17 - 05:34 PM

In America they are calling the impending firing of our Secretary of State Rex Tillerson "Rexit"

Trump hates diplomacy. He wants to attack Korea preferably after they seem to attack first.


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Stanron
Date: 15 Dec 17 - 04:31 PM

I am afraid that what you detested in Portugal, Spain, Greece, Romania, Hungary, Bulgaria and the Balkan states will be at the heart of the future EU. There will be the
apparency of Democracy. Everyone will get to vote, but only the select few at the top will really control what happens. No one votes them in so no one can vote them out. You said "The EU insists on democracy in its member states, on human rights and on the rule of law". They get that in the member states but not in the EU that sits over the member states. All the MEPs can vote on is proposals from the Commission. The Commission are not elected and cannot be voted out. They are insulated from any kind of democracy. Only the Commission decides overall policy for the EU. At it's heart the EU is not a democracy. It's a sham democracy.


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Dec 17 - 03:14 PM

What complete nonsense, Stanron. The EU insists on democracy in its member states, on human rights and on the rule of law. Before they joined the EU, many countries, in your lifetime and mine, had none of that. Portugal, Spain, Greece, Romania, Hungary, Bulgaria and the Balkan states were all ruled by regimes that you and I would have detested and which are never coming back - because they are members of the EU.


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 15 Dec 17 - 03:04 PM

An old article for a different trade deal, but it would be relevant if we went for a 'Canada plus plus plus' deal. It raises lots of problems about sovereignty if companies can sue governments and some other court is higher than the government concerned.


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Stanron
Date: 15 Dec 17 - 01:31 PM

I am not opposed to an EU army, or closer political and economic unity, so long as the UK is not involved. Europe, historically, has had a predilection to more totalitarian forms of government than the UK. Let them get on with it. Looking at the way the EU has evolved it may well turn into something as democratic as the Catholic Church. There, there is democracy for the Cardinals but the less informed are kept away from decision making. The EU has an apparency of democracy but the EU Parliament only gets to vote on what the top few ex member state rulers tell them they can vote on. Look at these top few ex state presidents, opposition leaders and prime ministers as an equivalent to the Papacy's Cardinals and the picture might become clear. The EU might end up as democratic as China is right now.

We are well out of it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 15 Dec 17 - 01:20 PM

Whether our governments chose to challenge the EU or not is completely irrelevant - the U.K. Parliamentary Sovereignty has always existed, it is the foundation of our own democracy, and a founding principle of tHe European Union.

I repeat...get an education, you thick, feeble-minded wazzock. I used to defend you when Musket called you TC. On reflection, and in view of the ludicrous drivel you've posted on this thread and the Damien Green thread, as well as a great many others, I'm persuaded to agree with him.


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 15 Dec 17 - 01:18 PM

We have always had parliamentary sovereignty, the principle of the sovereignty of individual member-nations' parliaments taking precedence over any collective sovereignty of the EU is one of the founding principles of the EU.

I think the Lisbon Treaty punched a few holes in that mistaken idea.
Maybe you are the wazzock and feeble minded and in need of an education.


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Dec 17 - 01:01 PM

When heve the British people ever been asked to vote on Europe other than the referendum which was sold on the idea of getting rid of foreigners?

Our ruling elite never gave them the chance.
Then UKIP came along, won the EU election and promised a referendum if they won the general election.
Suddenly the Establishment parties agreed to offer one too.

All the economic institutions warned against leaving and some are now pointing out how right they were

Most of their predictions have proved wrong. They are all Establishment bodies, supporting the Establishment determination to keep us in.

Gibberish when you remember the poodle like behavior of Britain towards the Us - including and especially the racist and misogynist thug who now occupies the White House

We are not a member of the US.


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Dec 17 - 12:38 PM

"Not on Europe."
Wha????
Don't understand that at all
When heve the British people ever been asked to vote on Europe other than the referendum which was sold on the idea of getting rid of foreigners?
All the economic institutions warned against leaving and some are now pointing out how right they were
Weren't they just?
"Leavers believe in sovereignty of our Parliament, but not when Parliament demands to give that away."
Gibberish when you remember the poodle like behavior of Britain towards the Us - including and especially the racist and misogynist thug who now occupies the White House
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Dec 17 - 11:20 AM

Up to now the people have been very pro- the ruling elite - go look at how they vote

Not on Europe.

Thwey voted for Brexit because the ruling elite persuaded them

The ruling elite, barring a few renegades, tried very hard to persuade them to vote Remain.

BWM,
We have always had parliamentary sovereignty,

No. Most of our laws were made in Brussels.
Our Parliamentarians never rocked the boat by challenging anything.


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 15 Dec 17 - 10:27 AM

"The Establishment did not care about Parliamentary Sovereignty when Brussels made our laws, but now they demand it to thwart what their electorate want."

We have always had parliamentary sovereignty, the principle of the sovereignty of individual member-nations' parliaments taking precedence over any collective sovereignty of the EU is one of the founding principles of the EU.

Get an education, you thick, feeble-minded wazzock.


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Dec 17 - 10:20 AM

"The ruling elite were always pro EU.
That was why the people demanded a referendum."
Utter nonsense
Up to now the people have been very pro- the ruling elite - go look at how they vote
Thwey voted for Brexit because the ruling elite persuaded them that foreigners were taking their jobs - a major factor in the Brexit referendum
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Dec 17 - 09:37 AM

Well I guess that the good ship UK will just float out into the Sargasso Sea then, Keith.


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Dec 17 - 09:04 AM

But we're going to get one now.

No, they are.


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Dec 17 - 08:53 AM

Well, Stanron, the irony is that there WILL be a European army, there WILL be more fiscal uniformity and there WILL be moves to a closer union - because we're leaving. Those things could not happen with us as a member. In fact, we alone have thwarted plans for that army. We have the veto you mentioned. We won't have it any more though. Dunno about you, but the last thing I want to see is a European army. But we're going to get one now.


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Iains
Date: 15 Dec 17 - 08:53 AM

Stanron. A very accurate summary!


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Dec 17 - 08:43 AM

The ruling elite were always pro EU.
That was why the people demanded a referendum.
The Establishment did not care about Parliamentary Sovereignty when Brussels made our laws, but now they demand it to thwart what their electorate want.

Leavers believe in sovereignty of our Parliament, but not when Parliament demands to give that away.


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Stanron
Date: 15 Dec 17 - 06:58 AM

Of course Brexit will happen. The UK was always going to veto a United States of Europe, closer political and financial uniformity and a European Army. The down side of the UK leaving would be the loss of it's financial contribution but, as we can all see, nothing was allowed to progress until a financial deal was done. Now the EU can continue down it's ideologically preferred path unopposed by it's second largest money source. The smaller EU members can now be individually bullied into accepting closer political convergence as they no longer have adequate financial clout. The EU has to put on a show of being tough and in control but the truth is they will bend over backwards to see us gone.

Merry Mithras.


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Dec 17 - 08:56 AM

"I think you should both prepare to be disappointed."
As long as they're not feeling as disappointed as you lot must be feeling this morning
A second referendum has already been mooted.... surely nobody will support a rerun of this turkey!!
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 14 Dec 17 - 07:05 AM

While most commentators are saying this amendment is a boost for a softer Brexit I fear, as I indicated below, that makes a 'No' vote more likely which could crash us into a hard Brexit. The Polish MEP saying we have to have the vote before 18 October 2018 is making a similar point.


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 14 Dec 17 - 06:51 AM

From: peteaberdeen - PM
Date: 13 Dec 17 - 05:41 PM
brexit? not going to happen

From: Steve Shaw - PM
Date: 13 Dec 17 - 07:25 PM
I have a feeling that it'll be fudged out of existence.


I think you should both prepare to be disappointed.


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 14 Dec 17 - 06:20 AM

:-D


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 14 Dec 17 - 04:29 AM

DtG - if I told you what I really think about the bunch of propagandised, Daily-Shit-Rag-reader meat-heads who have dropped us all in this steaming, festering pile of ordure, I'd be thrown off the forum.

So I'll just stay cool.... :-)


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Dec 17 - 03:23 AM

Time for another referendum and/or General Election, I would say
A nasty case of thieves falling out that nobody can afford
Not been a bad week so far, with this and the Alabama Showdown - maybe you7 can't fool all of the people some of the time
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 14 Dec 17 - 03:09 AM

Come on BWM, tell us what you really think :-)

Nice to see the party of the rich and powerful falling into such disarray. If it wasn't such a serious matter it would be laughable.

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 14 Dec 17 - 02:34 AM

Xenophobes, for gawd's sake!


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 14 Dec 17 - 02:33 AM

Right back at the start - when Camoron, Bozo, Farrarse, and The Lying Scottish Viper shat their boxers and ran away after they "won" the referendum, I predicted that Brexit will never actually happen. I believed then, as I believe now, that the Tory Government would go through the motions of 'negotiating' our exit, but would try to do it in a way that would give them a get-out without actually committing political suicide - hence their refusal to make BrexShit a Cross-Party project, because they would lose control of its outcome.

I still live in hope that this will be the outcome. Not for myself, but for my children, who don't deserve to have their lives ruined by the imbecility of a bunch of feeble-minded xenophobic and racists, who don't have even the intellectual capacity to know when they're best-off.


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Dec 17 - 07:25 PM

I have a feeling that it'll be fudged out of existence.


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: peteaberdeen
Date: 13 Dec 17 - 05:41 PM

brexit? not going to happen


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Dec 17 - 05:25 PM

...so it might as well be me.


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Dec 17 - 05:24 PM

Some twat's bound to claim 2000...


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 13 Dec 17 - 05:05 PM

I am gwtting too much of a political junkie I fear: I was watching the live reports. The Sun reporter tweeted this: :Tortured Vicky ford on verge of tears wavering between the two lobbies. Chancellor scoops her into no. Defence secretary on whipping duty cajoling abstainers"

What? An MP unsure how so vote the chancellor decides he wants two votes and pulls her his way?


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 13 Dec 17 - 04:48 PM

Ooops, seems the Government are at odds with each other.

Ooops


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Dec 17 - 01:18 PM

Ructions at Number Ten - Tory rebels threaten to vote with Labour tonight over Brexit, demanding a final vote in exiting Europe
Horrors of horrors - Nigel the Newt Farrago makes a scathing attack on May at the EU
Something rotten in the state of Little England, I would say
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 Dec 17 - 10:20 AM

Well, put a beret on me and call me Pierre...

Express backtracks on Brexit

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 Dec 17 - 08:39 AM

It will be interesting to see how the DUP will vote on the deal. With the party who bribed them with lots of our money or with their local electorate who are firmly pro-European.

Interesting times.

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Dec 17 - 08:22 AM

In the face of a possible defeat in the Commons, 'May or May Not' has conceded that they will have the right of a final vote before Brexit is finally agreed
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Dec 17 - 05:55 AM

The EU has warned that future negotiations could be cancelled if there is any attempt at "reneging or backsliding"
They said that the agreements need to be made "Davis-proof" if work is to proceed
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 12 Dec 17 - 08:31 AM

my prediction EU reaction to Davis' comments on Sunday seem to be as I said I would behave.

This is a guardian report but it was also diacussed in the House of Commons today.


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Dec 17 - 08:22 AM

"and everything will be lovely..."
More bad news from the front on this one
A 3% plus leap in inflation has guaranteed a rise in prices and a drop in the standard of living
Irish Banks have presented a report showing the adverse effect Brexit is having on Trade with other countries
What with this and the border issue, Britain is rapidly becoming the bad neighbour of Europe
Maybe thman who wrote, "Good walls make good neighbours", had it about right!
"A mere 1% majority is all they need."
Ten years ago it was 90+% - a pretty fair assesment of how things are moving
If it had moved faster, there wouldn't have been the need for so many body bags.
It is an armed and aggressively sectarian group that has kept the Six Counties intact with laws, economic repression, unfair voting systems and triumphalist threatening marches
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Dec 17 - 08:17 AM

I am not at all confident that they will get the best possible deal for us.


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 12 Dec 17 - 07:27 AM

Because, post-Brexit, the unicorns will be here and everything will be lovely...


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: DMcG
Date: 12 Dec 17 - 07:15 AM

So following that up, Keith, if you believe the negotiating team are poor now, what gives you confidence they will be better negotiating trade deals post Brexit?


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Dec 17 - 06:26 AM

Go look at the name of the Tory Party Keith - The Conservative and Unionist Party
It has written Ireland into its constitution


And Scotland, but they are both free to leave if they want to go.
A mere 1% majority is all they need.

I can't wait for NI to go, and that is true for most people here.


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Dec 17 - 04:44 AM

"Same old lie. Britain does not want NI. "
Go look at the name of the Tory Party Keith - The Conservative and Unionist Party
It has written Ireland into its constitution
Britain believed Ireland had a right to self determination by selecting six counties which would give it the social and cutrural mix t wanted
If iy had believed in self detrmination, the whole of Ireland would have been given the right to choose
It's like letting the wealthiest English South East decide what happens to Britain
Partition has sweet FA to do with free choice
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Dec 17 - 04:27 AM

Jim,
Because Britain is still clinging onto that country as a legacy of Empire,

Same old lie. Britain does not want NI. It is a millstone on our necks and a hole in our purse.
But, we believe in their right to self determination. Why can't you just persuade them to vote to leave?

DMcG, I agree that are negotiators have been poor. I am not sure they are even committed to leaving.


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 12 Dec 17 - 03:55 AM

I am sure someone will find some to fit their agenda, Raggy. Anyone taking odds on who it may be? :-)

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Raggytash
Date: 12 Dec 17 - 03:50 AM

Even America has doubts on the wisdom of Brexit.

Rand Report

Do any reports actually say we'd be better off outside the EU, apart from soundbites from MP's ......... any actual reports?


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Subject: RE: BS: Post Brexit life in the UK
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 12 Dec 17 - 03:50 AM

Grin :-)

DtG


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